Satanic Oppression

by **jgilberAZ** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:02 pm

This is somewhat related to this question/answer in the "Books" section: Unmasking the Jezebel Spirit

I'm sure we all agree that Christians cannot be possessed by demons. But, can they be oppressed?

Here's what I mean ... can a Christian be influenced IN THEIR MIND by satan and/or his minion?
Or, is satan's only God-approved method of operation to influence those who are by choice under his control?

Or put another way, if someone is not a child of God, said individual is automatically a child of satan. So, satan can therefore manipulate unbelievers to act in certain ways.

He tempts us, therefore, by controlling those unbelievers around us ... and has no direct input into our thoughts and/or behaviors at all.

For instance, if our flesh is weak in the area of physical lust, satan cannot put a thought into our minds to go and seek out someone in order to satisfy that lust. He can, however, influence a non-believer to dress seductively and to attempt to seduce us. This is how he tempts us to sin.

Beyond that, it's our own flesh that causes us to have sinful thoughts.

James wrote:But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
(Jas 1:14-15)

Bottom line ... the book, above, teaches that there is a Jezebel spirit that oppresses Christians and causes them to manipulate and seduce and what-not in order to cause chaos in a church.

If there even is a Jezebel-type spirit, I don't know that it's even possible for a Christian to be directly influenced in that manner. If someone is manipulative and strives for control, that's their own fleshly lusts being acted out. It's not some demonic influence in the Christian's life.

Agree or disagree?

Where do we draw the line between our own fleshly desires and the influence of demonic spirits?

- Jeff

by **Abiding in His Word** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:08 pm

Hi Jeff,

Just for clarification....I notice you mention unbelievers several times in your post. So is the general question that unbelievers in the church are the problem or the ones with the "Jezebel spirit?"

by **extravagantchristian** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:16 pm

I look at it like this, our minds are unique because it is the place where the physical world meets the spiritual realm. It's pretty amazing when you think about it. So, I believe that all spirits in the spiritual realm have access to our minds, if we let them in. I think it can start by a thought and then turn into a thought pattern, and I believe our negative thought patterns allow demons access to our minds, and cause our natural desires to sin to become even stronger. I believe they are all around us, whispering thoughts to our minds, and I certainly do not think that anyone is exempt from that, no matter how holy you are.

I believe a Christian can fall into negative thought patterns, allowing a demonic stronghold in their minds, making it harder for them to repent, but certainly not impossible to break free from. You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. Demons gain their footholds through our beliefs.

As far as Christians causing problems in church, it is our own sinful nature that wants to cause trouble.

James 4:1-3
1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

I don't think there is one mysterious Jezebel spirit to blame, I think a lot of times we are to blame, and demonic activity is a lot more common than we realize.

by **Salty Skipper** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:22 pm

Are negative thought patterns really demonic oppression manifest or are they simply man's fallen nature at work? :thinking:

by **extravagantchristian** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:27 pm

Salty, I think it can be both and it's not always real clear to us how involved demons are, but we certainly cannot discount their ability to influence our minds.

by **mark s** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:27 pm

Hi Jeff,

I agree with you, I think.

I don't know whether or not demons can "whisper a thought into your mind", but even if they can, they cannot cause you to sin.

As you quoted from James, our own lusts are the source of our sins. Our fallen nature provides all we need to commit sin, without any help from anyone.

I don't really know what "demonic oppression of a believer" means, unless its just a way to try to get unBiblical concepts inserted into Christian doctrine, as if demons somehow could force you to sin.

So that's what I think, anyway!

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **extravagantchristian** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:34 pm

Mark S, unfortionatly demons can whisper thoughts to our minds. God sent a lying spirit to lie to Saul.

2 Chron 18

19 And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ 21 So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ 22 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”

Mark 8:33
But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

See how Jesus own disciple was speaking to Him, but Jesus rebuked Peter by speaking directly to Satan, because the Lord knew that Peter's thoughts were being influenced, even though Peter himself did not realize it.

It is probably more common than we realize.

by **extravagantchristian** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:38 pm

mark s wrote:

I don't really know what "demonic oppression of a believer" means, unless its just a way to try to get unBiblical concepts inserted into Christian doctrine, as if demons somehow could force you to sin.

Christians can certainly be oppressed by spirits. Spirits of depression, anger, ect. But I mentioned earlier, we already have those evil desires because of our sin nature, so we cannot say that demons force us to sin, only encourage us. Such as Satan did to Eve in the garden of eden.

