Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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Seeker wrote:Hey Doug,
This thread is about disproving the ENP not proving Turkey. You want to discuss Turkey move it to the Turkey thread.
Peace,
Seeker
Mr Dan wrote:Hi Doug,
I wanted to answer your question before we went anymore off topic. In regards to the little horn refering to the size of the nation Im not sure I think thats what its refering to. Im more inclined to think it refers to a gathering of people or a political party likened perhaps to the Nazi socialist party in the early thirties or potentially a movement like hezbolah in Lebenon who wields political power but is a minority. I get that impression from the statement in Dan 11:23 "And after the league [made] with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people." Its not uncommen for a nation or province to have very small geographic boundries but to contain a very condensed population. Just my thoughts.
Seeker wrote:To suggest that these events occur and then God allows anyone to touch a hair of one of their heads just doesn’t match the words that are written. After Gog is defeated no-one touches Israel I assure you. These events occur just prior to the beginning of the millennium. This puts this in the same time frame as Armageddon and indeed they are the same battle. Gog is the one God spoke about who will come up against Israel just before He brings Israel back to Him. This is the day God speaks of throughout the bible when He will defeat the enemies of Israel personally.
Seeker wrote:Hi Triton57,
Who stands the mountains back up then?
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
They have to be up to be found no more in Israel in Rev 16.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Both settings are in Israel. So at the beginning of the last 7 years you think the mountains are thrown down, somehow erected back up, to be found no more in Rev 16. Makes more sense to just use a bit of common sense here. Every thing on earth will shake at the presence of God and then the mountains are thrown down. The whole world shakes at the presence of God, God brings Israel back to Him, and then allows the AC to persecute them, I doubt that, no one will touch Israel after they return to God. They will be His people from that day forward. God will not hide His face from them any longer after the Gog war. Believe what you want though. I clear my responsibility by showing you. It is on your shoulders to read it.
Peace,
Seeker
1. The passage in ezekiel doesn't appear to be absolute or all inclusive of all mountains, where the phrasing in revelation does at least appear to suggest that it applies to all mountains everywhere.
Israel enjoys a period of peace, then Gog attacks. God intervenes and destroys Gog. Everything on earth shakes at the presence of God, the mountains are thrown down, the steep places fall, and every wall falls to the ground. God destroyed Gog with overflowing rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
After this war; God is known in the eyes of many nations, the heathen will know He is the Holy One of Israel, God will make His name known in the midst of Israel, He will not let them pollute His name any longer, it will be the day God has spoken of, it will be the day that God will be glorified, the heathen will see the judgment that was executed and that it was the hand of God that delivered it, God will have mercy on the whole house of Israel, He will be jealous for His holy name, Israel will know that the Lord is their God, God will no longer hide His face from Israel, and God will have poured out His spirit on the house of Israel..
Seeker, if all the mountains are downed... then how can this verse in Zechariah 14 be fulfilled?
Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Seeker wrote:Seeker, if all the mountains are downed... then how can this verse in Zechariah 14 be fulfilled?
Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Learn how to read Doug.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
God flattens the mountains on His arrival. You say Ezekiel occurs before the 70th week. So Jesus puts His feet on the mount of Olives before the 70th week? The mountains are clearly thrown down in Eze 38. According to you that happens at the beginning of the week. But yet we see mountains still around when Jesus feet touch Jerusalem at the end of the 7 years. Still mountains in Israel they haven't been thrown down when Jesus lands. Thanks Doug even more proof Eze 38 has to be at the end of the 7 years.
Peace,
Seeker
You are the one who is saying all the mountains in the entire world are cast down when Ezek 38 occures.... yet, the Mt of Olives is split, not flatten and Zerchariah 14:5 says they flee to the valley of the mountains - so there have to be some mountains still standing at that time.
Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,
Now with your view on the other hand you have these mountains down before Jesus arrives at the end of the last 7 years. You say they fall on Gog and army and you place that war sometime before the covenant which means you say that somehow during the last 7 years these mountains are rebuilt.
Peace,
Seeker
bchandler wrote:Actually Javier Solana told us exactly what the ENP is... He told us in his own words that it was a confirmation of the barcelona process.
The so called road map for peace is part fo the barcelona process.
