Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:38 pm

Thanks prophecyrocks,

Hey better yet add to it there are many more that can be included. Read the chapters around the verses I show that is really interesting. After reading several of them the story becomes clear. It is all the same battle spoken of from the earliest prophets up to John describing Armageddon. There is one part in Ezekiel that I can't see how anyone could argue with but they do.

.....and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence.....

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby bchandler on Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:53 pm

You are asuming that these are the same battle.

You are assuming that all the nations who see this judgement repent and come to God.

You are assuming the rebelion ends at gog/magog.

you are assuming that people are dying all over israel.

you are assuming that fire and brimstone are present in one judgement when it is never mentioned.

You are assuming that all opposition to God will cease upon this demonstration of his power.

You assume a great many things not in evidence in the scripture.

when you strip away the assumptions... and look only at what the scriptures tell us... it is difficult to come to the conclusion that these are the same battle.

I thank you for the discussion... you have done a good job of bringing enough light and scripture to my own study for me to come to a personal decision.

I can't in good conscience agree with the assertion that these 2 battles are the same. straight forward interpretation of the scripture doesn't allow it.

Your attempt to reconcile these battles into a single fight requires too many unfounded assumptions and twisting of scripture...

As I said earlier when conducted in an edifying manner... I always get something out of these kinds of debates... even when we disagree... and in that I thank you. If anything you helped to crystalize my opinion and showed me enough scriptural evidence for me to be sure of where I personally have decided to stand on this issue.

IMO, your assertions regarding gog/magog being armageddon are dead wrong. I'm not sure how far apart these battles are... but there are simply to many distinctions for them to be the same war in my opinion.

In fact I am beginning to become of the opinion that one of these battles starts the 70th week and the other closes it... but I will need further study before i solidify such a supposition in to a tenable position.

If anytihng seeker... your approach and debate style put me off your position... not that I would let that alone sway me... But in looking at the repeatedly unwarranted assumptions you must employ to come to your conclusion did a great deal to solidify my thinking against it.
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:16 am

what happened? wrote:Ezekiel's Gog/Magog describes the the last 42 months which culminates in the battle of Armgdn. Israel is at peace prior to the AOD.

I believe Gog/Magog starts out as the "listed" countries but all nations are eventually pulled in together to fight against the LAMB.

Ezekiel 39:21 =>>> And I will set My glory among the nations; and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed...on them.

All nations are "ALL." No slick interpretations needed here.


Oh jeepers, what happened? :mrgreen:

The group of nations listed in Ezekiel 38 just happened to be Muslim, with the exception of Russia, who is in league with the arab countries and Iran. The countries are south, north, west, and east of Israel. Just looking at the verses I can't find any indication that other countries are involved....

It seems to me that at the end of Gog/Magog the other nations are in awe of the destruction, and that God is defending Israel.... and are not participants themselfs...

39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:46 am

Hi bchandler,

You are asuming that these are the same battle.


No I am not here it says it right here.

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

You are assuming that all the nations who see this judgement repent and come to God.


Nope says it here.

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


You are assuming the rebelion ends at gog/magog.


It does Israel returns to God and know that the Lord is their God from that day forward. Show me where Israel knows the Lord is their God from that day forward in scripture. Simple enough to find. Israel does not return to God until after they accept Jesus. No man can come to the Father but through the Son. Jesus is the only way to God and Israel returns to God they have to have accepted Jesus at this point. Show me your scripture placing this event at any other time as I keep asking. You can’t because Israel doesn’t accept Jesus until they see the one they had pierced.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:08 am

Seeker wrote:Hi bchandler,

You are asuming that these are the same battle.


No I am not here it says it right here.

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

You are assuming that all the nations who see this judgement repent and come to God.


Nope says it here.

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


You are assuming the rebelion ends at gog/magog.


It does Israel returns to God and know that the Lord is their God from that day forward. Show me where Israel knows the Lord is their God from that day forward in scripture. Simple enough to find. Israel does not return to God until after they accept Jesus. No man can come to the Father but through the Son. Jesus is the only way to God and Israel returns to God they have to have accepted Jesus at this point. Show me your scripture placing this event at any other time as I keep asking. You can’t because Israel doesn’t accept Jesus until they see the one they had pierced.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


Peace,
Seeker


Seeker, Zechariah 12:10 covers the last 7 years. God pours our his spirit upon all flesh during that time - the spirit of grace and supplications. At the end of the seven years, they will mourn because it will be an outpouring of emotions for everything they have been through... and the one whom they have come to believe in, but have totally slammed for the last 2000 years, will appear. Mourninng when they see Jesus doesn't mean that they have not accepted him as Saviour by that time - they have. For the time, times, and a half times - the second half of the 7 years, they are Christians - they have the testimony of Jesus - because God had poured out his spirit upon them.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


They are Christians because John's brethern...in Revelation 19:10... are described as having the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Okay, the Jews during the second half of the 7 years, will have the testimony of Jesus, meaning that they are our Christian brethen at that time, also Rev 19:10 says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And both Joel and Acts says God will pour out his Spirit on all flesh - and they shall prophesy....

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2:18 And * on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
......for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy Rev 19:10....the Jews have the testimony of Jesus Rev 12:17.....thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus Rev 19:10

.... Seeker, without question, the Jews will be Chrstians for that second half of the seven years. They already know Jesus long before the end of the seven years..... they don't have to wait for a Armageddon timed Gog/Magog event to know the Lord their God that you are timing to occure three and half years after they have been Christians for all that time to know Him. Which by the way, brother Seeker, ends the argument for Gog/Magog being part of the Revelation 19:19 armies of the world.... Turkey, Erdogan, the Muslims, and that particular entire theory ...by using scripture of course :mrgreen:

What you are not getting is that there are so many Jews in Israel and around the world.... who are not religious at all right now. God first has to bring them to recognize Him.... then as the two witnesses testify during that first half of the seven years.... they are fed the Word of God about Jesus.... although they are in a Spiritual Wilderness at that time for that 1260 days, Revelation 12:6, because they will have bought into the idea that the Antichrist is their messiah... the covenant with death and hell.... that God will not let stand.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:02 am

Douggg wrote:Zechariah 12:10 covers the last 7 years. God pours our his spirit upon all flesh during that time...


I'm sorry, but that's just wrong !!

Zechariah 12:10 does not cover the last 7 year. It covers the time when God supernaturally comes to Israel's rescue...which is during the very end of the 70th Week, or at the very end of the 7 years.

Zech 12:3 "...on that day, when all nations...."
Zech 12:4 "...On that day, I will strike all..."

...then...

Zech 12:10 "I will pour out..."

God pours out His spirit after He recues His people and this occurs during the end of the 70th week !!

