Joel 2:28- a timing question

[Abiding in His Word]

Abiding,

My issue with dreams and visions are the fact that some people think they are receiving new revelation from God with their dreams and visions. Many are either contrary to scripture (which immediately disqualifies them) or so strange that it sounds more like imagination overload than a vision from God. I have been on several prophecy sites where people share their dreams and they are convinced that something specific will happen in the near future, the date passes and no one ever mentions the dream again. Shouldn't their be some sort of standard for dreams and visions - if they are truly prophecies from God, shouldn't they be held to the same standards that the OT prophets were held to? But with the claim of being moved by the Spirit, there are dreams and visions being shared all over the place with a claim they are of God and I just don't get it.

I agree 100%, nike, that the church is full of "pickles & ice cream before bed-type" dreams and visions. I don't believe we will be given new truth in dreams, visions, or prophecies. The dreams and visions I posted, as well as many others, we given to individuals for direction, warning, correction, healing or confirmation of events in their own personal lives. Nowhere do I see these two mentioned in scripture as being for the edification of the church.

If this gift of the Spirit is given for the edification of the church, shouldn't there be some sort of standard?

The gifts Paul mentions in Romans and Corinthians are given specifically for expression in assemblies. Dreams & visions, from my examination of them, are for personal purposes. When one is fulfilled, however, and a testimony is given in an assembly, it would, of course, edify the church. But that is not their primary purpose.

Just one example of a "personal" dream is that of Joseph. He had a dream that warned him to take Mary & Jesus to Egypt for safety because Herod was going to kill all the young boys. The purpose was personal to Joseph, but no doubt if he were to share that in an assembly, others would be edified.

The visions you mentioned had literal fulfillments.

They were fulfilled by the individuals to whom they were given immediately (nearly) upon receiving them.

Prophets were stoned for faulty prophecies.

That's was true in some cases, but not all.

Deu 13:5 "But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.

If I'm reading this right, the end result of the false prophet or false dreamer is rebellion against God and seduction from walking in His ways.

but....

Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This seems to be a false prophet who "thinks" He has heard from the Lord, but his intent is not to lead people away from Him, but rather (perhaps) to draw attention to himself. Don't be afraid of this type of prophet.

I think we are awfully lax on our standards of God-given gifts when we give platform to every strange dream someone has with no interpretation or literal fulfillment to verify the source.

I agree. But I don't think it hurts the body to learn to evaluate them and determine if they line up with scripture in light of the deceptions we see in the church. And again, it grieves me to see some throwing out the authentic, scriptural because of the counterfeit, unscriptural. What greater victory could satan have than to have a powerless church who denies that which the Holy Spirit of God has given.

[Birdwatcher]

Ok, I'll give it a try...

correct -- Persecution of saints - GT
correct -- God’s judgement upon the nations - DOTL
correct -- Israel in distress - GT & DOTL
skipped -- An army marching against Jerusalem - ? (Means I don't know)
1/2 credit -- Nations being gathered against the LORD - DOTL
skipped -- Israel entering into the new covenant as a nation - ? (Means I don't know...I've always had trouble understanding the convenants...I'm not afraid to admit it!)
correct -- Famine - GT
correct -- The winepress of God’s wrath - DOTL
correct -- The cosmic signs - GT
correct -- The LORD roars from Zion - DOTL
1/2 credit -- The Spirit is poured out upon Israel - towards end DOTL or after (I think this is where you say GT...)
correct -- The sacrifices at the temple are put to a stop - Just prior to GT

So how'd I do?

Let's see. You had 10 questions, worth 10 points each, with 2 bonus questions for a possible total of 120 points.

You skipped 2 questions (zero points), earned half credit for 2 questions (5 points each), and correctly answered the other 8 questions (10 points each) for a total of 90 points. Assuming a standard bell curve distribution, that gives you an A-. Go to the head of the class.

The reasons for the half credit answers:

The nations actually gather against the Lord (and against Jerusalem) before the cosmic signs -- and, therefore, before the DOTL begins. But they are still sitting there gathered (or attacking) as the DOTL starts, until they are crushed by the Lord.

The Spirit is poured out upon Israel (or a major portion of Israel) at more than one point. There's the start of the DOTL, when they see Him whom they have pierced and mourn over Him (as Zech. 12:10, Rev. 1:7, and the Olivet Discourse all mention). This includes a pouring out of the spirit of grace and supplication, which is certainly a work of the Holy Spirit. We also know that for all of Israel to be saved by the end of the Seventieth Week, the Spirit is involved in convicting and wooing them. Then there's the "after this" pouring out that's mentioned in our passage from Joel. It seems like the one in Joel has to happen after the golden age begins, after the Messiah is reigning, after the 70th Week is over and the 1,000 years has begun. So it looks like there are 3 70th Week or later outpourings of the Spirit, at a minimum.

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[revelation12eleven]

Ok Professor, I stuck my neck out there for all the blogging world to see...are you going to let me know which two you had trouble with? (Are you sure you are not a professor at a Bible college somewhere? I enjoyed your because comments.)

An A- Makes me want to go back to college and finish out and get my degree. (Having too much fun with these bouncy things...)

Mo, comparing Zech. 12:10 with Matt. 24:30 - I was wondering if perhaps the mourning recorded in Zechariah by the house of David occurs at a later time than the mourning that is mentioned to occur by all the tribes of the earth at Christ's initial presence. Is it the outpouring of the Spirit at the end of the Week, when all Israel is saved? At that time they recognize Jesus as their Messiah. They are mourning for their sin of participating in putting Him to death. God removes the blinders and they see Jesus for who He is and see themselves for the sinners that they are. Or perhaps it has a dual fulfillment...the 144 mourn for Jesus in this way at His initial presence, but for the "second fruits" their mourning for Jesus won't be till their salvation at the end of the Week? (I loved your movie script by the way...) Of course if we look at the surrounding verses in Zechariah 12 it would give us the context as to when this mourning takes place. Would you say this is at the end of the Week? It is interesting in light of the current discussion regarding visions and prophecies that Zechariah 13 mentions false prophesying...

Daniel and I had a nice nap together this afternoon by the way...I had him all snuggled up under my chin...I want twenty more just like him!

[Birdwatcher]

I am always astonished when I hear believers debating the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the prophecied dreams, visions, and prophecies. When Peter quoted Joel in Acts, he would know that dreams and visions were were a fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. He had a vision himself. Cornelius had a vision. Peter saw an angel who opened the door of prison for him. Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia asking for help. Theophilus records that the men of Galilee saw Jesus taken up to heaven and two angels spoke with them.

Abiding,

Except for the Lord Yeshua's ascention, these were all post-Pentecost events. So Peter would not have known by experience that the Church would be blessed by the occasional dreams and visions over the next few years (or centuries or millennia) when he delivered this message.

Dreams, visions, prophecies, healing, and miracles are abounding in scripture. Are these miraculous occurances different than the miracle of being born again?

Forgive my confusion on this issue, but I truly don't understand what support some find for believing these supernatural occurances have ceased or are yet future.

Certainly, miracles fill the pages of the Bible. But even the most godly men and women saw very few within their lifetimes. They were/are spread out. We love it when the Lord miraculously heals a dear friend, but (in our present day and age) we see other friends who are not healed in spite of our prayers.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting Joel 2:28-29. What I see there sounds like everyone will have dreams and visions (and probably other manifestations of the Spirit) frequently -- not just rarely as in the book of Acts or our own day.

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[Abiding in His Word]

Abiding,

Except for the Lord Yeshua's ascention, these were all post-Pentecost events. So Peter would not have known by experience that the Church would be blessed by the occasional dreams and visions over the next few years (or centuries or millennia) when he delivered this message.

He knew and proclaimed the obvious fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. I doubt he had reason to speculate how long the outpouring would last as no hint of an eventual cessation was mentioned in that prophecy.

Certainly, miracles fill the pages of the Bible. But even the most godly men and women saw very few within their lifetimes. They were/are spread out.

How many per person would be necessary to support and validate the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in these last days?

We love it when the Lord miraculously heals a dear friend, but (in our present day and age) we see other friends who are not healed in spite of our prayers.

Of course. Many throughout the Bible weren't healed as well. But that doesn't negate the gift of healing. The Holy Spirit distributes as He wills. On the same note, just because a believer hasn't experienced any one of the gifts, doesn't negate the fact that others have and that the gifts are indeed functioning among God's people today.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting Joel 2:28-29. What I see there sounds like everyone will have dreams and visions (and probably other manifestations of the Spirit) frequently -- not just rarely as in the book of Acts or our own day.

