2006 Watchman Speaks - VIDEO (Pre-wrath)
(Transcript of Mr. Herb Peters‘ Presentation)
I think what he saw in me was I’m a fellow biker. I had to get off street bikes though when we had our kids and so we got into dirt bikes, but I’ve had my time on street bikes.
You know, Jesus uses all of us. It doesn’t matter if you’re a biker, or what. And we all have our niche, we all have our place, we’re all important, without us something is missing. We’re all part of the body of Christ. We have many members. But we have one Lord. And we’re here to serve our Lord. And we are told, “Little children, guard yourself from idols.” I’ve always been fascinated with the ending that John gave there. “Little children, guard yourself from idols.” We live in a modern time. We don’t have the idols like they did back in the Apostle John’s day all around us in that sense, but we still have our idols, don’t we. Motorcycles can become an idol, can’t they, if we aren’t careful. When I see a motorcycle winding its way through the canyon that we drive all the time, I sure want a motorcycle again. And it’s easy to have our idols if we’re not careful and God doesn’t mind us having things. All He wants is to make sure that He’s first. That’s really all He wants, He wants to be first. He wants to be first and He’s a a very jealous God. And we think of jealousy in a bad sense, a lot of times, because jealousy can be a sin and it can be bad. But it can also be a good thing when it shows the heart of someone who loves you. Someone who loves you and their heart is broken. And that’s the sense that God is jealous over us because when we turn from Him. His heart is broken. He has given so much for us.
Pastor Mike told me to speak what was on my heart, and he did the same thing to me last year. He told me to speak what was on my heart. At that time, I was always professing myself “rapture neutral.” How many of you remember that time, when, okay, it actually became kind of a popular term. I noticed other people picking it up, “I’m rapture neutral.”
And one time, I was talking to one of the leaders of the pre-tribulation position, and they were starting to pick up my information and use it, and they were two of some of the biggest names. I was so encouraged that I contacted them and I told them “Look,“ I said, "Why don’t we work together on this.” Because I had all the information. I knew that they couldn’t understand it the way I did. They were really behind the curve on this information and I knew that they wanted to use it.
Unfortunately, at the same time, there were also many people from my website contacting these people and they were actually accusing them of using my information, in a wrong way. So that set the stage for a reaction. Evidently, these individuals, I guess, thought that was coming from me and it wasn’t. I was just glad they were using the information. I didn’t care. I wanted the information out. I was pretty much blasted, publicly, in a major way. My name was mentioned, my book, my website, and even private e-mail. In my joy of finally contacting someone of a big name, in my joy, my private e-mail was even exposed, in a very public way. I was very disillusioned, to say the least. I’m sharing this for a reason. I have a reason for sharing this. There’s a big temptation when you start a ministry. There’s a big temptation to appeal to the biggest market. It’s a huge temptation and you don’t know how many times I’ve seen some acquaintance of mine through my ministry start picking up a ministry of their own using this information, who doesn’t have a strong opinion on the rapture. Suddenly, they have one. I can’t help but think, "Why?" Because they are looking for the approval of those who can promote them. And I was tempted.
I had an hour long conversation with one such individual. The unsaid word was basically, the problem is you don’t promote the pre-trib. If you want us to promote you, you have to. It wasn’t said in that way, no, but the meaning was clear and I became confronted with the reality that almost anyone who starts a ministry now, today, is confronted with; if you want your ministry to be promoted, you have to have a certain position on the rapture. I was confronted with that. I made a decision that I was going to not be swayed by that. I was not going to allow myself, regardless. If it’s God, if He’s going to do something, fine. If He doesn‘t, fine, I’ll do something else. But if God is not promoting me, if I have to look to others to do it, then I am not going to do it. Because I was already having doubts, I was rapture neutral. Because I was rapture neutral, it was clear I wasn’t a strong pre-trib person and one of these individuals that I had a conversation with told me “Well, I’m not rapture neutral.” In other words, I had to have a certain position.
And so, I remained rapture neutral because I wasn’t sure what I believed. And it wasn’t until last year, when Pastor Mike said “Herb, come out with it, come out with what you believe.” At that moment he said that to me, I still didn’t know for sure. I hadn’t made that step. I hadn’t made that decision, I hadn’t professed with my mouth. But I did at the last conference. I said “I’m pre-wrath, I’m pre-wrath” and it changed. You know, it’s amazing, since I said I was pre-wrath, instead of going down the tubes. I thought that was the end of my ministry last year. Pastor Mike shared that with you, didn’t he. I really thought it was over and I thought that the conference last year was simply something nice that God was doing for me. But my ministry was over. It was over. I was totally resigned to it. What a lot of people didn’t know was I was probably at one of the lowest points in my life and so I thought I would brave it through and do it. But it’s over. And when prophecy was given over me, I took it with a big grain of salt, because I’m cynical at heart. Maybe it’s that German blood in me. You’ve heard of German Rationalism. But I was just cynical and went home to face a bitter reality.
