Is ENP not the Covenant ? Why not ?

[Triton57]

Are we to change the basic tenants of Christianity because it doesn't match our viewpoints? The souls of those that have died in Christ are with Him now.

I'm not trying to change Christianity, just understand God's Word and His plans since He promised to fill us in on them. I'm a seeker like you.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

It would seem from this passage that death isn't swallowed up in victory until we are raised incorruptable or changed depending on status at the rapture.

Job 28:12,13
But where shall wisdom be found? and where is the place of understanding? Man knoweth not the price thereof; neither is it found in the land of the living.

The "land of the living" always seems to refer to earth. And Christ referred to death as sleep. God is the God of the living because we have all gained eternal life through Yeshua the Christ. Does that mean we don't die because God is the God of the living? Or does it mean that we sleep now and when the resurrection/rapture takes place we are then given our immortal bodies with which to follow Christ to the place He's been preparing for us?

John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Wouldn't that mean that we aren't with Christ until He comes to receive us unto Himself?

[Triton57]

If the OT fathers are with God we are too when we die. Here is another example. This time from the NT. This group is under the altar in heaven speaking with God.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They have died in Christ and are speaking with God prior to the cosmic signs.

I don't argue that our souls are present, just not in our immortal bodies until the resurrection/rapture. Like in Abraham's bosom. I'm just having a hard time with the clear transition when Christ comes to receive us to Himself and the fact that the dead aren't raised until that point. I believe our spirits enter an alternate dimension (for lack of a better term) that's like a dream state, where our consciousness still exists, just without a tabernacle. That doesn't come until the resurrection.

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus's own words telling the thief he would not have to wait until the kingdom to be with Jesus in paradise. Rather he told him "today" he would be in paradise with Jesus.

What is paradise? Is that another term for Abraham's bosom? Christ hadn't gone to heaven yet and so if paradise is the holding place till the resurrection, then Christ would see him there that day. Only Christ would then be resurrected and leave that place for the land of the living again. Then He ascended into heaven while the thief remained in waiting for his resurrected body.

[Triton57]

I'm sorry stevesherri, I've hijacked the thread. If we want to continue this discussion, let's start another thread. Otherwise, let's continue on the subject of the thread. Sorry guys.

[stevesherri]

It's allright, Triton, I'm learning !

[Seeker]

Hi Triton57,

It would seem from this passage that death isn't swallowed up in victory until we are raised incorruptable or changed depending on status at the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul reveals a mystery here. Some will be translated to heaven not all shall die. This occurs at the last trump in the twinkling of an eye. Now it mentions the dead being raised. So here are two conditions to be met to qualify as the fulfillment of this event, last trump and dead being raised.

We will and must change from our old sinful bodies to our new heavenly bodies at this time. This is also when we enter into immortality. Now here is where it gets interesting if you were wondering where I was heading with this.

“When” this corruptible has put on incorruption…..”then” shall be brought to pass the saying that is written., “Death is swallowed up in victory”. So at the time of our translation/rapture the saying that was written will come to pass. Brings the obvious question to mind, where is it written?

Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Here it is in Isaiah 25. “He will swallow up death in victory. We know that this occurs at the time we met the Lord in the air (1Co15:54). At this time the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces, and (this is a big and) the rebuke of his people will be taken from the earth.

Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

Their rebuke is removed they rejoice in the Lord they have been waiting for. 1Co 15 speaks of the arrival of the Lord in conjunction with death being swallowed up in victory as does Isaiah 25. The only two places the words death and victory occur together is Isaiah 25 and 1Co15.

Here are the verses just preceding Isa 25.

Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Isa 25:1 O LORD, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
Isa 25:2 For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
Isa 25:3 Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.
Isa 25:4 For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
Isa 25:5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
Isa 25:10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
Isa 25:11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
Isa 25:12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.

Read together in context this sets the time frame for us. Death swallowed by victory in the context of Isaiah 24 occurs at the end of the last 7 years. Therefore the specific reference to fulfilling the words that were written in only one other place in the bible, Isa 25, ties the timing of our rapture to the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

Hi Seeker, the "final" victory over death does not come until at the Great White Throne Judgement when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire Rev 20:14. Tthe last enemy to be conquered is death.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Douggg]

Hi brother Triton, hell or sheol is the place of the dead (doesn't apply to Christians). Prior to Jesus, righteous men, like lazarus went to the paradise side of hell... called Abraham's bosom. Separated by a great chaism (whilch I speculate to be the bottomless pit) is the other side of hell where the unrighteous go...which is a place of torment. That information is found in the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man.

When Jesus's body was in the tomb for those three days, his spirit went into hell - where he set the captive free.... meaning that they were told about the gospel...whereby he emptied hell.... at least the righteous side of it... and those souls asended into heaven. There is some debate whether that happened or Jesus when there to preach to fallen spiritis from Noah's day of his victory. I go with the setting the captives free thinking.

Anyway hell, that place, is not somewhere where Christians go, because a Christians soul goes straight to heaven.

There is another situation to consider.....what about someone since Jesus's time. who is righteous in their conduct, but never had heard the gosopel, thereby, was not able to accept Jesus ? Where does that person go? IMHO, they go to the Abraham's bosom side of helll and will be raised to receive eternal life - at the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20.... at tje end of the milleium.

They will be Judged according to their works..... on whether they would have accepted Jesus had they been given the opportunity. Jesus said to the disciples, when questioned, if they want to do the work of God then they are to believe in the one who He sent.

"Then they said unto Him, What shall we do that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent." --John 6:28, 29

So, hell has been filling up again since the first century. In Revelation 20:
we read of hell giving up it's dead... before hell itself, no longer of any purpose, itself is cast into the lake of fire.... because after the Great White Throne Judgment.... there will be no more death.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I want to re-emphasize that hell or sheol, neither the righteous nor unrighteous side .... has anything to do with Christians who presently die... their soul goes straight to heaven.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Hi Doug,

Hi Seeker, the "final" victory over death does not come until at the Great White Throne Judgement when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire Rev 20:14. Tthe last enemy to be conquered is death.

Yes I agree Doug. But that still doesn't change that Paul says death has been swallowed up in victory at the time we are raptured.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The fact doesn't change that the specific place that this verse is written is in Isaiah 25 and that is the only place this phrase is used. That has to be the scripture Paul is referring to here in 1Co15. There is no way Isaiah 24-25 takes place any time sooner than the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker

[Triton57]

When Jesus's body was in the tomb for those three days, his spirit went into hell - where he set the captive free.... meaning that they were told about the gospel...whereby he emptied hell.... at least the righteous side of it... and those souls asended into heaven. There is some debate whether that happened or Jesus when there to preach to fallen spiritis from Noah's day of his victory. I go with the setting the captives free thinking.

Anyway hell, that place, is not somewhere where Christians go, because a Christians soul goes straight to heaven.

So are they helping Yeshua and the Father build now?

John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I don't see a promise here to be with Christ in heaven, I see a promise that Christ hasn't left us here permanently and that He will come back for us once the place is prepared.

Do you have a scripture stating that Abraham's bosom was emptied and nullified as a place for the just to go when dead? Is there some reason why the story of Lazarus and the rich man no longer represents the afterlife before Christ comes again and resurrects the dead in Christ? Why are they being resurrected on His return? Do we need our physical incorruptable bodies to be in heaven, that's how Christ ascended.

There is another situation to consider.....what about someone since Jesus's time. who is righteous in their conduct, but never had heard the gosopel, thereby, was not able to accept Jesus ? Where does that person go? IMHO, they go to the Abraham's bosom side of helll and will be raised to receive eternal life - at the Great White Throne Judgement in Revelation 20.... at tje end of the milleium.

Abraham's bosom seems to be reserved for those accepting the Word of God, Luke 16:29 "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."

As for those who never hear the gospel, I believe the Holy Spirit is able to speak to those sheep who know His voice. God knows the heart and He will lose none that are His from before the foundation of the world. No evangelist has to speak the words for the Spirit to reach someone. God is just so I'm not too worried about it.

They will be Judged according to their works..... on whether they would have accepted Jesus had they been given the opportunity. Jesus said to the disciples, when questioned, if they want to do the work of God then they are to believe in the one who He sent.

"Then they said unto Him, What shall we do that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent." --John 6:28, 29

So, hell has been filling up again since the first century. In Revelation 20:
we read of hell giving up it's dead... before hell itself, no longer of any purpose, itself is cast into the lake of fire.... because after the Great White Throne Judgment.... there will be no more death.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I want to re-emphasize that hell or sheol, neither the righteous nor unrighteous side .... has anything to do with Christians who presently die... their soul goes straight to heaven.

I'm just trying to understand the two different impressions the Word gives. It's said to be absent from the body is present with the Lord, but the dead aren't resurrected until Christ comes here. The only way it fits right now is that, like the Holy Spirit's presence with us, so too is He present (trinity) in our death and waiting for His physical return to give us our incorruptable bodies. Nobody has them yet except for Christ. Otherwise, why would any be resurrected at His return? They would already have the new bodies. More research needed. Thanks for the discussion!

