Thoughts about suffering....

[Abiding in His Word]

I was thinking this might be an interesting and hopefully beneficial discussion. Does God orchestrate suffering in our lives? In other words, do you think suffering and dire circumstances we encounter originate from Him? Or are they the result of living in a sinful, loathesome, difficult environment (world)?

Does God use those situations and if so, what is the desired result?

Have you experienced suffering (physical or emotional) and/or dire, hopeless situations and looking back seen some spiritual fruit or a deeper trust in Him as a result?

I'd love to your thoughts....no debates or disagreements if you don't mind....just personal experiences of this nature resulting in spiritual growth.

[lamb7]

Just wanted you to know, Abiding, that I did read this. My answer would take an essay. lol. But, I do intend to post. I know there may be a few who might want to know something a bit more personal about me. (who is that person who keeps posting here???)

I could "kill two birds with one stone". Although my intention would be to hopefully bless any who may be going though the same thing I did and who could still be living in the despair of such a life. I am living proof that such a life can bring forth the joy of the Lord...poking a finger in the eye of any who would have wished me to fall. Take that

Studying and research takes a lot out of me. I sometimes think that the demand to throw off everything from this life, in order to pick up our crosses and follow Jesus was meant for our benefit. For to be able to convey our lives and the Word takes a lot of work and dedication and to have anything else to carry might hinder that task, although we all seem to trudge through nevertheless. Also to stay single. Again, another word of wisdom to help us in our walk, although many take it out of context.

Our lives are so full of "stuff" that it is hard to step away and give of ourselves the way we would like to. It is that way for me right now and I hate it.

So, I promise to try and give to the board the way so many of you have (and blessed me and others I'm sure) with my story of exactly what you ask.


Until that day, which I hope is soon,


In Christ,
lamb

[SwordofGideon]

I don't believe God orchestrates suffering, tho he may bring about uncomfortable circumstances to bring forth positive changes in us. It's usually during those difficult times that we turn to God and earnestly seek him the most. We all experience suffering as we live in a fallen world. It rains on the just and unjust. However living in an imperfect world does give us a unique perspective. How else could we develop characteristics like faith and perseverance or understand the depth of God's grace and mercy.

[Sunny]

Abiding, I definitely believe that God orchestrates suffering to build faith and character in us... and sometimes for the benefit of other people.

I am suffering with a pretty horrible condition right now, but I KNOW it is a test. Will I continue to trust Him when it looks like He isn't keeping His promises to me?

The answer is a definite yes... because I can look back on other impossible situations that He allowed me to get into and then brought me out of with increased faith, patience, perseverance and trust.

And then there is suffering that God uses to benefit other people. My Dad was a man after God's own heart, and walked with the Lord and served Him faithfully for years. The one thing Dad asked of God was that when it came time for him to die, that he would not suffer.

He suffered horribly... from prostate cancer turned to bone cancer. But during his suffering and hospitalization, THREE of my family members were saved. That would not have happened if he had passed peacefully and easily, as he had requested.

I'm sure now that Dad feels that his suffering was well worth what it cost him.

[extravagantchristian]

I think sometimes God puts us in circumstances where He knows we are going to fail, in order to correct us, so that we can eventualy learn and grow.

Like with Peter, Jesus warned him ahead of time, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

I think God arranged that to happen for a purpose, so that Peter would grow and be able to strengthen his brethren with his message of God's faithfulness. You never really understand the depth of God's faithfulness until you experience it for yourself.

[Mrs. B]

Re: Thoughts about suffering.....



I Peter 2:19....For this is Thankworthy...if a man for conscience toward God endure Grief, SUFFERING WRONGFULLY.

20....For What Glory is it, When Ye be Buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently?
But if, when ye do well.....and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, This is Acceptable with God.

