Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

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Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:30 am

Image


The picture is Europe and surrounding courtries.
The beast countries are the 10 WEU members with the military alliance and are in Steel Blue.
The Woman riding the beast are the other EU nations and are in Red.
The seven countries upon which the woman sits are in green - These are not part of the European Union.
The countries representing the Lamb are in Yellow.

What does it mean? I think it means ...
1. Europe will experience civil war between the countries representing the beast and the countries representing the woman.
2. Christians (and perhaps Jews) will leave Europe for the yellow (Lamb) countries.
3. After waging war on the Woman, the beast countries will invade the Lamb countries and wage war but the Lamb countries will win.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:43 am

OK, here is some interpretation to go along with the picture.

The picture you see is Mystery Babylon, the beast, the seven hills, and the lamb described in Revelation 17. Mystery Babylon is colored in Red and is riding side saddle on in the Beast colored in Steel Blue. You will notice that under Mystery Babylon's legs are seven countries colored in Green. The seven countries are the seven hills upon which Mystery Babylon sits. Colored in Yellow is Russia, Norway and a few other countries adjoining Mystery Babylon. Notice that the yellow countries resemble a Lamb with the nose and head formed by Norway and Russia with the breast formed by Belorussia, Ukraine, and Moldavia.

The Beast: The beast does not resemble any known animal and is called a beast whereas the first three beasts of Daniel are called a bear on its side, a lion with wings, and a leopard with wings. This is because the political boundaries formed by the kingdoms and empire referred to by the first three beasts of Daniel actually look like those animals (subjective). Revelation 17 does not describe this beast as any animal because it does not look like any known, identifiable animal; therefore, it is simply a beast. Also notice the beast is surrounded by the seas and Atlantic ocean. This is why the beast is described as from the Abyss, another name for the deep waters is abyss. The countries forming the beast are the 10 countries of the WEU that are full members of the Brussels treaty and therefore according to article 4 of the treaty have a military alliance. Thus they have ten horns or militaries.

Mystery Babylon: Mystery Babylon is a mystery because one cannot put a face to her. Where her face should be is the Baltic Sea, the Gulf of Bothnia, and the Gulf of Riga. Mystery Babylon is made up of the European Union countries that are not part of the Military Alliance. The Golden Cup in her hand is Denmark. Prostitution is legal in Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Finland, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary, Slovenia. In Sweden prostitution is legal while paying for sex is illegal which means the purchaser is guilty of a crime but not the prostitute. In Romania, prostitution is illegal but the abduction of girls and women for prostitution is rampant. Prostitution in Lithuania is illegal but common (probably because of light penalties). Thus Mystery Babylon is the "Mother of Prostitutes".

The Seven Hills and Seven Kings: These countries are not part of the EU but are surrounded by EU countries on all sides except the western side where resides the Adriatic Sea. The Seven Hills also represent seven kings or leaders. It is unclear if these seven kings are from these countries or are seven High-Representatives of the EU. If the kings are from the seven countries then one of the kings of the Seven Hills will become a EU High-Representative gaining the power of the 10 horns. If the Seven Kings are High-Representatives of the EU, then we are looking at Seven High-Representative where one of the seven is also an eighth serving multiple terms. As the Eighth High-Representative, he most likely will serve as one of the first six High-Representatives and also as the Eighth High-Representative. Thus he once was and now is not and yet will come. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, places the time frame of the prophecy during the term of the sixth High-Representative.

The Lamb: The countries making up the Lamb are mostly aligned with Russia who has stated they will defend Christianity. The call for God's people to come out of Mystery Babylon describes an emigration of Christian (and perhaps Jews) from the EU countries into the surrounding Lamb countries. Begin Edit 5.4.14 to include --> With the coup in the Ukraine, we will have to wait and see how things shake out between Russia and the Ukraine. As removing the Ukrain does not significantly change the shape of the countries making up the Lamb, I don't see the removal of the Ukrain from teh Lamb countries as affecting this interpretation. <--End Edit 5.4.14

EU Civil War and War with the Lamb: The Beast wages war (brings her to ruin, leaves her naked, burns her with fire) on the Mystery Babylon means the EU countries with the military alliance wage war on the other EU countries. This is likely to happen economically at first then militarily. After militarily conquering Mystery Babylon, the EU nations with the military alliance will wage war on Russia and the other countries making up the Lamp. They will lose against Russia and her allies.

Babylon the city: The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn (Rev 18:11): Brussels, the capital of the EU, where many of its government institutions, as well as world government institutions reside is also a port city (See: http://www.portdebruxelles.be/en/0/. This port city, also being the government seat, will be destroyed during war.

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Reverend R.G. Myers on Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:58 pm

If you really use your imagination, the red colored areas are almost in the shape of a horse, or beast, with Russia riding its back.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:17 pm

Reverend Myers,

Perhaps you would be interested in the following two maps.

The first is the Median Empire (in yellow) and the second is the changes to its political boundaries resulting from the conquests of Cyrus the great and other Achmeanid emperors.

Do you see the Median empire resembles a lion with wings? Notice that the rightmost part is the lions head and the left most part is his tail. The wings look like flaps at the southern most portion. He is sitting on theground with his rear feet tucked under like a cat.

