Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:28 pm

Hi 1ww,
Zech 14 refers to half of the city of Jerusalem going into exile just before Christ's return, but it is not clear if this exile is from God or just the AC's doing.


The verse says go forth into capitivity.....it doesn't mean that they will necessarily leave Israel. Perhaps they are taken to prison camps there in Israel, maybe within Jerusalem itself.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:25 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:I haven't watched the video in a long time, but doesn't Chaim Richman say the holy of holies is where the dome of the rock now stands? If so, what if he's wrong? There are other people who think the location is elsewhere.

He even commented in the video that the golden gate is perfectly lined up with the Dome of Tablets, but that he thought another gate may have existed before lined up with the Dome of the Rock. Or maybe it's already lined up perfectly...
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby bchandler on Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:55 pm

That's a good point... in fact I have heard it said that if Israel had turned to Jesus in 70 A.D. Christ's return would have been then... but because they didn't their punishment was multiplied.

I forget the exact figures but there is a place in scripture where it tells them exactly how long their judgement would last of they rejected him... and that period essentially came to an end in 1967 when Israel re-took the temple mount... The Israel sinned in their lack of faith an another 14000 days was added just as in the wilderness... which ended on rosh hoshanna 2005...

interesting... if this is true... then this explains the delay in finishing the 70th week, and all we are waiting for is what...??? to finish out the remainder of the 70th week.

hmmm...
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Postby watch2000 on Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:22 pm

1whowaits wrote:watch2000, you raise an interesting point. After 70 AD the jewish people went into exile among the nations, scattered to the 4 corners. In that sense the jewish people are still in exile. Up until just recently more jewish people lived in the nations outside of Israel than lived inside Israel. Altough many jews have 'returned from exile' a significant number still live in exile outside of Israel. Aliya still goes on.

So if Gog-magog occurs at the beginning of the 70th week, the exile referred to in Ezek. 39 would be the present exile of the Jewish people living outside of Israel. God says in Ezek. that he will gather every jew to the land, not leaving any behind. Makes one wonder what might cause all the jews to leave their present homes in nations outside of Israel (Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you-Jer 30:11)

if Gog occurs at the end of the 70th week, i am not sure what exile would be referred to, perhaps the same one. Altough at least some of the jewish people are protected in the wilderness during the last 3 and 1/2 years, this would not appear to be an exile by God. Some of the jewish people appear to accept the false messiah and appear to be allowed to remain in Jerusalem right up until the end. Zech 14 refers to half of the city of Jerusalem going into exile just before Christ's return, but it is not clear if this exile is from God or just the AC's doing.

But one would think that as the 70th week is Israel's week, most if not all of Israel would be regathered to the nation during the early part of the week. Jer. 30 and 31 appear to state that Israel and Judah will be joined together and Israel will return to her towns during the time of Jacob's trouble. As the complete regathering occurs after Gog-magog, this could suggest that Gog-magog occurs early in the week or before the week begins. There is no clearly stated evidence that God sends Israel into exile during the 70th week as described in Ezek. 39.


Ezekiel 39:28 cannot take place till the end of trib, because God pours out his spirit on Israel when christ returns, as in zech 12.

Ezekiel 39
Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

ZECH 12
10 " I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.y will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


Alson notice this parallel in EZEK 39 and REVELATION 19,



ezekiel 39
"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: 'Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,' declares the Sovereign LORD.


REV 19

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.


Also,

EZEK 39
7 " 'I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, the nations will know that I the LORDthe Holy One in Israel. t is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign LORD. This is the day I have spoken of.

There is only one DAY spoken of by God and that is The Day of the Lord.
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Postby Douggg on Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:47 am

Hi Brother watch 2000, :mrgreen:

In Revelation 19:10 it says that ....
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Our brethren who have the testimony of Jesus!!!!!! Above.

In Revelation 12:15 we read that Israel, the Jews, is persecuted by Satan for that time, times, and a half times period of the second half of the seven years....as they have what?

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Please read Rev 19:10 again (above). They are our brethren at that point!!!!! They are Christians.

So, it is during that 7 years immediately following Gog/Magog that God pours out his Spirit upon the people of Israel Ezek 39:29... to bring them to believe that Jesus is the messiah. And they DO become Christians because it says for that second half Rev 12:17 above because they have the testimony of Jesus Christ... and the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.... ALL three things go together.

Pouring out His Spirit (ezek39:29) > the Spirit testifies of Jesus > the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy > the Jews have the testimony of Jesus (rev12:17).... for the second half of the seven years, meaning that they have accepted Jesus at the mid-point when the Anitchrist declares that he is god....whom the Jews will refuse to worship.

Also, all of which means that the ENP is not the beginning of the final 7 years... because those 7 years do not begin until immediately after Gog/Magog which will eliminate Islam... so that it will be possible for the Jews to rebuild the temple, unlike right now. Please watch the 2 videos :mrgreen:

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:54 am

bchandler wrote:I forget the exact figures but there is a place in scripture where it tells them exactly how long their judgement would last of they rejected him... and that period essentially came to an end in 1967 when Israel re-took the temple mount... The Israel sinned in their lack of faith an another 14000 days was added just as in the wilderness... which ended on rosh hoshanna 2005...

interesting... if this is true... then this explains the delay in finishing the 70th week, and all we are waiting for is what...??? to finish out the remainder of the 70th week.

hmmm...



Where'd you hear that? That would be very interesting to study.
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Postby watch2000 on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:01 am

Douggg wrote:Hi Brother watch 2000, :mrgreen:

In Revelation 19:10 it says that ....
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Our brethren who have the testimony of Jesus!!!!!! Above.

In Revelation 12:15 we read that Israel, the Jews, is persecuted by Satan for that time, times, and a half times period of the second half of the seven years....as they have what?

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Please read Rev 19:10 again (above). They are our brethren at that point!!!!! They are Christians.

So, it is during that 7 years immediately following Gog/Magog that God pours out his Spirit upon the people of Israel Ezek 39:29... to bring them to believe that Jesus is the messiah. And they DO become Christians because it says for that second half Rev 12:17 above because they have the testimony of Jesus Christ... and the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.... ALL three things go together.

Pouring out His Spirit (ezek39:29) > the Spirit testifies of Jesus > the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy > the Jews have the testimony of Jesus (rev12:17).... for the second half of the seven years, meaning that they have accepted Jesus at the mid-point when the Anitchrist declares that he is god....whom the Jews will refuse to worship.

Also, all of which means that the ENP is not the beginning of the final 7 years... because those 7 years do not begin until immediately after Gog/Magog which will eliminate Islam... so that it will be possible for the Jews to rebuild the temple, unlike right now. Please watch the 2 videos :mrgreen:

Peace,

Doug L.



If Israel accepted Jesus mid-trib then no one could accept Jesus after mid-trib. Israel is in the wilderness because they disobeyed God, If they accepted God mid-trib, the trib would end.

ROMANS 11
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."




Remember Israel is given 70 weeks before there trangression and sin is ended, not 69 and a half.

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.




Also if Gog/magog is before the trib we have a serious problem. Because after gog magog God promises not to let Israel be harmed again.

Ezek 39
So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

25 "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivity and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."
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Postby Douggg on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:08 am

watch2000 wrote:
If Israel accepted Jesus mid-trib then no one could accept Jesus after mid-trib. Israel is in the wilderness because they disobeyed God, If they accepted God mid-trib, the trib would end.


The Jews are not the only ones to accept Jesus, and refusing the to take the mark, nor number of the beast, nor his name. In Rev 7:9-14, is the picture of a great multitude coming from all peoples, kindreds, and tongues who are said to have come out of the great tribulation.

Israel is in the literal wilderness, in Revelation 12:14, because the Jews will heed the voice of Jesus warning them in Matthew 24 to flee to the hills when they see the abomination of desolation set up to be worshipped.

ROMANS 11
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."


The time of the Gentiles ends when God turns his face back to Israel right after Gog/Magog as it says.... and the last week of Daniel 9's 70 weeks begins.
Remember Israel is given 70 weeks before there trangression and sin is ended, not 69 and a half.

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.


You stopped too soon, brother watch2000, in reading that passage.

....putting an end to sin, atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righeousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy - those are all part of what is to be completed during that last week.


Also if Gog/magog is before the trib we have a serious problem. Because after gog magog God promises not to let Israel be harmed again.

Ezek 39
So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

25 "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will now bring Jacob back from captivity and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26 They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."


