Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:08 am

keithareilly wrote:The beast does not form any kind of beast we know. If it were to resemble a lion it would be described as a lion. If it resembled a bear it would be described as a bear. Because it is just prophesied as a [unknown] beast, we should not expect it to resemble any known animal.


Hi Keith,

Thanks for the outstanding explanation!

Let me say that I am so very glad that you mentioned what you have concerning the description of the Beast - as it is an "unknown beast".

This Woman Riding the Beast has long been depicted as a woman riding a bull in Greek Mythology, as mention in the link that I provided. I'm happy to see that you didn't take it there.

In viewing the Book of Revelation, which is "highly symbolic" I see this particular prophecy as "Beast Nations."
However, there are many who see a literal "False Prophet" & an Antichrist - relating to the Beast of the Earth & Sea but I don't see that. I do however, clearly see a single man described as coming from the Earth.

I think that it is important that you have brought up this Woman Riding the Beast theory, as if true - it will literally show that we are becoming close to the Return of Christ. I believe wholeheartedly that many, many people just know, or don't pay attention to event's that are happening as it relates to Bible Prophecy - even believers in Christ.

When I think about End Times, my mind always goes back to the fact that Jesus warned us to be ready. So many things are happening. He gave us many, many warnings that we would not know the day or the hour. I wholeheartedly believe that He will very literally appear in the Sky; unawares to anyone - and it will be the Last Day.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:28 am

Mr Baldy,

Thanks for your encouragement. Recently, I have been thinking about just keeping these things to myself as many tell me I am obsessed and should pay more attention to the Gospels and ignore prophecy.

Also, Thank you for your inquires. It helps me see things of which I had not considered and it helps me understand how difficult it is for others to see what I see. I have been researching this a long time so my mind has grown accustom to seeing images in lots of things where I did not previously see them. I hope the beast and woman image I provided previously helped you see what I am seeing.

It would be nice if one of our viewers with good artistic skills saw what I saw and decided to draw a clearer image so that others could also see. :boink:


Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:44 pm

Hungarian PM Sees Shift to Illiberal Christian Democracy in 2019 European Vote

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban said on Saturday that European parliament elections next year could bring about a shift toward illiberal "Christian democracy" in the European Union that would end the era of multiculturalism.

The right-wing nationalist Orban, re-elected in April to a third consecutive term, has spearheaded eastern European resistance to EU moves to have member states accept asylum seekers and migrants under a quota system.

Along with Poland's nationalist government, he has been in constant conflict with the European Commission, the EU's executive, over what Brussels calls an erosion of democratic institutions in formerly communist east European countries.

He said the Western political "elite" of the EU had failed to protect the bloc from Muslim immigration and it was time for them to go. "The European elite is visibly nervous," Orban told hundreds of cheering supporters.

"Their big goal to transform Europe, to ship it into a post-Christian era, and into an era when nations disappear - this process could be undermined in the European elections. And it is our elementary interest to stop this transformation."


Remarks delivered at the European Council on Foreign Relations - George Soros
The European Union is in an existential crisis. Everything that could go wrong has gone wrong. First I will briefly explain how this happened and then I will explore what can be done to reverse the trend.

...

But since the financial crisis of 2008 theEuropean Union seems to have lost its way. It adopted a program of fiscal retrenchment which led to the euro crisis. This transformed the Eurozone into a relationship between creditors and debtors where the creditors set the conditions that the debtors had to meet. The debtors couldn’t meet those conditions and that created a relationship that is neither voluntary nor equal.

As a result, many young people today regard the European Union as an enemy that has deprived them of jobs and a secure and promising future. Populist politicians exploited the resentments and formed anti-European parties and movements.

...

But my main point is that an existential crisis is no longer a figure of speech but the harsh reality. Europe needs to do something drastic to escape it. It needs to reinvent itself.

That is what President Macron sought to initiate by proposing what he calls Citizens’ Consultations. This initiative needs to be a genuinely grassroots effort. The transformation of the Coal and Steel Community into the European Union was a top-down effort and it worked wonders. But times have changed. Ordinary people feel excluded and ignored. Now we need a collaborative effort that combines the top-down approach of the European institutions with the bottom-up initiatives that are necessary to engage the electorate.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:55 pm

Macron Champions EU as Nationalist Currents Evoke ‘Civil War’
French President Emmanuel Macron gave an unabashed defense of the European Union in its political heart, urging the bloc to reject nationalism, deepen integration and promote free trade in the face of U.S. protectionism.
...
Macron dismissed anti-EU politicians such as Brexit-champion Nigel Farage of the U.K. Independence Party, comparing them to religious fanatics who “stoke passions” and criticize without offering concrete solutions.

“All of this is terribly wrong,” Macron said. “People haven’t given up on Europe. It’s the treachery of the clerics that have done this.”


Well now. Pro EU supra-nationalist Leader Macron opposes nationalists as if they were "religious fanatics" then blames things on "the treachery of the clerics". A popular leader making religion the enemy.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:50 pm

A progression of the images to assist people in seeing what I see.

A Map similar to what I imagined after viewing a map of the EU in the Wall Street Journal in the early 2000's
This Map is similar to what I "saw" many years ago. It took me some time to discover this was not the correct image. In particular, trying to find the hills upon which she sits is impossible with this view. However, this view is very striking and because of it I started this study. At the time, it was thought Turkey would become an EU country.

Just the Beast from the Abyss
These are the ten nations of Macron's proposed Military Alliance. They appear to be some kind of beast beaking the surface of the Deep Ocean or Sea (Abyss). The animal faces down to the left, South West, and has head, neck, two legs and a fin on his back sticking out above the water. His lower half appears to be still submerged under water while a tail appears to be breaking the surface in the North East. I see this as some unknown animal breaking the surface of the water. In other words: "Rising from the Abyss". The beast has been colored in RED because the prophecy says the beast is scarlet.

Just the Woman with the Golden Cup and Jewelry
These are the nations of the EU which are not part of Macron's ten nation military alliance. These nations have been colored in Purple according to the prophecy. The prophecy actually states she is wearing purple and scarlet. Notice, in the subsequent pictures, Estonia is red (Scarlet) not purple, Estonia forms both part of the Beast and part of the Harlot. Observe the islands in the Baltic have been colored Green to represent the Jewelry she is described as wearing. Latvia and part of Russia form the Golden Cup. Latvia is a place of sex tourism where people fly to from other areas. Hence Latvia forms the Golden Cup which is described as full of filthiness and fornication.

The Harlot Riding The Beast
A combination of the two pictures. Notice in this picture the the Harlot is clothed in both purple and scarlet. Estonia is colored in in scarlet because it is a beast nation. Because Estonia makes up part of the harlot as well, the harlot is clothed in both purple and scarlet.

Harlot Sitting on Seven Hills
The Seven Hills are: 1,2) Boznia and Herzegovina, 3) Serbia, 4) Montenegro, 5) Kosovo, 6)Albania, 7) FYROM (Macedonia)
Boznia and Herzegovina are a federation.

Woman Riding Beast Sitting on Seven Hills
Countries and borders added.

Woman Riding Beast, Sitting on Seven Hills, and The Lamb
In this picture you can see the woman riding the beast, the seven hills upon which she sits, and the Lamb. The seven hills are the Balkan countries. Note, one of them is a federation of two countries; therefore, you only see six countries. Russia and Norway form the Lamb but Norway and Russia do not at this time have a military alliance. So, the Lamb may actually be only Russia, which forms most of the Lamb. I have include the borders and country names on this map because without them the seven hills blend together. Also, displaying boarders and names shows how the previous maps represent European countries.

Current Political Situation
This map represents the current political situation where Italy currently refuses to join the ten nation alliance. Luxembourg may replaces Italy in the alliance. Interestingly, with Italy on the Harlot side, The round micro states might be the peals. Also, it is a bit more harlot like with open legs.

