Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

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Postby Seeker on Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:32 am

Hi Doug,

Just deleted a post of mine that wasn't very nice. I will no longer respond to your comments as I honestly feel you just try to cause trouble.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:51 am

Seeker wrote:Hey Doug,

This thread is about disproving the ENP not proving Turkey. You want to discuss Turkey move it to the Turkey thread.

Peace,
Seeker


What!..... :mrgreen: .....and have my posts buried among press clipping after press clipping in the Turkey thread. :dizzy: Uh, no thank you.

Besides, I don't really want to discuss Turkey soley by itself, but to show that the Antichrist comes out of the Roman Empire and Europe..... which eliminates Turkey, Lebanon, Dubai... etc.... and that Gog/Magog is pretrib.

Those are the kind of things I want to discuss comprehensively...not fragmentized. So I will just start my own thread :mrgreen:


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Mr Dan on Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:08 am

Hi Doug,
I wanted to answer your question before we went anymore off topic. In regards to the little horn refering to the size of the nation Im not sure I think thats what its refering to. Im more inclined to think it refers to a gathering of people or a political party likened perhaps to the Nazi socialist party in the early thirties or potentially a movement like hezbolah in Lebenon who wields political power but is a minority. I get that impression from the statement in Dan 11:23 "And after the league [made] with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people." Its not uncommen for a nation or province to have very small geographic boundries but to contain a very condensed population. Just my thoughts.
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Postby Seeker on Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:51 am

I’ll try to summarize the points I have made in one post that show the ENP cannot be the covenant with many. To believe that the ENP is the covenant one has to believe that the EU is the Revived Roman Empire and that the Roman Empire fulfilled the prophecies of the 4th kingdom of Daniel.

To believe that Rome was the 4th kingdom is to say that Daniel really did not mean four. Daniel said that there would only be 4 kingdoms. He said the 4th kingdom will be led by the AC. The AC is a part of the 4th kingdom. The AC did not rule over Rome.

To overcome this one has to believe that the Roman Empire was the 4th kingdom and has either been ruling the world since that time or will be reborn sometime in the future to pick up where Rome left off. History clearly shows that the Roman Empire ceased to exist around 1500 AD when they were defeated by the Ottomans so number one is out.

The problem is that Daniel mentions no such time gap for the 4th kingdom. Daniel actually gives some very specific time frames for the 4th kingdom. He places the AC in existence during the last 7 years. The AC is the leader of the 4th kingdom therefore the 4th kingdom exists during the last 7 years. The Roman Empire ceased to exist around 1500 AD.

The AC is shown in Daniel 7 as the little horn. This little horn makes war with the saints and overcomes them for 3 ½ years until the time comes that the saints inherit the kingdom. This is at the end of the last 7 years. This clearly places the AC and the 4th kingdom in existence during the last 7 years. Again Rome was not led by the AC therefore could not be the 4th kingdom which is led by the AC.

This artificial insertion of Rome gets worse as the RRE theory continues. They have to insert people into scripture where the bible gives no indication that the person has changed. They can’t say Rome wasn’t the 4th so they must add to scripture to get it to look that way. Classic example is Dan 9:26-27.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Here the “he” in 9:27 is a clear reference back to the “prince that shall come”. The same person is being referenced in both verses. But this would mean Rome was not involved with these prophecies so they insert a dual fulfillment here. Rather than just reading what it says they say this doesn’t really reference the same person as it is written, but it references two separate people. Everything written in Dan 9:26-27 can be confirmed by other scripture to be perpetrated by the AC. There is no reason to insert an additional personality here. The bible confirms that the AC does all these things in other parts of scripture.

Chapters 8 & 9 of Daniel speak of the same vision from Dan 8. They say Antiochus fulfilled ½ of Dan 8 and the AC will fulfill the rest. They say 70 AD fulfilled part of Dan 9 they claim. So for the same vision they have two different parties spread a couple hundred years apart being responsible. They can’t have both done the first part of it. This is the danger of adding to the bible. It quickly begins to catch up with you.

Dan 11 they will also attribute to Antiochus but say there will be a future fulfillment. Dan 11:21-45 clearly speak of one individual yet they insert yet again an additional personality into scripture. Why; otherwise it would prove Rome doesn’t produce the AC if you actually just read what the bible says. It doesn’t stop there either.

They will go to Dan 2 and change the meaning of the dream. They have to because if they read what God writes it means it doesn’t match Rome again. They say the iron legs represent eastern and western Rome while God says the iron legs represent strength. The division of the kingdom they point to east/west yet again. God says the kingdom will be divided partly strong and partly broken. They literally have to add their own words to the interpretation God gives to make Rome fit.

Using the classic Rev 17 RRE argument the scripture actually turns out to argue against Rome. The bible consistently shows the enemies of Israel to be her immediate neighbors. The situation on the ground in the world confirms this. Yet they say Europe is the enemy of the last days toward Israel. Any nation that is specifically mentioned in descriptions of the army invading Israel near the end, are always Muslim. Yet presented with all this they will still march on espousing a theory with no biblical backing. Everyone is welcome to believe what they wish but at least look into the things I point out for yourselves. I was RRE until I started actually looking at these things. Anyway have beaten this one to death so will move on.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:05 pm

Mr Dan wrote:
Hi Doug,
I wanted to answer your question before we went anymore off topic. In regards to the little horn refering to the size of the nation Im not sure I think thats what its refering to. Im more inclined to think it refers to a gathering of people or a political party likened perhaps to the Nazi socialist party in the early thirties or potentially a movement like hezbolah in Lebenon who wields political power but is a minority. I get that impression from the statement in Dan 11:23 "And after the league [made] with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people." Its not uncommen for a nation or province to have very small geographic boundries but to contain a very condensed population. Just my thoughts.


So what do you do with....

8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and
for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

In that case, I would say "notable" referes to the fact that the four generals who took over the four break up kingdoms - were known already. And that the little horn at the time of his emergence will be a realtive unknown.

On the issue of the little horn designation being something other than a small country...maybe. But I don't see any group like the Nazi's in any of the end-times prophecies. What I do know from history is that...

The Ram in verse 3....the two horns....kings of the medes and persians verse 20... were a large empire.

The Goat in verse 5..... the goat had a notable horn between his eyes...Alexander, the Great....was also from a large empire at the time.

So, since the little horn is compared to those other horns which represented kings from larger areas.... then the little horn would seem to me to represent coming out of a small area... or country. Or it could just be that he is an unknown at the time of his emergence. I think it probably means both.

Alexander, being notable, too me, means he is more well known to people... than the medes and persian kings.... and also the breakup kings are more notable... the ptolemys and seleucids... in particular.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:18 pm

Brother Seeker, the arguments for the Roman Empire being the fourth empire are incredilbly sound.

But since you say the Roman Empire is not the fourth empire.... then rationally the Greek Empire must have continued from Antiochus IV Epiphanes time through Jesus's time right up to the present....