I see nothing in Joel 2:28-29 that references the number of occasions for dreams, visions, or prophecies. I think the focus is that, as opposed to just a select few, the Holy Spirit will be poured out on the "common" people without respect to status, ethnicity, or gender. I'm of the opinion that these manifestations are not as "rare" as some seem to believe simply because they are of more of a personal nature to the believer who may not reveal them publicly.

[Birdwatcher]

An A- Makes me want to go back to college and finish out and get my degree.

Go for it, Overcomer!

Mo, comparing Zech. 12:10 with Matt. 24:30 - I was wondering if perhaps the mourning recorded in Zechariah by the house of David occurs at a later time than the mourning that is mentioned to occur by all the tribes of the earth at Christ's initial presence. Is it the outpouring of the Spirit at the end of the Week, when all Israel is saved? At that time they recognize Jesus as their Messiah. They are mourning for their sin of participating in putting Him to death. God removes the blinders and they see Jesus for who He is and see themselves for the sinners that they are.

That's the typical view, probably. I see the start of the DOTL as the timing for Zech. 12:10. For one thing, "the tribes of the earth" is best translated "the tribes of the Land," meaning Israel (in my view). Daniel Stern translates it that way in the Complete Jewish Bible:

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory" (Matthew 24:30). Bolding his, noting these quotations are from Zechariah 12:10-14 and Daniel 7:13-14.

A similar thing happens in Revelation 1:7, also from the Complete Jewish Bible:

Look! He is coming with the clouds!
Every eye will see him,
including those who pierced him;
and all the tribes of the Land will mourn him.
Yes! Amen!

The quotation references for the bolded phrases are Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 12:10-14, respectively.

Or perhaps it has a dual fulfillment...the 144 mourn for Jesus in this way at His initial presence, but for the "second fruits" their mourning for Jesus won't be till their salvation at the end of the Week? (I loved your movie script by the way...) Of course if we look at the surrounding verses in Zechariah 12 it would give us the context as to when this mourning takes place. Would you say this is at the end of the Week?

No, I'd say it's after the Midpoint, the GT, and the Rapture. It's when the Trumpets begin, when the DOTL starts.

I love my movie idea, too. Maybe it can go in a novel or short story someday -- if the End of the Age is not upon us.

It is interesting in light of the current discussion regarding visions and prophecies that Zechariah 13 mentions false prophesying...

It sounds like the Epicenter (Jerusalem and environs) will be the site for some serious false prophecy.

Daniel and I had a nice nap together this afternoon by the way...I had him all snuggled up under my chin...I want twenty more just like him!

As long as your children and their spouses agree, who could say you shouldn't have?

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[Birdwatcher]

My issue with dreams and visions are the fact that some people think they are receiving new revelation from God with their dreams and visions. Many are either contrary to scripture (which immediately disqualifies them) or so strange that it sounds more like imagination overload than a vision from God.

I agree 100%, nike, that the church is full of "pickles & ice cream before bed-type" dreams and visions. I don't believe we will be given new truth in dreams, visions, or prophecies.

And I agree as well.

If this gift of the Spirit is given for the edification of the church, shouldn't there be some sort of standard?

There are standards. The modern Church is just lax in applying them.

You're familiar with 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, of course, where the Lord's return at the Day of the Lord is described. Further on in chapter 5, Paul and his companions say, "Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances" (vv. 19-20). They/we are not to avoid receiving words from the Lord.

Then, in the very next verse, in the same breath, there is this command: "But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil" (vv. 21-22). We are to weigh what our brothers and sisters say, to test it, to make sure it holds up under close scrutiny.

I think we are awfully lax on our standards of God-given gifts when we give platform to every strange dream someone has with no interpretation or literal fulfillment to verify the source.

I agree. But I don't think it hurts the body to learn to evaluate them and determine if they line up with scripture in light of the deceptions we see in the church. And again, it grieves me to see some throwing out the authentic, scriptural because of the counterfeit, unscriptural. What greater victory could satan have than to have a powerless church who denies that which the Holy Spirit of God has given.

Quite right. These issues are of particular interest to me because the elders at my congregation have just written, after much study, a position paper on modern prophecy. We're also studying this in my adult Sunday school class. The teacher has developed a "matrix" for testing prophecies. I'm planning to modify it slightly then post it on my Website as a resource for others.

We all need to be discerning, more and more as the time of deception draws near.

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[The Orange Mailman]

Ok Professor, I stuck my neck out there for all the blogging world to see...are you going to let me know which two you had trouble with? (Are you sure you are not a professor at a Bible college somewhere?

Overcomer, I'm just a mailman. I'm an amateur in the area of eschatology in the truest sense of the word. The word amateur comes from the root amare which means to love. If you look up the definition of amateur it means a person who engages in a study (or activity) for pleasure rather than for financial benefit. I truly love eschatology. That's why I study. In fact, you know those T-Shirts and bumper stickers that say "I'd rather be fishing" or "I'd rather be golfing". I think I'll get one that says "I'd rather be studying the Bible."

But on to the issue which is giving me trouble. The army approaching Jerusalem and the nations gathering against the LORD must be somehow related, but in my mind they are two separate issues. The army approaching Jerusalem seems to be during the great tribulation to get Israel's attention. But the nations gathering together against the LORD do so during the Day of the LORD, see Revelation 16:12-16. The nations gather together against the Messiah, not against Israel which is an important distinction to make, Psalm 2, Revelation 19:19. So Jesus is already back when the nations are supernaturally summoned against Him, Joel 3:9-16. It is a clear act of aggression against Him and He responds by slaughtering them, Psalm 21, focus on verse 11. BTW, I would have given you full credit on that one since I cannot see where the supernatural summoning of the nations begins before Jesus returns to earth.

But since the nation is marching against Jerusalem, and then the LORD rises up out of His place to deal with this army, it seems that this same army would come against the LORD at Armageddon. The army that marches in Joel 2 seems to be the same army in Zechariah 14 which actually arrives in Jerusalem. Half the city will be taken and the Day of the LORD is officially here. And there all nations are gathered together against Jerusalem, but it is the Day of the LORD and the LORD is present in Jerusalem. He GOES FORTH to the Mount of Olives, not descends to the Mount of Olives as most people misread the verse. At His side are His redeemed. The army thinks they have Jesus and followers right where they want Him until they get within striking distance. Jesus simply splits the mountain in two leaving the army on the opposite side from Him and His redeemed.

So is the army which marches against Jerusalem in Joel 2 the same army that arrives in Jerusalem in Zechariah 14? Perhaps not since in Zechariah 14 it involves all nations, but who is to say that in Joel 2 it doesn't involve all nations. And if Coop is right, that Jerusalam is Babylon, then wouldn't we have Jerusalem burned at some point in time during the great tribulation?

But to keep this on track, the advancing army in Joel 2 is separated from the gathering of all nation in Joel 3 by a certain passage which includes the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Is it a poetic reexplanation? Is Joel 3 redescribing the events of Joel 2? I doubt it. It seems that they are separated by the pouring out of the Holy Spirit for a reason. In Joel 2, Israel is helpless in Jerusalem and calls on God to save them. In Joel 3, the LORD is present in Jerusalem and roars as the nations approach. It is actually the LORD summoning (via deceiving spirits) against Himself.

So there you have it. I'm struggling with how these armies all fit together. I think I'm on the right track sometimes, but then other times there seems to be some odd reference in a passage that throws me off.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[The Orange Mailman]

simultaneously realizing that Jesus really is the Messiah. Just as they have His name emblazoned on their foreheads. Wouldn't that be something to explain to your Orthodox or Hassidic parents back home, why you now have "Yeshua" on your face?

Mo, I'm awful glad to have you posting on this thread.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Birdwatcher]

Many throughout the Bible weren't healed as well. But that doesn't negate the gift of healing. The Holy Spirit distributes as He wills. On the same note, just because a believer hasn't experienced any one of the gifts, doesn't negate the fact that others have and that the gifts are indeed functioning among God's people today.

Abiding,

No, it doesn't. I didn't mean to imply that it did.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting Joel 2:28-29. What I see there sounds like everyone will have dreams and visions (and probably other manifestations of the Spirit) frequently -- not just rarely as in the book of Acts or our own day.

