When is the Rapture?

[benny balerio]

The Age of Grace began at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture.

So you can't earn your way in as a martyr or a survivor.

In the coming age, men on Earth will look up into the sky and see the New Jerusalem, home of the Church, in orbit nearby.

Where stands it written? - that is the motto of the (Swedish) Evangelical Free Church and I like it because it makes them like the Bereans, whom I admire.

Please provide Scriptural proof. That's a pretty high standard.

But that all comes to a crashing halt at the Rapture.

That's not quite what the Bible has to say about the people left after the Harvest: "...their deeds will follow them."

In an earlier study, The Nature Of Post Church Salvation, I made the case that post Church believers, whether Jew or Gentile, will not enjoy the seal of the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their inheritance. Eternal Security is a blessing for the Church alone and ends with the end of the Age of Grace at the Rapture. Two passages from Revelation illustrate this.

1. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

Negative, this call is the Church not to be like the five foolish virgins. Verse 12 does not happen in a vacuum. It comes right before the Harvest.

Speaking of the perilous times after the introduction of the Mark of the Beast, the Lord had John say that both obedience and faith will be required of Tribulation believers, whereas the Church is saved by grace through faith alone.

2. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." (Rev. 16:15.)

Post-Rapture - this describes the duty of the Remnant Jews to be at the ready to move as various desolations imperil their existence.

Immediately after the 2nd Coming, the Temple will be cleansed and on Earth animal sacrifice will begin again.

Nope. Animal sacrifice is a Millennium condition. I don't know of any verse/passage which foretells of the cleansing of the Temple when Jesus arrives there on the Day of the Lord (post-Rapture). It might be, I just don't have any knowledge that that is written.

You Quote:
So you can't earn your way in as a martyr or a survivor

My Reply:
Matthew 24;13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
The trib saint must provide evidence of their faith by works.
Matthew 25;
37Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

AGAIN!
The trib saint must provide evidence of their faith by works.

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

The Sheep(Trib Saints)...will be allowed to enter the millennium based on their works of faith.

The believer today,..is saved by Grace during this church age.

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor.
A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense
Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.
The last 7 years there is only judgement,...no grace to allow those little sins

You Quote:
Where stands it written? - that is the motto of the (Swedish) Evangelical Free Church and I like it because it makes them like the Bereans, whom I admire.

Please provide Scriptural proof. That's a pretty high standard.


My Reply:
revelation 21;
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You Quote:
That's not quite what the Bible has to say about the people left after the Harvest: "...their deeds will follow them."


My Reply:
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

“Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." (Rev. 14:12-13)

Here the Lord admonished Tribulation believers to obey the Commandments and remain faithful, knowing that those who refuse the mark will either be martyred or forced out of the world's economic system, denied access to life's necessities. Those who die for their faith will be blessed, because their ordeal will be over.

And in Rev. 16:15 the Lord said,

Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.

If you're familiar with the symbolic reference to clothing, you know what this verse means. If not, let's review it. Isaiah 61:10 says, I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Just as clothing provides physical covering, righteousness provides spiritual covering. God has clothed us in garments of salvation and a robe of righteousness.

Now look at Zechariah 3:3-4. In Zechariah's vision, Joshua, the High Priest, is standing before the angel of the Lord, obviously Jesus. Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."

Removing his filthy clothes symbolized taking away his sin. Putting rich garments on him made him righteous.

Rev 19:8 tells us that the Bride was given garments of fine linen bright and clean to wear and that the fine linen stands for her righteousness. But again, the clothing isn't hers. It was given to her.

You Quote:
Negative, this call is the Church not to be like the five foolish virgins. Verse 12 does not happen in a vacuum. It comes right before the Harvest.


My Reply:
Rev. 16:15 implies that Tribulation believers are responsible for remaining steadfast in their faith to avoid losing their salvation. Matt. 25:8 agrees, telling us that all 10 virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning, but the five foolish ones didn’t have enough to carry them through. Remember, all 10 virgins are caught sleeping when He returns. It’s the oil that distinguishes one group from the other, not their behavior.

Second, these 10 women are called virgins or bridesmaids, but never the Bride. Conversely, the Church is the Bride, and is never called a bridesmaid! And when did you ever hear of a bride having to plead with the groom for admission to her own wedding banquet?

What one must keep in mind,..is that once saved, always saved,..which is not the case for the trib saint.

And isn't He the one who's been charged with the responsibility for keeping us? Let's read it.

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:38-40)

Just in case we missed this promise, Jesus made it again even more clearly in John 10:28-30. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." The Father and the Son have both accepted responsibility for our security. Once we're in Their hands, no one can get us away.

You Quote:
Post-Rapture - this describes the duty of the Remnant Jews to be at the ready to move as various desolations imperil their existence.

My Reply:
Do you have a point here?

You Quote:
Nope. Animal sacrifice is a Millennium condition. I don't know of any verse/passage which foretells of the cleansing of the Temple when Jesus arrives there on the Day of the Lord (post-Rapture). It might be, I just don't have any knowledge that that is written.

My Reply:
At the end of the 490 years, the holy of holies in the Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem will be anointed once again for God’s service (cf other prophecies of the future Temple - Joel 3:18, Is 60:7, Jer 33:20, 21, 22, Ezek 37:26, 27, 28).

The prophet Ezekiel records that the Temple will be rebuilt and this will occur during the time immediately following the Second Coming of Christ, commonly referred to as the Millennial (1000 year), when Messiah will reign for 1000 years on earth (Ezek 40-48). This 1000 year period is based primarily on the repeated phrase 1000 years (6 times) in Revelation 20. Many who refuse to interpret the Scriptures literally (where that interpretation is quite reasonable), take the 1000 years as symbolic, an interpretation generally referred to as amillennial. It is interesting that many of those who hold this position, also hold the position that God is finished with Israel and that the promises made to Israel in the OT have been "defaulted" to the Church. They base this specious interpretation on a misinterpretation of Galatians 6:16 (see discussion of the phrase Israel of God). Those who assume this non-literal interpretation, not surprisingly have considerable difficulty interpreting the book of the Revelation, which if taken literally, chronicles the final dealing of God with His chosen people Israel. It is little wonder (and very sad) that there are such a plethora of confusing interpretations on the great book of the Revelation.

Ezekiel records that (after the 490 years are completed)

the glory of the God of Israel (Shekinah Glory - see study on The Glory of the LORD) ) was coming from the way of the east (which retraces the departure of the glory of the LORD as recorded by Ezekiel - Ezek 9:3, 10:4, 18, 19, 11:23, this last location being the Mount of Olives, directly east of the Eastern Gate and the Holy of holies on Temple Mount). And His voice was like the sound of many waters (cp John's description of the glorified Jesus in Re 1:15-note); and the earth shone with His glory (cp Hab 2:14). And it was like the appearance of the vision which I saw, like the vision which I saw when He came to destroy the city. And the visions were like the vision which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face. And the glory of the Lord came into the house (the Holy Temple) by the way of the gate facing toward the east (if you visit Jerusalem today, the Eastern Gate is bricked shut, but one day in the future it will be opened again to welcome the return of the Messiah to His holy place!). And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house (the Millennial Temple). Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me. And He (Messiah is speaking) said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever.... (Ezek 43:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
http://preceptaustin.org/daniel_924.htm

[benny balerio]

as to the OP question- When is the rapture??

I say hopefully soon....

As to the timing of events, everyone seems to think scripture is so clear about it being when they think it is, but the fact remains that if it were so obvious then there would be no debate about it. I happen to believe in a pre-trib rapture and have explained why I believe scripture supports this idea. But as we all do, there is some speculation involved in the interpretation of scripture which helps me arrive at my conclusions. Though I still contend that certain scriptures do appear to rule out certain views regarding the timing of some of the end times events. In any case we must all look critically at how we interpret scripture, we all, myself included, look at things from the foundation of what we want to believe is true. In order to be convinced or to convince others you have to ask the "what if?" question and follow it logically through the scriptures. "What if"- what he or she says is true? "What if"- I am wrong in my understanding? We need to step off our foundation sometimes and examine what others say and how it truly lines up with scriptures. I see an awful lot of speculation going on in this thread that is pro-ported as fact. Let's be honest with each other, and realize that our foundation influences our interpretation. Let's be honest about what is fact and what isn't. This whole pretext and actual context business.... what is pro-ported as "actual context" is not actual context at all, it is merely another supposition based on actual context. Actual context is the actual scripture-word for word, not what you believe it is saying.

Just throwing in my two cents.

RT

1 Thessalonians 5;4 is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the rapture.
With that thought in mind,...I ask you,...what is it that you disagree with in the following link?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=59505&p=540029#p540029

[benny balerio]

This prophecy of Zechariah 12;10 is exclusively for the Jew and not the Gentile.

No real disagreement here.

This event occurs at the sign of the Son of Man.

Nope!

The sun/moon/star event happens first heralding the Day of the Lord.
The sign of the Son of Man (the scrolling of the sky) happens after that.
Then Jesus arrives on the clouds and gathers us up.

That is what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. We know what you think of that. Denial is hardly recognized by those exercising it.

Just so that there is no confusion,...the whole of Daniels 70th week is the Day of the Lord.

Nope!

It is a Day.

You Quote:
Nope!

The sun/moon/star event happens first heralding the Day of the Lord.
The sign of the Son of Man (the scrolling of the sky) happens after that.
Then Jesus arrives on the clouds and gathers us up.

That is what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. We know what you think of that. Denial is hardly recognized by those exercising it.

My Reply:
So basicly ,..you are claiming that a rapture of the dead and alive is to occur moments before the Lord descends on mount olivet?

You Quote:
It is a [u]Day

My Reply:
When you say that the Day of the Lord is a day,..I assume that you are claiming that it is only a 24 hour period.
This of course, is an incorrect interpretation on your part.

The Biblical term "Day of the Lord" is not referring to a 24 hour day but rather a period of time in which God will personally and abruptly intervene into the history of man's affairs to directly orchestrate the climax of His overall plan for planet earth and fulfill all that He has promised He would do in His written Word. While God individually intervenes with each of us today on a personal basis through the work of His Holy Spirit, this "Day of the Lord" will be a much different type of intervention as it will be on a global scale. Most of the details about what will transpire during this period are recorded in the book of Revelation, particularly in chapters 4 through 19. This period is also known as Daniel’s 70th week or “the time of Jacob’s trouble”, (Jeremiah 30:7), in which all the nations left in the world will come against Israel and the Lord will physically return to deliver Israel from her enemies and the from the anti-christ. He will destroy them and then judge the remaining world. All of Israel will come to know Jesus Christ as their Messiah during this period as well. Throughout it all this will be a period of God’s wrath upon a sinful Christ rejecting world. It will first be inaugurated with the Rapture of the Church. That is why certain Scriptures refer to the "Day of the Lord" as coming suddenly like a thief in the night, (Zephaniah 1:14-15, Luke 21:34, & 1 Thessalonians 5:2), for the Rapture can happen at any given moment.
http://www.raptureready.com/soap/leasher10.html

The 70th week of Daniel is the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord in Daniels 70th week is the Wrath of God.
At this time,..today,.....The Lord is sitting on the on the Throne of Grace,..but in revelation 5,..we see him standing to judge the earth.
Also take notice in revelation 15;1I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.
This implies that trumpet judgements are Gods wrath too.

[MarkT]

I will chime in that nothing in the "one" being "removed from the midst" (the best Greek translation for the action being described in the original language) suggests the "departure" of the Saints. In 2Th 2, that argument that LaHaye and Thomas Ice would make for the "rebellion" (apostesia) is weak in and of itself to begin with - but is totally refuted by the first verse of 2Th 2, and by a quiet, studied analysis of all Paul's layering of events by the use of his term: "until."

I agree that the word .."rebellion" is a incorrect interpretation by the interpreters in most bible translations
The correct word suggests a departure of the Bride,..and not a falling away from the faith.

You agree? Well I said no such thing! I did not say the word meant departure. Far from it! apostesia means apostacy - it's where we get our word - from the Greek!

Apostacy does not mean a physical departure, but a departure from the rule of law or moral code.

apostesia, much as the equivalent English word apostasy, means a renunciation of a religious faith, or in the second definition a desertion or departure of what one has voluntarily professed—Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971. In as much as rebellion is a departure from God, having a translation of apostesia rendered as departure in the King James Version does not infer the physical departure of the Church. In latter translations, the ambiguity is cleared up and apostesia is translated for what it is - apostacy (NASB).