You have yet to provide any rationale to support that notion regarding the Greek Empire continuing from Alexander to present. please.... :answerthequestion:



Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Sun Jan 14, 2007 8:08 pm

Seeker wrote:To suggest that these events occur and then God allows anyone to touch a hair of one of their heads just doesn’t match the words that are written. After Gog is defeated no-one touches Israel I assure you. These events occur just prior to the beginning of the millennium. This puts this in the same time frame as Armageddon and indeed they are the same battle. Gog is the one God spoke about who will come up against Israel just before He brings Israel back to Him. This is the day God speaks of throughout the bible when He will defeat the enemies of Israel personally.

How can these events of Gog/Magog attacking Israel if Israel is, at that time, protected in the wilderness from the dragon? How would the Gog/Magog invaders be coming against a safe and secure Israel if 2/3 of them were just killed some 3 1/2 years before and they are now being protected and refined through the fire in the wilderness? What are the conditions Gog/Magog is attacking?
    Ezekiel 38:10-12
    Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
Does this sound like the condition after the abomination of desolation, when 2/3 of Israel is killed in the time of Jacob's trouble?

To me, the language places this after God has gathered them out of the nations and put them in the land. They clearly have something that the attackers want because part of their stated motivation is to take spoil and prey (killing Jews). The only times this attack would fit is before the abomination of desolation or at the end of the millennium. However, it can't be the end of the millennium because when God intervenes, from that point on, "And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." If Christ has been ruling from Jerusalem for 1,000 years already, I don't picture Him letting Israel pollute His name anymore after that.

This leaves one time, very soon imo, before the abomination of desolation. Israel may not be living in complete safety, but statistically it's safer to live in Jerusalem than some US cities. Tours are regularly going through there. It's still propspering, more so than some of its surrounding Islamic nations. I think since the Lebanon-Israeli war that status of safety has changed, but I also believe we are seeing the buildup to the Gog/Magog invasion. There's already some Russian and Turkish "peacekeeping" troops on Israel's Northern border. I could be wrong, if so, we'll know soon enough. It just seems to be building quickly.
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:28 am

Hi Triton57,

Who stands the mountains back up then?

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

They have to be up to be found no more in Israel in Rev 16.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Both settings are in Israel. So at the beginning of the last 7 years you think the mountains are thrown down, somehow erected back up, to be found no more in Rev 16. Makes more sense to just use a bit of common sense here. Every thing on earth will shake at the presence of God and then the mountains are thrown down. The whole world shakes at the presence of God, God brings Israel back to Him, and then allows the AC to persecute them, I doubt that, no one will touch Israel after they return to God. They will be His people from that day forward. God will not hide His face from them any longer after the Gog war. Believe what you want though. I clear my responsibility by showing you. It is on your shoulders to read it.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:04 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Triton57,

Who stands the mountains back up then?

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

They have to be up to be found no more in Israel in Rev 16.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Both settings are in Israel. So at the beginning of the last 7 years you think the mountains are thrown down, somehow erected back up, to be found no more in Rev 16. Makes more sense to just use a bit of common sense here. Every thing on earth will shake at the presence of God and then the mountains are thrown down. The whole world shakes at the presence of God, God brings Israel back to Him, and then allows the AC to persecute them, I doubt that, no one will touch Israel after they return to God. They will be His people from that day forward. God will not hide His face from them any longer after the Gog war. Believe what you want though. I clear my responsibility by showing you. It is on your shoulders to read it.

Peace,
Seeker


Seeker, the mountains in Ezekiel 38 are the mountains in the area of Israel, and is one of the things that God does to destroy the invading Gog/Magog armies.

Why would God throw down the mountains in South America for example when the invasion of Gog/Magog is in the land of Israel? In Ezekiel 38:19 it says a shaking in the land of Israel.... not the whole world.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby bchandler on Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:17 am

Seeker let's not be so selective with verses...

Here is the whole of the relevant passage:

    Eze 38:20 And the fish of the sea, and the birds of the heavens, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men on the face of the earth, shall quake at My face. And the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    Eze 38:21 And I shall call a sword against him on all My mountains, declares the Lord Jehovah. Each man's sword shall be against his brother.
    Eze 38:22 And I will judge him with a plague and with blood, and an overflowing shower, and hailstones. I will rain fire and brimstone on him, and on his bands, and on the many peoples who are with him.
    Eze 38:23 And I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself. And I will be known in the eyes of the many nations, and they shall know that I am Jehovah.


Notice it does say the mountains are thrown down... but then in verse 21 God says he will call for a sword against Gog on all his mountains.

So apparently not all mountains are thrown down... or there wouldn't be any mountains left for God to call a sword out after him upon.

Now let's look at revelation 16:

    Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a great voice came from the throne from the temple of Heaven, saying, It has happened!
    Rev 16:18 And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since man came into being on the earth, such a huge earthquake, so great!
    Rev 16:19 And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.
    Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and mountains were not found.
    Rev 16:21 And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven upon men. And men blasphemed God from the plague of the hail, because its plague is exceedingly great.

There are some significant things to note between these 2 passages:

    1. The passage in ezekiel doesn't appear to be absolute or all inclusive of all mountains, where the phrasing in revelation does at least appear to suggest that it applies to all mountains everywhere.

    2. In the Ezekiel battle it hails fire and brimstone, in the meggido battle it apparently hails ice. We are given no other description except "a great hail." and in verse 21 we are told the size of the hailstones.

    3. God destroys Gog/Magog on his mountains, God destroys the gathered armies of the world in the valley of meggido.


So.. there are distinct differences in these passages that seem to prevent us rectifying these two battles as being one and the same. IMHO

Aside: George Paton once remarked after looking upon the valley of meggido that the valley was the worlds most perfect battle field, and that he would love to fight a battle there.
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:30 am

Hi bchandler,

1. The passage in ezekiel doesn't appear to be absolute or all inclusive of all mountains, where the phrasing in revelation does at least appear to suggest that it applies to all mountains everywhere.


Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


They are gathered at Armageddon which is in Israel. God pours His wrath upon those attacking Israel at a place called Armageddon which is in Israel. The setting for these verses is Israel.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Earthquakes, mountains thrown down, great hail, and fowls feasting on flesh, looks quite similar to me.

You can argue that this isn’t the end of the last 7 years all you want but you cannot produce any scripture showing the following events from Eze 38-39 occurring at any other time than the end of the last 7 years. List all the scripture you can find showing these following events at any other time than the end of the last 7 years and then I’ll list all that I have showing these events at the end of the last 7 years.

Israel enjoys a period of peace, then Gog attacks. God intervenes and destroys Gog. Everything on earth shakes at the presence of God, the mountains are thrown down, the steep places fall, and every wall falls to the ground. God destroyed Gog with overflowing rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

After this war; God is known in the eyes of many nations, the heathen will know He is the Holy One of Israel, God will make His name known in the midst of Israel, He will not let them pollute His name any longer, it will be the day God has spoken of, it will be the day that God will be glorified, the heathen will see the judgment that was executed and that it was the hand of God that delivered it, God will have mercy on the whole house of Israel, He will be jealous for His holy name, Israel will know that the Lord is their God, God will no longer hide His face from Israel, and God will have poured out His spirit on the house of Israel..


