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Jesus clearly states His return is after the tribulation of those days. Forcing another return prior to the tribulation is contrary to Jesus' own words. Period.

- Jeff

dshemjo wrote:

Exactly. But of course they will just say the rapture is not "His return" or at least that the rapture doesn't happen at the return described in Matthew 24 which I think is ludicrous because if the rapture Paul spoke of is something other than the "gathering of the elect" that Jesus spoke of, why did Jesus say nothing of it? Because He was speaking to the disciples as representatives of unsaved Israel? Balogna! They're saved! Disciples just as we are! We can take Matthew 24 just as if he was speaking to us, and it serves as a perfect backbone/outline of endtimes that dovetails perfectly with Revelation 6 and all the other passeges fit. I have carefully considered objections from people like mark s, about red moon vs. dark moon, how does the sheep and goats judgement fit, etc, but I have found them to be mostly immaterial. I have seen nothing adequate to disproove this plain sense reading of the passages.

Agree, Jeff and dshemjo.

Matt 24

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Can't get much clearer than Jesus own words.....and all of the other writers in the Bible also know the timing and I see no other verses that would conflict with this timing. After the tribulation Jesus will gather those to Him and then sudden destruction from God Almighty will come upon the world quickly. People will be SAYING peace and safety until Jesus comes back, because the only time it will really BE peace and safety is when He rules from earth.

I think no one will disagree that there will only true peace when Jesus rules.

But scriptures talks about a time that people will be going about their normal business - buying, selling, building, marrying, etc. before a time of destruction. Compare this with a time when people are saying Peace and Safety before a time of destruction. We have to then find a time when this scenerio makes best sense other than the time of true peace when Jesus reigns, which happens after the time of destruction.

Blessings,
KA

Which is in the same chapter that explains when the "one" time of coming of the Son of Man/gathering of the elect is and the timing of that coming and gathering.

Matt 24

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

When is that coming of the Son of Man? AFTER the tribulation of those days. So if it says they will be doing all these things up until the coming of the Son of Man which is AFTER the tribulation, I believe it, then sudden destruction will come upon the world after the gathering after the tribulation of those days.

Matt 24

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 16

15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

The timing is perfectly laid out and clear.

Keeping Alert wrote:But scriptures talks about a time that people will be going about their normal business - buying, selling, building, marrying, etc. before a time of destruction. Compare this with a time when people are saying Peace and Safety before a time of destruction. We have to then find a time when this scenerio makes best sense other than the time of true peace when Jesus reigns, which happens after the time of destruction.

KA, people will be buying and selling even when the AC is in control, and they may think that he has given them peace and safety, but it will be a false hope, because the wrath of God will come upon them suddenly.

And I think the blood, fire and pillars of smoke you pointed out earlier refer to the 2 witnesses. That is why people will flock to the AC, because he will promise to give them peace and safety from the 2 witnesses who will be smiting the earth with plagues and causing droughts.

It seems realistic to me that the world could be going through a time of trouble, but still have hope for peace and safety, even if it is a false one. That is the strong delusion, that the AC is God and is going to solve all of the world's problems.

EC, that is not what the bible says.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days shall be shortened, there shall NO FLESH be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

There is no peace and safety during the great tribulation for ALL FLESH.

Jhn 10:10 NASB - "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have {it} abundantly.

While Revelation makes it clear to me that Satan's onslaught during the time of great tribulation will be mainly against Israel and those who hold to the testamony of Jesus Christ, Satans ultimate goal since creation has been to wipe out mankind completely, right? So, I suppose that might be what Jesus is saying when he says "no flesh"--that if the reign of Satan/antichrist/false prophet was not cut short, they would eventually, when they were done with Jews and Christians, proceed with total annialation of the human race.

Keeping Alert wrote:EC, that is not what the bible says.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days shall be shortened, there shall NO FLESH be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

There is no peace and safety during the great tribulation for ALL FLESH.

Are you saying people won't be buying and selling during the GT? There is going to be a computerized one world monetary system put in place by the anti-christ, which means that people will have to have scanners, electricity and Internet in order to buy, just like today, even during the GT. If people are buying and selling, that means they would still be able to have hope for the future under the AC's plans, which means hope for PEACE AND SAFETY.

The Bible doesn't say they are going to have real peace and safety, it says that people will say "PEACE AND SAFETY". The AC is coming to bring a strong delusion of..... PEACE to those who will worship him.

Keeping Alert wrote:EC, that is not what the bible says.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days shall be shortened, there shall NO FLESH be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

There is no peace and safety during the great tribulation for ALL FLESH.

KA, that's not what it says. IF the days weren't shortened, THEN no flesh would be saved and therefore your argument that there would be no peace & safety for any would be valid. But since the length of the GT are shortened by the return of Christ, it is not a logical necessity that there be no peace and safety for everyone.

tharkun

Keeping Alert-

Who is being killed during the great tribulation? It is not unbelievers. The persecution is against the name of Christ. Unbelievers will be quite safe since they will be the ones doing the killing. It is only when Christ shows up after the great tribulation that the nations in general mourn.

And since II Thess. has already been mentioned here because of the reference to the Day of the LORD, I point out that it states the same thing. Chapter 1 shows tribulation and persecution for the church, but when Christ shows up, then vengeance on behalf of the church will be issued by Jesus and the holy angels. But until that time of vengeance, it is persecution as usual for the church.

So let's look at Thessalonica. While they were being persecuted, were the unbelievers in that city safe? Check it out in Acts 17.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Hi OM,

I can understand the possibility if it was just between 2 parties fighting each other. But there are plaques from God, which are going to fall on everyone...

Blessings,
KA

Well, there's the birth pains, but it seems to me that the real "plagues" from God, the trumpets and bowls, come after the 144K are sealed and the great multitude is clothed in white before the throne. Which makes sense:

1Th 5:9 NIV - For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Orange Mailman wrote:Keeping Alert-

Who is being killed during the great tribulation? It is not unbelievers. The persecution is against the name of Christ. Unbelievers will be quite safe since they will be the ones doing the killing.

Hi OM,

How is that so? Jesus said that unless those days were cut short, no flesh would survive. That doesn't sound to me as though anyone were safe.

Love in Christ,
Mark

1 Thessalonians 5

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The "they" that are saying "peace and safety", sudden destruction comes upon "them" and they will not escape.