21....For even Hereunto were ye called:
Because Christ also suffered for us......leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps;

22.....Who did No Sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23....Who, when He was reviled, reviled not again;
when he Suffered, he threated not; but committed Himself to Him that Judgeth Righteously:


3:14....But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye;
and be not aftaid of their terror, neither be troubled;

18...For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, The Just for the Unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh....But Quickened (or made a live) by the Spirit:


4:1....Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, Arm Yourselves Likewise with the Same Mind:
for he that hath suffered, in the flesh...hath ceased from sin;

2....That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh...to the lusts of men, But to the Will of God....

19....Wherefore let them that suffer according to the Will of God....Commit the Keeping of their Souls to Him in Well Doing, as unto a Faithful Creator......


5:10....But the God of All Grace....Who hath Called Us unto His Eternal Glory by Christ Jesus, After that ye have suffered a While, Make You Perfect...Stablish, strengthen, Settle you...

11....To Him Be Glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus said.....He that endureth unto the end shall be saved.....suffering is a part of our overcoming and growing up spiritually.....



Mrs. B

[plalgum]

I would just like to say that i am not qualified to wax lyrically about suffering,mainly because during suffering one does not feel that heroic about ones trials and ordeals.I am a coward to suffering.and any brave faces is only 1% of my demeanure,the other 99% is hiding away and feeling sorry for one self.However if you are suffering for Jesus i beleive that there is a joy,call it what you will "badge of honour" or a feeling of martyrdom,sharing with our Lords cause in this world,but the suffering that to me is the worst is suffering for nothing.At least we as Christians can turn our sufferings,whether cancer,bereavment,injury........Into something that we can gloryfy the Lord with,just as the previous poster stated about their father with bone cancer was able to do.
I feel that because death and desease came into this world through sin,that we are able to claim any suffering that are caused by this, in the name and cause of Christ, and gloryfy him through this.You dont have to be a missonary in a far of land to claim that you suffered for christ.

[laney]

Just think about Job and his sufferings...

[keithareilly]

We like to think of God as our all loving Father who would never hurt us.

But...

John 9:1-3
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Jesus said he was blinded for the glory of God.

That is who our God is.

Keith

[Salty Skipper]

I believe that bad things happen to everyone because we are living in a world fallen far from grace. From the time of Adam to the flood, the world began to crumble and has accelerated greatly since the flood. Ailments and sufferings weren't caused by God. They were caused by man, in that man was the reason for the fall. God allowed the fall so that His glory could be displayed in good times and in bad. My 0.02.

[extravagantchristian]

We like to think of God as our all loving Father who would never hurt us.

But...

John 9:1-3
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

Jesus said he was blinded for the glory of God.

That is who our God is.

Keith

Yes, God does hurt us sometimes. And He has His reasons for doing it. He sent Jesus to this fallen world to be killed. The suffering of Christ was God's idea.

Satan said to God:

Job 1:11
But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

God orcastrates suffering in our life for many different reasons.

To test our faith, like with Job.
To teach us a lesson, like with Peter.
To glorify God, like the blind man in John 9.
To cause us to gain character, patients, and endurance.
To punish us when we do wrong.
To cause us to feel pain, so that we might be able to feel the pain of others and minister to them.
To cause us to turn to HIm and cry out to Him, so that we can grow spiritually. Sometimes we get comfortable and we NEED a boost.

And it is my belief that THE reason why God allowed evil and suffering into this world in the first place is so that He could make known the richness of His love, mercy, faithfulness, and redemption. How could He do that in a perfect world?

You know, that's something the angels will never experience, only we know the Joy of being rescued and redeemed!!!

Suffering is not always a random thing that happens as a result of the fall.

Yes, God set up Adam and Eve in the Garden and the tree of Good and evil on purpose. Because He knew that man was not perfect. And He allowed the serpent in there on purpose too. Because He knew that eventually man would fail, it was bound to happen sooner or later. God set us up for failure so that He could be glorified. He wanted to reveal His love, He wanted to redeem us. How could God ever get the glory for the full depth of His unconditional love, if He never got a chance to display it? That's why it was God's plan all along that Jesus would suffer and die. The sacrafice that Jesus made was not an afterthought.