[Douggg]

Hi Borther Triton,

I'm just trying to understand the two different impressions the Word gives. It's said to be absent from the body is present with the Lord, but the dead aren't resurrected until Christ comes here. The only way it fits right now is that, like the Holy Spirit's presence with us, so too is He present (trinity) in our death and waiting for His physical return to give us our incorruptable bodies. Nobody has them yet except for Christ. Otherwise, why would any be resurrected at His return? They would already have the new bodies. More research needed. Thanks for the discussion!

What is dead and in the grave of EVERYBODY - right now? It is the body. Not the soul. The soul of EVERYBODY is either with the Lord - if a person is saved. Or the soul is in sheoul...hell... if a person has not received Jesus. That's only TWO places....to consider... heaven or hell.

Jesus's body was not left in the grave because he was the firstfruits.... as the bible says. The rest of us will have our bodies resurrected or changed in the twinkling of an eye if we are alive when the event of 1thess4:15-18 takes place.

Do you have a scripture stating that Abraham's bosom was emptied and nullified as a place for the just to go when dead? Is there some reason why the story of Lazarus and the rich man no longer represents the afterlife before Christ comes again and resurrects the dead in Christ? Why are they being resurrected on His return? Do we need our physical incorruptable bodies to be in heaven, that's how Christ ascended.

No, we don't need our incorruptable boides, for our souls to go to heaven... evidenced by the souls that John saw in Revelation of those in heaven who died during the great tribulation.... Revelation 7.

The soul does have some sort of form there, because the multitudes in Revelation 7... their souls are pictured. But in that form, it is not the promise of God... that redemption of the body will occure. God is correcting what that Satan wanted to destroy of God's creation. Satan instrument for destruction was-is ....sin. It is in everything... even the earth itself must be redeemed... it too will be destroyed.... and be made anew.

I am not saying that Abraham' bosom was nullified....it still exists...but it never was the place that CHRISTIANS go. The story of Lazurus and the rich man...was before there were any Christians. One has to keep that in mind.

The conclusion of the story of Lazurus and the Rich man itself (that the rich man's relatives wouldn't listen Moses so they wouldn't also accept the gospel message)... and that hell doesn't give up its those who have died "souls" UNTIL the final Great Whtie Throne Judgement at the end of the millenium... indicates that hell is still operational.

What Paul said regarding being present with the Lord when absent from the body (until the resurrection of the body occures) .... applies to Christians....of where out souls go when a Christian physically dies. We have that comfort. And that when the resurrection and redemption of the body that is now in the grave takes place.... those who are alive at that time... won't be left out... we also have that comfort.
"Victory in Jesus" ....beautiful words.
http://www.altavista.com/audio/results? ... gs=0&kls=0

Peace,

Doug L.

[Douggg]

Hi Doug,

Hi Seeker, the "final" victory over death does not come until at the Great White Throne Judgement when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire Rev 20:14. Tthe last enemy to be conquered is death.

Yes I agree Doug. But that still doesn't change that Paul says death has been swallowed up in victory at the time we are raptured.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The fact doesn't change that the specific place that this verse is written is in Isaiah 25 and that is the only place this phrase is used. That has to be the scripture Paul is referring to here in 1Co15. There is no way Isaiah 24-25 takes place any time sooner than the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker

I agree with most of what you say. I wasn't actually trying to disagree with my previous post...just giving some additional information and comment... which I knew you are already aware of... of course

Isaiah 25 is about what God will do for certain.... but you are reading the passage in order to prove the timing of the rapture....which is not the intent of that verse.

As I have said you are looking at atoms and missing the picture sometimes. Take a look at Daniel 2 as a case in point of how a person can mis-take verses in the ot. Daniel said to Nebuchadnzezzar....

Dane2:38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Was Nebuhadnezzars ever rule over every single human being on earth back in his day? No, of course not. But within his realm, he was. That is an example of how a person... if the verse is taken point blank... can walk away is an erroneous notion... and claim to have perfect biblical basis.

Isaiah....and many other end times... and....Day of the Lord events... have to be read from that which is given in the new testament.... as the new testament is that which explains the old testament. What do you think???? Your opinion????

Peace,

Doug L.

[Triton57]

Another scripture I came across again today...

Hebrews 11:36-40
And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Isn't this stating that we are all changed together? They won't be made perfect without us. We will all be changed together. We won't preceed those dead in Christ and the dead in Christ don't preceed us.

[Seeker]

Hi Doug,

Isaiah....and many other end times... and....Day of the Lord events... have to be read from that which is given in the new testament.... as the new testament is that which explains the old testament. What do you think???? Your opinion????

The OT is the foundation for the NT. The NT revealed mysteries from the OT. Think of how many times Jesus and the disciples quoted the OT. There were more things and greater details revealed on some things in the NT. But some things were just briefly mentioned in the NT and explained in detail in the OT.

The AoD is a good example. Jesus mentions it in one verse but Daniel gives quite a bit of details concerning the AoD. We can’t just assume the NT replaces the OT. A further revealing of something does not make what it is revealing invalid. This is why I look for time stamps constantly when studying scripture.

These time stamps keep me in the zoomed out general picture. Yes I am picking at atoms but couldn’t do so without a decent understanding of the object that the atoms make up. You can pretty well bet that I have supporting scripture for most everything I post. I have more Isaiah to show you.

Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
Isa 25:10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
Isa 25:11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
Isa 25:12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.
Isa 26:1 In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.

In that day has to be referring to the day which started a few chapters back in Isaiah. I am not really sure where it starts; sometimes I think it actually starts back in Isaiah 13. But we can say that Isa 26 is directly referring back to Isaiah 25 thus a continuation of our story.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Isa 27:2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.

The story continues into Isaiah 27.

Isa 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isa 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

The Lord is dwelling in the holy mount at Jerusalem. Beyond a shadow of a doubt this occurs after the 7 years have ended. This is the same day spoken of in Isaiah 25. The day death is swallowed up in victory. The day the corruptible are changed into incorruptible (1Co15:54).

Isa 28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
Isa 28:6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

And on into Isaiah 29 we go.

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Anyway I am sure you get the picture. These things described in “that day” are definitely post 70th week.

Peace,
Seeker

[Triton57]

I don't have time to respond now, I'll be back. I just wanted to say something real quick.

I guess I view death as falling asleep. When we sleep, we dream. We aren't really in these places we dream and many times they never happened to our knowledge, but we still experience them even though our bodies are unconscious and in a death-like state. When we wake up, they may have even affected our conscious thought.

In death, we sleep. Our bodies remain in the earth while we "dream" a shared dream with those who died in Christ of Abraham's bosom. The only difference is this is reality, just in a "dream state."

When Christ comes for His bride, the last trump will wake the dead and they will be raised in their incorruptable bodies and taken, with those living who are changed, to meet the Lord in the air. This verse is not representative of the rapture, but it shows the relationship of sleeping and waking as related to death. (The only time the unjust are raised is the great white throne judgment after the millennium. Revelation 20:4,5)

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 14 makes it clear that Christ has left to prepare a place for us. It is also clear that Christ promises to return one day to gather us unto Himself so that we can be with Him from that time on.

John 14:1-3
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

If we're already with Him when we die, why would He be promising to come receive us to Himself so we can be with Him?

[Triton57]

Back to the original discussion...

:answerthequestion:

Okay, brother Steve, I will tell you why the ENP is not the confiriming of the covenant of Daniel 9.

It is because in the midst of the seven years the Antichrist breaks the covenant that he had confirmed stopping the daily sacrifice. What covenant established the daily sacrifice?

Well, it wasn't any peace covenant - that established the sacrifices in the TEMPLE to begin with - THINK! -

The Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, declares that he is god, and also that the Abomination of Desolation is setup to be worshipped.... i.e. IMHO the man's face of the image in Daniel 2, was that of the Antichrist, not Nebuchanezzar, as the image is what the false prohet has the world build, but that is another topic. There is no peace covenant spoken of in Daniel 9. People are assuming that because the Antichrist in Daniel 8 brings many people to destruction via peace, that the covenant in Daniel 9 is a peace covenant....
which is also the premise of the ENP notion. However, the covenant that will be confirmed is the one that established the animal sacrifices - remember Daniel 9 is specifically relavent to the Jews - is the MT SINAI covenant.

The Antichrist will be a Jew who comes to their rescue riding a white horse and they will think that he is their long awaited messiah. He will deceive them in to thinking that yes he is indeed their messiah - by confirming the MT SINAI covenant which is the basis for Judaism - so that the animal sacrifices will be reinstituted, but stopped when the Antichrist 3 1/2 years later declares himself to be god. The animal sacrifices that are going to be stopped in Daniel 9 have nothing to do with the ENP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are they going to start up animal sacrifices again on Jan 1, 2007?

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Is there anywhere in this verse that states the confirmed covenant with many has anything to do with the restarting of the daily sacrifice?

