Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:57 am

Hey Douggg, I made the changes to the chart. If they don't show up, hit refresh.

I added the Gog/Magog attack to the chart when I currently believe it will take place. I also made the changes to make the great tribulation more clear that it is the 3 1/2 years, no 30 days while marking the 30 day period as the time of Jacob's trouble as scripture states. Thanks for pointing those mistakes out!
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:58 am

Hi brother Trinton....

"a time, and times, and half a time" is 3 1/2 years.


No, it's not!!! That's what I have been trying to tell you. It is not the same as the 1260 days - exact 3 1/2 years. It is less time than the 1260 days.

I will explain....

In Rev 12:6 the Jews are in a spiritual wilderness 1260 days. So 2520 - 1260 days means afterwards that they are no longer in that spiritual wilderness, but have become Christians for the second half of the 7 years, 1260 days they are Christians.... rationally speaking, I think we can agree on that point.

But here's where the distinction comes in of why the time, times, and a half times in Revelation 12:14 is not the exact 1260 day 3 1/2 years of the second half of the seven years. Keep in mind we are splitting hairs now, brother Triton. But bear with me, because it is still important....we want to be exactly right...:a2:

Right AFTER the 1260 days....of Rev 12:6.... there is war in heaven Rev 12:7. We don't know how many days that war lasts....or if it is just one day. We just don't know.... but the 1260 days are past.... So Satan is kicked down to earth with less than 1260 days to go. Knowing that he has but a little time....

That is why the expression a time, times, and a half times is used for when the Jews are protected from Satan's persecution.... right up until the day that Jesus returns. THere is a GAP between day 1260 and when Satan finds himself here on terra firma. We don't know how big that GAP is, but there are less than the 1260 day 3 1/2 years left till the end of the 2520 days, i.e 7 years, from when Satan lands here on earth.

Comprehende....:mrgreen: ?

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:08 pm

Seeker wrote:This can be settled quite easily. Show the scriptures that show the events in Eze 38-39 occuring prior to the end of the last 7 years. I have taken the time to provide at least one other verse in each point of Eze 38-39 in many cases several verses that support what I claim. It isn't hard if your view fits Eze 38-39 then you should be able to produce scripture that relates directly to what is said. I issued the challenge and just as I expected not one single verse has been offered in direct comparision to the scripture in Eze 38-39. This happens constantly with Doug. I just want to see all his scriptures that say this event happens before the 70th week is over. Not that difficult of a task if ones view fits the scripture they are referring. I suspect he can't find more than maybe one verse that might correspond directly to Eze 38-39. Are you guys afraid to compare your proof to what Eze 38-39 says? I am certain his list will fall way short when directly compared to Eze 38-39. We can settle this today if Doug will provide comparable scripture. But no I am not backing down until I see this comparision I ask for. After we compare each others scripture we will see who has the most valid points related to Eze 38-39.

There are several possibilities of when Gog/Magog could happen. Let's examine the scriptures that lay it out for us...
_____________________________________________________________
Armageddon???
    Ezekiel 38:8-12
    After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
This passage tells us first and foremost that this takes place in the latter years. This also tells us that Israel, gathered from the nations to the land of Israel, is living at rest, dwelling safely without walls, bars, or gates. This removes the possibility of this coinciding with Armageddon because Israel isn't even in Jerusalem at that point.
    Revelation 12:14
    And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
_____________________________________________________________
After the millennium???
    Ezekiel 39:6,7
    And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD. So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
From what I understand of Bible prophecy, this eliminates Gog/Magog from after the millennium. Why? The heathens recognize God through the time His wrath is poured out. Also, does that mean that Israel will pollute God's name through the millennium?

It's because of this passage that I view Gog/Magog as the initial clear intervention by God during the end times. This is the point where the earth has to either accept God or reject Him, but they won't be able to deny Him because Ezekiel 38,39 are so clear. When this event happens, the world will know the God of Israel exists.

This is also why I believe Gog/Magog is what brings more of Israel back to following God as a nation. I think they will take Him seriously after that and it will spur their desire to rebuild the temple.
_____________________________________________________________
Before the 70th Week???
    Ezekiel 39:8-10
    Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken. And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years: So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
In reality, I don't believe there is any further defining of when Gog/Magog specifically happens, but once it does we will know. The views that are left are that Gog/Magog happens either before the 70th week or before the abomination of desolation. This passage is used by some to imply that Gog/Magog happens before the 70th week since they burn the weapons for 7 years. I personally think that's a big assumption that can't really be supported. There's nothing in the above scripture which says these weapons can't be burned during the millennium when Christ is reigning.
_____________________________________________________________
So given the scriptures above, here's how the possibilities look:
  • O Before the 70th week (This is still a possibility, but I personally think it will be during the first part of the 70th week of Daniel. I'm always up to learn the ways I'm wrong though! :mrgreen: )
  • O Before the abomination of desolation (Because of my studies that lead me to believe we're already in the 70th week of Daniel, I lean toward this timing. If you look at my Gog/Magog news page, I think you'll agree how close we could be.)
  • X Armageddon (Israel not dwelling in Jerusalem, they're in the wilderness)
  • X End of the millennium (Israel and the world will know God long before Gog/Magog if this is when it happens. It seems pretty clearly stated though that this event will make everyone realize God is real and present. This doesn't fit if Christ has been ruling from Jerusalem for 1,000 years already.)
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:53 pm

Seeker wrote:Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

The God Israel worships is our Father in heaven. They won't recognize Christ until just before He returns in glory when they call upon Him. There's no banner or voice from heaven mentioned when God wipes out the Gog/Magog armies. If the Jews don't believe in Christ now, but recognize God the Father, they will attribute this defense of their nation as being at the hand of the Father, not the Son.

So in their minds, having not accepted Christ yet, they will turn back to God in their old ways. They will see a great need to rebuild the temple because it's central to what they know of God and what was required of them in the past. This is why I think we'll see a great increase in orthadox Judaism after Gog/Magog. It isn't until later that they recognize Christ. Ezekiel 39:22 doesn't say they will recognize the diety of Yeshua the Christ. It says they will know He is the Lord their God. And given how detailed Ezekiel 38,39 are, I think it will require much twisting to attribute what will happen to the Gog/Magog armies as resulting from anyone but God because it's prophesied by Ezekiel all those thousands of years ago.

Seeker wrote:Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown downH2040, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    Shall be thrown down (H2040)
    hâras (haw-ras')
    A primitive root; to pull down or in pieces, break, destroy: - beat down, break (down, through), destroy, overthrow, pluck down, pull down, ruin, throw down, X utterly.
Given the fire and brimstone that is rained down on the Gog/Magog armies, perhaps this beating down/breaking down of the mountains is the result of this bombardment from space?
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:02 pm

Seeker wrote:There is an earthquake so powerful that every living thing on the face of the earth shakes when it happens. There is a definite physical earthquake spoken of here. God adds “at His presence” as well. Where do we see a similar event?

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Isa 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.


Those are scriptures that have the same earthquake Ezekiel is talking about. Notice when they all occur. There is the proof I offer that this event in Eze 38:19-20 occurs near the end of the last 7 years. Refute it will scripture showing otherwise. Show me an earthquake that shakes every creature on earth before the end of the last 7 years.

The Gog/Magog attack comes when Israel is living in safety in unwalled villages, etc. That is not the status of Israel just before Armageddon.
    Revelation 12:14
    And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Also,
  • Revelation 6:12 is the sixth seal
  • Revelation 11:13 is the two witnesses resurrection. The seventh trumpet and seven bowls/vials are still yet to come
  • Revelation 16:18-21 is the seventh bowl/vial
I don't see how these are all the same time. The seven trumpets aren't even given out until after the seventh seal is opened. And the fifth trumpet alone is 5 months of agony from the demon locust stings.
    Revelation 8:1,2
    And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:37 pm

prophecyrocks wrote:
Triton57 wrote:However, if that is right before Christ's return, Israel isn't in Jerusalem


Zechariah 5-9:
5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.