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has the following:
“Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2 Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt 24:11-12).”—p.89

But this event occurs in a pre-trib setting.

Well if you can't read what I wrote, how should I trust you to interpret what Paul wrote?

Paul said Jesus wouldn't come and the Rapture doesn't happen UNTIL the apostacy occurs and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

Saying it occurs in a "pre-trib setting" is just wishful thinking made up out of whole cloth - it just isn't there.

[benny balerio]

You Quote:
Actual Context of 2 Thess. 2:7-9: When the Restrainer is removed, the man of sin will appear "to the world". This will mark the beginning of the Great Tribulation, when the Antichrist will be healed of a deadly wound (Rev. 13:3). Those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will "wonder" at him and ultimately worship him (Rev. 13:8; 17:8). His life will continue 1260 days. (Dan. 7:25; Rev. 13:5).

That's not my quote.

I assume that you believe that you will know who the anti-christ is when the 7 year covenant has been confirmed at the beginning of Daniels 70th week.

Perhaps, but the wise will recognize him before the rank-and-file Christians do, especially people who adhere to Ammillennialism and Post-Millennialism because they won't even be looking for a literal fulfillment.

Where stands it written?

Dan 11:33 "Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered."

But then you are stating here that his identity will not be known,,..that is,..not until the event of the A.O.D.

Nope! That's not what I said.

But you do have a problem,..one example among many,....you are claiming that the Bride enters Daniels 70th week(which I know is not true)

Yes, the Church does go through the first half of the one 'seven;' they will see the midpoint abomination, and we will suffer greatly during the Great Tribulation.

Don't go looking for Jesus in all the wrong places when you find yourself scrambling for your life.

You Quote:
Where stands it written?

My Reply:
It is just common sense.
Just because one is very familiar with scriptures such as endtime prophecy,..does not mean that they are saved,..without Jesus,..we have nothing.
I am sure that some who are left behind, will recognize who the anti-christ is when he confirms a 7 year covenant.

You Quote:
Yes, the Church does go through the first half of the one 'seven;' they will see the midpoint abomination, and we will suffer greatly during the Great Tribulation.

My Reply:
That is incorrect,..I assure you that the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week.
Once again,..in the 490 decree given to the Jewish race by the Lord,...the first 483 years was without the Bride,...the last 7 years known as the "Time of Jacobs Trouble" too,...will be without the Bride.
Have you ever wondered why there is a difference in the following verses?

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

Revelation 3:6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

Revelation 3:13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

Revelation 3:22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

And this verse:

Revelation 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear.


Answer:The reason Revelation 13:9 only states the words.."He who has an ear, let him hear" and has not included the words"what the Spirit says to the churches.” is because the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way and has taken the bride with Him.
Even though He is still omnipresent,..He no longer Indwells those who come to Christ Jesus, as He did prior to Daniels 70th week.

[benny balerio]

I will chime in that nothing in the "one" being "removed from the midst" (the best Greek translation for the action being described in the original language) suggests the "departure" of the Saints. In 2Th 2, that argument that LaHaye and Thomas Ice would make for the "rebellion" (apostesia) is weak in and of itself to begin with - but is totally refuted by the first verse of 2Th 2, and by a quiet, studied analysis of all Paul's layering of events by the use of his term: "until."

I agree that the word .."rebellion" is a incorrect interpretation by the interpreters in most bible translations
The correct word suggests a departure of the Bride,..and not a falling away from the faith.

You agree? Well I said no such thing! I did not say the word meant departure. Far from it! apostesia means apostacy - it's where we get our word - from the Greek!

Apostacy does not mean a physical departure, but a departure from the rule of law or moral code.

apostesia, much as the equivalent English word apostasy, means a renunciation of a religious faith, or in the second definition a desertion or departure of what one has voluntarily professed—Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971. In as much as rebellion is a departure from God, having a translation of apostesia rendered as departure in the King James Version does not infer the physical departure of the Church. In latter translations, the ambiguity is cleared up and apostesia is translated for what it is - apostacy (NASB).

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has the following:
“Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2 Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt 24:11-12).”—p.89

But this event occurs in a pre-trib setting.

Well if you can't read what I wrote, how should I trust you to interpret what Paul wrote?

Paul said Jesus wouldn't come and the Rapture doesn't happen UNTIL the apostacy occurs and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

Saying it occurs in a "pre-trib setting" is just wishful thinking made up out of whole cloth - it just isn't there.

I ask you ,..were in the Pauline letters does it hint that there will be a falling away from the faith?
It does not,...and there is a indication that Strong's dictionary is incorrect in that interpretation.

Strong's Concordance is not a translation of the Bible nor is it intended as a translation tool. The use of Strong's numbers is not a substitute for professional translation of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English by those with formal training in ancient languages and the literature of the cultures in which the Bible was written.

Since Strong's Concordance identifies the original words in Hebrew and Greek, Strong's Numbers are sometimes misinterpreted by those without adequate training to change the Bible from its accurate meaning simply by taking the words out of cultural context. The use of Strong's numbers does not consider figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, common phrases, cultural references, references to historical events, or alternate meanings used by those of the time period to express their thoughts in their own language at the time. As such, professionals and amateurs alike must consult a number of contextual tools to reconstruct these cultural backgrounds. Many scholarly Greek and Hebrew Lexicons (e.g., Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Dictionary, and Vine's Bible Dictionary) also use Strong's numbers for cross-referencing, encouraging hermeneutical approaches to study.

The Lord states that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.
Again,..for one to say that a saved person can fall away from the faith,..as in lose their salvation goes against and contradicts scripture.

You Quote:
Paul said Jesus wouldn't come and the Rapture doesn't happen UNTIL the apostacy occurs and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

My Reply:
No,..your interpretation is incorrect here.
I ask you,....where do you see anything indicating a falling away in the following scripture?
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

Liddell and Scott and TDNT suggest that APOSTASIA is a later construction for another noun APOSTASIS. The reason I ask this is related to the argument about APOSTASIA as the Rapture in 2 Thess 2:3. Those who argue this position point to the fact that APOSTASIA did have the meaning of "spatial departure" in classical Greek. For APOSTASIA itself LSJ lists only one reference for "spatial departure," and this is from the 6th century A.D. Apparently, the argument that APOSTASIA meant "spatial departure" in the classical period comes from its association with APOSTASIS. Is APOSTASIA more than just a different way to spell APOSTASIS--I assume so. The article in TDNT also says APOSTASIA is a later construction for APOSTASIS, but in the discussion seems to suggest that have a slightly different meaning. Is it legitimate to say that the later APOSTASIA is fully equivalent to the earlier APOSTASIS?
Liddell & Scott (apostasis): --(revolt / departure)

...

apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to fall away".
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to depart" from a person, place, or thing.
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean a "change" in that a defection/apostasy is a change of heart, and the rapture is a change.
apostasia and metatithemi (in their related words, metathesis & aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

Enoch was raptured. Metatithemi. Apostasia has much in common with metatithemi (used to describe Enoch's rapture).
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/apostasia.htm
The word .."Rebellion" is an incorrect interpretation.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent during the tribulation(Daniels 70th week)
But He is not indwelling believers, as He did prior to Daniels 70th week.
The Holy Spirits new task began on the Day of Pentecost and ends when the "Fullness of the Gentiles" have come in.

When one weighs the scales, based on the text, and the harmonic flow of scripture as a whole in the Word of God,...there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit is the "Restrainer"

[benny balerio]

3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.
If the Bride were still on the earth,...why is it that only 144,000 were sealed?
Why is it pointing out that the only servants of God on the earth are only those coming from the twelve tribes of Israel?

You are confusing the Firstfruits with the Harvest: they are not the same.

The 144,000 are Jesus' Army as per Joel 2 and Revelation 19.

You Quote:
You are confusing the Firstfruits with the Harvest: they are not the same

My Reply:
In Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the gathering of the first fruits which were offered as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God.

It proceeded with the general harvest. But not all was taken in this harvest. Some of the crop was left in the field to be gathered by the poor and the needy. This was called the gleanings (Leviticus 19:9-10).

Using this imagery, the Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

But there is a third and final stage to this resurrection of the righteous. It is the gleanings, and it occurs at the end of the Tribulation when the Lord's Second Coming takes place. At that time two final groups of the righteous will be resurrected: 1) the Tribulation martyrs (Revelation 20:4), and 2) the Old Testament saints (Dan 12:2).

Some people are startled by the thought that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the end of the Tribulation. But keep in mind that the Rapture is a promise to the Church, and the Church only. Also, the book of Daniel makes it clear that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress" (Daniel 12:1-2).

So the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, occurs in three stages, beginning with Christ, continuing with the Church at the Rapture, and culminating with the Tribulation martyrs and the Old Testament saints at the return of Jesus.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/reagan/dr8.html


You Quote:
The 144,000 are Jesus' Army as per Joel 2 and Revelation 19

My Reply:
Joel 2 is not about the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel,...it my friend is about the following:

Joe 2:3 A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yes, and none has escaped [the ravages of the devouring hordes].

My Reply:
For a long time before May 14, 1948 and in the early days when Israel was declared a nation,...the Land was desolate and barren.
But it was prophesied that Israel would become like the garden of Eden.
Ezekiel 36:35 (New King James Version)
35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’

Also Joel 2;16 says:
Let the bridegroom leave his room

and the bride her chamber.

So it is at the time just moments before this invasion of Israel in the Ezekial 38 battle when the Rapture of the Bride would occur.

Also,...Joel 2;20
20“I will drive the northern army far from you,

pushing it into a parched and barren land,

with its front columns going into the eastern seab

and those in the rear into the western sea.c

And its stench will go up;

its smell will rise.”

This is a geographical description of Russia and surrounding nations.
When one reads Ezekial 38;15 King James Amplified bible,....It states that it is the power from the utter most north that attacks Israel.
If you were to draw a line beginning with Jerusalem drawing due north not moving a hair space to the left or right,...you will find that you have drawn a line straight thru Moscow Russia center for center!
Ezekial 39;11
Talks about that bad smell that you read here in Joel 2;20

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers : and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

When you read Ezekial 38;18-20
This is when the Day of the Lord begins, that continues throughout all of Daniels 70th week the Time of Jacobs trouble.
We all know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the air just prior to the beginning Day of The Lord.
Ezekial 38;18-20
which matches perfectly with revelation 6;14-17, Isaiah 2;19,
Joel 2
Take notice that this Ezekial 38 battle occurs when Israel and the World believes that they are dwelling safely.

Now,..the Lord could have described the flood in detail,...BUT! He did not! Instead He chose to point out a scenerio that they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.Just as the world was saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.(i Thessalonians 5;3)Verse 4;16-17 occurs "BEFORE" verse 5;3
Ezekial 38...describes that the world was living in peace and Israel and the world was not expecting an attack against Israel which is also the time that God's FURY came up in His face, Gods Wrath had Been activated by this attack..It is the beginning of the "Day of the Lord"
The two women grinding at the mill,..a description of normal life,..The Lord added this description to make sure all the einstein's and little rose peddles, of the world clearly got the picture that He intended


What I am pointing out is that the Day of the Lord begins with Exekial 38;18-20....which matches with revelation 6;14-17.....and joel 2 and that the rapture(Caught Up) occurs just before Gods Wrath(Look at above description again)

Jesus is coming to take us home people,...Get Ready,..Whoo Hoo!

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Not to change the subject or anything but....

as to the OP question- When is the rapture??

I say hopefully soon....

As to the timing of events, everyone seems to think scripture is so clear about it being when they think it is, but the fact remains that if it were so obvious then there would be no debate about it. I happen to believe in a pre-trib rapture and have explained why I believe scripture supports this idea. But as we all do, there is some speculation involved in the interpretation of scripture which helps me arrive at my conclusions. Though I still contend that certain scriptures do appear to rule out certain views regarding the timing of some of the end times events. In any case we must all look critically at how we interpret scripture, we all, myself included, look at things from the foundation of what we want to believe is true. In order to be convinced or to convince others you have to ask the "what if?" question and follow it logically through the scriptures. "What if"- what he or she says is true? "What if"- I am wrong in my understanding? We need to step off our foundation sometimes and examine what others say and how it truly lines up with scriptures. I see an awful lot of speculation going on in this thread that is pro-ported as fact. Let's be honest with each other, and realize that our foundation influences our interpretation. Let's be honest about what is fact and what isn't. This whole pretext and actual context business.... what is pro-ported as "actual context" is not actual context at all, it is merely another supposition based on actual context. Actual context is the actual scripture-word for word, not what you believe it is saying.