He also set us up for failure in the garden to test our faith. You notice how not everyone gets to go to heaven? Yeah, that's on purpose too. Before God allows us to become part of the bride for HIs Son, He wants us to love Him by faith. If you love me you will keep my commandments. It is impossible to please God without faith. And the testing of our FAITH would not be possible if it weren't for the fall.

[Abiding in His Word]

Yes sir! For God so loved the world that he set them up to fail....He set them up to fail so He could send His Son to experience a cruel, horrific death to redeem the very ones He set up to fail....all for His glory.

The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and the One who set me up to fail.

(sarcasm off.....)

Really? My sincere apologies for my sarcasm, but do you really believe this?

[ampersand]

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

[AndCanItBe]

God orcastrates suffering in our life for many different reasons.

To test our faith, like with Job.
To teach us a lesson, like with Peter.
To glorify God, like the blind man in John 9.
To cause us to gain character, patients, and endurance.
To punish us when we do wrong.
To cause us to feel pain, so that we might be able to feel the pain of others and minister to them.
To cause us to turn to HIm and cry out to Him, so that we can grow spiritually. Sometimes we get comfortable and we NEED a boost.

Yes, God orchestrates, but He orchestrates, or IMO disciplines us, by choosing when to allow Satan to do what he wants, when to allow us to do what we want, when to allow sickness to have it's way, when to allow another's sin into our lives. He does not author evil, and He doesn't set us up for failure. He wants us ultimately to rely on Him and triumph over our circumstances in a way that gives Him the glory. He promised to never leave us or forsake us in those circumstances, promised to never allow us to be tempted beyond what we can endure, to actually set us up for failure deliberately just so that we will fail, violates both of those promises. To allow us to have our own way and end up eating with the pigs, well, that is simply discipline. God is in no way responsible for any of our failures, we are.

Suffering is discipline and thank God for it, because the point is to bring us hope.

Romans 5

3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

[extravagantchristian]

When God put man, woman, a tree and a serpent in the garden, He knew Adam was bound to fail eventually. It was only a matter of time. That's what I mean by setting us up to fail. He did it for a greater purpose, so that Jesus could be our saviour. So that we could be redeemed. The Lamb was slain from the foundations of the world, meaning before Adam ever walked the earth, not as an afterthought to man's sin.

Why did Jesus tell us to pray to the Father each day that He would lead us not into temptation? Why would that even be necessary if God didn't still do that today, just like He did to Adam all those years ago?

I guess to clarify, when I say that God set Adam up to fail, I mean God lead him into temptation, knowing that Adam would fail. But I'm not implying that Adam didn't have a choice and that we don't have a choice. I know that God won't allow us to be tempted beyond what we can handle, Adam didn't HAVE to eat the fruit, just like we don't have to sin, but we do anyway, and God knew that all before He made us, and He went ahead and made us anyway, so therefore it must have been part of His plan to begin with. If He wanted us to be perfect He would have made us that way but He didn't and He has His reasons.

[Abiding in His Word]

I mean God lead him into temptation...

Aha! Then Adam was right when he blamed God! It's God who leads us into temptation knowing we will fail. I'm not responsible and neither was Adam. After all, God controls everything and He led Adam into temptation. It was His plan. Right? And then He went and banished him from the garden after leading Him into that temptation. How unfair! (sarcasm off again.... )

[extravagantchristian]

No, I said that Adam didn't have to sin, not that he had the right to blame God. He was simply tempted and failed.

Abiding,
Why did Jesus tell us to pray to the Father each day that He would lead us not into temptation? Why would that even be necessary if God didn't still do that today, just like He did to Adam all those years ago?

God clearly placed Adam in a place of temptation. You can't deny that.

[extravagantchristian]

I mean God lead him into temptation...