Do you see that as a result of the campaigns of Cyrus the great that the wings were torn off, the lion is lifted from the ground, and now has two legs? Examine the key on the second map. The conquests signfied by the colors on the left side of the key were accomplished by Cyrus the Great. The right side was accomplished by other Acheamenid emperors.

Keith

Median Empire before Cyrus's conquest. (Click for Full Screen Image)

Image

Expansion of Cyrus and other Acheamenid emperors. (Click for Full Screen Image)

Image
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Mark F on Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:33 am

I don't find that the look on a map is going to be something God would use to describe who these nations are.

Daniel 7 is a vision with the beasts, a lion, a bear, and a leopard, the fourth beast has ten horns,I believe that they are the same as the scarlet beast that the woman rides in Revelation 17, same red beast with seven heads and ten horns of Rev 12, same seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 13.

Rev 12:3 has a beast with seven heads and ten horns, it is also firey red.
Rev 13:1-2 mentions this seven headed, ten horned beast again, Satan gave the beast his throne in verse 2, Jesus said that Satan's throne is in Pergamos, Rev. 2:13. That's in present day Turkey.

I believe that the fourth beast is the Ottoman Empire, they were based in Turkey. It's all the same firey red beast.
Mark

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:42 am

Mark,

Open another thread if you would like me debate your position.

I too think the Ottoman empire is a candidate for the 4th beast of Daniel. However, there is no description of the fourth beast in Daniel that lends itself to being identified by a map. Therefore, I am less certain about the Ottoman empire. Another candidate is the British Empire about which I am just as uncertain. As my working theory is about maps, I recognise it will be difficult to identify the fourth beast using a map (Although, the Ottoman empire map does have teeth).

However, I disagree with the first three being the same as the dragon of Revelation 12.
Revelation 12 has a time frame in the prophecy. That time frame is during Christs life, the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, and beyond during the Roman persecution of Christians. Also, the tail of the dragon in Revelation swiping stars from the sky describes Roman conquest of Africa (Egypt and Carthage). If you look at a map of the expansion of the Roman empire. In 9AD It resembles a dragon standing on the edge of the Mediteranian sea. See http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/wiseman/Roman/19Maps.html#9%20AD for maps of roman empire expansion.


If you would like me to publish more maps showing the Bear propped up on its side with ribs in his mouth and the Leopard with bird wings I shall. Perhaps this will help convince you that the Mystery Babylon map is worth considering.

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:13 am

I thought I would post the Bear propped up on one Leg.

The Bear propped up on one leg is the Acheamenid Empire started by Cyrus the Great and ending with Xerxes. Under Darius the great the empire resembled a Bear propped up on one leg with three ribs in his mouth. The Bear's head is on the Left of the map, in his mouth are the people of Thrace (the three ribs). The bear's back is too us and we can see his front right shoulder blade, his rear feet sticking out (on top right). His front left leg is labeled Syria and his claw is formed by the Nile delta where he is propped up on this claw against Libya and Egypt. Notice the tail is formed by the Indus River on the very right. The bear rising up and eating refers to the First (and perhaps second) Greco Persian war(s). Notice Greece is at the mouth of the bear and the Persian empire waged war with Greece.

Acheamenid (Persian) Empire (Click for Larger Image)

Image
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby jgilberAZ on Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:35 pm

:humm:
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:27 pm

The Leopard with four bird wings is the Eastern Roman Empire established as part of the Tetrarchy by Diocletian. Notice the outstretched legs on the bottom of the map as if the leopard is running to the right. The neck is formed by the eastern shore land of the Mediteranian Sea. The head is formed by Western Turkey, and is looking behind to the left. The four wings are formed by the Prefecture of Illyricum and the Dioceses Thrace.
The four heads are the four Roman Emperors of the Eastern Empire begining with Diocletian whoe divided the empire into the Tetrarchy and ended when Constantine from the western empire remerged the eastern and western empires by defeating Licinius in 324AD. The names of the Emperors (Augustus of the East) are: Diocletian 286-305 , Galerius 305-311, Maximinus Daia 310-312, Licinius 312-324.

Edited to correct the dates of the Augustus of the East 2.1.14 -KAR
Eastern Roman Empire during the Tetrarchy (Click for Full Screen Image)

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:32 pm

For those interested,
The Western Roman Empire under the Tetrarchy resembles the Beast in the Mystery Babylon image closely. It is uncanny how similar they are. This may be another meaning of the beast once was, now is not, and is yet to come.
You will also notice that the eastern empire is a beast that comes from the land (leopard) and the western is a beast coming from the water.

Image
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:36 pm

Here are the Eastern and Western Empires on the same map.
Cick here for full image

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Sword of Geddon on Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:46 pm

You guys are trying to force a piece of a puzzle to fit something thats completely the wrong shape.

Don't go looking at maps for some hidden clues regarding prophecy. Look at the word. Its simple, it even tells you what the visions mean.

There is only one meaning prophecy. Do not go and confuse others. Its not good for yourself..or other believers.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:52 am

Sword of Giddon,

How do you think what I have posted disagrees with Scripture?

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Sword of Geddon on Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:02 pm

Your saying that something on a map, the shape of a continent or national borders resembles something in prophecy.

I'm saying that God does not operate like Dan Brown's the "davinci code" with hidden meaning and such. Hidden meanings and clues are the mark of the occult, not of Christianity. If your looking for the identity of mystery babylon...look in plain site.