You cannot argue that Zechariah 12-14 is not about the end of the 70th week. Even your friend (:mrgreen:) Hal Lindsay will agree with this.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:17 am

Douggg wrote:Seeker, Zechariah 12:10 covers the last 7 years. God pours our his spirit upon all flesh during that time - the spirit of grace and supplications.


Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the HOUSE OF DAVID AND THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM a spirit of grace and supplication."

Sorry...it's only for the Israelites...not all flesh.

With all due respect, do you even read the verses you post ?
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:20 am

prophecyrocks wrote:
Douggg wrote:Zechariah 12:10 covers the last 7 years. God pours our his spirit upon all flesh during that time...


I'm sorry, but that's just wrong !!

Zechariah 12:10 does not cover the last 7 year. It covers the time when God supernaturally comes to Israel's rescue...which is during the very end of the 70th Week, or at the very end of the 7 years.

Zech 12:3 "...on that day, when all nations...."
Zech 12:4 "...On that day, I will strike all..."

...then...

Zech 12:10 "I will pour out..."

God pours out His spirit after He recues His people and this occurs during the end of the 70th week !!

You cannot argue that Zechariah 12-14 is not about the end of the 70th week. Even your friend (:mrgreen:) Hal Lindsay will agree with this.


Hey brother prophecyrocks, :mrgreen: "in that day", which heads up many of the verses throughout Zechariah 12 referes to the last days...., when all of the prophecies regarding the end times will be fulfilled. It is not the specific 24 hour period that you are contemplating.

Jesus does return at the end of the 70th week to save the Jews, we agree there. But it will be from physical destruction. As I have shown in my previous post, Revelation 12:17 says that the Jews are believers in Jesus for that second half of the 70th week. No one becomes a Christian apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:27 am

prophecyrocks wrote:
Douggg wrote:Seeker, Zechariah 12:10 covers the last 7 years. God pours our his spirit upon all flesh during that time - the spirit of grace and supplications.


Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the HOUSE OF DAVID AND THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM[b] a spirit of grace and supplication."

Sorry...it's only for the Israelites...not all flesh.

With all due respect, do you even read the verses you post
?


:a2: uh..... I just wish you would read the verses I post. Here it is again...
but bigger just for you....

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:55 am

Doug, may I ask you a few simple question ?

1.) What is going on in Zechariah 12:4-9 and Zech 14:3-4 (vs 4...On that day, His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives...) ?

2.) And where do you put this time frame of God's rescue within the 7 years ? The beginning, the middle, or the end ?

3.) According to Zechariah, does the pouring of God's spirit occur before or after the Lord goes out and "fight against those nations ?"

Revelation 12:17 says that the Jews are believers in Jesus for that second half of the 70th week.


This verse is up for debate. The woman perhaps is Israel or the Messianic Jews. But her offspring "those of obey God's commandments..." could be those who come to believe after the fact, I'm not sure anyone can say for sure. It's not clear if it's really saying Jews are believers in Jesus though.

But what's clear is that Zechariah 12:10 says..."and they will look on me, the one they have pierced..." and this occurs AFTER God miraculously delivers His people. Sorry, no debate here with Zech 12:10.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:00 pm

Douggg wrote:
prophecyrocks wrote:
Douggg wrote:Seeker, Zechariah 12:10 covers the last 7 years. God pours our his spirit upon all flesh during that time - the spirit of grace and supplications.


Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour out on the HOUSE OF DAVID AND THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM[b] a spirit of grace and supplication."

Sorry...it's only for the Israelites...not all flesh.

With all due respect, do you even read the verses you post
?


:a2: uh..... I just wish you would read the verses I post. Here it is again...
but bigger just for you....

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Peace,

Doug L.


What does Acts have to do with this ?

You said God pours out his spirit on ALL flesh in Zech 12:10. But Zech 12:10 CLEARLY says God only pours it out on Israel.

I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about Zech 12:10. So what do you have to say about Zech 12:10 ? It's only for Israel...NOT ON ALL FLESH !!!!!!!
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:09 pm

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts = spirit of prophecy

Zechariah 12:10 "...Spirit of grace and supplication"

Zech 13:4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision."

Is the spirit mentioned in Acts the same as the spirit mentioned in Zechariah ?
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Postby bchandler on Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:54 pm

Seeker, why should I post the scripture when you do it for me...lol

The scripture you posted shows that Israel returns to God... not the whole world...

Who do we have wittnessing to the Jews and to the whole world for 42 months during the trib? The two witnesses. You think their testimoney combined with the events of Gog/Magog might have something to do with Israel turning to Jesus? It's speculation... but at least we can make it based on logic and reason and scripture.

Yes, Israel will mourn when they look on him whom they peirced. But then even if they were already Christians... wouldn't you expect them to grieve over their national sins and hardness of heart that separated them from God for so long?

I suspect that the first time we see him, and the wounds he carries because of our own personal sin, we might all well grieve for the suffering we personally caused him.

I know there are times during my own prayer and worship that I mourn for what I caused him to suffer. Because it was I who weilded the scourge, and I who struck him, and I who spat on him, and I who put those thorns on his head, and I who mocked him, and I who nailed him to that tree. It was my personal sin that caused all of those things... so I am just as guilty as if I had done those things to him personaly.

When I think on these things I mourn, and grieve, and repent. How much more will Israel grieve the first time they see him, for both their personal sins and their national sins. Just because they mourn... I am not certain that this is where they are saved... In fact I always thought it was kinda too late to get saved when we see him coming as the conquering king.

In looking at Zechariah as you suggested, I am struck by a few things to note:
    Zec 12:1 The burden of the Word of Jehovah for Israel, says Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man in his midst.
    Zec 12:2 Behold! I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the peoples all around, and it shall also be against Judah in the siege against Jerusalem.
    Zec 12:3 And in that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it shall be slashed. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.
    Zec 12:4 In that day I will strike every horse with panic and his rider with madness, says Jehovah. And I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and I will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness.
    Zec 12:5 And the leaders of Judah shall say in their heart, Those living in Jerusalem shall be my strength in Jehovah of Hosts, their God.
    Zec 12:6 In that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire among cut grain. And they shall devour all the peoples all around, on the right hand and on the left hand. And Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her place, in Jerusalem.
    Zec 12:7 Jehovah also shall save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of those living in Jerusalem may not be magnified above Judah.
    Zec 12:8 In that day Jehovah shall protect around those living in Jerusalem. And it will be, he who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of Jehovah before them.
    Zec 12:9 And it shall be in that day, I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    Zec 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on those living in Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they shall be bitter over Him, like the bitterness over the first-born.
    Zec 12:11 In that day the mourning in Jerusalem shall be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo.
    Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, each family apart: the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    Zec 12:13 the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    Zec 12:14 all the families who remain, each family apart, and their wives apart.


First I think it is important to note that this chapter is not speaking of a single battle... but is more a summary of conditions and occurences during the end time.

