Timing in the Revelation

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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:10 am

mark s wrote: I simply do not make any assumptions. I go with what I read.


mark s wrote:The two witness passage contains it's own timing outline. For 3.5 years of ministry, no one can harm them. For 3.5 years, the beast is given power over God's people. The beast kills the witness. Therefore, the witness prophesy during the first 3.5 years, the beast has power during the last 3.5 years.


Mark respectfully, the aforementioned comments that you have made are incredibly assuming - yet you stated that you "do not make any assumptions." There is absolutely nothing written in Scripture that indicates the timing of the "beast" or Antichrist's reign as it relates to the Two Witnesses. You have divided this into two 3.5 year segments, not Scripture - therefore an assumption.

mark s wrote:Is there a particular reason you have in mind that when a passage is not linguistically connect to the preceding prophetic narrative, and contains its own timing detail, why we should not simply use the information the passage is question provides?


Again, you are assuming. Where does it indicate that the Two Witnesses have their "own timing detail" :humm:

There are a lot of things going on down here on Planet Earth when these two men are prophesying. Inasmuch that if you continue to read what they are doing here on Planet Earth, in that they: "tormented those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 11:10) - that it appears as if the "Great Tribulation" is occurring at that time.

You ask: "Is there a particular reason you have in mind that when a passage is not linguistically connect to the preceding prophetic narrative?" Well Mark, let me ask you the same thing...…. Why have you created this separate timing for the Two Witnesses, when there is no evidence to support this notion?
Again, is this not an "assumption" on your part :humm:

Have you not read what happens at the 6 seal (Revelation 6:12) - which is the "preceding prophetic narrative" to what is mentioned in Relation 11:13?

Well, Revelation 6:12 mentions a "great earthquake" as does Revelation 11:13. A very observant student of the Bible will realize that this "great earthquake" mentioned in these two separate passages of Scripture are one and the same. After the 6th Seal is broken - many believe that the Rapture of the Church occurs, as at this time the Two Witnesses are also called up - and the Wrath of the Lamb begins.

So in closing, Scripture has identified a 3.5 year period of time that relates to the prophesying of the Two Witnesses and the coming Antichrist. No where have I ever read that there is a 7 year tribulation period as many want to make it out to be - nor have I ever read that the 3.5 year period in which the Two Witnesses are given power is not ran concurrently as the same time as the coming Antichrist is given. I am sure that you will counter by saying that they are killed after they have completed their 3.5 year of prophesying; however, the question then becomes:
"Who kills the Two Witnesses?"

I would be careful not to "assume" that the "beast from the abyss" is the coming Antichrist. :mrgreen:
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:20 am

mark s wrote:And that is intellectual dishonesty, the advocacy of a position either known to be false, or suspected to be false but without concern for verification.

The difference in Unwillingness to consider another idea and "intellectual dishonesty" is this mark.

You Either "Know" your position to be true, OR you Do NOT "Suspect your opinion to be false". You are concerned about verification however.

Because "Concern" can be either complete or incomplete, slight or great, That makes the difference.
Because of that difference, I have Not accused you of "intellectual dishonesty".

For example, you know Greek, and I don't. I am not "concerned" enough to learn it, and my reasons for it are mine and mine alone.

The main is that I have not time for such a task regardless of my degree of "concern".....or "Willingness" to learn it.

Is that a wise thing for me? I don't know honestly, as I am not wise enough to know.

Should you be "concerned" enough to utterly almost start from square one in Bible prophecy to learn my perspective instead of yours? probably not. But point by point, Willingness and concern come into play, and at each point we choose to be willing or unwilling to consider any part of a matter.

We are not being "intellectually dishonest" when we choose to disallow a contrary point because we are unwilling to spend certain energy to search it out.

That is my reason for saying to you, I have not accused you of intellectual dishonesty mark.

There is a difference.

As for my avoiding your questions, please briefly list those that I have not answered, as I thought I had answered quite a few...and often, sentence by sentence, of your posts.

As to your examples of an "overview" nature of the seals, I must address later...but I think your examples are not good ones.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:51 am

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:So then, your objection is that since the passage describing the two witness appears in the text after the passages of the trumpets, the witness can only appear after the trumpets themselves.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.


OK.

Please, what are you saying?


I found one very important question of yours that I didn't answer.

I will answer in part here....

The witnesses do not, "in real Time" appear AFTER the trumps. They become known and begin their ministry at the onset of the AOD. and the trumps describe in great detail what will occur in the earth DURING there ministry.

The reason they appear in Johns Vision at the time they do is because of the very important "Definitive Interlude" ( known or called a Parenthesis by most)

If I had time.....but I do not.....I would like to start a new thread called "Mysterious Questions, Timing and Answers"

Those Mysterious Questions are a big part of the Structure and Reasons the "Definitive Interludes/Parenthesis" Appear in the Order and Places they appear in the Revelation.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:52 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
mark s wrote: I simply do not make any assumptions. I go with what I read.


mark s wrote:The two witness passage contains it's own timing outline. For 3.5 years of ministry, no one can harm them. For 3.5 years, the beast is given power over God's people. The beast kills the witness. Therefore, the witness prophesy during the first 3.5 years, the beast has power during the last 3.5 years.


