Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

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Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

Postby stevesherri on Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:32 pm

I have mentioned in Sunday school and to a few friends about Solana and the ENP, and have received virtually no response other than a little scoffing. I admit that maybe the ENP could be renewed 7 yrs from now for another 7 yrs, and maybe Solana's successor could be the anti-Christ. People do recognize the world mood against Israel, and the world quest for nukes as a sign of the end, but little else.

http://www.rapturealert.com/2006/121506 ... afety2.asp

clip>
Why I don't believe the European Neighbourhood Policy is the peace covenant of Daniel 9:27

It seems that every day someone is asking me about the European Neighbourhood Policy potentially being the peace covenant of Antichrist, to which I typically respond that I don't believe it is. Why? Because if it is, as I reason with those who wish to hear my opinion on the topic, why do we continue to see everyone scrambling to try and come up with a plan to bring "peace and safety" to the Middle East? If, as it has been suggested by some, the ENP will be confirmed with many on 1-1-07 in fulfillment of Daniel 9:27, why doesn't anyone believe it's THE plan for Middle East peace who is actually working toward reaching that seemingly unreachable goal?

Here's how the European Neighbourhood Polcy is described on the front page of its site (emphasis added mine):

Since the 2004 enlargement, relations with our neighbours have become the EU’s main external priority. Through the European Neighbourhood Policy, we aim to avoid new dividing lines between the enlarged EU and our neighbours to the east and on the southern and eastern shores of the Mediterranean. We invite these neighbours, on the basis of a mutual commitment to common values, to move beyond existing cooperation to deeper economic and political, cultural and security cooperation - strengthening stability, security and well-being for all concerned. The new feature is that we go beyond cooperation to include economic integration, for those ready and able.

What I typically tell people concerning the ENP is that I don't dismiss its significance out-of-hand, but view it more as an economic bargaining chip the EU can utilize to achieve its goals in the Middle East if it chooses to do so.

As we look at the words of Yossi Beilin in the BBC report, he doesn't mention the ENP by name but he strongly implies that the EU should use its economic relationship with both Israel and the Palestinians as leverage to achieve Middle East peace. This is how I feel the ENP could effectively play a large role in the future fulfillment of Bible prophecy concerning the advent of Antichrist, potentially being the device that not-so-gently nudges the Israelis and Palestinians toward peacemaking.

end clip>

I wanted to hear more arguments why others doubt this is not it.
I don't think enough nudging is going to take place in the next ....12 days.

Steve
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Postby stevesherri on Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:39 pm

Just want to add that I have good suspicion that this IS the beginning of 7-years, but if anyone can quantify that doubt I would like to hear that, besides the link posted earlier, and what I've heard so often, "Oh that's ridiculous."

Please don't take this as an offense, Herb.
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Postby BeTheMoon on Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:11 pm

...why do we continue to see everyone scrambling to try and come up with a plan to bring "peace and safety" to the Middle East?

Satan is too crafty. A single peace plan mingled with others is perfect concealment from those belonging to God.


view [ENP] more as an economic bargaining chip the EU can utilize to achieve its goals in the Middle East if it chooses to do so.

He who has the gold makes the rules.


Steve wrote:I don't think enough nudging is going to take place in the next ....12 days.

You could be right, but you could also be wrong. Remember in the summer when the Israel/Lebanon fighting broke out? One day was perfectly normal then the next day was utterly insane. Situations can change in a heartbeat.
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Postby Final Trumpet on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:36 pm

I too have had been told that satan could be just setting up a deception to think it is the covenant due to all the others that were thought to be the AC and the covenant. I don't give satan that much credit even though he is a crafty dragon.

Now, how I feel is that most of our Christian brethren are too caught up in this world and this life. They are unwilling to see the times due to several reasons. Either wanting to live this life out, or too afraid they willl fall for something or especially that they have been taught the way the end is supposed to be and will not deviate from that teaching.

This is sad because they are missing the blessing of watching for the Lord's return and unfortunately becoming the scoffers they are not meaning to become.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


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Postby nonymouse on Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:51 pm

Imho, the evidence is practically screaming that the ENP is the prophesied 7-year "covenant with many."

Blessings
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Postby Finaldash on Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:03 pm

Stevesherri said:
I admit that maybe the ENP could be renewed 7 yrs from now for another 7 yrs, and maybe Solana's successor could be the anti-Christ.


This is what Herb said regarding this last 7 yr ENP
What I meant by "last seven-year term" is the coming EU budget term will be the last one that's for seven years. The next budget terms are to be only for five-years.

Herb
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Postby nonymouse on Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:18 pm

Edit by author.
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Postby watch2000 on Sun Dec 24, 2006 3:27 pm

I am starting to lean toward the AC being muslim. But the ENP,solona,EU is still a very good possibilty.
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sun Dec 24, 2006 5:50 pm

watch2000 wrote:I am starting to lean toward the AC being muslim. But the ENP,solona,EU is still a very good possibilty.



I don't think he will due to this verse:

Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

This passage indicates that the AC will not regard God, Jesus, or any of the false gods out there. He regards only himself. However, on a side note, Solana fits the description because he has much disregard for religion (I think he has a secular outlook since he was once a proponent of socialism).
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


Days of Noah

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, & insist on their literal interpretations, in the midst of much clamor & opposition."
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Postby watch2000 on Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:09 am

Final Trumpet wrote:
watch2000 wrote:I am starting to lean toward the AC being muslim. But the ENP,solona,EU is still a very good possibilty.



I don't think he will due to this verse:

Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

This passage indicates that the AC will not regard God, Jesus, or any of the false gods out there. He regards only himself. However, on a side note, Solana fits the description because he has much disregard for religion (I think he has a secular outlook since he was once a proponent of socialism).



Well the fact that the AC is called the "Assyrian" is what has got me thinking.So im still leaning towards hin coming out of the middle east muslim or not.
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Postby jereome on Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:52 pm

Final Trumpet wrote:
watch2000 wrote:I am starting to lean toward the AC being muslim. But the ENP,solona,EU is still a very good possibilty.



I don't think he will due to this verse:

Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

This passage indicates that the AC will not regard God, Jesus, or any of the false gods out there. He regards only himself. However, on a side note, Solana fits the description because he has much disregard for religion (I think he has a secular outlook since he was once a proponent of socialism).


You need to goto the next verse to see what god he will honor though.

Daniel 11:38
But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.


This clearly points out that the Antichrist will be a New Ager, because they actively teach that god isnt a person, but a force or energy.
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Postby Seeker on Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:16 am

Hi Jereome,

This clearly points out that the Antichrist will be a New Ager, because they actively teach that god isnt a person, but a force or energy.


I think it is a good idea to read the context of the setting we are talking about here.

Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.


His God of forces is his armies and fortifications. The Strong’s for this word is this from e-sword.

H4581-forces
מעז מעז מעוּז מעוז
mâ‛ôz mâ‛ûz mâ‛ôz mâ‛ûz
maw-oze', maw-ooz', maw-oze', maw-ooz'
From H5810; a fortified place; figuratively a defence: - force, fort (-ress), rock, strength (-en), (X most) strong (hold).


It does not mean forces of nature it means army forces or fortresses. The AC becomes such a great military victor he thinks he is a god.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


After the AoD (midpoint last 7 years) the AC goes on a military campaign that lasts for 3 ½ years. Dan 11:38 is after the AoD (11:31) but before the end Dan 11:40. The AC is so confident he proclaims himself above all gods. He has done this with his armies. How do I know he is thinking this?

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.


God uses the AC (Assyrian) to judge Israel.

Isa 10:13 For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
Isa 10:14 And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.
Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
Isa 10:16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
Isa 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;


The AC begins to think he did it all on his own. This is the same mistake that Nebuchadnezzar made in Babylon.

Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.


As long as Nebuch gave honor to God his kingdom was still his. When he, through his infinite wisdom, decides he is responsible for the glory of Babylon; God takes it away from him until he acknowledges God once again. The kingdom is then given back to him. Alexander the Great at first gave glory to God also. Then very soon after he allowed them to declare him a god, he died.

These kingdoms and rulers were given to us by the Lord via Daniel to help us understand the 4th kingdom that will be on earth (AC kingdom). I suspect the AC starts out with good intentions. But as they say power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts ultimately. From all this I get the impression that the “forces” Daniel is speaking of is in military terms rather than forces of nature.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

Postby Douggg on Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:18 am

:answerthequestion:

Okay, brother Steve, I will tell you why the ENP is not the confiriming of the covenant of Daniel 9.

It is because in the midst of the seven years the Antichrist breaks the covenant that he had confirmed stopping the daily sacrifice. What covenant established the daily sacrifice?

Well, it wasn't any peace covenant - that established the sacrifices in the TEMPLE to begin with - THINK! - :mrgreen:

The Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, declares that he is god, and also that the Abomination of Desolation is setup to be worshipped.... i.e. IMHO the man's face of the image in Daniel 2, was that of the Antichrist, not Nebuchanezzar, as the image is what the false prohet has the world build, but that is another topic. There is no peace covenant spoken of in Daniel 9. People are assuming that because the Antichrist in Daniel 8 brings many people to destruction via peace, that the covenant in Daniel 9 is a peace covenant....
which is also the premise of the ENP notion. However, the covenant that will be confirmed is the one that established the animal sacrifices - remember Daniel 9 is specifically relavent to the Jews - is the MT SINAI covenant.

The Antichrist will be a Jew who comes to their rescue riding a white horse and they will think that he is their long awaited messiah. He will deceive them in to thinking that yes he is indeed their messiah - by confirming the MT SINAI covenant which is the basis for Judaism - so that the animal sacrifices will be reinstituted, but stopped when the Antichrist 3 1/2 years later declares himself to be god. The animal sacrifices that are going to be stopped in Daniel 9 have nothing to do with the ENP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are they going to start up animal sacrifices again on Jan 1, 2007?



Peace,

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Postby Douggg on Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:04 am

Hi brother Seeker,
It does not mean forces of nature it means army forces or fortresses. The AC becomes such a great military victor he thinks he is a god.


Oh, I thought you were going to say it was Erdogan because he was eating to much baklava.:mrgreen:

The Antichrist in Isaiah 14 is referred to as the Assyrian and the King of Babylon... it has nothing to do with him being literally either. Those are just namesakes - like the King of Tarsus in Ezekiel 28 was for Satan. The Antichrist will be the king of Babylon - but it is the principality of of Satan, the invisible empire, kingdom of Babylon, Babylon the Great referred to in Revelation.

The image in Daniel 2 is the image of the Antichrist
, the beast... compare it to Revelation 13:1-2 with Daniel 7 as the connecting the metals of the image in Daniel 2 to the beasts in Revelation 13:2. The image that the false prophet has the world make of the Antichrist will be the same as what Nebuchanezzar dreamed. Nebuchadnezzar did not recognize himself as the head of gold - because it was not his face that he saw.

The image in Daniel 2 represents both the AC man and his kingdom just like it does in Revelation 13 and 17 - Babylon the Great - the spiritual empire of Satan - that has been responsible for the deaths of the prophets, saints, and ALL that were slain upon the earth - since day one (Rev 18:24). Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen (the statue of Daniel 2 comes tumbling down - get it?).... and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ Rev 11:15.

"And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground." Isaiah 21:9b.

Now look at Babylon the Great of Revelation 17.... she is the Mother of Harlots and abominations .... i.e. false gods, the abomination of desolation being the image of the Antichrist, the image of Daniel 2, that the false prophet will have the world make and required to worship.


Peace,

Doug L. :mrgreen:
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Postby WhiteH2OWoman on Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:05 am

I understand "god of forces" to mean someone who practically worships military power. In that respect, Solana is dead-on, since he has sole power over the EU's military forces.

Is anyone else getting huge goosebumps given that it's December 29th, 2006 and the 70th Week of Daniel/Revelation 7-year countdown COULD be starting in...like, gulp...3 DAYS???

And if it does (Steve and Doug, please note my use of the words "could" and "if"), we would know within the next 3 days if it's going to be a pre-trib rapture or not! WOW!
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Postby bchandler on Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:51 am

Remember some things about Solana:

1. He was and is a military leader, so he puts his faith in military forces.

2. He is a physicist by education, and studies the four atomic forces of our universe. Seeing them as the forces of creation... not God.

3. His Mom is hooked up with a new age guru, so Solana has been exposed to the new age concepts of the white lodge and the black lodge. The force of the cosmic consciousness, or "christ" consciousness which one can tapp into on either the light side, or the dark side. New agers believe that by tapping into this "force" they put on the "christ" consciousness, and will eventually ascend to godhood themselves. In new age speak, the white lodge is the all inclusive many roads to God theology, and the black lodge are those who hold monotheistic, only one way to God beliefs.

So, in at least 3 different areas of his life, Solana's faith is in forces... military, natural, and spiritual. The spiritual being the most significant and having influence and power in and over the other 2 sets of forces.

One has to look only so far as the balkans to see Solana's abismal human rights track record, and his true hatred for Christians. His security forces stand by and do nothing while Christians are raped tortured and burned alive in their churches and homes, but respond with an iron fist any time Christians attempt to defend themselves.

In this action alone it is plain to see that Solana is very much a part of the new age agenda to create a religious war between the jews and muslims and the christians and muslims so that they can sweep in with their new world religion via the AoC and sweep away the members of the black lodge and cleans the world bringing in true luciferianistic initiation into the new world religion. Lucifer is seen by them as an enlightened being sitting at the head of the seventh level of ascended masters, and in their hierarchy YHWH and Y'shua are only fourth level ascended masters... subject to lucifer. They consider lucifer to be the most enlightened being who has succeeded in completing the process of ascension and becomming one with the cosmic or christ consciousness.

This is the religious environment and indoctrination solana grew up in.
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Postby Douggg on Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:04 pm

WhiteH2OWoman wrote:I understand "god of forces" to mean someone who practically worships military power. In that respect, Solana is dead-on, since he has sole power over the EU's military forces.

Is anyone else getting huge goosebumps given that it's December 29th, 2006 and the 70th Week of Daniel/Revelation 7-year countdown COULD be starting in...like, gulp...3 DAYS???

And if it does (Steve and Doug, please note my use of the words "could" and "if"), we would know within the next 3 days if it's going to be a pre-trib rapture or not! WOW!


uh.... are we reading from the same bible? :mrgreen:

Gog/Magog battle, then the 7 years begin immediately thereafter.
Is Gog/Magog going to happen in the next 3 days?


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Final Trumpet on Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:52 pm

Gog/Magog battle, then the 7 years begin immediately thereafter.
Is Gog/Magog going to happen in the next 3 days?


Why do some insist that G/M battle will happen before the 70th week? There is nothing that I have seen that indicates this. If it is due to the "7 years of weapon burning" that still is not an indicator that Gog/Magog is before. People assume that need for fuel absolutly cannot happen in the Millenium even though there is no indication of that in the scriptures. There will still be regular humans on the earth and they are still bound by natural laws.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


Days of Noah

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Sir Isaac Newton

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Postby Douggg on Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:44 pm

Final Trumpet wrote:
Gog/Magog battle, then the 7 years begin immediately thereafter.
Is Gog/Magog going to happen in the next 3 days?