I have already shown you where the earthquake, hail,..etc are. Show me where there are events similar to the ones in Eze 38 anywhere in scripture prior to the wrath of God. Then go find when Israel knows her God from that day forward. Go find when God pours His spirit out on Israel. Go find the rest of the list above. If you want to debate with me then provide scripture showing me that these events are shown to occur at any time other than God’s wrath. Put your money where your mouths are. This isn’t particularly aimed at you Bchandler but I do require the same proof from you as I do from anyone. I want to see examples of everything I have listed above. All those things were extracted from Eze 38-39. Show me where each of these items occur at any other time than God’s wrath. Until you can prove what you say it might be best to hold your tongue. I can prove everything I say with other scripture regarding Eze 38-39.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:59 am

Here I made it easier for you all. Just copy this and paste matching verses beneath the corresponding verse in Eze. I am working on my version. We'll see who's theory matches Eze 38-39 the best.

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:12 pm

Seeker, if all the mountains are downed... then how can this verse in Zechariah 14 be fulfilled?

Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:20 pm

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Isa 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.

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Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
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Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealou

Zec 8:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury.

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Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

Nah 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

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Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Isa 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Eze 13:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in my fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in mine anger, and great hailstones in my fury to consume it.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

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Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Eze 25:17 And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.

Eze 28:24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.


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Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

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Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

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Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

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Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

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Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.

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Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.

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Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

Isa 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Zec 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.

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Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.

Mic 4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

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Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Isa 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
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Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

Postby benny balerio on Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:22 pm

[quote="Douggg"]:answerthequestion:

Okay, brother Steve, I will tell you why the ENP is not the confiriming of the covenant of Daniel 9.

It is because in the midst of the seven years the Antichrist breaks the covenant that he had confirmed stopping the daily sacrifice. [u]What covenant established the daily sacrifice[/u]?

Well, it wasn't any peace covenant - that established the sacrifices in the TEMPLE to begin with - THINK! - :mrgreen:

The Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, declares that he is god, and also that the Abomination of Desolation is setup to be worshipped.... i.e. IMHO the man's face of the image in Daniel 2, was that of the Antichrist, not Nebuchanezzar, as the image is what the false prohet has the world build, but that is another topic. [u]There is no peace covenant spoken of in Daniel 9[/u]. People [u]are assuming[/u] that because the Antichrist in Daniel 8 brings many people to destruction via peace, that the covenant in Daniel 9 is a peace covenant....
which is also the premise of the ENP notion. However, the covenant that will be confirmed is the one that established the animal sacrifices - remember Daniel 9 is specifically relavent to the Jews - is the MT SINAI covenant.

The Antichrist will be a Jew who comes to their rescue riding a white horse and they will think that he is their long awaited messiah. He will deceive them in to thinking that yes he is indeed their messiah - by confirming the MT SINAI covenant which is the basis for Judaism - so that the animal sacrifices will be reinstituted, but stopped when the Antichrist 3 1/2 years later declares himself to be god. [color=red][b]The animal sacrifices that are going to be stopped in Daniel 9 have nothing to do with the ENP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are they going to start up animal sacrifices again on Jan 1, 2007?[/b]
[/color]


Peace,

Doug L.[/quote]I agree with Doug 100%..........At this moment,world powers are wanting to negotiate the final status of Jerusalem,....To do this, the status of the Temple Mount issue must be included!....Lets look at the present situation going on at this moment....The A.O.C. thru the United Nations is rising to power' which will lead to a one world church, which I think that we can all agree with, but is not yet in complete full swing. We know that a false prophet is to arise that will call fire out of the sky, which will deceive many. Think about it......once the rapture comes to pass ....a lot of people are going to get religious overnight, and when the false prophet performs his deceiving miracles.....it will place the false church into full swing.The purpose of this coming false prophet is to direct all worship towards the anti-christ.With the event of the rapture, and the deceiving miracles from the false prophet, in combination, of the prophecy of Isaiah 17;1....that may happen just shortly before or after the rapture........The arab nations would agree to anything that the ac would suggest pertaining to the jews building the third temple.Considering that the world powers are wanting to deal with the status of Jerusalem,and that the Iranian nuclear crisses including the involvement of Syria is presently before our eyes, strongly indicates that the ac is about to step onto the world stage......which to the pre-trib believer tells us that the rapture is breathtakenly near.......WE are now wittnessing the moment of truth, and we have not long to wait...................benny
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:34 pm

Seeker, if all the mountains are downed... then how can this verse in Zechariah 14 be fulfilled?

Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Learn how to read Doug.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


God flattens the mountains on His arrival. You say Ezekiel occurs before the 70th week. So Jesus puts His feet on the mount of Olives before the 70th week? The mountains are clearly thrown down in Eze 38. According to you that happens at the beginning of the week. But yet we see mountains still around when Jesus feet touch Jerusalem at the end of the 7 years. Still mountains in Israel they haven't been thrown down when Jesus lands. Thanks Doug even more proof Eze 38 has to be at the end of the 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:52 pm

Seeker wrote:
Seeker, if all the mountains are downed... then how can this verse in Zechariah 14 be fulfilled?

Zech 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Learn how to read Doug.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


God flattens the mountains on His arrival. You say Ezekiel occurs before the 70th week. So Jesus puts His feet on the mount of Olives before the 70th week? The mountains are clearly thrown down in Eze 38. According to you that happens at the beginning of the week. But yet we see mountains still around when Jesus feet touch Jerusalem at the end of the 7 years. Still mountains in Israel they haven't been thrown down when Jesus lands. Thanks Doug even more proof Eze 38 has to be at the end of the 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker


:mrgreen: You are kinda turning around my view, aren't you? :lalala:

I am not the one saying all of the mountains in Israel are cast down in Israel when Ezek 38 occures - pretrib - I am saying the mountains where Gog's army wiil be buried are cast down - upon his army.... to the valley where Gog's army will be buried....fire and brimstone.

You are the one who is saying all the mountains in the entire world are cast down when Ezek 38 occures.... yet, the Mt of Olives is split, not flatten and Zerchariah 14:5 says they flee to the valley of the mountains - so there have to be some mountains still standing at that time.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:24 pm

Hi Doug,

You are the one who is saying all the mountains in the entire world are cast down when Ezek 38 occures.... yet, the Mt of Olives is split, not flatten and Zerchariah 14:5 says they flee to the valley of the mountains - so there have to be some mountains still standing at that time.


There is nothing that conflicts with my view in the mountains being there after Jesus arrives at the end of the last 7 years. As they are thrown down during God's wrath.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:38 pm

Hi Doug,

Now with your view on the other hand you have these mountains down before Jesus arrives at the end of the last 7 years. You say they fall on Gog and army and you place that war sometime before the covenant which means you say that somehow during the last 7 years these mountains are rebuilt.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby bchandler on Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:15 pm

Seeker,

I am sorry, but your written tone is extremely condecending IMO. Doug has made legitimate points and asked legitimate questions... no where did I see him mistreat you in his words.