An Alternative Interpretation of Rev 17:12-13
This map represents an alternative interpretation. In previous maps I have colored in the beast based upon those countries which are part of the military alliance. This map treats the beast and the military alliance as separate distinct entities. Rev 17:12-13 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one [h]purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. This verse says the 10 horns give their power to the beast. It does not say the ten horns are the beast. Consequently, equating the beast with the ten nation may actually be a mistake. This interpretation implies we will not know who is on what side of an EU civil war until the war is waged. It also shows more nations whose geography was once part of the Roman Empire as part of the beast. Croatia's status on the map is prior to 2013, when it joined the EU; in this image, Croatia is part of the seven hills, not the EU.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:01 pm

Bump.

I have posted, in the previous post, some maps that represents the progress of how the final map came into being. It has taken me a few days; so, some of you may have not seen all the maps posted above.

Please let me know if this helps.

Thanks,

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 2:55 pm

keithareilly wrote:An Alternative Interpretation of Rev 17:12-13This map represents an alternative interpretation. In previous maps I have colored in the beast based upon those countries which are part of the military alliance. This map treats the beast and the military alliance as separate distinct entities. Rev 17:12-13 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13 These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast. This verse says the 10 horns give their power to the beast. It does not say the ten horns are the beast. Consequently, equating the beast with the ten nation may actually be a mistake. This interpretation implies we will not know who is on what side of an EU civil war until the war is waged. It also shows more nations whose geography was once part of the Roman Empire as part of the beast. Croatia's status on the map is prior to 2013, when it joined the EU; in this image, Croatia is part of the seven hills, not the EU.


Hi Keith,

First of all, I'd like to thank you for the maps - and your theory based on how you view current events may apply to what you are recording.

However, I wholeheartedly disagree with your aforementioned analogy. You mention that "It does not say the ten horns are the beast." Well Scripture does not have to say that the ten horns are the Beast in order for these Nations to be "A PART OF THE BEAST" - and this is where I think that you may be in error. Perhaps this 10 Nation Confederacy was the "only" Military Forces having the capacity of making war or responding to "emergency crisis" type situations, and it's sovereignty had to be completely relinquished in order to establish Total BEAST Unity? Perhaps a closer view of the Lisbon Treaty is in order? And again, I must say that I am not convinced that the EU will ever have a "civil war" - although infighting will be apparent as this Fourth and Final Kingdom before the Return of Christ comes together.

I would like to learn how your analogy would change if you discovered that the 10 WEU Nations, even though they have given up their authority to the Beast - just may be one and the same as the Beast?
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:21 pm

Mr Baldy wrote
I would like to learn how your analogy would change if you discovered that the 10 WEU Nations, even though they have given up their authority to the Beast - just may be one and the same as the Beast?


That would be the Original Map with WEU 10 Nation Alliance posted on the very first post of this topic.

The original map reflects the 10 WEU nation military alliance, whereas the updates to the theory represent Macro's proposed alliance. Notice the original post is dated in March of 2012, after the Lisbon treaty went in to effect. Until April of this Year, when Macron announced another 10 nation alliance, I have been of the opinion, that the 10 nations of the WEU form the BEAST from the ABYSS. They may still form the Beast; I am not ruling that out. The recent activity on this topic was a result of a new 10 nation alliance announced by Macron. Consequently, the theory needed an update. Italy, has not yet agreed to that the new alliance, so we don't actually have a new ten nation alliance yet. It is entirely possible that the ten WEU nations decide the WEU treaty is still in effect. Especially, should the EU divide and experience civil war, a civil war might render the Lisbon treaty obsolete reverting that EU back to the Modified Brussels treaty.

Mr Baldy,

This entire theory is based upon the original WEU ten nation military alliance. Civil war and all my conclusions were based upon the WEU ten nations. None of the conclusions have changed as a consequence of Macron's ten nations alliance. The only thing that has changed are which nations form the beast and the Harlot. And those changes are minor changes as only the following nations have changed their status:

Changes from WEU verses Macron
1) Greece was part of the WEU beast, Under Macron, part of Harlot
2) Luxembourg was part of the WEU Beast, Under Macron, part of the Harlot
3) Denmark was part of the WEU Harlot, Now part of Macron's beast
4) Estonia was part of the WEU Harlot, now part of Macron's Beast
5) Croatia was part of the seven hills under the WEU, They are part of the Harlot since Joining the EU in 2013

Who is a member of the beast, the hills, and the harlot are the only things that have changed. My conclusions have not changed. The beast hates the Harlot and burns her with fire (Hot War), The beast wages war with the Lamb and loses.

Revelation 17:14a,16
14a [ War with Russia] “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them,
16 [Civil War, beast wages war on harlot] "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.


The minor changes to the nations that make up the beast, the hills, and the harlot do not affect my conclusions.

Regarding "The Alternate Interpretation"
I do not think the alternate interpretation is correct. I think the beast is formed by the ten nation alliance and the remainder of the nations form the Harlot. That is my opinion. However, I have to be diligent and recognize that my conclusion are conclusion and may be wrong. I have to be honest and point out any alternatives that also meets the scriptures wording. If I fail to point out the alternatives, then I am choosing to wear colored glasses and refusing to see what might also exist. I want my eyes open to all possibilities; I don't want to shut them. I want to be honest with my brothers and sisters about where I might be wrong.

By the way. You are the only other person addressing this theory. We do not have to agree. And I do consider what you have to say and I am open to different viewpoints. To date you have contributed this fact: The WEU ten nation alliance have already given their power to the Beast. In fact, the ten WEU nations have given their power to the entire EU which is made up of the Beast and the Harlot. What I think is that at some point in the future, we will have a leader who will emerge to whom the ten nations give their military power and that leader will use that military power against the nations that form the Harlot. Is it considered civil war if we have only one leader waging war and the Harlot nations are not prepared or able to retaliate? Is that still civil war? Yes, I think so. Even if the harlot nations do not have the power to resist the nations that have military power, if the EU countries with military power "burn her with fire" then I think that constitutes civil war. Even if that war is over in a single day.



Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:15 pm

Mr Baldy,

Did the new maps help you see the beast, the harlot, the cup, the jewels, the hills, the Abyss, and the Lamb?

The final map is busy. I was hoping that breaking them down into less busy individual pieces would help you see each of the entities represented on the map.

Was it helpful?
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:47 pm

Mr. Baldy,

I interpret this verse as: economic war, then hot war, between the beast and the harlot.
Rev 17:16
16“And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

My Reasoning
1) On the map, the Beast countries are EU countries with a ten nation military alliance (WEU or Macron version).
2) On the map, the harlot countries are those EU countries which are not part of the ten nation military alliance.
3) Because of Revelation 17:16, I see the beast waging war on the Harlot
4) Because both the beast and harlot countries are EU countries, I see this war as a civil war.

Perhaps my interpretation is wrong, How do you interpret this verse?

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:40 am

keithareilly wrote:That would be the Original Map with WEU 10 Nation Alliance posted on the very first post of this topic.

The original map reflects the 10 WEU nation military alliance, whereas the updates to the theory represent Macro's proposed alliance. Notice the original post is dated in March of 2012, after the Lisbon treaty went in to effect. Until April of this Year, when Macron announced another 10 nation alliance, I have been of the opinion, that the 10 nations of the WEU form the BEAST from the ABYSS. They may still form the Beast; I am not ruling that out. The recent activity on this topic was a result of a new 10 nation alliance announced by Macron. Consequently, the theory needed an update. Italy, has not yet agreed to that the new alliance, so we don't actually have a new ten nation alliance yet. It is entirely possible that the ten WEU nations decide the WEU treaty is still in effect. Especially, should the EU divide and experience civil war, a civil war might render the Lisbon treaty obsolete reverting that EU back to the Modified Brussels treaty.


Hi Keith,

Thanks for the clarification. By the way, this is a very interesting outlook you have based on what Macron is proposing. I am running a bit behind this morning - but I will definitely comment on what you have written when I return home from work this afternoon. I would just like to ask you a question on your aforementioned comments however:

What would be the significance of the original 10 Nation Beast in the WEU - if it were not what we were suppose to look for?

I am not suggesting by any means that your theory is incorrect, as a matter of fact I find it quite interesting. You mentioned that it "needed an update" in light of what Marcon is doing... (More later)
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Mon Aug 06, 2018 10:17 am

Mr Baldy wrote,

What would be the significance of the original 10 Nation Beast in the WEU - if it were not what we were suppose to look for?