Just throwing in my two cents.

RT

1 Thessalonians 5;4 is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the rapture.
With that thought in mind,...I ask you,...what is it that you disagree with in the following link?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=59505&p=540029#p540029

Hi Benny, I am not sure why you ask this question. I actually agree with you on many points you make, I was only saying that all of us, no matter what side of the rapture issue we are on, must realize that our belief in a certain timing for prophetic events influences the way we view scripture. For those of us who have held different views at various times, it's easy to see how this idea is true, when I believed in a mid trib rapture view- that belief influenced how I interpreted scripture. Looking back I can see that was true, I now see that scripture can and does support a pre-trib rapture view, and I have to admit to myself, that my belief in that influences how I read the scriptures. That's all I was trying to say.

The passage you quoted demonstrates what I am trying to say:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

You say it is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the "rapture". But the actual context is not talking about the rapture, but of the "day of the Lord". Now you can interpret the day of the Lord and the rapture as the same event, but that is not explicit in the passage. What this passage says to me is that the day of the Lord won't overtake us like a thief because we are sons of the day,destined for salvation and not wrath. That salvation as I interpret it is what is spoken of in the preceding passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That salvation is the resurrection/rapture. Since we are not destined for wrath, but salvation- the rapture must happen before the wrath comes. I interpret the "wrath" as synonymous to the "day of the Lord". So those who are in Christ are resurrected/caught up before the "day of the Lord" or before wrath.

I personally don't see anything in either passage that gives us any indication of "general time era of the rapture", but there is some indication for the general timing for the day of the Lord.. "while they (the sons of darkness) are saying "peace and safety", it will come upon them. This may or may not give us an indication as to when the rapture will occur- depending on what your foundation is. You have the belief that the rapture and the day of the Lord happen at the same time. This is the point I am trying to make.

It's not wrong to have ideas regarding interpretation of prophecy that contradict others. Prophecy is difficult to understand and is not spelled out as clearly as you and I would like to believe. In sharing our ideas we learn and grow in understanding. I think debate is a wonderful impetus to drive us to seek clearer understanding by searching the scriptures, various views and ideas drive us to the word for answers, and in seeking for clearer understanding, we need to question not only the views of others but also our own. We need to be willing to ask ourselves if we are seeing the word correctly? Is there something I might be missing that someone else has hit upon? For the most part I think this happens often here at FP, which is great when it does. But when people make claims that their ideas are clear cut and scriptural fact, it has the effect of turning people off to what they are trying to say. I guess when it comes down to it's not our differing ideas themselves that bother me, it's the words in which we choose to frame our ideas in that do. They can have attached to them a sense of indignation, and arrogance. When we approach the handling of the prophetic word, we should come to each other with a sense of humility rather than a sense that we are the only one who has it all rightly divided.

I am not pointing at you in particular Benny or anyone else, I myself am guilty, I point to all of us.

RT

[benny balerio]

Not to change the subject or anything but....

as to the OP question- When is the rapture??

I say hopefully soon....

As to the timing of events, everyone seems to think scripture is so clear about it being when they think it is, but the fact remains that if it were so obvious then there would be no debate about it. I happen to believe in a pre-trib rapture and have explained why I believe scripture supports this idea. But as we all do, there is some speculation involved in the interpretation of scripture which helps me arrive at my conclusions. Though I still contend that certain scriptures do appear to rule out certain views regarding the timing of some of the end times events. In any case we must all look critically at how we interpret scripture, we all, myself included, look at things from the foundation of what we want to believe is true. In order to be convinced or to convince others you have to ask the "what if?" question and follow it logically through the scriptures. "What if"- what he or she says is true? "What if"- I am wrong in my understanding? We need to step off our foundation sometimes and examine what others say and how it truly lines up with scriptures. I see an awful lot of speculation going on in this thread that is pro-ported as fact. Let's be honest with each other, and realize that our foundation influences our interpretation. Let's be honest about what is fact and what isn't. This whole pretext and actual context business.... what is pro-ported as "actual context" is not actual context at all, it is merely another supposition based on actual context. Actual context is the actual scripture-word for word, not what you believe it is saying.

Just throwing in my two cents.

RT

1 Thessalonians 5;4 is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the rapture.
With that thought in mind,...I ask you,...what is it that you disagree with in the following link?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=59505&p=540029#p540029

Hi Benny, I am not sure why you ask this question. I actually agree with you on many points you make, I was only saying that all of us, no matter what side of the rapture issue we are on, must realize that our belief in a certain timing for prophetic events influences the way we view scripture. For those of us who have held different views at various times, it's easy to see how this idea is true, when I believed in a mid trib rapture view- that belief influenced how I interpreted scripture. Looking back I can see that was true, I now see that scripture can and does support a pre-trib rapture view, and I have to admit to myself, that my belief in that influences how I read the scriptures. That's all I was trying to say.

The passage you quoted demonstrates what I am trying to say:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

You say it is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the "rapture". But the actual context is not talking about the rapture, but of the "day of the Lord". Now you can interpret the day of the Lord and the rapture as the same event, but that is not explicit in the passage. What this passage says to me is that the day of the Lord won't overtake us like a thief because we are sons of the day,destined for salvation and not wrath. That salvation as I interpret it is what is spoken of in the preceding passage:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That salvation is the resurrection/rapture. Since we are not destined for wrath, but salvation- the rapture must happen before the wrath comes. I interpret the "wrath" as synonymous to the "day of the Lord". So those who are in Christ are resurrected/caught up before the "day of the Lord" or before wrath.

I personally don't see anything in either passage that gives us any indication of "general time era of the rapture", but there is some indication for the general timing for the day of the Lord.. "while they (the sons of darkness) are saying "peace and safety", it will come upon them. This may or may not give us an indication as to when the rapture will occur- depending on what your foundation is. You have the belief that the rapture and the day of the Lord happen at the same time. This is the point I am trying to make.

It's not wrong to have ideas regarding interpretation of prophecy that contradict others. Prophecy is difficult to understand and is not spelled out as clearly as you and I would like to believe. In sharing our ideas we learn and grow in understanding. I think debate is a wonderful impetus to drive us to seek clearer understanding by searching the scriptures, various views and ideas drive us to the word for answers, and in seeking for clearer understanding, we need to question not only the views of others but also our own. We need to be willing to ask ourselves if we are seeing the word correctly? Is there something I might be missing that someone else has hit upon? For the most part I think this happens often here at FP, which is great when it does. But when people make claims that their ideas are clear cut and scriptural fact, it has the effect of turning people off to what they are trying to say. I guess when it comes down to it's not our differing ideas themselves that bother me, it's the words in which we choose to frame our ideas in that do. They can have attached to them a sense of indignation, and arrogance. When we approach the handling of the prophetic word, we should come to each other with a sense of humility rather than a sense that we are the only one who has it all rightly divided.

I am not pointing at you in particular Benny or anyone else, I myself am guilty, I point to all of us.

RT

You Quote:
You say it is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the "rapture". But the actual context is not talking about the rapture, but of the "day of the Lord". Now you can interpret the day of the Lord and the rapture as the same event, but that is not explicit in the passage. What this passage says to me is that the day of the Lord won't overtake us like a thief because we are sons of the day,destined for salvation and not wrath. That salvation as I interpret it is what is spoken of in the preceding passage:

My Reply:
Yes ,..I am very aware that it is refering to the Day of the Lord,...And as you have pointed out,...and as I have made clear many times in these debates,....The Day of the Lord and the Wrath of God begin at the same time.
And you and I very well know that we the Bride are removed from this earth prior to the Day of the Lord/Wrath of God
1 thessalonians 1;10
I enjoy your posts,..they touch my heart,...God bless you my Friend.

Oops!,.....Sorry RT,..but I overlooked your statement here:
You Quote:
You have the belief that the rapture and the day of the Lord happen at the same time.

My Reply:
No RT,...I do not believe that the Rapture and the Day of the Lord occurs at the same time.
But they are fairly close together.

The bible very much gives us clues as to the general time era of the rapture too.
I have made that clear in the link that I have provided you.
But the link that I provided,..it strongly indicates that we leave before this coming war.

It's a win-win situation,..because if I am wrong about psalms 83;3..and if we find that we are still here after the war,..then we still win because we are still around to say..."I told you so"
about Isaiah 17;1 and Psalms 83,..Wow!..talk about a great witnessing tool!!!

We already know that once this coming war is over,....that a false peace will come,...and that this is a requirement for Ezekiel 38.....and there is not the slightest doubt that the Bride is gone prior to Ezekiel 38.

But Isaiah 17;1/psalms 83 is so tremendous a game changer in the world as we know it,..that it only makes sense that we are gone before this war comes to pass.

Hold on tight my friend,..we are almost out of here!!!

[Exit40]

I have a question. If I don't believe in a pre trib rapture, will I be left behind ?

God Bless

David

[Jericho]

I have a question. If I don't believe in a pre trib rapture, will I be left behind ?

God Bless

David

In a word, no.

[benny balerio]

I have a question. If I don't believe in a pre trib rapture, will I be left behind ?

God Bless

David

13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

God Bless you David

[Exit40]

Thank you Benny, and God Bless you too. The reason I ask is some time ago I was told by a few zealots that my disbelief would cause me to lose my salvation and therefore not be raptured and most likely be killed by God's wrath. I was wondering if this was a part of the pre trib theory or not.

God Bless

David

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Thank you Benny, and God Bless you too. The reason I ask is some time ago I was told by a few zealots that my disbelief would cause me to lose my salvation and therefore not be raptured and most likely be killed by God's wrath. I was wondering if this was a part of the pre trib theory or not.

God Bless

David

Here's another question: If I believe in a pre-trib rapture and it turns out I'm wrong, am I destined to fall away from the faith?

I have had others (zealots) insinuate that because I believe in a pre-trib rapture , I am deluded believing a lie and therefore when the rapture fails to happen before the 70th week I am likely to fall away from My faith.

I personally do not think our rapture view is a measure of our faith in Christ, we all believe that He is coming again, we all believe that we will live together with Him for eternity, we all share hope in Christ and salvation in Him. It is our faith and trust in Him that saves us, not our views concerning timing of the rapture. I look forward to someday meeting all those here at FP. Apart from our differences and our debates about prophecy, I am certain that most here share in the love of our Savior Jesus Christ, and we would do well to remember that when we are in discussions where we disagree with one another. I find debate stimulating and even fun,and yes, sometimes frustrating, but I always tell myself that the person on the other side of that screen, is very likely just as much a follower of Christ as I am. We are members of the same body-Christ, and our rapture views should not cause us to question one another's faith in Christ. That is my point, that we don't take ourselves too seriously, that we give each other the benefit of the doubt and show respect and love in our words.

I am happy to be acquainted with you David and Benny and others, as fellow believers in Christ, and it is always a pleasure to share ideas, even when we don't see eye to eye.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

My reply:
No RT,...I do not believe that the Rapture and the Day of the Lord occurs at the same time.
But they are fairly close together.

The bible very much gives us clues as to the general time era of the rapture too.
I have made that clear in the link that I have provided you.
But the link that I provided,..it strongly indicates that we leave before this coming war.

It's a win-win situation,..because if I am wrong about psalms 83;3..and if we find that we are still here after the war,..then we still win because we are still around to say..."I told you so"
about Isaiah 17;1 and Psalms 83,..Wow!..talk about a great witnessing tool!!!

We already know that once this coming war is over,....that a false peace will come,...and that this is a requirement for Ezekiel 38.....and there is not the slightest doubt that the Bride is gone prior to Ezekiel 38.

But Isaiah 17;1/psalms 83 is so tremendous a game changer in the world as we know it,..that it only makes sense that we are gone before this war comes to pass.

Hold on tight my friend,..we are almost out of here!!!

Hello Benny,

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying---sorry about that. I definitely agree with you that the day is close at hand, and that we the body of Christ will not be here when Ezekiel 38 takes place. I do think there will be some middle eastern war though that could happen prior to or coincident with our "departure"

Things sure do appear to be lining up, the stage is being set before our eyes. It is exciting and sobering at the same time. All we can do is watch and wait and occupy ourselves with the work of Christ until he comes to call us out. I am expectantly watching with you!