Why do some insist that G/M battle will happen before the 70th week? There is nothing that I have seen that indicates this. If it is due to the "7 years of weapon burning" that still is not an indicator that Gog/Magog is before. People assume that need for fuel absolutly cannot happen in the Millenium even though there is no indication of that in the scriptures. There will still be regular humans on the earth and they are still bound by natural laws.


Do you really think the crazy guy in Iran is going to put his nuclear weapons program on hold for 7 years.... and, in his mind, delay the coming of the Mahdi..... that long?

No, he is stoking the fire to the boiler. Full speed ahead. He laughs at the west and the europeans.... he kicked the EU inspectors out of Iran...
told them to go work on their ENP instead of getting in his way....:mrgreen:....uh, that part might be an exageration by me :mrgreen:

Gog/Magog, then the 7 years beginning immediately thereafter.

Conditions for the pre-Gog/Magog attack, Israel living at ease, check out these pictures....
http://www.israel.org/MFA/MFA%20Publica ... %20Leisure
http://www.israel.org/MFA/MFA%20Publica ... %20Tourism

....now think about what it will be like during with the Man of Sin in charge and the abomination fo desolation setup to be worshipped and people being beheaded for not do so. And all of the judgments befalling the earth at that time. Will those types of pictures be possible?

The conditions for Gog/Magog are now.... pre-trib. We are on the threshold, but the ENP is not the instrument. Gog/Magog, then the new world order following - a world sans mideast Islam and Russain bear. Perceived hero AC in charge. Try to imagine the world without the threat of Isalm and the Russians, - and you can see the potential for the world, the Jews in particular, to believe that they have entered the Messianic age. That is when they will say peace, peace, and their temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices reinstituted. The EU will take over all of the oil in the middleeast under the from Europe AC - that's what's in it for them - so he will be their messiah as well.



Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:38 am

Hey Doug who is going to stand the walls and mountains back up for the last 7 years :ummm:

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

And wouldn't you think people might freak when every creature on earth, including them, shake at the presence of God?

Peace Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby brandon on Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:20 am

Hey Doug, show me where it says that Gog/Magog must come before the seven years?

Also, the reality is that a temple could fulfill bible prophecy just as well if it was erected 5 days before the Abomination of Desolation as it could if it was built 3.5 years prior.

We've got probably another 2-3 years for this to really start to fall into place. Face it, we are not going to see every single domino being put in place, but we can look at what we can see, look to the Bible to see what it tells us about these events.

Part of the problem that we here in the West have with Bible prophecy is that we forget what the following verse means:

3While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.


The whole world and every Christian not paying attention will be in awe of how quickly the world as they have constructed will collapse.
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:44 am

Something else I would like to point out. The "covenant with many" never specifically mentions what it is about. So, many assume that the covenant is a peace covenant or temple rebuilding covenant. It never says that. It mentions that it will be broken in the middle and that temple sacrifice will be stopped. The enp with its mid-term break clause and the animal rights clause that is to be implimented around that time as well, certainly fits the prophecy.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


Days of Noah

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, & insist on their literal interpretations, in the midst of much clamor & opposition."
Sir Isaac Newton

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Postby Douggg on Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:24 pm

Seeker wrote:Hey Doug who is going to stand the walls and mountains back up for the last 7 years :ummm:

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

And wouldn't you think people might freak when every creature on earth, including them, shake at the presence of God?

Peace Seeker


Ezekiel 38:20 makes pretrib sense when read in context with the preceding Verse 19....

38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

No doubt that when Gog/Magog takes place it will be televised around the world - and just like when the WTC came down, people were shocked, but Gog/Magog will be without precedence.

Whether the shaking is felt throughout the planet - maybe. But again one has to take the wording in context because in verse 21...

38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.


...so if one wanted to manipulate "all my mountains", likewise Seeker, God owns the entire earth according to other passages.... is God going to fight Gog/Magog in the Himalaya's, the Andes, or the Brooks range in Alaska? No, the shaking occures in the land of Israel and all my mountains refere to those mountains in the land of Israel. Same goes for the walls in that immediate area where Gog's army will be destroyed.

God will destroy Gog's not only in the mountains but also the plains....
Ezekiel 39:5. The leaders of those countries who attack will also be destroyed in their own land.... Ezekiel 39:6.

The condition of Israel living in peace - actually a paradox for sure - but did you bother to look at those pictures I link to.... is something that can't be manipulated, as you are doing with those few phrases, as is not the seven years.

Islam is not found in Revelation for a reason - it will be destroyed in the Gog/Magog event, which is followed directly by the seven years.

In every other instance - you and others readily link the time, times, and a half times (half of seven years) of Daniel 7, to the time, times and a half time of Rev 12:14, as well as the 42 month rule of the beast of Revelation 13... as being the second half to the seven years of Daniel 9. And the 1260 days for the first half when the two witnesses testify with the 1260 days for the first half of Daniel 9 with the 1260 days of Rev 12:6 when Israel is in a (spiritual) wilderness having accepted the Antichrist (believeing that he is their messiah) - before Satan is kicked down to earth at the midpoint, when the Antichrist becomes the beast showing his true colors.

Given all of those well accepted numerous connections of timeframes above to the seven years of the seventieth week of Daniel ..... incredible to me is that many here can't make that connect of the seven years in Ezekiel with the same seven years. :butbutbut: doug... Erdogan, Solana, Turkey, Istanbul, ENP..... the endtimes seven years of Ezekiel 38 being the same endtimes seven years everywhere else... just doesn't fit our scenarios. =>doug, oh, jeppers, :banghead:

A few short years back the world for 40 years lived under the threat of communism.... communist this, communist that, nuclear war threat, cuba crisis, Vietnam, Berlin wall crisis, etc. etc. No one could at that think that in such a short amount of time a few weeks .... and communism, and the communists would be gone from dominating the world scene like a puff of smoke

The same will happen will Islam. Terrorism and the Islamic threat are etched into our current mentality. Suppose that Islam, like communisim, suddenly disappears from being a global threat? What kind of world would that be... also with the Russians without 5/6 of its military?

It will be a different world. The world will rejoice, at the same time be awestruck by the destruction of Gog/Magog. The EU will rush in to fill the void to take over the middle east oil fields... those not grabbed up by the Americans first. On a collective level, the nations will gravitate to the U.N. just like at the end of WWII to make all sorts of new world order pontifications. The new agers and the like will see the world entering the age of nirvana....as well as.... http://www.fastwalkers.com/home.htm , play the trailer..... Graham Handcock.. http://www.grahamhancock.com/ ..etc. Yes, I do listen to the George Noory show... http://www.coasttocoastam.com/ .... so I know what kind of twisted mindset is going to permeate the world of the Antichrist's messianic rule.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:22 am

Hi Doug,

I am not manipilating anything Doug I am just using the wording God uses. He says the mountains will be thrown down and I believe that. He says that after the Gog invasion Israel will be His people. Doug if Israel are God's people after the Gog invasion why would God allow them to be slaughtered after He has brought them back into the fold?

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.


After the Gog invasion God will not let His holy name polluted any longer. His name will be in the midst of Israel. The heathen will know He is the Lord.


Eze 39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD. .


The Gog battle ends they are burying for 7 months. God considers this a day that He will be glorified.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


All the heathen will see God’s judgment that He has executed on Gog and company. God’s glory will be set among the heathen. The house of Israel will know that the Lord is their God from that day forever.

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

The heathen will know that the reason they were able to attack Israel in the first place is because God has hide is face from Israel.

Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.


After this Gog battle God will have gathered Israel out of her enemies hands and He is sanctified in the sight of many nations. Israel will know that He is the Lord their God. He will not hide His face from them any longer for He has poured His spirit upon the house of Israel. When does God pour His spirit out upon Israel?