I see nothing in Joel 2:28-29 that references the number of occasions for dreams, visions, or prophecies. I think the focus is that, as opposed to just a select few, the Holy Spirit will be poured out on the "common" people without respect to status, ethnicity, or gender. I'm of the opinion that these manifestations are not as "rare" as some seem to believe simply because they are of more of a personal nature to the believer who may not reveal them publicly.

Okay. So you're saying that Joel 2:28-29 has already been fulfilled (or is being fulfilled from AD 30 or so until now). Right?

Joel 2:28-29 reads: "It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days."

So what do you make of the context for those verses? Joel 2 shows the Jews of Jerusalem under attack during (or just prior to) the DOTL. They repent with fasting and weeping. The Lord then drives off the attacking Northern Army. He promises to restore the land to productivity. His people will never again be put to shame. AFTER this, He will pour out His Spirit on all flesh -- either all of the Jewish people or all humanity. He will also show wonders in the sky and on the earth -- blood, fire, and columns of smoke.

Are you saying that only the verses about the Spirit being poured out have been fulfilled so far? Or are you interpreting the rest of Joel 2 (neglecting vv. 31 and 32, which belong with chapter 3) as either a fulfilled or near/far prophecy?

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[revelation12eleven]

I think I'll get one that says "I'd rather be studying the Bible."

I hear you Orange! The wonderful thing about coming to a true understanding about the return of Christ and how it is associated with the day of the Lord is that so much more of scripture makes sense to me now. It's like Nike said about her old pastor, you begin to see it everywhere in scripture...BUT, there is still a lot left that keeps me scratching my head. I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion we are having and it is getting me digging into the Word. I really enjoy reading your thought processes...

BTW, I would have given you full credit on that one since I cannot see where the supernatural summoning of the nations begins before Jesus returns to earth.

Mo, I'm awful glad to have you posting on this thread.

revelation12eleven wrote: An A- Makes me want to go back to college and finish out and get my degree. Go for it, Overcomer!

I thought about this for about two seconds Mo and decided that I'd rather hold grand babies instead...and since I only have two children I doubt I will end up with twenty...but I'll enjoy every single one the Lord gives me.

[Birdwatcher]

I think I'll get one that says "I'd rather be studying the Bible."

I hear you Orange! The wonderful thing about coming to a true understanding about the return of Christ and how it is associated with the day of the Lord is that so much more of scripture makes sense to me now. It's like Nike said about her old pastor, you begin to see it everywhere in scripture...

Preach it, sister!

BUT, there is still a lot left that keeps me scratching my head. I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion we are having and it is getting me digging into the Word.

You, too, huh?

BTW, I would have given you full credit on that one since I cannot see where the supernatural summoning of the nations begins before Jesus returns to earth.

Well, Orange, that's where we both agree and disagree. The drawing of the armies to the Valley of Decision in Joel 2, reprised from a different angle in Joel 3, and called the Great Winepress in Revelation 14, does involve the presence of the Lord Jesus here on earth, at Jerusalem. You know my view well, but for the sake of the others in this thread, I will eloraborate a tiny bit. (For my full view, Overcomer, send me your address in a PM and ask for a copy of my short book on the Winepress.)

A friend in my PreWrath study group suggested that, basically, all 3 chapters of Joel cover the same material, just from a different angle each time. In the first chapter, the attackers are locusts. In the second, they are largely like locusts and yet largely like a human army, too. They're sort of morphing. In the third, they are entirely human and we have more details of timing and location. At first, I rejected this view. But the more I ponder it, the more I see the reasonableness of it.

What shows that the destruction of the Northern Army in Joel 2 and of the Gentile armies that have gathered in Jehoshaphat in Joel 3 (which are the same thing from different angles) happens at the start of the DOTL rather than at the end of the 70th Week or the end of the 30 Days?

1. The DOTL is overhanging, about to start. Joel 2:1, 2:11, 2:31, 3:14.
2. The 6th Seal signs occur. Joel 2:10, 2:31, 3:15.
3. It is unreasonable to assume that Jerusalem is surrounded by an attacking force just before the DOTL starts and then that force just remains in place -- neither attacking nor being repelled -- until the end of the DOTL. This doesn't hold water.
4. The Jews of Jerusalem repent. Joel 2:15-17.
5. Their repentance brings about the return of the Lord, just as the Lord Jesus said. "You will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD.'" Joel 3:16.
6. The Jews of Jerusalem are rescued from physical destruction. Joel 2:20, 3:16.
7. They also have their eyes opened to who the Messiah is, and they acknowledge Him as such.

Mo, I'm awful glad to have you posting on this thread

Thank you!

revelation12eleven wrote: Makes me want to go back to college and finish out and get my degree.
Go for it, Overcomer!
I thought about this for about two seconds Mo and decided that I'd rather hold grand babies instead...and since I only have two children I doubt I will end up with twenty...but I'll enjoy every single one the Lord gives me.

May your quiver and your arms be full!

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[Abiding in His Word]

Okay. So you're saying that Joel 2:28-29 has already been fulfilled (or is being fulfilled from AD 30 or so until now). Right?

Yes. We can know that because Peter acknowledged it in Acts 2. But it is merely the beginning of the end of the age. In other words, the end events will unfold as a crescendo as it were but this is indeed a partial fulfillment.

Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 'And it shall be in the last days,' god says, 'that I will pour forth of my spirit on all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Act 2:18 even on my bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of my spirit and they shall prophesy.

This is seen by Peter as the beginning of the "last days" as prophesied by Joel and a fulfillment of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
-----------------------------------------
Act 2:19 'And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
Act 2:20 'The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the lord shall come.

Here in verses 19-20 Peter references Joel's prophetic words, but evidently part of the "crescendo" because he mentioned the prophecy again here and sees it as yet future:

2Peter 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
-----------------------------------------

Act 2:21 'And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the lord will be saved.'

Again, Peter references Joel's prophetic words and sees them as currently being fulfilled:

Joe 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered;
------------------------------------------

So what do you make of the context for those verses? Joel 2 shows the Jews of Jerusalem under attack during (or just prior to) the DOTL. They repent with fasting and weeping. The Lord then drives off the attacking Northern Army. He promises to restore the land to productivity. His people will never again be put to shame. AFTER this, He will pour out His Spirit on all flesh -- either all of the Jewish people or all humanity. He will also show wonders in the sky and on the earth -- blood, fire, and columns of smoke.

Prophets prophesied words that often had near/far meanings. They also include messianic prophecies which relate a very different age than the current one.

I don't see the words "after this" as necessarily indicating a sequence of events, but rather of a following/future "season." These four verses speak to a future age/season that will "come about":

Joe 2:28 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.
Joe 2:29 "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
Joe 2:30 "I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
Joe 2:31 "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood Before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
Joe 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Are you saying that only the verses about the Spirit being poured out have been fulfilled so far? Or are you interpreting the rest of Joel 2 (neglecting vv. 31 and 32, which belong with chapter 3) as either a fulfilled or near/far prophecy?

I think verses 31 and 32 are right where they should be...included in a parenthetical (of sorts) contrast of the current age and the future dispensation of grace which will include the gentiles (all mankind). Chapter 3 continues with references to the DOTL.

[The Orange Mailman]

Well, Orange, that's where we both agree and disagree.

Mo, that's the entire reason why I asked you to consider posting on this thread. I'm so glad you decided to because I think I was actually derailing the conversation away from Nike's original intent for the thread. You have brought it back to the subject of the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. But of course we have to have this little discussion as well.

My point is quite simple. The gathering of the nations occurs at the sixth bowl in Revelation. Revelation 19:19 further explains that they are gathering against the LORD Jesus who is already back. So the book of Revelation explains a gathering of the nations that occurs during the Day of the LORD. If you want to include the sixth trumpet as the armies gathering, that's still under the Day of the LORD.

So wouldn't Revelation be explaining these OT prophecies like Joel 3:2 in even more detail?

3. It is unreasonable to assume that Jerusalem is surrounded by an attacking force just before the DOTL starts and then that force just remains in place -- neither attacking nor being repelled -- until the end of the DOTL. This doesn't hold water.