Mark respectfully, the aforementioned comments that you have made are incredibly assuming - yet you stated that you "do not make any assumptions." There is absolutely nothing written in Scripture that indicates the timing of the "beast" or Antichrist's reign as it relates to the Two Witnesses. You have divided this into two 3.5 year segments, not Scripture - therefore an assumption.


Hi Mr Baldy,

I'd like to first point out something. I did not mention the antichrist in this short outline. If you want to insert "Antichrist", I'd like to point out it is just that - your insertion. And how it may affect your reading of my words, I don't know. But you've used it in your rebuttal as if I had said it.

I wonder sometimes how many times it happens that people read into my words, or even the Bible's words, things that aren't there, and then act as if they were?

I've said beast, not antichrist, and carefully so. Because this is what the Bible says. Yet you drop this word in as if I had used it, and then argue against that.

This is actually a classic example of the "straw man" fallacy.

I'm not talking about the antichrist, you are. I'm talking about the beast. So wherever you have based your response as if I had said antichrist, you may want to reconsider.

I've used a simple logical formula that I thought was taught to everyone in high school. I don't know how old you are, and I do know that what passes for public education these days is nothing short of deplorable, at least around here! So maybe they don't cover this anymore.

If a=/=b, and b=c, then a=/=c.

If a is not equal to b, and if b is equal to c, then a is not equal to c.

If "witnesses cannot be killed for 3.5 years"
If "beast is given power for 3.5 years"
and "beast kills witnesses"

A=3.5 years during which witnesses cannot be killed
B=3.5 years during which witnesses can be killed
C=3.5 years during which beast is given power.

The 3.5 years during with the witnesses cannot be killed cannot be the same 3.5 years during which they can.

Then the following conclusions can be drawn.

The 3.5 years do not overlap. The beast doesn't have power so long as the witnesses cannot be killed.

The time of the beast's power follows the time of the witnesses' immunity. After the witnesses are killed, they rise, and ascend into heaven. Therefore this must be after their 42 months of testimony, not before.

There is a 7 year period described here, the first 3.5 years during which the two witness cannot be killed, the second 3.5 years during with the two witness can be killed. And in fact are.

I've shown my reasoning using the logical formula I am basing my conclusion on.

I'm showing a word for word description showing the application of this logic. I'm using simple and straightforward statements from Scripture.

This is a detailed explanation. Not just, you are incredibly assuming.

So, instead of simply giving a sweeping declaration that I am "incredibly assuming", I like for you to review what I've just written above, and with equal detail and clarity, please show me where you feel I am making assumptions not supported in the text.

And personally, I'd like to see this cleared up before we move on from this.

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:05 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:And that is intellectual dishonesty, the advocacy of a position either known to be false, or suspected to be false but without concern for verification.

The difference in Unwillingness to consider another idea and "intellectual dishonesty" is this mark.

You Either "Know" your position to be true, OR you Do NOT "Suspect your opinion to be false". You are concerned about verification however.

Because "Concern" can be either complete or incomplete, slight or great, That makes the difference.
Because of that difference, I have Not accused you of "intellectual dishonesty".


Shorttribber,

Again, call it what you want. It does not change what you do. And I'm personally very weary with it.

Since I've called upon you to support your positions with Scripture you've been after me in every way imaginable.

In the above, you have stated a "difference in Unwillingness to consider another idea and "intellectual dishonesty". Two different things.

Then you've gone on to define one by it's variance to the other, as if they were both different degrees of the same thing.

So . . . two words for the same thing. An unwillingness to believe. - in your words - the same as "intellectual dishonesty", the only difference being the amount of concern over verification.

It's always fun, but not good for your waistline, to both have your cake, and eat it to.

You can change your statement from, "Unwillingness to believe", which is what you said first, to, "unwillingness to spend the time in research." You are not gaslighting me.

"Unwillingness to believe." These were your words, and to these words I am responding, unless you were to specifically retract them. And that doesn't mean just trying to convince as all you never said that.

What blows my mind is how much time and effort you are spending when a simple "I'm sorry" would be just fine.

But so long as you want to defend your right to say whatever you want of me without support, and without even acknowledging you've said it? What's really to respond to?

I can't get a clear answer from you, I cannot get Scriptural support for your ideas, and I get a lot of personal attacks instead. Lots of fun.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:07 am

mark s wrote:So . . . two words for the same thing. An unwillingness to believe. - in your words - the same as "intellectual dishonesty", the only difference being the amount of concern over verification.


I should not have said "unwillingness to believe". I am sorry, it's not the least bit difficult for me either mark.
I didn't realize I said it that exact way...and I was incorrect in doing so.