God says in the word that all evidence of him is in plain site, as is his intentions he chooses to reveal to us.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:18 pm

Sword of Geddon,

Would you please back up what you have said with some scripture.

Dan 7:4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it.

Show me where in the scripture the meaning of:
"its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being and a mind of a human was given to it".

I have provided historical maps of the conquests of Cyrus the great that demonstrate a kingdom that underwent the changes described in scripture.

What is your explanation of the meaning?

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Sword of Geddon on Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:46 am

Is not that already explained in Daniel? There were three beasts preceding the antichrist beast. That means they are three empires that ruled in the middle-eastern region previous to the antichrist's kingdom and what preceded it.

Daniel identifies these kingdoms when he describes the statue dream to Nebuchadnezzar. 1. Babylon, 2. Persia, 3. Greek, and four is the final kingdom.

Scripture interprets scripture. That is a pattern you see threw the entire sacred texts.

I realize there is a great many who believe Rome to be that last empire. But lets consider what Jesus said things would be like when he returned. He said "As in the days of noah".

The third part of the statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream was composed of Iron, as is the fourth. The fourth is also mixed, deluded with clay.

Therefore I can only conclude that the fourth beast, as with the feet of the statue, represent something decended from Greek or Hellenistic influence. Also remember that Noah lived for some centuries after the flood.

Noah saw the rise of the first Babylon, the rise of Nimrod/Gilgamesh, a man who was responsible for leading Noah's sons descendants away from worship of the one true God, and therefore was the birthplace of post-flood false religion.

We have a modern day tower of babel, a place that was intended from the start to become a world government in the form of the United Nations. Therefore the idea of the iron feet of the statue being deluded with clay makes sense, as the UN is a mixed organization by its very nature.

The United Nations has been since it was founded, been restrained by the veto power of the United States. Many attempts at granting the UN more power were foiled by the US veto alone.

The US as a nation has largely turned its back on the God it once revered. It is not yet responsible for all the blood of the saints on Earth, but it is a known fact that the statue of liberty was originally meant to be colored red and violet, and the torch was originally going to be a cup.

So the US rides and controls the UN, what will be the beast empire. The US also controls the airspace surrounding Babylon, and the US is building a new city over the ruins of the old babylon.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:55 am

Sword of Geddon,

Your interpretation of scripture is pretty common. I have read it myself. Quite frankly, I find the commentaries lacking. It is commonly expressed in those same commentaries that the four wings on and the four heads of the third beast are the four kingdoms and generals of the Diadochi who divided Alexander the Great's empire. This leaves the reader wondering what the descriptions of the other beasts mean.

Why did God include those description in the scriptures? Are those descriptions just fluff or should we try to understand them? If an explanation of prophecy does not explain what the prophecy means, how can it be considered an explanation?

In the first beast of Daniel 7, we have a description of a beast and we are told that beast represents some kingdom. Thus the description of the beast must be a description of a some kingdom. Here is the verse describing the first beast of Daniel 7.

Daniel 7:4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.

In this single verse we have a number of phrases and those phrases beg the following questions.
a) What do the wings on the first beast represent?
b) What does it mean that those wings were torn off?
c) What does it mean that the beast was given two legs to stand up like a man?
d) What does it mean the beast was given the heart of a man?

I have put forth answers to these questions and similar questions from other prophecies. The answer is that the kingdom of the prophetic beast can be known for sure because the description of the beast is a description of the geography of the kingdom.

How would you answer these questions?

If an explanation of prophecy does not have answers to these questions, why should it be considered superior to an explanation that does answer these questions?

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Sword of Geddon on Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:53 pm

Actually I have read that the four beasts of Revelation represent countries that exist during the time leading up to, and during the tribulation. I got them confused with the statue.

I have read the lion that loses its wings represents england, and the wings of the eagle represent the United States.

The bear is Russia, while the leopard is a bit trickier. I have heard various theories regarding the leopard, including Persia. I think looking for a country today that is known for being associated with leopards would be a key to solving that one. It would be a country that is important to the last days timeline.

The last beast is obviously the same as the beast from the sea described in revelations. The little horn is the antichrist, a fallen angel from the bottomless pit named in Revelation as Apollyon, who takes over the last beast kingdom by eliminating three of its rulers as a show of his power.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:27 pm

Sword of Geddon,

I understand theories abound.

I have put forth the theory that the description of the beasts describe the geography of the empire or kingdom represented by the beast and that we can be certain that we have correctly identified a kingdom as one of the beasts if the geography of the kingdom matches the description of the beast. I have posted various maps showing a few beasts to back this up.

You have expressed the opinion that I am misleading people. That is a pretty serious accusation.

Now I am asking you to provide the readers a better explanation of what the description of the beasts mean.
You have said the scriptures explain themselves. I am asking you to show me and the readers where in the scriptures the meaning of the various descriptions are explained. To simplifiy things, I am only asking you to explain the meaning of the first prophectic beast in Daniel 7.

What does it mean the beast had wings?
What does it mean that the wings were torn off?
What does it mean that the beast was given two legs to stand as a man?
What does it mean the beast was given the heart of a man?

If you cannot answer these questions when I can answer them, how can you accuse me of misleading people?

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Sword of Geddon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:16 pm

I wasn't saying your misleading people. I was saying that I am wary of codes and hidden meanings for things, as that is normally the domain of the occult. I associated your map with such. I think the bible is easy to comprehend if you have understanding.