God is saying that he is going to protect them which He does - as they flee into the wildnerness for that time, times, and a half times. Some of course will not make it... and will be martyred and will be in the multitude appearing Revelation 7.

The current situation today is that many in Israel don't even believe in God, and certainly not Jesus. Yet God has brought them back to the land, and has miracously gave them victory after victory over the Arab countries...

The Gog/Magog event will instill a new religious fervor among the Jewess people... something that is lacking to a great degree in many Jews, especially in the leadership in Israel. Even Rabbi Chaim Richman said that in his video tour of the temple mount.

The first three and a half years, the Jews will be acting zealously toward God, but their zeal will be misplaced... because they will think the Antichrist (incognitio of course) who deceives them is their messiah. It is at the mid-point when the Antichrist is mortally wounded, come back alive and declares that he is god... that their eyes will be opened, realize their terrible mistake, and they will accept Jesus as their messiah.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:09 am

Doug,

I agree... in my reading of scripture it seems to me that Israel does return to God and acknowledge Jesus before his second advent.

BeTheMoon,

The time study on the lengthening of judgement in the 70th week was posted on this board by someone else long ago... I am not sure where it is but it just kind of clicked in reading this discussion.

Essentially it went something to this effect:

    It asserted that Jesus was crucified in the midst of the 70th week.

    Because of their rejection of the Messiah, a 14000 day judgement period was placed on that generation, just as in the wilderness, atthe end of which if they continued to reject Jesus, their judgement would be 70x7x4, inclusive of the 14000 day judgement period leading up to the temple destruction and the AoD.

    At the end of that 14000 day period, the AoD and destruction of the temple occured. (If Israel had turned Jesus at that time, he would have returned.)

    Because of their failure to recognize and call on their messiah this time, there was a scattering and judgement prophesied that was to last 4 times the original 490 years prophesied, which brought us to 1967 according to their math.

    Because Israel failed to take by faith what God had miraculously given them in 1967 (Jerusalem and the Temple mount) there was another 14000 day judgement period which brings us to Rosh Hashana (September 2005).


I have been looking for this study and it's supporting scripture but can't find it.... but...

If this is accurate then:

Should we be expecting another temple?
Should we be expecting another AoD?

or...

Should we be expecting the appearance of the 2 wittnesses?
and for the events of revelation to pick up again with the start of their ministries?

This has made me consider the possibility that we are already further along than perhaps we realize, and that the countdown of the 70th week may have just been "on-hold" until these prophecied periods of judgement, desolation, and exile are completed, and then... rather than starting the events of prophecy over... they start up from where they left off... with the last 3.5 years...

I will keep looking to see if I can find the time study... but I didn't have much luck yesterday.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:25 am

Here is something that is part of this whole multiplied judgement thing.... I found it fascinating how many times the Lord says he will multiply judgement seven times, and that their land would become a waste... in reading this section of God's promises to Israel if they failed to keep his covenant, i couldn't help but see that everything the Lord prophesied against them has come to pass.

If I remember correctly... in the time study I am remembering... they showed from scripture how at the start of Jesus ministry 3 of these multiplied judgements had occured and 4 were remaining... but I can't be 100% sure... Still this section of scripture is worth the read if only to look and see just how accurately God foretold what would happen to Irael if it turned away from him. (Bolding mine)

Lev 26:14 And if you will not listen to Me, and do not do all these commands;
Lev 26:15 and if you reject My statutes, and if your soul hates My judgments, so as not to do all My commands, to the breaking of My covenant;
Lev 26:16 I will also do this to you, and I shall appoint terror over you, the wasting, and the burning fever, destroying the eyes, and consuming the soul; and you shall sow your seed in vain, and your enemies will eat it.
Lev 26:17 And I shall set My face against you, and you shall be smitten before your enemies; and those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee, and there will be no one pursuing you.
Lev 26:18 And if after these things you will not listen to Me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sin;
Lev 26:19 and I will break the pride of your strength, and will make your heavens as iron, and your earth as bronze;
Lev 26:20 and your strength shall be consumed in vain, and your land shall not give her produce, and the tree of the land shall not give its fruit.
Lev 26:21 And if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to listen to Me, then I will bring seven times more plagues on you according to your sins,
Lev 26:22 and send against you the beast of the field, and it shall bereave you. And I shall cut off your livestock and shall make you few, so that your ways are desolate.
Lev 26:23 And if you are not chastised by Me by these things, and shall walk contrary to Me,
Lev 26:24 then I, I also, shall walk contrary to you, and shall smite you, even I, seven times more for your sins;
Lev 26:25 and I will bring a sword on you, executing the vengeance of the covenant, and you shall be gathered to your cities, and I shall send pestilence into your midst; and you shall be given into the hand of an enemy.
Lev 26:26 When I break to you the staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and shall give back your bread by weight; and you shall eat, and shall not be satisfied.
Lev 26:27 If you will not listen to Me for this, and shall walk contrary to Me,
Lev 26:28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury. I also will chastise you, I also, seven times for your sins.
Lev 26:29 And you shall eat of the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat of the flesh of your daughters.
Lev 26:30 And I shall destroy your high places and cut down your altars, and shall put your dead bodies on the carcasses of your idols. And My soul shall loathe you.
Lev 26:31 And I shall make your cities a waste, and shall make your sanctuaries desolate; and I shall not smell your sweet fragrances.
Lev 26:32 And I shall make the land desolate, and your enemies who are living in it shall be astonished at it.
Lev 26:33 And I will scatter you among nations, and shall draw out the sword after you, and your land shall become a waste, and your cities shall be a desolation.
Lev 26:34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths, all the days of the desolation. And you shall be in the land of your enemies; then the land shall enjoy rest, and shall enjoy its sabbaths.
Lev 26:35 It shall rest all the days of the desolation, that which it has not rested in your sabbaths while you lived on it.
Lev 26:36 And those who are left of you, I shall also bring a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a driven leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as one flees from the sword; and they shall fall when no one pursues.
Lev 26:37 And they shall stumble upon one another, as if it were before the sword, when no one pursues. And you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
Lev 26:38 And you shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall devour you.
Lev 26:39 And of those who are left of you, they shall putrefy in their iniquity, in the lands of your enemies; and also in the iniquities of their fathers, they shall putrefy with them.
Lev 26:40 And if they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, in their trespass with which they have trespassed against Me; and, also, that they have walked contrary to Me,
Lev 26:41 that I also have walked contrary to them, and I have brought them into the land of their enemies; if their uncircumcised hearts are then humbled, and they then have accepted punishment for their iniquity;
Lev 26:42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and also My covenant with Isaac, and I shall also remember My covenant with Abraham, and I shall remember the land.

Lev 26:43 For the land shall be forsaken by them, and shall satisfy for its sabbaths, in the desolation without them. And they shall satisfy for their iniquity, because, even because, they have kicked against My judgments, and their soul has loathed My statutes.
Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, nor will I hate them, to consume them, to break My covenant with them; for I am Jehovah their God.
Lev 26:45 Then I shall remember for them the covenant of the first fathers, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God; I am Jehovah.
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and the judgments and the laws which Jehovah has given between Him and the sons of Israel, in Mount Sinai, by the hand of Moses.
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Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:53 am

Very interesting stuff, BC. I was just talking with someone about this yesterday; he brought up something similar to this (that the first 3.5 years started, then a period of judgement, then the last 3.5 years begins at a later date).

Do you know who started the orignal thread? Maybe we can just search it on the board.
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Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:51 pm

bchandler wrote:Because Israel failed to take by faith what God had miraculously given them in 1967 (Jerusalem and the Temple mount) there was another 14000 day judgement period which brings us to Rosh Hashana (September 2005).


I just re-read this (very intriguing--sp?). If this is correct, then the return IS closer than we think! 3.5 years after 09/05 would be around Spring 2008.
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:45 pm

I think that's what Triton had posted back in the Fall, as well.

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:47 pm

BTM,

Here's the link:

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=15414

YBIC,

Bob

P.S. I think the position of the stars in the constellation that Phillip posted is quite interesting...
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Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:06 pm

Perhaps the passage that might apply is Ezekiel 4, which gives a specific period of time for the 'seige of Jerusalem'. God stated in Ezek. 4 that the period of the seige due to the sins of Israel, the northern kingdom, would be 390 days representing 390 years. The period of punishment for the northern kingdom began with the seige of Samaria, roughly in 723-724 BC. (2 Kings 17:9)

After the period of 390 years, the northern kingdom did not return to the Lord, so it would appear that the passage in Lev. 26 would apply- 'if after all these things you do not listen to me, I will chastise you seven times more for your sin'.