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


He pours it out when they see the one who they have pierced (Jesus).

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


God pours His spirit after Israel knows God is in the midst of her, He is the Lord Israel’s God and there is no other God, and Israel will never be ashamed. So we have several places that show that God pours His spirit out on Israel after Jesus has returned. Show me your scriptural references showing God pouring out His spirit prior to the beginning of the last 7 years.

Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Back to the mountains.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Mic 1:4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

Isa 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Isa 54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
Isa 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.


Those are the only biblical references I can find resembling mountains being flattened. As far as I can tell none of them relate to before the beginning of the last 7 years. If I am mistaken please point it out but they all appear to happen after the last 7 years have began. So if you don’t mind please provide biblical reference showing mountains being thrown down prior to the beginning of the last 7 years.

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Here we see some abnormal rain (great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Isa 30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa 30:28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.
Isa 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.
Isa 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

Isa 28:2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.


Again I ask you to provide your scripture references showing great hail prior to the last 7 years.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.


Here we see fowls gathered to eat the flesh of princes, mighty men, their horses, all men of war.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Ok Doug I have provided biblical references your turn.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby WhiteH2OWoman on Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:37 am

Douggg wrote:
uh.... are we reading from the same bible? :mrgreen:



Depends...are you using KJV or NASB? I must say, I really don't care for the way you put that. You sound very opinionated. Can you admit that there's a possibility that you might be wrong? Because I can admit that with my theories...which is why I put a large "IF" in my post.

BChandler, many thanks for the good info on Solana!
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Postby Sherree on Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:49 am

Let's just say that Jan. 1 doesn't start the trib. Those who believe that it does start tomorrow, will you go around claiming and telling everyone that we are now in the trib? Without any confirmation whatsoever? This scare me, cause if it's not the start, couldn't a lot of folks be lead astray?

Forgive me for not having a better understanding. Just wondering, though?
Sherree

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Postby 1whowaits on Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:19 pm

It may be that the ENP is the covenant with the many, it does have that appearance. But I would question whether this is the confirming of the covenant spoken of in Dan. 9. Though it would appear that the ENP is a strengthening of an agreement within the EU and some outside nations, does the rest of the world see this as a confirming of a covenant?

To the world at large and perhaps to the nations outside the EU, would this appear to be the 'covenant' being made, more than a confirming of the covenant? Has the world or the nations involved outside of the EU really aknowledged this agreement as a 'covenant' in the past? Do 'the many' see this as a confirmation of the covenant or the initiation of the covenant?

Just looking at the situation in the ME one could come to a reasonable conclusion that Gog-magog is on the horizon. An event such as Gog-magog would cause such a disruption in an agreement like the ENP that it would be reasonable to assume that some type of renegotiation or recommitment of the covenant would be necessary. With the destruction that Gog-magog might cause it may also be possible that an agreement like the ENP could be expanded to include many more nations, perhaps involving the entire world (WENP?).

Gog-magog could be a stage setter, it could remove the obstacles of the muslim threat to the world and Israel, and through economic disruption it might decrease any resistance based on national soverignity. It could also set the stage for Israel's rebuilding of the temple and the eventual economic takeover of the world. The ENP appears to basically be an economic 'covenant' which could set the stage for the Mark and the limits on buying and selling.

As far as the timing of Gogo-magog, the scripture does not specifically state its timing, but it does appear to give us some hints.

The description of burning of weapons for 7 years, while not conclusive, does appear to be an association with the 7 years mentioned in Dan. 9.

At the end of Gog-magog God pours out His Spirit on Israel. Joel 2 also describes God pouring out His spirit on Israel after an attack by a northern army, which would appear to parallel Ezek.39. Joel states that the spirit will be poured out after the battle (and afterwards) but 'before' the coming of the 'great and terrible day of the Lord' described in Joel 3, at Christ's return.

Joel 2 describes a pouring out of the spirit on individuals, sons and daughters, old and young, men and women. Joel appears to describe a pouring out of the spirit akin to pentecost, the individual receiving of the spirit, and Peter did refer to this passage at Pentcost.

In contrast, Zech 12 describes a pouring out of the Spirit at Jesus' return on 'the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem', and the spirit poured out is one of grace and supplication, which does not appear to be like that of Pentecost. The passage also states that the 'clans' will mourn for the one pierced when Jesus returns. This description in Zech would suggest a national returning and mourning for the Messiah, not an individual receiving of the Spirit as described in Joel 2.

Does the scripture suggest a receiving of the Spirit by individuals in Israel any time prior to Jesus' return? Yes, Rev. 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000, sealing being a term of receiving the HS (Eph 4: 30), before any harm comes on the land or sea. The sealing occurring before harm comes would appear to imply that there are those who receive the HS in Israel before the middle of the 7 or perhaps even before the 7 begins.

Even though individuals recieve the Spirit prior to the midpoint, it does not mean that Israel would not suffer destruction after that point. Certainly there would be those in Israel who would not receive the Spirit, (in fact Zech implys only 1/3 of the nation will be saved), but will instead will reinstate the sacrificial system and later accept the AC as messiah.

So Israel can return to the Lord, at least the 1/3 remant that survives, and the Lord can still allow Israel to suffer destruction as there are those who accept the false Messiah. His name would not be profaned because those who accepted His Messiah would remain faithful throughout the 70th week. And it would appear that God does provide protection for 'the woman' in the wilderness for the latter 3 and 1/2 years, suggesting that at least part of Israel has a special relationship with Him.

But the majority of Israel that does not receive the Spirit and later accepts the false messiah would likely be allowed to remain in Isreal, and would continue to burn up all those weapons that were left after Gog-magog.

As far as the mountains being overturned at Gog-magog, as the passage in Ezek begins to describe the destruction, it implys that the events described are taking place in Israel- 'at that time there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel'. The passage appears to suggest that the moutains will be overturned in Israel, the hailstorm and burning sulfur will rain down in Israel, not the entire world.

As far as a hailstorm being described as occurring at a time other than the day of Christ's return and armageddon, there is a passage that suggests such a thing. The first trumpet in Rev. 8 has 'hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled upon the earth', which is remarkably similar to Ezek. 38- 'I will execute judgement upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burinig sulfur on him and the many nations with him'. Depending on one's theory on the timimg of the seals, trumpets and bowls, it is possible for the first trumpet to occur at the beginning of the 70th week.

One can make a logical case for Gog-magog occurring at the beginning of the 70th week, or just prior to the 70th week, by procees of elimination.

It would appear less likely that Gog-magog would occur at the end of the 70th week because, even though there are great similarities between the 2 battles, there are significant differences between the 2. Gog comes against the 'mountains of Israel' while the AC comes against Jerusalem in the valley. Gog comes with an alliance of several nations while the AC at armageddon comes with 'all nations'. Gog is killed at the battle and buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured and thrown alive into the Lake of fire.

Because of these differences it would appear that Gog-magog and armageddon are indeed 2 different events at 2 different times, Gog -magog and armageddon are not the same battle and one does not appear to be a subdivision of the other.

It would also appear unlikely that Gog-magog occurs at the midpoint of the 70th week as God states in Ezek. 39, after Gog-magog, that he will regather Israel- 'I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.' Why would God regather Israel to her own land at the time that Satan is persuing Israel and Israel is being protected in the wilderness? Why would Israel be burying the dead during a time when satan was persuing Israel. If the world understood that it was God who defeated Gog, why would they turn to the AC when he declares he is god, when there is no evidence that the AC helps Israel during the Gog battle?