All it says is that the antichrist will confirm a covenant with many for one week. Then in the midst of that week, the daily sacrifice is stopped.

Why can't a 7-year confirmed covenant with many start, and then sometime before the AoD, a deal made with Israel to allow the temple and sacrifices to start? I think it's just an assumption that the covenant has anything to do with allowing the temple/sacrifices. Assuming that it is connected to the covenant would eliminate the ENP from the possibilities now, I just don't believe scripture makes that assumption valid.

[1whowaits]

Triton, you are correct, there is no indication in scripture that the covenant has anything to do with the reinstitution of the sacrificial system. And scripture does not say that the stopping of the sacrifice is a breaking of the covenant, just that in the middle of the time period of the covenant, in the middle of the 7, the sacrifice is stopped.

The Jewish people do not need an agreement or permission to restart the sacrificial system. They just need a complete and total defeat of the muslim nations that would oppose the rebuilding of the temple. No covenant by anyone would stop the muslim world from opposing Israel's rebuilding of the temple and reinstituting the sacrificial system, no matter what the economic rewards were. This is a religious issue for the muslims and it can only be resolved by force.

The only other possible mention of the covenant in scripture could be Isa. 28 which mentions the 'covenant with death' that annulled. The covenant with death would appear to be a covenant of protection- 'When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us'.

[Ready1]

Why can't a 7-year confirmed covenant with many start, and then sometime before the AoD, a deal made with Israel to allow the temple and sacrifices to start? I think it's just an assumption that the covenant has anything to do with allowing the temple/sacrifices. Assuming that it is connected to the covenant would eliminate the ENP from the possibilities now, I just don't believe scripture makes that assumption valid.

Agreed

[Douggg]

Hi 1ww,

The Jewish people do not need an agreement or permission to restart the sacrificial system. They just need a complete and total defeat of the muslim nations that would oppose the rebuilding of the temple. No covenant by anyone would stop the muslim world from opposing Israel's rebuilding of the temple and reinstituting the sacrificial system, no matter what the economic rewards were. This is a religious issue for the muslims and it can only be resolved by force.

Okay, let's say that the ENP is the covenant of Daniel 9.... then Gog/Magog occures and the Jews rebuild the temple and start the animal sacrifices again.

Gog/Magog and restarting the animal sacrifices will have to happen within 3 1/2 years.... so how's that 7 years of Ezekiel 39 going to apply? Under the ENP scenario.... the 7 years of Ezekiel 39 would have to overlap well into the millenium. I don't see that as credible... since the 7 years is identical to the same times of the multitude of other end times prophecies... all based upon the 7 years or half of the seven years.

Peace,

Doug L,

[1whowaits]

Doug, the question would be is the ENP the covenant or is it the covenant confirmed? The scripture appears to leave a little wiggle room in that the event that begins the 7 is the confirming or strengthening of the covenant, not the initial implemantation of the covenant. Is the ENP the initial implementation of the covenant or is it the confirming of the covenant? I don't know, but I suspect this is the initial implementation of the covenant.

If the covenant is implemented, then something would have to occur to make it necessary for the covenant to be reconfirmed. If an event like Gog-magog were to occur, it would disrupt the agreement and likely the world economy causing a need for the covenant to be reconfirmed in the face of the new world situation that comes out of Gog-magog.

The 7 begins not when the covenant is initially implemented, but at its confirmation or reconfirmation. If this were to occur after Gog then the 7 years of weapons burning would fit quite well.

Also notice that Dan. 9 is silent on whether the AC makes the initial implementation of the covenant or someone else does. Dan. 9 appears to suggest that the AC only cofirms or strengthens the original agreement, not that he comes up with or implements the original covenant. So don't pin the tail on Solana yet, someone else may be waiting in the wings.

There would also appear to be an unstated implication that, even if the covenant were reconfirmed, if that reconfirmation is not done by the AC, that event is not the confirming described in Dan. 9. The reconfirmation would appear to have to be performed by the individual who is the AC in order for the 7 years to begin. If it ain't the AC, then it ain't the confirmin'.

Also interesting is the belief of the Jews that Gog-magog and armageddon are the same battle and also that the messiah will come sometime around the time of Gog. Also anyone who helps rebuild the temple and helps regathering the Israeli people to Israel, is a candidate for the messiah.

If Gog-magog occurs early and someone comes forward after that event and confirms the ENP or ENP like agreement with Israel, and also helps in the temple rebuilding and the return of Jews to Israel, it may be possible to pin that tail before the AOD. Maybe.

But anyone who does attempt to suggest that this individual is a false messiah will likely become a pariah. After all, this covenant confirmer will have fulfilled prophecy, or so it may appear.

[Seeker]

Hi Doug and 1whowaits,

The Gog war is preceded by safety for all that dwell in Israel.

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Eze 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

The status of Israel, when Gog first moves toward her, is one of complete safety. Un-walled villages, no bars or gates. There hasn’t been a period of time that matches that description since Israel was reborn in 1948. Before the Gog war we will have a state of complete rest and safety in Israel. We have a long time to wait for that condition unless somehow Israel and her Arab enemies quit fighting one another.

I agree with the Jews 1whowaits. Ezekiel 38-39 speaks of the AC and the end times. There are events described after the Gog war that are also described in the book of Revelation and elsewhere in the bible. When Israel witnesses God destroying the enemies that have nearly destroyed Israel they turn back to God.

Eze 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

Gog has been prophesied about by the prophets of old. The prophesy, includes that they will be brought against the land of Israel. Search for it. You will find many accounts of a group of nations aligning against Israel in the prophets of old writings. They tell the same basic story that Ezekiel does.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

At the same time Gog invades Israel God’s fury comes up in His face. In His jealousy and the fire of His wrath He will have spoken. There will be a great earthquake in Israel. All creatures on earth, including men, shake at the presence of God.

The mountains will be thrown down, the steep places fall, and every wall will fall to the ground. God will rain on him and his coalition; an overflowing rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus God will magnify Himself, and He will be known in the eyes of many nations, they will know He is the Lord God at that time.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Ezekiel’s description looks very similar to this one in Rev 16. We have a great earthquake, mountains not found, and great hail out of heaven.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Compare to Ezekiel.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

After this feathered feast the house of Israel will know that the Lord is their God from that day forward.

Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

This is the day God has spoken of. God sends fire on Magog. His holy name is known in midst of Israel, He will not let them pollute His name any longer, and the heathen will know that He is the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God has mercy on the whole house of Israel and is jealous for His holy name. They will know the Lord is their God and He will not hide His face from them any longer. For He has poured His spirit upon the house of Israel.

To suggest that these events occur and then God allows anyone to touch a hair of one of their heads just doesn’t match the words that are written. After Gog is defeated no-one touches Israel I assure you. These events occur just prior to the beginning of the millennium. This puts this in the same time frame as Armageddon and indeed they are the same battle. Gog is the one God spoke about who will come up against Israel just before He brings Israel back to Him. This is the day God speaks of throughout the bible when He will defeat the enemies of Israel personally.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

As can be seen in my previous post, Ezekiel 38 speaks of the same time frame that the AC attacks Israel at Armageddon. Ezekiel 38-39 does speak of Armageddon just as the Jews believe. That being the case we are fortunate unless we believe that the ENP is the covenant.

Ezekiel 38 gives a very specific group of nations who align against Israel in this last epic battle. Each of those nations is currently Muslim. Gog is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Turkey/Armenia region). Persia is Iran, Ethiopia and or Sudan, Libya. Actually four or 5 of the names can be attributed to the general Turk area and interestingly the area of the descendants of Japeth.

Gog is the one spoken of who leads the war and is the same as the one who leads Armageddon which we know is the AC. Since the AC confirms the covenant he would have to had to be involved in the ENP. The ENP is a European led initiative. The AC is of middle eastern origin and is not involved in the ENP.

The conditions of Eze 38 require Israel to be in a state of peace prior to the beginning of this war. The covenant is broken at the 3.5 year mark.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The AC is given power over the saints for 3 ½ years (Dan 7) beginning at the AoD (Matt 24, Dan 9). The temple and holy city Jerusalem are tread under foot for 3 ½ years (Rev 11). Israel could not be considered resting safely during the 3 ½ years Jerusalem is trodden under foot. The timeframe of the AC’s power, 3 ½ years Rev 13, runs parallel to the trampling of Jerusalem as well as the two witnesses testimony.

The time of peace we are trying to find in Israel cannot be during the last 3 ½ years. That time of peace does not exist currently. It must exist sometime from now but before the 3.5 year point. If a middle-eastern war were to break out suddenly it wouldn’t be just after a time of peace therefore would not be the Gog battle.

There has to be a peace treaty sometime before the Gog war to set the conditions stated in Eze 38 for Israel. The ENP does not establish this peace that is to be broken by Gog. Gog is the AC who only has power for 3 ½ years against the saints. He can’t be at war with the saints until after the 3.5 year point. There is little risk to Israel prior to the 3.5 yr mark he can’t touch God’s people until the midpoint. They would be safe from him during the first 3 ½ years.