What does it mean the beast had wings?

Wings could mean offshoots, or sections of the empire, that were taken or lost to the Lion. The lion has long been the symbol of England, and the eagle a symbol for America. America was once part of england, so when America broke away from England, England lost the eagle wings.

What does it mean that the wings were torn off?


See above


What does it mean that the beast was given two legs to stand as a man?


Unknown. I would imagine that it has something to do with the significance that mankind standing upright holds. Perhaps it means that the lion empire was sovereign, king among nations. If this is England, than that was true for centuries, as England had the largest Empire in the world(It still holds that distinction). At one point, England controlled territory and ruled people on all six inhabited continents.

What does it mean the beast was given the heart of a man?

Perhaps this could mean that the lion held a high standard of morality. That would be my best guess. If this beast is England, than it would make sense since England spread its values across the world.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:15 am

Sword of Geddon,

I had to chuckle when I read your thoughts about the maps being an occult type of interpretation.

Actually, the map interpretation is a "Literal" interpretation of the prophecies. I don't much like all the guesswork at the meaning of the prophecies found in the commentaries. I developed this "Literal" interpretation because what I have read in the commentaries did not ring true to me.

I say this is a "Literal" interpretation.
Let me explain, again using only the first beast for brevity sake ...

We have three verses in Daniel 7 that support this "Literal" interpretation. They are:

Daniel 7: 4, 17, 23
4The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


What we understand from scripture is that "beast", "king", and "kingdom" are interchangeable words.
Therefore, according to scripture, these three wordings of verse 4 are accurate.
1. The first [beast] was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

2. The first [king] was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

3. The first [kingdom] was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Statement number 3 can be understood to describe the geography of the kingdom and can be represented on a map. Thus, if we can find a map of a kingdom that resembles a lion with eagles wings that were later torn off and the lion was given two legs and man's heart, then we can safely say we have correctly identified the kingdom to which the verse 4 is referring.

That is what I have done with the first beast. It was the Kingdom of Media that looked like a lion with wings and it was the changes in geography of the kingdom brought about Cyrus the Great's conquests that resembled the original winged lion with its wings torn off and given two legs like a man. As to the "heart of man given to it", this describes the new king Cyrus the Great and this is supported by his reputation as a humanitarian and his decision to allow the Jews to return home.

Thus, we have a very simple "Literal" interpretation for verse 4 which is evidenced by history and it can be proven today in the historical maps of Media and Cyrus the Great's conquests.

In conclusion, when we want to understand the beast prophecies, we literally substitute "kingdom" [or geopolitical entity] for "beast" [or whatever the image appears as], find the geopolitical map fitting the image, and when we have a match we can be certain we have identified the image properly.

Hope this helps you get past seeing this an occult interpretation.

Keith


PS. Here are the maps again so you can take another look.

Median Empire before Cyrus's conquest.

Expansion of Cyrus and other Acheamenid emperors.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Sword of Geddon on Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:16 pm

Persia being an end-time player would make sense.

I think I heard it mentioned that the seven heads of the beast empire represent both the rulers of the empire and also past empires, in order of the head and timeframe:


-1. Egyptian Empire
-2. Babylonian Empire
-3. Assyrian Empire
-4. Persian Empire
-5. Greek Empire
6. Roman Empire(Empire that "now is" as of John's writings)
7. ????(Empire that once was, and now is again, the antichrist's empire)

Possible 7th Empires:

Ottomon Empire/Islamic Caliphate: I believe this empire at its height was larger than the Roman Empire. It would fit the pattern with each empire being larger than the previous. It also was once in existence, and if it returned, the Islamic Caliphate would forfill the "now is again" prophecy. It would also be Middle East centric, which is the case for most Bible prophecies.

English Empire: Although they controled the largest territory at the height of British power, I don't believe the Brits are the beast kingdom.

American Empire: One could argue America is a revived Rome, America does share many things on purpose with the ROmans, such as the Eagle, the Roman-style capital, and it would fit with carrying over traditions from previous empires...consider the obelisks such as the washinton monument, or the greek goddesses depicted on the surpreme court building.

While you definitely can identify the other beasts by the description, the fourth beast, or beast from the earth, is different. It is identified by the clues John left in his identifiying of the seven heads, as well as Daniel's writings.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Spreading Salt on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:56 am

If I might interject here with my own observation.

Keith, I have seen this information before and it is truly compelling.

Sword, I have come to appreciate that God is very much alive and He is at work in so many areas through the hearts of His people. He can be seen in numbers, stars, His Word, His creation, names, music, and maps to name a few. Don't be too quick to "throw the baby out with the bath water" when you first come across an opinion or idea that you don't quite recognize. Yes, it is wise to be cautious and ask for discernment as that pesky devil continues to thwart and taint that which God has made and displayed for good.

It is fascinating to me how God continues to reveal Himself to us. We all see through a mirror darkly, but one day it will all be made clear.

Have a blessed day, SS :backtotopic:
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:56 am

Spreading Salt, Thank you. It is compelling.