The ten nation alliance for which we look represents the 10 horns of revelation 17. How do we know if any particular 10 nation alliance is the one of Revelation 17 ? It has to be the one seen in the image of the prophecy. The only way to identify the 10 nation alliance is if it fits the imagery of the prophecy. The WEU ten nation alliance fits the imagery. So does the Macron version. So does "The Alternate Version". A harlot rides the beast in all images. The harlot sits on seven hills in all images, she has a golden cup full of immorality and fornication. So, not just any ten nation alliance fits the prophecy.

What we have so far are candidates.
1) The WEU ten nation alliance,
2) The Macron Ten Nation Aliance,
3) Some potential future alliance that also fits the imagery.

Which image is correct will not be known until after the complete fulfillment of the prophecy.
The only thing I have to go on right now are candidates. It would be a bad idea for me to leave off certain candidates. Why, because other viewers might have some input that raises the level of a particular candidacy. For example, the woman is adorned with stones and pearls. The micro states of Italy are represented on the map as circles. One might argue the Islands I colored in green on her neck are the stones for they are not round, the micro-states are the pearls because they are round (Note, not all pearls are round). It is a valid argument because it adheres to the description in the prophecy in greater detail than just the stones. Furthermore, Italy contains Rome, a city with seven hills, which is equated with Mystery Babylon. While, I think Brussels is a better candidate, it would be wrong for me to rule out "The Alternate Interpretation". Do I think "The Alternate Interpretation" is correct? No, but it does qualify as a candidate. Since we won't know which candidate is correct until the prophecy is completed, it would be unwise to rule it out.

So, Right now, all I have are candidates for the Beast. However, each candidate meets the requirements of the prophecy.

Now, here is something I have learned that might be helpful.
In my research of Daniel 7 beasts, I discovered that a Beast is a twofold definition. It is the King AND it is his kingdom.
So, the correct definition of the Rev 17 Beast is: a ten nation alliance during the reign of a particular ruler. The WEU treaty has been ended. Consequently, we can consider the WEU Beast no longer in existence. However, that does not mean nations forming the alliance are no longer in existence. Neither does it mean another alliance corresponding to the WEU nation alliance will not be formed in the future. Therefore, the WEU imagery is still valid. Because Italy has not yet joined Macron's alliance, we may yet see another country as part of that alliance. Alliances can span multiple rulers; one ruler might replace an existing alliance with a new alliance. We have to wait to see.

So, what is the prophetic time frame of the ten nation Beast and its ruler?
During the reigns of the eighth ruler, who is also one of the seven rulers.

Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

It is the reign of the eighth the ruler that is equated with the beast; perhaps his previous reign as well, not sure. Therefore, it is during the reign of the eighth ruler that the nations forming the ten nation alliance will also be the correct beast ten nation alliance. That alliance may be in existence prior to when the eighth ruler comes to power.

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:30 pm

Hi Keith,

Just got home - now to address some of your comments:

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

I interpret this verse as: economic war, then hot war, between the beast and the harlot.
Rev 17:16
16“And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

My Reasoning
1) On the map, the Beast countries are EU countries with a ten nation military alliance (WEU or Macron version).
2) On the map, the harlot countries are those EU countries which are not part of the ten nation military alliance.
3) Because of Revelation 17:16, I see the beast waging war on the Harlot
4) Because both the beast and harlot countries are EU countries, I see this war as a civil war.

Perhaps my interpretation is wrong, How do you interpret this verse?

Keith


Ok, first I think that we should back up for a minute and identify who the Woman/Harlot is - and how she relates to the Beast. With the Book of Revelation being so very highly symbolic, I am not so sure that the Woman/Harlot necessarily represents Nations/Countries. It could mean some form of "system" that the Antichrist needs to take control of because of her influence on the World.

Let's look at the Chapter 17 in the Book of Revelation, that mentions the Woman, whom I believe is also the Harlot - in that she is being described as being dressed in what we commonly know as harlot attire, and what she represents:

Revelation 17:3-7 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3) And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. 4) The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, 5) and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” 6) And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. 7) And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.


In the aforementioned passages of Scripture John describes the Woman - who in my opinion is very clearly described as a Harlot. He goes on to tell us that the Angel whom he is speaking with in this vision will tell him the mystery of the woman, and the beast that carries her. After describing the Beast in the following verses (more on this later) he finally mentions the who the woman is here:

Revelation 17:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”


Ok, now we have identified who the Woman/Harlot is. So, I don't think that she has anything to with being actual Nations/Countries, but a "system" that has to be taken into submission by the coming Antichrist.

Continuing...
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:18 pm

keithareilly wrote:The ten nation alliance for which we look represents the 10 horns of revelation 17. How do we know if any particular 10 nation alliance is the one of Revelation 17 ? It has to be the one seen in the image of the prophecy. The only way to identify the 10 nation alliance is if it fits the imagery of the prophecy. The WEU ten nation alliance fits the imagery. So does the Macron version. So does "The Alternate Version". A harlot rides the beast in all images. The harlot sits on seven hills in all images, she has a golden cup full of immorality and fornication. So, not just any ten nation alliance fits the prophecy.


Keith,

I want to comment on what you have written and break it down in various segments - as you have mentioned many segments of this Prophecy that needs to be addressed. I will attempt to address each segment you have written as follows:

1) You wrote: "The ten nation alliance for which we look represents the 10 horns of revelation 17. How do we know if any particular 10 nation alliance is the one of Revelation 17 ? It has to be the one seen in the image of the prophecy. The only way to identify the 10 nation alliance is if it fits the imagery of the prophecy. The WEU ten nation alliance fits the imagery. So does the Macron version."

I agree in part - but Daniel 7:24 is very specific about this 10 Nation Alliance - and works in complete harmony with Revelation 17. This is what I believe "is seen in the image of prophecy" as it relates to the now defunct WEU:

Daniel 7:24 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.


When the 10 Nation WEU was finally and totally established, a man arose after them - (identified as "he") in the aforementioned verses of Scripture.

Additionally:

Daniel 7:8 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)


While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.


Keith - the aforementioned actually occurred after the WEU had been established. The High Representative was named under Article 666 of the WEU - his name is Javier Solana.

So ... moving on:

2) You wrote: "The WEU ten nation alliance fits the imagery."
To this I say I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

Finally you wrote:

3) "So does the Macron version"
To this I say - not so fast - by your own admission the Nation of Italy has not agreed to this 10 Nation Confederacy - so in essence, it has not arrived. Please consider what I have mentioned previously - in that the WEU became defunct in 2011 after the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. It gave it's Military Authority and Power to what we now see in the entire EU. I'm not saying that the "Alterative Version" that you have presented is incorrect by any means - but what I am saying is that I find it extremely ironic that after the 10 Nations of the WEU finally came to complete power (in our lifetime) and after it came a man, by the establishment of Article 666 of it's own Constitution as is very 1st High Representative.

Now, the difference in what Macron is doing - and what had been previously established in the WEU is simply the WEU has fit Prophecy to a "T". What Macron is doing is only a proposal - and it has yet to be developed.

Now lets continue......
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:41 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,This entire theory is based upon the original WEU ten nation military alliance. Civil war and all my conclusions were based upon the WEU ten nations. None of the conclusions have changed as a consequence of Macron's ten nations alliance. The only thing that has changed are which nations form the beast and the Harlot. And those changes are minor changes as only the following nations have changed their status:

Changes from WEU verses Macron
1) Greece was part of the WEU beast, Under Macron, part of Harlot
2) Luxembourg was part of the WEU Beast, Under Macron, part of the Harlot
3) Denmark was part of the WEU Harlot, Now part of Macron's beast
4) Estonia was part of the WEU Harlot, now part of Macron's Beast
5) Croatia was part of the seven hills under the WEU, They are part of the Harlot since Joining the EU in 2013

Who is a member of the beast, the hills, and the harlot are the only things that have changed. My conclusions have not changed. The beast hates the Harlot and burns her with fire (Hot War), The beast wages war with the Lamb and loses.