Here we see the Lord telling us that he will essentially confound all the nations who come against Israel... but look... he says that he will first save Judah... Then Jerusalem will be saved.

So the first fight we see is in Judah... and after Judah is delivered, we then see God's deliverance of Jerusalem.

So... I don't think this prophecy references a single point in time... rather it appears to address the entire end time period, and it appears that there are two different conflicts described here.

It is not clear that either of these conflicts are related to Gog/magog... since Judah is in the south I think.. and Gog/Magog occurs in the north.

Again there is no indication of what if any time frame occurs between these two conflicts... but it does seem clear that there are at least two distinct and seperate conflicts shown within this prophecy.

It is possible that this prophecy references the time just before and leading up to armageddon... and describes a series of battles leading up to the final deliverance of Jerusalem at Meggido.... but if this is true... it would seem to have nothing to do with the northern battle of Gog/magog... because the conflicts described here seem to start in the south and move north, where as Gog/magog starts in the north on the Golan Heights and never appears to move south.. it appears they are destroyed before they ever really get to make their move against Israel.

But frankly.. there simply isn't enough information here to do much more than logical speculation and rational assumptions.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:15 pm

bchandler wrote:
It is possible that this prophecy references the time just before and leading up to armageddon... and describes a series of battles leading up to the final deliverance of Jerusalem at Meggido.... but if this is true... it would seem to have nothing to do with the northern battle of Gog/magog... because the conflicts described here seem to start in the south and move north, where as Gog/magog starts in the north on the Golan Heights and never appears to move south..


Eze 39:4 "You will fall on the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you as food to every kind of predatory bird and beast of the field.
Eze 39:5 "You will fall on the open field; for it is I who have spoken," declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:6 "And I will send fire upon Magog and those who inhabit the coastlands in safety; and they will know that I am the LORD.

Apparently...it is all around Jerusalem.

it appears they are destroyed before they ever really get to make their move against Israel.


Nope. They take spoil from Jerusalem. In order to do that, they must enter it.

Ezk 39:10 "...and they (Israel) will plunder those (Gog) who plundered them, declares the Sovereign Lord.

This verse clearly shows that Gog/Magog have plundered and taken spoil from Israel.

Bchandler, no assumptions used. All scripture.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:31 pm

-Ezekiel 39:10 "...and they (Israel) will plunder those (Gog) who plundered them, declares the Sovereign Lord."

-Zechariah 14:2 "...the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city..."


Zechariah 14 here shows the before...and Ezekiel 39:10 shows the after.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:45 pm

Seeker wrote:Show me your scripture placing this event at any other time as I keep asking. You can’t because Israel doesn’t accept Jesus until they see the one they had pierced.


Ditto. I'm waiting for those scriptures as well.
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Postby bchandler on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:10 pm

I am sorry but the use of past tense in that translation is deceptive.. if you look at the original hebrew... it could just as easily be translated:

...spoil that spoiler and rob that robber....

The tensing used here in the hebrew is an untranslated(untranslatable?) direct object particle of speech generally indicating an accusative tense. It is not easily translated into english... hence you have a lot of extra words added here by the translators to try to make this meaning understandable in english.

But just because the person being spoiled is a spoiler and a robber does not indicate they actually took any spoil or robbed anyone... it is perfectly feasible for the spoiler and robber in this case to have been intercepted and spoiled and robbed before they could execute their own evil plans.

Next to the issue of them falling on the plain...

The Golan Heights is a high mountain volcanic ash plain... deposited by a nearby extinct volcano. This plain isn't very good for crops yet... but is good grazing land... so... when we see them fall in the mountains and on the plain... it couls very easily be spoeaking of the mountains and plain of the Golan Heights... combine this with the fact that the prohecy speaks of large amounts of cattle dying at the same time and fire and brimstone... and all the puzzle peices seem to fit rather neatly...

Seems maybe that extinct volcano won't stay so extinct... this also explains how one battle has large hail and fire and brimstone... and the other only has large hail, and no fire and brimstone is mentioned.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:12 pm

Hi prophecyrocks,

Yeah they can't get around these two.

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby bchandler on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:21 pm

Just because all the men shake and fear and tremble doesnt mean they all repent and turn to God...

And God's presence can be felt apart from his person... via the Holy Spirit.

And ok... so Israel will turn to God from that day forward... that doesn't mean it is the last day.. or that Jesus has returned, yet...

If the witnesses are active at this time.. they will be bearing witness to the events about to occur, they will prophecy and they will draw Israel back to God, and to Jesus... IMO.

But I can not say for sure this is so... it is as much speculation as your speculation of the battles being one and the same. I would need a lot more study time.. and frankly it isn't that important and I need to study more edifying things and earn a living.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:24 pm

bchandler wrote:I am sorry but the use of past tense in that translation is deceptive.. if you look at the original hebrew... it could just as easily be translated:

...spoil that spoiler and rob that robber....


You have to admit, this is your assumption. I've read many commentaries of Ezekiel 38/39 from those who differ in views and I've yet to come across this. I'm sorry. I disagree. This is kinda pushing the envelope to support your...assumptions.

Seems maybe that extinct volcano won't stay so extinct... this also explains how one battle has large hail and fire and brimstone... and the other only has large hail, and no fire and brimstone is mentioned.


Zech 14:12...Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Sounds like it's caused by intense heat.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:26 pm

bchandler wrote:But I can not say for sure this is so... it is as much speculation as your speculation of the battles being one and the same. I would need a lot more study time.. and frankly it isn't that important and I need to study more edifying things and earn a living.


Fair enough. If good debate and discussions causes us all to look more intently into scriptures, then everybody wins. :grin:
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Postby Triton57 on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:34 pm

bchandler wrote:That's a good point... in fact I have heard it said that if Israel had turned to Jesus in 70 A.D. Christ's return would have been then... but because they didn't their punishment was multiplied.

I forget the exact figures but there is a place in scripture where it tells them exactly how long their judgement would last of they rejected him... and that period essentially came to an end in 1967 when Israel re-took the temple mount... The Israel sinned in their lack of faith an another 14000 days was added just as in the wilderness... which ended on rosh hoshanna 2005...

interesting... if this is true... then this explains the delay in finishing the 70th week, and all we are waiting for is what...??? to finish out the remainder of the 70th week.

hmmm...

I believe the 70th week may have started on Rosh Hashanah, 2005.

As far as what we're waiting for, I believe we will see either the peace that allows the rebuilding of the temple, or the Gog/Magog invasion next. It's laid out in the coming times. I'm currently leaning toward the Gog/Magog invasion because I believe that will bring Israel back to a desire to worship God again, even if they're clueless as to their Messiah's identity as of yet. God saving them from the Gog/Magog invasion would really bring Israel back to a place where the nation as a whole would move back toward God and desire the re-institution of the daily sacrifice. Currently there are many Jews who desire this, but from what I've read, they're currently the minority and the secular government certainly isn't pushing for control of the Temple Mount. If my understanding is correct, we should see soon enough!
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Postby bchandler on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:36 pm

You have to admit, this is your assumption.


well no... I don't... I just spent a few minutes looking at the original Hebrew words and a BDB dictionary...