Solana told us that the ENP, confirmed, strengthened and gave "teeth" to the barcelona process.
This is very interesting wording... because when you look at the confirming covenant in Daniel it becomes clear that this confirmation may in fact not be THE covenant... but it may be THE confirmation of THE covenant. depending on how you choose to read those words in Daniel.
As far as the argument regarding greece or rome.... europ or turkey... I really don't care so much... as I am open to seeing and interpeting signs that point to other nations.
But... I think Doug makes an excellent point regarding the legs of iron, and that continuing into the end time kingdom of feet partly of Iron and partly clay.
If the Iron legs are indeed rome and not some other kingdom... I don't see how one can ascert that the beast kingdom is in fact some other kingdom... In order to overcome Doug's argument one must then show that the legs are not rome... because the feet are definitely of the same kingdom as the legs... according to prophecy.
besides... didn't the roman empire include greece in its day? And isn't greece either already part of or soon to become part of the EU?
Greece and rome have always seemed so closely related in history to me that I have difficulty seeing them as seperate kingdoms anyway...
With regard to your scriptural arguments... My perception is that you seem to be working very hard to make scripture fit your view... while ignoring the conflicts it creates...
Seeker wrote:Hi bchandler,With regard to your scriptural arguments... My perception is that you seem to be working very hard to make scripture fit your view... while ignoring the conflicts it creates...
This can be settled quite easily. Show the scriptures that show the events in Eze 38-39 occuring prior to the end of the last 7 years.
Douggg wrote:Brother Seeker, the arguments for the Roman Empire being the fourth empire are incredilbly sound.
But since you say the Roman Empire is not the fourth empire.... then rationally the Greek Empire must have continued from Antiochus IV Epiphanes time through Jesus's time right up to the present....
You have yet to provide any rationale to support that notion regarding the Greek Empire continuing from Alexander to present. please....![]()
Peace,
Doug L.
The shores of Greece's Aegean Sea saw the emergence of the first advanced civilizations in Europe whose impact is inseparable from today's western institutions and western cultural and political development. Home first to the Minoan and Mycenean worlds and above all the Classical civilization and its Hellenistic inheritor, Greece was then subject to Roman governance and in the process transformed Rome itself. Although the establishment of Roman rule did not break the continuity of Hellenistic society and culture, which remained essentially unchanged until the advent of Christianity, it did mark the end of Greek political independence. The Greek peninsula became a province of Rome, while Greek culture continued to dominate the eastern Mediterranean.
When the Roman Empire finally split in two, the Eastern Roman Empire, known as the Byzantine Empire and centered around Constantinople (known in ancient times as Byzantium), remained Greek in nature, encompassing Greece itself. During the Byzantine imperial period Greece experienced fluctuating fortunes, but succeeded in Hellenizing and institutionalizing most of its new invaders, and by the late 8th century Greeks from Sicily and Asia Minor were brought in as settlers. The 11th and 12th centuries are said to have been the Golden Age of Byzantine art in Greece, while the crusading epochs between 1204 and 1458 saw Greece hit by a series of non-Orthodox armies in the name of religion. The Byzantine era persisted, nevertheless, until the Fall of Constantinople on May 29, 1453, to the Ottoman Empire.
While the Ottomans were completing the main conquest of Greek Mainland Ottoman Greece, two Greek migrations occurred. The first saw the Greek intelligentsia migrate to Western Europe — especially to Italy — and was a significant factor in the advent of the Western European Renaissance. The second migration of Greeks left the plains of the Greek peninsula and resettled in the mountains, the islands and other Greek regions where the Ottomans were unable to create a permanent military and administrative presence. As a result some Greek mountain clans across the peninsula, as well as some islands, were able to maintain a status of independence. The millet system contributed to the ethnic cohesion of Orthodox Greeks by segregating the various peoples within the Ottoman Empire based on religion. Eventually, religion played an integral part in the formation of the Modern Greek and other post-Ottoman national identities. The Ottomans ruled Greece until the early 19th century. On March 25, 1821 the Greeks rebelled thus declaring their strong will for independence (Greek War of Independence). Their struggle ended in 1829, when the newly formed Greek state was finally created and recognized (History of modern Greece). In 1830, the Russian ex-minister of foreign affairs, Ioannis Kapodistrias, a noble Greek from the Ionian Islands, was chosen as the President of the new Republic. However, the Great Powers soon dissolved that republic and installed a monarchy. The first king, Otto, was of the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach. The War of Independence also set in motion the establishment of major new cities and centres of trade such as Hermoupolis, Athens and Pireaus. In 1843, King Otto was forced, as a result of an uprising, to grant his subjects a constitution and representative assembly. He was deposed in 1863, to be replaced by a Danish Prince who took the name George I of Greece and brought the Ionian Islands as a coronation gift from Britain.