The math could be as follows- 390 x 7 = 2,730 yrs x 360 days (hebrew calendar) =982,800 days -:- 365.25 days (current calendar) =2,690.7 years of punishment

2,690.7 years -723 (BC) =1967.7

And in fact the seige of Jerusalem for the northern kingdom and the nation Israel did end in june of 1967.

But God also stated that there was a further seige of Jerusalem for the southern kingdom, Judah , for 40 years, which was described after the seige of Jerusaem for the northern kingdom.

While the northern kingdom consisted of the 10 tribes, the southern kingdom consisted of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of David the king, the tirbe of Benjamin, and the Levites, the priests. The implication could be that the seige of Jerusalem would continue for the ruling tribe and the priests, which has in fact been the case for the last 40 years.

Because of the Islamic control of the temple mount Israel, altough she may have the legal right and military might to do so, Judah has not ruled over that area for the past 40 years. And because of the Islamic control of the temple mount the tribe of the priests, the Levites, have not had access to the area most precious to them.

The seige of Jerusalem for the southern kingdom has continued beyond the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 until the present day. If Ezek. 4 is describing the current 'seige of Jerusalem' that seige should end this year, in June 2007, when the 40 years will be completed.

If this is the case, will Israel return to the Lord this year or will the time of seige be multiplied times seven as it was for the northern kingdom?

And what event might bring such a return of Israel to the Lord? What event would allow the Israeli people to reassert their authority over the temple mount, and perhaps even rebuild the temple?
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Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:11 pm

Watch2000, I believe if you look closely at Zech 12, which describes the pouring out of a spirit at Christ's return, that the spirit is one of grace and supplication and it is poured out only on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. This pouring out would appear to be limited to those in Jerusalem and the surrounding tribe of Judah, a limited number of Israeli's, probably the only ones left at that time.

There will be weeping in Jerusalem and among each clan, for the one who was pierced, Jesus. The pouring out of the Spirit here would appear to be limited to those in and around Jerusalem, and repentance will be by clan, a subdivision of the tribes.

The pouring out at Christ's return would appear to be limited to a small area and the response would be by clan, by each tribal subdivision, by each community. This would appear to be a return by the nation, or subdivisions of the nation, not by individuals.

In contrast, Joel 2 describes a pouring out of the spirit after an attack by a northern army which God defeats on Israel's behalf. At that time the Spirit will be poured out on all (types of) people, sons and daughters, young and old, men and women. They will prophecy, dream dreams and see visions.

This pouring out of the Spirit is the spirit of Pentcost and the recieving of the Holy Spirit by individuals. In fact this passage was quoted by Peter at Pentcost 2,000 years ago, when they spoke in gentile tongues. It would not appear to be a spirit of grace and supplication or a spirit of national repentance as that described in Zech 12.

It would appear that 2 different 'pourings out of the Spirit' are described in Joel 2 and Zech 12. In Zech. 12, it is a spirit of national repentance, of forgiveness and worship ,of grace and supplication, at Christ's return at armageddon.

Joel 2 describes the individual receiving of the Holy Spirit in the same way as Pentecost, in which all types of people will prophecy, and dream dreams and see visions. And Joel 2 describes this event as happening after the attack by the northern army, which is most consistent with Gog-magog in Ezek. 38- 39.

And Ezek. 39 does describe a return of Israel to the Lord and to her land and that God will 'pour out His spirit on the house of Israel', which would not appear to be limited to Jerusalem and Judah.

Ezek. 36 and 37 also appear to describe this time when Israel and Judah are again joined together as one nation and they will be regathered to the land of Israel. At that time God will make a covenant of peace, an 'everlasting covenant', and he will give them a 'new heart' and a 'new spirit', he will replace their heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

The 'new covenant' that God will make with Israel is also discussed in Jer. 30 and 31. Jeremiah also states that when Israel and Judah are again joined into one nation and regathered to the land, God will make a new covenant with the 'house of Israel', and He will 'put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts'.

The 'new covenant' described in Jeremiah 30- 31 is specifically identified as the 'new covenant of Jesus Christ' in Hebrews 8, and this passage in Jeremiah is directly quoted in Hebrews.

So it would appear that Israel, at least a part of the nation, will accept Christ as saviour and receive the Holy Spirit after an attack by a nation from the north whom God defeats. This would not necessarily mean the entire nation accepts Christ as only 1/3 of the nation is described as a believeing remnant in Zech 13.

And Jeremiah does appear to identify this time when Israel receives the new covenant of Jesus Christ. Jeremiah 30 states "How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.' Jacob may indeed be 'saved' during the 'time of trouble'.
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Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:03 pm

OBXBob wrote:I think that's what Triton had posted back in the Fall, as well.

YBIC,

Bob



Where have I been?!??
Looks like I OD'd on your popcorn, Bob.

:snack:
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:40 pm

Hi Doug,

The trangsgressors are come in the full.....(above) is when the last of those kings warring with one another of the sub-empires of the torso of brass ends in the abomination of desolation of the temple.... by the king of the north, in that particular set of conflicts again, within the torso of brass.... being come into the full (or completion) by the acts of Antiochus Ephinanes.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Jesus tells them they will see an event described as the abomination of desolation (who ever reads let him understand). Jesus sends us the readers to Daniel for understanding of this event (AoD). He says when they see “the” abomination spoken of by Daniel. It did not say “an” or “like” it said “the”.

When they “see”, with their eyes, the AoD they are to flee Judea. Jesus spoke these words around 32 AD. Antiochus died in 163 BC. It is impossible for Antiochus to fulfill these words spoken by Jesus, he was in the grave. He could not have fulfilled it back when he was alive because in the future Jesus told them to look for it. They will see it meaning that the event Jesus is talking about is sometime after 32 AD. Antiochus can be totally eliminated from possibly fulfilling what Jesus was talking about.

Jesus tells us that Daniel spoke of this event. So naturally we should look in the book of Daniel to find this event to gain understanding of it. A search for the word abomination brings up three places in Daniel that it is spoken about.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Here we learn that this event occurs around the middle of the last 7 years. This makes sense as Jesus is talking about His return in Matt 24 which will be near the end thus within the last 7 years. The he as you know is the prince that shall come or the Antichrist. He is given 3 ½ years of power (Rev 13) starting at the AoD which is the middle of the last 7 years.

We know when he is destroyed also, at Armageddon. So his moment in the limelight is for the last 3 ½ years. But he is around at the beginning of the last 7 years as he is the one confirming the covenant which begins the last 7 years.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

This is the next place the word abomination shows up. This makes desolate as well or the AoD. Notice again we see the taking away of the daily sacrifice as in Dan 9 also. The person that does this is simply referred to as “his” here.

Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

He is “he” here and so on to the end of the chapter. The same person is referred to (he,his,him…etc). The same person is spoken of in Dan 11:31 as is in Dan 11:32 and the rest of the chapter. There are no king changes it is talking about the same person it was talking about in Dan 11:31. He meets his end at 11:45.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

This is his death here. The person that did 11:31 dies right here. This is the last verse of chapter 11. Here are the first few verses of chapter 12.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


At that time (time spoken of in chapter 11) Michael stands up for Israel and there will be a time of trouble worse than there has ever been since there has been a nation.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


Jesus told them to flee from Judea because of Matt 24:21-22. Then there shall be great tribulation, there hasn’t been greater tribulation since the beginning of the world to that time and there will never be a worse tribulation than the one Jesus warns them of. At that time if anyone tries to tell you that Jesus has arrived don’t believe them.

Daniel talks about the worst tribulation since Israel was a nation and so does Jesus. Just after this trouble for Israel we clearly see a resurrection. This ties the end of the man in chapter 11 to near the end of the last 7 years. If the man spoken on in 11:45 dies at the end of the last 7 years then the AoD he is speaking of is the same as the one Jesus is talking about. We can actually confirm this even further by continuing to read chapter 12 where the 3 rd instance of the AoD in Daniel is spoken of.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The last time the AoD was mentioned prior to this was in chapter 11. There will be 3 ½ years left after the AoD is set up and the sacrifice taken away. So from Dan 11:31 to Dan 12:2 we have ~ 3 ½ years. We know this man has to be the AC from the timing given in Dan 9. All three of the cases discussed so far are definitely speaking of the same event, the one Jesus said would happen after 32 AD.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.