Aha! Then Adam was right when he blamed God! It's God who leads us into temptation knowing we will fail. I'm not responsible and neither was Adam. After all, God controls everything and He led Adam into temptation. It was His plan. Right? And then He went and banished him from the garden after leading Him into that temptation. How unfair! (sarcasm off again.... )

It's not about fair. Was it fair that Jesus had to die on the cross? Did He deserve that? No, life here on earth is unfair, love is unfair. Love suffers long, even when it didn't do anything to deserve it.

God wanted to demonstrate that in us since before we were even created and He did in the sacrifice of His Son.

Do you see how that would have never been possible if it weren't for the fall? How could God ever demonstrate His Love without having someone, a fallen human being to die for? God IS love. He allowed HIMSELF to be hurt, to reveal the depths of His love and mercy that even the angels cannot understand. Do you think that was all by accident? No it was ordained from the foundations of the world. Was it not?

[AndCanItBe]

James 1

13Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

[Abiding in His Word]

No, I said that Adam didn't have to sin, not that he had the right to blame God. He was simply tempted and failed.

The question is, extravagantchristian, who tempted Adam.

Abiding,
Why did Jesus tell us to pray to the Father each day that He would lead us not into temptation? Why would that even be necessary if God didn't still do that today, just like He did to Adam all those years ago?

First, there is no scripture that implies that God tempted Adam all those years ago. None. God set a rule; Adam chose to disobey. See this scripture:

Let no one being tempted say, I am tempted from God. For God is not tempted by evils, and He tempts no one. But each one is tempted by his lusts, being drawn away and seduced by them. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin. And sin, when it is fully formed, brings forth death. James 1:13-15

God clearly placed Adam in a place of temptation. You can't deny that.

Of course, I can deny that....and will! God set a rule; Adam chose to disobey it.

....For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners Rom 5:19

"Have I covered my transgressions like Adam, By hiding my iniquity in my bosom...Job 31:33

...But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me. Hosea 6:7

Scripture speaks clearly of Adam's disobedience; not of God's tempting him.

So how can you say that God does not ever lead us into temptation? When He so obviously did with Adam.

I can say that because scripture says God does not lead us into temptation to sin. Sin is borne in our heart and we are tempted by our own lusts. He has endowed us with a free will and the ability to choose. If He makes a rule and we choose to disobey it, the blame is on the one who disobeyed; not the one who made the rule.

If I bake 5 different kinds of cookies and tell my child he can eat any of them except the oatmeal cookies and that's the one he chooses to eat when I leave the room, did I tempt him to eat those? Or did I give him the choice to obey or not? Didn't I provide 4 other kinds of cookies for him to enjoy? Why did he choose the only one I said he shouldn't? I told him that the oatmeal cookies had an ingredient in them that he was allergic to, but the others did not. By his own choice to disobey, it caused him to break out in hives. He suffered the consequences of his own actions.

The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Adam had lots of choices, but he chose the only one he shouldn't have eaten from and God even told him why he shouldn't eat from it.

God made a rule; Adam disobeyed it.

But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. James 1:14-15

[extravagantchristian]

James 1

13Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

That's right, God does not tempt us. Did I say God tempted anyone? No I said that God lead Adam INTO temptation.

I don't think God was rooting for Adam to sin, but it's my opinion that God lead him into temptation knowing that he would fail for the reason of allowing us to all be born into a fallen world with fallen flesh so that He could reveal His Love to us by dieing on the cross.

I know it doesn't sound very fair or nice, but He's God He can do what He wants.

[extravagantchristian]

So how can you say that God does not ever lead us into temptation? When He so obviously did with Adam.

I can say that because scripture says God does not lead us into temptation to sin.

No it doesn't, infact Jesus told us to pray this way to the Father... "Lead us not into temptation"

Why?

That's something that you guys are failing to address.

Of course God doesn't tempt anyone. But there is difference between tempting and LEADING into temptation.