In that year’s time, I’ve shared with you, Fulfilled Prophecy has just reached the top on the internet for end times, according to Alexa. Nobody promoted me but the Lord. And that’s why I saw, when I saw that my website just passed Rapture Ready on Alexa, and I realized how big Rapture Ready was and no one has done that, that I know of. Maybe someone has that I don’t know of, but I know of none other. And it happened just before I put together my presentation and came here. I took it as a mandate from God. Not from some other ministry, but I had a mandate from God. Now that makes me sound, makes me think of the Blues Brothers, “I’m on a mission from God.“ (Laughter) But, sometimes there’s truth that’s hidden in humor and mocking. Satan camouflages things. If he can’t destroy it, he camouflages it, so you can’t tell the real from the false.
And Jesus told us something. When his disciples asked Him, “What are the signs of your coming and the end of the age,” what were the first words out of his mouth? I’m sure most of you remember it. “See to it that no one deceives you.” He put the burden on us, didn’t He. How many times have you heard people say, “Well, I’m saved, I can’t be deceived.” Then why did Jesus say, “See to it that you’re not deceived,” if we can’t be deceived? And why are we later told, “Test the spirits,” if we can’t be deceived?
Many people think, and I say it quite often, if you put Jesus as Lord above you then everybody is expected to believe what you say, so I decided the same applies to me. I have to be able to give reasons for what I believe and I decided to do that tonight and that was what’s on my heart. And, I like to find one place to hang my hat. I like to find one scripture, one place to hang my hat. I always want that, if I can find one.
I have developed a friendship with an elderly man, and I seek out older, wiser people when I can. I want their advice. And I appreciate it. And the wisdom of our older people, I think, is neglected and it shouldn’t be. It’s a mistake. And that doesn’t mean they are right on everything but their wisdom still shines through. And this individual was a graduate of Moody. His peers, his running buddies, the guys he hung with, they were the Dallas guys, Dallas Theological Seminary. And in his studies and research he had privy to all the Dallas papers and work going back to the beginning. The rise of their view and their dispensational view and pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. And he studied all of this. And he told me something quite interesting. He said, “Did you know that Dallas is the one that came up with the idea and the theory that the seven churches in Revelation represent seven stages of church history? Did you know that that was a theory that they developed to support their dispensational view and their pre-tribulation doctrine?” No, I didn’t know that. That’s interesting information, isn’t it.
And he told me one time, he was at a table where Charles Ryrie was sitting and he had the opportunity to ask a question, so he walked up to Charles Ryrie, who is one of the fathers and scholars behind the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, and he said, ”If you only had one verse to use to prove the pre-trib doctrine, what verse would you use?” And Charles Ryrie said this, he said “Revelation 3:10,” is what he said. And I think we could read Rev. 3:10, real quick, right here, would be a good thing to do. Jesus said to the church of Philadelphia, one of the seven churches, “Because you have kept the word of my perseverance,” some translations say patience, “I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world to test those who dwell upon the earth.” So that was the passage that Charles Ryrie gave as his one verse where he hangs his hat. Interestingly, because of this friend of mine’s knowledge, knowing that the only way that verse would prove pre-trib is if he believed that the seven churches represented the seven churches of church ages of history, and knowing that Dallas Theological Seminary came up with that theory, he replied to Charles Ryrie, “So it’s a theory built upon a theory.” And it is, and if you really examine the arguments.
Now, my mistake was having one logic class. Like I said, that’s the only college class that I had, and I always thought since then, that all college graduates, anybody that’s educated, has had logic, and that’s only logical, (Laughter) and it was only about a week ago, or so, that my daughter, who has her Master’s Degree in apologetics, told me for the first time that very few college graduates have logic. I was e-mailed by a person who went to a university that taught the pre-tribulation rapture. So she was going to one class where they were teaching the pre-tribulation rapture and another where, “so I did this and this and that and I’m saved.” Is that a logical argument? No, because the first premise is not good. And these are the type of arguments that have established the pre-tribulation doctrine, in my opinion. And I’m just using logic, I’m not claiming to be super smart. I’m just saying it doesn’t pass the test of sound doctrine.