Why are you reacting with anger toward those who bring valid questions regarding your views... I have acknowledged your points. I have even agreed with some... but you ignore the conflicts within your own arguments and pour angry words out on others.

Perhaps it would be best if you didn't engage in debate if you can't stay focused on logic and reason, rather than emotion and personal attacks.

Your condecention toward Doug in telling him to learn how to read was completely uncalled for.

I am sure we all have completely adequate reading skills... but it seems you are more interested in creating conflict than in a "learning, and edifying discussion, or study."

I really don't understand the negativity, and hostility... it grieves me to see it and concerns me with regard to your current state.
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:27 pm

Hi bchandler,

I understand your concern but perhaps you should review the past year worth of debate between Doug and myself. Doug is constantly attacking my position on Turkey. Making belittling comments and such all the time. I have had enough of it and am calling him to scripture. It isn't like this isn't the 100th time Doug and I have had this discussion. We jab at each other for sure but we also throughly cover a topic in the process. In the end we drift back away and then clash again down the road. I just want to settle the Ezekiel issue once and for all as he constantly is bringing it up.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby bchandler on Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:54 pm

Seeker,

I have seen many of your "clashes" with Doug over time...

I know we all don't behave perfectly, at all times... but it might help if you conceded some of Doug's points... he has made some excellent arguments and points over time... and i have rarely if ever seen you acknowledge any of his points or any weaknesses in your own logic, or arguments.

I think you need to ask yourself... what is this all about Seeker... is it about you being right? or is it about you and Doug learning from each other and instructing each other more perfectly.

You can't have fruitful discussions if you won't acknowledge the weak points in your own arguments.. .or the areas you struggle with, or where you are uncertain... or where there could be multiple interpretations of certain information besides your own...

I don't ever recall Doug belittling you, or accusing you of being anything less than intelligent, or of being unschooled.

If you are really that hot under the collar about it... maybe you need to step away from the argument, and cool off before you respond.

I enjoy some of your arguments and always find others views interesting, and sometimes they add to my understanding of the word, of God, of his love, etc... and that is exciting and wonderful...

but the way you have engaged Doug and I here is not edifying, or uplifting, or instructional... it seems berating and belittling to me... almost as if you truly believe we are stupid, and incapable of grasping your arguments... when the truth is... we simply see things differently and disagree... and on non-salvation doctrine... sometimes.. it's ok to disagree... or think differently... it causes us to study the word for ourselves and learn more for ourselves... and that is always good.

YHWH has shown me such incredible things through people on this board... and when we engage in honest, open, and edifying debate and study... this always seems to be the end result.. even when we still diagree we come to know God more... and that is a good thing.

I am trying to find what if anything about your most recent way of handling Doug and his legitimate questions and arguments is edifying... and I am finding it difficult to get past your own anger...

I am not perfect... I responded to Last Trumpet in another thread today in a way that was less than edifying... by using sarcasm to make a point... but I am sure if I had slowed down I could have handled it better.

With regard to your scriptural arguments... My perception is that you seem to be working very hard to make scripture fit your view... while ignoring the conflicts it creates...

We all tend to do this to some extent... and at some point we have to say... I don't know the answer... and/or let's study this or that... but intellectual honesty must also pervade and acknowledging the strength and weaknesses of each others arguments must take place or it is no longer a debate... it becomes a lecture... in which a person who assumes they are 100% right force feeds their opinions down everyone elses throats...
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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:01 pm

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

Now with your view on the other hand you have these mountains down before Jesus arrives at the end of the last 7 years. You say they fall on Gog and army and you place that war sometime before the covenant which means you say that somehow during the last 7 years these mountains are rebuilt.

Peace,
Seeker


No, I am not no saying that at all. I repeat - not all mountains in Israel will come down during the invasion of Gog/Magog - just those mountains that God uses to destroy Gog/Magog's army. Take a look at this map of Israel that I found a couple of years ago and see if you can figure outh the route the invading armies will take.

http://www.eyeonisrael.com/map_Israel.html

map 1 in particular shows some prominent mountains bordering Syria - with highway access. I also think that they could try to come down the Jordan river valley with has mountains on both sides, and there is a highway coming into that valley from the east.

Also, the invaders may come up through the Negev desert from the South - which has many barren mountains - and I think is the general area of where Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with fire and brimstone?

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby mommyjen on Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:05 pm

So is the ENP a covenant or what?? :sofa: :lol:
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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:10 pm

mommyjen wrote:So is the ENP a covenant or what?? :sofa: :lol:


uh...what's the ENP got to do with this thread... :sunshine: ?

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby bchandler on Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:19 pm

Actually Javier Solana told us exactly what the ENP is... He told us in his own words that it was a confirmation of the barcelona process.

The so called road map for peace is part fo the barcelona process.

Solana told us that the ENP, confirmed, strengthened and gave "teeth" to the barcelona process.

This is very interesting wording... because when you look at the confirming covenant in Daniel it becomes clear that this confirmation may in fact not be THE covenant... but it may be THE confirmation of THE covenant. depending on how you choose to read those words in Daniel.

As far as the argument regarding greece or rome.... europ or turkey... I really don't care so much... as I am open to seeing and interpeting signs that point to other nations.

But... I think Doug makes an excellent point regarding the legs of iron, and that continuing into the end time kingdom of feet partly of Iron and partly clay.

If the Iron legs are indeed rome and not some other kingdom... I don't see how one can ascert that the beast kingdom is in fact some other kingdom... In order to overcome Doug's argument one must then show that the legs are not rome... because the feet are definitely of the same kingdom as the legs... according to prophecy.

besides... didn't the roman empire include greece in its day? And isn't greece either already part of or soon to become part of the EU?

Greece and rome have always seemed so closely related in history to me that I have difficulty seeing them as seperate kingdoms anyway...
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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:07 pm

bchandler wrote:Actually Javier Solana told us exactly what the ENP is... He told us in his own words that it was a confirmation of the barcelona process.

The so called road map for peace is part fo the barcelona process.

Solana told us that the ENP, confirmed, strengthened and gave "teeth" to the barcelona process.

This is very interesting wording... because when you look at the confirming covenant in Daniel it becomes clear that this confirmation may in fact not be THE covenant... but it may be THE confirmation of THE covenant. depending on how you choose to read those words in Daniel.

As far as the argument regarding greece or rome.... europ or turkey... I really don't care so much... as I am open to seeing and interpeting signs that point to other nations.

But... I think Doug makes an excellent point regarding the legs of iron, and that continuing into the end time kingdom of feet partly of Iron and partly clay.

If the Iron legs are indeed rome and not some other kingdom... I don't see how one can ascert that the beast kingdom is in fact some other kingdom... In order to overcome Doug's argument one must then show that the legs are not rome... because the feet are definitely of the same kingdom as the legs... according to prophecy.

besides... didn't the roman empire include greece in its day? And isn't greece either already part of or soon to become part of the EU?

Greece and rome have always seemed so closely related in history to me that I have difficulty seeing them as seperate kingdoms anyway...


Hi bchandler, yes Greece is part of the EU, but what I am looking at is in Daniel 7 the little horn comes up among 10 kings,
diverse in some manner from them... we don't know how for sure.