Jesus gathers the elect and then sudden destruction comes upon "them" and they will not escape His wrath, which I don't believe to last 7 years long. I believe that day of the Lord/wrath comes near the end of the 7 years, as previously stated in passages given, Matt 24, Rev 6 and 16, etc. Of course, others believe differently on the timing.

In time, all things will come to pass and be made perfectly clear.

mark s wrote:

The Orange Mailman wrote:Keeping Alert-

Who is being killed during the great tribulation? It is not unbelievers. The persecution is against the name of Christ. Unbelievers will be quite safe since they will be the ones doing the killing.

Hi OM,

How is that so? Jesus said that unless those days were cut short, no flesh would survive. That doesn't sound to me as though anyone were safe.

Love in Christ,
Mark

"No flesh" is conditional on the statement IF the days were not shortened. The GT is against those who follow Christ; but IF the days of the GT were not pre-ordained to be shortened, THEN no one would be safe, as you said. But we know that this will not happen because Christ will in fact come back, cutting the GT short. Therefore, OM's answer is correct, only followers of Christ will be in danger.

tharkun

. . . so then, "those days" present danger to all flesh, that is why they need to be cut short. ??

Of course, if you are limiting the scope of "the great tribulation" to "the persecution of God's people", then I can see where this would present a difficulty.

But if you do not limit the great tribulation to that persecution, then it can be a threat to all humanity.

Tribulation, as it is used in Scripture, can include persecution, but is not limited to persecution.

Are you thinking that the great tribulation does not threaten unbelievers, but at some moment that would change, however, Jesus cuts it short before that moment comes?

I think that Scripture shows many people dying in those days, not just believers.

Love in Christ,
Mark

So, now only Christians will be prosecuted during the Tribulation?

Hi OM,

How is that so? Jesus said that unless those days were cut short, no flesh would survive. That doesn't sound to me as though anyone were safe.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark-

Jesus was speaking in context of the elect. Previous in the passage, He spoke of persecution against His disciples "for My name's sake". Now He speaks of great persecution against the elect. If the days were not shortened, no flesh, as in no believers, would survive. That's how intense the great tribulation against Christians will be.

Survival will be simple. Don't be a Christian.

Hi OM,

I can understand the possibility if it was just between 2 parties fighting each other. But there are plaques from God, which are going to fall on everyone...

Blessings,
KA

Hello Keeping Alert-

The plagues from God do not occur until after the cosmic signs of the sun, moon, and stars going dark. So in the timeline of the Olivet Discourse, the nations mourn at the cosmic signs when they see Jesus coming in power and great glory. It's as if they know the wrath is about to fall. Matthew 24:29 puts the event "after the great tribulation". So we have the great tribulation, then the cosmic signs, then the wrath of God after that.

Since the sixth seal shows the Day of His Wrath as arriving, it should be obvious that the Day of His Wrath begins sometime after the sixth seal. The plagues which fall on everyone during the trumpets and bowls do not happen during the great tribulation, but during the Day of the LORD. Which I'm a firm believer that the rapture occurs before the Day of the LORD, but not before the great tribulation.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

I have a question, thats really confusing givin the view point of the poster above.

If the day of wrath consists of the Trumpets and Bowls, following the 3.5year tribulation, then how long is this "day" of wrath gonna last?

Thats 14 judgements. And one of them, the locust horde is supposed to last for a 5 month period...

Also one of the very last bowls involves the euphrates river drying up to make way for the armies from the east. Can they really march to Megiddo if Gods wrath is falling upon them?

Not trying disprove anyone or make a point, just want to see how things like this fit in with the way you see things playing out.

The Orange Mailman wrote: . . . no flesh, as in no believers, . . .

OK, OM, I see what you are doing here. You are interpreting this as a metanymy, and defining "all flesh" as a sub-group of a literal "all flesh", that is, believers.

Love in Christ,
Mark

no flesh, as in no believers

Perhaps, but I don't think we even have make that argument because, like tharkun said:

"No flesh" is conditional on the statement IF the days were not shortened. The GT is against those who follow Christ; but IF the days of the GT were not pre-ordained to be shortened, THEN no one would be safe, as you said. But we know that this will not happen because Christ will in fact come back, cutting the GT short. Therefore, OM's answer is correct, only followers of Christ will be in danger.

Personally I think if those days were not shortened, Satan would wipe out all believers, then wipe out the rest of humanity. But these days will be cut short before he even finishes with the believers--so the unbelievers won't even be threatened by Satan and the antichrist. They (the Christ rejectors)will be saying "peace and safety" believeing that is what the AC will bring them, namely deliverance from the two witnesses, and though the AC will temporarily give them relief from the witnesses, destruction will come on the suddenly: the Day of the Lord--which is a period of time not just a single 24 hour day.

I still think that there will be untold millions of unbelievers dying during these last 7 years. I think the environment will be ruined, the plagues will be intense, the earth filled with violence, pestilence, war, and famine, and everyone would die if Jesus didn't come to rescue His own.

Tribulation, as it is used in Scripture, is not solely persecution. It includes persecution. Tribulation is the crushing pressure brought through adverse people and circumstances. Jesus, for instance, in the parable of the sower, speaks of "tribulation or persecution", making a clear distinction between these two.

Tribulation should not be understood to be limited to persecution. It encompasses much more than that, and there will be much more than persecution of God's people threatening the safety of humanity in those days.

Love in Christ,
Mark

mark s wrote:I still think that there will be untold millions of unbelievers dying during these last 7 years. I think the environment will be ruined, the plagues will be intense, the earth filled with violence, pestilence, war, and famine, and everyone would die if Jesus didn't come to rescue His own.

Hi Mark,

Would it be fair to say, you think this because you also believe the trumpets/seals begin early in the 70th week? Aren't these hardships you listed alluding to the trumpets and seals of the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of in Mat 24? If so, then it could also be reasoned that these things would not start occurring until after the AoD if one believed the trumpets/seals are not opened until later in the 70th week.

On the other hand, if what you mentioned above is only general references to violence, famine, war, etc., then I would agree they may happen during the first half of the 70th week... as even now they are happening with increased momentum in the world today. But only these are birth pangs what we are seeing now. It will surely get much worse, as scripture describes, after the AoD.

Blessings,
SBG

If the day of wrath consists of the Trumpets and Bowls, following the 3.5year tribulation, then how long is this "day" of wrath gonna last?