God Bless

RT

[Exit40]

Hi RT. I hope I didn't cause any offense. Benny's loving response was a reassurance for me, as is yours. I agree, our rapture belief has no bearing on our Salvation, which lies in Christ.

God Bless You

David

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi RT. I hope I didn't cause any offense. Benny's loving response was a reassurance for me, as is yours. I agree, our rapture belief has no bearing on our Salvation, which lies in Christ.

God Bless You

David

No- not at all, just that when you posed your question it made me think about how others sometimes see pre-tribbers, so I just threw it out there, with no offense taken whatsoever. Sorry if it seemed that way.

edited to add this quote, that justifies my question, this is quoted form another prophecy blog

Dear Friends in Christ,

The following material from two web sites is on the great lie that many Christians believe and may lead to their exclusion from the kingdom until the completion of the first half of the Tribulation to experience trials that will induce spiritual maturity, at last.

It is important to us all that we understand and live with a true knowledge of the great lie that exists throughout organized Christianity, but is not supported by Scripture. This lie keeps many immature Christians from even seeking to perform works from their faith towards those in need in our world.

Dear friends, we need to become spiritually mature in our faith, if we are not yet there, as soon as possible, before it is too late. Make it your goal to provide as much support, prayer and gifts to those in need, as a demonstration of what true Christian living is about. I pray that every reader will hear my message and give it consideration.

-------------

The following quote is from an article that can be read after reading the Lyn Mize article below for further details from another viewpoint, arriving at the identical conclusion: most Christians are immature in their faith and will not be invited into the Millennial kingdom until they are matured by passing through the first half of the Tribulation.

"Nothing short of Tribulation horrors will shock the main mass of the
converted into maturity at last."

Pure hogwash!! Belief in a pre-trib rapture does not cause someone to remain immature in their faith.


RT

[Tevye]

Camping Admits Rapture Prediction 'A Mistake'
Ninety-year-old Harold Camping predicted that the world would come to an end
on May 21, 2011. And then again on October 21, 2011.

And while it has been clear for months that the world, in fact, did not end
on either date, Camping has finally issued an official statement admitting the mistake.

According to "When is the Rapture?," an article written by Camping, the Rapture
is the end of the world and happens when "our Lord comes to judge the world."

On the day of the Rapture, "the believers in Christ who have not experienced physical death will be changed
into their glorified bodies," Camping wrote. "At that time, they will be caught up in the air to be with Christ."
link...Family Radio will not announce a new prediction for the end of the world.

"We also openly acknowledge that we have no new evidence pointing to another date for the end of the world.
Though many dates are circulating, Family Radio has no interest in even considering another date. God has humbled us
through the events of May 21, to continue to even more fervently search the Scriptures (the Bible), not to find dates,
but to be more faithful in our understanding."

[shorttribber]

Pure hogwash!! Belief in a pre-trib rapture does not cause someone to remain immature in their faith.

[benny balerio]

Camping Admits Rapture Prediction 'A Mistake'
Ninety-year-old Harold Camping predicted that the world would come to an end
on May 21, 2011. And then again on October 21, 2011.

And while it has been clear for months that the world, in fact, did not end
on either date, Camping has finally issued an official statement admitting the mistake.

According to "When is the Rapture?," an article written by Camping, the Rapture
is the end of the world and happens when "our Lord comes to judge the world."

On the day of the Rapture, "the believers in Christ who have not experienced physical death will be changed
into their glorified bodies," Camping wrote. "At that time, they will be caught up in the air to be with Christ."
link...Family Radio will not announce a new prediction for the end of the world.

"We also openly acknowledge that we have no new evidence pointing to another date for the end of the world.
Though many dates are circulating, Family Radio has no interest in even considering another date. God has humbled us
through the events of May 21, to continue to even more fervently search the Scriptures (the Bible), not to find dates,
but to be more faithful in our understanding."

There is no doubt that Harold Camping has really went out in left field and that he should have known better to have attempted to set dates.
But you Tevye,...have got me curious as to why you have posted this article.
It seems to me this article should have been placed in the "What You Think about the News" section.
Is there a point that you are trying to convey here?......Just curious.

[Tevye]

Hi Benny,
I thought it would relate well in response to the post of origin
(hoping for leaders who are in error to someday walk upon the humble path toward His truth)
and for us all to embrace the idea, as the people of Family Radio had said they would do:
"to be more faithful in our understanding."

[Exit40]

"We also openly acknowledge that we have no new evidence pointing to another date for the end of the world.
Though many dates are circulating, Family Radio has no interest in even considering another date.

Sounds like they have given up on a rapture date.

God Bless

David

[MarkT]

The Holy Spirit indwells every believer today,...this indwelling of the Holy spirit inside the believer did not occur prior to the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:2

The Lord said that He would never leave nor forsake us.

John 14:18

When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way,..He will take the Bride to heaven.

NOT TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE.

In fact, it is entire conjecture that the "one" is the Holy Spirit... Paul did not name who this Spirit is, and as shown in Scripture (1Ki 22:22-23) God can use all sorts of Spirits. The four horsemen are Spirits as well who go out into the world to do the Father's Will (Zec 6:5). We can know there is a Spirit who "stands in the midst" (restraining is translation conclusion; the original language doesn't go that far), but we don't know who that Spirit is. We have all we need to know: God is in charge. He directs the timing of the end.

The anti christ nor the false prophet can do nothing,..not until the Bride who is indwelt by the holy spirit has been removed.

Actually, we don't know the timing for the rise of the anti-Christ coming up from the inner ranks of the world leaders who are all aligned agaiunst Christ. We don't know the timing concerning the foretold deadly wound and his recovery except that it comes before the midpoint abomination set up by the false prophet.

Likewise, we don't know the timing of the removal of the "one" in regards to the false prophets use of nuclear weapons - and today Israel is really close to doing that, but it will not happen until Israel is in the one 'seven' and that breach of the covenant Israel is prevailed upon to agree will be the impetus for the Gog/Magog invasion which directly leads to the surrounding of Jerusalem by the King of the North.

We don't know exactly when the "one" is removed from the midst, but a reasonable guess would be before the midpoint abomination which will make exactly "who" the anti-Christ is, perfectly clear to even otherwise uninterested Christians. Those who are interested, who play "pin the tail on the anti-Christ" (I chuckle with some of the wild guesses) might figure it out before hand and be wise, but in the end, his actions will remove all doubt when we are faced with the Daniel test of worship or die.

And why did Jesus warn of this? Because we will face it.
Why did Jesus tell us that if we try to save our life we will lose it? Because that can happen.
Why did Jesus tell us that if we lose our life we will gain it for eternity? To give us courage.
Why did Jesus tell the "good" Church of Philadelphia to endure patiently? Because the "test" is coming.
Why are we told not to chase "Jesus" in inner rooms or out in the desert? Because faith will weaken under the GT.
Why are we told to endure patiently right before the Harvest? So we are not like the five foolish virgins who "buy" oil.

Pre-Trib is comfortable: you will not suffer oppression or tribulation. Unfortunately, it isn't in the Bible.

Jn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

And He's coming back for us, on the clouds, after the midpoint abomination and after the Great Tribulation on the Day of the Lord - before His Wrath comes to the tares left in the field after we are safely in Heaven.

[benny balerio]

The Holy Spirit indwells every believer today,...this indwelling of the Holy spirit inside the believer did not occur prior to the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:2

The Lord said that He would never leave nor forsake us.

John 14:18

When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way,..He will take the Bride to heaven.

NOT TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE.

In fact, it is entire conjecture that the "one" is the Holy Spirit... Paul did not name who this Spirit is, and as shown in Scripture (1Ki 22:22-23) God can use all sorts of Spirits. The four horsemen are Spirits as well who go out into the world to do the Father's Will (Zec 6:5). We can know there is a Spirit who "stands in the midst" (restraining is translation conclusion; the original language doesn't go that far), but we don't know who that Spirit is. We have all we need to know: God is in charge. He directs the timing of the end.

The anti christ nor the false prophet can do nothing,..not until the Bride who is indwelt by the holy spirit has been removed.

Actually, we don't know the timing for the rise of the anti-Christ coming up from the inner ranks of the world leaders who are all aligned agaiunst Christ. We don't know the timing concerning the foretold deadly wound and his recovery except that it comes before the midpoint abomination set up by the false prophet.

Likewise, we don't know the timing of the removal of the "one" in regards to the false prophets use of nuclear weapons - and today Israel is really close to doing that, but it will not happen until Israel is in the one 'seven' and that breach of the covenant Israel is prevailed upon to agree will be the impetus for the Gog/Magog invasion which directly leads to the surrounding of Jerusalem by the King of the North.

We don't know exactly when the "one" is removed from the midst, but a reasonable guess would be before the midpoint abomination which will make exactly "who" the anti-Christ is, perfectly clear to even otherwise uninterested Christians. Those who are interested, who play "pin the tail on the anti-Christ" (I chuckle with some of the wild guesses) might figure it out before hand and be wise, but in the end, his actions will remove all doubt when we are faced with the Daniel test of worship or die.

And why did Jesus warn of this? Because we will face it.
Why did Jesus tell us that if we try to save our life we will lose it? Because that can happen.
Why did Jesus tell us that if we lose our life we will gain it for eternity? To give us courage.
Why did Jesus tell the "good" Church of Philadelphia to endure patiently? Because the "test" is coming.
Why are we told not to chase "Jesus" in inner rooms or out in the desert? Because faith will weaken under the GT.
Why are we told to endure patiently right before the Harvest? So we are not like the five foolish virgins who "buy" oil.

Pre-Trib is comfortable: you will not suffer oppression or tribulation. Unfortunately, it isn't in the Bible.

Jn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

And He's coming back for us, on the clouds, after the midpoint abomination and after the Great Tribulation on the Day of the Lord - before His Wrath comes to the tares left in the field after we are safely in Heaven.

You Quote:
When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way,..He will take the Bride to heaven.
NOT TO BE FOUND ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE.

In fact, it is entire conjecture that the "one" is the Holy Spirit... Paul did not name who this Spirit is, and as shown in Scripture (1Ki 22:22-23) God can use all sorts of Spirits. The four horsemen are Spirits as well who go out into the world to do the Father's Will (Zec 6:5). We can know there is a Spirit who "stands in the midst" (restraining is translation conclusion; the original language doesn't go that far), but we don't know who that Spirit is. We have all we need to know: God is in charge. He directs the timing of the end.

My Reply:
Actually,..it is in the bible.
Process of elimination.
Who is it that can restrain evil globally?
Only the Holy Spirit can do this fore He is omnipresent.
Who do you believe is restraining the anti christ at this very moment?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Who is it that can restrain evil globally?

Therein is the crux of the matter IMO.

Though I believe it is more than just the Holy Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit acting through the body of Christ. Right now the church acts as a restraining force against lawlessness or sin, because we are in-dwelled with the Holy Spirit, whose job it is to convict the world of sin. This happens through us, those to whom the Holy Spirit was given. Think of lawlessness as darkness, and righteousness as the light. The light restrains darkness as long as it is shining, it exposes the deeds done in darkness and diminishes its effect on earth. But when the light is removed then darkness floods in to take its place.

The opposite of lawlessness is lawfulness. What is it that keeps sin at bay- it is the word of God- that is the law against rebellion- darkness-lawlessness. Jesus is the word of God, therefore- we as His body are the emissaries of His word, we are the light - the lamp that is His word, which lives in and through us to restrain the works of lawlessness on earth. It is the church that is removed from restraining. The Holy Spirit will still work among mankind on earth, but just not in the same way He does now, through the body of Christ-which is the church.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

And why did Jesus warn of this? Because we will face it.
Why did Jesus tell us that if we try to save our life we will lose it? Because that can happen.
Why did Jesus tell us that if we lose our life we will gain it for eternity? To give us courage.
Why did Jesus tell the "good" Church of Philadelphia to endure patiently? Because the "test" is coming.
Why are we told not to chase "Jesus" in inner rooms or out in the desert? Because faith will weaken under the GT.
Why are we told to endure patiently right before the Harvest? So we are not like the five foolish virgins who "buy" oil.

Pre-Trib is comfortable: you will not suffer oppression or tribulation. Unfortunately, it isn't in the Bible.

Jn 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Pre-trib has nothing to do with whether or not we suffer oppression or tribulation. Being a true believer in Christ is sometimes comfortable and sometimes very difficult. The point is that we all at some point in our lives as believers do suffer for our faith, if you haven't yet, just wait you will!

