Ravi Zacharias Endorsed Book at Contemplative Site

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Ravi Zacharias Endorsed Book at Contemplative Site

Postby chatty-kathi on Mon May 05, 2008 5:38 am

While searching for a previous prayer by Ravi Zacharias showing he previously prayed in Jesus’ name, I came across something very interesting, which is a book endorsement he made. The name of the book is Why Revival Tarries by Leonard Ravenhill. In the endorsement, Ravi refers to this as ''the book that shaped me...more dramatically than any other..." (emphasis added)

What was interesting was that this book review was on the site, The Prayer Foundation, link http://prayerfoundation.org/books/book_ ... arries.htm , and is available to their prayer supporters. Regarding Leonard Ravenhill, the foundation says, “Leonard Ravenhill is considered to be a major influence by Charles Stanley, Ravi Zacharias, and A.W. Tozer… The message is fearless and often radical as he expounds on the disparity between the New Testament church and the church today. Why Revival Tarries contains the heart of his message.” (emphasis added)

The book is listed on their “Top Ten Christian Books” page, which includes books by Richard Foster, Brother Lawrence, and other contemplatives.

Under the section called “About the Prayer Foundation”, we read:

"In 1998, S. G. Preston (Monk Preston) and his wife Linda (Monk Linda), Co-founded The Prayer Foundation ™ as an Interdenominational "Prayer Encouragement" ministry…"

"S. G. Preston currently serves as President of The Prayer Foundation ™, and of the Knights of Prayer ™ Monastic Order."

"The Prayer Foundation ™ Knights of Prayer ™ Monastic Order was the original, very first Monastic Order to be composed solely of born-again Christians. It was founded in 1998."

On the Knights of Prayer page, there is a quote by Leonard Ravenhill from Why Revival Tarries from page 155 that says, “We need knights of prayer to lead nights of prayer.”

From their section called “Monks” is an article from The Boston Globe called The Unexpected Monks, stating, “Some evangelicals turn to monasticism, suggesting unease with megachurch religion - and the stirrings of rapprochement with the Roman Catholic Church.”
Here are some excerpts, which include a comment about Deborah and David Dombrowski:

"…There is now a growing movement to revive evangelicalism by reclaiming parts of Roman Catholic tradition - including monasticism…"

"…Already, they are transforming evangelical religious life in surprising ways. They are post-Protestants, breaking old liturgical and theological taboos by borrowing liberally from Catholic traditions of monastic prayer, looking to St. Francis instead of Jerry Falwell for their social values, and stocking their bookshelves with the writings of medieval mystics rather than the latest from televangelist Joel Osteen."

"The New Monastics come from a variety of religious backgrounds, from Presbyterian to Pentecostal…"

"New Monasticism is part of a broader movement stirring at the margins of American evangelicalism: Evangelicals disillusioned with a church they view as captive to consumerism, sectarian theological debates, and social conservatism. Calling themselves the "emerging church" or "post-evangelicals," these Christians represent only a small proportion of the approximate 60 million evangelicals (sic) Americans. Yet their criticisms may resonate with more mainstream believers. A recent study by Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois - one of the most influential megachurches in the nation - discovered that many churchgoers felt stalled in their faith, alienated by slick, program-driven pastors who focus more on niche marketing than cultivating contemplation. The study suggested that megachurch members know how to belt out jazzy pop hymns from their stadium seats, but they don't always know how to talk to God alone."

"Evangelicals have been tentatively exploring that side of Christian tradition since at least the 1978 publication of "Celebration of Discipline" by Richard Foster, a Quaker theologian who recast fasting and meditative prayer for an evangelical audience. His book sold nearly 2.5 million copies and launched a cottage industry of evangelical contemplative literature - a phrase that, 30 years ago, was a contradiction in terms. Some evangelicals made pilgrimages to the handful of older ecumenical monastic communities abroad, such as the Taizé Community (founded in Burgundy, France, in 1940), and the Iona Community, founded in 1938 at St. Columba's landing place in the Inner Hebrides. They brought back what they learned, and have tried to make it their own."

"Not all of their co-religionists, however, are pleased with these new spiritual ventures. Van Steenwyk received e-mails from friends concerned about his "fringe activities," including accusations that he'd "gotten into bed with the apostate Catholic Church." Deborah Dombrowski, along with her husband, David, founded Lighthouse Trails Publishing and Research Project in 2002 to counteract the "infiltration" of evangelicalism by "mystical spirituality." She fears that New Monastics' contemplative prayer is no different from Eastern meditation, and their openness to Roman Catholicism is only the beginning: 'where it's going is an interspiritual, interfaith, one-world religion, where it all blends together.'"

"…Father Jay Scott Newman, a priest in South Carolina, said that the New Monastic movement suggests a profound shift in evangelical identity."

'Until very recently, an evangelical of whatever stripe included in his self-definition not just opposition to, but violent rejection of everything Catholic,' he said. 'That's no longer true. That's dramatic, revolutionary, and, I think, lasting.'

"To some Catholic observers, it is no shock that evangelicals have begun to feel the lack of organized contemplative life and yearn for a bond with religious tradition - they're only surprised that it took them so long. "Monasticism has been such a powerful thing in the West and the East for so long that it would be very peculiar if it didn't, at one point or another, erupt in evangelical circles," said William Shea, director of the Center for Religion, Ethics, and Culture at the College of the Holy Cross."
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Postby Trepid on Mon May 05, 2008 6:29 pm

Maybe you ought to look a little deeper into Leonard Ravenhill (and even Tozer, his mentor) before you jump to conclusions about him:

Or better yet, listen to him for a few hours:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=1

I doubt he'd have anything to do with monasticism. In fact, the people listed in the top part of that post don't seem to have anything to do with the bottom part.
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Postby brandon on Mon May 05, 2008 7:06 pm

Oh yeah, Kathi, you might want to slow down. Leonard Ravenhill's writings and preaching are very solid and biblical, and he was labeled as a radical, RADICAL Christian teacher. He believed strongly in intercessory prayer, which is probably why he is included on their website. You should probably also note that Len would probably be shocked at a "born again monastic order," but didn't have the chance, since he died in 1994.

Also, I know you're a Lighthouse Research reader. I've been reading them for quite a while, and although they've got some good information, they're also more interested in proving their point then a truthful examination.

For example, in the case of Brother Lawrence, I believed he was some crazy mystic priest who was probably leading people into deception from what I read on their site.

It wasn't until I actually read "practicing the presence of God" until I realized how ridiculous the claims that LTR made about him actually were. They have unreliable sources for some of the things they say about him, and frankly, if you actually read what B.L. talks about, you'd find that what he says about discipling the flesh to constantly abide in the presence of God is very biblical. He's not talking about "the silence" or "contemplative prayer," but an active knowledge that everything he does should be to God's glory and to actively involve Him, even down to cleaning and stirring pots of food.

There's a lot of people that place too much stock into what Lighthouse Trails reports. They are helpful, but don't take everything they say as pure truth.
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Postby chatty-kathi on Wed May 07, 2008 8:13 am

I’m going to make a separate post about Brother Lawrence, because this one is lengthy.

When I first found the endorsement by Ravi Zacharias, I was curious as to why he his book was endorsed by The Prayer Foundation, which is made up of contemplatives, but I thought that the theme of revival was something that fit into their belief system.

Then I discovered that under the heading Knights of Prayer, Monastic Order, was a quote by Leonard Ravenhill from his book, Why Revival Tarries, in which he said, “We need knights of prayer to lead nights of prayer”, obviously showing a connection with this group.

The Prayer Foundation also contains information on Lectio Divina and the Church Fathers, and both teach contemplation.

I’m going to post some articles about Leonard Ravenhill, as well as his son, David.

At Deception in the Church, link http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/transcrp.htm we read a quote about a reference to Leonard Ravenhill and his son, David, from John Kilpatrick's Prophecy Against Hank Hanegraaff, Brownsville Assembly of God, April 6, 1997.