Thats 14 judgements. And one of them, the locust horde is supposed to last for a 5 month period...

Hi Kirthril-

I believe that Jesus will cut short the great tribulation interrupting it from continuing to the end of the 42 months. Then during the final portion of the 42 months after He returns, He will be pouring out His wrath. Consider this. The beast has 42 months total of authority. For the first portion of His 42 months, he persecutes all believers who will not take the mark. But this is cut short and God's wrath begins to be poured out on the beast and on His kingdom. This is the Day of the LORD and will take us to the end of the 42 months. The beast meets his doom after a time of great tribulation (exactly unknown amount of time) and after the wrath poured out on him and his kingdom (unknown amount of time), the great tribulation and time of wrath combined both equal 42 months. That's a pretty straight forward reading of Revelation 12-16.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Luke 18:7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

It seems that Jesus knew that there would be plenty of unbelievers at His return. The question was whether or not there would be any elect, or those with faith when He comes. The destruction against unbelievers is something that Christ brings with Him. There are plenty of nations to mourn at His coming in Matthew 24:30. There are plenty of unbelievers to suffer His wrath because of their persecution of the church at His coming, II Thess. 1:8.

Many will be religious, but few will still love the LORD.

So that's why Jesus gives the clear answer that there will be elect when He returns because He cuts that time of tribulation (against believers) short. Other various trials in verses 4-8 are worldwide encompassing both unbelievers and believers. Wars, famines, and pestilences will affect everyone, but neither will they be signs of the end. Another item is explained as being directed solely at believers, and that is tribulation. The words "to be afflicted" in verse 9 is the Greek word thlipsis later translated tribulation when describing the great tribulation. This tribulation comes from being associated with the name of Christ. Other items in verses 9-14 are described which pertain to the disciples as well, false prophets, some abandoning love for iniquity, yet the gospel goes forward.

So Mark, I'm not doing anything to the passage. That's the way it reads.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

The beast meets his doom after a time of great tribulation (exactly unknown amount of time) and after the wrath poured out on him and his kingdom (unknown amount of time), the great tribulation and time of wrath combined both equal 42 months. That's a pretty straight forward reading of Revelation 12-16.

Hi OM,

I read with interest how you divide the 42 months. Nevertheless, I can't help but remember that it is during the great tribulation that if the situation is so bad that no flesh will survive. Even if we interprete "all flesh" to be isolated to the believers, I sense from the read of Matthew 24 that there will be a lot of policing - people will spy and betray each other. "Lawlessness is increased" (v12) - there will be lots of crime, looting, personal harm. And as far as I can gather, you do not think this is isolated to Israel but all over the world. Not to mention as you said - wars, famine and pestilences, which even though has been present throughout history, yet I don't think we doubt that it would be much worse. Can we say Peace and Safety during the great tribulation, even if it is not the part of God's wrath?

Blessings,
KA

Hi Keeping Alert,

Can we say Peace and Safety during the great tribulation, even if it is not the part of God's wrath?

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

It is repeated here in the Noah example as well. The carnel world will have no idea they are getting ready to perish until the day it begins. Just as it was in the days of Noah so will it be when Jesus returns. Noah entered into the ark (protection from the wrath of God) and everyone perished in the water around him and his family. Noah went nowhere besides in a boat to float on the water. He was present during the wrath but not affected by it. The same thing happened in Egypt. The Egyptians were subject to the plagues while their Israeli neighbors were unharmed. I am sure the Egyptians didn't believe Moses either but then they perished from the plagues or their first born did anyway. We who are watching will not be caught unaware only the heathen will be caught off guard because they do not believe the testimony of Christ. That is why they perish. Same thing with Lot. He was lead away from the city but stayed on earth to witness the wrath against Sodom. He was told not to look back, his wife did and was turned to a pillar of salt. The wrath was within eyesight of Lot yet he was protected from it by being led away from the city. Same thing at the end.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Here it is again in Isaiah 26. They are to enter their chambers and hide until the indignation passes over them. Very very much like passover with Moses. God returns to punish the inhabitants of earth while His people enter into their chambers and hide. Both groups (wicked and just) are present at the return of Christ. The wicked mourn and try to hide in the rocks while the Christians lift up their heads to meet their maker in the clouds. Make no mistake about it Jesus returns to deliver His wrath and then gather His elect. That is why people mourn in Matthew 24 seeing Him arrive. They know they are getting ready to get this.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In almost every account of the return of Jesus two distinct groups are found (wheat and tares). The tares are taken first according to Matt 13. Both groups are present together when Jesus arrives. Jesus destroys evil (tares/wicked) and then those alive and remaining meet the Lord to be with Him forever after.

Peace,
Seeker

Peace and saftey can be stated by people during the GT, scripture describes it as occurring in the past during times of trouble. Jer 6 and 8 describe Israel under seige and about to be destroyed and the people say 'Peace, Peace' when there is no peace.

Stating 'peace' during a time of seige and destruction appears to be a recurrent theme, it appears to be a sign of self deception, calling for peace when there is no peace.

Seeker wrote:Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Hi Seeker,

Thanks for your input. I was rather surprised that you used a passage that is commonly quoted as a pre-trib text for verse 19 does talk about a resurrection prior to a time of indignation... and I told myself, we all read things through colored glasses. I guess there is no way of knowing except to let the events play out. In the meantime, we continue to study...

1whowaits wrote:Peace and saftey can be stated by people during the GT, scripture describes it as occurring in the past during times of trouble. Jer 6 and 8 describe Israel under seige and about to be destroyed and the people say 'Peace, Peace' when there is no peace.

Stating 'peace' during a time of seige and destruction appears to be a recurrent theme, it appears to be a sign of self deception, calling for peace when there is no peace.

1whowaits, I guess I am still not seeing it. Jer 6 and 8 indeed is talking about God's wrath coming upon them (6:11) and that even the storks (8:7) know the season but His people does not. Isn't that exactly what is happening now and during the 70th week? Once the 70th week begins, I believe that even unbelievers will sit up and ponder if this is it. Anyone who goes through Revelations all come out trembling. Now seems to be the only time that people do not know the season imho.

Blessings,
KA

Hi Keeping Alert,

Seeker wrote:

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


Hi Seeker,

Thanks for your input. I was rather surprised that you used a passage that is commonly quoted as a pre-trib text for verse 19 does talk about a resurrection prior to a time of indignation... and I told myself, we all read things through colored glasses. I guess there is no way of knowing except to let the events play out. In the meantime, we continue to study...