8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Who are these inhabitants of Jerusalem then ?

Israel are the current inhabitants of Jerusalem, but they won't be after the abomination of desolation because the antichrist will try to kill them all. He will get 2/3 of them, but the rest will be taken into the wilderness where they will remain for 3 1/2 years. Zechariah 13:8,9

I believe the passage above you presented is the Six-Day-War. That was the point that Israel took Jerusalem once again. "In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem." That's what happened with the Six-Day-War. There were lots of reports of miracles by the soldiers as well. I belive God fought for Israel and gave them back their land as promised. Prophetically speaking, Israel doesn't need to worry about losing her national identity and they don't have to worry about losing their land until the man of sin declares himself god in their temple. There have always been wars and rumors of wars, but God promised Israel would remain.

prophecyrocks wrote:
Triton57 wrote:Ezekiel 38,39 speaks to the attackers coming to take spoil from those gathered of all nations into the mountains of Israel (Jerusalem). At Armageddon, the armies are fighting Christ.


Zechariah 14:2-4
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This would be when the Lord returns in glory after the seals, trumpets, and bowls are finished and the wrath of God is filled up. Revelation 15:1 This is Armageddon. Notice in Zechariah 12:6, "I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem."

In that passage, the members of Israel participate. In Armageddon, it's all Christ.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:27 pm

Hi Doug,

You reference Rev 19:10 as some kind of proof that the Jews are Christians during the last 3 ½ years.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

What does John, falling at the feet of an angel, have to do with the last 3 ½ years? The angel is simply saying hey I am not God don’t worship me. The angel says “I am thy fellowservant”. He is a servant of God as John is. And he is a servant of John’s brethren (Christians of John’s time). The angel is just telling John he serves God and is not to be worshiped.

Doug, are you saying also that Acts 2:17, which references Joel 2, occurs at the 3.5 year mark or thereabouts? If that is so I think you should review Joel 2. The very first verse in Joel 2 tells us this is very near the “day of the Lord”. Let’s step through the course of events that happen prior to God pouring His spirit out on Israel.

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. (Joel 2:1-2)

Let all the inhabitants of Israel tremble for the day of the Lord cometh. Then the description of that day of the Lord continues. A day of darkness…etc. There has never been an army like it and there won’t be another after it for many generations (generation ~40-70 years). One generation is what ~40 to 70 years depending on which interpretation you choose. There won’t be a greater army than this one for many generations after this army invades Israel.

A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
(Joel 2:3-9).

This is indeed a very mighty army arrayed here. Nothing escapes them and falling on swords doesn’t wound them.

The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?(Joel 2:10-11).

Here we see the cosmic signs which can be connected to Matthew 24 which in turn provides us with the timing of this event.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The tribulation begins at the AoD in Matthew 24:15 and ends just before the cosmic signs. The AoD occurs at the midpoint of the last 7 years. The tribulation from the AC ends after the power that the AC has over the saints ends. The AC has power over the saints for 3 ½ years.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


It was given to him to make war with the saints and overcome them.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The AC makes war with the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. When do the saints possess the kingdom?

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


After 3 ½ years judgment sits and the kingdom and dominion will be given to the saints of the most High. The AC makes war with and overcomes the saints for 3 ½ years until they possess the kingdom of God. It is very clear what this says. We know that the AC begins his tribulation at the 3.5 year mark. We know that tribulation ends 3 ½ years after it starts. We know that immediately after that tribulation we have the cosmic signs. So now we know that the cosmic signs occur around 3 ½ years after the AoD. They occur just prior to the day of the Lord just as Joel 2 says.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Now going back to the beginning of the portion quoted in Acts 2 we see this.

Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
Joe 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.


After the northern army has been driven off God pours out in abundance in Israel. His people will never be ashamed.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


And they will know that the Lord is in the midst of Israel and that He is the Lord their God and there is no other God. His people will never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward….Notice that word “afterward”? After all these things and Israel knowing the Lord is in the midst of her, God pours out His spirit.

Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Acts 2 is referring to Joel 2 which is talking about at the end of the last 7 years thus “the last days”. Matthew 24 and Joel 2 agree completely in sequence of events and timing. And we can throw Rev 6 in.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


The cosmic signs are shown just prior to the wrath of the Lamb which occurs when Jesus arrives at Armageddon.

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


This agrees with Zechariah.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


It agrees with Isaiah.

Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


And of course it agrees with Joel 3. It is unanimous they all say the same thing. The Lord saves Israel very near the end of the last 7 years. The Jews accept Christ at this time not at the midpoint as you suggest. The pouring out of spirit in all cases is linked to the end of the last 7 years that is when God brings Israel back into the fold. After the fullness of Gentiles has come in.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:53 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

You reference Rev 19:10 as some kind of proof that the Jews are Christians during the last 3 ½ years.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

What does John, falling at the feet of an angel, have to do with the last 3 ½ years? The angel is simply saying hey I am not God don’t worship me. The angel says “I am thy fellowservant”. He is a servant of God as John is. And he is a servant of John’s brethren (Christians of John’s time). The angel is just telling John he serves God and is not to be worshiped.


Brother Seeker, there are certain verses which provide "Foundational Elements" to the end times big picture. Those set the timeframes and provide cornerstones upon which the timeframe and interactivity of all the other elements must fit.

A few of these "Foundational Elements" are:

1. The confirming of the covenant in Daniel 9 starts the last 7years.

2. Gog/Magog attacks when Israel is in peace, Ezekiel 38

3. Jesus comes back and destroys the armies of the world who have gathered to fight him, Revelation 19

4. The two witnesses prophesy and minister for 1260 days.

That the Jews will have become Christians for that second half of the 7 years is one of those "Foundational Elements". The point I was making in referring to Revelation 19:10 is that it sets in concrete, without question, that when it says in Revelation 12:17 that the Jews have the testimony of Jesus - they are Christians.

I don't argue that the Angel was saying that he was a fellowservant ofJohn and his brethern....meaning the Angel too serves Jesus. John's brethern serve Jesus, as the Angel indicates, by saying that they "have the testimony of Jesus". That verbatim exact phrase of "have the testimony of Jesus" is used in Revelation 12:17 regarding the Jews for that second three and a half years.....the words of the Angel puntuates that they are Christians.

That the Jews are Christians for the second three and a half years is a "Foundational Element" to the big picutre of the end times. We build our understanding of the end times around those foundational elements.

Doug, are you saying also that Acts 2:17, which references Joel 2, occurs at the 3.5 year mark or thereabouts? If that is so I think you should review Joel 2. The very first verse in Joel 2 tells us this is very near the “day of the Lord”. Let’s step through the course of events that happen prior to God pouring His spirit out on Israel.


No, I am not saying that Acts 2:17 begins at the 3.5 mark. Regarding the timeframe, I am saying exactly what Act 2:17 says.....

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

.... the last days.

You have put forth effort into a lengthly presentation of when you think the day of the Lord begins. The day of the Lord is not the issue, brother seeker, it says "last days" in Acts 2:17....although you have erred by reading into the verses "the Day of the Lord doesn't begin until...." then you start quoting the verses.

Seeker, when do the last days begins? There is at least one reference in the nt that Paul, I think it was Paul - I could be wrong, said that in "these last days" referring to the time which he himself was living. I have heard one bible commentator to justify what Paul said with our time 2000 years later, and I agree with him, say that we are living in the "last" of the "last days".

To me, the last days is the last generation, which IMHO began in 1948, with specific focus upon the timeframe of the seven years and just before.

The "last days" in Acts 2:17 certainly doesn't mean that those begin "after" Jesus has returned.

God pours out of his Spirit upon all flesh during the last days. And as a result, many will prophesy according to the vision and dreams that they receive.