Spirits can LIE to us, AND spirits can manipulate our emotions. But Jesus has given us the power to rebuke them.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:56 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:Where do we draw the line between our own fleshly desires and the influence of demonic spirits?

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the discernment of spirits. This particular gift is a supernatural ability to discern the presence of a spirit behind what may appear a natural, fleshly situation. Many believers confuse this supernatural gift with a "natural" discernment, but that's not the purpose of this gift.

The best two examples of the exercise of this gift are these:

1) .....It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation." She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment. Act 16:16-18

2) From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You." But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." Mat 16:21-23

In both cases there was a spirit behind what was being said and by the Holy Spirit it was recognized and dealt with. The Holy Spirit distributes this gift as He wills but it is definitely a supernatural gift and not one that we can use at will but only as He determines.

by **mark s** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:26 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Mark S, unfortionatly demons can whisper thoughts to our minds. God sent a lying spirit to lie to Saul.

2 Chron 18

19 And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ 21 So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ 22 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”

This was not a spirit "whispering thoughts into Saul's mind", it was a spirit that lied to Saul through the mouths of the false prophets. This is not an example of an unclean spirit putting thoughts into the mind of a regenerate.

Mark 8:33
But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

See how Jesus own disciple was speaking to Him, but Jesus rebuked Peter by speaking directly to Satan, because the Lord knew that Peter's thoughts were being influenced, even though Peter himself did not realize it.

Perhaps, or perhaps Jesus was calling Peter His adversary, which is what the word means. I think either is possible. Even so, does this mean that demons have access to the mind of the regenerate? They had not yet been born again.

It is probably more common than we realize.

Is there any Scripture that addresses this directly?

Scripture identifies God as the "one" who searches are hearts. That seems to mean to me that fallen angels and demons cannot "read our minds".

Can you think of any Scriptures which give clear teaching on this?

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **extravagantchristian** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:02 pm

Mark, I cannot think of any scripture that says satan can't read our minds.

James 4:7
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

How would the devil flee from us if he wasn't tempting us in person? And since we cannot see or hear him, he must have some access to our minds. Not to FORCE us to sin, but to lie to us and encourage us to sin, just like he did to Eve in the garden of Eden.

The whole point of Eph 6, which is FOR regenerated believers, is that we don't wrestle flesh and blood, we wrestle the spirits, and the purpose for everysingle piece of armor listed it to protect our minds, not our bodies.
Not so that we could be protected from ourselves, but from the wiles of the devil.

Truth
Rightousness
Gospel
Faith
Knowledge of Salvation
Prayer

Eph. 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

by **Resurrection Torchlight** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:35 pm

What about Job? God allowed Satan to test him, in fact the Lord points out Job's righteousness and directs Satan's attention to him. So where did the temptation come from? Apparently Satan was allowed to order circumstances in such a way to bring calamity into Job's life, yet in all of Satan's attempts Job never blamed God, Job remained faithful and righteous, he was not enticed or carried away by his own lusts.

My own thoughts are that unrepented sin makes us vulnerable to temptation, when we sew to the flesh we are following after its lusts. This is why confession and repentance are so important to the believer, but when we hang on to stubborn sins we feed the lusts of our flesh which in turn weakens our defenses further. Temptation is a testing of our faith, it shows who we truly serve- the Lord or our fleshly lusts. Once we put it into perspective it makes it easier to resist, and remember :

1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

The way of escape is Jesus- flee from the response of the flesh toward Christ so you can endure it.

RT

by **extravagantchristian** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:03 pm

It's interesting the way Satan was able to cause illness in Job. That shows Satan's ability to affect our bodies, including our minds, which happen to be spiritual as well as physical.

It makes me think about bacteria and viruses, how is it that Satan has control over them? They are living things. I wonder if harmful bacteria and parasites existed in the garden of Eden. And what wasps and mosquitos? Was it part of God's perfect plan that Adam and Eve get stung in the butt by wasps and mosquitos? And what about fleas and ticks? Maybe they are evil! :humm:

by **Keeping Alert** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:38 pm

For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1Cor 2:16

I don't know too much about this topic but I know we are given not only a sound mind but also we have the mind of Christ.