When the Apostle Paul was talking about sound doctrine, he was an Hellenistic Jew, he knew logic. He was Greek educated. He knew logic. Today, we live in a time when it says people will not endure sound doctrine but wanting to have their ears tickled they will take to themselves teachers who will teach according to their own desires and they will turn away from the truth to myth. And Jesus said this about the end times, he said, “See to it that no one deceives you.” He was talking about His second coming. He was talking specifically about His second coming. In Matthew 24:23, 27, I told you we would have a little bit of a Bible story, study, here so, if you have your Bibles, turn to Matthew 24, and let’s start with verse 23. Then, now, when I see the word “then,” I know that he is talking about a specific time. Remember, when they asked Him what would be the sign of your coming and the end of the age, He said there’s going to be, you’re going to hear wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, but then He goes on to say but that’s not the end, those aren’t it. All of the sudden, He puts in the word “then.” “Then they will deliver you to tribulation.” Remember what the Apostle John said? “Little children it is the last hour. And as you hear that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen. By this you know that it is the last hour.” Wasn’t he saying just what Jesus said? Wasn’t that John’s understanding of what Jesus said? Remember when Daniel received revelation from God, an angel came and interpreted it for him? So we wonder, for example, what does it mean when the little horn pulls three horns out by the roots. We have no need to wonder, because later the angel interprets that for us. It says that the little horn will subdue three kings. That’s what it means. So why would we put any other meaning on it when we have the angel telling us what it means. But I see it all the time.
How many times have you heard that it’s going to be some nation ripped out or something, never exist anymore? All kinds of other spin people put on it, other than what the angel said. And we all do that. For good motive, most of us, when we say something that’s not quite right. We have good motives. We have a belief, we have a belief system. We’ve all been raised with a belief system. But you know something, it came as quite a revelation to me to find out that not all of my belief system was right. And you know something, once I realized that, I find that I’m not so critical of other people who I think might be deceived. Because I’ve been deceived. I’ve been deceived and I believe that the church, as a whole, here in America, has been deceived. And I’m going to speak out about that. And I’m not going to pull any punches about that because I believe the Lord may have given me a platform to do it. And I’m going to come out and say what I believe. The church has been deceived. It’s been put to sleep. Jesus said, “Stay awake, stay alert.” And you look at the verses that are used, that would argue against this, they don’t even hold up.
For example, in Thessalonians, where Paul talks about the Day of the Lord coming as a thief, he says, “But we’re not as those who sleep.” No, when the Antichrist is revealed in His temple, he’s going to come as a big surprise, but he’s going to come as a surprise to those who are asleep and the unbelievers, not to those who are awake. And then we hear how, “Oh, it will be like in the days of Noah.” Yeah, it will, many people forget though that those that were in the ark knew what was coming, and when. Now, I’m not saying I know the time and the date. No, I’m not saying that. No, they probably didn’t know the day and the hour. I’m sure they didn’t. But they knew it was coming and they knew it was soon. But those on the outside sure didn’t, the unbelievers, did they. But those in the ark, they knew. Those who believed what Noah was saying, didn’t they know? And it’s going to be as in the days of Noah, is what Jesus said. And, then we hear, there will be no signs.
Now, one of the doctrines you hear about is Imminency, and they’re saying that the only way you can believe in Imminency is to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. That’s not true. I mean, if you already believe that way, and that’s the way it is, if you look at the arguments for the pre-trib doctrine, if you already believe that way, they’ll work. But what if you don’t already believe that way and you’re trying to establish a sound doctrine and you are carefully examining the premises that they are built on. I find that it doesn’t work. It only works for those who already believe and if you want to retrofit, like the seven church ages of history; if you want to believe that and you go back down and look through history, you can retrofit that. And it’s amazing how well it fits, but did you know you can do that with Preterism, too? How many of us here believe in Preterism? Have you ever studied it? It will blow you away. Believe me, in history, they find, it’s amazing. I would almost recommend you study it, if it wouldn’t catch you. Because it’s false, it’s wrong. Preterism is believing that all the prophecies have already been fulfilled, back in history. And if you want to take the prophecies and retrofit them back to history, you’ll be able to do it, just like you will the seven church ages of history. That’s not how you determine doctrine, that’s not sound doctrine. And you can see it’s a passion with me.