Why would Jesus tell us to ask God not to do something He never does? That would be like Jesus telling us to pray like this, "God please don't lie" Doesn't make any sense.

[AndCanItBe]

James 1

13Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

That's right, God does not tempt us. Did I say God tempted anyone? No I said that God lead Adam INTO temptation.

I don't think God was rooting for Adam to sin, but it's my opinion that God lead him into temptation knowing that he would fail for the reason of allowing us to all be born into a fallen world with fallen flesh so that He could reveal His Love to us by dieing on the cross.

I know it doesn't sound very fair or nice, but He's God He can do what He wants.

Yes, God can do what He wants. Actually since God is always just, and what we deserve is a swift destruction and a death sentence in Hell, there is absolutely nothing on this earth that happens to us that isn't fair. We may not be treated justly by others, but there is no such thing as "not fair" considering we're alive.

Anyway, I think Abiding already said it and you guys were posting at the same time, but the verses I posted also show that God doesn't lead us into temptation, our own lusts do.

Since I'm repeating Abiding now and taking rabbit trails, and it's Abiding's thread, I think I'll get out of the way and make this less confusing.

[extravagantchristian]

anditcanbe, before you go, can you answer my question since you don't believe that God can lead us into temptation...

Why would Jesus tell us to pray to the Father like this: "Lead us not into temptation"?

Why should we ask God to not do something He already never does? What would be the point of that?

[AndCanItBe]

I think "lead me not into temptation" means "keep me from temptation". One reason is Mark 14

37And He came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour?

38"Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Seems like the same thing to me.

[extravagantchristian]

hmm that's interesting how you changed the words. You took out the part where it says "lead me not into" and changed it to "keep me from" I don't know if I would be comfortable doing that.

And call me crazy but placing Adam and Eve in a garden with a forbidden tree and a talking serpent seems like leading them into temptation, but I guess that's just me.

[AndCanItBe]

hmm that's interesting how you changed the words. You took out the part where it says "lead me not into" and changed it to "keep me from" I don't know if I would be comfortable doing that.

No, I did not change any of the words in scripture whatsoever. I told you what I thought it meant, how I interpreted it. We all know we need to compare scripture with scripture and that phrases and word meanings that are used centuries ago can change and that scripture must harmonize. You asked a question, I answered it. If you don't like my answer or don't think it holds water, that's fine, but don't imply I am deliberately changing the text, or doing something so heinous as rewriting scripture, when I did no such thing.

[extravagantchristian]

But you said that you don't think it means what it says, you said you think it means something different. So you kinda did disregard the words "lead me not into" and gave the impression that you think it means "keep me from" instead. So your interpretation is kind of a change from the straight-forward meaning of what the words say. Sorry, I don't want to offend you, but that's what it looks like to me. Maybe I'm just crazy!

[extravagantchristian]

Why do I Keep bonking heads with you 2 mods all of the time? Am I that far off base here? If it's not this that we don't agree on, it's repentance, if it's not that it's something else. I just wonder why we can never agree on anything. I'm tired of coming to this Christian site and getting nothing but disagreement. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the one that's wrong about everything or if it's you two. I don't know anymore. Make that 3, I forgot about Mark.

[AndCanItBe]

I don't mean to frustrate you. My line of thinking is that there is plenty of plain scripture like James 1 to contradict the idea that God actively leads us into temptation. He allows it, but doesn't lead it, so when I read that verse, it must harmonize with scripture, therefore I start comparing it with other scripture, and there are other places where it is more like "keep me from temptation", so I interpret it that way because it harmonizes.

I really am sorry for frustrating you.

[extravagantchristian]

Thanks anditcanbe, I appreciate it.

One more thing, we know that God is going to send a strong delusion to cause the people to believe a lie, would that be considered leading them into temptation?

[Abiding in His Word]

Thanks anditcanbe, I appreciate it.