Sword of Geddon, Yes, the fourth beast of Daniel cannot be identified using this method as there is no description that lends itself to visualization on a map. Fortunately, we were left other clues. However, Mystery Babylon, the beast from the abyss, the seven hills, and the lamb do lend themselves to this interpretation. The fact that the first three beasts of Daniel can be understood quite well using maps lends support that the Mystery Babylon Prophecy may also be understood using maps. Because the prophecy of fourth beast of Daniel 4 does not lend itself to interpretation using maps while the beast from the abyss does lend itself to this interpretation suggests the beast from the abyss ridden by Mystery Babylon and the fourth beast of Daniel 7 are probably not the same beast.

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:44 pm

hello

Pictures and images of the four beasts become meaningless because our understanding of them is faulty.

The beasts have no "kingdom" as such but they do exercise dominion over different people groups and as such they manifest themselves within these said people groups. In saying that the beasts manifest themselves with the different people groups that inhabit their domain, it should be understood that the people groups that inhabit their domain exhibiting characteristics of the respective beasts.

By trying to identify the people groups that inhabit the domain of the respective beasts and then saying that there is the "kingdom" of that beast is pure foolishness.

I have been considering that the five segments of the Statue of Daniel 2 and the property/characteristics of each of the five segments of the statue described respectively as,1. - Gold, 2. - Silver, 3. - Bronze, 4. - Iron and 5. - Iron and clay mixed together. Now it seems to me that the respective characteristics of the four beasts of Daniel 7 are: - 1. Gold, 2. - Silver, 3. - Bronze and 4. - Iron where the iron is the characteristic/property of Islam. Now the Clay is a characteristic/property of the present "Christian" community and in Daniel 2, it too will be ground into dust and blown away when the Messianic Dominion of Christ is established here on earth.

Perhaps even our present understanding of who the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue represents is off base where some consider that it is the Roman Empire while others suggest that it is the "Islamic "Empire." Our understanding of who the fifth segment represents is also suspect.

Perhaps if we accept that the Statue represents five time period within the land of the Chaldeans and the respective powers/people groups who have had/will have dominion over the said land of the Chaldeans from the time of Neb.

It is also incredulous to us that the prophecy has a time span of some 2,500 or so years and for around 2,000 or so years the land of the Chaldeans was desolate and devastated and for some of this period, the Roman Empire exercised dominion over much of the then known world at that time except for the Land of the Chaldeans.

Now the beast represented by the Bronze, is recognisable within many countries that exist today and many countries may also inhabited the domain of more than one beast such that any diagram representing the domains of the respective beasts will have vast areas of their respective domains overlapping.

Perhaps we within the "Christian Domain" today are in great need of a “new paradigm” that can better explain the prophecies with our scared scriptures.

Shalom

Jay Ross

PS: - Perhaps our respected prophecy scholars who provide much of our understanding today are in error and need a revelation to bring correction.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:07 pm

Jay Ross,

I have to disagree with you here.
The scriptures are pretty clear in Daniel 7 that the beasts are kings and kingdoms.

Have you considered ...
Kings have dominions over which they excersize their rule else they would not be kings.
Thus King-Dominion becomes "kingdom" for short.

Also, I am not arguing for or against any correlation between the prophecies of the four beasts in Daniel 7 and Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue in chapter 2. As Nebuchadzzar was no longer King of Babylon, thus making the head of Gold already a thing of the past when Daniel had the vision of the prophecy of the beasts in Chapter 7, it is clear that some years passed between the prophecies. I have no reason to correlate them. Again, I am not arguing one way or another, I simply accept that they may or may not be about the same kingdoms.

If I were to try to make an argument one way or the other, I would first identify each beast kingdom and each kingdom representing part of the statue clearly, providing proof for each, then see if they were the same kingdoms.

Keith

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Douggg on Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:23 pm

Mark F wrote:I don't find that the look on a map is going to be something God would use to describe who these nations are.

Daniel 7 is a vision with the beasts, a lion, a bear, and a leopard, the fourth beast has ten horns,I believe that they are the same as the scarlet beast that the woman rides in Revelation 17, same red beast with seven heads and ten horns of Rev 12, same seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 13.

Rev 12:3 has a beast with seven heads and ten horns, it is also firey red.
Rev 13:1-2 mentions this seven headed, ten horned beast again, Satan gave the beast his throne in verse 2, Jesus said that Satan's throne is in Pergamos, Rev. 2:13. That's in present day Turkey.

I believe that the fourth beast is the Ottoman Empire, they were based in Turkey. It's all the same firey red beast.


Mark, you have missed it. In Revelation 17 and 12, the beast is in the bottomless pit. He doesn't ascend out until there are 42 months left to go, in Revelation 13. Thus, in Revelation 17 and 12, because the beast himself is in the bottomless pit, the description of the beast is identified with Satan, the power behind the beast. Satan, himself, has never been in the bottomless pit.

The description in Revelation 13 is not that of a firey red beast or dragon, but the dual representation of the Antichrist beast (the beast has ascended out of the pit) and the fourth empire with 42 months left in the 7 years. There is no firey red beast in Revelation 13.

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:08 pm

Thought I would bump this back to the first page and see if anyone has considered the econimic turmoil in the EU may in the years to come lead to civil war.

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Douggg on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:59 am

keithareilly wrote:Thought I would bump this back to the first page and see if anyone has considered the econimic turmoil in the EU may in the years to come lead to civil war.

Keith


Hi Keith, Europe is what everyone should be watching, imo. But I don't think you are going to see any kind of civil war between countries of the EU.