I find it difficult to reconcile that the mind of Christ can be tempted/manipulated by Satan. Externally, perhaps Satan can tempt us even as Christ was tempted externally but internally for us who are believers, the struggle is between sinful flesh and the Spirit of God imho.

by **extravagantchristian** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:09 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1Cor 2:16

I don't know too much about this topic but I know we are given not only a sound mind but also we have the mind of Christ.

I find it difficult to reconcile that the mind of Christ can be tempted/manipulated by Satan. Externally, perhaps Satan can tempt us even as Christ was tempted externally but internally for us who are believers, the struggle is between sinful flesh and the Spirit of God imho.

KA, if we walk in the spirit we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh, but just because we are born again, doesn't mean that we are walking in the spirit 100% of the time. Yes, God has given us the Holy Spirit which can give us a sound mind, but do we have a sound mind 24/7 365 days a year? That would be impossible. We are humans and sometimes we give into fear and other fleshly mindsets. That is why Timothy had to remind them to "stir up the gift that God has given them" and not give in to fear. That's why we are told to "gird up the loins of your mind".

2 Timothy 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

And if Satan can only tempt us externally, then how is it that if we resist him he will flee from us??? How would he even be able to flee from us if he were not right there with us, and if he's right there with us, then it must be in spirit because I for one have never seen or herd him tempting me as Jesus did.

by **Keeping Alert** on Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:05 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:and if he's right there with us, then it must be in spirit because I for one have never seen or herd him tempting me as Jesus did.

Perhaps he does not personally tempt us as often as we give him credit for? :dunno:

by **extravagantchristian** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:16 am

Keeping Alert wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:and if he's right there with us, then it must be in spirit because I for one have never seen or herd him tempting me as Jesus did.

Perhaps he does not personally tempt us as often as we give him credit for?

Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

How can he flee from us if he is not with us in person?

by **jgilberAZ** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:25 am

Abiding in His Word wrote: is the general question that unbelievers in the church are the problem or the ones with the "Jezebel spirit?"

The question is: Can a demonic spirit oppress a Christian? And specifically, if Jezebel behaved the way she did because she was possessed by a demon, can that same demon oppress Christians and cause them to behave the same way Jezebel did?

extravagantchristian wrote: … I believe that all spirits in the spiritual realm have access to our minds …

But, where is the scriptural support for such a belief?

mark s wrote: Our fallen nature provides all we need to commit sin, without any help from anyone.

Agreed.

extravagantchristian wrote: God sent a lying spirit to lie to Saul.

The lying spirit spoke to Saul through his false prophets. This is just what I’m saying. Satan can influence us by manipulating those who are his … the unbelievers around us. He did not, and I don’t believe can, directly put a thought into Saul’s mind. The verses you supplied (2 Chronicles 18:19-22) actually support my position, not yours.

Mark already addressed Jesus referring to Peter as Satan … the root word can be translated “adversary,” which is exactly how Peter was behaving at the time … he was adversarial to God’s divine plan.

extravagantchristian wrote:Such as Satan did to Eve in the garden of eden.

Satan spoke to Eve externally through a serpent. He did not put a thought into Eve’s mind. Again, the verse you to which you refer supports my position, not yours.

abiding in his word wrote: In both cases there was a spirit behind what was being said and by the Holy Spirit it was recognized and dealt with.

I agree that the Paul reference is an evil spirit working in and through an unbeliever (Act 16:16-18). But, I think Peter was acting in his flesh, and there was no evil spirit manipulating him to respond as he did.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 4567&t=kjv

1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to
a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ
1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin
2) circumventing men by his wiles
3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control
4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases
5) by God's assistance he is overcome
6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment
b) a Satan-like man

OBXBob wrote:These verses (1 Peter 5:8-9) seem to indicate Satan is proactive...

Satan is, of course, walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may destroy. But, this does not support the idea that he can manipulate Christians by directly placing thoughts into their minds. It can support the idea that he can cause us to stumble by ordering the events/circumstances/unbelievers around us. Ie, the passage does not require direct manipulation of a Christian’s thoughts or behaviors. Walking in the flesh is all we need to do in order to make it possible for satan to be successful at causing us to stumble.

extravagantchristian wrote: I cannot think of any scripture that says satan can't read our minds.

You cannot argue from the negative. There are a lot of things scripture doesn’t say. That does not mean they are true.

extravagantchristian wrote: How would the devil flee from us if he wasn't tempting us in person?