Greece was growing economically, whilst becoming politically more liberal. In 1877, Prime Minister Charilaos Trikoupis curbed the power of the monarchy to interfere in the Assembly.
This period was punctuated by the undertaking of one of the largest construction initiatives in Europe: the creation of the Corinth Canal (1881 - 1893), and in 1896 the Olympic Games were revived in Athens, judged a success. As a result of the Balkan Wars of 1912-13, Crete, Chios, Samos, most of Epirus and southern Macedonia, including Thessaloniki, were incorporated into Greece. King George was assassinated in Thessaloniki in 1913 and succeeded by his Germanophile son, King Constantine I, whose struggle with Prime Minister Eleftherios Venizelos resulted in Greece's joining of the Entente against Germany and Austria, and the abdication of King Constantine in favour of his son, Alexander. A small part of Asia Minor, which was centred around the city of Smyrna (known today as İzmir) and still retained a majority Greek population, was awarded to Greece by the Great Powers for having sided with the entente powers in World War I against the Ottoman Empire. Very soon, 3 years later, Turkish nationalists, led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, denounced the Sultan's government in Istanbul and formed a new one in Ankara, eventually defeating the Greeks, (Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)) when the Great Powers stopped supplying the Greek armies
Following the withdrawal of Greek forces and the destruction of Smyrna, a new government was established. Soon afterwards, the Treaty of Lausanne was signed, fixing the borders to this date. A population exchange was included in the agreement and immediately afterward, around five hundred thousand Muslims then living in mainland Greek territory left for Turkey in exchange for more than 1.22 million Greek residents of Asia Minor (excluding Constantinople, Imvros and Tenedos).
In 1936, General Ioannis Metaxas established an authoritarian conservative dictatorship in Greece, known as the 4th of August Regime, and shortly before the outbreak of World War II a disputed referendum was held, resulting in a 'yes' to restore the monarchy under King George II.
On October 28, 1940, the Italian dictator Mussolini demanded that Greece allow Axis troops to enter the country and to surrender its arms; the Greek government gave what became known as the simple negative response of “No” (see Okhi Day) — thereby immediately siding with the Allies (see Military history of Greece during World War II). Italian troops poured over from Albania but were foiled by the Greeks at the Albanian front, giving the Allies their first victory against fascism (see Greco-Italian War). Since Hitler and his generals needed to secure their strategic southern flank, German forces, whose ranks included troops from Bulgaria and Italy, successfully invaded, and the occupation of Greece by Nazi Germany began in April–May, 1941 (see Battle of Greece). Greek partisan resistance to the occupation was fierce, often with bitter retaliation from the occupiers. Greek Resistance however, such as that waged in Crete, is believed to have forced a delay in German plans to initiate invasion against the Soviet Union, thereby extending the campaign into the punishing Russian winter, while the extremely heavy losses of German paratroop forces foiled a planned German campaign in the Middle East against British-held Iraq and its oil fields. Germany retained its grip on the country until 1944 when German troops withdrew. The Jewish community of Thessaloniki suffered the heaviest toll by far and the Greek economy languished.
fter liberation from Nazi Germany, Greece experienced an equally bitter civil war between the Greek Democratic Army and Hellenic Army lasting until 1949 when left-wing forces were defeated in the battle of Grammos-Vitsi. During the 1950s and 1960s, Greece experienced a gradual and consistent economic growth, aided by significant grants and loans by the United States through the Marshall Plan. However, starting in 1965, a period of turbulence and the subsequent political uncertainty led to a coup d’etat against the elected government and King Constantine II that took place in the dawn of April 21, 1967, and the establishment of a US-supported military junta (Regime of the Colonels). In the ensuing years, a number of sympathisers of the left, as well as a number of politicians and communists, were arrested and brutally tortured by the regime. Many politicians evaded capture and found political refuge in other European countries such as France and Sweden, but the then-head of state, King Constantine, officially acknowledged the new regime, which was also then duly recognized by the international community, and diplomatic relations continued; he attempted a counter coup in December, 1967 which was to fail, and he went to Rome in exile. The regime collapsed in July 1974.