The taking away of the daily sacrifice occurs in all cases of the AoD that we have looked at. We know the AC does this in the middle of the last 7 years. The little horn here is also the AC. By him the sacrifice was taken away. This also is the AoD by association between the AC and his taking away of the daily sacrifice.

So everywhere in the book of Daniel speaks of the one and only AoD Jesus teaches about. Daniel 8 tells us the AC comes out of the old Greek empire and Dan 11 narrows it down to the North portion of the old Greek empire. The northern section was Asia Minor in Roman times now it is what we know as the middle east or a big chunk of it at least.

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Here is a map with the northern division of the old Greek empire shown in red. This is where the bible says the AC rises from again disproving the validity of the ENP as the covenant. If Rome had nothing to do with it then certainly their ancestors (EU) also have nothing to do with it.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:57 pm

Watch2000, you said 'there is only one Day spoken of by God and that is the Day of the Lord'. I would disagree with that, I believe scripture may be describing 2 future days of the Lord.

The OT appears to use the term DOTL in 2 different ways. The term DOTL is used to describe the last day, the great and terrible day of the Lord, when God judges the world. But the OT also uses the term to describe other days when God judges particular nations, which is clearly not the last day.

What might one expect if scripture were describing 2 future days of the Lord instead of just one? What if there were 2 threads running through scripture, one describing the last day, the day of Christ's return, and the other describing another day, a day separate from the last day?

If there were 2 separate days of the Lord to come, one might expect scripture to describe those days similarly and also differently. They could be described similarly because they can both be described as days of the Lord, they would have some features that would be the same.

But they also would be described differently, they would have some contrasting features, because they are after all different days at different times.

This, i believe is the case with the day of Gog-magog and the day of armageddon. Armageddon certainly occurs on the last day, the day of Christ's return. The last day, the day of Christ's return is described as the DOTL in Joel 3 and Zech 14.

But Gog-magog also has features that may indentify it as a DOTL. At Gog there is a suggestion of the 'cosmic signs', the sun and moon darkened, by a cloud covering the land. At Gog there is an earthquake and God pours out His wrath on Gog and his armies. And in the description of the day of Gog, Ezek. uses the terms 'at that time' and 'on that day'which are terms that are used elsewhere to describe the DOTL.

Armageddon and the last day also have these same features, the cosmic signs, an earthquake, God's wrath being poured out, and the term DOTL used to describe that day.

But there are major features that separate these 2 days. At armageddon and the last day all armies gather at Jerusalem in the valley, Jesus is seen in the clouds, the elect are gathered, Jesus returns and destroys the armies and the AC is cast alive into the Lake of Fire.

At Gog-magog, a day that has the features of a DOTL, a limited number of armies are gathered on the mountains of Israel, God pours down hail and burning sulfur and destroys the armies, Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave. At Gog there is no description of Jesus returning or the raising of the dead, no description of the AC being cast into the Lake of fire, no description of all armies of the world gathered.

These 2 days are described differently but also similarly. They both have features that would identify them as a DOTL, but scripture does give details about each day that are clearly different. This is what one might expect if scripture were describing 2 future days of the Lord.

One might also expect that if there were 2 future days that when these 2 days were described together in a particular passage, there would be a distinct separation between the 2 days. Joel 3 describes the last day, the DOTL when Christ returns, the day of armageddon, a day when the sun and moon are darkened.

But Joel 2 appears to describe another day, a day when the northern army attacks Israel and is destroyed by God. This day also is termed a DOTL, and the sun and moon are also darkened.

But in-between these 2 days is a time described as 'afterward', after the attack by the northern army, but 'before' the great and terrible day of the Lord described in Joel 3. This time appears to be a period of time in which God pours out His spirit on Israel, a time that can be identified with the time of Jacob's trouble, as discussed above. It is a time when even the signs are different, the moon is blood red, the moon is described differently than that which is seen on either DOTL in Joel 2 and 3.

Joel 2 would appear to describe 2 days of the Lord, days when the sun and moon are darkened, and place between them a distinct and different period of time when God pours out His Spirit, and the moon is red. This also is what one might expect if there were 2 future days of the Lord.

If there were 2 future days of the Lord one might also expect to find threads of these 2 days running through other scriptures. Clearly Joel 3 and Zech 14 describe the last day, the day of Christ's return and armageddon. But what about some of the other OT passages, what day are they describing?

Amos 5 and 8 appear to describe the DOTL and the cosmic signs. Amos 7 describes an attack on Israel by swarms of locusts, which interestingly enough is the description given for what appears to be the armies of Gog in Joel 2.

Zephaniah mentions the DOTL and interestingly enough uses the same phrases to describe that day as Joel 2 does, again Joel 2 appearing to be consistent with Gog-magog.

Isa. 13 describes the DOTL in the context of the destruction of Babylon, perhaps if there are parallels between the 2 days of the Lord the destruction of Babylon will be one of those parallel events. Isa. 14 then goes on and appears to describe a man intimately associated with Satan, who interestingly enough, is buried in a mass grave. I believe that was the eventual end of Gog described in Ezek. 39.

So it would appear that it is possible that there could be 2 future days of the Lord to come. One of those days, the last day, the great and terrible day, occurs at the end of the 70th week.

The other day, the day of Gog, which may also be termed a DOTL by OT standards, occurs at a different time, the time of which is not so clear. But there is that 7 years of weapons burning statement, and that separation between Joel 2 and 3 that could be associated with the time of Jacobs trouble.

And there would appear to be a precedent for this type of thing in scripture, this would not be the first time God would have done something like this. The OT sages knew the scripture, they knew the messiah would come as a conquering king. They also knew the passages about the suffering servant, but they couldn't put the 2 together and so they missed that which they were looking for.

They didn't realize that 2 different scriptures were describing the same messiah, just at 2 different times. Could God be doing the same thing again? Only this time could the same term, the DOTL, be used in scripture to describe 2 separate events at 2 different times?

Instead of 2 different scriptures describing the same thing, could the same scriptures be describing 2 different things? Quite ingenious actually. I believe this is something God could be doing, he truly is an incredible God of mystery.
Last edited by 1whowaits on Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:17 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

If nothing can be certain as you seem to say all the time then why did God even give us the bible? It was written for common men. Don't you just think it means what it says. If we are unable to connect these things then why even put it there for us to read? If you read just what it says it is simple. It wasn't written to confuse us. We are very very near the end times. If you read it for what it says it matches the political climate almost perfectly. The bible says that middle eastern neighbors of Israel will try to destroy her in the end. Look into the world. We are the ones these things were written for. If we cannot be sure of anything then we aren't understanding what was said. It is all there very simple and clear for us to understand.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:57 pm

Seeker, i guess i am saying that understanding prophecy is not so straight forward, not so clearly understood. God appears to intend it to be a mystery which is further proof that He is God, and we are not.

I also think we are not looking at what God has done in the past. The OT sages clearly knew the scriptures and completely missed the messiah. We need to keep that in mind. Are we smarter than the OT sages? -I don't think so. But we do have an advantage, we have the Holy Spirit, and he will make it clear to us what is to come, at the proper time.

As far as certainty, i would say yes, that day will come and probably very soon. Our knowledge is increasing greatly but there still is great disagreement in the body about what the scripture is saying. I can only conclude that it is God's intention that we not understand everything right now, and that would mean there are probably going to be some major twists and turns just ahead.

I think we may be in the position of the Israelites who, after coming out of Egypt, God took through the less direct route to Cannan because 'if they faced war they would turn back'. I think God may be sparing us some of the details of what we really face, lest we turn back and become discouraged. The strength we need will be given at the time it is needed.

I believe we are coming into a time of greater understanding of prophetic scripture, and likely that is just about the time events come and hit you upside the head.

I think we should persue the understanding of scripture with greater vigor and intensity, because when we do understand these things it will be a great encouragement to those who do not understand, and when events occur we can build up the body and win the unbelieving. So we do need to get this right, we cannot rest on our opinions, we have to keep pushing forward, and we have to consider each others views on scripture. Sooner or later someone will have insight and God will make it clear to us.

That is why i think we do need to 'butt heads', it forces us to examine the scriptures more intently. We may see thing differently now, but soon we will have the same insights. It is just that the process gives me a headache.
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:01 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

Yes but take Isaiah 13 for example. You post all the time that it isn't the same cosmic signs. That is non-sense. The things written in Isaiah 13 have never occured. It is clear and straight forward but yet you insist we can't know. I don't buy it sorry.

Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

This has never happened. If this has never happened then the other things on the same day haven't happened either. This chapter clearly talks about the day of the Lord but you act as if it doesn't say that.

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


These events all occur in the context of the day referred to as the day of the Lord. Just read what it says. It isn't hidden or clouded, it just doesn't match your particular view of things. Well sorry it says what it says. There are many things we can know with certainty and Isaiah 13 is one of them.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby nonymouse on Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:12 am

Particularly enjoyed your 9:57 pm post, 1whowaits.

Blessings,
nonymouse
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:59 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Jesus tells them they will see an event described as the abomination of desolation (who ever reads let him understand). Jesus sends us the readers to Daniel for understanding of this event (AoD). He says when they see “the” abomination spoken of by Daniel. It did not say “an” or “like” it said “the”
.

Seeker, what Antiochus did was "the" Abomination of Desolation in Chapter 11. But not "the" Abomination of Desolation that will occure during the reign of the Antichrist in Chapter 12.

What is "the" Abomination of Desolation? That a man will have put a statue of himself in the temple representing himself as god. That is exactly what Antiochus did. And what the false prophet will do concerning the Antichrist.

Let me explain....

Antiochus "epiphanes" IV saw himself as the manifestation of who he believed was god - i.e. Zeus. Antiochus believed that he was god in the fflesh.

Antiochus' lack of lasting military achievements was offset by his policy of Hellenization. He was not only a lavish benefactor of shrines to Greek gods across the eastern Mediterranean -- including the temple of Zeus at Athens --, in territories he controlled he actively promoted the cult of the living ruler founded by his father, representing himself as the manifestation of the supreme god, Zeus (hence the epithet epiphanes).
from http://virtualreligion.net/iho/antiochus_4.html that was just one site, you can find the same thing at a multitude of sites in a internet search seeker... it is a matter of history. Antiochus put a statue of Zeus in the temple... but with the notion that he (Antiochus) was the maninfestation of Zeus, himself. Zeus(god)=Antiochus(god)=Zeus(god). Get it?

So Antiochus did "the" Abomination of Desolation" - that is, what the Abomination of Desolation is. The false prophet will do the same thing... and have a statue erected in the temple of a man (the Antichrist) as the manifestation of god.

When they “see”, with their eyes, the AoD they are to flee Judea. Jesus spoke these words around 32 AD. Antiochus died in 163 BC. It is impossible for Antiochus to fulfill these words spoken by Jesus, he was in the grave. He could not have fulfilled it back when he was alive because in the future Jesus told them to look for it. They will see it meaning that the event Jesus is talking about is sometime after 32 AD. Antiochus can be totally eliminated from possibly fulfilling what Jesus was talking about.


Antiochus was certainly not the Antichrist, living 160 years before Jesus- but Antiochus did do what "the" Abomination of Desolation is - as I explained above. Again, Antiochus did not do "the" Abomination of Desolation that the false prophet does of the Antichrist... that specific Abomination of Desolation (the same act and concept that Antiochus did, however) as related to the Antichrist is found in Chapter 12.

What we know from history... of what Antiochus did.... we can know exactly what "the" Abomination of Desolation will be... it will be a statue.

IMHO, the same statue - the statue that Nebuchadnezzar saw, and who's face was that of the future Antichrist, that came tumbling down. Babylon the great is fallen is fallen.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:04 am

Hi Doug,

So Antiochus did "the" Abomination of Desolation" - that is, what the Abomination of Desolation is. The false prophet will do the same thing... and have a statue erected in the temple of a man (the Antichrist) as the manifestation of god.


No he did not, the man that does the AoD dies in Dan 11:45 and the next verse after he dies is the resurrection. Antiochus did not fulfill what Jesus spoke of he was dead it is impossible!!! He did not fulfill Dan 11:31 because if it was him there would have been a resurrection after his death in 11:45.

Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:23 am

And another thing Doug before you continue this theory of yours. Read Daniel 11. I have posted it here for you. The man that does Dan 11:31 is first introduced in Dan 11:21 the rest of this chapter clearly talks about the same person. There are no king changes and nothing in the text indicating a change in the person being spoke about.

Dan 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.
Dan 11:18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.
Dan 11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.
Dan 11:20 Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.
Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
Dan 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
Dan 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
Dan 11:26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
Dan 11:27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


This is all talking about one individual Doug. But of course that doesn't match your view even though it is as plain as can be written. You are incorrect Doug, Dan 11:21-45 speaks of one person as is clear from what is written. You have to say that somewhere within 11:21-11:45 that there is a change in people. Well Doug point it out because Dan 11 does not say that.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:50 am

Now where was I…Aw yes disproving that the ENP is the covenant. The next reason why is the same as the first I have given (AC rising from middle east Dan 8,11). This one just uses different scripture to also prove Rome had nothing to do with the AC.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


The little horn is the AC. The little horn is the leader of the 4th kingdom.

Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


This horn, the AC, is the leader of the 4th kingdom that will exist on earth. Ten kings are with him when he leads the 4th kingdom. They are given power for one hour with him.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The kingdom that the AC leads, 4th, consists of the AC and 10 kings. They make war with the saints until God returns (Ancient of days). The AC did not rule over Rome nor were there 10 kings with him, and they also did not make war with the saints for 3 ½ years until God returns and gives the kingdom to the saints. Rome fulfilled no part of this scripture. The things that Daniel says were part of the 4th kingdom were not part of the Roman empire. Therefore it is impossible for Rome to be the 4th kingdom Daniel speaks of. And please if you try to tell me that there are 5 kingdoms show me where that is written because Daniel says that there will only be four, period.

Since Rome was not the 4th kingdom then the EU cannot be the revived 4th kingdom because it hasn’t existed yet!. So the ENP proposed by the EU cannot be the covenant that the AC confirms because Rome had nothing to do with the 4th kingdom.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:35 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

So Antiochus did "the" Abomination of Desolation" - that is, what the Abomination of Desolation is. The false prophet will do the same thing... and have a statue erected in the temple of a man (the Antichrist) as the manifestation of god.


No he did not, the man that does the AoD dies in Dan 11:45 and the next verse after he dies is the resurrection. Antiochus did not fulfill what Jesus spoke of he was dead it is impossible!!! He did not fulfill Dan 11:31 because if it was him there would have been a resurrection after his death in 11:45.


Seeker, Jesus didn't say that the Abomination of Desolation was a man nor was the Antichrist standing in the temple. And in Daniel 12:12 the Abomination of Desolation will be "setup" to be worshipped.

In Rev 13, the false prophet has the world make an image of the Antichrist - that is the Abomination of Desolation that will be set up to be worshipped... because in Rev 13:15 anyone who does not worship the image will be killed.

I take no issue that the king after Dan 11:35-36 is the Antichrist... so Dan 11:45 is not an issue to me about referring to the Antichrist.

And another thing Doug before you continue this theory of yours. Read Daniel 11. I have posted it here for you. The man that does Dan 11:31 is first introduced in Dan 11:21 the rest of this chapter clearly talks about the same person. There are no king changes and nothing in the text indicating a change in the person being spoke about.


The king changes to the Antichrist king of the end times in verses 35-36.

11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

The king beginning in Daniel 21 - 31 is a continuation of the post Alexander kingdoms of the earlier verses - Antiochus Ephianes. Note that the time of the end in verse 35 comes after the explanation of his exploits. If the king in Daniel 21 were the end-times Antichrist there would have been some indication regarding transitioning to the time of the end in verse 20 or 21. But it doesn't do it. The transition to the end times occures at the end, not the beginning, of the verse 21-31 king's exploits.

Antiochus's act, placing a statue of the temple that represented himself as god - is the exact same thing that the false prophet will do. Antiochus act was the fullness of the Hellinization process that trangressed the covenant that God had made with the Jews. It was at the latter time of the torso of brass, Alexander's Greek empire kingdom.


Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom (the Greek empire), when the transgressors are come to [b]the full
, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The king of fierce countenance is the Antichrist, the king who comes in the end times after Daniel 11:35 the transition verse to the end times.
Now where was I…Aw yes disproving that the ENP is the covenant. The next reason why is the same as the first I have given (AC rising from middle east Dan 8,11). This one just uses different scripture to also prove Rome had nothing to do with the AC.


:mrgreen: what it should be telling you is that your theory is off since the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27 is of the people who destroyed the temple - the Romans.

Since Rome was not the 4th kingdom then the EU cannot be the revived 4th kingdom because it hasn’t existed yet!. So the ENP proposed by the EU cannot be the covenant that the AC confirms because Rome had nothing to do with the 4th kingdom.