When you do you will see a whole lot of additional desrciptive words that probably shouldn't be there. I generally find that keeping it simple and direct is the best approach to these kinds of untranslatable particles and parts of speech that have no english counterparts.

And when you remove all the extraneous words and use a direct accusative stance as is generally indicated by the particle... u get:

... spoil the spoiler, and rob the robber...

or...

...spoil that spoiler, and rob that robber...

I personally chose the word THAT because IMO it is in better keeping with the untranslated direct accusative tensing described in the Hebrew.

Look carefully at the hebrew words used... all the other words shown in the translation just dont exist... the THE and THAT i used above don't exist either... but I have to try to find some word in english to transmit that accusative plural tensing indicated by this particle of speech. In fact it ocurred to me that THAT isn't even the right word.. because the tensing is plural a better word to describe the accusative plural would be THOSE.

But if you want to be really literal the words that are there are:

...spoil(eth) spoil, rob(eth) rob...

the (eth) being that part of speech that is left untranslated here.. but generally is direct object accusative plural.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:47 pm

bchandler wrote:The tensing used here in the hebrew is an untranslated(untranslatable?) direct object particle of speech generally indicating an accusative tense. It is not easily translated into english... hence you have a lot of extra words added here by the translators to try to make this meaning understandable in english.


Ezekiel 39:10 --

NIV = And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign LORD.

NASB = and they will take the spoil of those who despoiled them and seize the (A)plunder of those who plundered them," declares the Lord GOD.

KJV = and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

NKJ = and they will take the spoil of those who despoiled them and seize the (A)plunder of those who plundered them," declares the Lord GOD.

ASV = and they shall plunder those that plundered them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord Jehovah.

New Living Translation = They will plunder those who planned to plunder them, and they will rob those who planned to rob them, says the Sovereign Lord.

Most translations says Israel was plundered. But you have a point.

Nevertheless, within the context of Ezekiel 39:9-10...it seems as the Lord is saying they will be provided for. They will have fuel for 7 years. They will not need to gather woods from the fields. And they will have much because they have plundered those who plundered them.
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Postby Triton57 on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:54 pm

watch2000 wrote:Ezekiel 39:28 cannot take place till the end of trib, because God pours out his spirit on Israel when christ returns, as in zech 12.

Ezekiel 39
Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the house of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."

ZECH 12
10 " I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.y will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

I don't believe Gog/Magog can be when Christ returns in glory because of the following...
    Ezekiel 38:8-12
    After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

    Revelation 12:14
    And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Israel is going to be protected in the wilderness being refined through fire when Christ returns in glory to take the kingdoms. The Gog/Magog invaders are coming upon Jerusalem when they're wiped out in the mountains of Israel. However, if that is right before Christ's return, Israel isn't in Jerusalem because at the abomination of desolation, 2/3 of Israel were killed and the 1/3 remnant were taken to the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. That's where they'll be when Christ returns, not at Jerusalem.

watch2000 wrote:Also notice this parallel in EZEK 39 and REVELATION 19,

ezekiel 39
"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: 'Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. 18 You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth as if they were rams and lambs, goats and bulls—all of them fattened animals from Bashan. 19 At the sacrifice I am preparing for you, you will eat fat till you are glutted and drink blood till you are drunk. 20 At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,' declares the Sovereign LORD.


REV 19

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, "Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great."

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

Notice who the armies gathered to Armageddon are gathered to make war against. It isn't Israel, but the rider on the horse. Ezekiel 38,39 speaks to the attackers coming to take spoil from those gathered of all nations into the mountains of Israel (Jerusalem). At Armageddon, the armies are fighting Christ.

watch2000 wrote:Also,
EZEK 39
7 " 'I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, the nations will know that I the LORDthe Holy One in Israel. t is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign LORD. This is the day I have spoken of.

There is only one DAY spoken of by God and that is The Day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord is 1,000 years. 2 Peter 3:8-10 The destruction of the Gog/Magog armies will probably be in one day.
    Ezekiel 39:1-8
    Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
    Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

    Ezekiel 39:11
    And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

    Ezekiel 39:13
    Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

    Ezekiel 39:22
    So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
I don't think this is the "day of the Lord" because that comes as a sudden destruction on all those dwelling on the whole earth. The Ezekiel 38,39 event is focused on Gog/Magog and the armies that attack Israel while she's living in safety in Jerusalem.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:03 pm

Hi bchandler,

Just because all the men shake and fear and tremble doesnt mean they all repent and turn to God...


I didn’t say they repent and turn to God. It says every single creature on earth will shake at the presence of God. That means somehow every single thing walking the face of the earth will shake at the same time.

And God's presence can be felt apart from his person... via the Holy Spirit.


Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Do fish, fowls, beasts, and creeping things have the Holy Spirit?

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

There is an earthquake so powerful that every living thing on the face of the earth shakes when it happens. There is a definite physical earthquake spoken of here. God adds “at His presence” as well. Where do we see a similar event?

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Isa 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.


Those are scriptures that have the same earthquake Ezekiel is talking about. Notice when they all occur. There is the proof I offer that this event in Eze 38:19-20 occurs near the end of the last 7 years. Refute it will scripture showing otherwise. Show me an earthquake that shakes every creature on earth before the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
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Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:09 pm

Triton57 wrote:However, if that is right before Christ's return, Israel isn't in Jerusalem


Zechariah 5-9:

5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Who are these inhabitants of Jerusalem then ?

Triton57 wrote:Ezekiel 38,39 speaks to the attackers coming to take spoil from those gathered of all nations into the mountains of Israel (Jerusalem). At Armageddon, the armies are fighting Christ.


Zechariah 14:2-4

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:12 pm

prophecyrocks wrote:
Seeker wrote:Show me your scripture placing this event at any other time as I keep asking. You can’t because Israel doesn’t accept Jesus until they see the one they had pierced.


Ditto. I'm waiting for those scriptures as well.


......for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy Rev 19:10....the Jews have the testimony of Jesus Rev 12:17.....thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus Rev 19:10.....God pours out of his Spirit upon all flesh during the last days Acts 2:16-17 referring to Joel....God pours out his Spirit upon the Jews...Zech 12:10. They are Christians during that time, times, and a half time period of the second half of the 7 years.

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Jews at that point will have become Christian having the testimony of Jesus Christ...which the new covenant that was promised to them in Jeremiah 31:31-33...