So if he comes up among ten already kings - then he is probably not going to appear as one those ten ings. I think the WEU, which is the military alliance of the EU has some real possibility of being the ten kings. There are ten members to the WEU. Greece is one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WEU

It is not an absolute certain, but I think that the term "little horn" could imply the size of the country that the Antichrist will appear from.

And that country must be within the territory of one of Alexanders' break up kingdoms.... and IMHO another requirement based upon Daniel 8:9, that king must appear from an area that is northwest of Israel.

Greece is northwest of Israel, and one of Alexander's breakup kingdoms areas.... but it is already a block member, i.e. one of the ten kings...assuming the WEU is the organization. Plus it is fairly large.

Some of the Balkan countries however, could be considered AMONG the ten WEU nations, but not one of the kings themselfs, which would fit the description of the little horn appearing among the ten kings in Daniel 7 - also they are northwest of Israel - also they are small - also they are of the area of one of Alexander's breakup kingdoms.

So, in theory, the Antichrist could appear first from one of those Balkan countries - I am thinking Macedonia, the country (Western Greece is also called macedonia as a region) - which would be among the ten kings of the WEU.

Right now I think the WEU has a peace keeping force in the general area with the serbs/croatians. I don't know if that is a factor or not.

But as I have put forth, I think that the Antichrist will be perceived by the Jews as their messiah. But how, in what scenario could that happen?

Well, I think that Gog/Magog is pretrib - the seven year of buring fuel as being the same 7 years of Daniel 9's final week.

Currently there is no way IMHO of the Jews ever being able to build a temple on the temple moutn as long as Islam exists. So
Islam is going to have to be removed - which Gog/Magog will basically accomplish.

The Jews are expecting a King David military type of messiah - who will fight the battles of God. That point is made by Maimodes, their main middle ages theologian,

So if the Europeans are sent into shock waves of the Russians perhaps moving into the middle east - to monopolize their supply of oil - and that they already have a peace keeping force in Lebanon right now - then they may decide to intervene militarily. And that is when I think the Antichrist is going to appear - as someone appointed to lead that force - southeast toward Israel.

That God destroys Gog/Magog could be perceived by the Jews as paving the way for their messiah to come. And if the Antichrist, who is very outspoken as the bible says, is a Jew who's incentive, not only to lead the WEU to stop the Gog/Magog invasion....but also to save his people.... then that would to them be the beginning of the messianic era. With Isalm soundly destroyed, and with their perceived messiah on hand, they could rebuild their temple... and start up animal sacrifices again. That is the scenario that I am looking at.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Mr Dan on Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:33 pm

Actually all those empires have shared the same lands at one point or another. If you have any subscriptions to archeological digests or caught any one of the great history or discovery channle shows pertaining to arcitecture in the anchient world its incredible to see how those societies grew upon eachother and incorporated eachothers building techniques into their own societies while making it distinctly their own. Even today you see in many places in America monuments that are testamony to builders of the anchient world but you can allso see heavy influences in the pottery and artwork of the Scandanavian people who lived and interacted on the borders of the Byzantenes around the 800's. While it holds true to the traditions of their culture it shows alot of similarities in how the Romans, Greeks and Persians depicted scenes and imagery in their own works of art and building projects.

As far as the Legs of iron being whatever, I think the angel is pretty clear what they represent, well have to agree to disagree and wait and see. Weve had a pretty lively debate on the topic and seem to allways be coming back around in the same circle. I think there are way to many speculations and assumptions being made, taught, taken for granted and not enough letting scripture do the talking personally. So much so that these conversations have lead me to believe were not really taking eachothers points into considerations but trying to sway eachother to include presuppositions into our way of thinking

I dont think Solana while obviously being an incredibly skillfull diplomat and ambitious individual lines up with the personality or characteristics of "antichrist" as defined in scripture. While I would agree that many things do currently have the appearance of being fullfillments of prophecy as many of the teachers would portray it I see a few things I think are being stretched to fit that reasoning.

I dont distrust or doubt the word of God, Ive truely found it to be of great comfort and guidance but I do doubt mans ability to interpret it correctly without trying to twist it and repackage it in ways that make sense to the world around him as he perceives it.

Well just have to wait and see.
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:44 am

Hi bchandler,

With regard to your scriptural arguments... My perception is that you seem to be working very hard to make scripture fit your view... while ignoring the conflicts it creates...


This can be settled quite easily. Show the scriptures that show the events in Eze 38-39 occuring prior to the end of the last 7 years. I have taken the time to provide at least one other verse in each point of Eze 38-39 in many cases several verses that support what I claim. It isn't hard if your view fits Eze 38-39 then you should be able to produce scripture that relates directly to what is said. I issued the challenge and just as I expected not one single verse has been offered in direct comparision to the scripture in Eze 38-39. This happens constantly with Doug. I just want to see all his scriptures that say this event happens before the 70th week is over. Not that difficult of a task if ones view fits the scripture they are referring. I suspect he can't find more than maybe one verse that might correspond directly to Eze 38-39. Are you guys afraid to compare your proof to what Eze 38-39 says? I am certain his list will fall way short when directly compared to Eze 38-39. We can settle this today if Doug will provide comparable scripture. But no I am not backing down until I see this comparision I ask for. After we compare each others scripture we will see who has the most valid points related to Eze 38-39.

Peace,
Seeker
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So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:39 am

Seeker wrote:Hi bchandler,

With regard to your scriptural arguments... My perception is that you seem to be working very hard to make scripture fit your view... while ignoring the conflicts it creates...


This can be settled quite easily. Show the scriptures that show the events in Eze 38-39 occuring prior to the end of the last 7 years.


Brother Seeker, I have done that a multitude of times. Israel burns the remains of Gog's army for 7 years for fuel, Ezekiel 39:9-10. Every instance of 7 years, described in either unity or two halfs, dealing with the end times has to do with the last week of Daniel.

Israel is at peace when Gog/Magog attacks - which is not possible when the AOD is set up to be worshipped - as the Antichrist is in power for the last 42 months. I have provided links at this site of Israel being in a paradoxial state of peace right now. Christian tour groups go there full time, they have shopping malls, kids going to schools, etc. etc. Do you see any of those things happening, evidence of being at peace, once the Antichrist is revealed as the man of sin, and satan and the Antichrist being worshipped by the world, Revelation 13:4, for those 42 months? That eliminates your theory regarding Gog/Magog occuring at the end of the 7 years, right there... with those passages.... does it not?

Gog/Magog is mentioned in Revelation but at the end of the millenium period, which is followed by the Great White Throne judgment, new heaven and new earth and new Jerusalem - so Gog/Magog of Ezek 38-39 is not that particular battle. However, if you were right, then there should also be some mention in Revelation of Gog/Magog regarding Armageddon or Jesus's return - but there is not.