Revelation 17:14a,16
14a [ War with Russia] “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them,
16 [Civil War, beast wages war on harlot] "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.


Keith, I am continuing to study such as you are - but I must say that AGAIN, I do not believe that there is a literal "Civil War" between the EU Nations - in that the Woman/Harlot is a "system or ideology" represented as a city (as previously identified) - that has to be overcome by the coming Antichrist Beast (Man/Nation). I mention this because of the symbolistic non-figurative language described in the Book of Revelation. The Beast System arises before the Man/Antichrist is ever revealed - as mentioned in Revelation 13.

Scripture has to work in complete harmony. And in saying that, nor do I believe that the Lamb is a Nation either - but NONE other than the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:00 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Scripture has to work in complete harmony. And in saying that, nor do I believe that the Lamb is a Nation either - but NONE other than the Lord Jesus Christ.


I wanted to add this verse of Scripture concerning the identity of the Lamb:

Revelation 17:14 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Victory for the Lamb

These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:11 am

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the commitment both of you demonstrate in your studies. I realize only one will be right in retrospect, but I appreciate the efforts of both in looking at and attempting to understand these scriptures.

Im editing my above post here:

Perhaps both or neither will be completely right.....as is often the case with eschatology.

Those maps are still so intriguiging to me too, Keith.....Im watchin with ya! (and heeding Baldy's warnings, too!)....learning is what Im doing.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 3:50 pm

GodsStudent wrote:I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the commitment both of you demonstrate in your studies. I realize only one will be right in retrospect, but I appreciate the efforts of both in looking at and attempting to understand these scriptures.


Thanks for your input Lisa - and your support :grin:

I think that I can say that the conversation that Keith and I have been discussing is not about who is right or wrong, but discovering Truth. Prayerfully, this topic will continue as events develop relating to this prophecy.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:07 pm

Hi Keith,

I want to address some other points that you've made - and hopefully you can provide additional input:

keithareilly wrote:What we have so far are candidates.
1) The WEU ten nation alliance,
2) The Macron Ten Nation Aliance,
3) Some potential future alliance that also fits the imagery.


keithareilly wrote:Which image is correct will not be known until after the complete fulfillment of the prophecy.


Yes, I agree.

keithareilly wrote:Now, here is something I have learned that might be helpful. In my research of Daniel 7 beasts, I discovered that a Beast is a twofold definition. It is the King AND it is his kingdom. So, the correct definition of the Rev 17 Beast is: a ten nation alliance during the reign of a particular ruler.


Keith - I agree with your research. As a matter of fact, I think what you have mentioned works in complete harmony with Revelation 13.

Most want to view Revelation 13 as the coming Antichrist and a False Prophet - subsequently making them two individual men. I'm not sold on that idea at all. I believe that it is the Antichrist and his Kingdom. It is the Final Kingdom rising from the Sea - and a man rising from the Earth. This same man (Antichrist) is identified as "False Prophet" because of the nature in which he deceives.

I know that you are strictly attempting to describe the Woman Riding the Beast - but actually, this all runs together, and is basically identifying the same theory. So I would like to know your thoughts on Revelation 13, and if you feel that it works in harmony with Revelation 17?
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:15 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,

Did the new maps help you see the beast, the harlot, the cup, the jewels, the hills, the Abyss, and the Lamb?

The final map is busy. I was hoping that breaking them down into less busy individual pieces would help you see each of the entities represented on the map.

Was it helpful?


Keith your maps have been absolutely Outstanding!

I appreciate the time that you have taken to identify what you have been researching. The goal I had was to provide a different perspective based on what has clearly been fulfilled. I think that you are spot on in identifying the EU as it relates to the Beast - and the "potential" significance of the WEU.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Douggg on Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:23 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,

Did the new maps help you see the beast, the harlot, the cup, the jewels, the hills, the Abyss, and the Lamb?

The final map is busy. I was hoping that breaking them down into less busy individual pieces would help you see each of the entities represented on the map.

Was it helpful?


Keith your maps have been absolutely Outstanding!

I appreciate the time that you have taken to identify what you have been researching. The goal I had was to provide a different perspective based on what has clearly been fulfilled. I think that you are spot on in identifying the EU as it relates to the Beast - and the "potential" significance of the WEU.

The map that is going to identify the EU as the beast - the fourth kingdom - in the end times, will be the one that outlines the ten regions of the EU, which each of the ten leaders will represent. We are not at that stage yet, but close.

President Trump is demanding the Europeans pay up for their fair share of NATO. The Europeans don't want to. We will have to see how that turns out.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:42 am

If we consider the fourth beast in Daniel 7:1-12 we are told the following.

Daniel 7:1-12: - Vision of the Four Beasts

7:
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head while on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts.

2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: 'Arise, devour much flesh!'

6 "After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

Vision of the Ancient of Days

9 "I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.


If, as is being suggested, the EU is this fourth beast, then the fourth beast is dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It has huge iron teeth; it is devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It is also different from all the beasts that were before it, and it has ten horns. If this is a description of the fourth beast, then what is the nature of this fourth beast? Is it not a demonic fallen heavenly host that has been given a dominion which it can exercise over the peoples of the earth if they chose to live within the domain of its dominion? What is the residue that it tramples with its feet?

If the EU is the fourth beast or the manifestation of the fourth beast because people have chosen to inhabit its dominion, then who or what is the little horn that comes up among the ten big horns and tears out three of the big horns by their roots? Is the little horn another demonic fallen heavenly host that is speaking pompous words or is a person who has allowed the little horn to inhabit his body?

There are still too many questions that are not answered by the EU theory. The unanswered questions are also impacted by the time frame in which we expect to see the four beasts and the little horn acting.

In Daniel 8 we are told of this same little horn coming out of one of the horns of the Goat with four horns on its head was also active before the time of Christ, was well as during the time of Christ's first advent and will be given an army to trample the Sanctuary of God for a time period of 2,300 years. If this is the case then the little horn has been active for over two ages. If this is so then the little horn is not human but is rather a demonic fallen heavenly host.

Now in Isaiah 24:21-22 we are told that the wicked heavenly host will be judged in heaven which seems to me to be the picture in Daniel 7:8-12, before they are dispatched into a pit together with the kings of the earth that are also judged at the same time.

It seems to me that the maps are not representative of the fourth beast because if the fourth beast is a demonic wicked fallen heavenly host then the beast cannot be represented as an area of land depicted within a map.

Keith has spent much time generating coloured maps, but the maps become meaningless if they are based on a wrong hypotesis. The woman we are told in Rev 17 is Babylon and Babylon is not a part of the EU.

God has not lead me to expend much time on understanding who the woman/women is/are in Rev 12 or 17. How important is it to understand who they are? It seems to be to be of little importance.

I would counsel anyone reading this thread to procede with great caution as our focus should be focused on Jesus and God's Plans for our respective salvations. Any other understanding should fade from our concerns as God has it all in hand and we can be secure in Who God is.

Raise you hands in worship and allow God to be God of this world.

Shalom
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:55 am

Douggg wrote:The map that is going to identify the EU as the beast - the fourth kingdom - in the end times, will be the one that outlines the ten regions of the EU, which each of the ten leaders will represent. We are not at that stage yet, but close.


Question - Does Scripture say that "ten regions" will arise out of this Kingdom - or "ten kings" :humm:

It's a rhetorical question - as Scripture is very clear (Daniel 7:24). If this were 10 regions, each king would have their own sovereign land to rule, and subsequently it would not be a United Kingdom.

Revelation 17:12 very clearly states: "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received NO Kingdom, as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast." Verse 13 goes on to say: "These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."

The aforementioned is the very reason why I think the maps that Keith have posted are so important. He has not ruled out the WEU - which were literally 10 Nations that had no Kingdom; and was the Military Wing of the EU before things changed with the Lisbon Treaty - and they gave up their power& authority to the EU Beast. Also, I should be important to not rule out what Macron is doing - in that he is trying to establish a 10 Nation Military Alliance.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:00 am

Jay Ross wrote:I would counsel anyone reading this thread to procede with great caution as our focus should be focused on Jesus and God's Plans for our respective salvations. Any other understanding should fade from our concerns as God has it all in hand and we can be secure in Who God is.