I would agree. Something has to happen. It could be that the winepress occurs only against the northern army at the first trumpet preliminarily, then more fully at Armageddon. Another view could involve Ezekiel 39 predicting that most of the army will be turned around, but that one sixth will be led on to Armageddon (the great supper). But half the city of Jerusalem will be taken and that during the day of the LORD, Zech. 14:1-3 and the nations are being gathered against Jerusalem by the LORD here as well. But you're the expert on the winepress, not me. But I suppose I agree that Joel 2:18-20 is "the very first event of the Day of God's Wrath". God deals with this army after the repentance of Israel. Later we have the description of the cosmic signs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Day of the LORD events haven't been described yet.

4. The Jews of Jerusalem repent. Joel 2:15-17.
5. Their repentance brings about the return of the Lord, just as the Lord Jesus said. "You will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD.'" Joel 3:16.

Have I convinced you? Wow! One convert after all these years. It seems quite obvious to me now in reading Acts 3:19-21 that the repentance of Israel provokes the return of Christ, but so many see things another way.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[The Orange Mailman]

Yes. We can know that because Peter acknowledged it in Acts 2. But it is merely the beginning of the end of the age. In other words, the end events will unfold as a crescendo as it were but this is indeed a partial fulfillment.

Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'that I will pour forth of my spirit on all mankind; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Act 2:18 even on my bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of my spirit and they shall prophesy.

This is seen by Peter as the beginning of the "last days" as prophesied by Joel and a fulfillment of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Abiding, are you beginning to sound like me or am I beginning to sound like you?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[revelation12eleven]

Orange, I actually thought I was the one that originally had derailed the topic just a tad... ...but the discussion has been very enjoyable.

Mo, I have some questions for you...you mentioned 1 Th. 5:19 and how Paul instructed the Thessalonians not to despise prophetic utterances. What is your understanding of what Paul meant by a prophetic utterance? Is it referring to the same thing when Paul told the Corinthians that the one who prophesies edifies the church? My position is that until the completion of scripture, prophetic utterances could be new revelation but after the completion of scripture prophesying would be proclaiming what was already revealed. The false prophesying mentioned in Zechariah 13, this would not be new revelation either, but teaching and proclaiming that does not line up with the Word. For us today, when Paul says to "test all things" after he says not to despise prophetic utterances, I would take this to mean we need to carefully examine what is being taught and preached, does it line up with the closed canon of scripture? Prophecy is listed as a spiritual gift (1 Cor. 12:10) so I believe it is a gift that exists today, but the one who exercises this gift today is simply speaking forth or proclaiming what is already in the written Word. Paul lists the regulations for the use of spiritual gifts in the church in 1 Cor. 12 and if taken at face value, he seems to restrict the use of the speaking gifts, tongues, interpretations, and prophesying, only to men...but then in Joel 2:28 it says your sons and daughters will prophecy...I'm scratching my head again...your thoughts? Also, check your PMs.

[revelation12eleven]

Ok, so a thought just struck me...if prophesying is restricted to men only in the church but "after this", daughters will prophecy...does this make the "after this" definitely after the church is raptured???!

[revelation12eleven]

But then Joel's prophecy is mentioned by Peter in Acts 2...scratching head continues...

[The Orange Mailman]

Men only?

Acts 21:9

[revelation12eleven]

So Orange, what do you take 1 Cor. 14:34 to mean? I have more questions most of the time than I do answers...Give me more of what you understand! (Now, I'm not against women teaching women of course...)

[Loop]

I'm not on here much any more but, prophesying was never restricted to just men...

Miriam the PROPHETESS, the sister of Aaron
Deborah, a PROPHETESS, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
Huldah the PROPHETESS, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college;) and they communed with her.
PROPHETESS Noadiah
And there was one Anna, a PROPHETESS, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

[Abiding in His Word]

I'm not on here much any more but, prophesying was never restricted to just men...

Correct. Neither are any other gifts. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not male and female gifts any more than they are Greek or Jewish, young or old, slave or free.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hey Overcomer-

I've always struggled with this passage and with I Timothy 2:12 as well. I believe from an overall point of view that the scriptures elevate women but I know some use these scriptures to denigrate them. Being that I seem to be the only male posting amidst a group of Christian ladies, I should make my comments tactful.

The subject of I Corinthians 14 is the structure of the assembling together of the saints for the purpose of edification. This is done through various means, the most significant of which seems to be prophesying. Remember, there were no established church traditions at this time. So any Gentile church could formulate their assemblies however they deemed appropriate.

In 14:26-33, a general outline for speaking for the purpose of edification and prophesying is given. There should be no confusion, but everything to be done decently and in order. Someone just sitting there is not allowed to jump up and say whatever they think the Holy Spirit is leading them to say. Someone may not claim that the Holy Spirit comes upon them and they cannot help it. Since the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, no one person will lose control of themselves because of the Holy Spirit.

At the very most, only three people should be given a position of speaking at a given assembly and that should be done in turn. The text seems to favor even less than three, perhaps two or even one person speaking to the assembly. So Paul is dealing with who is in charge of the assemblies. If someone has received a prophecy from the LORD, they are allowed to share it, but in turn. They may make it known that they have a prophecy, then they will be allowed to share if they stand and wait their turn.

However, it is assumed here that we are referring to the spiritual leaders in the church, since it mentions "prophets". Now we get to the tough portion. Can a woman stand up and make known a prophecy which has been revealed to her? The text could be taken in one of two ways. #1- Women should never speak in church, not even to say "hi". #2- Women cannot give prophetic utterances in church, but as far as normal speech, there is no restriction in the text. You see that #2 makes the most sense. To suggest that women cannot say "hi" is ridiculous.

Now let's take it a step further. Since Paul is addressing the spiritual authority with which the assemblies are structured, the next set of two options can be weighed. We can take the restriction on women two ways. #1- Women are never allowed to speak to the assembly of the saints. #2- Women are always under the authority of the male leadership of the church and must be recognized by the male leadership of the church before being allowed to give testimony to the assembly of the saints. Now here is where I say that #1 is also ridiculous. I know some people who feel very strongly that women should never testify in church. But I feel that the text is giving order and direction to the church assemblies. It is not a hard and fast rule that can never be broken. It's a principle upon which the order of service is established.

So here are some practical tips that I feel we can take away from this passage which do not take the passage too far. Women are not allowed to get up on their own authority to speak. In the assembly, certain people can take the initiative and get up to speak on behalf of the LORD. I believe other passages explain that these are the bishop/overseers of the church. Women must be recognized by the spiritual leaders of the church if they are to speak. If they have a husband, they should talk to their husband first. It is shameful for women to be taking the authority of leadership upon themselves. I Timothy 2 has the same context with the spiritual leadership of the church explained immediately after this in chapter 3.

The final section of I Corinthians 14 in verses 36-40 states that anyone who is truly spiritual (and receiving spiritual revelation) will submit to these principles. So if a woman receives true revelation from the LORD, she will also understand through the Holy Spirit that she is to be in subjection to her own husband, and in subjection to the established parameters through which she may be allowed to speak to the assembly. Not that she will never be allowed to speak, but that she must follow the order.

So, keeping it relevant for Nike, sons and daughters did prophesy from the outpouring at Pentecost. Sons and daughters continue to prophesy today throughout the current assemblies. But even though we've got a taste, there is going to be an even more significant fulfillment of this at the sealing of the 144,000. Sons and daughters will prophesy in the name of Jesus heralding the imminent return of Messiah and the establishement of the Messianic Kingdom.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[revelation12eleven]

Yes, there were female prophetess's, to deny that would be to deny scripture. Are their female prophetess's today? Will there be in the future? How do you know if you are one? I teach women at my church, am I a prophetess? Do I prophesy when I teach? These are just honest inquiries on my part, including what Paul meant when he said the women are to remain silent in the churches...

[Abiding in His Word]

Yes, there were/are/will be female prophetess', to deny that would be to deny scripture...but what does 1 Cor. 14:34 mean, anyone?

Revelation12eleven, there are numerous threads on this topic and I will do a search and post them here for you. We know 2 things for a fact:

1) no one can be silent and prophecy at the same time so we must look at this as a special admonishment for a particular circumstance

and

2) there is no law in the whole of scripture that says women can't speak in an assembly so Paul may have been referencing the Oral Law rather than the Mosaic Law. The Oral Law expounded on the Mosaic Law and was that which the Pharisees used to "weigh men down with heavey burdens."

[revelation12eleven]

Orange, I think we were posting at the same time. I'm going to go back and digest what you just said. Thanks for your patience with me!