Not everyone is faced with trials to the point of death, but some are, and have suffered and died as martyrs and will continue to. This idea that being comfortable is somehow wrong or that we must face the test of martyrdom in order to be a true believer is just wrong. Most of the world does hate true believers right now, and if they had the chance, many would make martyrs of us all. But thankfully at least for the time being we can enjoy freedom to worship and serve our Lord. It may not always be the case in our country, we could lose these freedoms long before the "tribulation" ever comes. Needless to say, tribulation and testing comes in many forms, and I for one have experienced very difficult trials because of my faith. I hope I never am faced with martyrdom, but if that day should come, I trust that Jesus will give me the grace and strength to see it through. Giving up our life is not necessarily just laying it down in death. We give up our life when we nail our flesh to the cross daily, by walking in the Spirit. Will every believer die a martyrs death? No of course not, many believers have lived and died by other means than martyrdom. Was their faith tested? did they endure oppression and tribulation and persecution?

RT

[MarkT]

The tribulation these admonishments are in reference to in the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation all have to do with the Great Tribulaiton of the end times, and the end times respectively.

We are addressed specifically to keep the faith, remain steadfast, and endure patiently (hypomeno) in regards to the events of the one 'seven.'

The Bible is pretty succinct. If we need to know something: it's there.

[MarkT]

The trib saint must provide evidence of their faith by works.

There is no such thing in the Bible as a "trib saint." That is a term manufactured and used exclusively by Pre-Trib.

The point of remaining steadfast (hypomeno) is the same for the Christian today as the martyr of the Great Tribulation: the same Grace is at work for enduring faith.

In the coming age, men on Earth will look up into the sky and see the New Jerusalem, home of the Church, in orbit nearby.

Where stands it written? - that is the motto of the (Swedish) Evangelical Free Church and I like it because it makes them like the Bereans, whom I admire.

Please provide Scriptural proof. That's a pretty high standard.

revelation 21:1-14

Revelation 21:1-14 does not say men on earth will look up into the sky and see the New Jerusalem.

You did not give a Scriptural reference for what you attested. This will become a pattern for your responses...

[MarkT]

That's not quite what the Bible has to say about the people left after the Harvest: "...their deeds will follow them."

Here the Lord admonished Tribulation believers to obey the Commandments and remain faithful, knowing that those who refuse the mark will either be martyred or forced out of the world's economic system, denied access to life's necessities. Those who die for their faith will be blessed, because their ordeal will be over.

The Elect are going to be decimated. Jesus said we would be handed over.
Jesus said the end will come before all the Elect are wiped out.
After the Elect are gathered up, the Two Witnesses remain behind. Any other of the Elect remaining behind will be martyred.
As each of us will have to account for ourselves, what they do will in keeping the faith will be a testament to them.

The ones left behind are no different than the Church which is taken up in the Harvest of Rev 14 except for the circumstances in which their faith will be tested.

There is no such thing as "tribulation believers." Either you believe or you don't. We are united in Christ. In this age, there is one way to Heaven.

Rev. 16:15 - If you're familiar with the symbolic reference to clothing, you know what this verse means. If not, let's review it.

Figuratively, you can make the Bible say anything.

In a literal sense, the Remnant Jews who fled at the midpoint must be ready to move at a moment's notice.

Saying clothing is salvation is not applicable, because those without clothing still are cared for. Without Salvation, a person who has turned their back on Jesus by taking the mark of the beast (failing the test of faith) will not be cared for.

Your figurative explanation falls apart by the very words Jesus reveals - for the naked are still shepherded. So much for your clothing analogies...

Negative, this call is the Church not to be like the five foolish virgins. Verse 12 does not happen in a vacuum. It comes right before the Harvest.

Rev. 16:15 implies that Tribulation believers are responsible for remaining steadfast in their faith to avoid losing their salvation. Matt. 25:8 agrees, telling us that all 10 virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning, but the five foolish ones didn’t have enough to carry them through. Remember, all 10 virgins are caught sleeping when He returns. It’s the oil that distinguishes one group from the other, not their behavior.

Rev 16 doesn't apply.

In Matthew, the very act of buying physical oil means the five foolish virgins had to get the mark of the beast.

It is a literal warning. While oil can be figuratively applied to the fuel for prayer, it is not distinguishing characteristic between the wise and the foolish. What distinguishes them is what the foolish did; you cannot take the mark of the beast and be admitted to Heaven no matter what you believe.

Post-Rapture - this describes the duty of the Remnant Jews to be at the ready to move as various desolations imperil their existence.

Do you have a point here?

This counts as a non-response.

Nope. Animal sacrifice is a Millennium condition. I don't know of any verse/passage which foretells of the cleansing of the Temple when Jesus arrives there on the Day of the Lord (post-Rapture). It might be, I just don't have any knowledge that that is written.

At the end of the 490 years, the holy of holies in the Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem will be anointed once again for God’s service (cf other prophecies of the future Temple - Joel 3:18, Is 60:7, Jer 33:20, 21, 22, Ezek 37:26, 27, 28).

Your Scriptural references don't indicate a cleansing of the Temple.

Once again, you have failed to back up your assertions with Scripture.

[MarkT]

Nope!

The sun/moon/star event happens first heralding the Day of the Lord.
The sign of the Son of Man (the scrolling of the sky) happens after that.
Then Jesus arrives on the clouds and gathers us up.

That is what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. We know what you think of that. Denial is hardly recognized by those exercising it.

So basicly ,..you are claiming that a rapture of the dead and alive is to occur moments before the Lord descends on mount olivet?

Nope.

The sixth Seal reveals the earthquake happens before the 144,000 and the gathering of the Great Multitude occurs.

Jesus' parousia happens bookend to His Ascension. He will return as He left - right to the spot.
And He will split the Mount of Olives North-South. Remnant Jews will flee from Jerusalem through the newly hewn cleft to join those from Judea who fled previously.'

• From Mount Zion, a new place because of the geographical change, Jesus musters the 144,000.
  
• Then the Dead in Christ are risen. (Not an earthly event - but from the first Heaven)
• Then Jesus comes with them on the clouds to gather the Elect who have survived the Great Tribulation.
• Then Jesus will deliver this Great Multitude to the third Heaven of the Father's presence.
  
• Then Jesus comes back to scourge Israel of its idolatry.
• Joel 2 describes the Wrath of God taking over Jerusalem.
• Ezekiel 9 takes place at this time in the Temple.
• The first Trumpet sounds and the Day of the Lord's Wrath comes upon the wicked.

It is a Day

When you say that the Day of the Lord is a day,..I assume that you are claiming that it is only a 24 hour period.
This of course, is an incorrect interpretation on your part.

That would be an incorrect interpretation on your part.

Everything I've listed can happen on one Jewish day which begins at sundown by the way...

[mrgravyard49]

I know this is a debate area but the Rapture has been debated most likely 2000 years. So sort of silly trying to change others opinion when we know they cant be changed. We all believe what we believe..
It will happen when it happens and when it does Oh How Great we will feel....

[benny balerio]

The trib saint must provide evidence of their faith by works.

There is no such thing in the Bible as a "trib saint." That is a term manufactured and used exclusively by Pre-Trib.

The point of remaining steadfast (hypomeno) is the same for the Christian today as the martyr of the Great Tribulation: the same Grace is at work for enduring faith.

In the coming age, men on Earth will look up into the sky and see the New Jerusalem, home of the Church, in orbit nearby.

Where stands it written? - that is the motto of the (Swedish) Evangelical Free Church and I like it because it makes them like the Bereans, whom I admire.

Please provide Scriptural proof. That's a pretty high standard.

revelation 21:1-14

Revelation 21:1-14 does not say men on earth will look up into the sky and see the New Jerusalem.

You did not give a Scriptural reference for what you attested. This will become a pattern for your responses...

You Quote:
There is no such thing in the Bible as a "trib saint." That is a term manufactured and used exclusively by Pre-Trib.

My Reply:
13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are obviously saints that came out of the great tribulation.......Trib saints.

You Quote:
The point of remaining steadfast (hypomeno) is the same for the Christian today as the martyr of the Great Tribulation: the same Grace is at work for enduring faith.


My Reply:
But that all comes to a crashing halt at the Rapture. Even during Daniel's 70th Week it's clear that life on Earth will be a lot more like it was in the Old Testament than it is in the New. For example, the Jews only need to build a Temple in order to conduct animal sacrifice. Their worship system requires it. Remember, in the middle of the 70th week the Abomination of Desolation will cause an end to the sacrifice and offering (Daniel 9:27). That means sacrifices will have begun again with the construction of the Temple, because they aren't being done now.

In an earlier study, The Nature Of Post Church Salvation, I made the case that post Church believers, whether Jew or Gentile, will not enjoy the seal of the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their inheritance. Eternal Security is a blessing for the Church alone and ends with the end of the Age of Grace at the Rapture. Two passages from Revelation illustrate this.

1. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)



Speaking of the perilous times after the introduction of the Mark of the Beast, the Lord had John say that both obedience and faith will be required of Tribulation believers, whereas the Church is saved by grace through faith alone.

2. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." (Rev. 16:15.)

When used symbolically, clothing always stands for righteousness. Note that it's the Tribulation believer's responsibility to maintain his righteousness. It's not imputed to him solely by faith as ours is.

Immediately after the 2nd Coming, the Temple will be cleansed and on Earth animal sacrifice will begin again. The fact that there were animal sacrifices before the Church and there will be animal sacrifices after the Church shows that they were not eliminated forever when Jesus came, but only suspended during the Age of Grace. (In the New Jerusalem, home of the Church, there is no Temple. (Rev. 21:22) Having been the Lord's Temple for the last 2000 years, we'll see that He's become ours.)
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/kelley/jack69.html

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Grace:
The trib saints will do great acts of faith,and thumb their nose at the beast in the face of death.
These guys had witnessed the rapture, the foretold revelation events,...believe me, these guys are no whimps,these signs gives them the strength and boldness to face death.
After the rapture,temptation will be at no hold barred scenario.
and in those days, you must adhere to all the commandments of God.
You cannot stray even in the slightest way, cause the period of grace is no longer in effect.
Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor.
A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense
Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.
The last 7 years there is only judgement,...no grace to allow those little sins.


It is obvious that anyone who misses a pre-trib rapture must provide evidence of faith by works during Daniels 70th week.

Matthew 25;
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

You Quote:
Revelation 21:1-14 does not say men on earth will look up into the sky and see the New Jerusalem.

You did not give a Scriptural reference for what you attested. This will become a pattern for your responses...

My reply:
In My Father’s house are many mansions [dwelling places]; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:2-3) [emphasis added]

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb. 11:8-10) [emphasis added]


The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the 1rod, 2fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.

17
And he measured its wall, 1seventy-two yards, according to ahuman 2measurements, which are also bangelic measurements.

18
The material of the wall was ajasper; and the city was bpure gold, like 1clear cglass.

19
aThe foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was bjasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, cemerald;

20
the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, asardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.

21
And the twelve agates were twelve bpearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was cpure gold, like transparent dglass.

22
I saw ano 1temple in it, for the bLord God the Almighty and the cLamb are its 1temple.

23
And the city ahas no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for bthe glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the cLamb.

24
aThe nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

Of course men will look up at the New Jerusalem.

[benny balerio]

That's not quite what the Bible has to say about the people left after the Harvest: "...their deeds will follow them."

Here the Lord admonished Tribulation believers to obey the Commandments and remain faithful, knowing that those who refuse the mark will either be martyred or forced out of the world's economic system, denied access to life's necessities. Those who die for their faith will be blessed, because their ordeal will be over.

The Elect are going to be decimated. Jesus said we would be handed over.
Jesus said the end will come before all the Elect are wiped out.
After the Elect are gathered up, the Two Witnesses remain behind. Any other of the Elect remaining behind will be martyred.
As each of us will have to account for ourselves, what they do will in keeping the faith will be a testament to them.

The ones left behind are no different than the Church which is taken up in the Harvest of Rev 14 except for the circumstances in which their faith will be tested.

There is no such thing as "tribulation believers." Either you believe or you don't. We are united in Christ. In this age, there is one way to Heaven.

Rev. 16:15 - If you're familiar with the symbolic reference to clothing, you know what this verse means. If not, let's review it.

Figuratively, you can make the Bible say anything.

In a literal sense, the Remnant Jews who fled at the midpoint must be ready to move at a moment's notice.