If Gog/Magog occures pretrib - that eliminates your theory about Turkey, the Muslims, Erdogan, and the Antichrist being a Muslim.... which is also based upon the fourth empire not being the Roman Empire.... yet, you have not made any attempt to prove that the Greek Empire, nor any of the four breakup empires has extended from their time to present. In other words, the very critism that you claim against the Roman Empire, the ones who drove the spikes in Jesus's hands, destroyed the temple, and the city..... you don't have any explanation for the Greek Empire, the thrid empire, still being in place.... awaiting your fourth empire, that of the Antichrist, which in your view has no tie to the Roman Empire... :faint:....:mrgreen:......


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:10 am

Seeker,

In addition to Doug's reply above, i have a couple of comments.

Regarding the extensive scripture you list and relist:

1. I think you are applying your assumptions to the interpretation.

2. You are clearly ignoring the differences between the descriptions of these two battles, while promoting the similarities.

3. You refuse to acknowledge that there are any areas that challenge your interpretation.

Doug has provided scripture... which you ignore, and then ask the same questions again.

I have provided some comparative analysis of scriptures you referenced, which you have ignored.

Frankly Seeker, I don't know who is right in this argument... and I am not standing for one side or the other of the debate... I am just looking at what you are saying, and I immediately see issues with interpreting things the way you do. You could be right for all I know... but the way you are going about things isn't helping your argument... it's hurting it.

So... lets list these differences again:

    1. The gog/magog battle takes place on the mountains of Israel. The battle of armageddon takes place in the valley of meggido.

    2. Obviously not ALL mountains world wide are thrown down in Ezekiel, because shortly after this description we see God calling out a sword after gog/magog on all his holy mountains(in Israel). Where as in revelation the earthquake is apparently world wide and so powerful that it causes mountains to "not be found." This at least looks like it could possibly describe a worldwide flattening of mountains.. but it again is not explicitly declared.

    3. One of these battles describes a large hail of fire and brimstone, the other battle does not... it describes a hail whose only apparent unique quality is it's extraodinary size.


Seeker, you have ignored all 3 of these discrepancies and unless you can rectify them with a rational explanation I don't see how these could possibly be the same battle.

I think Doug has a valid point also. Gog does come in at a time of relative peace. And Israel had a relative peace until the start of the latest intifada movement.

I am looking for a kissinger, to arise who will settle this current conflict, and bring in a period of relative calm.... Then... watch out! Some kind of discovery or ecconomic pressure will draw gog/magog out.

If your view can stand Seeker, you must address that issue of scripture as well... because I don't see how Gog/magog can be at meggido due to the description of relative peace prior to the battle.

At meggido anti-christ is occupying jerusalem and has been persecuting the body of Christ (Jew and grafted Gentile alike) for 3.5 years... so there has been no peace prior to armageddon.

Seeker... reems of scripture do not an argument make... Doug and I have asked valid questions with a very few scriptures to point up our questions (not arguments... questions). If you can answer them effectively, logically, rationally that would be awesome. But please be direct and judicious in your use of scripture, so your point doesn't get drowned in volume.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:46 am

As to the ENP being THE confirmation of THE covenant... well.. IF the legs of iron were rome.... then I would say it's a pretty fair bet.

If the legs of iron were not rome... then i'd say the answer is automatically NO!

I found it also interesting the use of words in Daniel.

Dan 9:26 And after sixty two weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of a coming ruler shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, and war shall be until the end.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

Note that it is not the prince who destroys the city and the sanctuary... it is the PEOPLE of the ruler yet to come. In other words a future ruler's people will do these things.

It is quite possible that these things have already been done..... because what follows is a flood, ruins and deslolations, and war until the end.

then in verse 27 we see HE (the future rule) confirms a covenant.


Who destroyed the city? I think it was rome wasn't it?

Who caused the flood? I think it was rome via the aqueduct wasn't it?

Who made ruins and desolation? I think it was rome wasn't it?

Who confirmed (the ENP) a covenant(the Barcelona Process) with many for seven years (the period of the ENP)? It appears to be a political ruler of a revived empire that did all the other things... it appears to be rome... doesn't it?

So really, all we are waiting for is:

1. Javier Solana, or a person who will receive his seats of power, to rise to power given to him by his emergency powers, and once acheived to not be relinquished.

2. In the middle of the week for some form of offering or daily sacrifice to be taken away.

Note there is not any mention of a temple... only an altar... the temple is not required for the resumption of sacrifice... it could be resumed in a tabernacle while waiting for a temple to be rebuilt.. the scripture really doesn't say there is another temple... as far as i know... just that an abomination of desolation will occur and the desolator will have what has been decreed poured out on him.

In the translations where the word temple is used when we look at the original we see only a reference to the wing/overspreading of abominations... where some translations say on a wing of the temple which I can't seem to find a way to agree with such wording as it ISN'T THERE.

So... it seems that we are just waiting... for the coming prince and the covenant. IF in fact the EU is that last end-time kingdom, and IF the seat of Javier Solana's power are the points of power from which the beast shall arise.
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Postby Mr Dan on Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:49 am

Douggg wrote:Brother Seeker, the arguments for the Roman Empire being the fourth empire are incredilbly sound.

But since you say the Roman Empire is not the fourth empire.... then rationally the Greek Empire must have continued from Antiochus IV Epiphanes time through Jesus's time right up to the present....

You have yet to provide any rationale to support that notion regarding the Greek Empire continuing from Alexander to present. please.... :answerthequestion:



Peace,

Doug L.

The shores of Greece's Aegean Sea saw the emergence of the first advanced civilizations in Europe whose impact is inseparable from today's western institutions and western cultural and political development. Home first to the Minoan and Mycenean worlds and above all the Classical civilization and its Hellenistic inheritor, Greece was then subject to Roman governance and in the process transformed Rome itself. Although the establishment of Roman rule did not break the continuity of Hellenistic society and culture, which remained essentially unchanged until the advent of Christianity, it did mark the end of Greek political independence. The Greek peninsula became a province of Rome, while Greek culture continued to dominate the eastern Mediterranean.
When the Roman Empire finally split in two, the Eastern Roman Empire, known as the Byzantine Empire and centered around Constantinople (known in ancient times as Byzantium), remained Greek in nature, encompassing Greece itself. During the Byzantine imperial period Greece experienced fluctuating fortunes, but succeeded in Hellenizing and institutionalizing most of its new invaders, and by the late 8th century Greeks from Sicily and Asia Minor were brought in as settlers. The 11th and 12th centuries are said to have been the Golden Age of Byzantine art in Greece, while the crusading epochs between 1204 and 1458 saw Greece hit by a series of non-Orthodox armies in the name of religion. The Byzantine era persisted, nevertheless, until the Fall of Constantinople on May 29, 1453, to the Ottoman Empire.
While the Ottomans were completing the main conquest of Greek Mainland Ottoman Greece, two Greek migrations occurred. The first saw the Greek intelligentsia migrate to Western Europe — especially to Italy — and was a significant factor in the advent of the Western European Renaissance. The second migration of Greeks left the plains of the Greek peninsula and resettled in the mountains, the islands and other Greek regions where the Ottomans were unable to create a permanent military and administrative presence. As a result some Greek mountain clans across the peninsula, as well as some islands, were able to maintain a status of independence. The millet system contributed to the ethnic cohesion of Orthodox Greeks by segregating the various peoples within the Ottoman Empire based on religion. Eventually, religion played an integral part in the formation of the Modern Greek and other post-Ottoman national identities. The Ottomans ruled Greece until the early 19th century. On March 25, 1821 the Greeks rebelled thus declaring their strong will for independence (Greek War of Independence). Their struggle ended in 1829, when the newly formed Greek state was finally created and recognized (History of modern Greece). In 1830, the Russian ex-minister of foreign affairs, Ioannis Kapodistrias, a noble Greek from the Ionian Islands, was chosen as the President of the new Republic. However, the Great Powers soon dissolved that republic and installed a monarchy. The first king, Otto, was of the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach. The War of Independence also set in motion the establishment of major new cities and centres of trade such as Hermoupolis, Athens and Pireaus. In 1843, King Otto was forced, as a result of an uprising, to grant his subjects a constitution and representative assembly. He was deposed in 1863, to be replaced by a Danish Prince who took the name George I of Greece and brought the Ionian Islands as a coronation gift from Britain.