Abiding, as you can see I changed my post. Thanks too for your patience! Just trying to learn...

[Abiding in His Word]

Yes, there were female prophetess's, to deny that would be to deny scripture. Are their female prophetess's today? Will there be in the future? How do you know if you are one? I teach women at my church, am I a prophetess? Do I prophesy when I teach? These are just honest inquiries on my part, including what Paul meant when he said the women are to remain silent in the churches...

In order to keep the topic from detouring from Joel 2:28, I will pm you with some links for your consideration that address the questions you listed.

[Birdwatcher]

The gathering of the nations occurs at the sixth bowl in Revelation. Revelation 19:19 further explains that they are gathering against the LORD Jesus who is already back. So the book of Revelation explains a gathering of the nations that occurs during the Day of the LORD. If you want to include the sixth trumpet as the armies gathering, that's still under the Day of the LORD.

A gathering of the nations does, yes. But it's a different gathering. The Jehoshaphat Campaign AKA the Great Winepress happens at the start of the Day of the LORD, it happens at Jerusalem, and it is led by Gog (not the AC).

The gathering of the armies for Armageddon happens at the 6th Bowl, in the Valley of Megiddo, led by the AC. These are two entirely different conflicts.

Yes, Gog is involved in both. Yes, Rev. 19 covers the same ground as Ezek. 39. But Ezekiel 38 concerns itself with two earlier conflicts (the second of them being the Great Winepress).

So wouldn't Revelation be explaining these OT prophecies like Joel 3:2 in even more detail?

It could be if these were the same event, but they're not, so it can't be.

3. It is unreasonable to assume that Jerusalem is surrounded by an attacking force just before the DOTL starts and then that force just remains in place -- neither attacking nor being repelled -- until the end of the DOTL. This doesn't hold water.

I would agree. Something has to happen. It could be that the winepress occurs only against the northern army at the first trumpet preliminarily, then more fully at Armageddon.

The Winepress has to have happened before the Lord comes from Edom and before He leads His angelic army to Armageddon. Because in both cases, His robes are already stained with blood from the Winepress that He trod alone, without the help of the US and the other nations that should have defended Israel.

Another view could involve Ezekiel 39 predicting that most of the army will be turned around, but that one sixth will be led on to Armageddon (the great supper). But half the city of Jerusalem will be taken and that during the day of the LORD, Zech. 14:1-3 and the nations are being gathered against Jerusalem by the LORD here as well.

That one-sixth thing just doesn't work for me. No offense.

Yes, half of Jerusalem will be driven into exile. There will be much suffering. This does, apparently, happen during the Time of Jacob's Trouble and during the Day of the LORD, which overlap (but are not identical periods of time).

However, I don't buy the timing for Zech. 14:2 that you're proposing. Let me tell you, Zech. 14 is hard to understand and place. I'm at peace with my current interpretation, but this was not an easy text to wrestle with.

Actually, a few years back, I ended up turning to "The Sign" for help in understanding Zechariah 12-14. They are difficult to interpret and place. And I've found "The Sign" to be a much more reliable guide to End Times conflicts than anything else on my bookshelves. It gave me the answers, which I then fleshed out further as I saw the related passages about Jehoshaphat/Winepress.

Here's the gist of my view:
Zech. 14:1 -- Jerusalem will receive back the plunder that was stolen from her. This naturally raises the question of when and by whom the plunder was taken, as we have not read of that up till now in Zechariah. The next verse answers the question.

Zech. 14:2 -- When in the past (before the repentance of Jerusalem and the Great Winepress) was Jerusalem's plunder siezed? It was when Gog made his first attack, Ezek. 38:1-15. I think this occurs at the Midpoint, but am not yet positive of that view. It could happen earlier. Gog's first (and only successful) attack could happen before the Midpoint of the Week. So Zech. 14:2 functions as a "flashback" to tell us which attack against Jerusalem the Lord is about to "repay" the nations for. It is not the more recent Winepress attack, which He successfully repulsed. Rather, it is the earlier (pre-DOTL) attack which He did not repulse. The attack where the houses were ransacked for plunder and the women were raped. An exceedingly sad and painful time. Part of what drove Jerusalem to her knees in repentance.

Zech. 14:3-7 -- Then we jump back to "real time," if you will. The narrative continues with the description of Armageddon and events close to it in time -- the splitting of the Mount of Olives, the flight to Azel.

But you're the expert on the winepress, not me.

Got that right! (What, Lord? You wanted me to be humble again today, too??? Wasn't I humble enough yesterday for a whole week?)

But I suppose I agree that Joel 2:18-20 is "the very first event of the Day of God's Wrath". God deals with this army after the repentance of Israel. Later we have the description of the cosmic signs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Day of the LORD events haven't been described yet.

Excellent. We agree.

4. The Jews of Jerusalem repent. Joel 2:15-17.
5. Their repentance brings about the return of the Lord, just as the Lord Jesus said. "You will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD.'" Joel 3:16.

Have I convinced you? Wow! One convert after all these years. It seems quite obvious to me now in reading Acts 3:19-21 that the repentance of Israel provokes the return of Christ, but so many see things another way.

Yes. It is obvious. It's what the Word says. We just have to take our "blinders" off to see what's there. Thank you for helping me observe the text more clearly.

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[Birdwatcher]

Mo, I have some questions for you...you mentioned 1 Th. 5:19 and how Paul instructed the Thessalonians not to despise prophetic utterances. What is your understanding of what Paul meant by a prophetic utterance? Is it referring to the same thing when Paul told the Corinthians that the one who prophesies edifies the church? My position is that until the completion of scripture, prophetic utterances could be new revelation but after the completion of scripture prophesying would be proclaiming what was already revealed.

So you're espousing cessationism, the view that when the canon of Scripture was complete, that was the end of the "sign" gifts, so we no longer see them in our day and age.

Frankly, the scriptural case for cessationism is weak. I don't experience or observe a lot of miracles, but I do see a lot of answers to prayer, and I do "hear" from the Lord. And if we can't show from the Word that the gifts have ceased, then we must assume they are still in operation (or available to the Body) whether we observe them or not.

For us today, when Paul says to "test all things" after he says not to despise prophetic utterances, I would take this to mean we need to carefully examine what is being taught and preached, does it line up with the closed canon of scripture? Prophecy is listed as a spiritual gift (1 Cor. 12:10) so I believe it is a gift that exists today, but the one who exercises this gift today is simply speaking forth or proclaiming what is already in the written Word.

That's a common view, and the discussion between the two camps can get pretty heated.

For the Kingdom,

Mo

[revelation12eleven]

Mo said, So you're espousing cessationism, the view that when the canon of Scripture was complete, that was the end of the "sign" gifts, so we no longer see them in our day and age.

I am a cessationist only when it comes to tongues. Scripture says tongues will cease. There is nothing else on that list other than tongues. The debate will rage on as to when this cessation occurs.

Mo said, Frankly, the scriptural case for cessationism is weak.

Not for tongues...

I am not a cessationist however when it comes to prophesying. I do understand it to mean, at the present time, proclaiming the truth of God's word. I do think the office of apostle and prophet no longer exists for the church. They were foundational as the church came into existence. We now have elders and pastor/teachers, men, who in the formal church setting, proclaim the revelation given to the apostles. I do not believe we are receiving new revelation or truth. It’s all contained in the Word. What is taught and proclaimed by people in and out of the church today should be examined by God’s word. Can a woman prophesy, or proclaim truth? Of course! Can she teach? Absolutely! Should she do both in the congregation of men and women in a formal church setting on a Sunday morning? I think this is what Paul says is shameful. The Lord has set up guidelines for the leadership roles in the church and for what brings edification to the body. In the formal church setting, where the whole congregation is gathered, I believe this is where the women are to remain silent. In what we now often see in churches, what we call "small groups", I don't think it is a problem at all for the women to speak and share. It's like what we are doing here at FP. I believe women can point out error to men as well, but they are to remain silent in the formal gathering of the body. I don’t see the limiting of women teaching women only (1 Tim. 2:12) as denigrating to women as some might think. Teaching women is an honor, not second best. I would not want teach a man. I would not want to be accountable for how he lives his life and treats his family. It is an honor to lead women in the paths of righteousness, so that they can love their husbands and children, create a godly atmosphere of servanthood, of kindness and forgiveness in their home, so that their husbands are glorified by the helpmeet actions of their wives.