This “prophecy” is in regards to criticism by Hank Hanegraaff of the Pensecola Revival, which is part of the New Apostolic Reformation. I will excerpt the glowing endorsements of both Leonard and David by Steve Hill, the visiting evangelist who started the Pensacola Revival, as well as some previous comments that led up to Hill’s endorsement:

"And they had Hank Hanegraaff on their program and Hank Hanegraaff said, "Yes, I was there." And he said there was a woman up in the choir that shook her head -- [applause] -- that shook her head the whole time.

And they were trying to paint a picture to America that this revival was nothing but a cult and that its coming up in America as something that was evil and deceptive.

I want to say something this morning to Hank Hanegraaff… And I want to say something else to you. If you want to keep any kind of a semblance of a ministry, you better back off from this revival and what God is doing. You better back off, because I'm going to prophesy to you that if you don't, and you continue to put your tongue in your mouth on this move of God, within 90 days the Holy Ghost will bring you down. I said, within 90 days the Holy Ghost will bring you down.

Steve Hill: Yesterday I talked to David Ravenhill. Many of you are familiar with Leonard Ravenhill. David is his son. David is mightily used of God all over the world. Powerful man of God. How many of you are familiar with Leonard Ravenhill? Last night I was talking with David. Leonard wrote all the books on revival, esteemed as a great man of God. David's his son and has always been used in prophetic ministry. He was here at this revival.

He called me. He said, ‘Steve, I just want you to know that Hanegraaff is coming against me, calling me a false prophet in the last days.’ The Ravenhill family!"


At http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/gen ... l#Vineyard , under the Vineyard section of Influence Links Of The Third Wave Movement, we read about Grace Ministries, which holds to the Manifest Sons of God/New Breed theology in the Kansas City Fellowship:

"The list of those associated with Grace Ministries and Kansas City Fellowship is continually growing. Bickel is the team leader. Others that hold leadership positions are: David Parker, Noel Alexander, Michael Sullivant, and Don Steadman.

Other teaching and prophetic ministers who travel extensively are: Francis Frangipane, John Paul Jackson, Kevin Porsche, Reuven Doron, Charles Lynn, Larry Randolph, David Ravenhill, Jim Goll and Harry Schroeder. Rick Joyner, a minister with Morning Star Ministries in North Carolina is also heavily involved."

At http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/history.html are quotes from the original article called Richard M. Riss called A History of the Worldwide Awakening of 1992-1995. Richard Riss is part of the N.A.R., and the original article can be viewed online at http://www.grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/history/ . He writes regarding Steve Hill, the evangelist who started the Pensacola Revival:

"In another e-mail message to Richard Riss dated July 30, 1995, Beth McDuffie wrote:

Let me see... Steve Hill. He in an evangelist missionary who has worked all over the world. The Lord saved him out of drug addiction of over 12 years. He said that he was the fellow that would be out stealing our cars while we were in church. A Lutheran Vicar led him to the Lord, just by having him speak the name "Jesus" over and over. Right after he was saved, he had to go to jail, and from there went into the Teen Challenge program. He has sat under David Wilkerson, and his pastor for the last 3 years was Leonard Ravenhill. He worked in Argentina when the great revival was going on and saw many great healings, and millions of people saved... but had grown very critical in his spirit. (A man in Romania or some place had called him in December and asked him about all the people getting slain in the Spirit and Steve had told him it was all mind control. He had to call and apologize later!)"

I am going to post excerpts from his website of many articles and sermons given by Leonard Ravenhill. In these quotes, we see him discuss New Apostolic Reformation teachings, including Apostolic Ministry, the new wineskins, the new reformation, revival, signs and wonders, God doing a "new thing", Dominionism, even baptism of whole nations.

And what about contemplative prayer, which is the avenue into the New Age Movement? He uses the term groaning in our spirit when describing contemplative prayer, saying its when “the Spirit whispers the secret of God to you… The greatest language of prayer has no vocabulary. The greatest prayers in the Bible have no words.” Here are the excerpts from his website:

From Heart Breathings, http://www.ravenhill.org/heartb20.htm :

"Here in the United States we live like kings compared to millions in other lands. Our greatest danger is not even moral, bad as that is, but spiritual. Prophets, as I have said and written so often, are God's emergency men crisis hours. They thrive on perplexity, override adversity, defeat calamity, bring the new wine of the Kingdom to burst the withered wineskins of orthodoxy, and birth REVIVAL.

Apostolic purity, Apostolic piety, and Apostolic power are the need for today."

From Heart Breathings, http://www.ravenhill.org/heartb16.htm :

"We talk Apostolic doctrine but lack Apostolic deeds. We claim Apostolic faith but lack Apostolic fruit. Some trumpet Apostolic power but lack Apostolic poverty. Some claim Apostolic enduement but lack Apostolic accomplishment. We may have Apostolic vocabularies. Do we have Apostolic victories? Many claim Apostolic succession. Few, if any, dare claim Apostolic success!"

From Heart Breathings, http://www.ravenhill.org/heartb15.htm :

"It seems to me that we can get back to Apostolic Christianity if we want to; or is the road too steep, the reproach too great, the price too high, the sacrifice too involved, and the stigma too unbearable to get up the hill of blessing?"

From Revival Series, Lecture 1, http://www.ravenhill.org/revival1.htm :

"Everybody talks about the baptism. So what do you mean by the baptism? There is a baptism with the Holy Ghost and Fire. Not just with the Holy Ghost, but with Fire. When He comes He will "thoroughly purge His floor and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Which, again, can happen individually, or it can happen in a church, or it can come and work through a whole community, or it can work through a whole nation."

From Weeping Between The Porch And The Altar, Pt. 2 http://www.ravenhill.org/weeping2.htm :

"God never, never intended His church to backslide. God never intended His church to function with anything less than Apostolic Christianity. And it's time to call the church to prayer…

Let me wind this up. I was reading, and I guess I read it every week or I recite it to myself, that amazing chapter that we call the Faith Chapter in Hebrews 11. Faith is mentioned twenty four times in that chapter. I believe the key is not just the word faith, I believe the key is the 6th verse - "He that cometh to God must believe that He is." He is what? He is everything that He said in this Word. And then, you know, I read Hebrews 11: "They subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, women received their dead come to life again." I read that and I knelt down to pray in my office and it's as though the Lord said, "Say that again." And so I said it, "Lord, these people far off there, they subdued whole kingdoms, they wrought righteousness, they obtained promises, they stopped the mouths of lions, women received their dead come to life." And, as somebody said this year, "and not one of them had a Bible." Did you ever consider that? Let me take you back to a time when God's chosen people wondered (sic) around in sheepskins and goatskins! Now we've a land flowing with milk and honey - and churches flowing with mink and money."

From Pentecost At Any Cost, http://www.ravenhill.org/pentecostcost.htm :

"We Christians are a "holey" people. There are holes everywhere in and about our theology. There is a big hole or gap between what we read in the Book and what we practice. There is also a chasm in our church life. We seem at this hour to be as far removed from apostolic Christianity as the pope is from marriage. We are strangers from the commonwealth of the divine power of Pentecost. We are aliens to that city-moving enduement that was known to our spiritual fathers of the first decade in Pentecost.

Even before a return to the Bible, we might ask a searing question: "Do we want another Reformation in the Biblical style?" A second not-too-easy question is this: "Do we really want a Pentecostal visitation of the Spirit that will shatter our status quo spiritually, socially, and economically?" (Let me inject a stop signal here: Unless you can answer yes to both these questions, don't pass on.)

... Our rediscovery of Pentecost may bring these several changes within a church; or on the other hand, it is possible that the new wine might burst the old bottles.

Or, if, with our fetters off, we leap for joy-in heart if not on our feet-then out from the critics would come the shattering phrase, "They are drunk" We could hardly take that!

In the holy war against the devil and his works, can we be choosey in our obedience? Can we pray when we like? Can we seek the fulness of the Spirit when we are so disposed? No! If we are aware that now is the time for God to do a new thing, then precedents will be shattered.

