Rapture before 1st Seal Broken?

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Rapture before 1st Seal Broken?

Postby Believer on Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:35 pm

“Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments and golden crowns (stephanos) on their heads” (Rev. 4:4).

This is who will sit on thrones:

“And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Mat. 19:28).

“…and just as My Father has granted me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 22:29-30).

He who overcomes, I will grant him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev. 3:21).

He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations” (Rev. 2:26).


This is he who overcomes:

“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world – our faith” (1 John 5:4).

“Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5:5).


This is who will have white garments:

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life…” (Rev. 3:5).


This is who receives crowns:

“Everyone who competes in the games exercise self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable crown (stephano), but we an imperishable” (1 Cor. 9:25).

“I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown (stephano) of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

“Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown (stephano) of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).


This is when we will receive our crowns:

“For who is our hope or joy or crown (stephano) of exultation? Is it not even, you in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?” (1 Thes. 2:19).

“…in the future, there is laid up for me the crown (stephano) of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Tim. 4:7).

“And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown (stephano)of glory” (1 Peter 5:4).

1. a crown
a. a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank
1. the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games
b. metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness
c. that which is an ornament and honour to one

In Revelation 4, it shows there are recipients of crowns (stephanos), white garments and thrones with Christ before the breaking of the 1st seal.

Question #1: Does Scripture reveal that anyone other than the redeemed overcomer will receive a crown (stephano), white garment or throne?

Question #2: If the answer to the above question is “no”, can we now accept that the rewarded redeemed will be with Christ as He breaks the 1st seal?

Thanks!

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Postby 1whowaits on Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:18 pm

Believer, you are making some generalizations here which you have not proven to be true.

The scripture does not say the elders are men, it is possible they could be angels.

The elders do not receive crowns, they already have them.

The elders sit on 24 thrones not 12 thrones.

The elders are not judging Israel on 12 thrones, Israel is still on earth.

No description is given of the elders 'overcoming' anything.

The elders have white garments but so do angels- Matt 28.

You are making an assumption that the elders are saints or christians which you cannot prove to be true.

There is an alternate explanation of who the elders are, which also cannot be proven. The sanhedrin, the court on earth, is believed to be patterned after the court in heaven. The court on earth is divided into 3 parts and consists of the priests, the ELDERS, and the scribes and teachers of the law. The high priest presides.

It would appear that the throne room scene in Rev. 4 is also presented in Dan. 7 and it is stated that the 'court' will set. It is therefore possible the scene we see in Rev. 4 is of the court in heaven. The court in heaven would then consist of the 4 living creatures that call to worship (the priests), the elders (the elders), and the angels surrounding the throne (scribes or those who carry the message). And God is presiding over the court. The elders would then be angelic beings and not men. This would be a more plausible explanation of the use of the term 'elders' for these beings. Compared to all the angels present in this scene, men would not appear to merit the name 'elder'.

So there is a perfectly plausible explanation of what we see in Rev. that runs counter to your assumptions. But like your assumptions, it cannot be proven, yet.

So the answer to your question 2 would be a definite no.
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Postby seraph on Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:36 am

The twenty-four elders are most definitely NOT angelic beings. Here's why:

Reason #1: The elders are clothed in white garments, which throughout Revelation are used as symbols for salvation. Angels do not need salvation because they were not lost to begin with. However, these elders were at one time lost and at some point received salvation as is seen by their wearing of the white garments.

Reason #2: The second clue is the type of crowns they are wearing. These crowns are not diadem crowns worn by those who are royal by nature, which would have been the case had these been celestial beings. These crowns are the stephanos crowns, the crowns of an overcomer; the type of crown given as rewards to the members of the church at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Reason #3: The title elder is used nowhere in Scripture to describe angelic or celestial beings. This term is used of humans in positions of authority either in the synagogue or church.

Because of this evidence, the twenty-four elders must represent the church saints. If this is true, then they provide further evidence for a pre-tribulation Rapture. The church is already in heaven in chapter four and five before the tribulation begins in chapter six.

So to answer your question, Believer: Yes, from this passage we can almost conclusively discern that we will be with Jesus when He breaks the First Seal.

Indeed our King is coming! MARANATHA!!!
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Postby Believer on Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:28 am

1whowaits wrote:Believer, you are making some generalizations here which you have not proven to be true.

The scripture does not say the elders are men, it is possible they could be angels.

If suggesting the elders are men is a generalization, than wouldn't suggesting the elders are angels also be a generalization? The intentions of your first statement are not clear to me.

1whowaits wrote:The elders do not receive crowns, they already have them.

That is part of my point. The elders have already received their crowns. At what point did these elders receive crowns of victory?

1whowaits wrote:The elders sit on 24 thrones not 12 thrones.

I realize that. The 12 apostles along with 12 OT saints could possilby make up the 24 elders.

1whowaits wrote:The elders are not judging Israel on 12 thrones, Israel is still on earth.

I don't understand what you mean here.

1whowaits wrote:No description is given of the elders 'overcoming' anything.

They are wearing the crown of an overcomer indicating they have overcome something.

In the original Greek, “stephanos” are “victor’s” crowns, similar to the laurel leaf crowns given to the winner of a race in the ancient Olympic Games. This kind of crown does not indicate any sort of inherent authority or position, but rather an achievement or a victory. The other kind of crown mentioned in the New Testament Greek is a “diadem” crown. This is a crown that would be worn by somebody in a position of royalty, such as a king. The elders would therefore be seen as having achieved some sort of victory.

The believer is shown as a “victor” or as an “overcomer” in Scripture:

“Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown (stephano) that will not last; but we do it to get a crown (stephano) that will last forever" (1 Cor. 9:24-25).