As for Joel 2:28, some view this will occur just prior to the day of the Lord, others hold to the position that this outpouring of the Spirit will occur as we move into the millennial kingdom. I lean to the latter position. Whenever it does occur, many men and women will proclaim the truth of God’s Word where they once remained silent. I don’t see tongues related to this outpouring, just prophesying and visions and dreams.

[revelation12eleven]

By the way Orange, if you were to ever visit my church, I would say hi to you, and we'd have a nice chat as well!

[Abiding in His Word]

In the formal church setting, where the whole congregation is gathered, I believe this is where the women are to remain silent.

1Cor. 14:26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

Paul says nothing of the size of the assembly; the "formality" of the assembly; nor who can and cannot teach in the assembly.

In what we now often see in churches, what we call "small groups", I don't think it is a problem at all for the women to speak and share.

On what scripture are you basing women speaking and sharing in small groups?

It's like what we are doing here at FP. I believe women can point out error to men as well, but they are to remain silent in the formal gathering of the body.

[/quote]

On what scripture are you basing women's right to point out error to men?

[The Orange Mailman]

Hey Mo-

I'm not going to debate with you because that's not why I invited you here. Others can read our points of view and gain insight from our different perspectives. But if we start we will wind up in a ping pong match with two balls going and you remember that it gets tiring after a while.

But I do want to say that funny things happen when you are around. On my route the other day I was meditating on this passage. Something occurred to me and when I got home I looked up to see where the breaks in the passages are. In the ESV, it is poetry in Joel 2:28-29, then a break, then it turns to prose in 2:30-32. In the NKJV, it is poetry in Joel 2:28-29, then a break, then poetry in 2:30-32. Obviously, the two sections are related, but a break could account for how the two will be fulfilled. At the end of verse 29, it is clear that there is an extended period of time meaning "in those days". So when Peter quotes Joel, he states, "in the last days" instead of "afterward". But Peter quotes the entire passage, not just 2:28-29. (On a side note, I think it's odd that ESV has 30-32 in poetry in the quotation in Acts 2 when it’s prose in Joel.)

Being that the Day of the LORD is a time period when God breaks forth into the affairs of mankind, wouldn't the pouring out of the Holy Spirit occur during that Day of the LORD? The signs in the earth also, the blood, fire and pillars of smoke, they would be God breaking into the affairs of mankind during the Day of the LORD. Perhaps these are an overview of the plagues.

So, allow me to present something. The Day of the LORD is described when Joel sees the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the signs in the earth. Then when describing the signs in heaven, we have the time marker which places them as a harbinger to this very period in time. The cosmic signs will occur BEFORE this Day of the LORD will come. We could read the passage like this:

And in the last days (beginning at Pentecost and culminating at the Day of the LORD), God will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh (all who repent). The sons and daughters of Israel will see visions, dream dreams, and prophesy to those that hear them during these days. Break. During this time (solely the day of the LORD) there will be signs here upon the earth, blood, fire, and vapor of smoke. But, before the aforementioned Day of the LORD (Joel 2:28-30) comes, there will be cosmic signs which occur. It will come to pass that anyone who simply calls on the name of the LORD will be saved during this time.

Peter quotes the entire passage as a point of motivation toward repentance for the nation of Israel. He tells the whole story not just plucking out the portion which is being fulfilled at that time. The nation of Israel stood under God's judgement at that time for their rejection of the Messiah. But the way of escape is by repentance and calling on the name of the LORD. In this way, Peter implored them to "save themselves from this present wicked generation," Acts 2:40. Because this Holy Spirit is being poured out, Peter viewed it positive proof that they were in the last days of this age which would lead into the Messianic Kingdom which would be precursored by the cosmic signs. So the whole passage is applicable even if it isn't fulfilled.

Yes, exactly. The dreams and visions (and the blood, fire, and columns of smoke) will occur during the Millennium, in my view.

These things will continue in some fashion throughout the Millennium since millennial blessings cannot be attained without the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, Isaiah 44:1-5. But it seems to me that at the end of the age (which is the rapture), that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit will begin at that time with the sealing of the 144,000.

I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on this latest twist that I’m considering.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[nike]

Hmmm...a new twist...

I'm following the logic better with this one...

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Orange Mailman,

I know you were directing your "twist" to Mo, but I'm hoping you won't mind if I jump in and agree with everything you posted with one little exception.... which may not be an exception at all.

And in the last days (beginning at Pentecost and culminating at the Day of the LORD), God will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh (all who repent). The sons and daughters of Israel will see visions, dream dreams, and prophesy to those that hear them during these days.

Are you seeing this prophecy regarding dreams, visions, and prophesy for the sons and daughters of Israel only? Because the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was for gentiles as well.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hello Abiding-

Jump right in. The more the merrier.

The 144,000 are all Israelites. They are the firstfruits. Like Overcomer said, there may be second fruits. I'm inclined to believe that there will be Gentiles who receive the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. I mentioned up above somewhere that at Pentecost, only Israelites received the Holy Spirit. It was not until years later that the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit. This was after Peter and John went to visit them. The Holy Spirit would not fall on them until Peter and John prayed for them. The same thing happened with Gentiles. God had to give Peter a vision and then have Him visit Cornelius before the Holy Spirit would fall on the Gentiles. So perhaps this same progression will occur as the Messianic Kingdom is established. How would you take Psalm 68:31?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Abiding in His Word]

So perhaps this same progression will occur as the Messianic Kingdom is established. How would you take Psalm 68:31?

hmm.... now I'm getting a bit confused. As I mentioned in a post above, it appears that Peter was quoting Joel as a 2-part (near/far) fulfillment. Verses 17 and 18 were being fulfilled at the time. Since the gift of tongues was evidenced at that same time, I see a simultaneous fulfillment of all the gifts including Joel's dreams, visions, and prophecies. And since there are a number of members on the board (including me) who have received some of those manifestations, I don't see the progression of Jews first and gentiles second necessarily although there are a good number of Messianic Jews who may have received these gifts previously. But how would we know which came first? Didn't Paul say the Jews would be provoked to jealousy by the gentiles?

Then Acts 2:19-20 is the second of the 2-part; yet to be fulfilled. In other words, Pentecost was the beginning of the end of the age.

[Birdwatcher]

Hey Mo-

I'm not going to debate with you because that's not why I invited you here. Others can read our points of view and gain insight from our different perspectives. But if we start we will wind up in a ping pong match with two balls going and you remember that it gets tiring after a while.

Sure do remember! It's hard for me just to post anything useful during the week sometimes. Maybe Mo can catch up on the weekend.

-Mo

[Birdwatcher]

Mo, I have some questions for you...you mentioned 1 Th. 5:19 and how Paul instructed the Thessalonians not to despise prophetic utterances. What is your understanding of what Paul meant by a prophetic utterance?

Uh, position? I haven't looked at it much. But maybe I should.

Is it referring to the same thing when Paul told the Corinthians that the one who prophesies edifies the church? My position is that until the completion of scripture, prophetic utterances could be new revelation but after the completion of scripture prophesying would be proclaiming what was already revealed.

Based on what verses? 1 Cor. 14:8-10 is the usual passage quoted, and it refers to prophecy, tongues, and knowledge -- not just prophecy. I think I'm seeing that it means when we have mature gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge in operation (presumably during the Millennium), then we will not need the less perfect form of those gifts that we participate in today. Does that make sense?

The false prophesying mentioned in Zechariah 13, this would not be new revelation either, but teaching and proclaiming that does not line up with the Word. For us today, when Paul says to "test all things" after he says not to despise prophetic utterances, I would take this to mean we need to carefully examine what is being taught and preached, does it line up with the closed canon of scripture? Prophecy is listed as a spiritual gift (1 Cor. 12:10) so I believe it is a gift that exists today, but the one who exercises this gift today is simply speaking forth or proclaiming what is already in the written Word. Paul lists the regulations for the use of spiritual gifts in the church in 1 Cor. 12 and if taken at face value, he seems to restrict the use of the speaking gifts, tongues, interpretations, and prophesying, only to men...but then in Joel 2:28 it says your sons and daughters will prophecy...I'm scratching my head again...your thoughts? Also, check your PMs.

I think men and women, boys and girls, have the gifts of prophesy, tongues, knowledge, etc. today. But only the men are to lead the Church Universal and the individual congregations thereof. The women are to submit to the men as the Lord Yeshua submitted to His God and Father. I'm currently reading a book by Wayne Grudem on this subject, which he and John Piper call the "complementarian" view (as opposed to the egalitarian view).