31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

That's why it says in Rev 12:17 about them keeping the commandments of God as well as having the testimony of Jesus.

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Jesus is that new covenant that was promised in Jeremiah 31:31, as in Hebrew 8, it referes to what is written word for word in Jeremiah 31 above. .....

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Again, read what it says in Revelation 12:17...about keeping the commandments of God because God's laws will be in their minds and written upon their hearts.....
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The Jews are Christians for the second half of the seven years.... which NEGATES yours and Seekers ENTIRE arguments. The Jews don't have to wait until an Armageddon timed Gog/Magog to know their God because they will have been Christians already - 3 1/2 years before Armaggedon.

Don't you get it? Why do you and Seeker keep asking for scripture when I have provided scripture after scripture which according to Revelation 19:10 VERBATIM means that they are Christians...
.....thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus Rev 19:10.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:19 pm

Doug, so you just completely ignored all my replies to you earlier ?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts = spirit of prophecy + all flesh

Zechariah 12:10 "...Spirit of grace and supplication" and only for Israel (not all flesh).

Zech 13:4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision."

Is the spirit mentioned in Acts the same as the spirit mentioned in Zechariah ?
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:26 pm

Seeker wrote:Hi prophecyrocks,

Yeah they can't get around these two.

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


Peace,
Seeker

There is nothing to get around - regarding Ezekiel 39:22. The Jews are Christians for the second 3 1/2 years. And during the first 3 1/2 years, the nation of Israel will return to having a zeal for God. The 7 years following Gog/Magog is the 70th week.

The verse about all men shaking in His presence..... simply means that men around the world will be awe-struck by all of the events that happen within Israel and the in the foreign lands where destruction will also come.

The world will see it on CNN just like the WTC towers came down down and the impact that had.... only magnified a thousand times over.

You and prophecyrocks both are missing the big picture about the Jews being Christians for the second half of the 7 years, and that Israel must be in a state of peace when Gog/Magog attacks.... and you expect us to explain every verse in the bible? :mrgreen: I don't think that is necessary, because since the Jews are Christians for that second 3 1/2 years.... Gog/Magog cannot be timed with Armageddon.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:34 pm

Douggg wrote:I don't think that is necessary, because since the Jews are Christians for that second 3 1/2 years.


Doug may say so. But according to Zechariah, it isn't so.
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:55 pm

prophecyrocks wrote:Doug, so you just completely ignored all my replies to you earlier ?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts = spirit of prophecy + all flesh

Zechariah 12:10 "...Spirit of grace and supplication" and only for Israel (not all flesh).

Zech 13:4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision."

Is the spirit mentioned in Acts the same as the spirit mentioned in Zechariah ?


Part of the problem is in the translation you are using... compare with the KJV that I use...

(???translation) Zech 13:4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision."

(KJV) Zech 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

The answer to your question is that the Spirit of God in Acts is the same Spirit of grace and supplication, which is the same Holy Spirit that testifies of Jesus.

In Zechariah 13:3 those are some within the Jewish ranks who will, not according to the Spirit of God, try to prophesy a rosy scenario concering the events that lay ahead of the Jews for that second 3 1/2 years. They will be false prophets, proved so, when their prophecies fail. There was the same problem back in the days just preceding the Babylonian captivity. Jeremiah delivered a letter to king Hezekiah who at the advice of his false prophet who painted a rosy scenario - took Jeremiah's letter and tore it up. Well, that brought judgment down on Hezekiah and the false prophets. btw, I am not certain, but I was listening to one commentator that Jeremiah ended his days in Egypt dejected by the whole experience, that he wasn't listened to.

Right now within Judaism the teaching among the rabbi's is that many of the end times troubles can be avoided if the Jews followed the Torah, which in their mind means living according the 613 laws of their Talmude.
They rationale behind that thinking is (1) they don't believe the Christian view of the end-times and that they will become Christians as valid (2) because ancient Nineveh repented when Jonah came to pronounce judgment... and they by repentance avoided that judgment.

Anyway, if you read the verses Zechariah 13:3, take a look and you will see that those are false prophets, just like in Jeremiah's day... there will also be the true prophets in Zechariah 13:4....

13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:

13:5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman * *; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.


.....in Zechariah 13:4 those who are given the Spirit of prophesy will be true to God's word, just like Jeremiah was. I don't think they will enjoy making those prophesies...they will be ashamed to have to make them... because like in Jeremiah's day, it won't be a rosey picture for that 3 1/2 year period that they will have to prophesy about.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:18 pm

Hi Triton57,

Israel is going to be protected in the wilderness being refined through fire when Christ returns in glory to take the kingdoms. The Gog/Magog invaders are coming upon Jerusalem when they're wiped out in the mountains of Israel. However, if that is right before Christ's return, Israel isn't in Jerusalem because at the abomination of desolation, 2/3 of Israel were killed and the 1/3 remnant were taken to the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. That's where they'll be when Christ returns, not at Jerusalem.


Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.


Why sound an alarm in the holy mountain if no one is there? Who are the inhabitants of the land (Israel) then?

Isa 10:3 And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?
Isa 10:4 Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep 1:9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep 1:11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Zep 1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.


Jerusalem is inhabited at the time of the Lord’s return. Jesus returns to defeat the AC who is attacking Israel. The Jews are definitely in Israel being attacked when God returns to defeat their enemies. The OT prophets agree on this. Similar stories are scattered throughout the OT. Israel gets invaded, God returns and destroys the invaders, and then gathers Israel to Himself.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:15 pm

Hi Doug,

This is how it happens. I tire of repeating myself so will let God explain it.

....Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock. As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.


Ezekiel 36:16-38

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:35 pm

Douggg wrote:
...there will also be the true prophets in Zechariah 13:4....

.....in Zechariah 13:4 those who are given the Spirit of prophesy will be true to God's word, just like Jeremiah was. I don't think they will enjoy making those prophesies...they will be ashamed to have to make them... because like in Jeremiah's day, it won't be a rosey picture for that 3 1/2 year period that they will have to prophesy about.


There are no mention of true prophets here. Only the false ones who will be ashamed.

Zechariah 12:10 covers the last 7 years. God pours out his spirit upon all flesh during that time - the spirit of grace and supplications.


The reason I question whether or not the spirit poured out in Acts is the same as the spirit poured out in Zech is:

Acts = Spirit of prophesy poured out on ALL flesh.
Intention = visions

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams[/quote]

---------------------------------

Zech = Spirit of grace and supplication for Israel only.
Intention = Mercy

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

I'm not really sure it's the same spirit.

--------------------------------------------

Here's a quick chronology of the events:

1.) "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle..."

2.) "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

3.) "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem"

4.) "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn."