How does the schoolyard bully flee from you when you resist him? He is bullying you from the outside, not placing thoughts into your mind. Yet, when you resist, he moves on to someone else.

extravagantchristian wrote: The whole point of Eph 6, which is FOR regenerated believers, is that we don't wrestle flesh and blood, we wrestle the spirits, …

But, does that battle take place in our minds? I don’t think so.

extravagantchristian wrote:… and the purpose for every single piece of armor listed it to protect our minds, not our bodies.

I’m sorry, but I just don’t see that in the passage.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote: Apparently Satan was allowed to order circumstances in such a way to bring calamity into Job's life …

But, never to directly put thoughts in Job’s mind. Job was responsible for his own thoughts.

extravagantchristian wrote: That shows Satan's ability to affect our bodies, including our minds, which happen to be spiritual as well as physical.

The book of Job does not support Satan being able to affect our minds. Bodies, yes. Minds, no.

keeping alert wrote: I find it difficult to reconcile that the mind of Christ can be tempted/manipulated by Satan. Externally, perhaps Satan can tempt us even as Christ was tempted externally but internally for us who are believers, the struggle is between sinful flesh and the Spirit of God imho.

Agreed.

More food for thought ...

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
(Act 10:38)

Did Jesus cast out demons from those who were possessed or oppressed, or does scripture not make such a distinction?

.

by **extravagantchristian** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:26 am

jgilberAZ wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote: How would the devil flee from us if he wasn't tempting us in person?

How does the schoolyard bully flee from you when you resist him? He is bullying you from the outside, not placing thoughts into your mind. Yet, when you resist, he moves on to someone else.

Yes, schoolyard bullies bully us physically, but satan does not because he does not have a body, he is invisable. He can't punch us, or push us down because we don't wrestle with flesh and blood. We wrestle with spirits. How else can you wrestle with spirits other than with your own mind and spirit?

by **jgilberAZ** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:46 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:He can't punch us, or push us down because we don't wrestle with flesh and blood.

But, he (or his demons) can attack us through others. He can cause unbelievers to punch us or push us down.

We win the battle, however, by not fighting back, by showing grace and mercy to our attackers, and by harboring no ill will towards them.

That's how we fight against Satan and his demons ... we don't allow them to cause us to stumble, and we pray for the salvation of those under his control.

Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
(Act 19:13-16)

- Jeff

by **extravagantchristian** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:21 pm

Jeff, Eph 6 does not say anything about responding to unbelievers, it talks about wrestling with spirits.

by **jgilberAZ** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:48 pm

Eph. 6
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Our fellow humans are not the enemy (we do not wrestle against flesh and blood). Our enemy is the devil (the ruler of darkness) and his demons (spiritual hosts of wickedness) who are causing the evil.

Ephesians 6 in no way supports the argument that Christians can be demonically oppressed.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

- Jeff

by **mark s** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:56 pm

It occurs to me to ask, seeing that Paul wrote, "our wrestling is not against flesh and blood", why would he have needed to explain that, or clarify this, unless it seemed that our wrestling were against flesh and blood?

by **Spreading Salt** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:01 pm

This daily devotion seems appropriate to this discussion: http://www.joncourson.com/ :a2:

by **jgilberAZ** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:37 pm

If I understand and rejoice in the blood of Christ, demonic powers are nakedly impotent. But they are squatters nonetheless. They won’t leave until I say, ‘Hey, you gotta go! I’m not going to listen to this depression you’re whispering in my ear this morning. I’m not going to buy it because of the blood of Jesus Christ.’

But, where is the scriptural support for stating that demonic powers can "whisper in my ear?"

- Jeff

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:16 pm

Jesus made it clear imho that these sins are conceived in the heart of man:

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. (Mat 15:19 NASB)

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries....(Mar 7:21 NASB)

So to me, these sins originate from the flesh. If satan is behind a thought, word, or action, it would take the gift of supernatural discernment to recognize that. Our flesh is weak....

"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." (Mar 14:38 NASB)

I think we give satan way too much credit for influence in the life of a regenerated, born -of-the-spirit believer.

by **mark s** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:27 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:I think we give satan way too much credit for influence in the life of a regenerated, born -of-the-spirit believer.

I agree.

James 1:14-15
(14) But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them.
(15) Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death.

I think Satan can use outside influences to appeal to our lusts.

What would the difference be, I wonder, between "Satan whispering in your ear" and the "lusts of the flesh/eyes/mind" trying to exert their way?