For the Kingdom,

Mo

PS -- Thanks for your PM.

[revelation12eleven]

Abiding,

You and I have different views on the Timothy verses on teaching. I do believe that women are not to teach men. In small group settings, where the teaching was first done through the sermon or a book and then discussion is opened up, the fact that I am with my husband and Q&A is desired, allows women to raise questions and give input. That is the format of small groups today. It is not the corporate worship setting of the church service, though worship is part of all we do. As for pointing out error, in the small group setting, scripture discussion often leads to an understanding that leads to repentance. That’s all I was saying. Women can take over small groups as well as church services. That is not the type of open discussion to which I was referring, or that I would be a part of. I desire men to embrace leadership in the church because it is their God-given responsibility. Perhaps my small group experience is different than yours. We obviously come from different views on this.

Mo,

I do hold to the position that once Revelation was finished being penned by John, no new revelation has been given out by the Holy Spirit. Jude writes to those who are called and says we should “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.” Psalm 119:160 says “The sum of Your word is truth.” The body of truth has been given out to us. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is giving out any new truth or revelation based on these verses. That being said, the gift of prophesy in operation today would simply be the ability to proclaim God’s word. I view it more of giving a charge from God’s word, and I do think it is different from the gift of teaching which would be more like a deliberate, academic, working through scripture. Both of these gifts are given to men and women. I believe 1 Tim. 2:12 restrict women to use their gift of teaching only with other women. I understand 1 Cor. 14:34 to give us the guideline that a woman is not to exercise her speaking gifts – teaching, prophesying, tongues, interpretation of a tongue in the corporate church worship setting. (I may be in the minority with this but I take this scripture at face value…) Hadn’t really thought about it as far as children, but if a boy or a girl is a believer, they’ve been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and their giftedness by the Holy Spirit will definitely come to manifest itself as they mature in the faith, are obedient and submit themselves to God’s word. Another thought regarding 1 Cor. 14 - Paul definitely places a much higher priority on prophesying than he does on tongues because prophesying benefits and edifies the whole group where as tongues only benefit an individual. The gift of prophesy is the more desirable gift for that reason. Group edification over self-edification…

What will these gifts look like as we enter the kingdom? Will the same guidelines be used as they are given to us here in 1 Cor? I don’t know…but the Lord will be in our midst and we will be perfect so we will exercise our gifts in a manner that always pleases and glorifies Him.

You are welcome for the pm.

Orange,

You definitely have my attention!

[Abiding in His Word]

I think men and women, boys and girls, have the gifts of prophesy, tongues, knowledge, etc. today. But only the men are to lead the Church Universal and the individual congregations thereof. The women are to submit to the men as the Lord Yeshua submitted to His God and Father. I'm currently reading a book by Wayne Grudem on this subject, which he and John Piper call the "complementarian" view (as opposed to the egalitarian view).

I'm fully aware of Piper and Grudem's views and disagree strongly with their interpretations of scripture in this regard. I am an egalitarian if one must assign labels.

[Abiding in His Word]

Abiding,

You and I have different views on the Timothy verses on teaching. I do believe that women are not to teach men. In small group settings, where the teaching was first done through the sermon or a book and then discussion is opened up, the fact that I am with my husband and Q&A is desired, allows women to raise questions and give input. That is the format of small groups today. It is not the corporate worship setting of the church service, though worship is part of all we do. As for pointing out error, in the small group setting, scripture discussion often leads to an understanding that leads to repentance. That’s all I was saying. Women can take over small groups as well as church services. That is not the type of open discussion to which I was referring, or that I would be a part of. I desire men to embrace leadership in the church because it is their God-given responsibility. Perhaps my small group experience is different than yours. We obviously come from different views on this.

It's ok to have different views, revelation12eleven, providing one can support their views with scripture. I wondered what scripture you based small groups and correction of men on. Perhaps this discussion is not appropriate for this topic, but if you care to pm me with scriptual support for those two things, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

[The Orange Mailman]

Hello Abiding. I certainly don't want to confuse anyone. I believe I'm essentially saying the same thing that I was before and agree with your statements. But now I'm adding a dynamic that wasn't there before. If you don't have a version of the Bible whereby you can see the poetry, you won't be able to see what I'm getting at. Pretty much all the newer versions show the poetry including lines, breaks, etc. Sometimes electronic versions of the Word do not break the poetry up into the specific lines and stanzas.

What I'm saying now is that there is a break in the text in between Joel 2:29 and 2:30. This is what you infer when you mention the same passage in Acts 2 stating that one section is near/far and the other is completely future. So when the fulfillment comes, it would not be unreasonable to suggest that Joel 2:28-29 would be fulfilled in one way, as in, over a period of days since it states "in those days" and for Joel 2:30-32 to be fulfilled in another way, as in, solely at the Day of the LORD.

But I'm also stating that the original context would have been the Day of the LORD in connection with the repentance of Israel and the end of the age. When a remnant repented at Pentecost, that remnant received the pouring out of the Holy Spirit in advance. They began to experience the Kingdom of God before its actually arrival. Peter clarifies that what they were experiencing is the same Holy Spirit to be poured out at the Day of the LORD. Yet they were experiencing it in advance. To take a quip from George Ladd, they were experiencing the presence of the future.

Peter couldn't change the fact that Joel stated that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit would occur in conjunction with the Day of the LORD, but He could reveal that Pentecost opened up the last days of the end of this age which would lead into the Day of the LORD eventually. I know it seems like we are splitting hairs sometimes, but we have to try to envision what Joel originally saw without any NT help, then confer with the NT to see if that confirms what we are seeing. Progressive revelation can be a tricky thing, but it's a worthwhile study.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. If you are still confused, let me know. But your quote sounded almost exactly like what I have been thinking.

[Abiding in His Word]

Peter couldn't change the fact that Joel stated that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit would occur in conjunction with the Day of the LORD, but He could reveal that Pentecost opened up the last days of the end of this age which would lead into the Day of the LORD eventually.

Agreed!

I know it seems like we are splitting hairs sometimes, but we have to try to envision what Joel originally saw without any NT help, then confer with the NT to see if that confirms what we are seeing. Progressive revelation can be a tricky thing, but it's a worthwhile study.

Agreed again! Woohoo! I do absolutely believe in and love to study progressive revelation throughout the Word. In fact, I think it would make a very worthwhile topic, but long ago I did ask the question on the board and only one person replied with a very short reply...."yes."
The wisdom and longsuffering of God are so awesome and apparent when scripture is examined with this understanding.

Thank you again for your clarification. Are you beginning to sound like me? It's definitely a good thing when two are in agreement!

[Birdwatcher]

I think men and women, boys and girls, have the gifts of prophesy, tongues, knowledge, etc. today. But only the men are to lead the Church Universal and the individual congregations thereof. The women are to submit to the men as the Lord Yeshua submitted to His God and Father. I'm currently reading a book by Wayne Grudem on this subject, which he and John Piper call the "complementarian" view (as opposed to the egalitarian view).

I'm fully aware of Piper and Grudem's views and disagree strongly with their interpretations of scripture in this regard. I am an egalitarian if one must assign labels.

Personally, I like to have labels, jargon, and codes available to me. They make communicating complicated subjects or long phrases easier. It's like saying DOTL instead of Day of the LORD. Just a bit quicker, and we all know what is meant. As long as we're using neutral terms and not derogatory ones, labels work well, don't they?

It's ok to have different views, revelation12eleven, providing one can support their views with scripture.

Though it's obvious that at least one of the views must be mistaken, there's not much we can do about that other than try to help others see what's in the Word, reexamining our own views prayerfully, and then go on loving them if we still end up disagreeing.

It's definitely a good thing when two are in agreement!

For sure!

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[Abiding in His Word]

Personally, I like to have labels, jargon, and codes available to me. They make communicating complicated subjects or long phrases easier. It's like saying DOTL instead of Day of the LORD. Just a bit quicker, and we all know what is meant.

Birdwatcher,

I believe DOTL is an acronym they are perfectly acceptable to use providing one understands what those group of letters stand for.

As long as we're using neutral terms and not derogatory ones, labels work well, don't they?