You know, I’ve really prayed on this. I’ve become disturbed over what I see happening, and it really bothers me. It actually has gotten me to the point of almost being a little angry because I know how. I received an e-mail from someone once. This person said, “How dare you speak against any other ministry.” “How dare you speak against any other ministry.” Didn’t quite use those words, but it was to that effect. I know the thinking, I’ve been there. I grew up in this thing, this evangelical Christian world. I grew up in it, and I knew exactly what he meant. I told him, you know, I don’t see anywhere in Scripture where it says you can’t speak against another ministry, especially if you think they are misleading God’s people. If they are misleading God’s people publicly, wouldn’t you speak publicly that they are misleading God’s people? And if they can mislead God’s people, it’s not okay for me to mention it? There’s a two-way street here and you wouldn’t believe how many times I’ve been told that I’ve got to really toe the line with this pre-trib thing, and they’re okay. They tell me I’m supposed to toe their line? And I can’t say what I feel? I mean, there is something wrong here and I don’t mean this, maybe I’m coming across too strong, but I tell you what, I’ve been on the receiving end of some stuff that’s opened my eyes and it’s really opened my eyes.
One of the surprising things I’ve found is the people that talk to me don’t know as much about the Bible as I do. It’s like going to a mechanic and you pay, you’re going to hire somebody to fix your car and after a little bit of conversation you realize you know more than he does. How many of you have experienced that? Yeah, and that’s been my experience. That’s really been my experience. I’ve been there, done that. I used to teach pre-trib. I know all the teaching and arguments and I tried desperately to make them stick, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t with a clean conscience. Because I knew it didn’t fit. And, so I’ve come to what’s known as the pre-wrath view. What is interesting about that is, I’ve noticed that most of your leading pre-trib, I’m talking about the leading pre-trib teachers where we would go to get the arguments, and what have you, never, rarely do they deal with the pre-wrath. They’ll choose instead to deal with the mid-trib, or the post-trib, but they won’t touch the pre-wrath, most of them. I’ve noticed that, it just stands out. I find myself reading their stuff and I almost yell out sometimes, “How about the pre-wrath, it fits, it works, it answers all your questions, it works.” The pre-trib doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work. If you’ve read your Bible long enough, you know that. So I decided to speak out what I believe and I’ll tell you what first drew my attention, besides trying to figure out what I was saying wrong.
What first drew my attention to the problem was Daniel, Chapter 7, when I was writing my book. And let’s go to Daniel, Chapter 7, let’s just do that. I don’t want to run out of time here, so let’s get to that. And let’s start, we’re talking about the fourth beast, this is the last beast kingdom that is to come on the earth, until the Messiah comes. Now let’s start with Daniel 7, verse 7:
“After this I kept looking in the night visions and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet and it was different from all the beasts that were before it and it had ten horns. While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them and three of the first horns were pulled up by the roots before it. And behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man. And a mouth uttering great boasts.”
Now, where have we heard that before? About the little horn uttering great boasts? Now, let’s real quick turn to Revelation 13:5. When we read the Book of Revelation, we first need to know the Book of Daniel. There are words links made between the two books. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, was intentionally making word links between the two books. Starting with verse 5, “and there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for 42 months was given to him.” There’s a direct word connection there.
“And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven, and it was given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. And all who dwell on earth will worship him. Everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain.”
Okay, so here we have a context of what we’re talking about in Daniel. And the thing I noticed about this is what happened afterwards. Now, here’s the point I’m really getting to; in Daniel 9, after we see this little horn come up, subdue three kings and go into the temple and make himself equal with God, which is what this is clearly talking about, we read this, “I kept looking until thrones were set up and the Ancient of Days took his seat, his vesture was like white snow and his hair of his head like pure wool; His throne was a blaze of flames, its wheels were burning fire,” and then I’m going to drop down to verse 10, “the court sat and the books were opened.”
Now, where have we seen that before? This throne room scene? Remember Revelation, Chapter 4? Revelation, Chapter 4, is where the doors open in heaven and the voice says, “Come up here.” And what does John see? He sees the Father sitting on the throne. It’s the same throne room scene, isn’t it? But what’s wrong with it? Where is this throne room scene being put? It’s being put after the antichrist goes into the temple, not before. Now, who’s teaching that? Now, that’s a serious question and I really asked that and I’ve been confused about that. Who’s teaching that? Nobody that I know of, because if you look at it, it doesn’t matter if you’re pre-wrath, pre-trib, post, whatever, just about everybody is teaching that the throne room scene occurs at the beginning of the 70th week. Not after the antichrist goes into the temple and makes himself out to be God, in the middle of the week. Yet, here we see the throne room scene, of Revelation, Chapter 4, happening afterwards. It happens in a three and a half year period, not a seven-year period. It’s as, to me, it’s as clear as that I have to wear glasses. It’s that clear, and notice, going back to the result of the throne room scene in Daniel , “I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body was destroyed and given to burning fire.” Isn’t that what it says in Rev. 19:20? It says the same thing in Rev. 19:20. Okay, so here we have, in Daniel, what we have in Rev. 4 through 19. But, it’s happening after the antichrist goes into the temple.