Ex Premier Constantine Karamanlis was invited back on July 23, 1974 from Paris, where he resided since 1963. Marking the beginning of the Metapolitefsi era of Greek history, the plane carrying Constantine Karamanlis landed in Athens amidst massive celebrations and enormous crowds in Syntagma Square; Karamanlis was immediately appointed interim prime minister under President Gizikis, and founded the conservative New Democracy party, going on to win the ensuing elections by a large margin. Democracy was finally restored and a democratic republican constitution came into force in 1975. The monarchy was abolished by a referendum held that same year, denying King Constantine II and his family any access to the country until 2004. Meanwhile, another prominent figure of the past, politician Andreas Papandreou, had also returned from the United States, and founded the Panhellenic Socialist Party, or PASOK.
Karamanlis won the 1977 parliamentary elections, but resigned in 1980 giving way to George Rallis; Papandreou, however, won the elections held on October 18, 1981 by a landslide and formed the first socialist government in Greece's history. Papandreou dominated the Greek political stage for almost 15 years until his death in June 23, 1996, by which time Kostas Simitis, another prominent political figure of PASOK, had already succeeded him as Prime Minister. Simitis remained in office until March 7, 2004, when Kostas Karamanlis of the conservative New Democracy party won elections.
Greece became the tenth member of the European Union on January 1, 1981 and ever since the nation has experienced remarkable and sustained economic growth. Widespread investments in industrial enterprises and heavy infrastructure, as well as funds from the European Union and growing revenues from tourism, shipping and a fast growing service sector have raised the country's standard of living to unprecedented levels. The country adopted the Euro in 2001 and successfully organised the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens.
bchandler wrote:Regarding the extensive scripture you list and relist:
1. I think you are applying your assumptions to the interpretation.
2. You are clearly ignoring the differences between the descriptions of these two battles, while promoting the similarities.
3. You refuse to acknowledge that there are any areas that challenge your interpretation.
Doug has provided scripture... which you ignore, and then ask the same questions again.
The gog/magog battle takes place on the mountains of Israel. The battle of armageddon takes place in the valley of meggido.
Obviously not ALL mountains world wide are thrown down in Ezekiel, because shortly after this description we see God calling out a sword after gog/magog on all his holy mountains(in Israel). Where as in revelation the earthquake is apparently world wide and so powerful that it causes mountains to "not be found." This at least looks like it could possibly describe a worldwide flattening of mountains.. but it again is not explicitly declared.
One of these battles describes a large hail of fire and brimstone, the other battle does not... it describes a hail whose only apparent unique quality is it's extraodinary size.[/list]
bchandler wrote:That's just it... gog/magog is not all nations... it is a specific set of nations.
this is yet another distinction between gog/magog and armageddon.
the battle at meggido involves all nations who oppose Christ. Thanks for pointing this up.
prophecyrocks wrote:bchandler wrote:That's just it... gog/magog is not all nations... it is a specific set of nations.
this is yet another distinction between gog/magog and armageddon.
the battle at meggido involves all nations who oppose Christ. Thanks for pointing this up.
What does the verse say. Does it not have the word "ALL" ?
Douggg wrote:Israel is at peace when Gog/Magog attacks - which is not possible when the AOD is set up to be worshipped - as the Antichrist is in power for the last 42 months.
bchandler wrote:
Big difference... you cant just ignore it...
bchandler wrote:In addition to the previous difference... you also have to note the difference in the location of the battles...
One is in northern Israel on the Golan Heights... and the other is in the Valley of Meggido, further south and west of the description given for the gog/magog war.
bchandler wrote:Just because the nations will know that God did this thing in Israel doesn't mean they won't continue to rebel...
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