And which is why I was referring to Revelation 19:10....which the Angel spoke....."the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy"...... and the Jews in Revelation 12:17.....are verbatim said to have the testimony of Jesus for that final three and a half years.... to tie in what Act 2:17 says about God pouring out of his Sprit in the last days... giving many the ability to prophesy.

That God pours out of his Spirit during the last days... is that Holy Spirit will work to draw men to God and Jesus in unparalled urgency and strength. That is why there are multitudes of martyred tribulation saints pictured in Revelation 7, that the work of the Holy Spirit has drawn them to salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I want to repeat that, to me, the last days of Act 2:17 covers more than just the second three and a half years, but the entire seven years and just prior to the seven years.
And of course it agrees with Joel 3. It is unanimous they all say the same thing. The Lord saves Israel very near the end of the last 7 years. The Jews accept Christ at this time not at the midpoint as you suggest. The pouring out of spirit in all cases is linked to the end of the last 7 years that is when God brings Israel back into the fold. After the fullness of Gentiles has come in.


The Lord does save Israel at the end of the last 7 years, agreed....but FROM PHYSICAL DESTRUCTION. The Jews have accepted Jesus as saviour years before.... in Revelation 17:12.... it says...."Jesus CHRIST".... Christ, annointed one, meaning saviour.

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and
have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That the Jews have become Christians for that second three and a half years is a "Foundational Element" to the end times big picture, brother Seeker. :a2:

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:49 am

Douggg wrote:
Triton57 wrote:"a time, and times, and half a time" is 3 1/2 years.


No, it's not!!! That's what I have been trying to tell you. It is not the same as the 1260 days - exact 3 1/2 years. It is less time than the 1260 days.

I will explain....

In Rev 12:6 the Jews are in a spiritual wilderness 1260 days. So 2520 - 1260 days means afterwards that they are no longer in that spiritual wilderness, but have become Christians for the second half of the 7 years, 1260 days they are Christians.... rationally speaking, I think we can agree on that point.

But here's where the distinction comes in of why the time, times, and a half times in Revelation 12:14 is not the exact 1260 day 3 1/2 years of the second half of the seven years. Keep in mind we are splitting hairs now, brother Triton. But bear with me, because it is still important....we want to be exactly right...:a2:

Right AFTER the 1260 days....of Rev 12:6.... there is war in heaven Rev 12:7. We don't know how many days that war lasts....or if it is just one day. We just don't know.... but the 1260 days are past.... So Satan is kicked down to earth with less than 1260 days to go. Knowing that he has but a little time....
    Revelation 13:4,5
    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
42 months is 1260 days. This transition of Satan being cast down and giving his power to the beast happens around the abomination of desolation. What we do know about the war is that Michael is the one leading the battle that throws Lucifer out.

What's interesting is that the man of sin can't be revealed until the restrainer is removed. When that happens, the antichrist reveals himself and that starts the time of Jacob's trouble. Matthew 24:15-22 | Jeremiah 30:4-7
    Daniel 12:1
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
For this reason, I believe Michael is the restrainer of the revealing of the antichrist. When Michael leaves for heaven to cast out Satan, the man of sin is no longer restrained. He declares himself god in the temple, and is assassinated (headwound) by zealous Jews who see the abomination of desolation for what it is. (Maccabean revolt when Antiochus IV did this before) After Michael goes to heaven, the war begins and Satan is cast out. When he is, he revives the beast.
    Revelation 13:2,3
    And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
This will validate to many his claim of being god. I think he will use this opportunity to turn the world of his followers against the Jews and the time of Jacob's trouble will ensue where 2/3 of the Jews in Judea will be slaughtered. A 1/3 remnant will be protected from the dragon for the "time, times, and half a time" in the wilderness.

What I'm getting at is that Satan is the one who gives the beast his power for 1260 days, so the "little time" has to be 1260 days or more, not less. We know the dragon gets 2/3 of Israel, Zechariah 13:8,9. We also know that he is given power for the same length of time as Israel is protected from him. But since he gets 2/3 of them, these times are offset somehow.

The 1260 days can't be past at the point of the abomination of desolation because of...
    Daniel 12:11
    And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The week is 2520 days. (7 x 360) 2520 - 1290 = 1230 days. So from the beginning of the week to the abomination of desolation would be 1230.
Image

Douggg wrote:That is why the expression a time, times, and a half times is used for when the Jews are protected from Satan's persecution.... right up until the day that Jesus returns. THere is a GAP between day 1260 and when Satan finds himself here on terra firma. We don't know how big that GAP is, but there are less than the 1260 day 3 1/2 years left till the end of the 2520 days, i.e 7 years, from when Satan lands here on earth.

Comprehende....:mrgreen: ?

I got you, I just don't agree for the reasons above. Satan gives his power to the beast for 1260 days, which starts the great tribulation. From that point, there is 1290 days until the end. Daniel 12:11 Israel is protected from the dragon for the same time the dragon has power. (About the same time in your view.) The dragon still gets 2/3 of Israel. This is why we see in Revelation 12 that the dragon is doing all this even though we know the antichrist is, because the beast is the dragon's tool to implement Lucifer's plans.

So if there's 1290 days from the AoD and that also starts the beast's reign, then 1260 days later, Christ returns in glory, because that's when the beast is thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 19:20 Since Israel's protected from him for the same time (or about the same time), yet the dragon still gets 2/3 of them, that too is offset as the chart above shows. This means the "short time" that Lucifer has is 1260 days, the length of his rule, but it is still 1290 days to the end of the week. That's my angle from scripture anyways. You're right, it's splitting hairs so I'm not too worried about it. It really won't involve us anyway, but I do want to understand correctly.
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Postby Triton57 on Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:30 pm

Douggg wrote:That 1290 days and 1335th day definitely has some complications to it. More so than I eluded to in my point to you.

I think I have it figured out.... but really I need to make my own chart as verbally I can not make it clear enough.... :dizzy:

I look forward to seeing your research. God bless!
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Douggg on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:20 am

Triton57 wrote:
Douggg wrote:That 1290 days and 1335th day definitely has some complications to it. More so than I eluded to in my point to you.

I think I have it figured out.... but really I need to make my own chart as verbally I can not make it clear enough.... :dizzy:

I look forward to seeing your research. God bless!


I am working on the size of the picture. You can right click on the chart and "save image as", then view it in the windows picture viewer. Peace, Doug L.

Image
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Postby bchandler on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:56 am

Doug, why do you think the 2 witnesses are in the first half of the week?

My recent research has led me to believe they come in the last half.... just wondering what causes you to place them in the first.
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Postby Douggg on Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:57 am

bchandler wrote:Doug, why do you think the 2 witnesses are in the first half of the week?

My recent research has led me to believe they come in the last half.... just wondering what causes you to place them in the first.


First let me say there could be some variations to my chart. I show the Antichrist as having been killed AND resurrected before the false prophet has the world make the image of him. It could be that he is only killed sometime before day 1185, and resurrected who knows how long afterwards. So he could be resurrected maybe day 1190 or 1200, etc., we just don't know for sure.

The two witnesses are killed by the beast - it says, in Rev 11:7 - which means it is the risen antichrist (designated by the term beast) who kills them, making war against them. That's why I speculate that the plagues by the two witnesses pronounce - are part of that battle, we don't know how long that they will be in war with the antichrist.

Another reason I think that the two witnesses testify the 1260 days totally in the first half is because of the 42 months that the antichrist rules....as it says in Rev 13 who can make war with him for that 42 period...which to me seems to suggest that he has already conquered the two witnesses....which is the world doing the cheering by saying who can make war with him?

However, I will grant that the two witnesses ministry may not start until the temple is complete - which should be around day 220 (2520-2300 from Dan 8). So adding the 1260 days to the 220 would put their ministry ending 220 past the midpoint...... which I recognize is a possibility...different from what I showed.