What the crisis is about is long term borrowing of the individual countries to operate their governments. The weaker countries that really don't have manufacturing industries, compared to stronger countries like Germany, don't produce as many goods and services - which is GDP, Gross Domestic Product, a measurement of the economy.

So they have been borrowing to the point that they don't have the ability to repay the borrowed money, nor the interest that has been exponentially accumulating. When those countries borrow money, the way they do it is to issue bonds (of debt) that promises the buyer of those bonds that they are going to pay them back plus some interest. The interest is the incentive of the buyers of the bonds to buy them.

So who are the buyers of Greek bonds? Well it is the big banks in the other EU countries mainly, plus some investors around the world. In the EU, the banks in the individual countries are holding bonds of other EU countries. So if a country like Greece defaults, cannot make the monthly payment (like your credit card payment, those bonds become devalued to nothing. Thus, some of those investor bank may fail; that is, the non performing bonds are no longer assets on their books, and they don't have enough money on hand to be considered solvent - which is just another way of saying they could not give savings account holders back their money if enough of them decided to withdraw their money.

If enough of the savings account holders (checking account holders etc.) decide to pull their money out all at once in a panic, that is called a "run". And the bank can't pay. So they close their doors. 1929 style.

Because all of the countries of the EU are holding each others' debt, the fear is one country like Greece might trigger a domino effect bringing down the banking system of the other EU countries. They particular fear is called "contagion" in the news when talking about the EU money crisis.

At root of the problem is the politicians in the individual countries make polices that add to the inherent problems of borrowing money to operate their governments, rather than operating on debt free budget. The policy issue is called "fiscal" policy, and the accusation is that countries like Greece have operated on irresponsible "fiscal" policy.... like a person overspending on a credit card way above their means.

So the Europeans are pushing for a central authority to approve/disapprove fiscal policies of the individual countries. That means giving up sovereignty of the members states. Which is the big obstacle. But from bible prophecy, it appears that is exactly what is going to happen. A central authority, a power, to rule over the member states of the EU which can control the fiscal policy of the member countries directly. Which, imo, will have the power to remove heads of state for infractions. Which will be done by the little horn... the Antichrist when he first comes to the fore front.

Right now we don't have central authority in the EU with that kind of power. But that is what to watch for as I think we are very close.

imo, because the Antichrist will in his first stage of his career be the little horn, and then the Prince who shall come, the perceived messiah to Israel, when Gog/Magog attacks. I think Europe will front run the Gog/Magog event. As that is also forming.

Back to civil war in Europe. No, not imo. But in the individual countries themselves, there will be riots against those governments at they implement austerity programs in order to continue to borrow money. The bond holders are the ones pressuring the Greeks. And the bond holders, the big portion of them, are the bankers of Europe. What they want is for the European governments to come up with ways to keep Greece, and other similar countries, from defaulting.
The problem for Greeks is that those austerity policies affect an entire generation of Greeks, because it is no quick fix, or even a fix, but kicking the can down the road, so to speak. So the Greeks are rioting, really mad at their governments as tightening goes into effect.


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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:27 am

Doug,

As for civil war in EU, I don't see it soon but do see it. What I see right now is the consolidation of economic power in what used to be the 10 full member WEU countries. They will control the rest economically then militarily.

Rev 17:16
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

First the 10 countries will bring the others to ruin and naked, taking everything (economic pillaging), then eating her flesh and burning her with fire (hot warfare).

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Mark F on Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:14 pm

Douggg wrote:
Mark F wrote:I don't find that the look on a map is going to be something God would use to describe who these nations are.

Daniel 7 is a vision with the beasts, a lion, a bear, and a leopard, the fourth beast has ten horns,I believe that they are the same as the scarlet beast that the woman rides in Revelation 17, same red beast with seven heads and ten horns of Rev 12, same seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 13.

Rev 12:3 has a beast with seven heads and ten horns, it is also firey red.
Rev 13:1-2 mentions this seven headed, ten horned beast again, Satan gave the beast his throne in verse 2, Jesus said that Satan's throne is in Pergamos, Rev. 2:13. That's in present day Turkey.

I believe that the fourth beast is the Ottoman Empire, they were based in Turkey. It's all the same firey red beast.


Mark, you have missed it. In Revelation 17 and 12, the beast is in the bottomless pit. He doesn't ascend out until there are 42 months left to go, in Revelation 13. Thus, in Revelation 17 and 12, because the beast himself is in the bottomless pit, the description of the beast is identified with Satan, the power behind the beast. Satan, himself, has never been in the bottomless pit.

The description in Revelation 13 is not that of a firey red beast or dragon, but the dual representation of the Antichrist beast (the beast has ascended out of the pit) and the fourth empire with 42 months left in the 7 years. There is no firey red beast in Revelation 13.

Doug


Ok the beast of chapter 13 isn't firery red, but I am sure that there are not multiple seven headed beasts with ten horns that rise up......just different attributes being mentioned.
Mark

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Douggg on Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:32 am

Mark F wrote:
Douggg wrote:
Mark F wrote:I don't find that the look on a map is going to be something God would use to describe who these nations are.

Daniel 7 is a vision with the beasts, a lion, a bear, and a leopard, the fourth beast has ten horns,I believe that they are the same as the scarlet beast that the woman rides in Revelation 17, same red beast with seven heads and ten horns of Rev 12, same seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 13.