Then why are you interjecting your theory :humm:
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Wed Aug 08, 2018 2:52 pm

Mr Baldy,

Daniel 7:8, 24-25
8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, [g]this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak [y]out against the Most High and wear down the [z]saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and [aa]they will be given into his hand for a [ab]time, [ac]times, and half a [ad]time.


When I read this, I see the little horn coming on the scene after the ten horns become kings. He subdues 3 kings, not sure if they are 3 of the 10 though. It also appears he lasts 3 1/2 years.

How do you see Javier Solana fulfilling this role of the little horn?
Last edited by keithareilly on Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:44 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:I would counsel anyone reading this thread to procede with great caution as our focus should be focused on Jesus and God's Plans for our respective salvations. Any other understanding should fade from our concerns as God has it all in hand and we can be secure in Who God is.


Then why are you interjecting your theory :humm:


Just trying to provide a reasoned balance to what is already questionable on Keith's part. He already knows that I disagree with his maps etc. as not complying with scripture.

Shalom
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:55 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Just trying to provide a reasoned balance to what is already questionable on Keith's part.


Providing a "reasoned balance" is unreasonable if what you post doesn't jive up with Scripture. Why not instead post your theory and let those who are reading this make up their own minds? There are many intelligent believers here that can decipher what is Truth - and what is error.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:25 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Just trying to provide a reasoned balance to what is already questionable on Keith's part.


Providing a "reasoned balance" is unreasonable if what you post doesn't jive up with Scripture. Why not instead post your theory and let those who are reading this make up their own minds? There are many intelligent believers here that can decipher what is Truth - and what is error.


Yes, I also know that Mr Baldy, and that is what my previous post was for, with respect to Keith's theory. His theory certainly does not jive with scripture from my perspective, which is your claimed bench mark. What I have posted is suggesting that it is not truth, just as you are attempting to do with my post, and I am happy for those who have understanding, judge that for themselves.

In your case Mr Baldy, it is my view that you are simply protecting your belief system with respect to the EU, which I know does not jive at all with scripture, but you, like me, are free to post our respective views on this forum.

Have a good day, now, Mr. B.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:14 pm

Jay wrote earlier,

Looking at images does not always bring understanding for me.

I understand. Not everyone "speaks" the same language.
I know you have a good imagination.
I am sorry you are not able to contribute to this theory.


Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:30 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,

Daniel 7:8, 24-25
8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.


When I read this, I see the little horn coming after the ten horns become kings. he subdues 3 kings, not sure if they are 3 of the 10 though. It also appears he lasts 3 1/2 years.

How do you see Javier Solana fulfilling this role of the little horn?


Hi Keith,

Glad you asked :mrgreen:

Let me begin by saying that I never mentioned that Javier Solana fulfilled the role as the "little horn."

What I did say is that AFTER the 10 Nation WEU came into fruition (Greece became the final Nation in 1995) - Article 666 of it's Constitution gave power to create the seat of the High Representative - this was done in December of 1998. Officially titled: "Office of High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy for the European Union" This was none other than Javier Solana himself. He was the EU's very FIRST High Representative.

I referenced:

Mr Baldy wrote:Daniel 7:8 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.


If you'll notice - this "horn" came after the 10 horns were established, and "possessed the eyes like the eyes of a man". In my opinion this describes what occurred when Javier Solana was given the seat of High Representative under Article 666 of the WEU's Assembly's Recommendation.

One just can't make this stuff up......

Now, as you know the WEU ceased in June 2011 - giving it's power to the EU. This "appears" to work in harmony with Revelation 17:12-13.

However, Javier Solana stepped down with the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty. So, and therefore - in order for the whole EU theory to be correct at this juncture; Javier Solana would have to come back to power and be given the "Authority to Continue" for 3. 5 years - as mentioned in Revelation 13:5:

Revelation 13:5 - New King James Version (NKJV)

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.


In closing - none of us really know or can actually know who the coming Antichrist is - until the appointed time in which he is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8); but I think it would be wise for one to still consider the EU Theory.

Also see this: http://www.georgehobbs.net/files/Recomendation666.pdf
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:38 pm

Ah,

I have considered this possibility. In the second post on this thread you will find the following.
The Seven Hills and Seven Kings: These countries are not part of the EU but are surrounded by EU countries on all sides except the western side where resides the Adriatic Sea. The Seven Hills also represent seven kings or leaders. It is unclear if these seven kings are from these countries or are seven High-Representatives of the EU. If the kings are from the seven countries then one of the kings of the Seven Hills will become a EU High-Representative gaining the power of the 10 horns. If the Seven Kings are High-Representatives of the EU, then we are looking at Seven High-Representative where one of the seven is also an eighth serving multiple terms. As the Eighth High-Representative, he most likely will serve as one of the first six High-Representatives and also as the Eighth High-Representative. Thus he once was and now is not and yet will come. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, places the time frame of the prophecy during the term of the sixth High-Representative.


My view has broadened since this post; however, I have not ruled out the return of Javier Solana.

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:25 am

Mr Baldy,

Daniel 7:8, 24-25
8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, [g]this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak [y]out against the Most High and wear down the [z]saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and [aa]they will be given into his hand for a [ab]time, [ac]times, and half a [ad]time.


As you know, I do not have an end times theory. Consequently, I am not of the opinion the EU is the fourth beast of Daniel. I am not saying it is not the fourth beast. I am not saying it is the fourth beast. I simply have no opinion on the matter.

If you are correct and the EU is the fourth beast, then I suspect the little horn uprooting the three horns might be describing the results of civil war.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:32 am

GodsStudent wrote:I just wanted to say that I really appreciate the commitment both of you demonstrate in your studies. I realize only one will be right in retrospect, but I appreciate the efforts of both in looking at and attempting to understand these scriptures.

Im editing my above post here:

Perhaps both or neither will be completely right.....as is often the case with eschatology.

Those maps are still so intriguiging to me too, Keith.....Im watchin with ya! (and heeding Baldy's warnings, too!)....learning is what Im doing.



Hi GodsStudent,

Thanks for your encouragement.
Matthew 24:23
so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

Per Jesus, the events on the road of time have their own signs.
It is entirely possible the MAPs are nothing more than a sign saying "Welcome to The Woman Riding the Beast Era".
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:53 am

keithareilly wrote:Jay wrote earlier,

Looking at images does not always bring understanding for me.

I understand. Not everyone "speaks" the same language.
I know you have a good imagination.
I am sorry you are not able to contribute to this theory.


Keith


Keith, it Is not that I am not able to contribute to this discussion, as I have, by providing scripture and an explanation as to why the theory that you are presenting is not supported by the scriptures. The number of errors that I can see in what you are presenting are many. Sadly, the Roman Empire was living within the influence of the domain of one of the heads of the third beast. The Roman empire is not the fourth beast as described in Daniel 7: 1-12 just as the Roman Empire has never exercised dominion within the Land of the Chaldeans. Babylon was remembered once again around 100 years ago and God's cup of wrath will be poured out again on the nation that presently lives in the Land of the Chaldeans/Babylon. Yes looking at your map images does not bring understanding for me as it is my understanding that the premise for the map images is simple not supported by Scripture. They simply confirm that the theory being used to create the images is flawed.

As I have previously pointed out, both of our respective understandings of the End Times may be flawed and out of left field and it will be time that will reveal the truth of the matter in this regard.

Ten or more years ago, on another forum, which has been closed, a poster under the handle of DADA was presenting a list of the nations prominent within his theory of how the end times would unfold. Some of the nations that are represented on your coloured map images, he was listing. His theory at that time was very similar to what is being presented in the attached map images. Even then, I was disagreeing with his theory and sadly your theory also does not give me the confidence to agree with yours either.

A good and balanced discussion should have both sides represented.