Isn’t it reasonable to conclude that the covenant will establish this peace with Israel and many of her enemies that Eze 38 requires? When trying to put together chronologies of the last 7 years one is hard pressed to find anything that can be said to occur in the first 3 ½ years. If all the war parts are in the last 3 ½ years wouldn’t, by contrast, the first 3 ½ years be peace?

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

Hi brother 1ww,

Also interesting is the belief of the Jews that Gog-magog and armageddon are the same battle and also that the messiah will come sometime around the time of Gog. Also anyone who helps rebuild the temple and helps regathering the Israeli people to Israel, is a candidate for the messiah.

Armageddon? Not so. That is a new testament prophecy. The Jews (Judaism) don't buy into that. There is very little in the way of end-times prophecy understanding by the Jews....in terms of a comprehenisve picture especially. You can do an internet search - if you find "any" Jewish site that focuses on the end times prophecies, then please let me know.

I don't disagree with you about the connection of rebuilding the temple and regathering of the Israeli - as being a candidate for the messiah, though.

....and also that the messiah will come sometime around the time of Gog

That's what I am saying.... the Antichrist will emerge concurrent with Gog/Magog as having come to the rescue of Jews (as a matter of deception) and that God destroys the enemies of Irsael because he has arrived (in their rationale).

The Antichrist as their perceived messiah confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, which is the basis of Judaism, rebuilds the temple, and the sacrifices reinstituted.

If the covenant is implemented, then something would have to occur to make it necessary for the covenant to be reconfirmed. If an event like Gog-magog were to occur, it would disrupt the agreement and likely the world economy causing a need for the covenant to be reconfirmed in the face of the new world situation that comes out of Gog-magog.

The 7 begins not when the covenant is initially implemented, but at its confirmation or reconfirmation. If this were to occur after Gog then the 7 years of weapons burning would fit quite well.

The ENP doesn't fit at all. Even with the biggest shoe-horn in the world.

The ENP says nothing about either rebuilding the temple nor reinstituting animal sacrifices to start with... so initially it is not the covenant, nor confirmed it is not the covenant, nor reconfirmed it is not the covenant. Economics is NOT the issue of Daniel 9:26-27, but worship.... which is the animal sacrifices.

If Gog-magog occurs early and someone comes forward after that event and confirms the ENP or ENP like agreement with Israel, and also helps in the temple rebuilding and the return of Jews to Israel, it may be possible to pin that tail before the AOD. Maybe.

But anyone who does attempt to suggest that this individual is a false messiah will likely become a pariah. After all, this covenant confirmer will have fulfilled prophecy, or so it may appear.

And who would do such a thing, but Christians? The Christians may be gone, and will be gone according to pretribbers... so the Antichrist will have no accusers. .....except.....for the two witnesses.....who are going to point to him and say that he is a false messiah.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Douggg]

Hi Seeker,

The status of Israel, when Gog first moves toward her, is one of complete safety. Un-walled villages, no bars or gates. There hasn’t been a period of time that matches that description since Israel was reborn in 1948. Before the Gog war we will have a state of complete rest and safety in Israel. We have a long time to wait for that condition unless somehow Israel and her Arab enemies quit fighting one another.

I understand your point. But there is a paradox of peace right now in Israel. Christian tour groups go to Israel every day. Tourism is one of Israel's biggest businesses. And there are shopping malls, and synagogues, restaruents, kids going to school, etc. I think that they are in a paradoxial state of peace right now.... as compared to their ordeals just prior to 1948 during WWII.

Israel is a land of unwalled villages. The villages aren't walled.... because the entire country has become walled.... which has been pretty effective in reducing Arab terrorism.

Seeker, you still can't find that seven years of Ezekiel 39 anywhere in the bible, except for the last week of Daniel 9.

Peace,

Doug L.

[njfishwatchTurkey&Isr]

Eze 38:20 "The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground.

I think this passage contains the biggest evidence for the timing of this attack, yet it always gets overlooked. Seeker pointed it out, but I have seen no response (may have overlooked).

EVERYTHING ON EARTH WILL SHAKE AT HIS PRESENCE.


The only place I can find in Scripture that speaks of weapons being destroyed refers to the millenial reign when weapons are turned into tools for farming and the such.

Mic 4:3 And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

Isa 2:4 And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war.
Isa 2:5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.


The whole argument that fuel will not be needed during the millenial reign is put to rest with the above verses. Why would they need pruninghooks and plowshares?

[Douggg]

nj, I have already made a response to those issues in this thread dated....Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:24 pm

The only place I can find in Scripture that speaks of weapons being destroyed refers to the millenial reign when weapons are turned into tools for farming and the such.

You make an exact argument..... for the Jewish (Judaism) POV, but I don't think you realize it. I know that is not your intent...but to argue a non pretrib Gog/Magog.... in spite of the glaring issue of the 7 years.

Ezekiel 39 refers to Israel not needing fuel for 7 years..... and nothing to do with the nations destroying their weapons. Because it is God who destroys the weapons of Gog/Magog... not the nations destroying their own weapons. The fuel will be the diesel and gas from all of the tanks, and motorized vehicles that will litter the land.

Back to your rationale. Right after Gog/Magog and the beginning of the 7 years, of buring the fuel left over from the invading force, the Antichrist will use those same passages you reference to pacify the nations... by peace he will destroy many right? As well as the Jews will use those passages to think that they have entered the messianic period.

Your exact rationale is the same that the Jews will think.... that Gog/Magog precedes the messianic reign. That's what you are reasoning aren't you.... using bible passages from the ot that Gog/Magog just precedes the messianic reign?

Put yourself in the Jews position, NJ, just after Gog/Magog. All of their enemies gone. The Jews will be in total control of the temple mount. Their perceived messiah - on hand. Why would they think that the world has not entered the messianic period?

Peace,

Doug L.

[Douggg]

nj, I would like to add. You see Gog/Magog occuring during the second half of the 7 years, if I recall. If so that would mean that the temple has been rebuilt and Jews worshipping upon the temple mount.

Please takes some time and look at these two video's. After watching those videos, do you see ANY chance of a temple being rebuilt... as long as Islam exists? But suppose Islam suddenly did not exist, like because of Gog/Magog, then what are the possibilities with the Jews in total control of the temple mount, their enemies eradicated, and the perceived messiah on hand?

These are the realities of the situation, NJ. These videos bring home the point of why the seven years are not going to begin until after the destruction of Islam.

http://video.mpegnation.com/a0017842738 ... 52690.html
http://video.mpegnation.com/a0018622314 ... 43523.html

Peace,

Doug L.

[BeTheMoon]

I haven't watched the video in a long time, but doesn't Chaim Richman say the holy of holies is where the dome of the rock now stands? If so, what if he's wrong? There are other people who think the location is elsewhere.

[Douggg]

I haven't watched the video in a long time, but doesn't Chaim Richman say the holy of holies is where the dome of the rock now stands? If so, what if he's wrong? There are other people who think the location is elsewhere.

I just checked out the temple institute web site. Use this link. The spot is desinated by the letter "A", mouse over the left hand column. The answer is "yes".

http://www.templeinstitute.org/birds_eye.htm

what if he is wrong? I don't know all the ramifications if he is. But he seems to carry a lot of clout. He has his own "temple talk" segment on Israel Radio, look in the left hand column. http://www.israelnationalradio.com/
and I think he is a member of the Sanhederin.

Being aware of the thinking, the mindset, of the Jews is critical IMHO in understanding the end-times prophecies...of how the Antichrist will deceive them. We don't have to agree with their theology to listen. Here's another site that Chaim Richman is associated with... http://universaltorah.com/programming/s ... datetitle/
We have to keep in mind - it is their rabbinic sages (who they put on a pedestal) who have lead the people away from Jesus - so while the rabbi's may sound very very intelligent and articulate - it is within the teachings of rabbinic Judaism, which basically cannot be wisdom because their teachings and rationale reject Jesus.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Hi Doug,

Seeker, you still can't find that seven years of Ezekiel 39 anywhere in the bible, except for the last week of Daniel 9.

What is it with you and these 7 years? Take your view for a minute and compare to scripture. You say the weapons are burnt throughout the last 7 years.

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Show me anywhere in scripture that supports weapons being burnt during the last 3 ½ years by citizens of Israel. After you post all the scripture you have showing weapons being burnt in the last 3 ½ years I will show you all the scripture I have showing weapons being used against Israel in the last 3 ½ years.

Peace,
Seeker

[njfishwatchTurkey&Isr]

I knew it,


EVERYTHING ON THE EARTH WILL SHAKE AT HIS PRESENCE.

[Seeker]

Hi NJ,

Yes they breeze right past every creature on earth shaking at the presence of God....lol. I'll try it one more time.

Hi Doug,

If I recall your scenario correctly you have the Gog war preceding the last 7 years. The Gog war results in Israel accepting a false peace with the AC at the beginning of the last 7 years if I understand you correctly.