Actually when we read closely we can see that 26:19 and 26:21 are the same event. Notice in 26:19 ...and the earth shall cast out the dead & in 26:21 ...and shall no more cover her slain. They are saying the same thing; death has been conquered. The dead men shall arise....awake and sing, ye that dwell in the dust. Notice also the Lord coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of earth. While He is punishing they are to hide in their chambers while the indignition passes over. These three verses paint a picture of the return of Jesus and the sequence of events surrounding His return. It is a simple matter to compare to other scripture describing the return of Jesus. We need to find the events in Isaiah 26 in other scripture. Isa 26:19 shows a resurrection. Paul talks specifically about a resurrection in 1Th4 so we can compare what he says to Isa 26.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

God brings with Him all who had died in Christ. This is important to note because the dead in Christ rise before we who remain and are alive.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Those asleep rise before we who are alive in 1Th4:15 and in 1Th4:14 God brings those (who are asleep in Jesus) with Him. So before we are raptured God resurrects the dead in Christ and brings them along for our resurrection. But Jesus has something to attend to upon arrival.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When Jesus is revealed from heaven taking vengence on those who don't know God....Jesus is revealed in a fire of vengence. He returns to destroy evil. We see it also in Rev 19.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

When Jesus leaves heaven He has an army with Him (dead in Christ).

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Here we see Jesus returning with His saints (dead in Christ) to execute judgment upon the sinners. Jesus resurrects His saints (dead in Christ 1Th4/armies of heaven Rev 19/ten thousands of saints Jude 1) returns to earth to execute His wrath and then raptures the living saints. We know the order from Matt 13 specifically.

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The tares go first and the wicked are severed from among the just. To be severed from the just the just have to be there when the wicked are removed. All the scriptures I have shown agree on the sequence of events.

1) Jesus resurrects the saints that are dead
2) Jesus destroys evil
3) Jesus resurrects those of us alive and who remain

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the tribulation we see the cosmic signs. Then all tribes mourn the arrival of Jesus followed by the resurrection of the elect. Why do they mourn? Becuase of Rev 6.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


At the 5th seal we have dead men asking when their blood will be avenged (dead in Christ). They are told not until all their brothers are killed as they were (tribulation). Now in Matt 24 remember "immediately" after the tribulation are the cosmic signs and return of Jesus. So as soon as all their brothers die in the tribulation as they died then the cosmic signs/return of Jesus. The cosmic signs are shown in Rev 6:12 at the 6th seal so this is the same point of time that Matt 24 refers to when Jesus returns to resurrect the elect. What do we see at this point in time in Rev 6? We see Jesus returning in wrath and men trying to hide from Him. Then after that we see the rapture in Rev 7, same sequence. Almost every instance where the return of Jesus is mentioned we see two groups and the sinner group is dealt with first before the alive saints.

Isaiah 26:19 we see the dead in Christ rise.
Isaiah 26:20 we see God's people told to hide and wait until the indignation passes
Isaiah 26:21 we see God destroying evil/sinners/wicked

This matches every other scripture I have used which decribes the return of Jesus. This can only be resolved from a Post-Wrath viewpoint. All the scriptures support the notion that the Christians living when Jesus returns will be the last to board the bus. Just as the days of Noah...they knew not until the flood came and took them all away. Noah was protected on earth in his boat. Isaiah tells them to hide in their chambers much like Moses did in Egypt. Lot was led to safety but remained on earth. We will be here to witness Armageddon, those of us alive and remaining that is...

Peace,
Seeker

The Day of the LORD in relation to the rapture

The Thessalonian epistles stand in a unique position to explain to us the relationship of the phrase “The Day of the LORD” in relation to the coming of Christ, which coming includes the rapture of the church. The phrase “The Day of the LORD” is not unique to Paul, and neither is the theme of the coming of Christ; yet the truths concerning the church are more fully revealed in Paul’s writings than in any other author. As such, we should carefully examine how the phrase is used in I and II Thessalonians.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I Thessalonians is the passage which contains the well known rapture passage. Paul instructs believers not to grieve for departed believers in the same way that unbelievers grieve for their departed loved ones. The reason for this is that Christian believers will be raised from the dead, brought from heaven to earth with Christ when He comes again, be “caught up” to meet Christ as He descends, and forever be united with the Lord Jesus. Paul describes this event (referred to as the rapture by most) and includes both living saints and departed saints as participating equally in the event. Departed saints rise first, then living saints are caught up to be with Christ. Believers have this hope, unbelievers do not.

There are three sounds which accompany this coming of Christ. There is a cry of a command. This command is quite authoritative, possibly being a military command. A related word is used in Acts in reference to government officials commanding orders to civilians. It is a stimulating cry designed to arouse the hunted for a chase such as by hounds. Secondly there is the voice of an archangel. We only know of one archangel in scripture, Michael. He has a special role in end times events. Third, there is the trumpet of God. Other end times passages also refer to a trumpet being blown in relation to the return of Christ.

1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, There is peace and security, then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

After describing this event, Paul continues teaching the Thessalonians that they already have significant knowledge of this event. Paul had been in their presence teaching them of these things and now he reminds them of what he had previously taught them. He states that they understand that the Day he has just spoken of has certain times and seasons which will precede it. He also refers to the Day just described as The Day of the LORD. But notice that only Christians will recognize the indicators which precede the Day of the LORD.

The Day of the LORD (which includes the coming of Christ and rapture of the church) will come like a thief in the night to those who are in spiritual darkness. But Christians are not in that spiritual darkness, so the Day of the LORD will not catch them like a thief in the night. Christians walk in spiritual light and will understand the signs which occur beforehand. The sign which Christians will see is the proclamation of “peace and safety”. However, this statement of peace and safety does not refer to true security. On the heels of this announcement, sudden destruction will come like a thief in the night to the world yet Christians will be prepared. So while the world in general is saying that peace and safety has arrived, Christians should know better.

The last thing we should realize from this passage about the Day of the LORD in relation to the rapture, is the reference to the wrath of God. Paul points out that believers should be prepared for this day because we are not appointed to the wrath of God, but to obtain salvation. This should prompt us to connect the Day of the LORD and coming of Christ with the wrath of God. In contrast to experiencing the wrath of God, believers will experience salvation which results in living with Him (Christ). So when Christ comes, raises the dead, and raptures the church, this spares the church from the wrath of God immediately following.