Some suggest that Gog is a long, drawn out battle that occurs during the last 3 and 1/2 years. This would appear unlikey as no description in Ezek. is given of Israel fighting against or resisting Gog. It is God that destroys Gog, not Israel, and His judgement would appear to be swift and final.

By process of elimination it would appear that the most likely scenario for the timing of Gog-magog would be the beginning of the 70th week or just prior to the beginning of the 70th week. Again the 7 years of weapons buring might just be a clue. But some cannot see this occurring in this way because they have locked themselves into a particular view on timing of events.

But events have a way of overtaking our individual theories, and sometimes we have to look at the reality of the situation in the world confronting us. Gog does appear to be on the horizon, and that is the reality confronting us.
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:55 pm

I am also seeing a similar pattern with the 6th seal and Gog/Magog.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


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Postby 1whowaits on Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:06 pm

Final trumpet, i would agree with you. Many have a different view of the 6th seal because men say it is the day of the Lord and there is the darkening of the sun and moon. Because the DOTL is mentioned and the 'cosmic signs' are present, many assume that the 6th seal must be describing the last day, the great and terrible day of the Lord, Christ's return.

But in the OT, the mentioning of the DOTL does not always mean that the passage is discussing the last day. Isa. 13 mentions the DOTL and describes the destruction of Babylon by the Medes. Isa. 34 mentions the DOTL but describes judgement against Edom. Jer 46 mentions the DOTL but describes judgement on Egypt. Ezek. 30 mentions the DOTL but also describes judgement against Egypt. Amos 5 mentions the DOTL but is describing judgement against Israel.

When the DOTL is mentioned in scripture it is not always referring to the last day, the day of Christ's return. The DOTL can be used to describe a day of judgement by God on a particular nation or group of nations, when He pours out His wrath, he executes judgement, on that nation.

And this is what is described at Gog-magog- 'I will execute judgement upon him with plague and bloodshed, I will pour down torrents of rain, hail and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. And I will show my greatness and my holiness and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord'.

Is this not similar to what is described at the 6th seal. God will send judgement against Gog and His armies with fire and hail coming down from the sky= sun and moon darkened. This is a day of judgement- 'I will execute judgement'= The day of the Lord (not the last day). And this will occur in the sight of many nations and they will know that God did this= men will indeed say that this is the judgement of God, this is the wrath of God poured out on these nations, this is the day of the Lord.

And they would be correct in that this would be 'a' DOTL, a day of His judgement on a nation or group of nations. But this would not be the last day, the true day of the Lord, the day of Christ's return. If Jesus is not there, it is not the great and terrible day of the Lord, the last day. The return of Jesus is the event that differentiates the last day from every other DOTL. If Jesus' return is not in the passage, it is unlikely (but it is still possible) that the passage is discussing the last day.

But if every time the sun and moon are darkened and some terrible event happens and men say that this must be the DOTL, men will be ripe for deception. I believe Satan will use such opportunities to put forth false Christ's.

Gog-magog may be such an event in which men will say this must have been armageddon and the DOTL. They will then be more likely to accept one who comes after that event and claims to be the messiah. The false one can point to the Bible and say that the scripture did predict a great battle in which the sun and moon were darkened and God clearly poured out His wrath. And after that event the messiah is supposed to come, so why resist?

It is possible that there is more than one future DOTL, considering how the DOTL is used in the OT. The DOTL can be a specific reference to the last day when Christ returns. The DOTL can also be a general term for any day when God judges a nation or nations. Gog-magog would indeed be such a day.

The context would determine which day was being discussed. If the return of Jesus and the events surrounding his return (such as all nations gathered, the raising of the dead, Jesus defeating the AC and Satan) are not described in the passage in question, it is unlikely that that passage is describing the last day, the great and terrible day of the Lord.

And I don't see any mention of Christ's return at the 6th seal.
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:47 pm

One of the reasons I believe that Gog/Magog is at the 6th seal is because of the massive earthquake at the 6th seal and also because of the earthquake during Gog/Magog.

The earthquake at the 6th seal will be destructive to the world. It mentions that the sky will roll back as a scroll and some believe that the reason it appears that way is because of the volcanoes that will explode during that earthquake and the rolling smoke coming from them, or at least one massive one. The smoke would cause the moon to appear as blood. That would explain the fire and brimstone coming down as well. Mountains are moved out of place and thrown down. It also mentions in the Gog/Magog war that He will have respect from many nations. This fits as well since the 6th seal mentions mens comment about the day of His wrath has come. Such a worldwide catastrophe would have men cowering and giving God the credit.

Also, the times given about 1260 days, 42 months, and times, times, time and a half are all seemingly based on the 360 day cycle. Could this disaster be what causes the earth to alter its solar orbit back to a 360 day cycle?

That would set up he first 3 1/2 years to recover from the seal before the AoD and also with the revival in Isreal and rebuilding of the temple. This would allow the 2 witnesses to witness and also after the revival for the 144,000 to come to the knowledge of Christ.

I also wonder if this quake will help be the end of US as a world power. Thus the reason the UN is moved to Babylon.

I agree about the DotL being a period of time. Kind of like how hour is used as a period of time even though it does not mean a literal hour. Seems that the DotL would be 7 years since 7 is the number for spiritual perfection and completeness.

Anyway, just some thoughts I have had about this.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


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Postby WhiteH2OWoman on Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:18 pm

Sherree wrote:Let's just say that Jan. 1 doesn't start the trib. Those who believe that it does start tomorrow, will you go around claiming and telling everyone that we are now in the trib? Without any confirmation whatsoever? This scare me, cause if it's not the start, couldn't a lot of folks be lead astray?

Forgive me for not having a better understanding. Just wondering, though?


Hi Sherree,
As for me, I am not absolutely 100% sure the trib starts tomorrow, and I don't think anyone can be sure of it without a direct word from God. Off the top of my head, I give it roughly a 75% chance that it does start with the ENP confirmation tomorrow.

But no, I won't go around telling others that we are 100% definitely in the trib. What I WILL do is state the facts of ENP, and relevant scriptures, and then tell them that in my opinion, the $64,000 question is: "Is ENP the covenant mentioned in Daniel, and thus, the tribulation started on 1/1/07?"

And I'll tell them that I think it probably was and is...but I will stress that that is just my opinion, and I encourage them to research it for themselves.

I'm not big on people believing things just because someone else said so. People should investigate for themselves...and go into the Word.

Mods, please forgive me, because I am not referring to anyone in particular, but I personally get quite weary of reading super-stubborn, highly opinionated blow-hard blustering commentary from people who absolutely will not and cannot admit to the possibility that they might be wrong. I don't know what draws these types to prophecy, but there you have it...
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Postby Salty Skipper on Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:58 pm

Sherree wrote:Let's just say that Jan. 1 doesn't start the trib. Those who believe that it does start tomorrow, will you go around claiming and telling everyone that we are now in the trib? Without any confirmation whatsoever? This scare me, cause if it's not the start, couldn't a lot of folks be lead astray?

Forgive me for not having a better understanding. Just wondering, though?


I don't think anybody here is absolutely certain of anything at this point. There are still some things that will obviously have to take place before anybody can say that this is absolutely "it." I'm not sure if we will have to wait all of the way to the AOD, but at some point down the road...we should have enough evidence to say one way or another.

And, by the way, the tribulation is not 7 years long. It looks to be about 3 1/2 years long. That 3 1/2 is still a ways off even if the ENP is "it."
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Interesting

Postby CaryC on Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:16 pm

Hey,

Got this from a friend, thought some might find it interesting:

In Israel's Action Plan, the Eu provides financial support - distributed thru the ENPI?