I also tried to define the difference between "intellectual dishonesty" and what I felt you were actually doing.

but you are right in that I said "unwillingness to believe". Again, I'm sorry about that.

mark s wrote:Since I've called upon you to support your positions with Scripture you've been after me in every way imaginable.

I don't think I've been "after you mark", and I have provided plenty of scripture I think.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:40 am

mark s wrote:I'd like to first point out something. I did not mention the antichrist in this short outline. If you want to insert "Antichrist", I'd like to point out it is just that - your insertion. And how it may affect your reading of my words, I don't know. But you've used it in your rebuttal as if I had said it.


Tomato - Tamato; Potato - Potato…..here in lies your "strawman" rebuttal. You see if you can't identify the beast in any portion of your argument as the Antichrist your points are simply moot as they don't adhere to Scripture and are simply your opinion. The "beast" and the coming Antichrist are synonymous - and you just simply cannot get around that.

mark s wrote:I wonder sometimes how many times it happens that people read into my words, or even the Bible's words, things that aren't there, and then act as if they were?


Now this certainly appears to be a very smug statement in that your are comparing your comments to what is documented in Scripture - is this not a form of pride and arrogance?

mark s wrote:I've used a simple logical formula that I thought was taught to everyone in high school. I don't know how old you are, and I do know that what passes for public education these days is nothing short of deplorable, at least around here! So maybe they don't cover this anymore.


Wow! Are you mad bro :humm: This is by far the most arrogant statement that I have seen written by a moderator. I got rather thick skin, and I am well over the age of 50 - but was a comment like this really necessary?

mark s wrote:The 3.5 years during with the witnesses cannot be killed cannot be the same 3.5 years during which they can.


This your opinion - and Most certainly an ASSUMPTION on your part. This is what you believe and you haven't provided one iota of Scripture to prove this very incredible assumption.

mark s wrote:The time of the beast's power follows the time of the witnesses' immunity. After the witnesses are killed, they rise, and ascend into heaven. Therefore this must be after their 42 months of testimony, not before.


Scripture please - not Mark's ASSUMPTION

mark s wrote:There is a 7 year period described here, the first 3.5 years during which the two witness cannot be killed, the second 3.5 years during with the two witness can be killed. And in fact are.


Why don't you put Scripture where your statements are?

mark s wrote:So, instead of simply giving a sweeping declaration that I am "incredibly assuming", I like for you to review what I've just written above, and with equal detail and clarity, please show me where you feel I am making assumptions not supported in the text.


I've provided Scripture Mark - how about you :humm:
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:18 pm

Mark,

They (the two witnesses) testify unharmed for 3.5 years...Then....AFTER they Finish their testimony they are put to death.


6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The 3.5 years during with the witnesses cannot be killed cannot be the same 3.5 years during which they can.
They are killed After the 3.5 years that they can't be killed mark.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:29 pm

Mr. Baldy, So rather that make any kind of actual response, this is simply a lengthy Ad Hominem, yet another logical fallacy.

Not one actual rebuttal to anything I wrote! Just . . . are you crazy???

So sad!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:33 pm

shorttribber wrote:Mark,

They (the two witnesses) testify unharmed for 3.5 years...Then....AFTER they Finish their testimony they are put to death.


6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The 3.5 years during with the witnesses cannot be killed cannot be the same 3.5 years during which they can.
They are killed After the 3.5 years that they can't be killed mark.


Exactly my point.

They have 3.5 years during which they cannot be killed. Then there are 3.5 years within which the beast has power over the saints to overcome them. This is demonstrated by the beast killing the witnesses. After their 3.5 years. During the beast's 3.5 years. Which comes after their 3.5 years.
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Re: Timing in the Revelation

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:34 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
mark s wrote:I wonder sometimes how many times it happens that people read into my words, or even the Bible's words, things that aren't there, and then act as if they were?


Now this certainly appears to be a very smug statement in that your are comparing your comments to what is documented in Scripture - is this not a form of pride and arrogance?


A simple example . . . My statement, that I wonder how often people read things into my words, and wondering how many times people read into the Bible's words, is presented as if I were making out like my words were comparable to Scripture.

Smug. Proud. Arrogant.

And yet, the reality is, this is the same sort of statement as saying, people have read my words, and they've read the Bible's words. Does that make my words Bible?? Of course not!

Just a chance to say I'm smug, proud and arrogant.

This so that you need not answer to the fact that I'm speaking of the beast, not the antichrist, and you wish to respond as if I'm speaking of the antichrist, and then argue against that. Ergo, straw man. I'm speaking within a chapter that does not address antichrist, and I'm only speaking of the details contained in that chapter.

The beast may or may not be the antichrist, the point is, that's a different question.

But that's how all this has been going, and does not seem to be letting up.

If anyone wants to review to find those questions and statements that they have ignored up to now, they are all there in the thread.

Anyway, enough of this. Obviously not an edifying discussion.
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