5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Now for the clarification in II Thessalonians. Paul writes concerning the tribulation and persecution that the Thessalonians church was experiencing. He reminds them that they are suffering for the kingdom of God. Then he commits the vengeance for this suffering into the hands of God. This vengeance will occur when Jesus comes in glory with flaming fire accompanied by His mighty angels. Before the coming of Christ there is tribulation for the church. After the coming of Christ there is the vengeance against those who had been persecuting the church. This coming results in relief and rest for the church.

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then in chapter 2, Paul refers to the aforementioned coming of Christ as the Day of the LORD. He first mentions two things which will occur at the same time, the coming of Christ and the gathering of the church to be with Christ. Then he states that this Day of the LORD has not come and will not come until two things occur first. Before examining these two things, we should notice that Paul is writing of the same coming here in II Thessalonians as he was in I Thessalonians. In I Thessalonians, he wrote a false cry of peace and safety, then Christ’s coming, the church being gathered to him, it happens on the Day of the LORD, and the wrath of God immediately follows. Here in II Thessalonians, he writes of persecution for the church, then the coming of Christ, the gathering of the church, it happens on the Day of the LORD, then the vengeance against those who had been persecuting the church immediately follows. They are obviously describing the same coming.

The two events which precede the Day of the LORD are named and explained. The apostasy is sometimes translated as the rebellion or the falling away. It is later explained as the strong delusion which will lead so many to embrace a lie because they refused to love the truth and be saved. The other is the man of sin being revealed. This is explained as the son of destruction taking a place in the temple of God and proclaiming himself to be God. His coming is accompanied by Satan’s power, false signs, and wicked deception. The coming of this man of sin will precede the coming of Christ as will the apostasy.

We should be able to come to some very simple conclusions about the Day of the LORD and the rapture of the church based on I and II Thessalonians. The Day of the LORD acts as a dividing event between two time periods.

Before the Day of the LORD, there is persecution and tribulation for the church.
After the Day of the LORD, there is vengeance against the ungodly for that persecution.

Before the Day of the LORD, there is a false cry of peace and safety by the world.
After the Day of the LORD, there is sudden destruction for the world.

Before the Day of the LORD, there is a man of sin proclaiming to be God.
After the Day of the LORD, there is the destruction of the man of sin by Christ.

Before the Day of the LORD, there is an apostasy which causes many to embrace a lie.
After the Day of the LORD, those who have embraced the lie will be destroyed.

Before the Day of the LORD, the man of sin is exalted.
After the Day of the LORD, Christ is glorified in the church.

Before the Day of the LORD the times will have been characterized by persecution for the church, the world falsely saying there will be peace and safety, the man of sin deceiving the world by Satanic power, and a great apostasy which includes many believing the lies of the devil. The Day of the LORD will begin with the coming of Christ, the dead in Christ being resurrected, the living church being raptured (granting us relief), then those believers will always be with the LORD. The Day of the LORD will continue after this coming and gathering to be a time of wrath, vengeance, punishment of the ungodly, and destruction of the man of sin.

The previous study shows that the PreWrath Rapture is the most scriptural position. In simply examining these two letters of Paul, we have come to some very simple, yet profound conclusions regarding the Day of the LORD and the rapture of the church. If we were to cross reference other passages, we could expand our events to include even more detail. Referencing Joel 2:28-32 would show that there will be cosmic signs just before the Day of the LORD. Zephaniah 1:14-16 would show us that the Day of the LORD is a day of wrath announced with a trumpet blast and battle cry. Matthew 24:29-31 would place the coming of Christ with a gathering of the elect, but also noting that the nations will mourn as they see Christ coming in glory and power. This passage also shows cosmic signs acting as portents to the coming of Christ placed immediately after the great tribulation. The sixth seal of Revelation and Isaiah 2:10-21 could be examined as well.

Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Noah was protected on earth in his boat. Isaiah tells them to hide in their chambers much like Moses did in Egypt. Lot was led to safety but remained on earth.

Hey Seeker,
I'm pre-wrath but since I see the raptured saints meeting Christ in the air and then coming down to accompany him on his day of the Lord missions to Bozrah, etc., I don't see a conflict with what you're saying. Now, John does see a the great multitude in white robes before the throne, but savedbygrace has made some good points and now I'm wondering exactly which throne that scene is going to take place in front of. I don't know, I'm still studying, but I'm just saying that if we are never raptured to the 3rd heaven, but instead come back down after the meeting in the clouds, wouldn't that solve the problems you're having with the idea of a pre-wrath rapture?

Hi dshemjo,

I'm pre-wrath but since I see the raptured saints meeting Christ in the air and then coming down to accompany him on his day of the Lord missions to Bozrah, etc.,

I presume you are talking about Isaiah 34 here. So from your perspective raptured saints would be with the Lord at 34:2 prior to the start of the destruction correct? The resurrection would have had to already occur if raptured saints are with Jesus at Bozrah.

Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Notice that as part of the destruction we see the heavens rolled together as a scroll. So the resurrection would have to had already occured before this scrolling event. Believe it or not the word scroll is only used twice in the bible. Once here in Isa 34 and the other place is Rev 6:14.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Practically identical wording in both instances. This is nice because it allows us to timestamp when the heavens are rolled up as a scroll. We can see from Rev 6 that this occurs at the 6th seal. The sixth seal also has what I refer to as the cosmic signs (sun/moon darkened)in Rev 6:12. These same cosmic signs are also found in Matt 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Notice it says "immediately after" the tribulation of those days...We know the tribulation is the last 3 1/2 years. So immediately after the 3 1/2 trib we have the cosmic signs. The scroll event is part of the cosmic signs in Rev 6. The scroll event is part of the Bozrah event in Isa 34. Your logic dictates that we must be raptured prior to the Bozrah event which is also the 6th seal.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Since this is after the cosmic signs (scroll&Bozrah events) we will have to be already raptured to arrive with Jesus in power and glory but the elect haven't been gathered yet that happens in Matt 24:31.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So we can't be with Jesus while He is in the clouds in Matt 24 because that is when we are gathered in the first place. In the pre-wrath scenario we would have to be with Him since we are with Him at Bozrah and part of the cosmic signs occur with the Bozrah event. Those cosmic signs/Bozrah occur before Jesus returns in the clouds in Matt 24. A post-wrath view doesn't have that contradiction.