Shalom
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:25 pm

keithareilly wrote:As you know, I do not have an end times theory. Consequently, I am not of the opinion the EU is the fourth beast of Daniel. I am not saying it is not the fourth beast. I am not saying it is the fourth beast. I simply have no opinion on the matter.

If you are correct and the EU is the fourth beast, then I suspect the little horn uprooting the three horns might be describing the results of civil war.


Keith,

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. ONE absolutely cannot view any portion of the Book of Revelation and not use the information that you have presented; an hypothesis titled: "Woman Riding Beast"; supply maps and information on this same hypothesis - and not have an "end times theory." I'm sorry....but again, the Book of Revelation is totally, and completely about events as they occur prior to the Return of Christ.

Now, for the record - I have NEVER been dogmatic about anything I have ever presented on this forum. And never about End Time Prophecy. I want to be completely clear about that - and that certainly includes the EU being the 4th and Final Empire. And I hope that I have never presented a position as to "warn others" not to consider what anyone has presented - UNLESS it has been absolutely contrary to Scripture.

You see, there are those who present erroneous theories that absolutely cannot be supported with Scripture. I will also say for the record that I have very seriously, and most directly challenged what they have presented. If you view the history, most often this has been met with the "locking" of that particular Thread - and very honestly sometimes it has been warranted, and other times it has not.

Please don't be afraid to present what you feel is relevant to what the Holy Spirit has led you to either present - or inquire about. A true believer will embrace what you are presenting in love - and/or correct you by presenting Scripture to support what they are presenting, if it is of God. Someone who refutes your inquiry without showing proof of Scripture - even as it may be a matter of interpretation is "perhaps" being used by Satan, and may not be aware of the powers of the Spiritual Realm. I have both seen, and have experienced this myself - despite very obvious Scriptural evidence to support what I have presented.

You have mentioned the "uprooting of the 3 horns" and how it may relate to an EU Civil War. I will say to you that I wholeheartedly believe that this may be very true. But again, you are still mentioning the EU in your theory. If this is true, then even the very maps you have presented factor into the EU being the 4th and Final Empire. I say this because it is mentioned in the Book of Revelation which speaks of events occurring prior to the Return of Christ.

Again, not being dogmatic about anything...….but I very sincerely cannot fathom, even from the very limited points of my intellect, how one cannot seriously consider every thing that has happened with the European Union, and not realize that there is a "very strong possibility" that it matches up so perfectly with what has been recorded in Scripture. And I wonder how one could NOT consider that what we have been witnessing, is Prophecy being fulfilled right before our very eyes - yet we still either deny, or won't research the evidence with prayer - and in our hearts and mind. It sort of reminds me when Christ appeared the first time - and they did not understand or even know that it was the "Time of His Visitation."
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:53 pm

Mr Baldy,

I think my theory is correct about describing the EU as the Woman riding the Beast.
No one has presented any information that is as convincing as what I see. Do I still have questions and uncertainties? Sure. I am very general about what I think is being described when using the maps as the context of the prophecy.

What I am not convinced about is that Revelation is about just the end times. We have the letters to the churches. I think those address what is now historical situations. We have the blood rising to the horses bridle which was described in Jewish History as occurring during the Second Jewish War. We have the story of the Christ being born, acending to heaven, and the fall of Satan to the earth. It is my understanding these are all historical events.

We also have the 1000 year reign mentioned. I think that is still future. We have what happens after the 1000 year reign. Which I also think is over 1000 years yet in the future.

So, my view of the Woman Riding the Beast is: It is a mile marker on the road of events prophesied in Revelation.

If I did not believe what I am posting is true or important, I would not be posting it.

I see our conversation as me looking at the details of this mile marker and you discussing how this mile marker fits in with a larger picture.

In a lot of ways, it is like a GPS. A GPS cannot provide directions if it does not know your location. We have a mile marker indicating where we are on the prophetic road described in the book of Revelation. Now that we know where we are on the road, we might be able to sketch out a time like road map of prophesied events, both historical and future. Maybe we can't. If nothing else, it is nice to know where on the road map of Revelation's events we are located.

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:05 am

keithareilly wrote:I think my theory is correct about describing the EU as the Woman riding the Beast.


I also think that you are correct.

keithareilly wrote:What I am not convinced about is that Revelation is about just the end times. We have the letters to the churches. I think those address what is now historical situations. We have the blood rising to the horses bridle which was described in Jewish History as occurring during the Second Jewish War. We have the story of the Christ being born, acending to heaven, and the fall of Satan to the earth. It is my understanding these are all historical events.


I have to agree here as well. The Book of Revelation - is about the "Revelation" of Jesus Christ. I don't believe that I ever mentioned that it is "just" about the end times.

keithareilly wrote:We also have the 1000 year reign mentioned. I think that is still future. We have what happens after the 1000 year reign. Which I also think is over 1000 years yet in the future.


I disagree with you here. I am not so sure that there is a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ. Even to this very day, I cannot understand how Christ will come in great Power and in the Glory of the Father, and there will be those who disbelieve that He is not God and/or rebel against Him in this so-called Millennial Kingdom. I don't believe that His Power or Glory ever changes during this alleged 1,000 year period - nor does His Power or Glory change when He Appears. Additionally, there are too many holes in that theory. As now, I believe that when He appears - that will be IT. It will be the Last Day, a Judgment will ensue - and the Eternal State will begin. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is that we have 1,000 years or more left prior to His Return. I don't see that as being remotely possible.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:43 pm

Mr Baldy wrote,

I disagree with you here. I am not so sure that there is a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ.


This is why I concentrate on what I have available: history, alliances, geography, etc. These reduce speculation.

The MAP of this theory is not speculation. It is a representation of current geopolitical alliances.
The woman riding the beast image map does not come from scriptures, it comes from mapping the alliance.
Consequently, the MAP does not represent speculation concerning prophecy.
Why not? because the scriptures are not required to color the maps in accordance to the alliance.
Coloring the map according the alliance yields the same result without including the prophecy.


Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:23 pm

keithareilly wrote:The MAP of this theory is not speculation. It is a representation of current geopolitical alliances.The woman riding the beast image map does not come from scriptures, it comes from mapping the alliance.Consequently, the MAP does not represent speculation concerning prophecy.Why not? because the scriptures are not required to color the maps in accordance to the alliance.Coloring the map according the alliance yields the same result without including the prophecy.


Hi Keith,

In viewing your aforementioned comments - I have a few questions for you.....

1) If you feel that the woman riding the beast image "map does not come from scriptures" - and that that "it comes from mapping the alliance" - then what has caused you to perform the mapping and present this "theory?"

2) If the map does not represent speculation concerning prophecy - then why have you posted your "theory" in the Prophecy Debate Section of this Forum?

3) Why have you formed this map to show an EU alliance - meaning, what is your purpose?
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:20 pm

The map can be created independently of the scripture by coloring in the map according to the alliance.
Because this is true, the maps are not prophetic speculation. They represent current geopolitical situation.

The map I saw in the Wall Street Journal was the current geopolitical situation in the early 2000's.

As I christian, I understood the map in the newspaper as a potential alignment with bible prophecy. I did not make the map in Wall Street Journal, but I "saw" the map in light of prophecy and immediately came up with a theory:
Biblical beasts represent geopolitical entities.

To see if this theory was correct I spent years researching the 4 beasts of Daniel 7 to see if I could identify the beasts by researching ancient kingdom's maps. I identified the first 3. Identifying these 3 led me to the conclusion the map I saw in the Wall Street Journal was very likely to be the fulfillment of Revelation 17. To be certain, I had to identify the imagery in the prophecy: the abyss, the harlot, the beast, the hills, the cup, the jewelry. Once I identified the Abyss, Harlot, Beast, and Hills, I understood this was the fulfillment of Revelation 17.

I posted these things on this website in the debate section so that people would attack the theory and attempt to discredit it. Why? Because, if the theory can stand up to avid prophecy Christians, it is worth considering.

Why is this theory important to me?
Because I am a scientific based person and like many people I struggle with conflicts about faith verses science.
I have presented evidence in the form of a map that is not based upon a speculation about what scriptures mean. Instead, the map is based upon current world events, things a scientific minded non christian can see in the world, independently of any religion. I can take the map and say to myself and non believers: "Look, this map represents current world situation. This current world situation was described 2000 years ago and we have scientific evidence the writings describing this current world situation existed 2000 years before the situation became reality."