Greece was growing economically, whilst becoming politically more liberal. In 1877, Prime Minister Charilaos Trikoupis curbed the power of the monarchy to interfere in the Assembly.
This period was punctuated by the undertaking of one of the largest construction initiatives in Europe: the creation of the Corinth Canal (1881 - 1893), and in 1896 the Olympic Games were revived in Athens, judged a success. As a result of the Balkan Wars of 1912-13, Crete, Chios, Samos, most of Epirus and southern Macedonia, including Thessaloniki, were incorporated into Greece. King George was assassinated in Thessaloniki in 1913 and succeeded by his Germanophile son, King Constantine I, whose struggle with Prime Minister Eleftherios Venizelos resulted in Greece's joining of the Entente against Germany and Austria, and the abdication of King Constantine in favour of his son, Alexander. A small part of Asia Minor, which was centred around the city of Smyrna (known today as İzmir) and still retained a majority Greek population, was awarded to Greece by the Great Powers for having sided with the entente powers in World War I against the Ottoman Empire. Very soon, 3 years later, Turkish nationalists, led by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, denounced the Sultan's government in Istanbul and formed a new one in Ankara, eventually defeating the Greeks, (Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)) when the Great Powers stopped supplying the Greek armies
Following the withdrawal of Greek forces and the destruction of Smyrna, a new government was established. Soon afterwards, the Treaty of Lausanne was signed, fixing the borders to this date. A population exchange was included in the agreement and immediately afterward, around five hundred thousand Muslims then living in mainland Greek territory left for Turkey in exchange for more than 1.22 million Greek residents of Asia Minor (excluding Constantinople, Imvros and Tenedos).
In 1936, General Ioannis Metaxas established an authoritarian conservative dictatorship in Greece, known as the 4th of August Regime, and shortly before the outbreak of World War II a disputed referendum was held, resulting in a 'yes' to restore the monarchy under King George II.

On October 28, 1940, the Italian dictator Mussolini demanded that Greece allow Axis troops to enter the country and to surrender its arms; the Greek government gave what became known as the simple negative response of “No” (see Okhi Day) — thereby immediately siding with the Allies (see Military history of Greece during World War II). Italian troops poured over from Albania but were foiled by the Greeks at the Albanian front, giving the Allies their first victory against fascism (see Greco-Italian War). Since Hitler and his generals needed to secure their strategic southern flank, German forces, whose ranks included troops from Bulgaria and Italy, successfully invaded, and the occupation of Greece by Nazi Germany began in April–May, 1941 (see Battle of Greece). Greek partisan resistance to the occupation was fierce, often with bitter retaliation from the occupiers. Greek Resistance however, such as that waged in Crete, is believed to have forced a delay in German plans to initiate invasion against the Soviet Union, thereby extending the campaign into the punishing Russian winter, while the extremely heavy losses of German paratroop forces foiled a planned German campaign in the Middle East against British-held Iraq and its oil fields. Germany retained its grip on the country until 1944 when German troops withdrew. The Jewish community of Thessaloniki suffered the heaviest toll by far and the Greek economy languished.
fter liberation from Nazi Germany, Greece experienced an equally bitter civil war between the Greek Democratic Army and Hellenic Army lasting until 1949 when left-wing forces were defeated in the battle of Grammos-Vitsi. During the 1950s and 1960s, Greece experienced a gradual and consistent economic growth, aided by significant grants and loans by the United States through the Marshall Plan. However, starting in 1965, a period of turbulence and the subsequent political uncertainty led to a coup d’etat against the elected government and King Constantine II that took place in the dawn of April 21, 1967, and the establishment of a US-supported military junta (Regime of the Colonels). In the ensuing years, a number of sympathisers of the left, as well as a number of politicians and communists, were arrested and brutally tortured by the regime. Many politicians evaded capture and found political refuge in other European countries such as France and Sweden, but the then-head of state, King Constantine, officially acknowledged the new regime, which was also then duly recognized by the international community, and diplomatic relations continued; he attempted a counter coup in December, 1967 which was to fail, and he went to Rome in exile. The regime collapsed in July 1974.
Ex Premier Constantine Karamanlis was invited back on July 23, 1974 from Paris, where he resided since 1963. Marking the beginning of the Metapolitefsi era of Greek history, the plane carrying Constantine Karamanlis landed in Athens amidst massive celebrations and enormous crowds in Syntagma Square; Karamanlis was immediately appointed interim prime minister under President Gizikis, and founded the conservative New Democracy party, going on to win the ensuing elections by a large margin. Democracy was finally restored and a democratic republican constitution came into force in 1975. The monarchy was abolished by a referendum held that same year, denying King Constantine II and his family any access to the country until 2004. Meanwhile, another prominent figure of the past, politician Andreas Papandreou, had also returned from the United States, and founded the Panhellenic Socialist Party, or PASOK.
Karamanlis won the 1977 parliamentary elections, but resigned in 1980 giving way to George Rallis; Papandreou, however, won the elections held on October 18, 1981 by a landslide and formed the first socialist government in Greece's history. Papandreou dominated the Greek political stage for almost 15 years until his death in June 23, 1996, by which time Kostas Simitis, another prominent political figure of PASOK, had already succeeded him as Prime Minister. Simitis remained in office until March 7, 2004, when Kostas Karamanlis of the conservative New Democracy party won elections.

Greece became the tenth member of the European Union on January 1, 1981 and ever since the nation has experienced remarkable and sustained economic growth. Widespread investments in industrial enterprises and heavy infrastructure, as well as funds from the European Union and growing revenues from tourism, shipping and a fast growing service sector have raised the country's standard of living to unprecedented levels. The country adopted the Euro in 2001 and successfully organised the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens.