One more thing, we know that God is going to send a strong delusion to cause the people to believe a lie, would that be considered leading them into temptation?

No. Taking that verse in context....

.....and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, becausethey did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 2Th 2:10-12[/i]

It was they who did not receive the truth. It was they who did not love the truth and it was they who took pleasure in wickedness. God simply turned them over to that which they desired and/or chose.

..... For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural...Rom 1:25-26

Again, it was they who exchanged the truth for a lie and they who served the creature rather than the Creator. God simply turned them over to that which they have chosen.

...And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper....Rom 1:28

He gave them over to that which they had already chosen.

[keithareilly]

Abiding and AndCanItBe,

I have to agree with Extravagant here.

---
Mathew 18:5-9
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The verses are pretty clear that one can be held responsible for leading another into sin.

---

About the Heart ... Consider Pharoah of Moses's time.

Exodus 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 8:32
32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

Notice how Pharaoh hardening his own heart and God hardening Pharaoh's heart are used interchangeably. It is because they are the same thing, two different sides of the same coin.
---

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

An all knowing, all Powerful God, who could create the Universe anyway he wanted, created the Universe the way he chose to create it and is responsible for how He created it. Of course He is only answerable to himself.

As Christ's death was planned before the foundations of the World, it was part of the Plan for Christ to die. Even our own names were written in the book of life before the foundations of the world. Consequently, the fall of Man must also have been part of the Plan. The implication is that God created the world, the universe, and Man both knowing that we would sin and so that we would sin. The fact Christ's sacrifice would be necessary and planned for before the foundation of the world means God knew exactly what he was doing when he created everything as He did. It was all planned for before the world was established and the first man created. Being a part of God's plan means God created the universe, the world and man the way he did so, deliberately. He created Adam and Eve with ability to sin, he put Adam and Eve in a place where they could sin, and gave them a rule to break ensuring there was opportunity for trespass.

It should not surprise anyone that a God who would knowingly create a sinful creation would also provide for his creations redemption. As a creation of God, I don’t get to ask God why he created me with a sinful nature. If he did not want me to sin, then don’t create me with either the inclination or provide me the opportunity. The pot does not get to say to the Potter "Why did you create me this way?". The only answer I know is that He must want us to "Choose Good Over Evil" and that means we must be able to not choose good also. Thus he created us with both ability and opportunity to sin or not sin.



Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Hello Keith!

The verses are pretty clear that one can be held responsible for leading another into sin.

No disagreement there. The question at hand is whether or not God leads one into sin.

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

God created us and the Universe such that we are provided both the ability and opportunity to sin.
How is that different than leading us into temptation?

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

No disagreement there. The question at hand is whether or not God leads one into sin.

And I should add....whether or not God leads his children (believers) into sin.

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

God created us and the Universe such that we are provided both the ability and opportunity to sin.
How is that different than leading us into temptation?

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

OK then....my sin is God's fault. He's to blame.

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

Did Pharaoh refuse to let the people go because Pharaoh harden his own heart or because God Hardened Pharaoh's heart?

keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Did Pharaoh refuse to let the people go because Pharaoh harden his own heart or because God Hardened Pharaoh's heart?

It wasn't Pharoah's fault he wouldn't let God's people go. It was God's fault. He's the one who's to blame because He hardened Pharoah's heart. Pharoah is guilt free. Right? Is that what you're saying?

[keithareilly]

Abiding


Here are some of the verses about Pharaoh and his heart.

Exodus 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 8:32
32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

Pharoah refused to obey God's commandment given through Moses and Aaron because,
God Hardened Pharaoh's heart AND because Pharaoh hardenned his own heart.

Both reasons are true. If both are true, they can not be mutually exclusive statements.

Notice that God himself prevented Pharaoh from obeying God's own command to let His people go by hardening Pharaohs heart.