I showed my friend since 2nd grade this map a month ago. He is an unbeliever. When I explained this to him he said: "If this is true and can be used to predict the future, then predestination is real". I want him with me for eternity. I want him to believe.

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:06 pm

This thread started back in March 2012 and was bumped by Keith in early 2012. In 2015 it also had a short burst of posts. Then in June 2018 Keith again posted some maps that he had been working on over the past few years. The thread then began to grow when one other person joined in the discussion in the thread and encouraged Keith because of his theory of a "Revived Roman Empire" as the fifth segment of the Daniel 2 prophecy statue prophecy. With Mr B. joining the discussion, the thread grow leg, so to speak, and both Keith and Mr B. have exchanged a number of posts.

I posted in April 2012 where I presented one argument based on scripture as to why the theory that Keith was trying to present in map form was flawed. In June 2018, I again posted and virtually repeated my previous post that the beasts were fallen wicked heavenly hosts. I posted again that Daniel 7:1-12 was drawing to its conclusion with the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 will be judged in our immediate future and imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for a period of 1,000 years. In this post I suggested that we should be focusing on what is happening now in the world and the nations and the people groups that are manifesting the characteristic of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12.

The fourth beast of Daniel 7:19-27 which, in image form, is described in terms of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 in that the imagery of each of the beast of Daniel 7:1-12 is found in the imagery of the fourth beast of Daniel 7:19-27 is still a distant future event. In other words, the beast of Daniel 7:19-27 is the same beast that is described in Revelation 13, that come up out of the sea of humanity again, after the abyss is unlocked. This same beast is described in Revelation 17.

In Revelation 9 we are told that the bottomless pit is unlocked and, the locust, as described in Revelation 9, are the first to leave the Bottomless pit to initiate the start of the tribulation of the earth after the passing of the 1,000 years of the Millennium Age, for a period of five months.

Also, in Revelation 9 we are told that the four angels, i.e. possibly either the four angels of Daniel 7:1-12, or just the third beast of Daniel 7:6 which has four angels as each of its four heads and therefore four crowns, as we are told in scripture, who are at the Great River Euphrates, where tradition suggests is the location of the Bottomless pit, were then released after the time of the locusts to trouble the peoples of the earth had run its full course in time. These four angels/beasts/fallen wicked heavenly hosts go out with an army to kill a third of mankind. These angels/beasts are also called Kings in Daniel 7:15-17. The four angels go out after they have been released from their 1,000 years of imprisonment in the bottomless pit.

Then in Revelation 13 we see the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 then rise up together as a single beast, out of the sea of humanity. This same imagery is also seen in Daniel 7:19-27.

In Revelation 17 we see an image of a woman riding the “beast” of Revelation 13 which has seven heads. This “beast” is what the false prophet, i.e. the little horn, entices the people of the earth to worship and its image.

As such, the Revelation 17 passage of the woman riding the beast is a distant future event, i.e. a 1,000 + years into our future, and the present world events and the kingdoms partaking in todays’ events are not necessarily the same kingdoms that will be present when the woman is riding the beast as depicted in Revelation 17.

The map imagery that Keith is generating can only be limited to any Biblical prophecy that is unfolding at this present time and cannot be applied to future distant prophecy events, because he is mapping the current events that are occurring.

Keith has his mile markers in the wrong locations for the unfolding end time prophecy events.

That is why the imagery Keith has generated and presented in this thread, makes no sense for a distant future event. If, however, Keith was looking at kingdoms that are involved in the unfolding of biblical prophecy associated with this present time, then the imagery of the maps may make more sense for us and help us to understand what is presently happening, prophecy wise, but even that hope for Keith’s map images is not being realised, in my humble opinion.

Shalom
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:55 am

A more direct detailed answer.
1) If you feel that the woman riding the beast image "map does not come from scriptures" - and that that "it comes from mapping the alliance" - then what has caused you to perform the mapping and present this "theory?"
The map is colored in based upon current geopolitical alliances. The oceans, seas, are colored in blue a standard representation of water. Latvia is colored in based on is sex tourism industry. The only non-alliance on the map is the lamb; that is from the scripture and is speculation on my part. Consequently, a map showing the EU as a woman riding a beast sitting on seven hills with a cup in her hand can be created without using any scriptural reference. The aforementioned image map (without the lamb) is a representation of the current situation in Europe. Consequently, it is not speculation and it does not require use of scriptures to fill in the map. Because the map image (without the lamb) can be created from just current European situation without a reference to scriptures, the map does not come from scriptures. Because the map (without the lamb) can be created independent of scriptural references, the map is evidence, not speculation.

2) If the map does not represent speculation concerning prophecy - then why have you posted your "theory" in the Prophecy Debate Section of this Forum?
Theory - a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained. I am scientific minded. Like Gideon (Judges 6:36-40) I want evidence. The world is full of lies and liars. I want evidence representing truth. The map is not speculation, it is evidence obtained independently of the Christian belief system that the woman riding the beast is real and truth. Theories require evidence. Speculation does not require evidence.

3) Why have you formed this map to show an EU alliance - meaning, what is your purpose?
Evidence. Not speculation.


Evidence is greater than speculation. Speculation cannot refute evidence.
The map is evidence of the woman riding the beast. Speculation cannot refute what I have shown.

Speculation based upon evidence is worth considering; but, it is not evidence.
Because of the evidence of the woman riding the beast, I have speculated about a possible future alliance between Norway and Russia to form the lamb. I have also been specific that it may only be Russia and not include Norway. It is proper to distinguish between speculation and evidence.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:00 am

keithareilly wrote:I think my theory is correct about describing the EU as the Woman riding the Beast. No one has presented any information that is as convincing as what I see.


keithareilly wrote:The MAP of this theory is not speculation. It is a representation of current geopolitical alliances.


keithareilly wrote: I had to identify the imagery in the prophecy: the abyss, the harlot, the beast, the hills, the cup, the jewelry. Once I identified the Abyss, Harlot, Beast, and Hills, I understood this was the fulfillment of Revelation 17.


keithareilly wrote:I have presented evidence in the form of a map that is not based upon a speculation about what scriptures mean. Instead, the map is based upon current world events, things a scientific minded non christian can see in the world, independently of any religion. I can take the map and say to myself and non believers: "Look, this map represents current world situation. This current world situation was described 2000 years ago and we have scientific evidence the writings describing this current world situation existed 2000 years before the situation became reality."


Good day to you Keith,

I have posted a few snippets of your comments to illustrate a point. Thank you by the way for answering my questions. I want to also commend you for staying with what you plainly see as evidence that has fulfilled Bible Prophecy.

In reading the comments on this post, the only rebuttal that I can see is a matter of opinion and absolutely no facts. That opinion is based on a single belief that this world has 1,000 or more years to go before the Return of Christ. I know that there is a possibility that you believe this as well.

I love evidence - and especially "factual" evidence that can be supported by what has been written in the Word of God. I don't want to speculate that we have 1,000 + years to go before the Return of Christ - as to me respectfully, that is pure nonsense. I am a retired police officer, and have been so for the past 3 years now. I've also served my country. I've mentioned this not to brag, or boast - but to take into consideration about what I am about to mention:

We live in a Fallen World - and man is inherently evil. During my time in the military, and as a street cop - one can only imagine how much evil exists, and my experience has led me to know and to understand that "Spiritual Warfare" is REAL. I don't know how long the Earth existed from the time that God created Adam - until He destroyed the World with the Flood, but apparently He had had ENOUGH.

This current World has existed since the Flood. Modern technology has taken us to places that would never had been imaginable for those who lived just after the Flood. Compound that with the evil that is in the World - and I cannot see this World lasting an additional 1,000 years or more prior to the Return of Christ.