Supernatural evidence has accompanied every revival. The external miracles have been greater in some operations than in others. But - and this is the core of the thing - signs and wonders were done; the rationalists and materialists were stirred, and at times silenced."

From John The Baptist And The Fire Of God, http://www.ravenhill.org/johnbaptist.htm :

"I believe the sign of God’s presence in a sanctuary is the pillar of fire. It’s the living vibration of an Eternal God who stands in the midst and does something you can’t explain. God is beyond definition. I cannot explain Him. I can experience Him. I know when He touches me as I am alone in the night, two or three o’clock in the morning. I know when His Living Presence comes into my office in a special wave of anointing.

I remember a night in Gillingham, east of London. We rented a church. I’ll tell you who came, if you’ve read "God’s Smuggler," he talks in there about a man called Uncle Hoppy. Well, Uncle Hoppy "hopped" in the meeting that day... He stayed with us for a half night of prayer.

I’ll never forget that night of prayer. There were surgings of blessings. There were times when God so came in power, I was afraid to open my eyes. We started praying at nine o’clock. Between one and two in the morning we were going out. There was an old lady at the back, sitting in a wheel-chair; a white-haired lady. "Oh, brother," she said, (she didn’t know any of our names,) "Wasn’t it wonderful!" I said, "It was." "One of the best... I’ve been in many prayer meetings, this was one of the greatest, most powerful. Wasn’t it wonderful?" I said, "Sure, I said that." "Did you feel anything different about one o’clock?" I said, "Yes, I felt a hand or something came… I felt a quickening in my spirit." "It was just then." "Just then what?" "You didn’t see it?" "No, no, I was with my head down praying." She said, "A tongue of fire came down on the head of the first, went to the next, went to the next, went to the next, right to the end. It was awesome." No wonder everyone of us felt a wonderful insurge of the Life of God... Or the power of God, define it as you will."

From More Than Conquerors, http://www.ravenhill.org/conqr.htm :

"All right. Let's come down a bit further in the chapter. Look at verse 22. "We know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together...

Will you notice what Paul says a little further down? In the next verse, verse 23: that we, not only creation, but we ourselves also have the first fruits of the Spirit. If you have the first fruits of the Spirit, here's the proof that you have it. That you groan within yourself. Do you? After the Holy Ghost cames (sic) in - and He knows the mind of God, and nobody does but the Spirit - the Spirit whispers the secret of God to you. Some nights you're like the woman who wants to get delivered of something. It isn't time, and you groan within yourself.

I'll tell you the secret of getting revival in the church. Find half a dozen people who know how to groan. You won't have the same church in a year.

You can't learn groaning except by the Holy Ghost. It's the school of the Holy Spirit...

Now, I've heard people say that to pray "with groanings," means praying in tongues. It's nothing of the kind. Because if it was, God would say so. It's beyond that. The greatest language of prayer has no vocabulary. The greatest prayers in the Bible have no words."
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Postby moose on Wed May 07, 2008 11:16 am

Maybe you ought to look a little deeper into Leonard Ravenhill (and even Tozer, his mentor) before you jump to conclusions about him

I must strongly concur with Trepid on this. You obviously have not formed your opinion of Ravenhill by listening to his sermons or reading his books. I don't know much about his son, but Leonard Ravenhill is one my favorite preachers.

Let's look at the allegations against him, shall we...

The book is listed on their (Prayer Foundation) “Top Ten Christian Books” page, which includes books by Richard Foster, Brother Lawrence, and other contemplatives.

Ravenhill was an inspiration to many, many preachers and Christians in general. Without arguing the list of contemplatives, I'm sure he inspired some false teachers, but many other preachers also list him as a positive influence such as Ray Comfort of Way of the Master, and many more.

Since I think association via book endorsement is a very poor thing to use to label someone as a false teacher, let's look at what Ravenhill said.

"Here in the United States we live like kings compared to millions in other lands. Our greatest danger is not even moral, bad as that is, but spiritual. Prophets, as I have said and written so often, are God's emergency men crisis hours. They thrive on perplexity, override adversity, defeat calamity, bring the new wine of the Kingdom to burst the withered wineskins of orthodoxy, and birth REVIVAL.
Apostolic purity, Apostolic piety, and Apostolic power are the need for today."

Please explain why you believe this statement to be unbiblical. I know he used the word apostolic, but if you look at his context, it is clear he is not talking about rich Peter Wagner declaring himself head of the church.

You also capitalized revival, do you believe revival is an unbiblical concept as well?

"We talk Apostolic doctrine but lack Apostolic deeds. We claim Apostolic faith but lack Apostolic fruit. Some trumpet Apostolic power but lack Apostolic poverty. Some claim Apostolic enduement but lack Apostolic accomplishment. We may have Apostolic vocabularies. Do we have Apostolic victories? Many claim Apostolic succession. Few, if any, dare claim Apostolic success!"

Again, much use of the word, apostolic (dirty word??). But again, look at context. Apostolic poverty? He clearly doesn't use the word the same way Wagner does.

"It seems to me that we can get back to Apostolic Christianity if we want to; or is the road too steep, the reproach too great, the price too high, the sacrifice too involved, and the stigma too unbearable to get up the hill of blessing?"

See my above statement. Again, use of the word "Apostolic" does not mean he is apostate. Look at his context.

"Everybody talks about the baptism. So what do you mean by the baptism? There is a baptism with the Holy Ghost and Fire. Not just with the Holy Ghost, but with Fire. When He comes He will "thoroughly purge His floor and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Which, again, can happen individually, or it can happen in a church, or it can come and work through a whole community, or it can work through a whole nation."

Again, I fail to see how this statement is unbiblical. I invite you to listen to his sermons and hear him tell the stories of whole communities being changed by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.

"God never, never intended His church to backslide. God never intended His church to function with anything less than Apostolic Christianity. And it's time to call the church to prayer…

Ok, last time I'll refer to this. How is using the word apostolic considered evidence of his apostasy??

Lord, these people far off there, they subdued whole kingdoms,

So, he's a dominionist, huh? Or is he an evangelist. I guess you'd have to look into him a little further to get an idea what he's talking about, but I'll give you a hint... Did the Lord tell us to go into ALL THE WORLD and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE? I am a world dominionist in this regard, the Lord gave us this planet for a mission field and we are to preach the gospel to every person on this Earth.

"Do we want another Reformation in the Biblical style?" A second not-too-easy question is this: "Do we really want a Pentecostal visitation of the Spirit that will shatter our status quo spiritually, socially, and economically?"

Is the power of Pentecost now unbiblical too?

Supernatural evidence has accompanied every revival.

Care to refute this?

signs and wonders were done

Is this unbiblical? Or did Jesus list some signs that would follow them that believe?

God is beyond definition. I cannot explain Him. I can experience Him.

Again, how is this unbiblical? Christianity is more than a mental assent and agreement. Doctrine is found in Scripture, but the application of doctrine is experiential. Again, Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship. It is an experience. He is the LIVING Word. I'm not saying the Bible is a living document in that it changes over time. That is false. Forever, O Lord, your Word is settled in Heaven. But that unchanging Word is alive and we EXPERIENCE it.

the Spirit whispers the secret of God to you.
I'll tell you the secret of getting revival in the church. Find half a dozen people who know how to groan.

So, here's how we know he's contemplative. But, buzzwords aside, is there something unscriptural about praying in the Spirit with groans? What about listening to what God would say to us? Biblical refutation? Anyone?

I know this is a long post, but I never expected to see Leonard Ravenhill listed in Apostasy Watch. His ministry publically available on sermonindex.com refutes these charges against him. But also I would like some biblical explanation as to why these quotes are biblically wrong.
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Postby chatty-kathi on Wed May 07, 2008 9:03 pm

Moose wrote:

You obviously have not formed your opinion of Ravenhill by listening to his sermons or reading his books.


The words I quoted are exact quotes made by Ravenhill.

Since I think association via book endorsement is a very poor thing to use to label someone as a false teacher, let's look at what Ravenhill said.