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Keith,

Please read the scripture I posted at 8:51 above. God simply gives them over to that which is already in their hearts. And we are talking in this thread specifically about believers; not unbelievers. Does God lead believers into temptation and sin?

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

I have read it, that is why I am responding.

Exodus 4:21
21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

It is clear from this verse that GOD PLANNED TO PREVENT PHARAOH FROM OBEYING his command.

This is consistant with
Rom 9:18 - Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

That is who God is.

Keith

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

OK, Pharaoh was not a believer (Christian/Jew at that time).

But we can establish through scripture that God has actively prevented an individual (pharaoh) from obeying commands He has given that individual. If God will actively prevent someone from obeying him, then it is reasonable to believe that God will also lead a person into a situation where their own lusts cause them to disobey God.

I am pointing out that God will do these things to people and I am backing it up with scripture.
It is who God is.

Does he treat those upon whom He has mercy the same as those whom He hardens?
Perhaps, he does when He thinks it necessary, Perhaps not.

Keith

[AndCanItBe]

---
Mathew 18:5-9
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The verses are pretty clear that one can be held responsible for leading another into sin.

I completely agree.

He created Adam and Eve with ability to sin, he put Adam and Eve in a place where they could sin, and gave them a rule to break ensuring there was opportunity for trespass.

If He were to orchestrate this, with the purpose of causing Adam and Eve to sin, rather than allowing Satan and Adam to exercise their own wills as a test of faith for Adam, would that not be leading another into sin?

As a creation of God, I don’t get to ask God why he created me with a sinful nature.

He didn't create Adam with a sinful nature. He created Adam with a free will and Adam with his free will chose not to trust and obey His God, he used his free will to sin and sold us all into slavery to sin. Our nature is corrupt, but it only became so after Adam's sin.

Romans 5

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

[extravagantchristian]

Thanks anditcanbe, I appreciate it.

One more thing, we know that God is going to send a strong delusion to cause the people to believe a lie, would that be considered leading them into temptation?

No. Taking that verse in context....

.....and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, becausethey did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 2Th 2:10-12[/i]

It was they who did not receive the truth. It was they who did not love the truth and it was they who took pleasure in wickedness. God simply turned them over to that which they desired and/or chose.

..... For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural...Rom 1:25-26

Again, it was they who exchanged the truth for a lie and they who served the creature rather than the Creator. God simply turned them over to that which they have chosen.

...And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper....Rom 1:28

He gave them over to that which they had already chosen.

I'm not disputing the fact that they will not love the truth and take pleasure in wickedness.

The question is, WHO sends the strong dilusion? God, or the people?

And, who HARDENED the Pharaoh's heart?

And, who PLACED man in the garden with the forbidden tree and serpent?

You know the answer. It's God.

So now is it that far of a stretch to say that sometimes God places people into situations where they will be tempted?
Did He not place Adam into a situation where he would be tempted?
I didn't say God was the tempter.

Come on can't we reason together about this using common sense?

[mark s]

I just wonder why we can never agree on anything. I'm tired of coming to this Christian site and getting nothing but disagreement.

Hi EC,

If I may be so bold as to disagree with you just one more time . . . there are things we agree on!

In general, things are seldom "always" and "never", at least with man. Not everyone here agrees with me, but still we have good Christian e-fellowship!

And as for the things you disagree about, file them away, as you continue to study the Scripture, if there is truth in them, God will reveal it. It works the same for the rest of us. All the things I've discussed with people here, even those things I disagree with, sometimes I'll read a verse, and I'll remember a thread, and start looking deeper. We're all still learning, and we can learn together, if we do so with patience, gentleness, and love - the sincere commitment to another's well-being.

I've noticed also that there is sometimes a tendency to gravitate towards the more controversial topics, or those topics which we are unsettled on, and this can magnify the areas of disagreement, though there may be many areas of agreement that don't get discussed.

I have no reason to question your faith in Jesus Christ, so we have the most important agreement there is!



Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Come on can't we reason together about this using common sense?