Their ministry will either be as I have shown it or the slight overlap, because the world is in a joyful mood at their deaths, exchanging presence etc..... and the citizens of the world see the two witnesses rise.... which to me means that none of the vials nor bowl judgements have been poured out.... because the TV, electrical, and satellite infrastruction must be inplace for them to do so. Think of New Orleans before the hurricane and just after the hurricane struck.... The world will be in the before state....just at the mid-point of the seven years.

The vials and bowl judgements kick off with the first response to what the Antichrist did to two witnesses with the great earthquake that hits Jerusalem the same hour as when they will have ascended.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:49 am

Triton57 wrote:
Douggg wrote:That 1290 days and 1335th day definitely has some complications to it. More so than I eluded to in my point to you.

I think I have it figured out.... but really I need to make my own chart as verbally I can not make it clear enough.... :dizzy:

I look forward to seeing your research. God bless!


uh, this one is for brother seeker....:mrgreen:

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Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:55 am

Hi Doug,

This is going to be fun thanks, I'll be back. First glance I see 3 total inconsistencies but want to look it over good and point out all the impossibilities in your chart.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:45 am

Hi Doug,

I’ll start with the two witnesses. You show the two witnesses testifying during the first 3 ½ years and dying at the midpoint of the last 7 years. Do you realize the implications of that assumption?

Rev 11:11 And after three days and a half, a spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet. And great fear fell on those seeing them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying to them, Come up here. And they went up to Heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.
Rev 11:13 And in that hour a great earthquake occurred, and the tenth part of the city fell. And seven thousand names of men were slain in the earthquake. And the rest were frightened and gave glory to the God of Heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe passed away. Behold, the third woe comes quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever.


Notice that shortly after the two witnesses are resurrected the seventh angel sounds. This would occur just after the death of the 2 at the midpoint according to you. If the 7th trumpet blows here, the previous six trumpets have blown sometime before the death of the two witnesses. That means all of these things have already occurred on earth in the first 3 ½ years.

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were cast on the earth. And the third part of trees was burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea. And the third part of the sea became blood. And the third part of the creatures in the sea, those having souls, died; and the third part of the ships was destroyed.

And the third angel sounded, and a great star burning like a lamp fell from the heaven, and it fell on the third part of the rivers and on the fountains of waters. And the name of the star is called Wormwood, and a third part of the waters became wormwood. And many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was stricken, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars, so that the third part of them was darkened, and the day did not appear for a third part of it, and the night also. And I saw and I heard one angel flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound!

And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key of the abyss. And it opened the bottomless pit. And there arose a smoke out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace. And the sun and air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. And out of the smoke came forth locusts onto the earth. And authority was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have authority. And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months. And their torment was like a scorpion's torment when he stings a man. And in those days men will seek death and will not find it. And they will long to die, and death will flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for battle. And on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. And they had hairs like the hairs of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron. And the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. And their authority was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in Greek his name is Apollyon. The first woe is past. Behold, after these things yet come two woes.

And the sixth angel sounded his trumpet. And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, Loose the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, who were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, in order to slay the third part of men. And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two myriads of myriads. And I heard their number. And so I saw the horses in the vision, and those sitting on them, having breastplates of fire, even dusky red and brimstone. And the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions. And out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three the third part of men was killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone which issued out of their mouths. For their authority is in their mouth and in their tails. For their tails were like serpents with heads, and with them they do harm. And the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and golden, and silver, and bronze, and stone, and wooden idols (which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk). And they did not repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


All these things have occurred prior to the 7th trumpet sounding. The 7th trumpet, which is shown in scripture just after the two witnesses are resurrected, is the end Doug not the midpoint of the last 7 years. Look what happens at the 7th trumpet Doug.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever.

The kingdoms of the world have become Christ’s and He will reign forever. This is the beginning of the millennium Doug. Your timing is way out of sync.

Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.



Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:54 am

Seeker wrote:
All these things have occurred prior to the 7th trumpet sounding. The 7th trumpet, which is shown in scripture just after the two witnesses are resurrected, is the end Doug not the midpoint of the last 7 years. Look what happens at the 7th trumpet Doug.


The sounding of the trumpets are for introduction for the showing to John each part of the vision... it doesn't mean that the two witnesses begin their testimony following after the judgements of what the previous 6 trumphets introduced. The two witnesses are not going to begin their testimony after all the Judgements in chapters 8 and 9 have taken place. That would not make any sense whatsoever.

John, in Chapters 8 and 9 is shwon what those judgements will be....then he in Chapter 10, he is shown when those judgements BEGIN......which is right after the seventh trumphet which is right after the two witnesses complete their 1260 days ministry.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound *, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Then in Chapter 11, John is shown the testimony of the two witnesses, followed by the sounding of the seventh trumphet...which begins all of those judgements that John had already being shown in Chapters 8 and 9.


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:27 pm

Hi Doug,

You have the AC killed and resurrected between day 220 and 1185. You also have the stopping of the daily sacrifices at this point.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of its heads as having been slain to death, and its deadly wound was healed. And all the earth marveled after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast. And they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with it?
Rev 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things was given to it, and blasphemies. And authority was given to it to continue forty-two months.


The beast gets 42 months after his deadly wound was healed. Appears to have been slain but is healed then all the earth marveled after the beast. Then he was given authority to continue 42 months. This is the beginning of the 3 ½ years that he has power over the saints. It says it a couple verses down.

Rev 13:6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those dwelling in Heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given to it to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation.


This of course agrees with Daniel 7.

Dan 7:21 I watched, and that horn made war with the saints and overcame them
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High. And the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.


The timing of the AC being killed should be at midpoint in your scenario not before it, if you want to match scripture that is. The healing of the deadly wound begins the 3 ½ year reign of the AC not before it as shown in your diagram. Here is where scripture shows the stopping of the daily sacrifice to be at.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating abomination set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days shall occur.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.


So you need to also move the stopping of the daily sacrifice up to the same point you show 1335 days, if again you want it to be accurate to scripture. The day you label unknown is known according to scripture.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:31 pm

Hi Doug,

The sounding of the trumpets are for introduction for the showing to John each part of the vision... it doesn't mean that the two witnesses begin their testimony following after the judgements of what the previous 6 trumphets introduced. The two witnesses are not going to begin their testimony after all the Judgements in chapters 8 and 9 have taken place. That would not make any sense whatsoever.


I am saying their testimony, which was for 3 1/2 years, ends at the 7th trumpet. That means the 6 trumpets before the 7th have already taken place at this point in scripture. This can only be in the last 3 1/2 years not the first Doug.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:42 pm

Hi Doug,

So now the 7th trumpet occurs before the 1st???

Then in Chapter 11, John is shown the testimony of the two witnesses, followed by the sounding of the seventh trumphet...which begins all of those judgements that John had already being shown in Chapters 8 and 9.


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Douggg on Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:52 pm

Seeker wrote: thanks for the question...seeker.

The timing of the AC being killed should be at midpoint in your scenario not before it, if you want to match scripture that is. The healing of the deadly wound begins the 3 ½ year reign of the AC not before it as shown in your diagram. Here is where scripture shows the stopping of the daily sacrifice to be at.


I take that the 1290 days in Rev 12:11-12 pretty much fixes when the AOD is setup to be worshipped. Plus the 1335th day, must end within the 2520 days of the 7 years to complete eveything said in Daniel 9 regarding the Jews.

So taking the longer of the two, the 1335 days, I subtract that from 2520 to get day 1185 as when the AOD will be set up to be worshipped. That is pretty much in concrete.

In Rev 13:14, we know that AOD image is made AFTER the beast is healed. So the Antichrist must have been killed prior to day 1185...... how much prior is unknown. Personally I think maybe a couple of weeks... mainly because the False Prophet, in Rev 13:14, has the world make the image before it is set in the temple as the AOD. So a little time is needed for the world to make the image.