5.) "And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem"

6.) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The spirit (the one mentioned in the zech) that's being poured out, occurs after God comes to their rescue...and this occurs at the latter part of the 70th week. So once again, Israel doesn't come back to the Lord until near the end. Not prior to or in the middle of the 70th week.
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:46 pm

prophecyrocks wrote:
Here's a quick chronology of the events:

1.) "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle..."

2.) "Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

3.) "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem"

4.) "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn."

5.) "And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem"

6.) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The spirit (the one mentioned in the zech) that's being poured out, occurs after God comes to their rescue...and this occurs at the latter part of the 70th week. So once again, Israel doesn't come back to the Lord until near the end. Not prior to or in the middle of the 70th week.


uh....regarding when the Jews become Christians... your chronology is off.
:mrgreen: Jesus is not returning to this earth until the Jews welcome him saying Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord .

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And no-one can say Jesus is Lord except by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And no-one can become a Christian except by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Jews will be Christians years before Jesus returns.

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy... Rev 19:10

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Jews are Christians because having the testimony of Jesus is verbatim what the Angel told John about his Christian brothers. The Jews will have the testimony of Jesus. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Jesus is the truth, the life, and the way. So the Jews who are Christians during that tirme, times, and a half time of the second half of the 7 years, those who prophesy will be true prophets.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:08 pm

Hi Doug, This is how it happens. I tire of repeating myself so will let God explain it.


Brother Seeker, I have those passages and have read them.

God has explained it... but for the sake of saving your theory, you are doing one of these numbers.... :bag: ..... :banghead:

Okay, from those passages you provided.....

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


Who is occupying the land of Israel right now? The Jews. God has brought them back from the nations... not all of them.... but prophetically speaking they have come back to reform the nation of Israel, in 1948. They are living in a paradoxial state of peace right now. Not like it will be during the second half of the seven years.

Now keep in mind what it says in that passage above about about walking in His statues, and keeping His judgments, and doing them..... look at what it says about the Jews during the second half of the 7 years....

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

They keep the commandments of God because they have accepted the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31-33, about God writing his laws upon their hearts. In other words instead of keeping the letter of the law - like now - with things like they don't turn on a light bulb on the Sabbath, or start a car because it is an internal combustion engine, which they interpret as starting a fire which they were prohibited from doing - they will keep the spirit of the law.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:15 pm

BeTheMoon wrote:
bchandler wrote:Because Israel failed to take by faith what God had miraculously given them in 1967 (Jerusalem and the Temple mount) there was another 14000 day judgement period which brings us to Rosh Hashana (September 2005).


I just re-read this (very intriguing--sp?). If this is correct, then the return IS closer than we think! 3.5 years after 09/05 would be around Spring 2008.

The Biblical framework for the 70th week, puts the abomination of desolation at 1290 days before the end of the week, which is 1230 days into the seven years. If Rosh Hashanah '05 marked the start of the week, then the abomination of desolation would be February 16, 2009.

This is taken from the exact day prophecies of Daniel and John. When you put them together, they create a precise framework of exact days between events. If Rosh Hashanah is plugged into that framework for the 70th week, this is what comes up. Notice some of the dates for some events..
Image
For instance, Christ's return in glory would land precisely on the 9th of Av. What I find fascinating about that is that Yeshua told Israel that they would not see Him until they accepted Him and petitioned His return. We know that armies are gathered to Armageddon to fight the Lord. Could this be the straw that broke the camel's back? Might Israel, in the wilderness, see these massive armies headed for Jerusalem on the 9th of Av, the same historic day that both the first two temples were destroyed among other tragedies, and call upon their Messiah?

Also, March 18, 2009 would mark 30 days from the abomination of desolation. This is the limit of time that the dragon can get Israel because she is protected in the wilderness for 1260 days. We also know that this time is cut short. What I find interesting is that Purim is celebrated March 9, 2009. Given what this feast signifies, and that it is 22 days after the abomination of desolation (8 days shorter than the 30 days given by the framework), could this be the feast day that Israel is taken into the wilderness?

Another interesting time is April 6, 2009 which is the 70th Jubilee Year. John P. Pratt, "Correlating that day to our calendar implies that Joshua passed over Jordan on Mon 12 Apr 1422 BC.[1] An extremely impressive anniversary of that date is approaching. Mon 6 Apr 2009 will mark exactly seventy jubilees on the (Perpetual) Hebrew Calendar since that date.[2] The year of the jubilee has been lost to modern Hebrews, but the results of my research indicate that the jubilee year occurred in that very year of entering the Promised Land. The Lord told Moses to begin counting sabbath years and the jubilee cycle when they entered the promised land (Lev. 25), which suggests beginning the count immediately at that time.[3] The jubilee is the fiftieth year after the cycle begins, but the cycle only has seven sets of seven years, or 49 years. Thus, the 50th year of the cycle is the same as the first year of the cycle.[4] That and several other events indicate that they indeed entered the promised land in a jubilee year.[5] The year 2009 marks 70 sets of 49-year jubilee cycles since 1422 BC.[6]"

Is this all conclusive? No, but I have a real hard time dismissing it all. I don't believe in coincidence and this study is chalk full of it. I'd like to point out that the dates were not finagled by myself. As I mentioned before, I didn't have dates in my initial framework of the 70th week taken from the exact day prophecies. However, the 14,000 days study came to my mind when I completed the framework so I decided to see what would happen if I put in that date, October 5, 2005. The dates are the result of adding the exact days from that start point using a date calculator.
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Postby prophecyrocks on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:19 pm

Doug, you have your view and that's fine. But I've said all that I could.

God Bless !! :grin:
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Postby Triton57 on Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:30 pm

1whowaits wrote:Perhaps the passage that might apply is Ezekiel 4, which gives a specific period of time for the 'seige of Jerusalem'. God stated in Ezek. 4 that the period of the seige due to the sins of Israel, the northern kingdom, would be 390 days representing 390 years. The period of punishment for the northern kingdom began with the seige of Samaria, roughly in 723-724 BC. (2 Kings 17:9)

After the period of 390 years, the northern kingdom did not return to the Lord, so it would appear that the passage in Lev. 26 would apply- 'if after all these things you do not listen to me, I will chastise you seven times more for your sin'.

The math could be as follows- 390 x 7 = 2,730 yrs x 360 days (hebrew calendar) =982,800 days -:- 365.25 days (current calendar) =2,690.7 years of punishment

2,690.7 years -723 (BC) =1967.7

And in fact the seige of Jerusalem for the northern kingdom and the nation Israel did end in june of 1967.

But God also stated that there was a further seige of Jerusalem for the southern kingdom, Judah , for 40 years, which was described after the seige of Jerusaem for the northern kingdom.

While the northern kingdom consisted of the 10 tribes, the southern kingdom consisted of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of David the king, the tirbe of Benjamin, and the Levites, the priests. The implication could be that the seige of Jerusalem would continue for the ruling tribe and the priests, which has in fact been the case for the last 40 years.