Did you read my entire posts? I gave more than adequate reason to be alarmed, starting with the possibility that they may have listed the book on their site because they thought that the theme of revival was something that fit into their belief system. I moved from that to finding their terms and concepts taught by Ravenhill. Then I found actual documents from the New Apostolic Reformation claiming both he and his son as part of their movements, even saying that Leonard Ravenhill was Steve Hill’s Pastor for three years, the evangelist at the Pensacola Revival!

Please explain why you believe this statement to be unbiblical. I know he used the word apostolic, but if you look at his context, it is clear he is not talking about rich Peter Wagner declaring himself head of the church.


Once again, did you read the posts in their entirety? His work is saturated with the terms I listed, all of which are used in the New Apostolic Reformation.

You also capitalized revival, do you believe revival is an unbiblical concept as well?


It is capitalized in the original.

But again, look at context. Apostolic poverty? He clearly doesn't use the word the same way Wagner does.


Are you sure about that? Like you said, look at context. What else did he say? “Many claim Apostolic succession. Few, if any, dare claim Apostolic success!” That doesn’t sound like a refutation to me. Peter Wagner teaches he is the self proclaimed chief apostle under Christ. Ravenhill not only doesn’t refute it, his charge is that few are successful!

Again, I fail to see how this statement is unbiblical. I invite you to listen to his sermons and hear him tell the stories of whole communities being changed by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.


You obviously have not studied the New Apostolic Reformation, because this is a key concept. This is called Dominionism, where they reclaim entire nations for Christ. Let me explain what the baptism of whole communities and nations means to a Dominionist in their own words. The key sentence is, “How do you baptise a whole nation? They have to die to the world-view they’re in.”

From Herescope, http://herescope.blogspot.com/search?q=baptize+nations we read:

“This quotation originated from an interview done by marketplace transformation "apostle" Os Hillman with Loren Cunningham, founder of Youth With a Mission (YWAM), who claims to have had a vision of 7 "spheres" of society conjointly with Bill Bright of Campus Crusade. In a previous post we challenged the credibility of this story, believing it to be revisionist history. One area of marketing emphasis is clearly youth. Another focus is the workplace.

Make no mistake about it. The agenda described here is to transform nations, however that comes to be defined. In this interview with Os Hillman, Loren Cunningham described this process in "rethinking" terms, saying that people need to "shift" their "world-view." Note the Dominionist theology inherent in this new worldview:

“Nations” is not individual, that’s corporate. And that’s where we have to see the seven spheres or the seven mountains, and see them as a corporate change of even the worldview that they are presently having to shift them into a world-view that will allow the nations to receive all that God has for them in salvation and in all the other blessings beyond salvation, and especially in discipling them to disciple the nations. And He said, “baptizing them, in the name of the son, of the father, and the Holy Ghost.” How do you baptise a whole nation? They have to die to the world-view they’re in. If it’s a Buddhist world-view, or a Hindu world-view, and be resurrected to the world-view of the Biblical, and that which is of Jesus’ world-view. . . . so that we can multiply the kingdom of God in every sphere of life. [emphases added]

How does one baptize a whole nation? And how can an entire nation can have their worldview shifted? Can it be by the simple powers of persuasion? As we've already seen in America, the psycho-social tools of manipulation are indeed effective at shifting people's theologies. But what other "tools" will be used to "shift them into a worldview. . . to "receive all that God has for them. . . ."?"

"Do we want another Reformation in the Biblical style?" A second not-too-easy question is this: "Do we really want a Pentecostal visitation of the Spirit that will shatter our status quo spiritually, socially, and economically?"


Everyone who is apostate is teaching a second (and even a third) reformation. The first reformation is what we call the Protestant Reformation. The second (and third) will overturn this reformation, leading everyone back to Rome.

Is the power of Pentecost now unbiblical too? - signs and wonders were done -Supernatural evidence has accompanied every revival. - God is beyond definition. I cannot explain Him. I can experience Him.


Once again, I wrote that these terms characterize this movement. They seek signs and wonders and an experience with God that is outside of Scripture.

the Spirit whispers the secret of God to you.

I'll tell you the secret of getting revival in the church. Find half a dozen people who know how to groan.

So, here's how we know he's contemplative. But, buzzwords aside, is there something unscriptural about praying in the Spirit with groans? What about listening to what God would say to us? Biblical refutation? Anyone?


Let’s read this in context:

"I'll tell you the secret of getting revival in the church. Find half a dozen people who know how to groan. You won't have the same church in a year.

You can't learn groaning except by the Holy Ghost. It's the school of the Holy Spirit...

Now, I've heard people say that to pray "with groanings," means praying in tongues. It's nothing of the kind. Because if it was, God would say so. It's beyond that. The greatest language of prayer has no vocabulary. The greatest prayers in the Bible have no words."

This is a description of contemplative prayer. We don’t learn groaning. In Romans 8:26, it says, “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groaning which cannot be uttered."

Let me say it again. It is the saturation of New Apostolic Reformation teachings coupled with the original documents from this group claiming Ravenhill as their own that exposes the truth.

His ministry publically available on sermonindex.com refutes these charges against him.


This is not true. You are putting your trust in men to do what God has told you to do, discern the truth for yourself.
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Postby moose on Thu May 08, 2008 7:10 am

The words I quoted are exact quotes made by Ravenhill.

True, but my point was that there was nothing wrong with what he said.

Did you read my entire posts?

Yes.

I gave more than adequate reason to be alarmed

I was alarmed... that "discernment ministries" would condemn Leonard Ravenhill without every listening to him preach or reading his books.

starting with the possibility that they may have listed the book on their site because they thought that the theme of revival was something that fit into their belief system.

We need to judge the theme of revival from the Bible, not on whether or not it fits in with Prayer Foundation's belief system.

Leonard Ravenhill was Steve Hill’s Pastor for three years, the evangelist at the Pensacola Revival

Yes, but Steve Hill, not Leonard Ravenhill, was the evangelist at the Pensacola Revival.

His work is saturated with the terms I listed, all of which are used in the New Apostolic Reformation.

So, if the NAR uses biblical terms, than we can no longer use them? IF the terms are unbiblical, please show me.

Are you sure about that? Like you said, look at context. What else did he say? “Many claim Apostolic succession. Few, if any, dare claim Apostolic success!” That doesn’t sound like a refutation to me. Peter Wagner teaches he is the self proclaimed chief apostle under Christ. Ravenhill not only doesn’t refute it, his charge is that few are successful!

If you listened to Ravenhill, you would have an idea about what he considers apostolic success. Apostolic success is great success in soul-winning. In this whole series of comparisons (apostolic doctrine vs. deeds, faith vs. fruit, trumpeting power vs. poverty, enduement vs. accomplishment, succession vs. success) he is clearly contrasting Wagner's version of apostolic vs. his idea of biblical apostolic. It couldn't be more clear.

This is called Dominionism, where they reclaim entire nations for Christ.

Oh, that we could reclaim all nations for Christ, one lost soul at a time. Isn't this the Great Commission that Christ gave us? Did he tell us to preach to the whole world or not?

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Everyone who is apostate is teaching a second (and even a third) reformation. The first reformation is what we call the Protestant Reformation. The second (and third) will overturn this reformation, leading everyone back to Rome.

Show me Ravenhill's endorsement of Roman Catholicism. I'd like to read it in his own words or hear it from his own mouth.

Once again, I wrote that these terms characterize this movement. They seek signs and wonders and an experience with God that is outside of Scripture.

Again, Leonard Ravenhill's ministry was often accompanied by signs and wonders, healings, yes. But mostly miraculous conviction of the Holy Spirit that brought repentance, breaking the hardest of hearts. Show me where healing the sick and raising the dead is outside of scripture. Again, we're not talking about barking and clucking or even laughing, we're talking about Ravenhill. Which signs are outside of Scripture?

Let me say it again. It is the saturation of New Apostolic Reformation teachings coupled with the original documents from this group claiming Ravenhill as their own that exposes the truth.