The current situation in Europe is that of a defacto Holy Roman Empire... not Roman Empire. When the ten kings burn the Vatican to ground... then it will be the Roman Empire again. The little horn will be the leader of that empire - and the ten kings the ten toes of Nebuchanezzars statue dream.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:43 pm

Hi Doug,

Seeker, Jesus didn't say that the Abomination of Desolation was a man nor was the Antichrist standing in the temple. And in Daniel 12:12 the Abomination of Desolation will be "setup" to be worshipped.


Yes the AC and his army place the AoD. They are the ones that do it.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The arms (armies/people) and the AC pollute the sanctuary, take away the daily sacrifice, and place the AoD. We have just read Daniel 9 before getting to Dan 11. Remember Daniel 9 tells us that the AC does several things. He confirms the covenant that begins the last 7 years.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In the middle of the week he and his people/armies cause the sacrifice to cease. Same as Daniel 11. The AoD portion is worded a bit differently but is saying the same thing. The abominations cause or make it desolate. An abomination is basically idol worship as used here in Daniel so I agree with you it will be some image of the AC whether statue or high tech gadget who knows?

The key here though is that it is the AC and his armies who are placing it (Dan 11:31). Daniel 9:27 tells us the AoD is at year ~3.5. Daniel 12 tells us that there are ~ 3 ½ years after the AoD of Daniel 11:31.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

This agrees completely with the AoD of Dan 11 being at the midpoint of the last 7 years. Dan 9 says it begins at midpoint and ends 3 ½ years later. 3 ½ years later is at the end of the last 7 years. What do we see at the end of the last 7 years?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


This is just after the AC has been killed in Rev 19. The AC dies at Dan 11:45 and then the resurrection in Dan 12. Same sequence matching precisely. We know from Daniel 9 that it is the AC who causes the AoD. Going back in time before the end of the 7 years the next event would be the AoD in the life of the man of Dan 11:45.

We know Dan 11:45 to be the end of the last 7 years. There haven’t been any new characters introduced into Dan 11 since Daniel 11:21. It is still referring to the king of the north from Dan 11:21. We see an event that Daniel 9 has already told us occurs in the midst of the last 7 years. This is after we connected the same person it is still referring to, to the end of the last 7 years.

You expect me to believe that, without the slightest hint in scripture, the person we are speaking of suddenly is out and a new person suddenly appears even though Daniel 9 tells us this event is at midpoint and we have traced our man to the end of the last 7 years? That makes no sense. If we read what it says we see it is speaking of one individual starting at 11:21 and finishing the chapter.

The man you admit is the AC in Dan 11:45 began his career at the covenant beginning the last 7 years. He has been on the scene for 7 at his death. This is the same man that causes the AoD and you are going to seriously propose that it isn’t the same man in Dan 11:31?

Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
Dan 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
Dan 11:23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
Dan 11:24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.
Dan 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
Dan 11:26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
Dan 11:27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


Right after the AoD here you see the tribulation Jesus spoke of. This is the same event Jesus was speaking of which we know was not Antiochus. The story of the AC in Daniel 11 begins at 11:21 and ends at 11:45 with 11:31 marking the midpoint of his career. What we see before Dan 11:31 are things he does in the first 3 ½ years. So rather than inserting an imaginary figure I just read what it says. Doug it makes perfect sense just as written and there is no indication that it is speaking of but one person.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:03 pm

Hi Doug,

what it should be telling you is that your theory is off since the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27 is of the people who destroyed the temple - the Romans.


You seem to have problems with just reading the words for what they say. Let’s read what this proof of yours actually says.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The Messiah was cut-off after the 69th week ended. There are only 70 weeks. The 70th week is about the AC. The 69th week ended around 32 AD and the 70th week hasn’t began as of yet. Dan 9:26 introduces a character called the prince that shall come meaning he will arrive in the future. This same prince is referred to as “he” in Dan 9:27. Both of these verses are speaking of the same individual.

The prince and his people destroy the city and sanctuary. We also know the AC (prince) and his people/armies do this.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

In Dan 9:26 the prince that shall come has people with him. In Daniel 11:31 he also has people with him, his people. They are in his army they are his. There is nothing mysterious here either Doug. Just read what it says. The “he” in Dan 9:27 is the “prince” in Dan 9:26 unless one uses RRE logic which inserts mysterious people where the bible doesn’t indicate the person has changed.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Hey

Postby njfishwatchTurkey&Isr on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:14 pm

Thanks so much Seeker,

I have bantered the idea around on numerous occasions, but for the first time it finally sunk in how obvious it is. The verse just states that the people of the prince will "destroy" the city and sanctuary (of which Scriptures states will happen in the end). It says nothing about the people of 70 a.d. Amazing how we get brainwashed by the teachings of men.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:32 pm

Hey NJ,

Yes it is one of these after you see it. :doh:

I first saw it about a year ago and have been trying to explain it every since...lol. It weaves all the verses about the AoD together if you know what I mean now. When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies flee to Judea....parallel to AoD. Makes sense if you think about it.

Israel being slaughtered in the end is plastered all over the bible. We know Gog and Armageddon are there war everywhere...lol. Why is it so hard to imagine the AC and his armies attacking Israel especially since the bible tells us this happens? Are we to think the Jews will give up a temple that they haven't had for around 2,000 years without a fight? The temple as always will be the final stand of the Jews.

So AC surrounds Jerusalem (Luke 21), destroys the city and sanctuary taking the temple (Dan 9:26), sits in the temple and proclaims himself above all gods (2Th2:4), pollutes the temple, stops the daily sacrifice and sets up the AoD (Dan 9:27). Anyway once you see it you can't read it again the same...lol

Later,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:32 pm

Seeker, let me be little clearer on what i believe Isa. 13 might be describing. There is agreement among Bible historians that many of the events in Isa. 13 have already taken place, Babylon was defeated by the Medes in the past. That is pretty clear, just check any Bible commentary.

But clearly Isa. 13 has not been completely fulfilled so there certainly may be a future fulfillment of this passage and a future destruction of 'a' Babylon.

What i am trying to say about the cosmic signs is that, when they are mentioned in scripture, they are not always describing the last day, the last DOTL. The cosmic signs do not always mean that there is a supernatural darkening of the sun and moon. The cosmic signs can be fulfilled just as easily by a cloud or smoke covering the sun and the moon.

An example of this is Ezek. 32- 'I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light.' This passage describes a past destruction of Egypt but uses the same language and description that describes the 'cosmic signs' but clearly this is not a supernatural event. There can be 'cosmic signs' that are not the same as what happens on the last day but scripture may describe them in the same way- the sun and moon will be darkened.

It is possible that in Isa. 13 scripture may be describing a similar event, a darkening of the sun and moon by a cloud or smoke or whatever, which would not be a supernatural darkening. Isa. 13 therefore does not necessarily have to be talking about the last day, if you base that on the cosmic signs alone.

The cosmic signs do not define the last day, they do not occur only on the last day. They occurred in the past in Ezek. 32, whenever that destruction of Egypt occurred.

You appear to be saying that whenever the cosmic signs are mentioned, then that passage has to be describing the last day. i am saying that this is overly simplistic, there has to be more than the darkening of the sun and moon to identify the day described as the last day. If the cosmic signs occur in a passage that has been fulfilled in the past, then their occurrance did not happen on the last day.

If their occurrance happened on a day other than the last day in the past, then why can't the occurrance of the cosmic signs in the future also occur on a day that is not the last day? The cosmic signs may not happen on just the last day, they may occur on a separate day in the future that is not the last day.

Gog-magog would appear to be such a day. Certainly the sun and moon would be darkened during and after that battle if God is raining down burning sulfur. And there is significant evidence that Gog-magog is not armageddon, so Gog does not fall on the last day.

what I am really trying to say is that there may be 2 parallel threads running through the scripture that both use the term the day of the Lord. One describes armageddon, the other describes Gog magog. You cannot tell the difference between the 2 descriptions by looking for the cosmic signs. The cosmic signs are common to both days, it is just that on one day it will be a darkening by smoke, etc., and the other will likely be darkened supernaturally by God.