A question that is relavent to what you are asking I have addressed this morning at another discussion board..... you might want to read this....

5. How do you know the judments begin at 1260 days?

Because the two witnesses complete their ministry at the exact mid-point, when they are killed. Just prior to day 1185, the Antichrist is killed and resurrected, there will be an effort to kill the two prophets. It is during that time that the two prophets will send the plagues....stoppint the rain, etc. of Revelation 11. Those plagues are not part of the trumphet and vial judgments.

Seeker, please take a look at my chart.... I do show the AC beast ruling for the 42 months - freely, without having to war with the two witnesses, as they have ascended up to heaven.

(for you seeker) The Antichrist beast - beast is the designation in Rev 11:7 of the AC to denote that he has already ascended from the bottomless pit when he kills the two prophets, as it says making war against them.

In Revelation 13:4 the world says who is able to make war against the beast..... and just after that passage it says the beast rules for 42 months. So it appears to me that the Antichrist had just killed the two prophets right at the exact midpoint. That is at the top of my chart, seeker, that the two witnesses are killed.

Three days later the two prophets come back alive - the world which had been celebrating their death is sent into shock..... and there is a big earthquake the same hour killing 7000. That is the first installment to the judgements that God pronounces over the next three and a half years... until the world see the sign of Jesus coming in the heavens... because in Matthew 24:29 it says immediately after the tribulation of those days, the world will see the sign of the Son of Man.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:13 pm

Hi Doug,

Daniel 9:27 (New American Standard Bible)

27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of (A)abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a (B)complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 9:27 (New International Version)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Daniel 9:27 (New King James Version)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=9;

Here also is the Strong’s reference from E-sword for this verse. It means the middle of the seven.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm1396 the covenant1285 with many7227 for one259 week:7620 and in the midst2677 of the week7620 he shall cause the sacrifice2077 and the oblation4503 to cease,7673 and for5921 the overspreading3671 of abominations8251 he shall make it desolate,8074 even until5704 the consummation,3617 and that determined2782 shall be poured5413 upon5921 the desolate.8076

H2677
חצי
chêtsîy
khay-tsee'
From H2673; the half or middle: - half, middle, mid [-night], midst, part, two parts.


The AoD happens in the middle of the last 7 years. I suppose though you will find it to mean something other than the scholars of those bibles and Strong’s concordance. The AC makes war with the saints for 3 ½ years Rev 13 is clear about that so is Daniel 7. Jesus says it begins at the AoD. If it is within the last 7 years and is 3.5 years it has to be at the midpoint.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:03 pm

Hi Doug,

You have the AoD separated from the stopping of the daily sacrifice. Scripture shows the two connected each time it speaks of the subject.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


The bible consistently connects these two verses together, they happen at the same time but yet you separate them.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Seeker on Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:17 pm

Hi Doug,

Trying to figure out what you mean here. You have the AoD setup before the midpoint. But then you reference Matt 24:15 on the other side of the midpoint as when the Jews flee to the wilderness as Christians. The AoD is Matt 24:15 it can’t be at both places. You are going to have to remove one of them.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Douggg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:15 am

Seeker wrote:Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The AoD happens in the middle of the last 7 years. I suppose though you will find it to mean something other than the scholars of those bibles and Strong’s concordance. The AC makes war with the saints for 3 ½ years Rev 13 is clear about that so is Daniel 7. Jesus says it begins at the AoD. If it is within the last 7 years and is 3.5 years it has to be at the midpoint.

Peace,
Seeker


The 1185 day is at the middle, neither at the first nor at he last - not exactly at day 1260... which is what you are thinking :mrgreen: .

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Sun Jan 21, 2007 5:52 am

Hi Doug,

Daniel 9:27 (New King James Version)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


360 X 7=2520 / 2=1260

And again both events take place at the same time according to scripture. The AoD and removing of the sacrifice happen in the middle of 7. Middle of 7 is 3.5 no matter how you slice it Doug.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Postby Douggg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:00 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

Trying to figure out what you mean here. You have the AoD setup before the midpoint. But then you reference Matt 24:15 on the other side of the midpoint as when the Jews flee to the wilderness as Christians. The AoD is Matt 24:15 it can’t be at both places. You are going to have to remove one of them.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Peace,
Seeker



I made that reference of Mat 24:15 with the 1260 days that the Jews are in the literal wildness for the purpose of informing the reader of why the Jews are in that literal widerness.

The AOD is setup in the temple to be worshipped prior to the exact midpoint of day 1260... on Day 1185. Day 1185 from 1260 is 75 days. The Jews will be fleeing from Jerusalem during that 75 day time.... if they can get out. The AC may use his military to block off all exits. Some of the Jews, a lot I think, will not make it out.... because in Zechariah 14, when Jesus's foot touches down on the mount of Olives and that split occures the Jews excape from the split.... so there has to be some Jews there in Jerusalem for that to happen.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Sun Jan 21, 2007 6:52 am

Hi Doug,

The AOD is setup in the temple to be worshipped prior to the exact midpoint of day 1260


Wrong again Doug here let's read it one more time. It says there will be one week (7 years). In the middle of that week (7 years) the AoD is set-up. 7 divided by 2 equals 3.5 exactly the middle of the last 7 years just as scripture says. This is according to the word of God not the word of Doug.

Daniel 9:27 (New King James Version)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2202
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Douggg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:18 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

The AOD is setup in the temple to be worshipped prior to the exact midpoint of day 1260


Wrong again Doug here let's read it one more time. It says there will be one week (7 years). In the middle of that week (7 years) the AoD is set-up. 7 divided by 2 equals 3.5 exactly the middle of the last 7 years just as scripture says. This is according to the word of God not the word of Doug.

Daniel 9:27 (New King James Version)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Peace,
Seeker


If I were to say to you, Seeker go swim out tho the middle of the river. You would take a tape measure with you?

On the other hand, if I knew the river was 200 ft wide and I said to you, Seeker go swim out into the river 100 ft offshore. Then that would be an exact requirement.

Likewise, that the AC stops the sacrifce and offering in the midst of the week is not the exact 1260th day middle, but the middle portion of the week..... as it turns out due to the 1290 days and 1335th days factor.

Daniel 12:11-12, says the 1290 days and 1335th day are from the time the AOD is setup to be worshipped. We can't get around thsoe timeframes as being requirements.

In Daniel 9:24, Gabriel said the 70 weeks are determined upon the Jews to complete all these things.

9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

So those 1290 days and 1335th day in Daniel 12:11-12 have to all be ended by the end of the 70th week. All timeframes of events relating to the AC and the AOD must be ended by the end of the 70th week.

Therefore, by subtracting from 2520 days length of the 70th week, the 1335th day, it is fixed in concrete that the AOD will occure at day 1185. Which is in the midst of the week. It doesnt say in Daneil 9:26-27 at the exact 1260 day mid-point.

However, in preparing a timeline chart of events, we do have some events that are timed to the exact day... like the ministry of the two witnesses, and the time Israel is in a spiritual wilderness.... those timefraems are given in the bible as being exactly 1260 days in length. Those events we have to treat with the exactness, of being to the exact day, in preparing the timeline. That's what I did on that chart.



Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:59 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

You have the AoD separated from the stopping of the daily sacrifice. Scripture shows the two connected each time it speaks of the subject.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


The bible consistently connects these two verses together, they happen at the same time but yet you separate them.

Peace,
Seeker


They do happen in relation to each other, agreed. First the taking away of the sacrifice and the setting up of the AOD.

We are talking about prophetic events, seeker.... not actions fitted togetherr like catching a grounder and firing the ball to first base like in baseball... as a matter of micro-seconds.

On my chart I have the Antichrist being killed and resurrected, marked as a vertical line - the Antichrist will be mortally wounded and recovered from that wound.... we don't know how long he is dead. I showed that two actions as one event by that vertical line.... also the stopping of the sacrifices with that same vertical line, becasue he stops the sacrifices according to Dan 12:11 before the AOD is setup to be worshipped.