Again, that NAR claims these teachings doesn't make them true or false. That NAR claims Ravenhill as one of their own doesn't make him right or wrong. Let Ravenhill and his teachings be compared against the Scriptures. If others misuse his teachings, they are wrong, not him. There are many solid biblical preachers that claim Ravenhill as well.

You are putting your trust in men to do what God has told you to do, discern the truth for yourself.

I have listened to the man preach. I have read his writings. I have compared his teaching to scripture. It is you who seem to be making judgments based on what Steve Hill and Co. say about him and what discernment blogs say about him.

I believe this is important and would love to discuss these Ravenhill quotes in light of scripture. If he can be shown to be in error by looking at the scriptures, please share this with me.[/quote]
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Postby chatty-kathi on Thu May 08, 2008 10:07 am

Mods,

Can this be split into two threads, the new one being called, Brother Lawrence?

There are others who need to read this who will not find it in this thread.

Thanks,

Kathi
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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu May 08, 2008 10:14 am

chatty-kathi wrote:Mods,

Can this be split into two threads, the new one being called, Brother Lawrence?

There are others who need to read this who will not find it in this thread.

Thanks,

Kathi


Done!

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=39690
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Postby chatty-kathi on Thu May 08, 2008 10:28 am

Can you include Brandon's first post, which started the discussion?

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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu May 08, 2008 10:59 am

I'm sorry, I can't do it now. I think it'll be okay since the portion of brandon's you were replying to is quoted in your post. You're welcome to copy and paste brandon's post into the other thread if you'd like. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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Postby chatty-kathi on Thu May 08, 2008 12:04 pm

You're right, there really is no need to move it. I had copied enough that it makes sense.

Thanks!

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Postby chatty-kathi on Fri May 09, 2008 9:25 am

As I said, his teachings are saturated with New Apostolic Reformation terms, which I listed in the previous post.

starting with the possibility that they may have listed the book on their site because they thought that the theme of revival was something that fit into their belief system.

We need to judge the theme of revival from the Bible, not on whether or not it fits in with Prayer Foundation's belief system.


The NAR redefines revival, so I needed to determine if Leonard was talking about true revival or the revival that the NAR teaches. Let's put this back into context, because that statement was only the beginning of my search. As I said, I at first considered that it was on their site because they resonated with the theme of revival. Then, I said:

I gave more than adequate reason to be alarmed, starting with the possibility that they may have listed the book on their site because they thought that the theme of revival was something that fit into their belief system. I moved from that to finding their terms and concepts taught by Ravenhill. Then I found actual documents from the New Apostolic Reformation claiming both he and his son as part of their movements, even saying that Leonard Ravenhill was Steve Hill’s Pastor for three years, the evangelist at the Pensacola Revival!


Leonard Ravenhill was Steve Hill’s Pastor for three years, the evangelist at the Pensacola Revival

Yes, but Steve Hill, not Leonard Ravenhill, was the evangelist at the Pensacola Revival.


You are missing the significance. This group claims him as one of their own here and in other places.

The NAR is leading people back to Rome by proposing new reformations and by bringing back the teachings of contemplative prayer, where they will be told that we are all one, that we are all a part of God, so therefore, we are God and that He is in everything and everyone.

So, if the NAR uses biblical terms, than we can no longer use them? IF the terms are unbiblical, please show me.


As I said before, Satan always mixes truth with error. The point is that they redefine Biblical terms to mean something different than the Bible intends in order to fit their belief system. It would be ludicrous to say that, therefore, we can no longer use the same terms.

There is adequate information on this board and in other places for anyone seeking the truth about these terms.
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Postby moose on Fri May 09, 2008 9:51 am

so I needed to determine if Leonard was talking about true revival or the revival that the NAR teaches.

That's a good idea. How about listening to Ravenhill and hear which he was talking about.

Then I found actual documents from the New Apostolic Reformation claiming both he and his son as part of their movements

Did you find documents where Ravenhill claimed to be one of them? If so, you'd have something compelling. Until then, you are condemning a biblical preacher on nothing more than hearsay.

It would be ludicrous to say that, therefore, we can no longer use the same terms.

So you agree that using these terms doesn't alone indict anyone? Yet, Ravenhill's use of the term apostolic was used to provide evidence against him even when it context he was clearly defending the biblical term against Wagner's misuse.

I am not against warning people about false teachers. I just think we should show that someone really is a false teacher first. This means that they are teaching or taught something that is false. So, does Ravenhill fit that description? I want you (or someone else) to show me his error using only two sources: direct quotes from Ravenhill and the Word of God. Until you can do that, then I absolutely and strongly object to the unfounded false accusations against Leonard Ravenhill.
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Postby mark s on Fri May 09, 2008 9:55 am

moose wrote: to show me his error using only two sources: direct quotes from Ravenhill and the Word of God.


I think this is a very good standard to follow. Its one thing to gather information from third party sources, and that can get us pointed in a direction, but I fully agree that we need to be able to verify any conclusions we reach from a person's own words, taken from their own sources.
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Postby Trepid on Fri May 09, 2008 11:27 am

chatty-kathi,

Have you considered the possibility that those apostate groups suggest reading Leonard Ravenhill because he uses words which they have redefined?

Merely the fact that he uses the words apostle or reformation does not mean that he is implying the same definition that they have now attached to those words. Clearly, if you knew anything about what he really taught you would know that he does not use their definitions. Just listen to what he has to say about the people who were preaching while he was alive. Jim Baker is a perfect example: he had scathing words for that man and others like him.

Also, just look at who it was that he admired the most. You can't listen to three sermons without him bringing up John Wesley, or David Brainerd.

Now to paint Leonard Ravenhill as a heretic you're going to have to throw A.W. Tozer in. After all, he wrote the forward to “Why Revival Tarries”!

On top of that you're going to have to brand the men who studied under him and worked closely with him. Men the likes of Paul Washer, Keith Green and David Wilkerson.

Before running off to more 'conclusions', just go to the website I posted above and listen to a few of his sermons. Sermonindex.net even has a lengthy video interview with him: A Man of God
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Postby chatty-kathi on Fri May 09, 2008 4:45 pm

Mark wrote:

to show me his error using only two sources: direct quotes from Ravenhill and the Word of God.


I think this is a very good standard to follow. Its one thing to gather information from third party sources, and that can get us pointed in a direction, but I fully agree that we need to be able to verify any conclusions we reach from a person's own words, taken from their own sources.


If you had read my posts in their entirety, you would have seen that this is exactly what I did. If you believe that I have not presented enough evidence, that is one thing, and you have a right to your opinion. But this accusation is unwarranted, and I find this comment very disappointing.

I quoted extensively from both Ravenhill’s sermons and articles that I found on his website, and I gave the links to everything quoted. Have you checked all of the quotes out for yourself? You told me that you like to personally check references from the source in another thread.
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Postby mark s on Fri May 09, 2008 5:01 pm

Hi Kathi,

Perhaps I misunderstood what I what I was reading. I'll go back and re-read the thread.

I apologize in advance if I am mistaken. I want you to know I very much appreciate the research that you perform, and your adherance to true doctrine.


Love in Christ!
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Postby chatty-kathi on Fri May 09, 2008 6:01 pm

Moose,

You have the right to disagree with me. But you continually quote me out of context.

It would be ludicrous to say that, therefore, we can no longer use the same terms.


So you agree that using these terms doesn't alone indict anyone? Yet, Ravenhill's use of the term apostolic was used to provide evidence against him even when it context he was clearly defending the biblical term against Wagner's misuse.


I already answered that:

So, if the NAR uses biblical terms, than we can no longer use them? IF the terms are unbiblical, please show me.


As I said before, Satan always mixes truth with error. The point is that they redefine Biblical terms to mean something different than the Bible intends in order to fit their belief system. It would be ludicrous to say that, therefore, we can no longer use the same terms.


First, in context, it was not just his use of the word apostolic. I wrote:

In these quotes, we see him discuss New Apostolic Reformation teachings, including Apostolic Ministry, the new wineskins, the new reformation, revival, signs and wonders, God doing a "new thing", Dominionism, even baptism of whole nations.