Saying clothing is salvation is not applicable, because those without clothing still are cared for. Without Salvation, a person who has turned their back on Jesus by taking the mark of the beast (failing the test of faith) will not be cared for.

Your figurative explanation falls apart by the very words Jesus reveals - for the naked are still shepherded. So much for your clothing analogies...

Negative, this call is the Church not to be like the five foolish virgins. Verse 12 does not happen in a vacuum. It comes right before the Harvest.

Rev. 16:15 implies that Tribulation believers are responsible for remaining steadfast in their faith to avoid losing their salvation. Matt. 25:8 agrees, telling us that all 10 virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning, but the five foolish ones didn’t have enough to carry them through. Remember, all 10 virgins are caught sleeping when He returns. It’s the oil that distinguishes one group from the other, not their behavior.

Rev 16 doesn't apply.

In Matthew, the very act of buying physical oil means the five foolish virgins had to get the mark of the beast.

It is a literal warning. While oil can be figuratively applied to the fuel for prayer, it is not distinguishing characteristic between the wise and the foolish. What distinguishes them is what the foolish did; you cannot take the mark of the beast and be admitted to Heaven no matter what you believe.

Post-Rapture - this describes the duty of the Remnant Jews to be at the ready to move as various desolations imperil their existence.

Do you have a point here?

This counts as a non-response.

Nope. Animal sacrifice is a Millennium condition. I don't know of any verse/passage which foretells of the cleansing of the Temple when Jesus arrives there on the Day of the Lord (post-Rapture). It might be, I just don't have any knowledge that that is written.

At the end of the 490 years, the holy of holies in the Temple on Temple Mount in Jerusalem will be anointed once again for God’s service (cf other prophecies of the future Temple - Joel 3:18, Is 60:7, Jer 33:20, 21, 22, Ezek 37:26, 27, 28).

Your Scriptural references don't indicate a cleansing of the Temple.

Once again, you have failed to back up your assertions with Scripture.

You Quote:
The Elect are going to be decimated. Jesus said we would be handed over.

My Reply:
Revelation 13 never states that the saints are handed over as you claim.

First of all,..The Lord said to Peter that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.
This makes sense considering that "Greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world.
The Holy Spirit is indwelling us today,..which is something that did not occur prior to the Day of Pentecost.
Believe me,..satan is no match against us.
But!.........once the Rapture occurs,...The Holy spirit is taken out of the way.
The Holy Spirit will no longer indwell the believer on earth during Daniels 70th week, as He does today.


We know that the holy spirit is omnipresent and was present before the creation of the world.The old testament saints,..where worthy of heaven when they had lived and died in faith.Their works followed them.King David cried out that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him when he had committed adultery.Under the Mosiac Law,....if you committed one sin,...then it was like committing them all.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that the Holy spirit is omnipresent.This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!And on the day of Pentecost,...The church age was born!Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,...The Bride which hinders the revealing of the son of perdition,....is taken out of the way.The church age will be over,the bride caught up into the air to meet the Lord.The Holy spirit is still omnipresent,...and those who were left behind will have one of the greatest incentives the world has ever wittnessed to come to Christ Jesus...THE RAPTURE!.But things will revert back to the way it was before the church age had began on the day of Pentecost.The Lord makes it clear that during the Great Tribulation,the Martyred Tribulation Saints will be a multitude that no man could number. Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

You Quote:
Jesus said the end will come before all the Elect are wiped out.

My Reply:
Basicly, yes,...that is why the Great Tribulation (second half of Daniels 70th week)...will only last 1,260 days.

You Quote:
After the Elect are gathered up, the Two Witnesses remain behind. Any other of the Elect remaining behind will be martyred.


My Reply:
The Two witnesses begin their ministry in the first half of Daniels 70th week,.....and are slain when the A.O.D. begins.

You Quote:
As each of us will have to account for ourselves, what they do will in keeping the faith will be a testament to them.

My Reply:
Yes,..any of those who miss the pre-trib rapture, will have to give an account of themselves at the Sheep and goat Judgement if they survive the 7 years of tribulation.

You Quote:
The ones left behind are no different than the Church which is taken up in the Harvest of Rev 14 except for the circumstances in which their faith will be tested.

My Reply:
Those taken up in the pre-trib rapture are the Bride,,...those who are martyred during Daniels 70th week and those who survive are not the Bride,..but these will receive eternal life.
The Martyred will:

15Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God

and serve him day and night in his temple;

and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.

16Never again will they hunger;

never again will they thirst.

The sun will not beat upon them,

nor any scorching heat.

17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;

he will lead them to springs of living water.

And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

The Harvest in revelation 14...is about the Lord returning with the souls of the Martyred saints and reuniting thier souls with thier new bodies after Armageddon.
This is not a rapture.......revelation 20;4 never mentions a rapture,....only a resurrection is mentioned here.

The Bride will not be tested:
revelation 3;10
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Only those left behind in a pre-trib rapture will be tested.The period of grace had expired,..and now these must provide evidence of their faith, and endure in it unto the end,..either as a martyred saint, or as a survivor.
Of course,..revelation 14 also reveals a harvest of the wicked too!



You Quote:
Saying clothing is salvation is not applicable, because those without clothing still are cared for. Without Salvation, a person who has turned their back on Jesus by taking the mark of the beast (failing the test of faith) will not be cared for.

My Reply:
2. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." (Rev. 16:15.)

When used symbolically, clothing always stands for righteousness. Note that it's the Tribulation believer's responsibility to maintain his righteousness. It's not imputed to him solely by faith as ours is.
You may not realize it,..but you have admitted that one is not saved by grace during Daniels 70th week.
Or is it that you do not truely understand the true meaning of GRACE???
Why don't you explain to us how you interpret "GRACE".

You Quote:
Rev 16 doesn't apply.

My Reply:
Of course it applies
It is the same as one trying to stay saved,...which means that one must do so daily by their works of faith.
Today,...we are saved by Grace,...not by works.

You Quote:
In Matthew, the very act of buying physical oil means the five foolish virgins had to get the mark of the beast.
It is a literal warning. While oil can be figuratively applied to the fuel for prayer, it is not distinguishing characteristic between the wise and the foolish. What distinguishes them is what the foolish did; you cannot take the mark of the beast and be admitted to Heaven no matter what you believe.


My Reply:
It is not physical oil,..but is Spiritual oil.
The five foolish virgins obviously believed,for they had a little oil,..but not enough..but that was as far as it went,...they did not care about their brother when a time of testing came, but were selfish.
But when these foolish virgins had realized that the Bridegroom was coming,..they went out to get oil for their lamps.
The bible does not indicate that these had received the Mark.
It seems that if one has received the Mark,...there would not be the slightest amount of oil(Holy Spirit) in their lives.


You Quote:

Your Scriptural references don't indicate a cleansing of the Temple.

Once again, you have failed to back up your assertions with Scripture.

My Reply:
The Lord Jesus Christ's presence alone is sufficient to cleanse the temple.
So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary (miqdash from qodesh). (Da 9:17)

Comment: It would be reasonable to consider the anointing of the holy place as God's specific answer to this petition, for when the Messiah returns and takes His rightful place on His throne in the Holy Place (which the Antichrist had just attempted to usurp - cf 2Th 2:3,4), surely God's face will smile on the Holy of holies

[benny balerio]

Nope!

The sun/moon/star event happens first heralding the Day of the Lord.
The sign of the Son of Man (the scrolling of the sky) happens after that.
Then Jesus arrives on the clouds and gathers us up.

That is what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. We know what you think of that. Denial is hardly recognized by those exercising it.

So basicly ,..you are claiming that a rapture of the dead and alive is to occur moments before the Lord descends on mount olivet?

Nope.

The sixth Seal reveals the earthquake happens before the 144,000 and the gathering of the Great Multitude occurs.

Jesus' parousia happens bookend to His Ascension. He will return as He left - right to the spot.
And He will split the Mount of Olives North-South. Remnant Jews will flee from Jerusalem through the newly hewn cleft to join those from Judea who fled previously.'

• From Mount Zion, a new place because of the geographical change, Jesus musters the 144,000.
  
• Then the Dead in Christ are risen. (Not an earthly event - but from the first Heaven)
• Then Jesus comes with them on the clouds to gather the Elect who have survived the Great Tribulation.
• Then Jesus will deliver this Great Multitude to the third Heaven of the Father's presence.
  
• Then Jesus comes back to scourge Israel of its idolatry.
• Joel 2 describes the Wrath of God taking over Jerusalem.
• Ezekiel 9 takes place at this time in the Temple.
• The first Trumpet sounds and the Day of the Lord's Wrath comes upon the wicked.

It is a Day

When you say that the Day of the Lord is a day,..I assume that you are claiming that it is only a 24 hour period.
This of course, is an incorrect interpretation on your part.

That would be an incorrect interpretation on your part.

Everything I've listed can happen on one Jewish day which begins at sundown by the way...

You Quote:
Nope.

The sixth Seal reveals the earthquake happens before the 144,000 and the gathering of the Great Multitude occurs.

Jesus' parousia happens bookend to His Ascension. He will return as He left - right to the spot.
And He will split the Mount of Olives North-South. Remnant Jews will flee from Jerusalem through the newly hewn cleft to join those from Judea who fled previously.'


From Mount Zion, a new place because of the geographical change, Jesus musters the 144,000.

Then the Dead in Christ are risen. (Not an earthly event - but from the first Heaven)
Then Jesus comes with them on the clouds to gather the Elect who have survived the Great Tribulation.
Then Jesus will deliver this Great Multitude to the third Heaven of the Father's presence.

Then Jesus comes back to scourge Israel of its idolatry.
Joel 2 describes the Wrath of God taking over Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 9 takes place at this time in the Temple.
The first Trumpet sounds and the Day of the Lord's Wrath comes upon the wicked.


My Reply:
Your reply very much reveals that you are claiming a rapture as the Lord returns after the tribulation.
I also notice that you claim that all the dead and alive are taken to heaven after armageddon...is that what you claim???

You Quote:
That would be an incorrect interpretation on your part.

Everything I've listed can happen on one Jewish day which begins at sundown by the way...


My Reply:
First, the day of the Lord refers to the Tribulation period, not the rapture.

The "day of the Lord" doesn't mean a 24-hour day, but a time period of judgment (Isa. 2:12, 13:6,9, Ezek. 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14, Amos 5:18, 20) The Thessalonians were shaken and disturbed because someone had deceived them into believing the Tribulation Period had begun. Paul said the antichrist must be revealed before this happens. When the antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel, he will be revealed, beginning the 7-year Tribulation period.

[MarkT]

1 Thessalonians 5;4 is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the rapture.
With that thought in mind,...I ask you,...what is it that you disagree with in the following link?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=59505&p=540029#p540029

When you say:
The Day Of the Lord beginns with Ezekiel 38;18-20.......AH!!!...We know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the Air prior to The Day of the Lord.

There is no Scriptural support for your statements. They are just your statements.

[benny balerio]

1 Thessalonians 5;4 is very clear that we would recognize the general time era of the rapture.
With that thought in mind,...I ask you,...what is it that you disagree with in the following link?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=59505&p=540029#p540029

When you say:
The Day Of the Lord beginns with Ezekiel 38;18-20.......AH!!!...We know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the Air prior to The Day of the Lord.

There is no Scriptural support for your statements. They are just your statements.

You Quote:
There is no Scriptural support for your statements. They are just your statements

My Reply:
Of course there are scriptural support for my statements.

Ezekiel 38;18-20 reveal the beginning of the Wrath of God,..and 1 thessalonians 1;10 is very clear that the Bride is taken away prior to the wrath of God.
I have just provided scripture.
Allow me to ask you a question.
When do you believe that Ezekiel 38 would come to pass?

[MarkT]

Where stands it written?

Dan 11:33

It is just common sense.
Just because one is very familiar with scriptures such as endtime prophecy,..does not mean that they are saved,..without Jesus,..we have nothing.
I am sure that some who are left behind, will recognize who the anti-christ is when he confirms a 7 year covenant.

Once again, I provide Scriptural support and you rely on your own thinking, thinking it is generally accepted: It is not.

Yes, the Church does go through the first half of the one 'seven;' they will see the midpoint abomination, and we will suffer greatly during the Great Tribulation.

That is incorrect,..I assure you that the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week.

Again, you have NO scriptural support for your naysaying - or for your whole eschatology for that matter...