Rev 12:3 has a beast with seven heads and ten horns, it is also firey red.
Rev 13:1-2 mentions this seven headed, ten horned beast again, Satan gave the beast his throne in verse 2, Jesus said that Satan's throne is in Pergamos, Rev. 2:13. That's in present day Turkey.

I believe that the fourth beast is the Ottoman Empire, they were based in Turkey. It's all the same firey red beast.


Mark, you have missed it. In Revelation 17 and 12, the beast is in the bottomless pit. He doesn't ascend out until there are 42 months left to go, in Revelation 13. Thus, in Revelation 17 and 12, because the beast himself is in the bottomless pit, the description of the beast is identified with Satan, the power behind the beast. Satan, himself, has never been in the bottomless pit.

The description in Revelation 13 is not that of a firey red beast or dragon, but the dual representation of the Antichrist beast (the beast has ascended out of the pit) and the fourth empire with 42 months left in the 7 years. There is no firey red beast in Revelation 13.

Doug


Ok the beast of chapter 13 isn't firery red, but I am sure that there are not multiple seven headed beasts with ten horns that rise up......just different attributes being mentioned.


Hi Mark, I agree that there is only one beast (with seven heads and ten horns in Revelation). The attributes change according to what point in time the beast is being viewed.

Revelation 17, First century - the actual beast is in the bottomless pit, John doesn't see him directly. Satan is seen because Satan, the power behind the beast, is not in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 12, with 7 years left - the actual beast is still in the bottomless pit, John doesn't see him directly. Satan as the fiery red dragon, the power behind the beast, is seen instead.

Revelation 13, with 42 months left - the actual beast (spirit form) has ascended out of the bottomless pit and is possessing the slain/recovered 7th head end times Antichrist man of sin.


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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Tevye on Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:23 am

Watch the middle east...
the king of the north and
of the south must be re-established
in order to continue the prophetic storyline
of Daniel chapter 11 and 12...

When they are established as "kings"
then the stage will be set for the final beast empire.
(an empire that will within an hour be formed)

We may be seeing the begining of these kings
at least the king of the south, in Egypt.

The final most terrifying beast will
arise up from the abyss and go
to his destruction...
(or to his desolation?)
that he will cause in Jerusalem.
He will arise in power along with 10 kings
once the events that are intended to be fulfilled
as prophesied through the vision to Daniel, happen.

“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who
have not yet received a kingdom, but who
for one hour
will receive authority as kings along with the beast.
They have one purpose and will give their power
and authority to the beast."
Revelation 17

10 will be given authority as kings
as they align themselves with each other

The final beast empire will be made up of
10 kings of 7 empires that have dominated
Israel throughout history..

What 7 empires will the 10 horns be from...?

Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and Germany?
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:15 am

Tevye,

Are you suggesting the ten kings are not from the nations that make up the beast ?
I had not thought of that interpretation. Interesting.

As you saw the map was for the ten full member of the WEU who now make up the defense force of the Lisben treaty.
It is difficult to understand the status but the treaty indicates the members of the defense organization must approve another member state joing the group and that state must first meet a criteria. Mostly, I think the financial requirements for meeting the military obligations necessary to gain memebrship in the group may not be worth the effort for most countries.

The "As kings" is not surprising. Notice the heads in revelation 17 are not crowned. I believe this means that we are looking at some other form of government than a monarchy.


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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:08 pm

For those who contest this interpretation saying Babylon is a city, not an alliance of countries, I include the following which I have also added to the second entry of this topic.

Babylon the city: The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn (Rev 18:11): Brussels, Belgium, the capital of the EU, where many of its government institutions, as well as world government institutions, reside is also a port city (See: http://www.portdebruxelles.be/en/0/. This port city, also being the government seat, will be destroyed during war.

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:13 pm

Considering what is going on with Russia and the Ukraine and the worldwide drawback of the U.S. ...

1) Europe is likely to strengthen its military,
2) Tensions between the EU and Russia can no longer be thought of as a thing of the past,
3) As the EU discourages Christianity, Russia will likely continue to proclaim its defense.
4) The stage is being set for war between the EU and Russia,

I see these things as being in line with this interpretation of the woman riding the beast prophecy.

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:22 pm

Bump.

With the Russian and Ukraine issue, I think we are witnessing on oncoming division in Europe over what to do.

Anybody willing to reconsider what I have put forward?

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby brett on Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:30 pm

Just adding my 2 cents, I don't think this is going to help much with interpreting prophecy. The shapes made by the nations in those maps above are not that convincing, I think you are stretching this theory a little too far. Its a curious and interesting theory, but I don't think you should read too much into it.

To be fair you must admit, in those maps, that's one horribly deranged Beast and one seriously ugly woman !! :wink:
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:21 am

Brett,

Were I a better artist, I could present this better. Working on that now.

What I find interesting is that Europe is named after Europa in the myth of Europa Riding the Bull (Zeus).
It is curious that Europe, when colored according to the ten countries with the military alliance of the WEU, actually resembles a woman riding a beast. I don't think this is a coincidence.

When I first saw this, I thought as you do - not likely just a coincidence. So I studied the beasts of Daniel to see if they can be interpreted the same way and yes they can.

Interestingly, To my knowledge, this is the only literal interpretation of Daniel's beast and the woman riding a beast of which I am aware.