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **extravagantchristian** on Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:53 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:
If I understand and rejoice in the blood of Christ, demonic powers are nakedly impotent. But they are squatters nonetheless. They won’t leave until I say, ‘Hey, you gotta go! I’m not going to listen to this depression you’re whispering in my ear this morning. I’m not going to buy it because of the blood of Jesus Christ.’

But, where is the scriptural support for stating that demonic powers can "whisper in my ear?"

- Jeff

Whisper is probably not the best term, but the idea is that satan and other demons are, at times, able to lie to us by communicating certain thoughts to our minds. Not in an audiable voice of course.

I think that ephesians 6 refers to it as "fiery darts".

You all agree that it is possible for this to happen to unbelievers, all I am saying is that our minds can still be vulnerable (at times when we are not walking in the spirit) to the lies of the devil.

So far no one has been able to find any scriptural support stating that the devil and demons to not have the power to continue to influence our minds after we are regenerated.

Are there any verses that show that once we get born again, our minds suddenly become off-limits to the devil?

by **jgilberAZ** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:22 am

extravagantchristian wrote:... no one has been able to find any scriptural support stating that the devil and demons to not have the power to continue to influence our minds ...

You cannot argue from the negative ... ie, there is no scripture that says the devil can't influence us, so therefore he must be able to.

Scripture doesn't say a lot of things. But, we must stand on what God's Word SAYS, not on what it DOESN'T say.

List of Logical Fallacies

Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance). This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

Or, to restate that in relation to this discussion: someone might argue that the devil can mess with our minds because scripture doesn't say that he can't. But, failing to prove that he can't is not the same as proving he can.

I think enough scripture has been provided to support the conclusion that he can only affect unbelievers (who are slaves to sin) and the physical realm (to the extent God allows). We are responsible for our own thoughts.

I'm good with agreeing to disagree. This thread has allowed me to work through this topic in my mind to the point that I believe my view is aligned with scripture, or, it is at least not in conflict with scripture. I have no need to convince anyone else. I just need to know that I am not straying from the truth, that's all.

:blessyou:

.

by **jgilberAZ** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:56 am

I think this is on target:

http://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2007/0 ... ery-darts/

Mike Ratliff wrote:The schemes of the devil take many forms, but when they come into contact with a believer they take the form of a temptation. For most of my Christian walk I have always assumed that temptations involved lusts of some kind or perhaps had something to do with stealing, murder, or lying. I have always applied these temptations to some sort of beguilement that would entangle us into sins against the standards we find in the Ten Commandments. However, there is another form of these temptations from our enemy, fiery darts or flaming darts, which are enticements to react towards an offense from a platform of self-righteousness. For example, someone cuts you off in traffic, or keeps changing lanes in front of you so that no mater what you do you can’t pass them, or someone steals your parking place, or deliberately drives slow in front of you, or drives in such a way that you must adjust to them is a way that you don’t want to do.

Notice that all of my examples had to do with driving. However, if you ever go shopping in Wal-Mart or Target or the Mall or the grocery store you will encounter pretty much the same sort of disregard for common courtesy that is rampant on our roads. If you have a high standard for these things then our enemy knows how to shoot you with many fiery darts in order for you to react in a way that is not Christ-like.

emphasis mine

OBXBob wrote:how different would the everyday life of a believer be today if Satan were to have already been bound in the Abyss, just as he will be for most of the MK?

Wow. Difficult question. I'm going to have to think on that.

.

by **mark s** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:18 am

Hi Bob, Jeff,

The fiery darts are quenched by the shield of faith, so then can we safely assume that these darts are such as work contrary to faith?

Faith is contrasted to sight, "our walk is by faith, not be sight".

I'm thinking that these fiery darts are something we perceive that appears contrary to what God says, attempting to induce us to disregard His Word in favor of what we perceive - to walk by sight, not by faith.

Maintaining our belief in God's Word is what keeps us from being detoured into walking by sight, and thus quenches the fiery darts - puts out their fire.

Things which come that say "God doesn't love you", "God isn't protecting you", "you are not one of His", things like this are what I'm thinking.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **extravagantchristian** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:48 am

jgilberAZ wrote:Argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument to ignorance). This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false. For example, someone might argue that global warming is certainly occurring because nobody has demonstrated conclusively that it is not. But failing to prove the global warming theory false is not the same as proving it true.