Secondly, there are no apostles today. He acknowledged that many claim apostolic succession, which would include Peter Wagner and the Pope. But rather than refute their claim to succession, he said that few are successful! Here is my quote again:

"We talk Apostolic doctrine but lack Apostolic deeds. We claim Apostolic faith but lack Apostolic fruit. Some trumpet Apostolic power but lack Apostolic poverty. Some claim Apostolic enduement but lack Apostolic accomplishment. We may have Apostolic vocabularies. Do we have Apostolic victories? Many claim Apostolic succession. Few, if any, dare claim Apostolic success!"


I believe we just need to agree to disagree agreeably, as I see no point in continuing this.
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Postby chatty-kathi on Fri May 09, 2008 6:23 pm

Trepid said:

Have you considered the possibility that those apostate groups suggest reading Leonard Ravenhill because he uses words which they have redefined?


I have already answered that:

Did you read my entire posts? I gave more than adequate reason to be alarmed, starting with the possibility that they may have listed the book on their site because they thought that the theme of revival was something that fit into their belief system. I moved from that to finding their terms and concepts taught by Ravenhill. Then I found actual documents from the New Apostolic Reformation claiming both he and his son as part of their movements, even saying that Leonard Ravenhill was Steve Hill’s Pastor for three years, the evangelist at the Pensacola Revival!


That was my first thought, as shown above. Then I went to his website and quoted sermons and articles and gave the link to each. Lastly, I was shocked when I found actual documents online from those at the Pensacola Revival showing a clear connection to "the Ravenhill family", saying that Leonard Ravenhill was Steve Hill's Pastor. This is a clear connection that it was not a coincidence that Leonard Ravenhill taught so many NAR teachings.

Merely the fact that he uses the words apostle or reformation does not mean that he is implying the same definition that they have now attached to those words.


And I already answered that:

In these quotes, we see him discuss New Apostolic Reformation teachings, including Apostolic Ministry, the new wineskins, the new reformation, revival, signs and wonders, God doing a "new thing", Dominionism, even baptism of whole nations.


I am sure there is much good to be found in his works. Unfortunately, I think there were some things that went undetected that were not.
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Postby mark s on Sat May 10, 2008 3:47 pm

Hi Kathi,

Ok, I’ve gone back and re-read this thread. I think that most of the quotes given from Ravenhill don’t come right out and say what others have said of him. I don’t see where he himself supports “apostolic succession”, or monastic orders, the Pensacola Revival, or Steve Hill. He is claimed by the NAR, but does he claim them? I think there is much he said that is true, and well spoken. There are some things that are ambiguous, or borderline, and are cause for concern.

For instance, “You claim apostolic succession, but do you have apostolic success?” This neither supports nor denies apostolic succession. It deflects that question until we first answer, do you have the fruit, or the results, an apostle should have? Without answering the second, the first is moot.

But I agree, he does teach what we would normally call contemplative prayer, as well as spiritual “manifestations” which are outside of the teaching of the New Testament. I fear that I didn’t read this as carefully as I should have.

I think this is probibly a good summation:

I am sure there is much good to be found in his works. Unfortunately, I think there were some things that went undetected that were not.
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Postby brandon on Sun May 11, 2008 5:47 am

It's pretty clear that unless the great history of intercessory prayer is explored, that many of the great revivals will be labeled "contemplative". I present to you part of an article about Father Nash, Finney's intercessor.

The best-known revival of this period in American history was that which occurred in Rochester, New York. Over 100,000 were considered to have been soundly converted during those meetings. Nash and Clary teamed up for the praying with the assistance of others. These two men were so similar in their praying that one is often described to explain the other. Such fervent praying in agony of soul brought sights that may seem strange to our eyes today. Our gentle prayers accomplish so little, but then they cost us so little. Finney wrote:

"I have never known a person sweat blood; but I have known a person pray till the blood started from his nose. And I have known persons pray till they were all wet with perspiration, in the coldest weather in winter. I have known persons pray for hours, till their strength was all exhausted with the agony of their minds. Such prayers prevailed with God. This agony in prayer was prevalent in Jonathan Edwards' day, in the revivals which then took place."

During the Rochester meetings there are several accounts of these two men in deep agony of soul while praying day and night. Some accounts name Nash, some Clary, others both. It seems they were together in fasting and prayer much of the time, weeping and crying out to God. Sometimes they lay prostrate without strength to stand up. Their concern over sinners being lost brought great stress to their minds and souls. They groaned under the load, they risked health and gave up comforts that the battle of the heavenlies might be won. Sometimes they "would writhe and groan in agony" over souls. God honored their burden-bearing and sent revival. Privately they prayed and publicly God answered. "Practically everyone in the city was converted. The only theater in the city was converted into a livery stable, the only circus into a soap and candle factory, and the grog shops (bars and taverns) were closed."

Oswald J. Smith explains the importance of such strivings in prayer during Finney's ministry:

"He always preached with the expectation of seeing the Holy Spirit suddenly outpoured. Until this happened little or nothing was accomplished. But the moment the Spirit fell upon the people, Finney had nothing else to do but point them to the Lamb of God. Thus he lived and wrought for years in an atmosphere of revival."


http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/daniel-na ... rayer.html

THAT is the type of prayer that Ravenhill talks about.

Ravenhill also talks about his contemporary, mentor, and friend A.W. Tozer. Tozer would sometimes spend 4 hours on the floor in his office in the presence of the Lord groaning and weeping. I'd say the real problem here is that we don't practice the same praying as the early church and the great godly Jews did.

Here are some examples:
12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

9After they had eaten and drunk in Shiloh, Hannah rose. Now Eli the priest was sitting on the seat beside the doorpost of the temple of the LORD. 10She was deeply distressed and prayed to the LORD and wept bitterly. 11And she vowed a vow and said, "O LORD of hosts, if you will indeed look on the affliction of your servant and remember me and not forget your servant, but will give to your servant a son, then I will give him to the LORD all the days of his life, and no razor shall touch his head."

12As she continued praying before the LORD, Eli observed her mouth. 13Hannah was speaking in her heart; only her lips moved, and her voice was not heard. Therefore Eli took her to be a drunken woman.

The priest through she was DRUNK because of how she prayed! And yet God answered her prayer with the man that God's word came to as a boy.

4As soon as I heard these words I sat down and wept and mourned for days, and I continued fasting and praying before the God of heaven. (Nehemiah)

3Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. (Daniel)

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Jesus)

31And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness. (Apostles)

2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off. (assembly of Antioch)

5So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church.

What happened after they prayed earnestly? God sent an angel to release Peter miraculously!

Now, scripturally speaking, where do we see this idea of groanings talked about? How about the amazing letter to Romans?

23And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And He who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And then there's Jude, who talks about "praying in the Holy Spirit".

Let's not mistake the Spirit's praying in us with groanings and being in so much awe of the Lord God Almighty that you lay in His presence for hours with this self-centered contemplative deception. Perhaps if we sought after the Lord in these ways, we'd be able to be more discerning and not so easily sucked into these false movements. Perhaps we should learn more about what it means to "pray in the Holy Spirit".
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Postby mark s on Mon May 12, 2008 8:35 am

If you think that’s unusual, then look at verse 26 in which he says, "Likewise the Spirit helpeth our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with GROANINGS that cannot be uttered." And verse 27, "the Spirit... because maketh intercession...accordiong to the will of God."

Now, I've heard people say that to pray "with groanings," means praying in tongues. It's nothing of the kind. Because if it was, God would say so. It's beyond that.
The greatest language of prayer has no vocabulary.
The greatest prayers in the Bible have no words.


http://www.ravenhill.org/conqr.htm

The Holy Spirit's prayers of interession are not our prayers, nor do we either make them our prayers, or make them happen at all, by our learning to do so.

To "pray with groanings" is something the Holy Spirit, not ourselves, does, at least, in this passage. And I don't know any other passage where "praying with groanings" is taught.