If you want to tell which day is being described in a particular passage it is relatively easy in many passages, just look at the context. If it is describing the return of Jesus and all nations gathered and the AC destroyed then the passage is discussing the last day. (Joel 3, Zech 14, Matt 24, Rev. 16, 19, 20)

If the passage is describing an attack by a northern army that God defeats and after which Israel returns to the Lord and God pours out His spirit, then the passage is discussing Gog-Magog. (Ezek. 38 and 39, Joel 2)

Other passages that mention the DOTL may not be as clear, but the similarity of the context to the above mentioned passages will usually point to the day. Amos 5 and 8 mention the DOTL and Amos 7 describes an attack on Israel by locusts, which would appear to be a parallel of Joel 2. Amos 7 also describes what appears to be the 2nd trumpet and perhaps even the AOD.

Zeph. mentions the DOTL and then uses the same phrases used in Joel 2. Zeph also describes judgement on Gaza and Moab and Ammon (Jordan) which is elsewhere associated with the destruction of Damascus and the nations surronding Israel(Amos 1), which is likely a precursor to Gog-magog.

And Isa. 13 describes a destruction of Babylon and mentions the sun and moon darkened and an earthquake, is that really enough to say that this passage describes the last day? Especially when the following pasages describe the Moab and Damascus and describe a leader of a nation being buried in a mass grave, just as Gog will be?

I am arguing for a higher standard of interpretation of what passages do and do not describe the last day, the day of Christ's return. When a higher standard is used it appears clear to me that the scripture is describing 2 different days when the term DOTL is used.

And we should be looking for this type of thing because God has done something similarly in the past. God used 2 totally different descriptions in separate passages of scripture to describe one messiah. Why could He not now be using the same term, the DOTL, to describe 2 different and separate future events? The precedent has already been set.

As far as Isa. 13, i do believe that passage is describing a future destruction of Babylon, just not on the last day. Isa. 13 and the passages surrounding it are more consistent with Gog-magog. And, as it appears there are certain parallels in events between armageddon and Gog-magog, a destruction of a Babylon would appear to occur around the time of both battles. That is probably why Rev. 17 and 18 just don't seem to be describing the same city and why the fall of Babylon in Rev. is repeated, 'Babylon is fallen, is fallen', suggesting 2 destructions of a Babylon.

And Babylon in Isa.13 and Jer. 50 and 51 is destroyed by men, the northern army and the Medes, while the Babylon in Rev. 16 at Christ's return suffers wrath directly from God. The Babylon in Isa. 13 is destroyed in the context of Gog-magog, i believe, as is the Babylon in Jer. 50 and 51, which is also associated with the destruction of Damascus. And if Gog comes early, if Gog comes at the beginning of the week, then there is only one nation that currently would appear to be Babylon. I believe Isa. 13 is discussing the destruction of the US. And on that day the sun and moon will be darkened and not by supernatural means.
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Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:00 pm

Seeker, interesting interpretation of Dan. 9 :26 there. So if i understand you right, if i read just what it says, then the city and the sanctuary are destroyed before the covenant is confirmed and the AOD is set up? That is exactly what it says according to the way you interpret this passage. Interesting viewpoint there.

seriously, no scripture that i can find describes the AC as destroying Jerusalem, the city of Dan. 9:26. At the rapture of the 2 witnesses the city is still standing and people are still living in it.

In Zech 14 the AC is capturing the city at Christ's return, and 1/2 of the city goes into exile which would mean 1/2 are still living there. We know they are still living there because they flee through the valley Jesus creates. One would suppose that if people are still living there the city will still be standing and not be destroyed as Dan. 9 suggests.

And no scripture clearly states that the temple will be destroyed by the AC. The best one could come up with would be the outer court being given to the gentiles and the city being trampled on, which is a far cry from the description of being destroyed.

It would appear more likely that the destruction of the city and the sanctuary described in Dan. 9 was a past event. it is described before 'the end' will come like a flood, and before the covenant and the AOD.

Which would appear to make the 'people' of the prince that destroy the city and the sanctuary out to be the Romans. So if you are stating that the prince to come is the AC, then it would appear that his people are from Rome.

At least that is what Dan. 9 appears to be saying, i am just reading what it says. lol who's rre? rapture ready everyone?
Last edited by 1whowaits on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:01 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

If the events in Isaiah 13 did not happen back then, how do you presume that any of it was fufilled? Is it not possible for the Medes to attack again? Actually the part about Babylon wasn't fulfilled.

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
Isa 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
Isa 13:20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.


It says it will never be inhabited again after that point. Babylon continued in existence thriving for many years after the Medes attacked. So that battle did not fulfill the defeat experienced in Isa 13. In reality it hasn't been fulfilled yet. You can't say the words have been fulfilled as written. It is compared directly to Sodom and Gomorrah. Shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. God destroyed S&G and they have never been inhabited since.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:13 pm

Seeker, i am saying Isa 13 has had only partial fulfillment in the past, there is still fulfillment to come, and yes it will be like Sodom and gemorrah. But i believe the passage is not talking about Babylon at Christ's return, it is talking about the US, it is talking about us (if you live in the US).

if Gog-magog comes soon then we are the Babylon destroyed. The destruction of Isa. 13 and Jer. 50 and 51 and Rev. 18 is upon us. So please prove me wrong.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:35 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

Seeker, interesting interpretation of Dan. 9 :26 there. So if i understand you right, if i read just what it says, then the city and the sanctuary are destroyed before the covenant is confirmed and the AOD is set up? That is exactly what it says according to the way you interpret this passage. Interesting viewpoint there.


Dan 9:26 is talking about the AC. When is the AC in Jerusalem? At the AoD get it? What do you think this part of Dan 9:26 means?

Dan 9:26 ....and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The end of what? Unto the end of the war desolations are determined. End of what war? Maybe the war the AC started in Israel? The AC does all the things in Dan 9:26 through 9:27. They are in other parts of scripture attributed to him. He kills someone for 3 1/2 years.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


He is at war with the saints for 3 1/2 years.It all ends in Israel at Armageddon. The AoD that the AC causes is in Israel and then Jesus describes the worst tribulation the world will ever or has ever saw. Warns them to flee Judea. It begins and ends in Israel. He surrounds Jerusalem (Luke 21).

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

When you see Jerusalem compassed about with armies know its' desolation is near. It says it right there. When they see armies surround Jerusalem they know it is about to be destroyed. Luke 21 is a parallel account of Matthew 24. There are 12 verses in each chapter that match each other.

When they see the AoD flee...When they see Jerusalem surrounded flee...these are set in the same timeframe. After the flee warning in Matt 24 the worst trib ever. After the flee warning in Luke 21;

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


The AC does all these things and it can be confirmed in other scripture. I have found no scripture to confirm that there are two people in Dan 9:26-27.

seriously, no scripture that i can find describes the AC as destroying Jerusalem, the city of Dan. 9:26. At the rapture of the 2 witnesses the city is still standing and people are still living in it.


Has Jerusalem ever been totally destroyed? There are people living there today so 70 AD didn't totally destroy it either. Neither will the AC, God steps in and saves Israel before they are annihilated.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:45 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

if Gog-magog comes soon then we are the Babylon destroyed. The destruction of Isa. 13 and Jer. 50 and 51 and Rev. 18 is upon us. So please prove me wrong.


Well you got at least 7 years to think about it. The Gog war occurs at the end of the 7 years. Not getting into that agian it is already in this thread. I feel soon we will see an agreement among Arab enemies of Israel for a temp peace. That will settle this issue. The one that orchestrates it could quite likely be the AC, definitely the prime candidate. No one has done that yet so we are still waiting. But the time draws near I assure you.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:52 pm

Nonymouse, thanks for your kind comments.

Seeker, I don't follow your reasoning. The city and especially the sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD, that is not arguable. The passage does not say 'complete destruction' but the temple was completely destroyed and no stone was left upon another as Jesus said.

The passage also says war will contiue until the end which is pretty much self evident. This is stated before the covenant is mentioned so i am not sure how you get war after the AOD out of this.

And clearly scripture says Jerusalem is still around when Jesus returns so i don't see how you get Jerusalem or the temple destroyed by the AC out of any passage.

Clearly you are trying to make a case that there is no RRE. Perhaps it might be easier to just say that the 'prince who is to come' is not the AC. If the prince is not the AC, then the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, the Romans, are not associated with the AC, they are not his people. So perhaps no RRE.

This would appear to be an easier explanation if you want to go that route. After all, who says the prince who is to come is definitely the AC? Titus, the roman general who later became emperor (a prince who was to come), could have have already fulfilled this role. To say that the prince who is to come is the AC is at best a guess, it cannot be proven one way or the other....yet.
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Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:02 am

Hi 1whowaits,

Seeker, I don't follow your reasoning. The city and especially the sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD, that is not arguable. The passage does not say 'complete destruction' but the temple was completely destroyed and no stone was left upon another as Jesus said.