In reality, when those three things happen i.e, the kiling of the AC, his resurrection, and him stopping the sacrifices.... those might happen spread out over a couple of days, or weeks....we don't know. I represented them as happening by a vertical line....because of the limitations in keeping the chart comprehendable.

A timeline prepared on a 2ft by 3ft piece of paper, naturally, could go into a lot more detail than I did. But the important key elements, I think that chart is pretty much right.... of sufficient detail, but still simple enough that you and I can discuss those key elements. I have seen some super "busy " charts, that to me, are discouraging to look it because of the effort required to comprehend them.

Getting back to your question, when the AC is killed and resurrected... the false prophet has the world make the AOD statue image of the Antichrist.
In Revelation 13:

13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Because of history, and that Antiochus IV Epiphanes, has already committed the type of act called the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31.... we can know for certain that image of Revelation 13:14 will be a statue.

It is going to take some time for those participating to make that statue. How long? We don't know. If you look at my chart, you will see some spacing of time that accounts for the making of the statue. Then on day 1185, it will be set in place. The spacing on the chart for the stopping of the sacrifices and the setting up of the AOD is NOT TO SCALE which may have given you the impression that I am making the two events, of stopping the sacrifice and setting up of the AOD as being separated by a huge amount of time. But that is not the case, I think that the AOD will be made in a few weeks from when the AC is killed. Please take another look at that chart. We don't know the day when the AC will be killed...."day unknown" on the chart.

The stopping of the sacrifice and the setting up of the statue do happen together, Seeker.... I have shown that..... but it is not the same micro-second togetherness like the fielding of the grounder and firing the ball to first base in baseball.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:00 pm

Hi Doug,

The bible is actually quite precise.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


I knew you would find a way to argue with the opinion of several hundred scholars as well as the bible itself. Your unknown day is unknown in the bible. The AC has power only for 3 ½ years. You extend his time further than that. Anyway Doug it does no good to show you what the bible says you just make it up as you go anyway. Believe what you want but if it is what you are posting it doesn’t match the bible.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Triton57 on Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:09 pm

Seeker wrote:Daniel 9:27 (New American Standard Bible)

27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of (A)abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a (B)complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 9:27 (New International Version)

27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Daniel 9:27 (New King James Version)

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”


Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=daniel%209:27;&version=9;

Here also is the Strong’s reference from E-sword for this verse. It means the middle of the seven.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm1396 the covenant1285 with many7227 for one259 week:7620 and in the midst2677 of the week7620 he shall cause the sacrifice2077 and the oblation4503 to cease,7673 and for5921 the overspreading3671 of abominations8251 he shall make it desolate,8074 even until5704 the consummation,3617 and that determined2782 shall be poured5413 upon5921 the desolate.8076

H2677
חצי
chêtsîy
khay-tsee'
From H2673; the half or middle: - half, middle, mid [-night], midst, part, two parts.


The AoD happens in the middle of the last 7 years. I suppose though you will find it to mean something other than the scholars of those bibles and Strong’s concordance. The AC makes war with the saints for 3 ½ years Rev 13 is clear about that so is Daniel 7. Jesus says it begins at the AoD. If it is within the last 7 years and is 3.5 years it has to be at the midpoint.

    H2677
    חצי
    chêtsîy
    khay-tsee'
    From H2673; the half or middle: - half, middle, mid [-night], midst, part, two parts.
Putting this possibility of it occuring in the midst of two parts along with Daniel 12:11 leads me to believe it isn't exactly at the 1260 day mark. This is in context of the 70th week. Daniel 12:1 starts at the time of Jacob's trouble. In this beginning context, verse 7 then answers the question of how long it will be to the end of these wonders. The time of 3 1/2 years is given to scatter the power of the holy people. From the Abomination of desolation, this is the same time given in Revelation 13:5 for power given to the beast. We know that ends in Revelation 19:20 when Christ returns in glory and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire.

But Daniel still doesn't understand and he's told...
    Daniel 12:11
    And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
If there's 1290 days from the AoD and there's also 1260 days from the AoD, then there has to be 30 days after Christ's return before the 70th week is over.
Image

There's also some other interesting mirrors in prophetic timelines that I'm looking into for those interested.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby DailyStruggle on Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:51 pm

Folks, I am new here so please be gentle and no offense to anyone but I don't think the ENP is the covenant. I think this recent push for peace from Solana is going to be it and I think it will happen this year. Is'nt the whole world supposed to be dancing in the streets because there will finally be peace in the middle east. And won't this propel the AC on to the world stage as a great man/hero. And it is supposed to be the covenant with death and hell. I just don't see this with an economic tool like the ENP. Now I do think the ENP will strengthen and give more power to the AC but when the covenant comes the whole world will know it and the AC will be a star, to the unsaved world.
DailyStruggle
 

Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:11 pm

Brother Triton, :mrgreen:
    Daniel 12:11
    And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
If there's 1290 days from the AoD and there's also 1260 days from the AoD, then there has to be 30 days after Christ's return before the 70th week is over.
Image

:butbutbut: there is no 1260 days from the AOD, that is an erroneous conclusion by thinking that the midst of the week wording in Daniel 9:27 means precisely day 1260 and not the middle part of the week.

Triton, why aren't you willing to go the 1335 days to when the AOD is setup to be worship until the day that Jesus returns? Everything fits within the seventy weeks then.....just like it says to complete all those thing listed in Daniel 9:24. Peace, Doug L.

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Postby OBXBob on Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:11 pm

Hi DailyStruggle,

Thanks for the post.

Do you have the scriptures you can point to for the events that you're referencing?

Thanks!

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby Triton57 on Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:08 am

Douggg wrote:Brother Triton, :mrgreen:
    Daniel 12:11
    And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
If there's 1290 days from the AoD and there's also 1260 days from the AoD, then there has to be 30 days after Christ's return before the 70th week is over.
Image

:butbutbut: there is no 1260 days from the AOD, that is an erroneous conclusion by thinking that the midst of the week wording in Daniel 9:27 means precisely day 1260 and not the middle part of the week.

That 1260 days is the time the dragon gives the beast his power. Revelation 13:5 It starts at the abomination of desolation. Matthew 24:15-22 That's when the dragon goes after Israel, the woman of Revelation 12. Christ connected that time to the abomination of desolation for us. So if we know he goes after Israel at the abomination of desolation, then that also starts the time of Jacob's trouble, which is the first part of the great tribulation. The focus shifts later to the remnant of Israel and Christians worldwide once Israel is protected.

To be clear, I don't believe the abomination of desolation is exactly 1260 days in the middle. I believe Daniel 12:11 speaks directly against it, which brings me to the second part of your question.

Douggg wrote:Triton, why aren't you willing to go the 1335 days to when the AOD is setup to be worship until the day that Jesus returns? Everything fits within the seventy weeks then.....just like it says to complete all those thing listed in Daniel 9:24.