Peace,
Seeker

Thanks for your response, Seeker

First of all, I'm cool with post-wrath in the sense that I don't see it as a dangerous doctrine. I think pre-trib is dangerous and has the capacity to shipwreck one's faith when that time comes, especially when it is combined with the doctine of OSAS. But anyway, I've never really had much discussion with someone who's post-wrath, so I consider it a privelege. I'm looking up these passages about Bozrah and Edom and thinking this though as I go along, so it may be a little disjointed.


Isaiah 34 NIV--Come near, you nations, and listen; pay attention, you peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world, and all that comes out of it!

The Lord is angry with all nations; his wrath is upon all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.

Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will send up a stench; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.

All the stars of the heavens will be dissolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.

The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat-- the blood of lambs and goats, fat from the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom. And the wild oxen will fall with them, the bull calves and the great bulls. Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat.
For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.

What I see here is 1) announcement of the day of the Lord 2)sign in the heavens 3)Judgement on Bozrah, Edom
And then the last verse affirms that this judgement is part of the day of the Lord.

So I don't think this passage proves that the sky rolls up like a scroll at the exact time of the Bozrah judgement. This verse seems to fit just fine with the overall timeline I'm seeing from other verses: great trib....cut short, sign in the heavens, Christ returns in the clouds, rapture, day of the Lord.

More about Bozrah, Edom:

Isaiah 63 NIV--Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? "It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save."

Why are your garments red, like those of one treading the winepress?

"I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing.

For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and the year of my redemption has come.

I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me.

I trampled the nations in my anger; in my wrath I made them drunk and poured their blood on the ground."

....which ties in nicely with:

Revelation 19:11--I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Hi dshemjo,

Glad to discuss this with you as well, it is through discussion that we learn and challenge our own assumptions. In Isa 63 Jesus says no one was with Him at Bozrah He did it alone so how could the pre-wrath saints be with Him if it was Him alone?

Isa 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
Isa 63:5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

Wouldn't there be some kind of hint that the saints were with Him? Why does He specifically say He was alone?

Peace,
Seeker

Hi Seeker,

Hey, that's an interesting point!

How does that mesh with . . .

Jude 1:14-15
(14) Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
(15) to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
(7) and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
(8) in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:30-31
(30) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19:11-14
(11) Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
(12) His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
(13) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
(14) And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

When Jesus comes, He is with an heavenly host.

So it seems to me, we have these options:

A) Jesus' judgment at Bozrah is at a different time.

B) Jesus leaves the angels, and visits Bozrah alone.

C) "None with Me" refers to none treading the winepress except Jesus alone, not that there was no one else present.

Are there other options? What do you think?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I will go with B). The angels are usually shown doing the reaping of the elect while Jesus is usually shown doing the reaping of the wicked (their destruction). The dead in Christ are with Jesus because God brings them with Him prior to our rapture. The dead in Christ rise first. So for Jude 1 the saints travelling with Jesus are the dead in Christ God brings with Him.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When Jesus heads off for earth those who have died believing in Christ are raised and He brings them with Him. They are the armies of heaven Jesus brings with Him in Rev 19. He brings the armies of heaven but doesn't use them as far as I can see.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

There is no battle here they are all slain by the sword of Jesus. No mention of angels in the battle either. So honestly I think that the notion of the saints returning to do battle with the Lord is not supported with scripture that I can see. There are saints with Him but the dead in Christ rise first.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Here saints are mentioned but not as doing any type of battle so again it appears Jesus does the battle here. See I don't think scripture supports multiple returns of Jesus just a second return.

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The men were on the mount of Olives gazing up into the sky while Jesus lifted into a cloud. The angels tell them that Jesus will return in like manner as to how He left. He left the mount of Olives in a cloud so will return to the mount of Olives in a cloud.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Here Jesus lands on the mount of Olives with all the saints. It is at the "day of the Lord" when the nations are gathered against Israel. Jesus is just now arriving with the saints. This is Armageddon Jesus is returning to here. This actually proves the timing of the retun of Jesus. Jesus only returns once and it is at the mount of Olives in a cloud with His saints. This is where He destroys the forces aligned against Israel (Armageddon/Gog). That would have the saints returning with Jesus at the battle of Armageddon.

Peace,
Seeker

Thank you, Seeker!

So then, are you saying, Jesus leaves the saints on the Mount of Olives, to then go to Bozrah alone?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,

So then, are you saying, Jesus leaves the saints on the Mount of Olives, to then go to Bozrah alone?

Not quite that but rather Jesus takes care of Bozrah as He is landing.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We are told three significant things here.

1) Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with Him.
2) The dead in Christ will rise first
3) Then after that we who are alive and remain meet the Lord+dead in Christ in the air

Since Jesus brings the dead in Christ with Him and they rise before we do, the saints with Jesus as He arrives in the clouds are not the "alive and remaining saints" it is the dead in Christ saints.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The "ten thousands" are the dead in Christ because God brings them with Him and these 10,000's are with the Lord when arrives. This is the same group in Rev 19.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The armies of heaven clothed in white linen would be the dead in Christ Jesus brings with Him. This solves who those saints are that return with Jesus. The dead in Christ rise first and accompany the Lord to earth so that when those on earth see the Lord coming in power and glory they will see the resurrected dead in Christ riding as an army behind Christ. Jesus Himself tells us many times in scripture that He would return in the clouds like the angels from Acts 1 teach. The "alive and remaining" saints haven't been dealt with yet Jesus has something else on His platter prior to our rapture.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

When Jesus is revealed "from heaven" it is in flaming fire taking vengence. When Jesus is in the clouds arriving He has His 10,000's (dead in Christ) with Him. So Jesus is leading the pack in flaming fire with countless saints dressed in white behind Him as an army.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The ones dressed in white are asking when it is time to avenge their blood. They are the dead in Christ. Fits right into the 2Th1 theme a returning to take vengence of those that don't know God. Next we see the cosmic signs which Joel 2 tells us happens before the day of the Lord and Matt 24 tells us that Jesus returns just after these cosmic signs.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The cosmic signs which are also the 6th seal occur immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Heaven rolling up as a scroll is part of the 6th seal and also part of the Bozrah event giving us the Bozrah event timing. The cosmic signs/6th seal/heaven as scroll all occur before the day of the Lord according to Joel 2. That would timestamp Bozrah as being just before the Lord gathers the elect. So He takes care of Bozrah prior to landing during the 6th seal. Jesus raises the dead in Christ first bringing them with Him as He administers vengence upon arrival just prior to our rapture.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