Labels (imo) tend to define people according to the term used. Through that label, most form immediate perceptions which may or may not be accurate. We view those labels through a lens which normally has been instilled in us via a variety of sources and is not easily dismissed or changed without being confronted with the consequences and errors of such stereotypes.

as I see it....

[Birdwatcher]

But I do want to say that funny things happen when you are around.

Nice of you to notice, Orange Mailman! (hoping that was a compliment)

On my route the other day I was meditating on this passage. Something occurred to me and when I got home I looked up to see where the breaks in the passages are. In the ESV, it is poetry in Joel 2:28-29, then a break, then it turns to prose in 2:30-32. In the NKJV, it is poetry in Joel 2:28-29, then a break, then poetry in 2:30-32. Obviously, the two sections are related, but a break could account for how the two will be fulfilled.

Obviously??? But that would be debating . . .

At the end of verse 29, it is clear that there is an extended period of time meaning "in those days". So when Peter quotes Joel, he states, "in the last days" instead of "afterward". But Peter quotes the entire passage, not just 2:28-29. (On a side note, I think it's odd that ESV has 30-32 in poetry in the quotation in Acts 2 when it’s prose in Joel.)

What I'm seeing in the various translations is that they're all over the board regarding:
1. whether Joel 2:28-29 (about the Millennium which follows the DOTL) is in poetry or prose.
2. whether Joel 2:30 (also about the Millennium, but which some lump with the signs mentioned in v. 31) is in poetry or prose.
3. whether Joel 2:31-32 (about the signs that precede the DOTL and the physical rescue of the survivors via Rapture or Winepress) is in poetry or prose.
4. whether Joel 3:1-3 (about the restoration of Judah and Jerusalem during the DOTL) is in poetry or prose.

Being that the Day of the LORD is a time period when God breaks forth into the affairs of mankind, wouldn't the pouring out of the Holy Spirit occur during that Day of the LORD? The signs in the earth also, the blood, fire and pillars of smoke, they would be God breaking into the affairs of mankind during the Day of the LORD. Perhaps these are an overview of the plagues.

So, allow me to present something. The Day of the LORD is described when Joel sees the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the signs in the earth. Then when describing the signs in heaven, we have the time marker which places them as a harbinger to this very period in time. The cosmic signs will occur BEFORE this Day of the LORD will come. We could read the passage like this:

And in the last days (beginning at Pentecost and culminating at the Day of the LORD), God will pour out His Spirit upon all flesh (all who repent). The sons and daughters of Israel will see visions, dream dreams, and prophesy to those that hear them during these days. Break. During this time (solely the day of the LORD) there will be signs here upon the earth, blood, fire, and vapor of smoke. But, before the aforementioned Day of the LORD (Joel 2:28-30) comes, there will be cosmic signs which occur. It will come to pass that anyone who simply calls on the name of the LORD will be saved during this time.

I would love to believe that there will be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord and that we believers will be participating in lots of miracles and really doing damage to Satan's kingdom right up to the Rapture. That the enemy will be glad to see us go because of all the trouble we've caused him. That my friend is right when he says, "The Tribulation isn't happening to me; I'm happening to the Tribulation." But that's not what I see when I study the Word. I won't go into this further because your goal wasn't a debate.

Peter quotes the entire passage as a point of motivation toward repentance for the nation of Israel. He tells the whole story not just plucking out the portion which is being fulfilled at that time. The nation of Israel stood under God's judgement at that time for their rejection of the Messiah. But the way of escape is by repentance and calling on the name of the LORD. In this way, Peter implored them to "save themselves from this present wicked generation," Acts 2:40. Because this Holy Spirit is being poured out, Peter viewed it positive proof that they were in the last days of this age which would lead into the Messianic Kingdom which would be precursored by the cosmic signs. So the whole passage is applicable even if it isn't fulfilled.

The spiritual salvation being offered was similar to the physical salvation mentioned in Joel 2:32. Perhaps that's why Peter extends the quotation. It's not uncommon, though, for a quotation to contain the context (rather than just the phrase or two that's relevant to the discussion underway).

Yes, exactly. The dreams and visions (and the blood, fire, and columns of smoke) will occur during the Millennium, in my view.

These things will continue in some fashion throughout the Millennium since millennial blessings cannot be attained without the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, Isaiah 44:1-5. But it seems to me that at the end of the age (which is the rapture), that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit will begin at that time with the sealing of the 144,000.

I would certainly appreciate your thoughts on this latest twist that I’m considering.

Is this sealing the same as salvation, which most believers agree includes receiving the Holy Spirit? If so, then the Spirit is "poured out" on the 144,000 in the sense that they get saved and (therefore) filled with the Spirit.

I certainly see the "spirit of grace and supplication" being poured out on the repentant Jews of Jerusalem just after the 144,000 are sealed and the Church is raptured, based on Zech. 12:10. They mourn over the Messiah in Zech. 12:10-14. Then in Zech. 13:1, we read that these penitent ones are being cleansed from sin, which is spiritual salvation. But we don't read of the HS signs from Joel happening here. Quite the contrary, we see that those prophesying will be killed.

I'd like to take the evidence that Joel 2:28-29 (or even 28-30) is poetry and the rest of the chapter is prose, like 3:1-8 is, as evidence that my suggested "subject change break" is clearly there. But given the great variety of ways the translators see this, it's not clear that this is solid evidence.

The Lord reclaims Israel for Himself -- both the Land and the People -- during the DOTL. They receive His Spirit as they are saved during this time. That's the way in which I see the Spirit being poured out abundantly during this time. But I don't see the super-abundant, signs-and-wonders, vision-and-prophecy outpouring that Joel describes in chapter 2 verses 28-30. Maybe I'm not seeing what's there. (That's certainly been the case before now.)

For the Kingdom,

-Mo

[The Orange Mailman]

Hiya Mo-

I would love to believe that there will be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord and that we believers will be participating in lots of miracles and really doing damage to Satan's kingdom right up to the Rapture. That the enemy will be glad to see us go because of all the trouble we've caused him. That my friend is right when he says, "The Tribulation isn't happening to me; I'm happening to the Tribulation." But that's not what I see when I study the Word. I won't go into this further because your goal wasn't a debate.

No doubt that the saints are given into the hand of the beast for 42 months. He prevails against them. But it is also clear that the woman is supernaturally protected for this entire time. The 144,000 canNOT be touched. I believe Psalm 46 and 96 foretell of a group of people in the midst of this turbulent time that "be still and know that He is God". They sing the new song as heralds of the coming kingdom.

The Lord reclaims Israel for Himself -- both the Land and the People -- during the DOTL. They receive His Spirit as they are saved during this time. That's the way in which I see the Spirit being poured out abundantly during this time. But I don't see the super-abundant, signs-and-wonders, vision-and-prophecy outpouring that Joel describes in chapter 2 verses 28-30. Maybe I'm not seeing what's there. (That's certainly been the case before now.)

What about the two witnesses? Do the signs and miracles that they perform qualify for the Joel 2:28-30 super-abundant classification?

I'm trying to fit your view into the verses. It's certainly plausible that the pouring out of the Holy Spirit is characteristic of the Messianic Kingdom in light of Isaiah 11:9. But, how do you reconcile the fact that Peter used the phrase "in the last days" when describing the passage in Joel and applying it to the baptism of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost? Remember that the term "the last days" is specific in the NT beginning with the time of Messiah, Hebrews 1:1-2, and extending through those scoffing that Messiah may never return, II Peter 3. I'd rather not get into Isaiah 2 if you don't mind. I think Isaiah's last days meant something different than the NT usage. Surely Peter didn't mean that the time for all nations to flow unto the temple at Zion had begun. So there must be another explanation for why Peter used the phrase "the last days" instead of "afterward".

So in short, how does your millennial view of Joel 2:28-29 hold up under this word substitution?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. Yes, compliments all the way.

DPR - Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

V - Just wait till I get going! Now where was I?

DPR - Australia.

[The Orange Mailman]

By the way Orange, if you were to ever visit my church, I would say hi to you, and we'd have a nice chat as well!

Thanks Overcomer. Who knows? The odds are that I'd visit Nike's church before yours, if you know what I'm saying. I wonder if Nike is as friendly as you are?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[nike]

Nike is VERY friendly!

And Nike's husband is preaching August 9,16 and 24 on I and II Thessalonians...that would be a perfect time to visit!

Do you wear your mailman uniform to church, or will she have to look for that orange scarf? (Thought I'd continue the third person thing to be consistent...)