There is a time when all in Israel are at rest and dwelling safely (Eze 38:11). This is right before the Gog battle. Then Gog attacks according to you prior to the beginning of the 7 years. How long do you estimate the Gog war lasts? Trying to picture how long before the last 7 years this era of peace is in Israel.

So we have peace first, then war with Gog, then peace again (AC), then war again (trib Jesus spoke of), then another war Armageddon. I am just trying to grasp what you are saying. At the end of the Gog war we have this.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Israel enjoys a period of peace, then Gog attacks. God intervenes and destroys Gog. Everything on earth shakes at the presence of God, the mountains are thrown down, the steep places fall, and every wall falls to the ground. God destroyed Gog with overflowing rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

After this war; God is known in the eyes of many nations, the heathen will know He is the Holy One of Israel, God will make His name known in the midst of Israel, He will not let them pollute His name any longer, it will be the day God has spoken of, it will be the day that God will be glorified, the heathen will see the judgment that was executed and that it was the hand of God that delivered it, God will have mercy on the whole house of Israel, He will be jealous for His holy name, Israel will know that the Lord is their God, God will no longer hide His face from Israel, and God will have poured out His spirit on the house of Israel.

And according to you this all happens before the last 7 years begin. Let me ask you why would God allow any one to harm Israel after all these things have taken place? Wouldn’t the AC have to have more power than the spirit of God poured out on Israel to persecute her? Which heathen nation would rise up against God after every creature has shaken at the presence of God, the mountains have fallen and every wall has fallen. The heathen know it was the hand of God that did these things.

Doug there is a time to put common sense over ones view points and this would be that time.

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

Hi Seeker,

If I recall your scenario correctly you have the Gog war preceding the last 7 years. The Gog war results in Israel accepting a false peace with the AC at the beginning of the last 7 years if I understand you correctly.

No, no, you are not understanding me correctly. peace.

After Gog/Magog, Israel is not accepting the Antichrist on the basis of any sort of peace treaty.... but they are accepting him on the basis of what Judaism teaches about the moshiach (messiah) and why they reject Jesus. That's why it's important to understand how the Jews think regarding the messiah.

They believe that the messiah will be like king David. A military king. Who fights the battles of God. Who helps rebuild the temple. Who is an expert in Torah, which also includes Kababllah in their eyes - remember in Daniel 8, how the Antichrist understands dark sentences?

When the Antichrist shows up - in my thinking he will meet their expectation and what is written in Daniel 8 about the AC waxing strong to the south and east. Remember, they are expecting a military king - who fights the battles of God. So, I theorize, with good biblical basis that the Antichrist will lead a WEU reaction force assembled in western Greece or Macedonia when the Gog/Magog forces begin to mass. When Gog/Maog attacks, the Antichrist will lead his force southeast to repel them.... but God destroys Gog/Magog before he gets there.

Nonetheless, the Jews will see God's destruction of Gog/Magog as confirmation that the Antichrist - who will be a Jew - and outspoken when the time comes about leading the WEU reaction force to defend his people - that he is their long awaited messiah.

The Jews are not going to accept him on the basis of any peace plan... but on the misconception that he is their messiah. Jesus said that the Jews reject him, but another coming in his own name - they will accept.

Now I don't disagree that the Antichrist's program once he arrives in Israel includes one of establishing worldwide peace and order. I think that he will be pretty convincing to the nations - dominated by the Europeans - that breaking whatever the new world order will be at time will not be tolerated... after all in Revelation 6, he is pictured as riding a white horse winning the battle....what battle? In my mind. the battle against the residual forces of Islam, the terrorists groups that will linger in ohter parts of the world after Gog/Magog. It says in Daniel 11, that he has success against the strongest fortresses.

To me, having discussed and studing in length the last four years DIRECTLY with Jews of Judaism.... it is not a peace covenant that the Antichrist confirms, but the Mt. Sinai covenant. The event of Gog/Magog which basically destroys Arab Islam, and the Islamic presence - there is no need for a peace plan at that point to allow for the rebuilding of the temple.... it will be clear sailing and an unobstructed path for the Jews to do so. See what I mean?

I ask you to imagine a world without the presence of Islam in the middle east, right after a pre-trib Gog/Magog, if you will. How would you see such a world? To me, that will be the world in which the Antichrist will materialize, to begin that last 7 years. Did you look at those two videos?

Peace,

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Hi Doug,

So, I theorize, with good biblical basis that the Antichrist will lead a WEU reaction force assembled in western Greece or Macedonia when the Gog/Magog forces begin to mass. When Gog/Maog attacks, the Antichrist will lead his force southeast to repel them.... but God destroys Gog/Magog before he gets there.

Theorizing and imagining are fun no doubt. But in all seriousness did you fail to notice the scriptures I posted. Did you not read what it said about God receiving Israel to Himself? I point you to the words of the bible and you refer me to a video of man. Which is of greater weight the words of God or a video of man?

Doug now you seem to be saying that the AC and Gog exist in the same timeframe. They are both massed and ready to head to Israel. But the AC is too late God destroys Gog before he can get there. God has mercy on the whole house of Israel, pours his spirit out upon Israel then allows the AC to persecute Israel at a later point in time. This story sure is getting interesting.

So now the AC and Gog are both poised to battle in Israel before the last 7 years begin. The AC is ready to step in and be the hero of the day but God beats him to it. So if God saved Israel, not the AC, why would Israel look to the AC as their Messiah prior to the last 7 years beginning? I am getting confused....

Peace,
Seeker

[1whowaits]

Seeker, Doug, NJ, how y'all doin'? Just some thoughts on Gog and everyone on the earth shaking. This passage in Ezekiel 9 is prefaced with the statement- 'I declare at that time there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.' The beginning of this statement places the sequence of events in Israel.

God appears to continue to describe who and what location will be affected by what He is doing- the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, and every creature on the ground, in Israel. The next statement is made in that context- 'all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence.'

This statement 'all the people on the face of the earth' can be taken 1 of 2 ways- either all the people of the world, or all the people on the surface of the ground, will tremble. As the passage begins with 'in the land of Israel' it is most likely that the passage is stating that 'all the people on the surface of the ground' in Israel will tremble.

The statement following this says the mountains will be overturned but God goes on and states 'I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains', again placing the events in Israel, the mountains fall in Israel, not the whole world. God further states that he will rain down judgement on Gog, and since Gog at this time is in Israel, this event occurs in Israel.

The context of this passage would appear to be of events that occur in Israel. It would appear from the context, that these events are not occurring all over the world. Altough the nations of the world see what God is doing, it would not appear from the context of this passage, that the nations of the world are experiencing this destruction.

As far as Israel not being touched after God pours out His spirit, it would depend on when that event happened. What if Gog came early in the 70th week, and Israel understood that God did exist and did fight for her, how would she respond? Israel would most likely respond by doing what she knows, she would rebuild the temple and reinstitute the OT sacrificial system.

Israel knows God as Yaweh, they do not know God as Jesus Christ. Israel would know the Lord her God as she knew Him in the past, but not as He wishes her to know Him. So even though Israel 'knows' God, she still would not have necessarily accepted God's messiah.

God also says 'I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord'. Even though the nations 'know' that God is the Lord, there is no implication that they will worship or accept Him, just that they know He exists.

As far as the Lord pouring out His spirit on Israel, i believe this does imply that there are Israelis that will come to Jesus Christ. But not all of the Israelis will accept Christ as saviour as Zech 13 suggests that there will only be 1/3 of the nation that will be 'refined in the fire' and will say 'the Lord is our God'.

It would then appear that the majority of the nation of Israel, altough they know the Lord is God, will not accept Christ as saviour or messiah. They may rebuild the temple and reinstitute the sacrificial system, but they will not return to the Lord as he commands.

It would appear that instead the majority may accept the false messiah, as Jesus said -'if one comes in his own name you will accept him' and in Dan 11- 'He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. His armed forces...will abolish the daily sacrifice... they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant...'

If Gog comes early in the 70th week, Israel may know who God is but it would appear that the majority would still reject His messiah and accept the false messiah. It would then be possible for the AC or anyone to attack Israel because the majority really has not returned to God in the manner he commands.

But some will accept the true messiah and some provision would have to be made for them, a place in the desert perhaps?. Rev. does suggest that the 144,000 know Jesus and are sealed, sealing being a term for receiving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4 :30). This is stated as happening at a time before any harm comes on the land or sea, which would imply the time period before the AOD or even earlier, perhaps at the beginning of the 70th week.

So Israel can 'know the Lord' and still be attacked by other nations. The majority may know the Lord in their mind but not their heart, they follow rules made up by men. The minority may return to God as he commands and accept His messiah, and they will remain faithful and not allow His name to be profaned.

This would be the possible scenario if Gog comes early in the 70th wek.