Ravenhill states, "The greatest language of prayer has no vocabulary. The greatest prayers in the Bible have no words." If indeed this is true, its true of the Holy Spirit's prayers on our behalf, not our own.

We are never taught to "learn to pray without words".

He erroneously gives the example of Hannah, who prayed without audible words, but Scripture is clear:

1 Samuel 1:13 "And Hannah was speaking in her heart; only, her lips moved; but her voice could not be heard. So Eli thought that she was drunk." She was speaking in her heart.

I'll leave it for others who know the man's teaching better to interpret the significance for this, but he makes an unfounded case for "learning to pray without words", which is not taught in Scripture.
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Postby moose on Mon May 12, 2008 10:14 am

To "pray with groanings" is something the Holy Spirit, not ourselves, does, at least, in this passage. And I don't know any other passage where "praying with groanings" is taught.


Well, it's clear that the Holy Spirit is the One doing the groanings, but it is not clear to me that He doesn't use our voice to do it.

As for other passages, I don't see praying with groanings taught, but I do see praying without understanding taught.

1 Corinthians 14:2
or he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


Paul is describing that it is better to prophesy in an understandable language when meeting as a group, but he does not condemn praying in an unknown tongue. Instead, he encourages it. Paul says we should do both...

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Corinthians 14:17
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


Though Paul expresses a preference for common language in group settings so that others can benefit and learn, it is clear that praying in words or sounds that we don't understand is both biblically allowed and biblically encouraged.
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Postby mark s on Mon May 12, 2008 10:22 am

moose wrote:Well, it's clear that the Holy Spirit is the One doing the groanings, but it is not clear to me that He doesn't use our voice to do it.


I agree with this. But I'm still thinking its not something that we "learn to do", and having "learned" it, that we do it of ourselves. This seems to me to be what Ravenhill is advocating.

As for other passages, I don't see praying with groanings taught, but I do see praying without understanding taught.
Again, I agree. But even praying in an unknown tongue is praying with words, we just don't know what they are. And Ravenhill specifically says that this isn't what he means.

Paul is describing that it is better to prophesy in an understandable language when meeting as a group, but he does not condemn praying in an unknown tongue. Instead, he encourages it. Paul says we should do both...
Again, agreed! :grin:

Though Paul expresses a preference for common language in group settings so that others can benefit and learn, it is clear that praying in words or sounds that we don't understand is both biblically allowed and biblically encouraged.


If by sounds you mean those unknown languages, I agree with this, but I thing Ravenhill's writing does not.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby moose on Mon May 12, 2008 10:38 am

If by sounds you mean those unknown languages, I agree with this, but I thing Ravenhill's writing does not.


I do mean unknown languages, but because they are unknown they may just be sounds to us. As for Ravenhill, I'll review his writings. I'd always understood him to mean allowing the Holy Spirit to pray through us, and not that we ourselves conciously making the groans.

Perhaps that's not what he meant though. Maybe its what I assumed he meant... I'll give it another look.
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Postby chatty-kathi on Mon May 12, 2008 2:52 pm

I think it would be beneficial if we define contemplative prayer and spiritual formation. From Lighthouse Trails Research (many other sites discusss it, but all define it in the same way), we read:

definition: contemplative spirituality: a belief system that uses ancient mystical practices to induce altered states of consciousness (the silence) and is rooted in mysticism and the occult but often wrapped in Christian terminology; the premise of contemplative spirituality is pantheistic (God is all) and panentheistic (God is in all).

spiritual formation: a movement that has provided a platform and a channel through which contemplative prayer is entering the church. Find spiritual formation being used, and in nearly every case you will find contemplative spirituality. In fact, contemplative spirituality is the heartbeat of the spiritual formation movement.

From this link, http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/cp.htm , we read:

Contemplative Prayer—A mystical prayer practice that leads one into the "silence" but in actuality leads away from God.

Definition of Contemplative Prayer: As it is expressed in a modern day movement is mystically (i.e. based on a technique or method) in which one empties the mind of thought through repetition, usually of a word or phrase or focus on the breath. In this case the silence would be an absence of thought, all thought.

The purpose of contemplative prayer is to enter an altered state of consciousness in order to find one's true self, thus finding God. This true self relates to the belief that man is basically good. Proponents of contemplative prayer teach that all human beings have a divine center and that all, not just born again believers, should practice contemplative prayer.

“Contemplative consciousness," says [Thomas] Merton, is "a trans-cultural, trans-religious, trans-formed consciousness … it can shine through this or that system, religious or irreligious"(Thoughts on the East, p.34)

"Sparked by Eastern meditative techniques, today's version of centering prayer is bent on stilling the mind."

A Quiet Revolution—JODI MAILANDER FARRELL

Listen to What Contemplatives Have To Say About This Form of Prayer and the Contemplative Lifestyle.

"For Fr. Bede, being universal meant to be centered and grounded. He generated this universality of heart through his daily practice of meditation and contemplative prayer, and this opened him ever more to the myths, symbols and teachings of the other great religions of the world."

Man, Monk, Mystic by Pascaline Coff, O.S.B. Speaking of Bede Griffiths.

"This understanding of the unity of the human family is central to Christianity. Our spiritual journey, especially contemplative prayer, together with its practices for daily life, are processes of becoming aware of just how profound that unity is with God, ourselves, other people, other living beings, the earth, and all creation."

Thomas Keating in The Transformation of Suffering

"... beyond our methods and understanding is an ultimate reality that is open to all people regardless of their religious traditions. The overwhelming sense of this groundbreaking conference was the unifying force of a contemplative prayer practice."

Jena Hatchett WCCM 2001

Did Jesus instruct his followers to empty their minds through contemplative prayer?

On the contrary He said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your MIND." Matthew 22:37 [NKJV]"

Again, from Lighthouse Trails, some of the terms, considered “inside terms”, include:

Labyrinths; Enneagrams; Prayer Stations; Breath Prayers; Jesus Candles; The Jesus Prayer; Lectio Divina; Taize; Palms Up, Palms Down; Yoga; The Silence; Sacred Space; Ancient Prayer Practices; A Thin Place; Divine Mystery; Spiritual Direction; Ignation Contemplation; Contemplative; Centering; Centering Prayer; Prayer of the Heart; Dark Night of the Soul; Practicing the Presence; Divine Center; Inner Light; Mantra; Awareness of Being; Slow Prayer; Being in the Present Moment; Beyond Words; Spiritual Disciplines; Spiritual Formation.
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Postby chatty-kathi on Mon May 12, 2008 2:58 pm

I read the referenced article on Nash. In regards to groaning, we read:

"Often Nash would not attend meetings, and while Finney was preaching Nash was praying for the Spirit's outpouring upon him. Finney stated, 'I did the preaching altogether, and brother Nash gave himself up almost continually to prayer.' Often while the evangelist preached to the multitudes, Nash in some adjoining house would be upon his face in an agony of prayer, and God answered in the marvels of His grace. With all due credit to Mr. Finney for what was done, it was the praying men who held the ropes. The tears they shed, the groans they uttered are written in the book of the chronicles of the things of God."

Contemplative prayer is entering into an altered state of consciousness through repetition. It can be repetition of a word, a phrase, even focusing on your breath. The goal, through practice, is to enter “the silence”,

I did not see that element in the referenced article. Rather, it sounded more like an intensity in prayer, which also included the shedding of tears, than wordless prayer.

The use of groaning in conjunction with praying to petition God is not the issue. Let’s look again at how Ravenhill described groaning:

Now, I've heard people say that to pray "with groanings," means praying in tongues. It's nothing of the kind. Because if it was, God would say so. It's beyond that. The greatest language of prayer has no vocabulary. The greatest prayers in the Bible have no words."

Scripture says in Romans 8:26b, “…but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered”, and in v. 27, “And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”

Regarding our groaning, we read in Romans 8:22 & 23, “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” It says nothing about this being a wordless prayer, since all of creation is also doing this.