In the wheat and tares parable Jesus says it directly the tares go first. Let both (wheat and tares) grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest Jesus will send His angels to gather the tares "first". In the net parable the wicked are severed from among the just showing both groups together at the harvest with the wicked removed first from among the just. So Jesus resurrects the dead in Christ they ride with Him to earth as He dispences the wrath of God upon the wicked as Jesus arrives then raptures those of us who are "alive and remain". Why throw in alive and remain? Remain after what? It is referring to those who are still standing after the wrath is over. It will only be the righteous because in Matt 13:41 Jesus gathers out all things that offend.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Here's the cosmic signs again in association with the day of the Lord and removing sinners out of the land followed by the millennium where God has mercy on Israel and brings them back into the fold. All these scriptures make perfect sense together if and only if one looks at them from a post-wrath perspective. Then the whole picture becomes clear and less cloudy. Jesus only has one sencond coming and it is at the 6th seal while He is distributing the wrath of God just prior to gathering us up with Him. When He sets foot on the mount of Olives with the dead in Christ, Bozrah and many nations will have experienced the wrath of the Lamb as He arrives. Armageddon is over when Jesus lands basically. The wrath of God has already gone through the 6th seal/trumpet/vial by the time Jesus arrives to rapture those alive and remaining after the wrath.

Peace,
Seeker

Maybe I'm confusing something here . . . I thought you said that Jesus would be at Bozrah alone . . . but you're also saying that Jesus would have the "dead in Christ" with Him?

Maybe I'm confusing something here . . . I thought you said that Jesus would be at Bozrah alone . . . but you're also saying that Jesus would have the "dead in Christ" with Him?

No Isaiah 63 said Jesus alone defeated them. There could 15 trillion people standing there with Him watching but Jesus dispenses the wrath. Do you think Jesus needs help defeating them? Oh and I said Jesus took care of Bozrah on the way to earth. On the way to earth He is with His saints but He doesn't need the saints to help Him defeat Bozrah.

Peace,
Seeker

Thanks, Seeker! I was just wondering how you viewed this. Its sounds like you are for option C)

C) "None with Me" refers to none treading the winepress except Jesus alone, not that there was no one else present.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,

A) Jesus' judgment at Bozrah is at a different time.

B) Jesus leaves the angels, and visits Bozrah alone.

C) "None with Me" refers to none treading the winepress except Jesus alone, not that there was no one else present.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. There reason for B) was that Jesus does sort of leave everyones company to do the Bozrah thing. I was thinking of the winepress more for Armageddon than Bozrah. Bozrah on the way down and Armageddon upon arrival. Bozrah appears to be with the 6th seal which is slightly before the touchdown of Jesus at Armageddon. So I was looking at C) as a bit later but now see what you meant; I am a bit a B) and a bit of C) I guess then...confused as always...lol

Later,
Seeker

Very good work, Seeker! Thorough and straight forward.

Hi lamb7,

Thanks much appreciated bless you too.

Peace,
Seeker

Wouldn't there be some kind of hint that the saints were with Him? Why does He specifically say He was alone?

Hey Seeker,

"I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me. I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment.

Yea, I'm seeing this as no one from the peoples--as in no other nations are with him in his attack on Bozrah. And also, I think the saints are just watching-- like you said, he doesn't need any help.

Just to zoom out a little and see the broader picture, where do you see the rapture? Seventh trumpet in Revelation? Armaggedon? I was big time pre-trib, now pre-wrath, but I have only a vague picture of what post-tribbers believe.

Hi dshemjo,

Just to zoom out a little and see the broader picture, where do you see the rapture? Seventh trumpet in Revelation? Armaggedon? I was big time pre-trib, now pre-wrath, but I have only a vague picture of what post-tribbers believe.

First off my position is a bit different than most post-tribbers. The term post-trib can mean anything after the tribulation including pre-wrath. Technically pre-wrath sets the rapture in a post-trib mode. The only real difference in my position is that I say we are here during the wrath but not part of the wrath. Just as was the case in Egypt, with Noah, and Lot. They all were physically present for the wrath but not subject to the wrath. So I sort of picked up the term post-wrath for my view to set it apart. I believe that God's wrath begins in the second half of the 70th week sometime after the AOD and ends at Armageddon, which ends at the 7th trumpet. When the kingdoms of earth become the Lord's. I will show you in scripture where I view the rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is the rapture and the order of events in 1Th4.

1) Them which sleep in Jesus God will bring with Him (1Th4:14)
2) The dead in Christ will rise first (1Th4:16)
3) Then we who are alive and remain join those with Jesus already (1Th4:17)

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jesus describes the resurrection as occuring on the last day. So when is the last day? That would be where we see the resurrections in the bible. Jesus says that all who believe in Him (dead in Christ) will be raised on the last day. So the last day would be at the resurrection which is shown in Rev 20 after Armageddon.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is the first resurrection. Remember the dead in Christ rise first so before we are raptured Rev 20:4 has taken place since it is the "first" resurrection. Rev 20 occurs after Armageddon so we are raptured after Armageddon (removal of the tares).

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

At the time of the harvest...We can know when Jesus is talking about from the interpretation portion,,,

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The harvest is at the end of the world which could definitely be considered the "last day". As the tares are gathered in bundles; so shall it be at the end of the world. How are the tares bundled?

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

They are gathered first and bound into bundles; so shall it be at the end of the world. The tares or wicked go first at Armageddon then those of us alive and remaining (following Rev 20:4 resurrection/dead in Christ).

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 5th seal shows souls asking God when their blood will be avenged. They are told to wait until their brethren are killed as they were. This is the great tribulation. We can be sure because this is followed by the cosmic signs.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after the tribulation we have the cosmic signs followed by the return of Jesus. This matches Rev 6 precisely. In Rev 6 though Jesus is shown returning in wrath. He is also in Matt 24 but it is subtle and easy to read past.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the tribes of earth mourn when they see Jesus arriving on the clouds. They see Him in flaming fire and try to hide as shown in Rev 6. So Rev 6 shows the same cosmic signs that are in Matt 24 linking the two as the same. So this would explain why the tribes are mourning they know He is about to do what is shown in Rev 6. So Matt 24 shows the same sequence as Rev 6 also.