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

As far as the Lord pouring out His spirit on Israel, i believe this does imply that there are Israelis that will come to Jesus Christ. But not all of the Israelis will accept Christ as saviour as Zech 13 suggests that there will only be 1/3 of the nation that will be 'refined in the fire' and will say 'the Lord is our God'.

Speaking of Zechariah look back to Zec 12.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Here we see God pouring His spirit out on the house of David (Israel). They will look upon the one they pierced (Jesus) and mourn in bitterness.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Look what happens before God pours out His spirit on the house of David. Nations gathered against Jerusalem God defending the inhabitants of Jerusalem. In that day God destroys all the nations that come against Israel. Is it just me or isn’t this the same thing Eze 38-39 is saying?

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2 is discussing the day of the Lord.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Here we see God pouring his spirit out again. The day of the Lord is spoken of, armies attacking Jerusalem, and God defeating that army.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Israel will know Jesus is their God (He is at mount Zion 2:32). This also seems to say the pouring out of the spirit is near the return of Jesus.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The cosmic signs confirm this is near the return of Jesus. Zec and Joel both place the pouring out of spirit at the end of the last 7 years. This is the scripture I present in support of my argument that the pouring out in Eze 39 occurs when Jesus begins to reign from Jerusalem. If you could please provide the scriptures which support this event at some other time I would appreciate it.

Peace,
Seeker

[njfishwatchTurkey&Isr]

It is a huge ordeal to understand Ezekiel 38-39 because it can radically change one's whole view of eschatology. It did mine.

[1whowaits]

Seeker and NJ, i would say that your view that Gog-magog and armageddon are the same battle that occurs at the end of the 70th week is possible and may be the correct view. the passages in scripture that describe Gog and armageddon appear to parallel each other very closely. If Gog comes at the end of the 70th week then your view is the correct one.

But what if Gog comes early? The world situation we see before us suggests that this is a real possibility. the question then becomes not how you or i interpret these passages but how does God interpret these passages. That, obviously, is not so clear. So i believe it is wise for us to explore both sides of this issue, just in case there are some surprises.

I would suggest that is more likely that Gog-magog occurs either in conjuction with armageddon at the end of the 70th week, they are the same battle, or Gog occurs at the beginning or just prior to the 70th week.

Gog occurring in the middle of the 70th week would appear to be less likely as it would not make sense for God to be regathering all the Jewish people to Israel at a time when Satan is persuing Israel and at least part of Israel is being protected in a place in the desert. And Gog does not appear to be a long drawn out battle as it is not Israel who fights, but God. And His battles are pretty decisive, when He rains down hail and buring sulfur the effects would be immediate, not delayed.

So the question for me becomes are Gog-magog and armageddon the same battle or are they separate? If they are separate battles than it is more likely that they are separated by a significant period of time as Israel is regathered to the land following Gog, and again that would not appear to logically happen during the last 3 and 1/2 years of the 70th week.

I would suggest that while there are significant similarities between Gog and armageddon, there are also significant differences. The differences include Gog described as taking place on the mountains of Israel while armageddon occurs in the valley of Jehosaphat, which is outside Jerusalem. Gog involves a certain limited number of nations and armies while armageddon involves all nations of the earth.

At Gog, God rains down hail and burning sulfur and destroys the armies while at armageddon Jesus sets foot on the earth and destroys the armies with the sword of His mouth. At Gog, Israel knows the Lord is her God, while at armageddon, Israel mourns for the one who was pierced and He sets up His kingdom.

And at Gog-magog, the leader, Gog, is killed and buried in a mass grave while at armageddon, the leader, the AC, is captured alive and cast into the Lake of fire.

So , while scripture describes great similarites between the 2 battles, it also describes significant differences between the 2 battles. And the difference of Gog being killed and buried while the AC is captured alive is an unresolvable diference, as far as i see.

If Gog-magog and armageddon are separate battles then what is the point of describing them so similarly? Would not the similar appearance lead some to be confused about which battle they were witnessing? If Gog came early wouldn't some believe armageddon just happened?

i think this could be the point scripture may be making, that these 2 battles will appear to be so similar that many will be confused about what battle just took place. And it will not necessarily be the secular people that will be confused, but the religious.

Jesus said that during this time the deception would be so great that even the very elect could be deceived, if that were possible. How could the elect almost be deceived? Perhaps if they thought prophecy had been fulfilled they could almost be misled, if the deceiver used their own scriptures against them.

This is why i believe we need to consider all sides of this issue, it does have the potential for being used for deception. It is possible Gog may occur at the end of the week but we need to at least be aware of the potential for deception if Gog comes early in the week.

But again, you may be right. Just consider that there may be another possiblity that has a reasonable basis in scripture.

Doug, altough the jews do not believe the NT, they know the christian version of armageddon and they believe that Gog is the battle the christians are describing. And the jews do believe that the messiah will come either before, during or after Gog. So if both the jews and the 'christian' world believe the last battle has occurred, they may indeed be ripe for deception, they might be more likely to accept a false messiah.

Consider the work Satan has cut out for himself. Most of the religous world has some view of an 'anti-christ' figure that will be an evil leader who will cause great destruction. And many of the details of this false messiah are already known ahead of time through the Bible. How can he counter that?

One way would be to give people what they are looking for. Give them an evil man who causes great destruction and then make sure he gets killed. And make doubly sure events look like they fulfill the expectations the people have about prophecy. That way they won't be looking so close when the real thing steps up and claims to be god. They will believe the evil one has already come and gone.

As far as the sacrificial system being part of the 'covenant with the many', scripture does not actually say that. That would be a assumption that cannot be proved one way or the other.

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

Aww I was just getting started...had a swing through Zephaniah, Obadiah, and Isaiah planned...lol Maybe another time. Look I don't mind different viewpoints as long as they can be supported with specific scripture. I always offer scripture to support what I am saying. I expect the same in return. I have yet to see scripture in response showing a different scenario than what I have presented.

That being the case Gog is the AC and he is from the Turkish/Armenian area. The covenant he confirms will start the last 7 years. He did not confirm the ENP in any manner therefore the ENP is not the covenant Daniel 9 speaks of.

Peace,
Seeker

[1whowaits]

NJ, i would agree, this Ezek 38 and 39 passage can be an ordeal because it is confusing and it can effect one's view on the timing of events significantly. Which may be the point, God is keeping His complete timeline a mystery until the proper time.

Seeker, i know you and i have gone around a few times on these issues and i perhaps, have not been so clear. This is one of these things where i know what i am trying to say, i just can't seem to get it out right.

i believe the details of Gog, the pouring out of the spirit on Israel, etc. may be tied up in the understanding of what the scripture may really be saying when the phrase 'the day of the Lord' used.

I would put forth the view, that many have not considered, that there is more than one 'day of the Lord' to come in the future. That is to say that while there is only one last day, the day of Christ's return, the great and terrible day of the Lord, there may be other future days that scripture may be applying the term DOTL to, that we do not realize.

More simply stated, there may be future days that are called in scripture a 'day of the Lord' that are not the last day. My reasoning is as follows.

1- In the OT the term DOTL has been used to describe an event in which God judged certain nations, in the past. Isa. 13, describing the destruction of Babylon by the Medes in the past, is one passage and there are others. Isa. 34 describes judgement against Edom, Ezek 30 against Egypt, Amos 5 and 8 against Israel, Obadiah against Edom, and Zephaniah against Judah.

All these passages use the term DOTL in reference to an event in the past. Many of these passages have been incompletely fulfilled in the past so they may have some fufillment in another future event which will be termed the DOTL. So use of the term DOTL in these passages can refer both to a past and a future DOTL. The term DOTL is not specific to the last day, it can be used to describe other days that are not the last day.

2- Gog-magog is a future event, taking place 'in the latter days', or 'after many days'.

3- Gog-magog is described in Ezek. 38 and 39 with the terms and language used elsewhere in scripture to describe a DOTL. The terms 'on that day' and 'at that time' are used in the passage, which are terms used elsewhere in scripture to describe a DOTL.

Ezek 38 uses terms consitent with the cosmic signs noted elsewhere in scripture as an event associated with a DOTL. Ezek 38: 9- You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land.'

This type of language is used in Ezek. 32 to describe an event that would have the appearance of the cosmic signs- ' When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light.'

A 'cloud covering the land' would also be a cloud covering the sun, from the point of view of one on the earth. The darkening of the sun and moon, whether it be by supernatural means or a simple cloud, would fulfill the 'cosmic signs'. The 'cosmic signs' are mentioned in conjuction with the DOTL in Isa. 13.

Gog- magog is a day of wrath- Ezek. 38: 19- 'In my zeal and my firey wrath' and in verse 22 -'I will execute judgement upon him...' . Gog- magog is a day of wrath and judgement, terms associated with the DOTL elsewhere in scripture. (Isa. 13, etc.)

An earthquake occurs at Gog-magog which is also associated with the DOTL in Isa. 13.

4- Gog-Magog and armageddon are not the same battle so they do not occur on the same day. The differences between Gog-magog and armageddon are stated above, especially the death and buruial of Gog while the AC is captured alive and cast into the Lake of fire.