• The Commission is developing a new European Neighbourhood and Partnership Instrument

(ENPI), which will provide targeted assistance to Israel to support, where appropriate, the

actions identified in the present document and also covering cross-border and transnational cooperation

between Israel and the Member States. There will also be infrastructure investment support through

the European Investment Bank.



According to the way this paragraph is worded, the ENPI is still the distributing instrument for funding for the ENP...



Summary of the European Neighbourhood and Partnership Instrument (ENPI)

(2007 – 2013)

From 2007, the ENPI will provide grants for local development projects that target

sustainable development and approximate EU policies and standards in countries that are

direct neighbours of the enlarged EU, involving both EU member states and partner

countries. Additional, the Economic Co-operation and Development instrument will

address both regional and cross-border co-operation among partner countries.

Until 2007, the Tacis, MEDA and Interreg programmes will be the main financial

assistance instruments for EU neighbouring countries, until they are replaced by the

ENPI.

Objective:

The objective of ENPI is to target sustainable development and approximate EU policies

and standards in the neighbour countries. It follows agreed key areas in the European

Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) Action Plans (specific action plans for development),

which are the cornerstones of the ENP. Funds are allocated to individual country

programmes depending on their needs and their implementation of agreed reforms.



Sounds like Israel's money is going to be coming through the ENPI after all. This paragraph says the ENPI provides targeted assistance for the Actions Plans.

The following is from the 42 page thingy:

Beneficiary countries will be divided into two categories, depending on their status as

either Candidate Countries or potential Candidate Countries. Potential Candidate

Countries are listed in Annex I of the Regulation, Candidate Countries in Annex II.

ANNEX 1

e.g.:

– Albania

– Bosnia and Herzegovina

– Serbia and Montenegro

– the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

ANNEX 2

e.g.:

– Croatia

– Turkey

Israel's not on the list...but according to the top paragraphs, the ENPI is providing funding for their Action Plan - which is for 3 years - with the following comment about what comes after that:

The advisability of any new contractual arrangements will be considered in due time.

I copied that quote directly for Israel's Action Plan. Does it sound to you like Israel, though not a part of the main plan, still gets their money the same way???

Herb's website says the ENP is for 7 years - it's not. The ENPI - the money end - is for 7 years.

Starting January 1, the New ENP will kick in and last for seven years -- to coincide with the EU's next seven-year budget. Now Solana, due to decisions taken at the EU's December summit, will on January 1 take his new seat in the Commission -- where EU funds are -- in order to oversee the New ENP. (from herb)

Have been reading too much - whatcha think?? Israel's ENP Action Plan expires after 3 years - when did the 3 years start?? Signed 2004, ratified 2005. None of the ENP action plans are for more than 5 years, most countries have APs that last 3 years. The ENP is where the whole human rights, weapons proliferation, etc., stuff is dealt with, but Israel's is about to expire...The ENPI might turn out to be a big deal, but still think the next round of Action Plans through the ENP is the real deal, not the ENPI. Of course, the ENPI is setting the groundwork for manipulation through economics, but what do you really think???

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Postby WhiteH2OWoman on Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:21 pm

Salty Skipper wrote:
And, by the way, the tribulation is not 7 years long. It looks to be about 3 1/2 years long. That 3 1/2 is still a ways off even if the ENP is "it."


Salty dear...are you calling the Great Tribulation that begins with the AoD the tribulation? Revelation specifies two periods of 1,260 days apiece, IIRC. That adds up to 7 years. That's what I call the tribulation, with the Great Tribulation being the last half of it, the worser 3.5 years.
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Postby Douggg on Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:53 pm

God pours His spirit after Israel knows God is in the midst of her, He is the Lord Israel’s God and there is no other God, and Israel will never be ashamed. So we have several places that show that God pours His spirit out on Israel after Jesus has returned. Show me your scriptural references showing God pouring out His spirit prior to the beginning of the last 7 years.


After Jesus has returned, as you say?

No, the Jews accept Jesus as the messiah BEFORE he returns. It is a condition that the Jews will accept him aforehand before he comes back to this earth to rescue them.

Speaking to the Jews, Jesus said he is not coming back until they say - Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Israel became a nation again in 1948, as the time of the gentiles is coming to a close. God is preparing the Jews for finally accepting Jesus as the messiah.

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you *, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

No one can say Jesus is - Lord, except by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

So yes, it is during that seven years immediately following Gog/Magog that God pours out his Spirit upon the Jews... to draw them to Jesus. 144,000 of them have special significance. And God sends his two witnesses to the Jews for 1260 days, which equates to the 1260 days - that SPECIFIC 1260 day timeframe, of Revelation 12:6, testifying of Jesus and against the Antichrist who the Jews will erroneously think is their messiah - the covenenat with death and hell that God will not let stand. The 1260 days is the first half of the seven years.

It is IMPORTANT to note that as the Jews flee into the literal wilderness, Revelation 12:14 that they have accepted Jesus as the messiah. And that particular timeframe, it is NOT the 1260 days, but the time, times, and a half times SAME as Daniel 7:25 during which the little horn persecutes the saints.

First half of the 7 years - Revelation 12:6, the 1260 days, Israel is in a state of spiritual wildneress - with the two witnesses testifying to them about Jesus.

Second half of the 7 years - Revelation 12:14, the time, times, and half timess, Israel is in the literal wilderness, because she is running from the persecution by the Antichrist for refusing to worship the AOD - because they reject the Antichrist and have the testimony of Jesus - JUST LIKE WE HAVE !!!!

Here are the verses...

FIRST HALF OF THE SEVEN YEARS:
(the 1260 days)

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (Rev 19:10....the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Note in Rev 12:17 in green below the JEWS have the testimony of Jesus for that second half of the seven years.)

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


THE SECOND HALF OF THE SEVEN YEARS:
(the time, times, and half time)
(after the Antichrist has stopped the daily sacrifice)

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time *, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Dan7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


**********************************************************

The seven years begin immediately following Gog/Magog and none of the verses that you have provided changes that. Right now there are many many secular Jews who don't even believe in God, much less Jesus. So God first has to get them to believe in Him - as they have known him through the Mt. Sinai experience. Then the next thing is to get them past Rabbinic Judaism that now teaches against Jesus as the messiah. In order to do that, they will... as Jesus said... accept another coming in his own name. That will be Satan's plan the covenant with death and hell via the Antichrist to deceive them into thinking that the incognito Antichrist that he is their messiah.... that God will not let stand.

The two witnesses testify about Jesus and against the Antichrist. Just like we heard many a testimony about Jesus before we became Christians.

That's why when the Antichrist ascends from the bottomless pit - he has them killed at the beginning of the mid-point.... and the first of the judgements to befall the earth and the Antichrist the beast's rule is a great earthquake that hits Jerusalem.

Peace,

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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:57 am

Hi Doug,

Thanks for the scripture Doug. It is hard to debate speculation and theories but scripture can be proven or disproved using other scripture.

So yes, it is during that seven years immediately following Gog/Magog that God pours out his Spirit upon the Jews... to draw them to Jesus. 144,000 of them have special significance.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


So you are saying that after God pours His spirit out upon the Jews these things happen. They go through the tribulation after God has poured His spirit out upon them…hmmm.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Here are the events following the pouring out of God’s spirit on Israel. We have the cosmic signs mentioned.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The cosmic signs occur after the tribulation has ended. The tribulation Jesus is talking about is described as this.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.


Notice very specifically the warning that if any man tells you Jesus has arrived believe him not. Now the Jews have to accept Jesus before God pours His spirit out. Jesus has not arrived yet during the tribulation, which begins at the midpoint of the last 7 years.

Note in Rev 12:17 in green below the JEWS have the testimony of Jesus for that second half of the seven years.)