Once again,..in the 490 decree given to the Jewish race by the Lord,

Incorrect again according to Scripture - Gabriel says it is for Daniel's Holy City and his people. The Man in Linen identifies Daniel's people as those in the "Book," ~ the Book of Life: so Daniel represents all those who would be righteous: the Elect.

...the first 483 years was without the Bride,...the last 7 years known as the "Time of Jacobs Trouble" too,...will be without the Bride.

False comparison based on a faulty exegesis of the Bible.

Again Scripturally: the Time of Jacob's Trouble, from Jeremiah, is a Day, and in OT prophecy, the Day that the Lord's Wrath falls upon unbelieving Israel is the Day of the Lord.

The reason Revelation 13:9 only states the words.."He who has an ear, let him hear" and has not included the words"what the Spirit says to the churches.” is because the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way and has taken the bride with Him.

Again, you have no Scriptural support for your attestment; just your saying so. Your saying so doesn't have a very good track record and it is no basis for me to change what I can see in the Sequence-of-Events in Bible prophecy which alters the basic timing of the Rapture as coming after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribualtion, but before God's Wrath falls starting on the specific and unique Day of the Lord and continuing thereafter until the Man of Lawlessness is utterly destroyed ultimately beyond this world.

[MarkT]

Paul said Jesus wouldn't come and the Rapture doesn't happen UNTIL the apostacy occurs and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

No,..your interpretation is incorrect here.
I ask you,....where do you see anything indicating a falling away in the following scripture?
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

You're not even looking at the pertinent portion of Paul's discourse to the Thessalonians.

After saying that there will be a Day when Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him, Paul says that Day will not come until the apostacy happens and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

You have a basic problem of reading Scripture for what it says instead of what you want it to mean.

You have another problem with being able to provide correct Scriptural support for your opinions.

You have another real problem with basic word translation!

[benny balerio]

Where stands it written?

Dan 11:33

It is just common sense.
Just because one is very familiar with scriptures such as endtime prophecy,..does not mean that they are saved,..without Jesus,..we have nothing.
I am sure that some who are left behind, will recognize who the anti-christ is when he confirms a 7 year covenant.

Once again, I provide Scriptural support and you rely on your own thinking, thinking it is generally accepted: It is not.

Yes, the Church does go through the first half of the one 'seven;' they will see the midpoint abomination, and we will suffer greatly during the Great Tribulation.

That is incorrect,..I assure you that the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week.

Again, you have NO scriptural support for your naysaying - or for your whole eschatology for that matter...

Once again,..in the 490 decree given to the Jewish race by the Lord,

Incorrect again according to Scripture - Gabriel says it is for Daniel's Holy City and his people. The Man in Linen identifies Daniel's people as those in the "Book," ~ the Book of Life: so Daniel represents all those who would be righteous: the Elect.

...the first 483 years was without the Bride,...the last 7 years known as the "Time of Jacobs Trouble" too,...will be without the Bride.

False comparison based on a faulty exegesis of the Bible.

Again Scripturally: the Time of Jacob's Trouble, from Jeremiah, is a Day, and in OT prophecy, the Day that the Lord's Wrath falls upon unbelieving Israel is the Day of the Lord.

The reason Revelation 13:9 only states the words.."He who has an ear, let him hear" and has not included the words"what the Spirit says to the churches.” is because the Holy Spirit has been taken out of the way and has taken the bride with Him.

Again, you have no Scriptural support for your attestment; just your saying so. Your saying so doesn't have a very good track record and it is no basis for me to change what I can see in the Sequence-of-Events in Bible prophecy which alters the basic timing of the Rapture as coming after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribualtion, but before God's Wrath falls starting on the specific and unique Day of the Lord and continuing thereafter until the Man of Lawlessness is utterly destroyed ultimately beyond this world.

You Quote:
Once again, I provide Scriptural support and you rely on your own thinking, thinking it is generally accepted: It is not.


My Reply:
33“Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.
These spoken here are obviously not identified as the Bride.
The Bride is already puried in christ Jesus.

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him”. (Romans 5:9)

What does it mean to be justified? Being justified means that we are acquitted of our crime, the slate is wiped clean, our rap sheet is now blank, as if we had never sinned and broken the Law and we can now be deemed righteous. We can only attain this by faith in the sacrificial blood of Christ, (Romans 3:28 & Galatians 3:24). It is a free gift from God given to us by grace.

“…being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus”, (Romans 3:24)

At the Cross our debts were and are PAID IN FULL!
We are saved by Grace......This is targeted for the bride,..not those left behind.

You Quote:
Again, you have NO scriptural support for your naysaying - or for your whole eschatology for that matter...


My Reply:
Allow me to ask you a question.
What is the identity of the those fleeing in the following scripture.?

Matthew 24;
15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’b spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
What is the purpose of Daniels 70th week?

Who are Daniels People?(Daniel 9;24)

Why did the Lord describe Israel as His people in Ezekiel 38;14?

You Quote:
Incorrect again according to Scripture - Gabriel says it is for Daniel's Holy City and his people. The Man in Linen identifies Daniel's people as those in the "Book," ~ the Book of Life: so Daniel represents all those who would be righteous: the Elect.

My Reply:
The Bride was still a mystery in Daniels time,...therefore Gabriel was referring to the Jewish race.


You Quote:
False comparison based on a faulty exegesis of the Bible.

Again Scripturally: the Time of Jacob's Trouble, from Jeremiah, is a Day, and in OT prophecy, the Day that the Lord's Wrath falls upon unbelieving Israel is the Day of the Lord.

My Reply"
First, the day of the Lord refers to the Tribulation period, not the rapture.

The "day of the Lord" doesn't mean a 24-hour day, but a time period of judgment (Isa. 2:12, 13:6,9, Ezek. 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14, Amos 5:18, 20) The Thessalonians were shaken and disturbed because someone had deceived them into believing the Tribulation Period had begun. Paul said the antichrist must be revealed before this happens. When the antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel, he will be revealed, beginning the 7-year Tribulation period.

You Quote:
Again, you have no Scriptural support for your attestment; just your saying so. Your saying so doesn't have a very good track record and it is no basis for me to change what I can see in the Sequence-of-Events in Bible prophecy which alters the basic timing of the Rapture as coming after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribualtion, but before God's Wrath falls starting on the specific and unique Day of the Lord and continuing thereafter until the Man of Lawlessness is utterly destroyed ultimately beyond this world.

My Reply:
So you claim that a rapture occursafter midpoint of the A.O.D....Hmmmmmm........Tell us,..Did you not claim that a rapture occurred?

The following is what you stated:
"Then Jesus comes with them on the clouds to gather the Elect who have survived the Great Tribulation.
Then Jesus will deliver this Great Multitude to the third Heaven of the Father's presence.

You Said..."to gather the Elect who have survived the Great Tribulation"...as in after armageddon.

Revelation 20;4 never mentions a rapture.

So tell us,...how long are this multitude that you mention, to spend their time in heaven?

Again,..if all the Dead and alive in Christ Jesus are raptured after the Great Tribulation,...then who will there be to repopulate the Millennium?Cause we know that all unbelievers will be destroyed.

[MarkT]

apostesia means apostacy - it's where we get our word - from the Greek!

Apostacy does not mean a physical departure, but a departure from the rule of law or moral code.

apostesia, much as the equivalent English word apostasy, means a renunciation of a religious faith, or in the second definition a desertion or departure of what one has voluntarily professed—Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971. In as much as rebellion is a departure from God, having a translation of apostesia rendered as departure in the King James Version does not infer the physical departure of the Church. In latter translations, the ambiguity is cleared up and apostesia is translated for what it is - apostacy (NASB).

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has the following:
“Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2 Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt 24:11-12).”—p.89

Liddell and Scott and TDNT suggest that APOSTASIA is a later construction for another noun APOSTASIS. The reason I ask this is related to the argument about APOSTASIA as the Rapture in 2 Thess 2:3. Those who argue this position point to the fact that APOSTASIA did have the meaning of "spatial departure" in classical Greek. For APOSTASIA itself LSJ lists only one reference for "spatial departure," and this is from the 6th century A.D. Apparently, the argument that APOSTASIA meant "spatial departure" in the classical period comes from its association with APOSTASIS. Is APOSTASIA more than just a different way to spell APOSTASIS--I assume so. The article in TDNT also says APOSTASIA is a later construction for APOSTASIS, but in the discussion seems to suggest that have a slightly different meaning. Is it legitimate to say that the later APOSTASIA is fully equivalent to the earlier APOSTASIS?
Liddell & Scott (apostasis): --(revolt / departure)

Liddel & Scott define apostesia in the religious sense as a rebellion against God.

ἀπο-στᾰσία, ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις, defection, revolt, v.
l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.
2. departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2.
3. distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7.
4. distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

Unless you want to rely on Aristotle's commentary on meteors, or Archimedes talking about geometry - you have absolutely NO translational basis for stating that apostacy denotes the Rapture.

Geoffrey W. Bromiley in the Theological Word Dictionary of the New Testament has this to say on p. 89 of his book (which I have):

apostasia. Based on apostátēs (politically a "rebel," religiously an "apostate"), this term signifies the state (not an act) of apostasy. Paul is accused of apostasy against the law in Acts 21:21. Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt. 24:11-12.)

Now you're just plain wrong on apostesia, just like Timothy LaHaye and Thomas Ice are when they try to say the most ancient translation of the Greek into English confers the same thing. So they got it wrong almost a thousand years ago and we're supposed to honor that? What is this? Ancestory worship? Whatever happened to good word study?

No, the fact is clear. For Scriptural support, you err greatly, and misrepresent the facts as far as word meaning.

Your arguments have no support other than you say so...

[benny balerio]

Paul said Jesus wouldn't come and the Rapture doesn't happen UNTIL the apostacy occurs and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

No,..your interpretation is incorrect here.
I ask you,....where do you see anything indicating a falling away in the following scripture?
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

You're not even looking at the pertinent portion of Paul's discourse to the Thessalonians.

After saying that there will be a Day when Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him, Paul says that Day will not come until the apostacy happens and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

You have a basic problem of reading Scripture for what it says instead of what you want it to mean.

You have another problem with being able to provide correct Scriptural support for your opinions.

You have another real problem with basic word translation!

You Quote:
After saying that there will be a Day when Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him, Paul says that Day will not come until the apostacy happens and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed.

My Reply:
Strong's did misinterpret the Word Apostasy,..in that he thought it meant rebellion.
Actuall the correct interpretation is "Departure"

Again,..the Pauline letters never even indicated a rebellion/falling away leading to 2 Thessalonians 2;3
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/apostasia.htm

[benny balerio]

apostesia means apostacy - it's where we get our word - from the Greek!

Apostacy does not mean a physical departure, but a departure from the rule of law or moral code.

apostesia, much as the equivalent English word apostasy, means a renunciation of a religious faith, or in the second definition a desertion or departure of what one has voluntarily professed—Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971. In as much as rebellion is a departure from God, having a translation of apostesia rendered as departure in the King James Version does not infer the physical departure of the Church. In latter translations, the ambiguity is cleared up and apostesia is translated for what it is - apostacy (NASB).

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament has the following:
“Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2 Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt 24:11-12).”—p.89

Liddell and Scott and TDNT suggest that APOSTASIA is a later construction for another noun APOSTASIS. The reason I ask this is related to the argument about APOSTASIA as the Rapture in 2 Thess 2:3. Those who argue this position point to the fact that APOSTASIA did have the meaning of "spatial departure" in classical Greek. For APOSTASIA itself LSJ lists only one reference for "spatial departure," and this is from the 6th century A.D. Apparently, the argument that APOSTASIA meant "spatial departure" in the classical period comes from its association with APOSTASIS. Is APOSTASIA more than just a different way to spell APOSTASIS--I assume so. The article in TDNT also says APOSTASIA is a later construction for APOSTASIS, but in the discussion seems to suggest that have a slightly different meaning. Is it legitimate to say that the later APOSTASIA is fully equivalent to the earlier APOSTASIS?
Liddell & Scott (apostasis): --(revolt / departure)

Liddel & Scott define apostesia in the religious sense as a rebellion against God.

ἀπο-στᾰσία, ἡ, late form for ἀπόστασις, defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3.
2. departure, disappearance, Olymp. in Mete.320.2.
3. distinguishing, c. gen., Elias in Cat.119.7.
4. distance, Archim.Aren.1.5.

Unless you want to rely on Aristotle's commentary on meteors, or Archimedes talking about geometry - you have absolutely NO translational basis for stating that apostacy denotes the Rapture.