That’s the point I am trying to make. They were destroyed but the city wasn’t totally destroyed as we know. We know there will be another temple with daily sacrifices. We know the AC takes those sacrifices away. We know the AC surrounds Jerusalem. We know the AC attacks Jerusalem. We know the AC starts the worst war ever in Israel. Why is it so hard to believe then that Daniel 9:26-27 is talking about one person? Everything the prince does in Dan 9:26, the AC does in other parts of scripture.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Dan 9:26-27 without a doubt both refer to the same person. Scripture shows this person doing everything that the AC is shown to do in other verses of scripture. If the actual AC does everything in Dan 9:26-27 and 26-27 can be shown to refer to the same person then how can you say the AC will not fulfill all these things?

And think about the 70 weeks for a minute. The 69th ended with Jesus’s death. The 70th begins with the AC. 70 AD is not part of the 69 weeks or the 70th week. It was after the 69th but not in the 70th. The events in Dan 9:26-27 occur during the 70th week. We are not and have not been in the 70th week yet. If these prophecies take place in the 70th week then 70 AD can be eliminated because it was outside the 70 weeks. The same way Rome was skipped in Dan 8, it is also skipped in Dan 9. Rome existed outside of the 69th or 70th week therefore could not fulfill prophecies in the 70th week.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:34 am

Hi brother Seeker, :mrgreen:

The AOD is an act. That act was committed by Antiochus. And will be repeated during the Antichrist's reign.


Point 1
: The act of the Abomination of Desolatiion during the Antichrist's reign occures in the end times... the last seven years.
We agree that the AOD during the Antichrist's reign occures at the mid-point of those seven years.

The act of the AOD committed in Daniel 11:31 is placed in the text BEFORE the end times are mentioned in Daniel 11:35.
Also, AFTER the particular act of the AOD of Daniel 11:31, MANY DAYS pass in Daniel 11:33 before the time of the end begins in Daniel 11:35.

11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


Point 2: What are the odds?

What are the odds that out of only a handful of kings that were successors as the Northern King of Alexanders four break up kingdoms - as one of them Antiochus Ephinanes of meeting every one of the prophecies regarding the exploits of the king of Daniel 11:21-31 in the specific order of events? And who's ultimate act of desecration placed a statue in the temple which represented a man, himself, as god?

And of the fact that the Southern king, out of only a handful of historic kings that were in that position, also met those prophecies, in concert, with his battles with that northern king - as well?



Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:46 am

Hi Seeker,

That’s the point I am trying to make. They were destroyed but the city wasn’t totally destroyed as we know.


Oops, you better try another point :mrgreen: Hadrian was a ROMAN.

http://www.ctsp.co.il/LBS%20pages/LBS_h ... israel.htm
6-70 CE Rome directly controls through a series of procurators and puppet kings. Jews revolt and Titus quells revolt by destroying the Temple and the upper city.

70-135 CE Licking wounds, Jews began to flex national aspirations until Bar Kochba leads a revolt. Hadrian destroys the city and founds a pagan city in Jerusalem called Aelia Captolina.

http://www.aish.com/seminars/tunneltour/nf/nf17.htm (a Jewish site)
130 CE: Emperor Hadrian plows Temple Mount, as prophesied in Micha 3:12.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:50 am

Hi Doug,

What part of that Antiochus was dead when Jesus spoke these words do you not understand?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


As I keep saying it is utterly impossible that Antiochus fulfilled what Jesus was talking about. Jesus said Daniel wrote about what He was talking about.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:14 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

What part of that Antiochus was dead when Jesus spoke these words do you not understand?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


As I keep saying it is utterly impossible that Antiochus fulfilled what Jesus was talking about. Jesus said Daniel wrote about what He was talking about.

Peace,
Seeker


Seeker, what you are not grasping is that Jesus was talking about the ACT of the AOD that will occure during the end-times. That very specific type of ACT was committed historically by Antiochus Epihanes. The ACT is called the Abomination of Desolation. It is not limited to the end-times Antichrist.... which is what you are thinking.

Because Antiochus Epihanes committed that very specific type of ACT... we know that the image in Revelation 13 is not a hologram, not a painting, etc...none of those things.... but it will be a statue. That's what should be gleaned from Daniel 11:31... is that we have specific information according to what Antiochus did that we can apply to the future the AOD ACT that occures during the Antichrist's reign. Namely that the image will be a statue.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:32 am

70 weeks have been decreed for Israel to meet a set of conditions according to Daniel 9. Daniel 9:26-27 are contained within that particular prophecy concerning the 70 weeks.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


They are part of the prophecy about the 70 weeks which means they are part of the 70 weeks. The 69th week ended at the death of Jesus and the 70th week hasn’t begun. The prince shown in Dan 9:26 is also shown at the beginning and middle of the 70th week in Dan 9:27, prince in 9:26 and “he” in 9:27. Both of these are contained within the context of the main 70th week prophecy they are part of it therefore occur during some part of the 70 weeks. Dan 9:27 covers the entire span of the 7 years.

The confirmation of the covenant begins the 70th week, the AoD marks the middle, and “even until the consummation” marks the end. He will make it desolate even up to the consummation or end. Now look back into Dan 9:26 and you will see desolations are determined unto the end of the war. This is saying the same thing that the end of Daniel 9:26 is saying. Since they both refer to the same individual, both are within the 70 week prophecy, and agree with one another concerning desolations to the end; they are both within the 70th week as common sense tells us since the “prince” is referred to as “he” in the very next verse. It makes no sense to say these are different people at different times if you just read what it says.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:37 am

Hi Doug,

What you are failing to grasp is that Daniel 11:31 has never been fulfilled yet. It is the AoD that Jesus is talking about. That is why He refers us to Daniel. There is a clear link to the person who's description begins at Dan 11:21 to the last 7 years. Dan 11:31 is the specific AoD Jesus is talking about since the person that places it dies at the end of the last 7 years. There is no person change in Dan 11:21-45 it all talks about one man. Jesus said Daniel spoke about the event He was talking about. Dan 11:31 is this event which was future to the time of Jesus therefore Antiochus did not fulfill Dan 11:31.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:41 am

Anyway Doug it has been nice...lol until we spar again...time to move on

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:31 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,
What you are failing to grasp is that Daniel 11:31 has never been fulfilled yet. It is the AoD that Jesus is talking about.


Jesus is talking about the Act.... yes. And the specific act that will occure in the end times in Daniel 12. And the specific nature of that Act in Daniel 11:45 as committed by Antiochus Epiphanes.

Again, Seeker, what are the odds that Antiochus Epihanes, out of only a handful of kings that ruled the northern kingdom.... fulfilled every single one of those specific complex prophecies in Daniel 11:21 - 11:31 ?

Here is a link going into the very details....you have a scroll down to get to
Daniel 11:21-11:31 at this site... http://www.truthnet.org/Daniel/Chapter11/

There is no person change in Dan 11:21-45 it all talks about one man.

There is a person change when the timeframe switches to the END TIMES. The king in Daniel 11:36 is introduced after the time of the end is referred to in Daniel 11:35. And after many days, in Daniel 11:33.

Anitochus ended the torso of brass as he committed the ulitmate transgression - that is what is meant in Daniel 8 as the transgressors coming to a full at the end of THEIR KINGDOM - singular - the Greek Empire, the torso of brass. It is talking about the hellenization - that is, the trangressors spreading of the greek gods and cultural - as against the holy covenant that was between the Jews and God. The fullness was when Antiochus placed the statue of Zeus in the temple.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Daniel 8:23 above is the same transition that ends the Greek empire - the king of fierce countenance is introduced, just like in Daniel 11:36..... that abrupt switch from the timeframe of the torso of brass to the end times Antichrist of legs of iron, feet and toes of iron mixed with clay, is what has you buffaloed... :mrgreen:

The greek empire is long gone, brother Seeker.


Peace,

Doug L.
Last edited by Douggg on Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:33 am

Seeker wrote:Anyway Doug it has been nice...lol until we spar again...time to move on

Peace,
Seeker


Hey, don't quit on me now. I want you to address that "what are the odds" point. :answerthequestion:

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:00 am

Hey Doug,

I don't deal in odds I deal in scripture...lol

Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

He is introduced here

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Places the AoD here

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


Shows the same person dying right before the resurrection.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

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