Because of the Islamic control of the temple mount Israel, altough she may have the legal right and military might to do so, Judah has not ruled over that area for the past 40 years. And because of the Islamic control of the temple mount the tribe of the priests, the Levites, have not had access to the area most precious to them.

The seige of Jerusalem for the southern kingdom has continued beyond the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 until the present day. If Ezek. 4 is describing the current 'seige of Jerusalem' that seige should end this year, in June 2007, when the 40 years will be completed.

If this is the case, will Israel return to the Lord this year or will the time of seige be multiplied times seven as it was for the northern kingdom?

And what event might bring such a return of Israel to the Lord? What event would allow the Israeli people to reassert their authority over the temple mount, and perhaps even rebuild the temple?

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing.
Phillip
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:07 am

Brother Triton, there are some problems with the chart.

Point 1.

You show the Great Tribulation only 30 days long.... and only for Israel.

Jesus said the Great Tribulation tests everyone alive..... not just Israel.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

You reference Matthew Matt24:15-22, but in those verses....Jesus said...
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Point 2

You show the 1290 days ending precisely at the end of the 2520 days of the 7 years. It should be the 1335th day.... when Jesus returns to rescue the Jews, ending their ordeal and the seven years.

You show no time for the world's armies to assemble at Armageddon, i.e. the 1290 days from the 1335 day = 45 days.

Point 3

You show no Gog/Magog event

Point 4

You show the marriage supper of the Lamb occuring 45 days after the 70 weeks. The marriage supper of the Lamb is completed when Jesus destroys the armies of the world, the Antichrist, and the false prophet ending the tribulation period.

19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Point 5
The Jews become Christians at the exact midpoint because 2520 days - 1260 days of Rev 12:6 = 1260 days.

But the time that they are protected from Satan - which you show as the 1260 days is wrong... because Revelation 12:14 says....


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


because it is something slightly different than 1260 days.....LESS THAN the 1260 days.... as Satan is booted down to earth after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6.

Sometime just past the midpoint...Satan enters the AOD that the false prophet has had the world make and setup to be worshipped at
at 2520 days (the 7 years) - 1335 days = 1185 days from the confirming of the covenant. Put a line showing the AOD setup to be worshipped 1185 days from the start...then another line from that point showing the 1290 days...then another line from that point. ..45 days long for the assembly of the armies at armageddon... to the exact end of the 7 years... and you would have it right...:mrgreen: Try it and see what it looks like.

I don't have a problem with your 42 month timeframe with the reing of the beast to the end of the 7 years. The AOD, however, is made (1260-1185) 75 days prior to the exact mid-point. Whether that is done after the Antichrist is killed, I don't know. It could be that the Antichrist goes into the temple, declares himself to be god, revealing himself to be the Man of Sin, (the beast is his designation after he ascends from the bottomless pit) before the midpoint, and also the false prophet has the image made.... just like Antiochus Ephinanes haf the statue put into the temple of Zeus, who Antiochus claimed that he himself was the incarnation of in the flesh. And in a possible scenario when the Antichrist goes into the temple prior to the exact mid-point..... someone kills him.

Point 6

The scale at the bottom of the chart showing Oct 5, 2005 starting the 70th week is .... :dizzy: because you have no Gog/Magog event having occured.

The Gog/Magog event will precede the 70th week.... the 7 years of burning the remains of battle for fuel is the 70th week.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:38 am

prophecyrocks wrote:Doug, you have your view and that's fine. But I've said all that I could.

God Bless !! :grin:
:blessyou: :sunshine: :praise:

Peace,

Doug L. :mrgreen:
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:44 am

Douggg wrote:Brother Triton, there are some problems with the chart.

Point 1.

You show the Great Tribulation only 30 days long.... and only for Israel.

Jesus said the Great Tribulation tests everyone alive..... not just Israel.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come * upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

You reference Matthew Matt24:15-22, but in those verses....Jesus said...
24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Thanks for pointing that out, I need to fix the chart. The great tribulation is 3 1/2 years long and is the time that satan persecutes the Jews and followers of Christ from the abomination of desolation until Christ returns in glory. It is viewed in two perspectives. What is labelled as the great tribulation should actually be labelled the "time of Jacob's trouble."

The first is that unparalleled time just after the abomination of desolation, the time of Jacob's trouble. It is what Christ covered in Matthew 24:15-22 and is also prophesied in Daniel 12:1 and Jeremiah 30:4-7. It is specifically focused on Israel, which can also be seen in Revelation 12:13-16. The dragon initially is focused on the Jews in Judea. Once they are protected in the wilderness for 1260 days, he then goes after her remnant (not in Judea) and those holding the testimony of Christ.

The second is marked by Revelation 12:17, when the dragon can't get Israel any more, so he goes worldwide looking for her remnant and Christians. This is about 30 days after the abomination of desolation. Revelation 3:10 speaks to some of the church being kept from this time and Revelation 2:22 speaks to some of the church being cast into this time of great tribulation. I believe this can be seen in the parable of the 10 virgins. Matthew 25:1-13 I believe the rapture of the bride is pre-wrath. I believe the sixth seal comes about 30 days after the abomination of desolation. Matthew 24:29 ("tribulation of those days" being the unparalleled time spoken of earlier in the chapter, Matthew 24:15-22)

Something to keep in mind about no flesh being saved, it's in reference to the elect being spoken of in that unparalleled time that specifically for Israel. Israel was also called elect. Isaiah 45:4 | Isaiah 65:9 Everything about Matthew 24:15-22 is pointing to Israel. Only those in Judea are told to run, this time is marked by the abomination of desolation in the temple in Jerusalem. Revelation 12:13-17 shows how the dragon is only interested in the complete genocide of Israel before moving outside of Judea.

I think this will be because in the time before the abomination of desolation, Israel will be coming back to God in their old Jewish ways with sacrifices, etc. If Gog/Magog happens before then too, they won't be polluting God's name anymore and seeing Him save them from the attack, I think a lot of Jews will Aliyah back to Israel. This will get much of Israel in one place, Judea. Anti-Semitism is Satanic and Islam really wants to wipe out the Jews. So will the antichrist, essentially being Satan incarnate.

So none of Israel's flesh would be saved if God didn't take them into the wilderness because the antichrist's goal is the complete destruction of the Jews, genocide.
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:54 am

Douggg wrote:Point 2

You show the 1290 days ending precisely at the end of the 2520 days of the 7 years. It should be the 1335th day.... when Jesus returns to rescue the Jews, ending their ordeal and the seven years.

You show no time for the world's armies to assemble at Armageddon, i.e. the 1290 days from the 1335 day = 45 days.