Far better to reason together using scripture.

The question is, WHO sends the strong dilusion? God, or the people?

And, who HARDENED the Pharaoh's heart?

And, who PLACED man in the garden with the forbidden tree and serpent?

I think I've shown scripturally that God does not lead people into temptation nor into sin. Your question about "lead us not into temptation" in the Lord's prayer does lend itself to implying that God does so.

It's clear that God turned them over to those things which already were present in their hearts.

(Romans 1:24) Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

(Romans 1:26) For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

(Romans 1:28) And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper......

Just as God did in Genesis, He does not always strive with those who lean toward sin continually and gives them over to their own lust and passions. He knows the heart as he did with Pharoah and those who would choose to believe a lie rather than the truth. He did not tempt Adam in the garden of Eden. He created him with a free will and a wide variety of choices for him. Scripture clearly states that Adam himself was guilty of disobeying God. God did not cause Adam to disobey.

If you want to continue to ignore those scriptures and believe that God "sets us up to fail" or that He creates a situation in which we will fail, I can only hope you will continue to study this topic and search for scripture that validates and supports this assumption.

For me, I am satisfied with scripture that clearly says the two things which cause sin and temptation are the heart/flesh of man and satan and that God does not override our choices.

[extravagantchristian]

Come on can't we reason together about this using common sense?

Far better to reason together using scripture.

The question is, WHO sends the strong dilusion? God, or the people?

And, who HARDENED the Pharaoh's heart?

And, who PLACED man in the garden with the forbidden tree and serpent?

I think I've shown scripturally that God does not lead people into temptation nor into sin. Your question about "lead us not into temptation" in the Lord's prayer does lend itself to implying that God does so.

It's clear that God turned them over to those things which already were present in their hearts.

(Romans 1:24) Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

(Romans 1:26) For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,

(Romans 1:28) And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper......

Just as God did in Genesis, He does not always strive with those who lean toward sin continually and gives them over to their own lust and passions. He knows the heart as he did with Pharoah and those who would choose to believe a lie rather than the truth. He did not tempt Adam in the garden of Eden. He created him with a free will and a wide variety of choices for him. Scripture clearly states that Adam himself was guilty of disobeying God. God did not cause Adam to disobey.

If you want to continue to ignore those scriptures and believe that God "sets us up to fail" or that He creates a situation in which we will fail, I can only hope you will continue to study this topic and search for scripture that validates and supports this assumption.

For me, I am satisfied with scripture that clearly says the two things which cause sin and temptation are the heart/flesh of man and satan and that God does not override our choices.

Abiding, I made it perfectly clear that God did not tempt Adam. And I'm not implying that God overrides our choice and free will.

My question was, WHO PLACED Adam in the garden? God of course, Adam didn't just evolve there.

So I think we can agree that God placed Adam in the garden right?

And was there temptation in the garden? Yes. Obviously.

So, did God place Adam in a garden with temptation in it? Yes.

So then would it then be accurate to say that God placed Adam into a situation of temptation?

I don't see why not, since we have already established that God placed Adam in the garden and that there was temptation there.

It seems like common sense to me.

[Abiding in His Word]

Abiding, I made it perfectly clear that God did not tempt Adam. And I'm not implying that God overrides our choice and free will.

My question was, WHO PLACED Adam in the garden? God of course, Adam didn't just evolve there.

Agreed.

So I think we can agree that God placed Adam in the garden right?

Agreed. Technically, He "formed" Adam in the garden. But OK.

And was there temptation in the garden? Yes. Obviously.

Since we are using common sense..... Scripture does not say temptation was in the garden, does it?

So, did God place Adam in a garden with temptation in it? Yes.

Please quote such a scripture.

So then would it then be accurate to say that God placed Adam into a situation of temptation?

Scripture?

I don't see why not, since we have already established that God placed Adam in the garden and that there was temptation there.

It seems like common sense to me.

Scripture?