From Matthew Henry’s Commentary, we see that we, as well as creation, are longing together. We are not both praying within ourselves, but groaning, longing for release from the bondage of sin:

“By the creature here, we understand the whole frame of nature, the whole creation… When man sinned, the ground was cursed for man’s sake, and with it all the creatures… The creatures groan and travail in pain together under this vanity and corruption… Sin is a burden to the whole creation… The creature shall be delivered from this bondage into the glorious liberty of the children of God… This the whole creation longs for; and it may serve as a reason why now a good man should be merciful to his beast.”

“As to the matter of our requests, we know not what to ask. We are shortsighted… He (God) will hear and answer those desires which we want words to express. He knows what we have need of before we ask.. But how shall we learn to ask according to his will. Why, the Spirit will teach us that.”

The article helps us to contrast the two types of prayers. It is possible Nash also participated in this type of prayer, entering an altered state of consciousness, but the article doesn’t indicate it. We can groan, we can cry, and we can sweat drops of blood, as we bring our petitions before God.

From the article, we can be inspired in our own prayer life:

"An organized and systematic list of people and matters to pray for is a common tool of effective prayer warriors. Preparation of our case, listing our requests, and thoroughness in prayer help establish a meaningful ministry. It also helps us rejoice in written evidence of answers to prayer."

"Nash used such a method:

Nash had remarkable power in prayer and was in the habit of making a 'praying list' of persons for whose conversion he daily prayed in secret. . . . The answers to his prayers sometimes seemed almost miraculous, for he did not confine his 'list' to those whom he thought might be reached by the revival, but the most obdurate and unlikely cases were made the subjects of prayer, with results that were truly astounding."

"Finney said of Nash and his prayer list, "Praying with him and hearing him pray in meetings, I found that his gift of prayer was wonderful and his faith almost miraculous." Nash would pray for these not only daily, but for some many times a day…"

"Nash had great confidence in a God who heard and answered prayer."
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Postby JABova on Mon May 12, 2008 5:27 pm

chatty-kathi wrote:Contemplative Prayer—A mystical prayer practice that leads one into the "silence" but in actuality leads away from God.

Definition of Contemplative Prayer: As it is expressed in a modern day movement is mystically (i.e. based on a technique or method) in which one empties the mind of thought through repetition, usually of a word or phrase or focus on the breath. In this case the silence would be an absence of thought, all thought.

The purpose of contemplative prayer is to enter an altered state of consciousness in order to find one's true self, thus finding God. This true self relates to the belief that man is basically good. Proponents of contemplative prayer teach that all human beings have a divine center and that all, not just born again believers, should practice contemplative prayer.

“Contemplative consciousness," says [Thomas] Merton, is "a trans-cultural, trans-religious, trans-formed consciousness … it can shine through this or that system, religious or irreligious"(Thoughts on the East, p.34)

"Sparked by Eastern meditative techniques, today's version of centering prayer is bent on stilling the mind."


When I was a teen in the very early 70s' a book call Three Magic Word was presented to me by some friend whom I held in high esteem (for all the wrong reasons). It turned out that the book was a series of 12 meditations where the last meditation ended with the three magic words, "I am god." This book was extremely well written and had some very persuasive arguments about the universal consciousness. Interestingly enough I started reading about TM and found that it was exactly the same thing, except the meditations were designed to completely empty your mind. Several years later I met a guy who had become a Buddhist during a tour in Japan tried who tried to introduce me to his religion and showed me the "power" of chanting, again designed to numb and empty your mind. It was all the same thing, again repackaged in different forms.

Thankfully I had a grandmother who was a real prayer warrior. She would say in our home when I was a child for several weeks on end. But every night after dinner (but before Lawrence Welk) she would sit in the corner and open her little prayer book and pray, pray for everything and everyone, probably for an hour. While we never really heard any words, we would watch her lips form the words for what seemed to us like an eternity.

I remain convinced that it was through the prayers of my grandmother that I was eventually led back to the Lord. I could tell you stories about the things that should have happened that didn't and vice-versa again I'm certain were because of the diligent intercessory prayer of my grandmother.

Sadly we see these counterfeit prayer movements advertised in the media but we never hear much about what real prayer is and can do. Even in my church we still pray (United Methodist) over everything. And while we always spend a moment in silence, it is a time for personal reflection or requests that you don't feel comfortable taking before the congregation.

Prayer is such an important part of what the Lord taught us to do that it is no wonder that the enemy is determined to spoil it if that were possible. There is only one response, we too must pray and study the Word with all our heart.

-Joe
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Isaiah 55:11-12 (KJV)
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon May 12, 2008 7:43 pm

Thanks for sharing that, Joe, and for reinforcing the importance of prayer.
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Postby brandon on Tue May 13, 2008 5:39 am

Contemplative prayer is entering into an altered state of consciousness through repetition. It can be repetition of a word, a phrase, even focusing on your breath. The goal, through practice, is to enter “the silence”,


And I can accurately say that, having read three of his books and listening to numerous sermons, he does NOT support this practice of "the silence," and that the type of prayer he is talking about is akin to the story of Hannah in 1 Samuel, where her soul was so distressed, and she prayed so intensely that Eli thought she was drunk.

What is the purpose of this praying? It is intercession for the lost. Leonard Ravenhill's emphasis has always been on repentance, the blood of Christ, the work done on the Cross, the work done by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, and revival fires being once again brought to Western churches.

His point in "praying without words" is that we are so overwhelmed and distressed by the world around us that we, like Father Nash, pray with groanings and weeping and in agony. That doesn't mean we spend hours in wordless prayer (although A.W. Tozer spent hours laying on his office floor, wordless and in awe of God's glory) but that sometimes the deepest part of intercessory prayer are when we are so distressed that we can only groan and weep.

You simply cannot draw a line between the prayer that Ravenhill is referring to and contemplative prayer. They are two completely different and separate topics. One is filled with compassion for the lost and a desire for God to be glorified; the other is empty, with a desire for a selfish spiritual experience. He does not advocate "the silence," and if you actually read him or listened to him, you'd know this.

While the concerns about contemplative prayer and the New Age are pressing and legitimate, I caution any and all believers to be wary of getting caught up with "witch hunts." There's a whole lot of people that are running "discernment ministries" that have no spiritual gift of discernment, just a fleshly propensity for attacking anything they view to be wrong. [/b]
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Postby chatty-kathi on Tue May 13, 2008 7:53 am

Mods,

Could I ask for another split to, Are There Apostles Today?

It starts Sat. May 10 with Brandon through Rich, leave Mark's 3:47 p.m. post, but include Mark's next one, then pick up Rich's Sun. May 11 one, and my post and Moose’s posts on Mon. May 12.

I think it would be helpful in light of the "healing revival" going on.

Thanks again in advance,

Kathi
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Postby mark s on Tue May 13, 2008 8:25 am

chatty-kathi wrote:Mods,

Could I ask for another split to, Are There Apostles Today?

It starts Sat. May 10 with Brandon through Rich, leave Mark's 3:47 p.m. post, but include Mark's next one, then pick up Rich's Sun. May 11 one, and my post and Moose’s posts on Mon. May 12.

I think it would be helpful in light of the "healing revival" going on.

Thanks again in advance,

Kathi


You can find the Apostle's thread Here.

God bless!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby chatty-kathi on Tue May 13, 2008 9:58 am

Mark,

Can you make the new thread accessible from the Apostasy Watch forum?

Kathi
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Postby mark s on Tue May 13, 2008 10:21 am

I don't think there is a way to do that, except from within a thread, as I've already done.

Sorry!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby chatty-kathi on Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 pm

Brandon said:

He does not advocate "the silence," and if you actually read him or listened to him, you'd know this.


If you had read all of my posts, you would see that this statement is false. The bulk of the information (and I posted a lot), all came from Ravenhill’s website. It was his own articles and sermons, of which I spent many, many hours pouring through.

You are free to disagree with me. However, do not accuse me of not actually reading him, as this is untrue, and I will not debate anyone who tries to misrepresent me.

Remember the number one rule is to do everything in love, and I don’t see this as very loving!!!
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