If they have the testimony of Jesus why would Jesus allow them to be persecuted? Let’s review. God pours His spirit out on Israel near the cosmic signs. The cosmic signs occur after the midpoint (AoD) and after the worst tribulation Israel has or will ever see has ended.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The cosmic signs occur prior to the day of the Lord. This precisely matches Matt 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The cosmic signs occur before Jesus returns. When do the Jews accept Jesus?

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God says the cosmic signs occur when God punishes the world for their evil in the day of His fierce anger.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Again the cosmic signs associated with the wrath of God.

Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.


After God has removed Israel’s enemies, He pours His spirit out on Israel. God will no longer hide His face from them after He pours His spirit out upon the house of Israel. When does God gather Israel into safety?

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


In that day (day of the Lord) Israel warriors will be given great strength. The feeble among Israel will be as David, the greatest warrior Israel has ever had. Also in that day God will seek to destroy all nations that come against Israel. After that God pours His spirit out.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Jesus feet stand on the mount of Olives just after God fights against those nations. The Lord comes with all His saints in Zec 14:5. When does that happen?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Those which sleep (dead) in Jesus will God bring with Him. So Jesus brings saints with Him prior to our rapture. If Jesus brings the saints with Him in both Zec 14 and 1Th4 they are the same event. This only occurs once. This sets the timing to when Jesus returns. It is very near the end of the last 7 years at the battle of Armageddon. You can continue to espouse your theories Doug but they don’t match what the bible says happens.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Who is the man child and when was He born? The child (Jesus) was born and Satan stood by ready to devour the child? What did Herod do when he learned about the birth of Jesus. He killed every Jewish boy under the age of 3 years I believe.

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

This all seems to match the first advent to me. Mary bore the child Jesus, Herod (Satan) wanted to devour that child, and the woman (Mary) fled to the wilderness (Egypt). I am not so sure all of this occurs during the last 7 years.

Anyway I hope God doesn't pour His spirit out on Israel in a manner that matches your scenario because His spirit seems to cause them to be persecuted and killed for at least 3 1/2 years while they have the spirit of God poured out on them.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The Jews and all kindreds see Him arriving in the clouds. If the Jews see Him arriving in the clouds they see this return.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


In all these cases Jesus is in the clouds or heaven. You see Doug Jesus only returns once. He returns with the saints already with Him. These are the ones at the 5th seal asking how long before He avenges their blood. Then at the 6th seal He avenges their blood with the wrath of the Lamb. Then we are raptured. We will be here for the whole show. Still don't believe it?

That's why when the Antichrist ascends from the bottomless pit - he has them killed at the beginning of the mid-point.... and the first of the judgements to befall the earth and the Antichrist the beast's rule is a great earthquake that hits Jerusalem.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the 7th trumpet begins to sound the mystery of God is finished it is over.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


The kingdoms of this world have become Christ's and His everlasting reign begins. This is the end of the last 7 years just after the two witnesses are called up into heaven. So the two witnesses testify during the last 3 1/2 years. According to you this happens at the midpoint, I think not.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Sherree on Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:31 am

Thanks Salty for you kind reply. I agree with you. I also believe the last 3 1/2 years of Dans. 70th week is the Great Tribulation.

Thank you, too Woman for your reply, also. I was trying to get a better understanding, and stated that at the end of my post. There was no reason for you to call me names, and play to the mods. to back up your reasoning for it! There seem to be people who are very opinionated on both sides, here. I'm just asking questions out of fear. Is this still allowed in your opinion?
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:31 am

Hi Doug,

I forgot one thing I was wanting to bring up as well concerning the two witnesses.

That's why when the Antichrist ascends from the bottomless pit - he has them killed at the beginning of the mid-point.... and the first of the judgements to befall the earth and the Antichrist the beast's rule is a great earthquake that hits Jerusalem.


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


Notice Doug that this is the 7th trumpet here, as in there have been six prior to the 7th.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


These events have already occured prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet. If the 7th trumpet is just after the two witnesses die and that is at the midpoint that means all these judgments of God have occured prior to the middle of the last 7 years. Ya still think the two witnesses die at the midpoint?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby WhiteH2OWoman on Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:04 pm

Sherree wrote:Thank you, too Woman for your reply, also. I was trying to get a better understanding, and stated that at the end of my post. There was no reason for you to call me names, and play to the mods. to back up your reasoning for it! There seem to be people who are very opinionated on both sides, here. I'm just asking questions out of fear. Is this still allowed in your opinion?


Uh, Sherree...did you read what I said? I was speaking directly to you in the first 4 paragraphs. I was NOT speaking to you in the 5th paragraph. In fact, I specifically said, "Mods, please forgive me, because I am not referring to anyone in particular"

That last part, in the bold, means that I did not have anyone in particular in mind...and especially not you, Sherree. Actually, if I had anyone in mind, it would be some of the men, who tend to be very strongly opinionated...but not any of the women.

And I did not call you names. Sorry if you had a bad day and are touchy...hope it gets better.

Sure, you're welcome to ask questions. Like I said, and I'll repeat it once more, I think everyone should research things for themselves and ask questions. And I'd appreciate it if you could do that without accusing me of things I did not do.
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Postby Sherree on Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:16 pm

Sorry if you had a bad day and are touchy...hope it gets better.


Thanks for your concern, but I feel quite well!

If you were not including me in among all the others you were speaking of, you should have started another post to address your concerns! Anyone who read your post could have, and some did, think you were speaking directly to me! See, you were misunderstood by more than just me. That's where opinions can get you. Facts and facts only, that's what I recommend!

Hope you are having a nice day!
Sherree

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Postby WhiteH2OWoman on Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:37 pm

Sherree wrote:
If you were not including me in among all the others you were speaking of, you should have started another post to address your concerns! Anyone who read your post could have, and some did, think you were speaking directly to me! See, you were misunderstood by more than just me. That's where opinions can get you. Facts and facts only, that's what I recommend!


And now you're going to tell me how I should post, hmm?
I have Attention Deficit Disorder--I'm known to change subjects in mid-sentence. I stand by my statement--for the third time, I said I was not referring to anyone in particular. And I can't address what "some" think, since I have no visibility into that and you haven't given any details.

Secondly...name-calling has no place on FP and I don't engage in it. I make my living as a professional writer...believe me, if I had called you names, you'd know it!

As far as facts and only facts...Sherree, if we stuck to those, we wouldn't have a Prophecy Debate section. Almost all prophecy interpretation is someone's opinion.

If you are truly interested in knowing the sum total of what I said to you, go back and read the first 4 paragraphs--the rest was not addressed to you.

I'm going to end my part of this discussion now since it's showing all the early warning signs of an unseemly flame war.
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Postby Sherree on Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:51 pm

I'm going to end my part of this discussion now since it's showing all the early warning signs of an unseemly flame war.


Amen to that, sister!
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Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:26 pm

Hi Seeker, you seem to be tying Zechariah 14, where it says the Lord will come with all his saints... to rescue the Jews....with the resurrection/rapture of 1thess4:15-18.


Jesus feet stand on the mount of Olives just after God fights against those nations. The Lord comes with all His saints in Zec 14:5. When does that happen?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Those which sleep (dead) in Jesus will God bring with Him. So Jesus brings saints with Him prior to our rapture. If Jesus brings the saints with Him in both Zec 14 and 1Th4 they are the same event. This only occurs once. This sets the timing to when Jesus returns. It is very near the end of the last 7 years at the battle of Armageddon. You can continue to espouse your theories Doug but they don’t match what the bible says happens.


I never have taken issue with Jesus returning to this earth at the conclusion of the seven years. So I don't see what point you are making in that regard.