My main reason is that Daniel doesn't say from the abomination of desolation will be 1335 days.
    Daniel 12:11,12
    And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Verse 11 just strikes me as a statement by itself with an add-on time of 45 extra days. I went into what event I believe that marks before.
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:14 am

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In regards to your chart, I don't view the AoD as being separate from the start of the great tribulation based on Matthew 24:15-22. Also, the two witnesses don't stop the antichrist from going after Israel as Christ points out in those verses. That's why those in Judea are told to run to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation.
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How do you know Day 220 is the resumption of the animal sacrifices? I'm guessing the 2300 days from
    Daniel 8:13,14
    Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
When will the sanctuary be cleansed? I used to hold that it would be upon Christ's return and that's still a possibility. I just don't feel I have definitive enough information to say that the 2300 days ends when Christ sets foot on the mount of Olives. The millennial temple described in Ezekiel 40-47 is much bigger and has an outer court. This also leads me to believe the temple that's cleansed may be the new one, among some other reasons gone over in the link, but I just don't know. In other words, when the daily sacrifice starts, then I'll know how long after the temple will be cleansed.
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I disagree with the placement of the seals based on the fact that all seven seals are opened before the seven trumpets are even handed out. Revelation 8:1,2 This means all seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls would be poured out immediately before Christ's return.
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As far as the two witnesses go, I believe they actually come such that their testimony is split partially to the Jews at first, then they survive the abomination of desolation and then bring the plagues, etc while the antichrist controls Jerusalem (tread under foot by the Gentiles).
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Phillip
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Postby Douggg on Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:33 pm

Triton57 wrote:
In regards to your chart, I don't view the AoD as being separate from the start of the great tribulation based on Matthew 24:15-22. Also, the two witnesses don't stop the antichrist from going after Israel as Christ points out in those verses. That's why those in Judea are told to run to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation.


The judgments of the trumphets and bowls are poured out because the Anitchrist has gone into the temple declared himself to be god...and the AOD setup to be worshipped.... those have to just precede the great tribulation, which they do on tha chart.

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How do you know Day 220 is the resumption of the animal sacrifices? I'm guessing the 2300 days from
    Daniel 8:13,14
    Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
When will the sanctuary be cleansed? I used to hold that it would be upon Christ's return and that's still a possibility. I just don't feel I have definitive enough information to say that the 2300 days ends when Christ sets foot on the mount of Olives. The millennial temple described in Ezekiel 40-47 is much bigger and has an outer court. This also leads me to believe the temple that's cleansed may be the new one, among some other reasons gone over in the link, but I just don't know. In other words, when the daily sacrifice starts, then I'll know how long after the temple will be cleansed.


The temple is cleansed when the defilers are removed....that is, the Antichirst and the AOD.... both will be removed the day that Jesus returns.
The millenial temple is a different issue.

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I disagree with the placement of the seals based on the fact that all seven seals are opened before the seven trumpets are even handed out. Revelation 8:1,2 This means all seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls would be poured out immediately before Christ's return.


Seal 1 is about the arrival of the Antichrist. Seals 2 through 4 are the results of the trumphets and bowl judgments..... as food and energy resources globally are steadily depleted. Seal 5 is a picture of the martyred saints in heaven. Seal 6 is tied directly to Matthew 24:29-31.
I added the four horsemen and seals to that chart.
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As far as the two witnesses go, I believe they actually come such that their testimony is split partially to the Jews at first, then they survive the abomination of desolation and then bring the plagues, etc while the antichrist controls Jerusalem (tread under foot by the Gentiles).


The gospel message back in Jesus's day was sent to the Jew first. Then to the gentiles for the past 2000 years. The age of the gentiles ends when the 70th week begins. The two witnesses are in Jerusalem, for the first 1260 days, because that's where the Jews are.... then the Jew flee to the mountains for the second 1260 days. The two witnesses battle against the Antichrist and his followers, for 75 days before they are killed... sending plagues as necessary, and destroying those who try to kill them before their time is up....it is during that 75 days the Jews will become Christians, as well as, a mass exodus fleeing Jerusalem. The actions of the two witnesses will make their fleeing possible.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:17 am

Seeker wrote:Hi Doug,

So now the 7th trumpet occurs before the 1st???

Peace,
Seeker



You make a good point..... :a2: I recant my previous comment.... regarding the seventh trumphet. :mrgreen:

It doesn't change the yellow chart, but please read my explanation of the seals and trumphets....

The Seals are seals on a book of the end-times.

When you and I read a book, we read words in the book.

The book that Jesus had, each seal opened - a vision - that all in heaven saw, including John, who btw was interactive.....like in Chapter 11 when John was told to measure the dimensions of the temple.

The seventh seal opened a vision - to the rest of what John saw in Revelation. It doesn't mean that the events in the vision opened by the seventh seal are a continuation of the events in the vision opened by the sixth seal.

Seals 1-6 collectively cover the entire 70th week.

Seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 open visions of events that happen on earth in sequential pattern. Seal 5 opened a vision of events in heaven.

Likewise, Seal 7 opens a vision of events in heaven - it is not in the sequential pattern of the visions of Seal 1,2,3,4,6.

In heaven, John, the 24 elders, the living beasts, and the angels, see the visions that each of the seven trumphets introduce....

The first trumphet begins just after day 1260. The first trumphet judgement, a third of the trees are burnt up and all of the green grass. That will impact food supplies...

The second trumphet, a third of the sea turns to blood...a third of the fish die... more impact to food supplies. A third of the ships are destroyed... impacting critical trade supplies....including food..... and oil tankers....so energy supplies are cutoff in many nations.

The third trumphet, makes a third part of water undrinkable. So food, water, energy globally....not to mention everything else traveling by ships has been impacted so far.

As a result, people will be dying left and right, and lawlessness will break out in many nations. The stress will cause nations to start wars with each other over the dwindling food, water and energy resources. That is symbolized by the visions of the rider on the red horse. And probably around that time, Satan and the Antichrist will introduce the 666, buy or sell requirement of worldwide marshall law....IMHO.

The fourth trumphet throws the world into darkness....rape, pillage, murder, and stealing will take place in the darkness.

The black horse rides, as the food, water, and energy, become supercritical.....not much to eat on earth.

The pale horse rides, the food, water, and energy run out, with all of the green grass burn up, the plains animals in the animal kingdom die off.... the predators turn to attacking men...."the beast of the field" killing in Rev 6:8.
A big portion of the earth's population is dead. Personally, and this is speculation, I don't think many of the animals will make it through the great tribulation.

As those in heaven watch the visions of the trumphets unfold...they say WOE WOE WOE (three woes) there are still three trumphets left.

WOE 1, The fifth trumphet unleashes the flesh eating locust....for five months.

WOE 2, The sixth angel sounds, and four angels (demons) are unleashed from the Euphates river...

At this point, IMHO, the nations of the South, North, and East have become disenchanted that the Antichrist is god...
and since he is controlling all of the buying and selling of food as well as energy supplies.... probably hogging those for his ten kingdom western confederacy of the European nations.... the King of the South, the African nations attack him. Then the King of the north, encouraged by the King of the South....attacks him also.

Then the kings of the East, their 200,000,000 men army, march to the Eurphrates....which is dried up... killing on their way..... marching through Pakistan, India, Afaghanistan....and battle the Antichrist A third of mankind is killed by them.

That ends Revelation 9, with the sixth trumphet, the second woe, WOE 2.

In Revelation 10 -11, the visions of the trumphets stop, for an interlude as in Rev 10:1 John sees another angel....who gives him a book to eat. He then is shown the testimony of the two witnesses in Revelation 11.

Then after seeing the vision of the two witnesses, in Revelation 11:14 the woes pick up again from the second woe which was back in Revelation 9:13, the sixth trumphet.

Revelation 11:14 calls attention to that fact... that woe 2 is where the visons of the trumphets left off and the time of the third woe of the seventh trumphet has arrived.

Keep in mind that WOE 2 was the kings of the east marching to attack the Antichrist, which is part of the battle of Daniel 11:40-45 as placing the timing on the chart. Then the seventh trumphet makes sense, because what stops those nations from battling the Antichrist is the appearing of the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens. Jesus is coming with wrath upon those nations. And to bring the kingdom of God to this world.

11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.....
.......

11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


WOE 3....The seventh trumphet, above, sounds ending the trumphet judgments - when the world sees the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven - coming back to this earth bring wrath upon the nations and the 666ers in particular....dovetails with the sixth seal back in Revelation 6:12-17. See the yellow chart of the ending of the trumphets.

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Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby bchandler on Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:41 am

I've often wondered when the ministry of the two witnesses would start... but I have never been able to nail down in scripture anything that gave me a good anchor point for it.