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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Straightshot on Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:46 pm

Response to the OP

The symbolism of the "woman" called Mystery Babylon the great in Revelation represents the entire unbelieving world at the end of this present age .... she is an adulterous who is unfaithful to her Maker

The "city" at her core has grown enormous from the days when men began to build cities in the Tigris/Euphrates River valley shortly after the flood .... the human motivation of this behavior is to escape the Lord's governance and direction, and to rule themselves [Genesis 10; 11]

The city creates a false sense of security and at the same time incubates human depravities exemplifying the sinful nature of unregenerate men

This condition is the hallmark of the earth at the time of the end and the "woman" has spread herself all over the globe with interconnect cities of the nations .... and she has a "great city" with controlling influence over the rest primarily in terms of economic trade, business, commerce, materialism, finance, production, and all of the evils that accompany the merchandising of her wares

These distractions keep her from seeking the Lord for knowledge of the true meanings of His eternal purposes

Read about her here [Revelation 18:1-21] she has been around since the days of the post flood culture and still engages in the collective behavior of a world gone astray and against the Lord's purposes .... but her ending is coming and all of her insatiable desires will be destroyed [Psalms 2; Matthew 24:36-39; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17; 14:8; 8:6-12; 17:16-18] .... and her "great city" will never rise again

At the time of the end she will be dominating the Middle Eastern kingdom of Satan's beast in the human little horn of Daniel's visions .... a divided and mixed kingdom of iron and clay [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 11:36-45; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18] .... and the little horn and his 10 appointed kings will hate the "great city" and her world wide dominance, and they will turn on her and destroy her in one day

This action will cause devastating upheaval across the earth and create a blade runner society in all of her members

Satan's ambition will be to use his Middle Eastern beast with intent to destroy human existence on the planet [Revelation 12:12], but he will fall short at the hands of God's furry who will use this devil in His judgment process against unregenerate humans, and then turn on the kingdom of his beast, the human little horn, and followers and destroy them at the battle of Armageddon [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39; Revelation 14:14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

Satan's entire ploy will buried and he will be sent to the abyss for 1000 years

The stage for this drama is setting up as we speak and it will be a Muslim Caliph [Abaddon/Apollyon in the little horn] and his Middle Eastern Islamic kingdom who will make the fatal mistake of attacking the Lord's nation of Israel .... and the Lord will come and take back the earth for the ruling of the same himself

Watch the current Middle Eastern confusion of Islam morph into the kingdom of the little horn that is coming .... this one will rise out of the Syria/Iraq convergence in the same core of the ancient Assyrian Empire [Micah 5:5-6]
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:45 am

Here is an updated picture of the 10 nation alliance; the beast from the sea (Abyss).
It is Macron's 10 nations not the WEU 10 nations.
Macron's alliance is to include the British even if Brexit goes through.
It may change again depending on finalization.
Interestingly, if the British leave the EU, then this alliance reflects another agenda than does the EU. These diverging agendas may contribute to the war between the beast and the harlot.

Click here to see image
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:51 pm

This is an updated image of the Rev 17 Prophecy.

Ten Beast countries in brown. (Macron's proposed 10 nation military Alliance)
The Abyss in light blue. (Oceans, seas, gulfs. Out of which the beast comes.)
Harlot countries in Red. (EU countries not part of Macron's military alliance)
Seven Hills countries in Green. (upon which the harlot sits, not part of the EU)
Lamb countries in yellow (Russia) and light yellow (Norway). Different yellows because I don't know if they will make an alliance.

The beast first wages war on the Harlot. It starts through economical policies, then advances to military warfare; an upcoming civil war in the EU. This war spreads to war with the Lamb countries. It is likely during a civil war, Russia, a lamb country, will back the harlot countries not the beast countries resulting in the beast countries expanding into war with Russia.

Note: Previously, Croatia was one of the green hill countries. Croatia has joined the EU countries and is now a red country. Originally, I counted the Bosnia and Herzegovina Federation as only one of the hills; now I count the federation as two hills. But it still shows on the map as only one because the map shows the federation. So, you'll see six hills not seven. The left most green country is the Bosnia and Herzegovina federation. I like it better because I never liked counting the federation as a single country. There is a reason why it is called Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The Forum limits the size; So the complete lamb is hard to see. Click here to see the Full Picture


Image
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:10 pm

Wow, Keith, that's quite straightforward and understandable.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Ready1 on Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:35 pm

I cannot open your link.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:41 pm

Ready1 wrote:I cannot open your link.



Yea, Mark told me he can't see these either.
I need a better place than Google to store the images.
Or perhaps some setting changes...
Any recommendations?
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:37 pm

I did get the last image up when I went to delete the internet page. So it could be for any number of reasons.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:25 pm

You know what they say!

To err is human. To really make a mess of things you need a computer.

:eek:
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. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:20 am

I have made some updates in an attempt to make the image and link available to all.
If you are still having problems, please let me know.

Thanks, Keith
keithareilly
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Re: Woman Riding Beast Alternative Meaning

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:48 am

GodsStudent wrote:Wow, Keith, that's quite straightforward and understandable.


Thanks,

Sometimes, a picture is worth a 1000 words.
keithareilly
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:59 am

GodsStudent,

Do you see the gold cup in her hand?
keithareilly
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