However, you are making a mistake to tie Zec 14:5 to 1Thess4:14. Those are two completely separate events. I will explain.

In 1Thess4:14... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

That verse precedes the resurrection of the dead (their bodies!!!!) and the changing of those who are alive. When it say "them also which sleep in Jesus", it is talking about Christians who have died..... and their souls have gone on to be with Lord..... it is their souls that God bring with Jesus.... to be reunited with their bodies. So those bodies of those who are dead in Christ rise first... and are joined in one great assembly with raptured saints, that is, those who are alive... to meet the Lord in the air.

After meeting the Lord in the air, he takes the resurected saints and raptured saints in their eternal incorruptible redeemed bodies to heaven...
where we will spend 7 years (pretrib) or 3 1/2 years (approx. prewrath) in heaven with Jesus..... before returning to this earth for the Zechariah 14 event.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told * you. I go to prepare a place for you. 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

During which time, the souls of those who are martyred during the tribulation period arrive in heaven (Revelation 7). There souls are there but they don't receive their eternal redeeemed bodies until the start of the 1000 year millenium, Rev 20:4-6.

In Rev 19, Jesus is pictured riding a white horse... his garments dripping in blood. Who's blood? It is the blood of all the martyred tribulation saints.
It will be an terryfying sight to the 666ers upon the world who killed them.

Anyway, Jesus does return with the saints like it says in Zechariah 14 to rescue the Jews.
Quote:
Note in Rev 12:17 in green below the JEWS have the testimony of Jesus for that second half of the seven years.)

If they have the testimony of Jesus why would Jesus allow them to be persecuted? Let’s review. God pours His spirit out on Israel near the cosmic signs. The cosmic signs occur after the midpoint (AoD) and after the worst tribulation Israel has or will ever see has ended.


Take a look at the first century Christians. Were they not persecuted and killed by the Romans? Why does bad things happen to good people? There have been books written on the topic.

God does pour out his spirit during the timeframe of the cosmic signs.... but how broad is your timeframe? You are reading the verses with a decimal point behind every phrase. You need to step back a bit to see the picture instead of the atoms.

So you are saying that after God pours His spirit out upon the Jews these things happen. They go through the tribulation after God has poured His spirit out upon them…hmmm.


God pours out his Spirit upon all flesh during the seven years... because it is a spiritual battle primarily. The spirit of Antichrist will be in full swing. However, multitudes will come to believe in Jesus during that timeframe...including the Jews.... because God's Spirit will be at work in the world drawing people to Jesus.

Anyway I hope God doesn't pour His spirit out on Israel in a manner that matches your scenario because His spirit seems to cause them to be persecuted and killed for at least 3 1/2 years while they have the spirit of God poured out on them.


Now you are twisting because God's Holy Spirit does not cause them to be persecuted. I never said that He (the Holy Spirit) did. I never inferred that He (the Holy Spirit) did.

They are persecuted because of the spirit of Antichrist
. We war not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities in high places, Ephesian 6. Jesus said the Holy Spirit leads into all truth and testifies about him.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:04 am

Seeker wrote:1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those which sleep (dead) in Jesus will God bring with Him. So Jesus brings saints with Him prior to our rapture. If Jesus brings the saints with Him in both Zec 14 and 1Th4 they are the same event. This only occurs once. This sets the timing to when Jesus returns. It is very near the end of the last 7 years at the battle of Armageddon. You can continue to espouse your theories Doug but they don’t match what the bible says happens.
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I think there's a misunderstanding on where the dead in Christ are. They are not currently with Christ to be coming back with Him. The italicized portion above is where you stopped, but looking at the whole context we can see that the dead in Christ are raised first. That means they were sleeping in the earth, not with Christ. They are resurrected before we are all caught up to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. If they were already with the Lord, why would they be resurrected and then caught up with the rest of us? The dead are asleep right now. They will be awakened with the trump of God as they are raised incorruptable.

What I believe scripture is stating here is that the dead in Christ will be brought with Christ when the rest of us are taken to heaven. We're all going to be caught up together and go to the marriage of the Lamb in heaven. All the dead in Christ will be brought by God with Christ to that event even though they were asleep. We're to comfort each other with these things. We don't lose hope in death, but await to see the glory of God raise them incorruptable to join us all with Him and God will bring us all to Himself. That's what I believe this passage is stating, not that the dead are with Christ now and will come with Him from heaven to rapture us.
    Isaiah 26:19-21
    Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Here we see a resurrection of dead bodies. Notice this takes place BEFORE God's wrath comes. After they're resurrected, they're told to hide because the Lord is coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. We're not appointed to His wrath in several places in scripture.
    John 14:1-3
    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
As we can see in this passage, Yeshua left to prepare a place. There's no mention of us going with Him. In fact His next statement makes it pretty clear we won't be with Him because He promises to come back for us that we will then be with Him. It is from the point of the rapture that we are forever with Him. He's still "building" our future residence until He comes for us after it's ready and the time has come that only the Father knows.
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:26 pm

Hi Triton57,

Are we to change the basic tenants of Christianity because it doesn't match our viewpoints? The souls of those that have died in Christ are with Him now.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


If the OT fathers are with God we are too when we die. Here is another example. This time from the NT. This group is under the altar in heaven speaking with God.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


They have died in Christ and are speaking with God prior to the cosmic signs.

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Jesus's own words telling the thief he would not have to wait until the kingdom to be with Jesus in paradise. Rather he told him "today" he would be in paradise with Jesus.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Douggg on Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:10 pm

Brother Triton,
I think there's a misunderstanding on where the dead in Christ are. They are not currently with Christ to be coming back with Him.


"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?" (paraphrased) Ever hear of that one?

When a Christian dies, his or her soul goes instanteously to heaven to be with Jesus.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:10 pm

Hi Doug,

After meeting the Lord in the air, he takes the resurected saints and raptured saints in their eternal incorruptible redeemed bodies to heaven...
where we will spend 7 years (pretrib) or 3 1/2 years (approx. prewrath) in heaven with Jesus..... before returning to this earth for the Zechariah 14 event.


Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


Is the resurrection you refer to this one referred to as the last day? Seems to be a bunch of Christians in those groups mentioned. Why don’t they get to go before the 7 years or 3 ½ years you mention?

Peace,
Seeker
Last edited by Seeker on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Triton57 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:41 pm

Good points, I hadn't thought of those when I posted. I need to do some studying on that issue some more. Thanks for the correction!
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:56 pm

Hi Triton57,

Hey we are all here to learn. We are all tredding along the same path. More things are being opened it seems. We all still have much to learn. I respect your drive and scripture knowledge and your openess to look back to scripture and reconsider things. Debate is a great way to learn the bible. We search for support of our positions finding nuggets and gems along the way. We don't have to agree it is good to examine both sides and all around things. That's when we put things together.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Triton57 on Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:00 pm

Douggg wrote:Brother Triton,
I think there's a misunderstanding on where the dead in Christ are. They are not currently with Christ to be coming back with Him.


"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?" (paraphrased) Ever hear of that one?

When a Christian dies, his or her soul goes instanteously to heaven to be with Jesus.
    2 Corinthians 5:1-10
    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
I don't know about this verse. I would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord, but reading the context of the beginning, it's centered around the incorruptable body we get, but we don't get that until the resurrection/rapture. Then there's the story of the afterlife we do hear about. It's not terribly detailed, but the rich man isn't in the lake of fire, he's in Hades.
    Luke 16:19-31
    There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
So is heaven Abraham's bosom? Or is that a place the dead go in waiting for the return of Christ to have their souls placed in the new tabernacles which are incorruptable and immortal? Kind of like how Hades is the holding place of the wicked until the great white throne judgment?
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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