Or, to restate that in relation to this discussion: someone might argue that the devil can mess with our minds because scripture doesn't say that he can't. But, failing to prove that he can't is not the same as proving he can.

I see what you're trying to say, and I wouldn't base a belief on just the fact that scripture does not discount it. But I think the word prooves that satan can still communicate with our minds (when we're not walking in the spirit), with Eph 6 and Matthew 16 as examples.

Jesus rebuked Peter's words by addressing Satan directly. "Get behind me Satan"

Matthew 16
21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

I think enough scripture has been provided to support the conclusion that he can only affect unbelievers (who are slaves to sin) and the physical realm (to the extent God allows). We are responsible for our own thoughts.

I haven't seen any at all :grin:

I do agree that we are responsible for our own thoughts, because although satan can make suggestions to us, we are able to resist him, and he will flee from us.

But we can certainly agree to disagree. :hugs2:

I just don't see how you can base a belief on your opinion only, with no scripture to support it. And I don't see how you can be so adamantly against what I am saying when there is no scripture to discount it.

By the way, I just want to say that I too think the devil gets too much credit sometimes. I think that our sinful thoughts and actions are a direct result of our own wicked hearts.

by **extravagantchristian** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:24 am

If I may...

Eph 6:11 says: 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

So when it says: 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

I would think that the wicked one is the devil.

by **mark s** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:37 am

extravagantchristian wrote:If I may...

Eph 6:11 says: 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

So when it says: 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

I would think that the wicked one is the devil.

Hi EC,

That's a good point.

But I think the text allows for a greater application:

Ephesians 6:11-13
(11) Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
(12) For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
(13) Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

It seems to me that we stand against the schemes of the devil as we prevail in our wrestling against rulers and authorities, powers and forces of evil, these being spiritual - 'in the heavenlies'.

The armor we wear enables us to 'withstand in the evil day'.

When we come to verse 16, "the fiery darts of the evil (one)", it doesn't really narrow it down for us whether this is a specific evil one, an unspecified evil one, or whatever may be evil.

As I see all of these presented in the text, I can't give a conclusive answer, and support it from the text.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:35 pm

OBXBob wrote:Thanks Mark,

So if at least some of the fiery darts come from Satan or his 'co-workers' (:lol:), what do you believe to be the delivery mechanism(s) for these fiery darts?

Hi Bob,

Well, that seems to be what we're discussing! :lol:

How indeed?

It seems the question we are looking at is . . . through circumstances, or directly into the mind?

I don't think Satan can "read" our minds, since the Bible identifies God as "the One Who searches the hearts and minds".

Rev 2:23 ". . . And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart . . ."

So then if Satan can't look into our minds, can he put things directly into it?

I haven't been able to think of any Scripture that says he can.

Meanwhile, there seems to be a number of Scriptures that talk about Satan and his minions attacking us through others, and through circumstances.

Again, darts are typically aimed at a single target, in Ephesians 6, it would seem the target is specifically the believer.

I would agree with this.

Do you think the term 'evil' includes the inherent fleshy nature of fallen man, or do you think it is reserved to the evil in the spiritual realm?

In the context of Eph. 6:16, I've more thought of it in terms of external evil, but I'd have to think about this. I haven't really considered it that way before.

Last question...how do you believe Satan or his 'co-workers' deliver their fiery darts to a believer?

This seems like the first question . . . :lol:

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:40 pm

OBXBob wrote:Thanks Mark,

What I'm wondering is how many of the attacks on believers from non-believers are based on Satan and his minions 'whispering' in the ear of the unbeliever, or whether most unbelievers, who do not want to admit that there is God, and don't want to be held accountable for their actions, would be very capable of making the same comments to believers if Satan were not in the picture at all.

We know from Jesus that those in the dark hate the light, and those in the dark are basically all who do not know Jesus. So, can Satan be blamed for those in the 'dark' wanting to try to 'burst' the light that's in a believer?

YBIC,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Scripture speaks of those "taken captive to do his will", and "the spirit who works in the children of disobedience", so I think that some of it at least is from the devil.

However, as you say, those in darkness hate the light. Jesus said the world will hate us, as it hated Him.

So I think it comes from both.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:02 pm

I believe overall scripture from beginning to end portrays Satan's primary goal as turning believers away from God and keeping unbelievers away from God. This might be accomplished by in a variety of ways if we are not alert and protected with our armor.