I've mentioned the aforementioned, because I want to encourage you. Apparently you have been posting this since 2012, well it's very obvious to me that you see something. I also understand that you have not related your theory to any particular Biblical Prophecy paradigm - but what you have personally witnessed. I greatly respect that, as there are those who may strongly refute what you are saying - because of a particular bias. In contrast, you may also have those who agree with a particular bias. Nevertheless, one cannot refute evidence based on "Facts."

What you have presented is based on facts. Please continue to post what is happening in the EU. You're doing an Outstanding Job!
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:52 pm

Mr Baldy,

Sadly you like to believe, that your views on scripture are the only right ones to believe, and anyone else, even if they use scripture to back up their views and/or interpretations, are wrong because you say so. In your rebuttal above you provided your opinion only without any scriptural evidence to back up your opinion and claim that what I have posted is wrong. You also claimed that I have been the only one who has expressed an opinion against what Keith has been posting about his theory. There have been others who have expressed their views on Keith's theory but people can tell someone, like Keith, that their views do not line up with scripture only a few times, after which they then let then discover that fact for themselves.

As my comments have been addressed to Keith and not your good self, then I will await Keith's rebuttal and scriptural evidence to counter what I have posted in this thread.

Shalom
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:43 pm

Jay,

You are presenting an end times perspective. I do not have an end times perspective.

I have presented a theory backed up with evidence based upon current world events. I have backed up my theory with independent evidence of articles, treaties, and opinions of world leaders.

Opinions are fine. Mr baldy has expressed his opinions and others have expressed their opinions. As of yet, nobody has made an argument against this theory in any other form than an opinion.

As Mr Baldy expressed, I think it is difficult for people with an end time perspective to understand how I can present what I have presented without arguing for an end times perspective. Consequently, people argue their end times perspective thinking it is an argument against this theory. End time perspectives are not an argument against this theory. Why, because this is not an end time theory.

Consequently, arguing my theory is wrong because it does not meet an end time perspective is like arguing the sky is orange because oranges are orange. I really don't have any response to make to those types of arguments.

I welcome your input, I just hoped you would argue for or against what I have presented instead or for or against some end times perspective. But, I have learned that is difficult for people to address what I have presented without spilling over into some end times perspective. Even Mr Baldy expressed wonder at how I could present what I have presented and not have an end times theory.

What I have observed about end times theories is: people do not address the prophecies in detail. For example what does Daniel 7 mean when it says and the wings were torn off and it was given two feet and a heart of a man. Nobody wants to address these details, everyone wants to gloss over them and tie things together without addressing the details.

What I was hoping for were people who are serious about addressing prophecies in detail would contribute to validating or invalidating this theory.

In this theory I have explained the golden cup and the Jewelry she is described as wearing. Nobody seems to want to get to that level of detail in their studies. Nobody wants to say, no that is wrong, this is what the jewelry and cup mean and here is independent evidence showing my view is correct and yours is wrong. Nobody wants to go to that level. Everyone wants to stay with speculation and opinion.

If a person cannot present evidence explaining the details of a prophesy, why should anyone consider their viewpoint valid?

Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:17 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

You are presenting an end times perspective. I do not have an end times perspective.


However, Keith, by referencing the woman riding the beast as depicted in Rev 17 you are presenting an end time perspective, but sadly you are generating the map image based on present day events which have no bearing on what the map image will be in 1,000 years plus time.

You have confirmed that you have used current events to generate your map theory.

keithareilly wrote:I have presented a theory backed up with evidence based upon current world events. I have backed up my theory with independent evidence of articles, treaties, and opinions of world leaders.

. . . . , arguing my theory is wrong because it does not meet an end time perspective is like arguing the sky is orange because oranges are orange. I really don't have any response to make to those types of arguments.


I am not arguing against your map imagery, only the mile marker posts that you are suggesting are relevant to your images, as these time stamps do not match up with what is recorded in the End Time Prophecies.

keithareilly wrote:What I have observed about end times theories is: people do not address the prophecies in detail. For example what does Daniel 7 mean when it says and the wings were torn off and it was given two feet and a heart of a man. Nobody wants to address these details, everyone wants to gloss over them and tie things together without addressing the details.

What I was hoping for were people who are serious about addressing prophecies in detail would contribute to validating or invalidating this theory.


Sadly Keith, it is your suggested mile marks that I have been making my comments about and detailing why I cannot see your images are relevant to a distant future event when as you have suggested , your data is only collected from recent and present events. As such it becomes pointless to focus of the details as you appear to want

keithareilly wrote:In this theory I have explained the golden cup and the Jewelry she is described as wearing. Nobody seems to want to get to that level of detail in their studies. Nobody wants to say, no that is wrong, this is what the jewelry and cup mean and here is independent evidence showing my view is correct and yours is wrong. Nobody wants to go to that level. Everyone wants to stay with speculation and opinion.

If a person cannot present evidence explaining the details of a prophesy, why should anyone consider their viewpoint valid?


Keith, if your images that you are generating are not relevant to the time frame that you are suggesting, then why does any one have to worry about the level of detail that you are suggesting to either endorse or debunk your theory.

Can you confirm that your time stamps i.e. your mile markers that you have suggested are right.

I await your response.

Shalom
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:50 pm

Jay,

I have already provided the evidence the Woman Riding the Beast exists today.
Therefore, I have proven, through evidence, your end times view is wrong.


Keith
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:46 am

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

I have already provided the evidence the Woman Riding the Beast exists today.
Therefore, I have proven, through evidence, your end times view is wrong.


Keith


Well, we will have to differ. Your created images do not prove, IMHO, that the woman riding the beasts exists today.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby keithareilly on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:13 am

Jay Ross wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Jay,

I have already provided the evidence the Woman Riding the Beast exists today.
Therefore, I have proven, through evidence, your end times view is wrong.


Keith


Well, we will have to differ. Your created images do not prove, IMHO, that the woman riding the beasts exists today.


During Galileo's time, his evidence the planets revolved around the sun was rejected by those who support the religious idea the earth was the center of the universe. It is a common and frequent thing for man to reject evidence in favor of opinion, especially when that opinion is religious based.
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Re: Woman Riding Beast - Map and Theory - Updated

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:57 pm

keithareilly wrote:<Snip>

During Galileo's time, his evidence of the planets revolving around the sun was rejected by those who support the religious idea the earth was the center of the universe. It is a common and frequent thing for man to reject evidence in favor of opinion, especially when that opinion is religious based.


The evidence we also have today shows that the earth is at the centre of the universe as we can only see to the edge of the visible universe and that edge is the same distance away from the earth no matter in what ever direction we look.

However, we can also see within that sphere of the observable universe that there are objects that are captured by other objects and that these captured objects revolve around a central mass that holds them captured otherwise the central mass would be capturing the objects that are revolving around them and they would be consumed by the grater mass.

Galileo had access to a telescope which made it easier for him to observe what was occurring within the observable universe that he was able to see. The vast majority of the people in his time did not, and their understanding was limited accordingly.

The facts, as I see them, are these: - you are making observations of presently occurring events and then telling us that the image you are creating by colouring in an unstable map of boundaries, that reflect these "observations of fact," is creating an image that depicts a woman riding a beast. Because you are able to create this image, you have then gone on to claim that the woman riding the beast in Revelation 17 must therefore exist today. That conclusion on your part is just an assumption.

However, the evidence taken from the bible, depend on our ability to correctly interpret what we read, indicates that John's recorded observation of a woman riding a beast is of an event that is still in our distant future, probably 1000 + years into our future, given the recorded time frames that are indicated within the scriptures.

Sadly many interpretations of the Biblical prophecies and their time frames have been forged to fit our "opinions" on what is going to happen.

Some believe that Christ is coming soon while others see Christ will not come to judge the people of the earth, both past and present, for another 1,000 + years.

As I have personally come to the conclusion that there is another age yet to unfold before the recorded GWT judgement, and the symbology of a woman riding a beast, as recorded in Rev 17, will not occur until the latter part of the next age, I am suggesting that your assumption about the event of the woman riding the beast is presently unfolding now, is very questionable indeed.

It is for this reason that I wrote the following: - "I would counsel anyone reading this thread to proceed with great caution . . . "

Shalom

PS can we both simply agree to disagree on the validity of what you are posting.
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