I have a different take on the 1335 days. The context of Daniel 12:11 is within the 70th week of Daniel, 1290 days from the abomination of desolation. Then there's an additional 45 days from that point ending at the 1335 day mark. What could be taking place 45 days into the millennial reign of Christ that would bless those who come to it?
    Revelation 19:7-9
    Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
The marriage of the Lamb and marriage supper of the Lamb are two different events. The marriage of the Lamb happens in heaven before Christ returns in glory. (This also demonstrates that the bride, in order to attend, must be caught up to heaven before Christ returns in glory.)

The marriage supper of the Lamb is like the reception. If you look at the ancient Jewish wedding customs, the marriage supper was when the groom presented his wife to the guests for the first time unvieled. I believe the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place on the earth during the millennium and Christ will present His bride.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:55 am

Douggg wrote:Point 3

You show no Gog/Magog event

Yes, I should add that. I believe it will happen between now and before the abomination of desolation.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:57 am

Douggg wrote:Point 4

You show the marriage supper of the Lamb occuring 45 days after the 70 weeks. The marriage supper of the Lamb is completed when Jesus destroys the armies of the world, the Antichrist, and the false prophet ending the tribulation period.

19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

How does the feeding of birds with the dead flesh of the Armageddon armies equate to the marriage of Christ and the church? Can you honestly say that the supper of the great God for the birds is the same event as the marriage supper of the Lamb?
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:25 am

Douggg wrote:Point 5
The Jews become Christians at the exact midpoint because 2520 days - 1260 days of Rev 12:6 = 1260 days.

But the time that they are protected from Satan - which you show as the 1260 days is wrong... because Revelation 12:14 says....


Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


because it is something slightly different than 1260 days.....LESS THAN the 1260 days.... as Satan is booted down to earth after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6.

Sometime just past the midpoint...Satan enters the AOD that the false prophet has had the world make and setup to be worshipped at
at 2520 days (the 7 years) - 1335 days = 1185 days from the confirming of the covenant. Put a line showing the AOD setup to be worshipped 1185 days from the start...then another line from that point showing the 1290 days...then another line from that point. ..45 days long for the assembly of the armies at armageddon... to the exact end of the 7 years... and you would have it right...:mrgreen: Try it and see what it looks like.

"a time, and times, and half a time" is 3 1/2 years. On the prophetic calendar, there are 12 30-day months. 12x30=360 days in a year
(360 x 3) + (360 x .5) = 1260 days

I'll have to look deeper at the framework you gave, thanks for the input!

Douggg wrote:I don't have a problem with your 42 month timeframe with the reing of the beast to the end of the 7 years. The AOD, however, is made (1260-1185) 75 days prior to the exact mid-point. Whether that is done after the Antichrist is killed, I don't know. It could be that the Antichrist goes into the temple, declares himself to be god, revealing himself to be the Man of Sin, (the beast is his designation after he ascends from the bottomless pit) before the midpoint, and also the false prophet has the image made.... just like Antiochus Ephinanes haf the statue put into the temple of Zeus, who Antiochus claimed that he himself was the incarnation of in the flesh. And in a possible scenario when the Antichrist goes into the temple prior to the exact mid-point..... someone kills him.

My personal belief as of now on how the abomination of desolation will go down... I believe Michael is the restrainer (restraining the revealing of the man of sin). When he stops restraining, he will stand up. In Revelation 12, we see that Michael and his angels are the ones who cast Satan out of heaven to the earth. So what I think happens is Michael goes to heaven to cast Lucifer out. This leaves no restraining on the man of sin revealing himself, so he does. When he does, the Orthadox Jews will view it as the abomination of desolation and we know what happened with the Maccabean revolt when Antiochus IV did it.

I think some fervent Jews will assassinate the man of sin with the headwound. At that point, Michael throws Lucifer and the fallen angels out of heaven. We know that Satan gives his power to the beast, Revelation 13:5, so the world will marvel when he is actually still alive. Having just declared himself god, this will add to the supporting miracles.

At that point, I believe he will wage war against the intolerant Jews who tried to kill him. I believe he will employ the vast Muslim armies just waiting for the moment they will get to kill the Jews. That moment will come in the aftermath of the abomination of desolation. I think that we may even see rocks and trees crying out that Jews are behind them (lying signs and wonders). Since this is part of Muslim eschatology, it would increase their faith in their new little god. That's my view as of now.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:29 am

Triton57 wrote:
Douggg wrote:Point 4

You show the marriage supper of the Lamb occuring 45 days after the 70 weeks. The marriage supper of the Lamb is completed when Jesus destroys the armies of the world, the Antichrist, and the false prophet ending the tribulation period.

19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

How does the feeding of birds with the dead flesh of the Armageddon armies equate to the marriage of Christ and the church? Can you honestly say that the supper of the great God for the birds is the same event as the marriage supper of the Lamb?


No, not exactly, by itself. IMHO, the marriage supper of the Lamb is after the bema seat of Christ, and from that point whenever the judgement seat of Christ of the believers ends.... the marriage supper of the Lamb begins in heaven and is concluded by the supper of the great God to bring the Kingdom of God to this earth.

To me, the timeframe in terms of days and dates, the marriage supper of the Lamb is not precisely specified.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:34 am

Triton57 wrote:
Douggg wrote:Point 2

You show the 1290 days ending precisely at the end of the 2520 days of the 7 years. It should be the 1335th day.... when Jesus returns to rescue the Jews, ending their ordeal and the seven years.

You show no time for the world's armies to assemble at Armageddon, i.e. the 1290 days from the 1335 day = 45 days.

I have a different take on the 1335 days. The context of Daniel 12:11 is within the 70th week of Daniel, 1290 days from the abomination of desolation. Then there's an additional 45 days from that point ending at the 1335 day mark. What could be taking place 45 days into the millennial reign of Christ that would bless those who come to it?
    Revelation 19:7-9
    Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
The marriage of the Lamb and marriage supper of the Lamb are two different events. The marriage of the Lamb happens in heaven before Christ returns in glory. (This also demonstrates that the bride, in order to attend, must be caught up to heaven before Christ returns in glory.)

The marriage supper of the Lamb is like the reception. If you look at the ancient Jewish wedding customs, the marriage supper was when the groom presented his wife to the guests for the first time unvieled. I believe the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place on the earth during the millennium and Christ will present His bride.


That 1290 days and 1335th day definitely has some complications to it. More so than I eluded to in my point to you.

I think I have it figured out.... but really I need to make my own chart as verbally I can not make it clear enough.... :dizzy:

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:39 am

Douggg wrote:Point 6

The scale at the bottom of the chart showing Oct 5, 2005 starting the 70th week is .... :dizzy: because you have no Gog/Magog event having occured.

The Gog/Magog event will precede the 70th week.... the 7 years of burning the remains of battle for fuel is the 70th week.

I don't see any reason why the seven years of burning can't go past the 70th week of Daniel.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Triton57
 
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