But we cannot be dogmatic about how satan works or through what/whom firey darts come at us. Darts can be:

* false teachers/false doctrines (causing a falling away from faith in God) 1 Tim. 4:1
* discouragement (which turns us away from faith in God) Hebrews 12:3
* bad company (which corrupts our morals) 1 Cor. 15:33
* our own family members (turning us away from God) Matthew 10:36
* tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, sword Rom. 8:35

I think it's very telling that Paul doesn't list sin as separating believers from God and goes to great lengths to remind us that Jesus paid the price for our shortcomings, faults, and failures. He does, however, list things outside of our control as being important to stand fast against:

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39

Again, we see scripture focusing on separating us from God. That's satan's goal and the ever-present danger believers must guard against regardless of the channel thru which it comes.

by **extravagantchristian** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:05 pm

mark s wrote:
I don't think Satan can "read" our minds, since the Bible identifies God as "the One Who searches the hearts and minds".

Rev 2:23 ". . . And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart . . ."

It doesn't say that God is the ONLY ONE or even the ONE who can view our minds, all it says is that He does.

That does not discount the possibility that anyone else can.

Mark S, you agreed with me that the spirit of the devil can influence the minds of the lost, but then used this verse to say that God is the ONLY ONE who has access to the mind so which is it? :grin:

The bible clearly says that we are to stay on guard against the devil even after we get saved, we are to gird up the loins of our mind, resist the devil and he will flee from you, and reminds us that our battle is against wicked spirits. NOWHERE does the word promise us that when we get saved our minds become off limits to the devil, so why would we assume that is the case?

WHY... Does anyone have an answer?

Any verses?

Where does this theory come from?

by **mark s** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:39 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:
mark s wrote:
I don't think Satan can "read" our minds, since the Bible identifies God as "the One Who searches the hearts and minds".

Rev 2:23 ". . . And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart . . ."

It doesn't say that God is the ONLY ONE or even the ONE who can view our minds, all it says is that He does.

That does not discount the possibility that anyone else can.

Hi EC,

In saying, "I am He Who . . .", this presupposes that there isn't another.

Mark S, you agreed with me that the spirit of the devil can influence the minds of the lost, but then used this verse to say that God is the ONLY ONE who has access to the mind so which is it?

Not "access to the mind", can "can read minds".

The bible clearly says that we are to stay on guard against the devil even after we get saved, we are to gird up the loins of our mind, resist the devil and he will flee from you, and reminds us that our battle is against wicked spirits. NOWHERE does the word promise us that when we get saved our minds become off limits to the devil, so why would we assume that is the case?

The Bible says that the devil have taken the unrepentant captive to do his will, but it does not say that he has taken the repentant captive to do his will.

It says that the prince of the power of the air is spirit now working in the sons of disobedience, but not the obedient.

Resist the devil, but through what comes the attack? How did it come for Job? How did it come for Jesus? How did it come for Paul? What we are told is that it came through the unbelievers, and through circumstances.

Nowhere does the Word say that the devil has access into our minds, that I can think of. Before I would teach such a thing, I would need to see the actual Scripture that tells us that. I'm open to it if its there.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:43 pm

Resist the devil, but through what comes the attack? How did it come for Job? How did it come for Jesus? How did it come for Paul? What we are told is that it came through the unbelievers, and through circumstances.

I agree. And back to the OP....Jezebel was a heathen and Ahab married her. A marriage and/or an alliance with unbelievers is trouble. That's why God warned them not to make alliances with pagans. They would turn them away from Him. That's satan's goal...to turn believers away from God one way or another.

by **jgilberAZ** on Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:03 am

Which ties in well with this:

And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
(Rev 2:18-29)

The original Jezebel led God's people into idolatry. She became the "type or symbol" of those who do the same. Jesus tells the church at Thyatira that they have also allowed teachers/teachings which have led His servants into spiritual fornication, and judgment is coming ...

-

by **extravagantchristian** on Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:08 am

That's a good way to look at it Bob. Eve was also directly tempted by Satan.

by **mark s** on Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:31 am

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
(13) For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
(14) And did not Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light?
(15) It is not a great thing, then, if also his ministers transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

I think Satan can very well present himself to tempt the believer. Matt 4 describes a literal, personal encounter between Jesus and Satan (the temerity!).

Whether that happens by "speaking thoughts into one's mind" - as if they were their own - ?