I mean, to me, that’s something that nobody’s answered. I actually put this up on my website once and I challenged somebody to show me why that’s not true. You know, I never had one answer. I did not have one response to that. The closest I had was somebody, I think, once said, “Well, it’s a different throne room scene.” But, once you become comfortable with scripture, you start recognizing, “No, it’s not.” Because God doesn’t throw confusion at us like that. I don’t believe he does. I believe what we see in Revelation is the same thing we’re seeing in the Book of Daniel. And I think we’re supposed to read it together. And there’s a reason for it and there’s a scholar at a university where my daughter was, who confirmed that.
So along the way, I’ve had encouragement from people who are far more knowledgeable about the original languages than I am, who have confirmed many of these views. Yet, at the same time, what I can’t understand is why nobody is teaching it. I can’t understand that. So, hopefully, maybe through this, somebody will show me where I’m wrong. Because if I’m wrong, I want to know it and I don’t like to make a big thing and I’ve chosen to stay quiet until now about this. Because it’s such a change from what’s being taught. So what I’ve come to believe is this. In Revelation, Chapter 6:2, where the antichrist, if you recall, what happens at the throne, is that the Father has a scroll in His hand, a book, that’s written inside and out, it has seven seals. And no one is worthy to open those seals but the Lamb. And John cries, because no one is worthy.
But the Lamb comes. And the Lamb, when He starts breaking open the seals, the first seal we read about in Rev. 6:2, where the rider of the white horse, the rider of the horse is given a crown and he goes out conquering. What does it mean, given a crown? I believe that’s where the antichrist is given his authority to act for 42 months, to wage war with the saints. Once again, what does that do? It puts the throne room scene and the events from that time on, in three and a half years, not seven. Because he’s given authority to act for 42 months. This is contrary to what we’ve been taught and that’s caused me to be very reluctant to even share because I don’t want to be introducing some new heresy, or something like that. I’m always concerned about that and I don’t want to steer anybody wrong. Don’t trust what I’m saying just because I’m saying it, of course. Because if I’m wrong, I want to know it. I don’t want to be some false prophet, or something like that. I want to know it if I’m wrong, and I repent of it, and walk away from it.
Q (question): What’s the conclusion of what you’re saying?
A (answer): Well, the conclusion of that is that we’ve been, I believe, taught wrong, from good intentions. That’s the first conclusion on that. There are things that flow from that. One of them, I believe, is the pre-trib doctrine. And it does bring into question the pre-trib doctrine, I believe. Because the pre-trib doctrine is based on the whole seven-year, 70th week of Daniel, as the tribulation period. I don’t believe that. I believe only in the Great Tribulation that Jesus talked about, not another tribulation that we’re being taught today. I don’t believe it is scriptural. There is a 70th week of Daniel. There is a seven-year period and it is for Israel. But the argument that God does not deal with Israel and the church at the same time is not a very good one. Because we all know that after Acts 2, and the Holy Spirit was given, Israel continued to exist for awhile, didn’t it? So God was dealing with the church and Israel at the same time, wasn’t He?
Q: Can you explain, Jesus said that in the end times they will, right before like He said, the days of Noah, they will be marrying and they will be given into marriage, that they will be drinking and partying and having a good time before He comes. So if the rapture is going to happen and the world is going to be torn apart, Satan is going to be, you know, a lot of stuff happening to us. How is it that we’re going to be able to marrying and tarrying and it‘s going to be (inaudible)?
A: I really don’t see any inconsistency at all there because that doesn’t mean everybody is going to be marrying and doing that. And it doesn’t mean that there’s not going to be a group on this earth that is going to be persecuted terribly. They could be happy in partying about that, couldn’t they. Remember, they give gifts when the two witnesses are killed. They give gifts to each other. That sounds to me like a party. No, I don’t see any inconsistency in that, at all. I know that is one of the arguments that is used, but again, that is typical.
(Questions/Answer period to be completed later.)
Last edited by nonymouse
on Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:54 pm, edited 8 times in total.