Geoffrey W. Bromiley in the Theological Word Dictionary of the New Testament has this to say on p. 89 of his book (which I have):

apostasia. Based on apostates (politically a "rebel," religiously an "apostate"), this term signifies the state (not an act) of apostasy. Paul is accused of apstasyt against the law in Acts 21:21. Eschatological apostasy is the issue in 2Th 2:3, either with or prior to the man of lawlessness. Resting on Jewish tradition, this will be the decline of Christians into error and sin in the last days (cf. Mt. 24:11-12.)

Now you're just plain wrong on apostesia, just like Timothy LaHaye and Thomas Ice are when they try to say the most ancient translation of the Greek into English confers the same thing. So they got it wrong almost a thousand years ago and we're supposed to honor that? What is this? Ancestory worship? Whatever happened to good word study?

No, the fact is clear. For Scriptural support, you err greatly, and misrepresent the facts as far as word meaning.

Your arguments have no support other than you say so...

My Reply:
The difference between my arguement and yours,... is that my presentation has a harmonic flow and yours does not,..but that yours has many flaws.
Now I ask you,...are you claiming that a born again christian can lose their salvation.?
The Word of God states that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church.
It also states that the moment that we first believed, that we were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption.

Again,...The Pauline letters do not hint of a falling or rebelling of the faith in Jesus christ prior to 2 thessalonians 2;3
Actuall,..it mentions that we were gathered together to Him in 2 Thessalonians 2;1
Revelation chapter five seems to suggest that the Church has been gathered together in heaven prior to the revealing of the Antichrist. In front of an innumerable heavenly audience, Jesus opens the scroll containing the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments in this chapter. Many teach along with me that the raptured Church comprises a large part of this crowd. The opening up of the first seal reveals the Antichrist as the first white horseman of the apocalypse. In essence, until the first seal is opened the Antichrist will not be revealed.

http://www.watchmenwatching.com/Misc/apostasy.htm

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/apostasia.htm

[MarkT]

apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to fall away".
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to depart" from a person, place, or thing.
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean a "change" in that a defection/apostasy is a change of heart, and the rapture is a change.
apostasia and metatithemi (in their related words, metathesis & aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

Cause and effect, cause and effect...

Linking two things and saying they are the same is one thing. Having them be the same is another thing.
In this case, benny is so ardent to prove his case, he doesn't care how much of the language he has to trample.
Like a drowning person, he is grasping at anything to keep his eschatology afloat.

Geoffrey W. Bromiely in his book, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, writes on p.1179 about metatithemi.

1. In the secular Greek, the verb means "to bring to, or set in, another place." "to alter" and middle "to change over."
...(skipping the LXX)
3. a. In the NT the verb means "to carry to" in Acts 7:16, "to take up" in Heb. 11:5 (Enoch), "to transform" in Jude 4, "to be done away" in Heb. 7:12, "to fall away" in Gal 1:6.

The two words are not related grammarically or by sense. There is no link between the two.

1. apostasy does not mean to fall away in a physical sense.
2. apostasy does not mean to depart physcially from a person, place or thing.
3. apostasy does not mean to change.
4. apostasy does not mean to remove.

If you can't trust someone's wordstudy, and you can't trust their lack of firm Scriptural support for what they say; how can you trust the conclusions they build upon nothing?

[MarkT]

The word .."Rebellion" is an incorrect interpretation.

Apostasy is a form of rebellion, rebellion against God.
Rebellion was used by the King James translators.
Apostasy is a better, modern-day translation to confer what Paul wrote in the Greek.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent during the tribulation(Daniels 70th week)
But He is not indwelling believers, as He did prior to Daniels 70th week.
The Holy Spirits new task began on the Day of Pentecost and ends when the "Fullness of the Gentiles" have come in.

I would not be so foolish to as to say what the Holy Spirit's "tasks" are.
We do not share God's heart nor His mind... and we know very little of the spirit, much less the Holy Spirit who is wholly God in the triune!

When one weighs the scales, based on the text, and the harmonic flow of scripture as a whole in the Word of God,...there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit is the "Restrainer"

So you have jumped to your conclusion and you have no doubt.

Neither have you provided Scriptural support. Paul did not name who the "one" is who "stands in the midst."

Theologians cannot answer who the "one" is.

Funny, you can... Funny, I'm not going to take your word on it!

[benny balerio]

The word .."Rebellion" is an incorrect interpretation.

Apostasy is a form of rebellion, rebellion against God.
Rebellion was used by the King James translators.
Apostasy is a better, modern-day translation to confer what Paul wrote in the Greek.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent during the tribulation(Daniels 70th week)
But He is not indwelling believers, as He did prior to Daniels 70th week.
The Holy Spirits new task began on the Day of Pentecost and ends when the "Fullness of the Gentiles" have come in.

I would not be so foolish to as to say what the Holy Spirit's "tasks" are.
We do not share God's heart nor His mind... and we know very little of the spirit, much less the Holy Spirit who is wholly God in the triune!

When one weighs the scales, based on the text, and the harmonic flow of scripture as a whole in the Word of God,...there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit is the "Restrainer"

So you have jumped to your conclusion and you have no doubt.

Neither have you provided Scriptural support. Paul did not name who the "one" is who "stands in the midst."

Theologians cannot answer who the "one" is.

Funny, you can... Funny, I'm not going to take your word on it!

In your view,..who do you believe is falling away from the faith???

[benny balerio]

apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to fall away".
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to depart" from a person, place, or thing.
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean a "change" in that a defection/apostasy is a change of heart, and the rapture is a change.
apostasia and metatithemi (in their related words, metathesis & aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

Cause and effect, cause and effect...

Linking two things and saying they are the same is one thing. Having them be the same is another thing.
In this case, benny is so ardent to prove his case, he doesn't care how much of the language he has to trample.
Like a drowning person, he is grasping at anything to keep his eschatology afloat.

Geoffrey W. Bromiely in his book, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, writes on p.1179 about metatithemi.

1. In the secular Greek, the verb means "to bring to, or set in, another place." "to alter" and middle "to change over."
...(skipping the LXX)
3. a. In the NT the verb means "to carry to" in Acts 7:16, "to take up" in Heb. 11:5 (Enoch), "to transform" in Jude 4, "to be done away" in Heb. 7:12, "to fall away" in Gal 1:6.

The two words are not related grammarically or by sense. There is no link between the two.

1. apostasy does not mean to fall away in a physical sense.
2. apostasy does not mean to depart physcially from a person, place or thing.
3. apostasy does not mean to change.
4. apostasy does not mean to remove.

If you can't trust someone's wordstudy, and you can't trust their lack of firm Scriptural support for what they say; how can you trust the conclusions they build upon nothing?

You Quote:
Geoffrey W. Bromiely in his book, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, writes on p.1179 about metatithemi.

My Reply:
I would not take any stock what Geoffrey W. Bromiely said, being that he is post trib.
It is not hard to refute his writings.
Again,..can you reveal a scripture that implies a falling away prior to 2 Thessalonians 2;3
I do not believe that you can.

I have a question for you.
When does Ezekiel 38 occur?

[MarkT]

Going on in the order they were posted:

If the Bride were still on the earth,...why is it that only 144,000 were sealed?

You are confusing the Firstfruits with the Harvest: they are not the same.

In Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the gathering of the first fruits which were offered as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God.

It proceeded with the general harvest. But not all was taken in this harvest. Some of the crop was left in the field to be gathered by the poor and the needy. This was called the gleanings (Leviticus 19:9-10).

Using this imagery, the Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

But there is a third and final stage to this resurrection of the righteous. It is the gleanings, and it occurs at the end of the Tribulation when the Lord's Second Coming takes place. At that time two final groups of the righteous will be resurrected: 1) the Tribulation martyrs (Revelation 20:4), and 2) the Old Testament saints (Dan 12:2).

Negative.

The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the Harvest, taken in Rev 14 (and previously viewed in broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 with the sixth Seal coming before the Great Multitude's arrival out of the Great Tribulation) before the Harvest of the same chapter in vv. 14-16.

The Two Witnesses and any others left behind to be martyred represent the gleamings left over. In the case of the Two Witnesses: all the wicked get are more pronouncements for God's Wrath.

There will be a second Advent. There are not two "comings" of the Lord, but one. After He comes, He can translate between Heaven and Earth as He needs, just as Jesus was mobile between these two planes of existence after His Resurrection and before His Ascension.

[MarkT]

The 144,000 are Jesus' Army as per Joel 2 and Revelation 19.

Joel 2 is not about the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel.

Says you.

The Lord is trampling out His Wrath on the Day of the Lord in Joel 2. That is a fact.
It is also a fact that the 144,000 never leave His side (Rev 14:4).
The 144,000 are mustered on the Day of the Lord (Rev 6:12-14 & 7:4)
Therefore, any army coming with the Lord would include the 144,000.
I propose that the 144,000 ARE His Army, the firstfruits of the Harvest. The Bible does not say they are Jewish...

[benny balerio]

Going on in the order they were posted:

If the Bride were still on the earth,...why is it that only 144,000 were sealed?

You are confusing the Firstfruits with the Harvest: they are not the same.

In Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the gathering of the first fruits which were offered as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God.

It proceeded with the general harvest. But not all was taken in this harvest. Some of the crop was left in the field to be gathered by the poor and the needy. This was called the gleanings (Leviticus 19:9-10).

Using this imagery, the Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

But there is a third and final stage to this resurrection of the righteous. It is the gleanings, and it occurs at the end of the Tribulation when the Lord's Second Coming takes place. At that time two final groups of the righteous will be resurrected: 1) the Tribulation martyrs (Revelation 20:4), and 2) the Old Testament saints (Dan 12:2).

Negative.

The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the Harvest, taken in Rev 14 (and previously viewed in broad overview of the end-times in chapters 4-11 with the sixth Seal coming before the Great Multitude's arrival out of the Great Tribulation) before the Harvest of the same chapter in vv. 14-16.

The Two Witnesses and any others left behind to be martyred represent the gleamings left over. In the case of the Two Witnesses: all the wicked get are more pronouncements for God's Wrath.

There will be a second Advent. There are not two "comings" of the Lord, but one. After He comes, He can translate between Heaven and Earth as He needs, just as Jesus was mobile between these two planes of existence after His Resurrection and before His Ascension.

You Quote:
The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the Harvest, taken in Rev 14 (

My Reply:
Are you implying that these 144,000 are the bride in revelation 7???

[MarkT]

When you read Ezekial 38;18-20
This is when the Day of the Lord begins, that continues throughout all of Daniels 70th week the Time of Jacobs trouble.
We all know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the air just prior to the beginning Day of The Lord.
Ezekial 38;18-20
which matches perfectly with revelation 6;14-17, Isaiah 2;19,
Joel 2
Take notice that this Ezekial 38 battle occurs when Israel and the World believes that they are dwelling safely.

Now,..the Lord could have described the flood in detail,...BUT! He did not! Instead He chose to point out a scenerio that they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.Just as the world was saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.(i Thessalonians 5;3)Verse 4;16-17 occurs "BEFORE" verse 5;3
Ezekial 38...describes that the world was living in peace and Israel and the world was not expecting an attack against Israel which is also the time that God's FURY came up in His face, Gods Wrath had Been activated by this attack..It is the beginning of the "Day of the Lord"
The two women grinding at the mill,..a description of normal life,..The Lord added this description to make sure all the einstein's and little rose peddles, of the world clearly got the picture that He intended


What I am pointing out is that the Day of the Lord begins with Exekial 38;18-20....which matches with revelation 6;14-17.....and joel 2 and that the rapture(Caught Up) occurs just before Gods Wrath(Look at above description again)

Jesus is coming to take us home people,...Get Ready,..Whoo Hoo!

Ezekiel 38:18-20 is not the start of the Day of the Lord, but what awaits the King of the North after Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord.

You said the Day of the Lord is the one 'seven.' That is your interpretation - it has NO Scriptural support.

When the King of the North attacks Israel and surrounds the Temple and then erects the midpoint abomination - then one who is like God will arise - Daniel 12:1.

The King of the North will suffer losses on the Day of the Lord to his forces. He will go on through much more desolations until the end is poured out on him with the Bowl Judgements.

Ultimately, he will be defeated at Armageddon and captured alive. He will pass through the halls of the dead as Isaiah foretells to be judged by God and then he and the false prophet will be the first to be thrown into Hell. Unlike every other wicked person, they will be bodily alive when this happens.