Armageddon clearly occurs on the last day, the day of Christ's return, the great and terrible day of the Lord. This is described in Joel 3, Zech 14, Rev. 16 and 19. Altough the last DOTL may extend for 1,000 years following Christ's return, it does not extend forward any significant time prior to His return.

According to Zech 14 ,Joel 3, Rev. 16 and 19 the gathering of the armies at armageddon, the return of Jesus Christ, and the DOTL occur during the same period of time. There is nothing in scripture to suggest a prolonged period of time before Christ's return called the DOTL, unless one uses an insuffcient definition of the DOTL.

So if Gog-magog and armageddon are not the same battle, which they do not appear to be, then they occur on separate days or during separate periods of time. If armageddon occurs on the last DOTL, then Gog-magog does not occur on the last DOTL, it occurs on a day that is not the last day.

If therefore, Gog-magog has the description given to a DOTL and can be termed and described as a DOTL as noted above, but does not occur on the last day, the great DOTL, then there is at least one future day that can be termed a DOTL that is not the last DOTL.

This would mean that there can be more than one future day termed in scripture as a DOTL.

The implications of this could be significant. This could mean that scriptures previously considered to be describing the last day, the day of Christ's return, may actually be describing a differenet day, a day of the Lord such as the day of Gog-magog.

An example of this would be Joel 2. Joel 2 describes an attack on Israel by a northern army that God defeats which is consistent with Ezek. 38 and 39 and Gog-magog. Many have not been able to see Joel 2 as a description of Gog-magog because the cosmic signs were mentioned as was the term 'day of the Lord'. But if the cosmic signs and the term DOTL can be used to describe a day other than the last day,(and they have been used to describe past events in this way-Isa. 13, Amos 5+8), then the day described in Joel 2 can be a time other than the last day.

And as Gog-magog can fit the description of a DOTL, then Joel 2 can be describing Gog-magog and not the last day, the day of Christ's return.

This also could make more sense of the pouring out of the spirit in Joel 2 verses that in Zech 12. In Joel 2 the spirit is poured out after the defeat of the northern army but before the great and terrible DOTL. This would suggest that the pouring out occurs before the last day, not on the last day as described in Zech. 12. The spirit is poured out on individuals- men and women, sons and daughters, old and young. This would appear to be the Holy Sprirt poured out on individuals like that at pentecost, and this scripture was used in the description of pentecost.

In Zech 12 the spirit poured out is one of grace and supplication and it is poured out on the house of David(the royal house) and the inhabitants of Jerusalem(the capital city), and each clan will mourn. This is a description of national repentance, not of individual receiving of the spirit as described in Joel 2. Joel 2 and Zech 12 are describing 2 different spirits which would be consistent with these events occurring at 2 different times, 2 different days of the Lord.

If there is more than one future DOTL, such as Gog-magog, then this also could significantly effect the interpretation of the 6th seal in Rev. 6. If there is more than one future DOTL to come, more than one day that can be called a DOTL that is not the last day, then the DOTL mentioned in Rev. 6 does not have to be describing the last day. The DOTL mentioned in Rev. 6 could be describing Gog-magog or another day in which God pours out judgement on a nation or group of nations.

The 6th seal not being cosidered as the last day, the last day of the Lord, could make much more sense of the timeline of the seals, trumpets and bowls. Let's face it, the insertion of the DOTL, the last day, near the beginning of the sequence, never really has made much sense. That particular interpretation leads to an overly complicated explantion of timing which is very difficult to visualize, much less support.

The implication of there being more than one future day that scrpture may apply the term DOTL to could be that many OT passages that mention the DOTL may not be referring to the last day, the day of Christ's return. The only way to determine if a particular OT or NT passage were referring to the last day would be if that passage contained additional elements we know will occur on the last day, such as those found in Matt. 24, Rev. 9 and 20.

The elements that are specific to the last DOTL would be -1) all nations gathered 2) Jesus coming in the clouds 3) the gathering of the elect-rapture 4) Jesus returning with his saints 5) the defeat of the AC and FP and their armies by Jesus 6) Satan being bound.

Without these additional elements being described it would be difficult to determine if the passage were dicussing the last day or another day such as Gog-magog.

Elements that are common to almost all days that can be termed a DOTL and not specific to the last day would appear to be 1) the cosmic signs 2) earthquakes 3) wrath being poured out 4) the term day of the Lord being used.

I realize i am stating something here that many have not even considered and i doubt you would agree with it. take it in the spirit it was offered, an attempt at clarity of scriptural interpretation. I think one with an open mind will find the reasoning sound.

[watch2000]

1whowaits,

So you believe Israel will be taken into exile before the trib?

Ezekeiel 39

23 And the nations will know that the people of Israel went into exile for their sin, because they were unfaithful to me. So I hid my face from them and handed them over to their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and their offenses, and I hid my face from them.

[Triton57]

Triton, you are correct, there is no indication in scripture that the covenant has anything to do with the reinstitution of the sacrificial system. And scripture does not say that the stopping of the sacrifice is a breaking of the covenant, just that in the middle of the time period of the covenant, in the middle of the 7, the sacrifice is stopped.

The Jewish people do not need an agreement or permission to restart the sacrificial system. They just need a complete and total defeat of the muslim nations that would oppose the rebuilding of the temple. No covenant by anyone would stop the muslim world from opposing Israel's rebuilding of the temple and reinstituting the sacrificial system, no matter what the economic rewards were. This is a religious issue for the muslims and it can only be resolved by force.

The only other possible mention of the covenant in scripture could be Isa. 28 which mentions the 'covenant with death' that annulled. The covenant with death would appear to be a covenant of protection- 'When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by, it cannot touch us'.

I believe what allows the Jews to rebuild the temple will be God's destroying the Muslim armies that attempt to wipe Israel off the map at the Gog/Magog invasion. If that happens pre-abomination of desolation, I could see that quieting the Muslims and making Israel stand more firm in taking what is given them by God. They live in fear of doing anything now, but I think attitudes will change when He "magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD." Ezekiel 38:23

I think the return to orthadox Judaism in Israel will be amazing as they realize their God just saved them as promised. They will have less fear and Islam will be temporarily muted. As we see with the abomination of desolation, they will come back with a vengeance and kill 2/3 of Israel. Zechariah 13:8,9 That's my current understanding of how events could unfold based on prophecy. I think it's a little unclear up until the abomination of desolation as to exact order, but the attack seems a likely catalyst for the temple being rebuilt.

[Douggg]

Hi Doug,

So, I theorize, with good biblical basis that the Antichrist will lead a WEU reaction force assembled in western Greece or Macedonia when the Gog/Magog forces begin to mass. When Gog/Maog attacks, the Antichrist will lead his force southeast to repel them.... but God destroys Gog/Magog before he gets there.

Theorizing and imagining are fun no doubt. But in all seriousness did you fail to notice the scriptures I posted. Did you not read what it said about God receiving Israel to Himself? I point you to the words of the bible and you refer me to a video of man. Which is of greater weight the words of God or a video of man?

uh, brother Seeker, are you not the author of the 31 pages of "theorizing" in the turkey thread ? Everyone here is theorizing to a point.

Okay, the reason I want you to watch those 2 videos is that while we don't know for certain who the Antichrist is .... we do know for certain who is going to be doing the animal sacrifices... the Jews. And with Rabbi Chaim Richman we have a face of someone who we can, in all likelyhood, expect to partake in that covenant in a big way...he will be an actual participant. That's pretty heavy stuff when you think about it.

R. Richman gave an excellent video tour of the temple mount. I was impressed by it's size. In video 2, R. Richman is constantly pointing out the security people that were shadowing his every move... ready to arrest him if he appeared to utter a prayer. It is incredible the tension against a Jew praying on the temple mount. That's what came across in that video, that needs to be seen.... to understand why there is never going to be a temple rebuilt as long as Islam exists.

Doug now you seem to be saying that the AC and Gog exist in the same timeframe. They are both massed and ready to head to Israel. But the AC is too late God destroys Gog before he can get there. God has mercy on the whole house of Israel, pours his spirit out upon Israel then allows the AC to persecute Israel at a later point in time. This story sure is getting interesting.

Well, what I am saying is all of the countries that make up the Gog/Magog invasion force exist right now. And the AC is alive I am certain, but I don't claim to know his identity.

Right now the Europeans have a peace keeping force in Lebanon with the Italians as the lead nation. When Gog/Magog occures,wiht the initial massing of Arab and Russian forces.... the Europeans will be forced to in react. in part in protection of their peacekeeping forces already there. Intitally, I think the west will hope that they can deter the Arabs and Russian, by staging a big counter force in Western Greece or Macedonnia. And since some of the trading nations ask if Gog has come to take a spoil... I think that the concern will be that the Russian's hand in it will be that they could monopolize the oil fields.... that are vital to European interests. Another incentitive for the Europeans. Also there is a big resentment in Europe about the spread of Islam in their countries. So no love lost for the muslims by the Europeans.