1) Tribulation (Rev 6:8-9...Matt 24:15-28)
2) Cosmic signs, immediately after tribulation (Rev 6:12-14...Matt 24:29)
3) Wrath (Rev 6:15-17...Matt 24:30 mourning)
4) Rapture (Rev 7:9....Matt 24:31)

Matt 24 continues explaining the events.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

They knew not until the flood came and took them all away. Two in the field one taken....Who got taken away? The sinners were the ones removed. Noah was on a boat on earth but protected from the wrath.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

When is Jesus revealed?

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Noah and family were the only ones left standing after the wrath (flood). The were in the wrath but not appointed to the wrath. Same as the plagues in Egypt. The Israelis marked their doors and the angel of death passed by their homes while killing the firstborn in their Egyptian neighbors homes. Lot was led to safety away from the wrath but within eyesight of it. There really isn't any presidence in the bible for God removing His people from danger.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Resurrection (dead in Christ) in 26:19 and then His people are to hide in their chambers while the indignation pass over/ 1/3rd through the fire.

Isa 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isa 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Then Israel gathered in her land/millennium. So same sequence again. Each time the return of the Lord is mentioned I find the same sequence if I search hard enough. I can only find that we will be here to witness Armageddon. We will survive through the wrath leaving only righteousness on earth to inherit the kingdom. The early departure consists of the sinners, the tares are removed first. I wanted to try and fully explain it as I will be gone for the weekend and unlikely able to respond. Anyway any questions and I'll get to them as soon as I can.

Peace,
Seeker

Seeker wrote: The only real difference in my position is that I say we are here during the wrath but not part of the wrath. Just as was the case in Egypt, with Noah, and Lot. They all were physically present for the wrath but not subject to the wrath. So I sort of picked up the term post-wrath for my view to set it apart. I believe that God's wrath begins in the second half of the 70th week sometime after the AOD and ends at Armageddon, which ends at the 7th trumpet. When the kingdoms of earth become the Lord's. I will show you in scripture where I view the rapture.


Noah and family were the only ones left standing after the wrath (flood). The were in the wrath but not appointed to the wrath. Same as the plagues in Egypt. The Israelis marked their doors and the angel of death passed by their homes while killing the firstborn in their Egyptian neighbors homes. Lot was led to safety away from the wrath but within eyesight of it. There really isn't any presidence in the bible for God removing His people from danger.


Peace,
Seeker

I also agree that we will be here for the wrath, but that those that are His, will be protected. Just as with the sting of the scorpian thingys...

4They were told not to hurt the (J)grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Why differentiate those who do not "have the seal of God"...it must mean that there "will be" those there who "do have" the "seal of God".

In Christ,
lamb

Seeker,

By this below, do you see those in "1)" and those in "2)" as two different groups?

This is the rapture and the order of events in 1Th4.

1) Them which sleep in Jesus God will bring with Him (1Th4:14)
2) The dead in Christ will rise first (1Th4:16)
3) Then we who are alive and remain join those with Jesus already (1Th4:17)


I don't, the dead in Christ are the physical bodies being resurrected and united with those (souls) that had been asleep in Jesus, IMO.

Hi Mark,

By this below, do you see those in "1)" and those in "2)" as two different groups?

This is the rapture and the order of events in 1Th4.

1) Them which sleep in Jesus God will bring with Him (1Th4:14)
2) The dead in Christ will rise first (1Th4:16)
3) Then we who are alive and remain join those with Jesus already (1Th4:17)


I don't, the dead in Christ are the physical bodies being resurrected and united with those (souls) that had been asleep in Jesus, IMO.

I agree with you 1&2 are the same group. The point I was making was that Jesus brings saints with Him, who are resurrected before those on earth alive. If Jesus also is shown returning in the clouds with His saints when He returns to rapture us then those two facts combined determine the sequence of events. I didn't explain that very well but that is what I was trying to point out. So yes they are the same group. For all the things written about the return of Jesus to be true the only possible way I see is if His return/our rapture is after the battle of Armageddon. Hope that answers your question.

Peace,
Seeker

i believe the catching up occurs prior to the battle of armageddon, as the nations gather for the battle. In Matt 24 Jesus describes Himself in the clouds and the nations mourning after the time of distress,as being the time when the elect are gathered. As Jesus would be seen in the clouds prior to setting foot on the earth, and as He will return in the same manner that He left, Jesus appearing in the clouds and the elect being gathered wiould occur prior to the battle of armageddon, at which time He sets foot on the mount and destroyes the gathered armies at the battle of armageddon.

Zech 12 describes Jesus being seen by Israel, they 'look on' the One who was pierced and mourn, which would be consistent with Jesus being seen in the clouds by the mourning nations prior to setting foot on the earth. Zech 14 then describes Jesus setting foot on the earth and destroying the gathered armies after the Israelis 'look on' Him and mourn.

Jesus also states that He is 'coming like a thief' as the armies gather for armageddon in Rev 16. Using the phrase 'coming like a thief' would point back to Matt 24 and Jesus' gathering of the elect while He is in the clouds.

Rev 14 also describes the gathering of the wheat by 'one like the Son of Man' prior to the trampling of the grapes, the imagery used for the battle of armageddon.

The sequence would appear to be Jesus coming in the clouds as the armies gather for armageddon, the elect, those who believe, are gathered, and the nations mourn. Jesus then sets foot on the mount with the elect coming with Him, His 'holy ones' (Zech 14), and the battle of armageddon begins.

Although Rev 20 describes the first resurrection after describing the battle, the depiction of the first resurrection can be a review in detail of an event that had just been described. This is also done in the description of Babylon in Rev 16 and 17, Babylon is described as being destroyed in Rev 16 and then Rev 17 goes back and reviews Babylon in detail prior to its destruction.

The sequence does appear to be Jesus coming in the clouds and gathering believers prior to returning to earth at the battle of armageddon. Although there may be some wrath prior to that point (the bowls), the real wrath begins when Jesus sets foot on the earth at armageddon, which the 7th trumpet appears to describe, 'the nations were angry, and your wrath has come'.