I am interested to know how you both have reached your conclusions for the timing of the start or end of this event.

In my personal studies I had begun to think that their rapture and the church's rapture might coincide... but again I just can't seem to nail this down.

Looking forward to your replies...
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Postby Douggg on Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:52 pm

Hi bchandler, :mrgreen:

bchandler wrote:I've often wondered when the ministry of the two witnesses would start... but I have never been able to nail down in scripture anything that gave me a good anchor point for it.

I am interested to know how you both have reached your conclusions for the timing of the start or end of this event.

In my personal studies I had begun to think that their rapture and the church's rapture might coincide... but again I just can't seem to nail this down.

Looking forward to your replies...


John is told to measure the temple and is informed that the outer court in the hands of the nations. Which means that the inner court is in the hands of the Jews. Which means the two witnesses begin their ministry with the Jews having control of the inner court.....i.e. at the beginning of the 7 years.

On the end side, the world celebrates the deaths of the two witnesses by exchanging presents..... which means that the world at that particular time hasn't entered the time of the walking dead, emacicated condition of men being scorched, eaten on by flesh eating locust, starvation etc.... of the trumphet and bowel judgements.

The world also sees the two witnesses rise up to heaven.... that means the satillite system, television, and electrical infrastructure is intact.... another indication that none of the trumphet nor bowel judgments have taken place.

There is a problem of the timing of the killing of the two witnesses by the beast - which means that designated as the beast - the Antichrist must have gone through the mortally wounded, ascended from the bottomless phase.... but that is not a problem, when the timing of when the AOD is setup to be worshipped 1335 days before day 2520, the end of the 70th week when Jesus returns...... because before the false prophet has the world make the image... the Antichrist must have been mortally wounded and recoverd... see the yellow chart.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon........13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


So the requirement that the Antichrist must have reached the beast stage when he kills the two prophets - is possible considering that he is killed and recovers....prior to day 1185.

During that time that the world is making the image, and set in the temple till the exact 1260 mid-point is 75 days (1260-1185). The two prophets will be battling with the beast during that time, issuing plagues as necessary to allow for the Jews to escape from Jerusalem. They also burn up anyone trying to kill them. Finally at the midpoint, their time of testimony is ended and the beast makes war on them and they are killed.

Just after they are killed, the world cheers who can make war against the beast? Which is another indication that they two prophets are killed at the exact 1260 day midpoint. That leaves the 42 months that the beast can rule without the interference of the two prophets.

For all of those reasons.... I would place the 1260 day testimony time of the two prophets in the first half of the 7 years. I personally believe that the Antichrist will arrive in Israel, right after Gog/Magog.... and the two witnesses will also come on the scene warning the Jews...not to fall in love with the guy as their messiah. But they won't listen and will embrace him as he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant as a matter of deception.

Peace,

Doug L.

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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:38 am

Douggg wrote:
Triton57 wrote:I disagree with the placement of the seals based on the fact that all seven seals are opened before the seven trumpets are even handed out. Revelation 8:1,2 This means all seven trumpets, seven thunders, and seven bowls would be poured out immediately before Christ's return.


Seal 1 is about the arrival of the Antichrist. Seals 2 through 4 are the results of the trumphets and bowl judgments..... as food and energy resources globally are steadily depleted. Seal 5 is a picture of the martyred saints in heaven. Seal 6 is tied directly to Matthew 24:29-31.
I added the four horsemen and seals to that chart.
Image


I think everyone needs to look closer at Matthew 24:29-31. Define "powers of heaven shaken" according to scripture.
    Isaiah 13:10-13
    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
So according to Matthew 24:29-31, it goes in this order:
  1. End of the time of Jacob's trouble
  2. 6th seal (sun darkened, moon doesn't give light, stars fall from heaven)
  3. Powers of heaven shaken = God's wrath = beginning of the day of the Lord (God's wrath is poured out over a period of time that starts after the 144,000 are sealed after the sixth seal, Revelation 7, and after the bride is caught up, pre-wrath. This time of His wrath must end before He returns in glory.) This comes out to about 1230 days or so for the time of "the powers of heaven shaken."
  4. THEN Christ returns in and the world sees Him coming in great power and glory. (Elect are gathered from one end of heaven to the other)
    Matthew 24:29-31
    1) Immediately after the tribulation of those days
    2) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
    3) and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    4) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:54 am

Douggg wrote:
Triton57 wrote:As far as the two witnesses go, I believe they actually come such that their testimony is split partially to the Jews at first, then they survive the abomination of desolation and then bring the plagues, etc while the antichrist controls Jerusalem (tread under foot by the Gentiles).


The gospel message back in Jesus's day was sent to the Jew first. Then to the gentiles for the past 2000 years. The age of the gentiles ends when the 70th week begins.

Scripture? It seems to me that the transition of the end of the Gentile age would be the fullness of the Gentiles. This is also the point when Israel is unblinded.
    Romans 11:25
    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The Jews as a group cannot see the truth because they're blinded to it. Individual Jews have found the truth, but Israel as a people are in blindness UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles. I believe that is the rapture. I think that also explains how we provoke the Jews to jealousy too because we are with God while they're being refined through the fire. Right now they certainly aren't jealous of Christians, but when they realize God took the Christians, I think that will, along with being unblinded, bring them to the realization that Yeshua is the Meshiach Nagid they've been waiting for.

Douggg wrote:The two witnesses are in Jerusalem, for the first 1260 days, because that's where the Jews are.... then the Jew flee to the mountains for the second 1260 days. The two witnesses battle against the Antichrist and his followers, for 75 days before they are killed... sending plagues as necessary, and destroying those who try to kill them before their time is up....it is during that 75 days the Jews will become Christians, as well as, a mass exodus fleeing Jerusalem. The actions of the two witnesses will make their fleeing possible.

What strikes me is that the two witnesses are killed by the beast from the bottomless pit. Lucifer didn't come from there, he was cast out of heaven. The antichrist is a man given power by the dragon. So I don't think they have anything to do with the two witnesses deaths. The Bible says the beast from the bottomless pit kills them and the one I remember explicitly being released from the bottomless pit is Apollyon at the fifth trumpet with his demon locusts. If that is indeed who kills the two witnesses, then they have to be living during the last part of the 70th week.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby bchandler on Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:17 am

Interesting...
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:35 pm

Hi Phillip,

I think the below passages do identify the A/C as being possessed by a demon that comes from the bottomless pit...the same to kill the two witnesses earlier in Revelation...

Revelation 17:

8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby BeTheMoon on Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:59 pm

I don't think the AC will be possessed by a demon. I think it will be by Satan himself.

"Son of perdition" is used twice to describe Judas and the AC (Jn17:12, 2Thes2:3), and we know Satan entered Judas (Lu22:3); IMO we can conclude that Satan will enter the AC.

Lucifer tried to defeat our Father.
Lucifer tried to defeat Jesus on earth.
Lucifer tries to defeat you and me everyday.
Lucifer will try to defeat Jesus again.

He fails and accomplishes the will of our Father in heaven.
What a mighty God we serve!
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:03 pm

OBXBob wrote:Hi Phillip,

I think the below passages do identify the A/C as being possessed by a demon that comes from the bottomless pit...the same to kill the two witnesses earlier in Revelation...

Revelation 17:

8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Thanks Bob, I didn't take that one into account.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:44 pm

Hi BTM,

You could be right.

I've always thought the "Son of Perdition" seemed to show a separate identity, hence the word 'Son'. We also know that the A/C and F.P. are the first two inhabitants of the Lake of Fire, with Satan going back to the Abyss for 1,000 years, and then he joins his two buddies in the Lake of Fire after that.

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:52 pm

Hi BTM,

Revelation 17:

It would appear that the bolded text would not apply to Satan.

8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


YBIC,

Bob
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Postby Seeker on Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:43 pm

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


They appear to be separate entities before and after the deadly wound for what it's worth.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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