It will not be forces of the Antichrist, like in Daniel 11, the latter verses... with the Antichrist being a major political figure. I see him as being a military leader assigned by the EU politicians to head up the WEU forces.

So now the AC and Gog are both poised to battle in Israel before the last 7 years begin. The AC is ready to step in and be the hero of the day but God beats him to it. So if God saved Israel, not the AC, why would Israel look to the AC as their Messiah prior to the last 7 years beginning? I am getting confused....

Again, not like the Antichrist of Daniel 11, where he is in charge. It wll be his entry onto the world scene....as an unknown. Yes, the Antichirst will play the part of the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6.... he will play the role of being a European who is a Jew, who is sent to do a job.

Why would Israel think the Antichrist is their messiah?

That is what I am trying to tell you about what the Jews are expecting... a military king David... who will fight the battles of God. The Jews can read Ezekiel 38 as well as us... they know it is God who destroys Gog/Magog... they know that those countries are muslim. But they believe that their messiah is God's anointed. Someone that God will bring on the scene as their king.

By God destroying Gog/Magog, it will appear to them as though God has paved the way for the arrival of the messiah into Israel... to begin the messianic reign. The Antichrist's sudden emergence, at that particular time, in the role of what they are expecting, will appear to them to be that anointed one. He will be outspoken. Remember what the Bible says about the little horn speaking great things? The Antichrist will be a Jew, knowledgeable in their laws, and in Kabblallah.... he will be an imposing figure... a man of fierce countenance.

Mainly what I am saying, Seeker, is that there are two sides to the covenant. Most people focus on the Antichrist side trying to figure out who he is. What I am saying is to take a look at the side we know for certain... the Jewish side.... we have the exact people who will be a part of that covenant who will be doing those animal sacrifices... check out those 2 videos


Peace,

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Hi Doug,

At least my theories match scripture...lol. There is not one scripture in the bible that supports the Revived Roman Empire theory and I can prove it. So the saga continues. Now you are proposing the AC is doing what? Here is what he is doing prior to the midpoint of the last 7 years. He is busy in Egypt.

Dan 11:25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.
Dan 11:26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.
Dan 11:27 And both these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.
Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
Dan 11:29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.
Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Can't wait for the twist you add to this one....

Peace,
Seeker

[A_Watchman]

Just out of curiosty, does anyone know which scripture in Isaiah says in so many words, "that when they see him, they shall mourn. They will see his hands that have been pierced, and ask "who has done this to you?"

Douggg, where do you get the idea that the Jews will recognize Yehushua as the messiah, before his return? Sorry, between Isaiah, and Revalation, I have never heard that before. I understand there is the 144000 who will do so. But none other.

[OBXBob]

Zechariah 12:10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[watch2000]

Just out of curiosty, does anyone know which scripture in Isaiah says in so many words, "that when they see him, they shall mourn. They will see his hands that have been pierced, and ask "who has done this to you?"

Douggg, where do you get the idea that the Jews will recognize Yehushua as the messiah, before his return? Sorry, between Isaiah, and Revalation, I have never heard that before. I understand there is the 144000 who will do so. But none other.

Zechariah 12
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit [a] of grace and supplication. They will look on [b] me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

[bchandler]

Um back to the topic of the thread for a second...lol


Herb has never said that the ENP is THE covenant.

What he has suggested is that The Barcelona Process is THE covenant, and that the ENP is an instument that provides confirming, strengthening, to the covenant with the many (The Barcelona Process).

Remember that when the Barcelona treaty was negotiated, the whole world cried... finally a peace plan... something that we can implement... yay!!! Peace and saftey!

It wasn't long after this that things began to fall apart, and Israel began putting up it's security fence...

But, when the Barcelona treaty was negotiated Israel was living relatively securely, without security walls... and there was hope for a settlement at last.

Today Israel is litterally surrounded by the armies of the whole world. In the form of peacekeeping and hostile forces alike...

If Israel is forced to act against Iran alone because the U.S. refuses to do anything... I can see how the whole world could come against Israel very quickly indeed... as the troops and the stage is already set.

[Douggg]

Hi Doug,

At least my theories match scripture...lol. There is not one scripture in the bible that supports the Revived Roman Empire theory and I can prove it. So the saga continues. Now you are proposing the AC is doing what? Here is what he is doing prior to the midpoint of the last 7 years. He is busy in Egypt.

Daniel 11 can only be understood.... by understanding it in CONJUNCTION with Daniel 8.... and Daniel 8:23 in particular. So be prepared to flip back and forth to Daniel 8. But only a couple of verses....

But first go back to the statue dream of that Nebuchadnezzar had. That is our base for the different empires and sub-empires...including the kings of the south and north in Daniel 11.... which are the sub-empires of Daniel 8.

I am going to work it from that angle, as I explain, going through Daniel 8 to get to Daniel 11....which is a necessity to answer your question.

The brass torso is the Greek Empire. The four breakup kingdoms are still within that brass torso as sub-empires. So, looking at Daniel 8:22, we are in the very bottom part of that brass torso...

8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Okay, now we are just about to move out of the brass torso, and the four breakup kingdoms (still in the brass torso)....

8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Verse 8:23 above is the same transition from the ptolemys and selecuids to the end times Antichrist, as is found in Daniel 11....

The trangsgressors are come in the full.....(above) is when the last of those kings warring with one another of the sub-empires of the torso of brass ends in the abomination of desolation of the temple.... by the king of the north, in that particular set of conflicts again, within the torso of brass.... being come into the full (or completion) by the acts of Antiochus Ephinanes.

Which ends the torso of brass period... which ends at Daniel 11:32.

Okay, the little horn is from the fourth empire from Daniel 7....which equates the legs of iron, toes and feet of iron mixed with clay... in Nebuchanezzars statue dream.

Picking up again In Daniel 8:23, the transition verse.... we leave the torso of brass after transgressors have come into full, i.e. the act by Antiochus of polluting the temple, the abomination of desolation that he places there a statue of Zeus, we go into the end times when "......,a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up...." who ends up fighting the Princes of princes - Jesus.

Okay the details found in Daniel 11, the details of those four breakup kingdoms, specifically the ones of the north and south.... because the act of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 by Antiochus finalizes the period of the brass torso... is the explanation of Daniel 8:23 of when".... the transgressors are come to the full..." Daniel 8:23 then goes into the end-times King of Fierce countenance, like Daniel 11:35-36 transitions to the Antichrist.

So what I saying is that the first part of Daniel 8:23 and Daniel 11:31 go together.... as does the second part of Daniel 8:23 and Daniel 11:35-36 go together.

Peace,

Doug L.

[1whowaits]

watch2000, you raise an interesting point. After 70 AD the jewish people went into exile among the nations, scattered to the 4 corners. In that sense the jewish people are still in exile. Up until just recently more jewish people lived in the nations outside of Israel than lived inside Israel. Altough many jews have 'returned from exile' a significant number still live in exile outside of Israel. Aliya still goes on.

So if Gog-magog occurs at the beginning of the 70th week, the exile referred to in Ezek. 39 would be the present exile of the Jewish people living outside of Israel. God says in Ezek. that he will gather every jew to the land, not leaving any behind. Makes one wonder what might cause all the jews to leave their present homes in nations outside of Israel (Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you-Jer 30:11)

if Gog occurs at the end of the 70th week, i am not sure what exile would be referred to, perhaps the same one. Altough at least some of the jewish people are protected in the wilderness during the last 3 and 1/2 years, this would not appear to be an exile by God. Some of the jewish people appear to accept the false messiah and appear to be allowed to remain in Jerusalem right up until the end. Zech 14 refers to half of the city of Jerusalem going into exile just before Christ's return, but it is not clear if this exile is from God or just the AC's doing.

But one would think that as the 70th week is Israel's week, most if not all of Israel would be regathered to the nation during the early part of the week. Jer. 30 and 31 appear to state that Israel and Judah will be joined together and Israel will return to her towns during the time of Jacob's trouble. As the complete regathering occurs after Gog-magog, this could suggest that Gog-magog occurs early in the week or before the week begins. There is no clearly stated evidence that God sends Israel into exile during the 70th week as described in Ezek. 39.

[Douggg]

Douggg, where do you get the idea that the Jews will recognize Yehushua as the messiah, before his return? Sorry, between Isaiah, and Revalation, I have never heard that before. I understand there is the 144000 who will do so. But none other.

It is in Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Plus, in the gospels, Jesus said he is not going to return until they (the Jews) say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord (paraphrased).... meaning that Jesus is not going to return until they have accepted him as the messiah.

Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. And all Israel will be saved.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The 144,000 are the "first fruits" (Rev14:4), not the only Jews that will be saved.

You might be interested in my post Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:47 am in this thread about God pouring out his Spirit immediately after Gog/Magog (Ezek39:29) on house of Israel. And that is what draws the Jews to believe that Jesus is the messiah at the midpoint of the 7 years - immediately following Gog/Magog.


Peace,

Doug L.