There you go Doug, Interestingly as well the City of Contantinople and capital of the eastern Roman empire was founded by Byzantium greeks around 663 bc, was home to Alexander for a brief period in which he is said to have built the caspian gates and was the seat of power for the Ottoman islamic Caliphate from the 15-20 centuries With the end of the caliphate in 1924. One of the goals of Islam today interestingly enough is to re establish this caliphate

Now its your turn ,Im interested to see how your going to support the Roman empire existing up until the present, and what was the official language of the Byzantine era and why were the Byzantine Romans called the empire of greece? :oops:
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Postby prophecyrocks on Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:50 pm

If God executes His judgement on all nations in Gog/Magog War, then what nations will be left for God to execute his judgement on in Armaggedon ?

Ezekiel 39:21 =>>> And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed...on them.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:55 pm

That's just it... gog/magog is not all nations... it is a specific set of nations.

this is yet another distinction between gog/magog and armageddon.

the battle at meggido involves all nations who oppose Christ. Thanks for pointing this up.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:57 pm

bchandler wrote:Regarding the extensive scripture you list and relist:

1. I think you are applying your assumptions to the interpretation.


Likewise ?

2. You are clearly ignoring the differences between the descriptions of these two battles, while promoting the similarities.


And you are clearly ignoring the similarities between the descriptions of those 2 battles, while promoting the differences.

3. You refuse to acknowledge that there are any areas that challenge your interpretation.


Likewise ?

Doug has provided scripture... which you ignore, and then ask the same questions again.


Likewise ?

The gog/magog battle takes place on the mountains of Israel. The battle of armageddon takes place in the valley of meggido.


Read Zachariah again. Enemies are falling all over the place in and around Jerusalem as well as in the valley of meggido.

Obviously not ALL mountains world wide are thrown down in Ezekiel, because shortly after this description we see God calling out a sword after gog/magog on all his holy mountains(in Israel). Where as in revelation the earthquake is apparently world wide and so powerful that it causes mountains to "not be found." This at least looks like it could possibly describe a worldwide flattening of mountains.. but it again is not explicitly declared.


Where is this huge earthquake is centered ? Ezekiel 38:19...there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. If any mountains are thrown down...boy it's going to be in Israel. Yes, God calls a sword on the mountains...that's why how the people die...when the moutains they are ON falls down and they die there.

One of these battles describes a large hail of fire and brimstone, the other battle does not... it describes a hail whose only apparent unique quality is it's extraodinary size.[/list]


Extraordinary size = large hail of fire.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:58 pm

bchandler wrote:That's just it... gog/magog is not all nations... it is a specific set of nations.

this is yet another distinction between gog/magog and armageddon.

the battle at meggido involves all nations who oppose Christ. Thanks for pointing this up.


What does the verse say. Does it not have the word "ALL" ?
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Postby prophecyrocks on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:02 pm

prophecyrocks wrote:
bchandler wrote:That's just it... gog/magog is not all nations... it is a specific set of nations.

this is yet another distinction between gog/magog and armageddon.

the battle at meggido involves all nations who oppose Christ. Thanks for pointing this up.


What does the verse say. Does it not have the word "ALL" ?


This verse is not referring back to the listed countries...now God's saying ALL nations. And what happens after ? Ezk 39:23 "...and the nations will know..."

If the nations know God...why would they attack Israel again (if Gog/Magog is pre-70th week) ?
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Postby prophecyrocks on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:05 pm

Douggg wrote:Israel is at peace when Gog/Magog attacks - which is not possible when the AOD is set up to be worshipped - as the Antichrist is in power for the last 42 months.


Ezekiel's Gog/Magog describes the the last 42 months which culminates in the battle of Armgdn. Israel is at peace prior to the AOD.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:06 pm

bchandler wrote:Thanks for pointing this up.


You're very welcome.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm

Prophecy rocks,

I have not ignored the similarities... I have acknowledged them... but... there are distinct differences... and to assume as you have that gog/magog is the whole earth is incorrect, and to assume that large size includes fire and brimstone when it is NOT STATED is inappropriate.

If there were only similarities we would have no point of contention... the problem here is that there are differences and they must be resolved empirically, not by unfounded assumptions.

If they can not be empirically solved then we can not reasonably assume that these 2 battles are one and the same.

So... for me to point up the differences and you to accuse me of ignoring the similarities is a false statement.

I find the discussion interesting, and if the 2 are reconcilable i would like to see it.... but you can't just wave a wand and make it go away.

here is who comes down to the gog/magog battle.

Eze 38:2 Son of man, set your face against Gog, the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him.


Here is who comes down to armageddon

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his bowl onto the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the earth, even of the whole habitable world to assemble them to the war of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, that he does not walk naked, and they may see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And He assembled them in the place having been called in Hebrew, Armageddon.


Big difference... you cant just ignore it...
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:15 pm

In addition to the previous difference... you also have to note the difference in the location of the battles...

One is in northern Israel on the Golan Heights... and the other is in the Valley of Meggido, further south and west of the description given for the gog/magog war.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:20 pm

Just because the nations will know that God did this thing in Israel doesn't mean they won't continue to rebel... no where in there does it say they will turn from their sin and worship God does it? Just that they will know and fear and tremble.
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Postby what happened? on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:21 pm

bchandler wrote:
Big difference... you cant just ignore it...


I didn't.

Ezekiel 39:21 =>>> And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed...on them.

This verse is not referring back to the listed countries...now God's saying ALL nations. And what happens after ? Ezk 39:23 "...and the nations will know..."

If ALL the nations know God...why would they attack Israel again (if Gog/Magog is pre-70th week) ?


(oh btw, I am "prophecyrocks," my account just got inactivated after changing my email in the profiles page...so using this SN for now until that gets fixed)
Last edited by what happened? on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby what happened? on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:23 pm

bchandler wrote:In addition to the previous difference... you also have to note the difference in the location of the battles...

One is in northern Israel on the Golan Heights... and the other is in the Valley of Meggido, further south and west of the description given for the gog/magog war.


Plese read Zachariah again. Enemies are falling all over the place in and around Jerusalem right before Christ steps foot on earth. Unless Zach isn't speaking about the end of the 70th week ?
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Postby what happened? on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:28 pm

Ezekiel's Gog/Magog describes the the last 42 months which culminates in the battle of Armgdn. Israel is at peace prior to the AOD.

I believe Gog/Magog starts out as the "listed" countries but all nations are eventually pulled in together to fight against the LAMB.

Ezekiel 39:21 =>>> And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed...on them.

All nations are "ALL." No slick interpretations needed here.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:34 pm

whathappened:

It's better not to have 2 accounts. Please wait until I figure out what happened to your other one.

Thanks!
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Postby what happened? on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:38 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:whathappened:

It's better not to have 2 accounts. Please wait until I figure out what happened to your other one.

Thanks!


Oh, sorry. :mrgreen:
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Postby what happened? on Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:50 pm

bchandler wrote:Just because the nations will know that God did this thing in Israel doesn't mean they won't continue to rebel...


My point is: How can they continue to rebel again when God had already administered His judgements on them. It's over already. The grand finale. Let the Mill begin !!
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Postby prophecyrocks on Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:04 pm

Thanks "Abiding In His Word."

Seeker, great post at "Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:20 pm."
I wonder if anyone even read it. I'm keeping that for future
reference. Thanks.
:onlyjesus:
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