“I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown (stephano) of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

So “stephanos” are crowns that will be awarded to Raptured saints, to those who have “fought the good fight”. Since this is precisely what the 24 elders are wearing, this would suggest the possibility that the elders could be taken to be the Raptured Church.

1whowaits wrote:There is an alternate explanation of who the elders are, which also cannot be proven. The sanhedrin, the court on earth, is believed to be patterned after the court in heaven. The court on earth is divided into 3 parts and consists of the priests, the ELDERS, and the scribes and teachers of the law. The high priest presides.

Yes, this is an interesting consideration.

1whowaits wrote:It would appear that the throne room scene in Rev. 4 is also presented in Dan. 7 and it is stated that the 'court' will set. It is therefore possible the scene we see in Rev. 4 is of the court in heaven. The court in heaven would then consist of the 4 living creatures that call to worship (the priests), the elders (the elders), and the angels surrounding the throne (scribes or those who carry the message). And God is presiding over the court. The elders would then be angelic beings and not men. This would be a more plausible explanation of the use of the term 'elders' for these beings. Compared to all the angels present in this scene, men would not appear to merit the name 'elder'.

This is something to consider. However, Scipture indicates crowns on the heads of the elders. Heavenly elders are not "victors" or "overcomers."

Thank you for your response.

Our Redeemer and King is coming!
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Postby mommyjen on Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:21 am

I think it is very difficult to impose the proof of a pre-trib rapture here. I read up on the internet here and even biblical scholars are divided on what this means. Tim LaHaye says they are angels, isn't he numero uno teacher of pre-trib rapture theory?

Tim LaHaye says, “When we take the term ‘elders’ into consideration and understand that there is a mistaken rendering of a passage in the King James (Rev. 5:8-12), we may properly conclude that these elders are angels.”5

From: Revelation: Illustrated and Made Plain, p. 81.

Let me know if I am wrong on this because I pulled it off of a site. If he is indeed the major teacher of this doctrine then woudn't that be important?
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Postby stevesherri on Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:35 pm

mommyjen wrote:I think it is very difficult to impose the proof of a pre-trib rapture here. I read up on the internet here and even biblical scholars are divided on what this means. Tim LaHaye says they are angels, isn't he numero uno teacher of pre-trib rapture theory?


No, no, no Mr. LaHaye ..... if the 24 Elders are NOT the Church in a pre-trib Rapture ..... then there IS no Church described in heaven when the first seal is taken off !!! .... In fact, there's no one that could be interpreted in Heaven as being the Church until Rev 7:9. IMO.

The 24 Elders could be 2 sets of symbolic 12's. 12 could symbolize the .... completeness of a MUCH larger number. (That feels like a better argument than it sounds )

I find solid support for a Rapture at Rev 7:9, but of course would prefer Rev 4:1, "Come up here". Why can't there be multiple Raptures ? We have the 2 witnesses with their own Rapture, when the Lord says, "Come up here".
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Postby 1whowaits on Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:07 pm

Believer, i am attempting to point out that your argument about who the elders are is based purely on assumptions you cannot prove. I have stated this in my example of the elders being angels, i cannot prove that this is true, it is an assumption. The point is that neither one of us can prove who the elders are so that using them to support an argument regarding the timing of the rapture is futile, your argument is not supported by the weight of scripture.

You attempt to make a case that the elders are raptured saints based on the crowns they wear, which is purely an assumption on your part. Do we know what has occurred in ages past? Do we know if angels have received crowns for their deeds in the past? To argue that the presence of a crown indicates a raptured saint is to make an assumption not proven by scripture.

Does the presence of a crown indicate that the crowned being is always a raptured saint? Obviously not- 'I looked and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple...' Rev. 14:14

The one with the sickle and a gold crown is assumed to be Jesus since the term 'a son of man' is used. But the passage continues with 'then another angel' leaving the possiblity open that the one with the crown is an angel. The relevant point is that whoever the one with the crown is, Jesus or an angel, that person is not a raptured saint. Since someone other than raptured saints can wear the crown, saying the elders have to be raptured saints because they are wearing crowns is a assumption not backed up by scripture. Clearly someone other than the saints will wear crowns in heaven, and we are not told anywhere the limits of who possesses a crown and who does not.

This is also akin to saying the elders must be raptured saints because they wear white garments. This is disproved by Matt. 28- 'an angel of the Lord came down form heaven and going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.' Angels clearly wear white garments so the argument based on clothing fails.

Again the point is that the argument that one can know who the elders are based on their wearing crowns or their wearing white clothes is baseless, you are making assumptions you cannot prove.

But while i cannot prove who the elders are, i believe scripture clearly proves who the elders are not.

The scene in Rev. 4 and 5 occurs at the beginning of the sequence of events described in Rev. There is some debate if this scene occurs at the beginning of the 70th week or at the middle of the 70th week and the beginning of the great tribulation. While the exact time that this scene occurs is not completely clear, it is completely clear that Rev. 4 and 5 are not describing the last day, the day of the Lord, the day of Christ's return. That day is described later in Rev. 16, 19 and 20.

But Jesus clearly states in John 6 :39- And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.'

Jesus clearly states that He will raise christians up on the last day. The scene in Rev. 4 and 5 clearly does not occur on the last day. Therefore the elders clearly cannot be raptured saints because Jesus has not yet raised christians, it is not the last day, the rapture has not happened as described directly from Jesus himself.

And this statement by Jesus is reinforced in Dan. 12, Matt. 24 and John 11: 24- 'Martha answered, I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day'.

While i cannot say for sure whether the elders are indeed angels or men, the weight of scripture goes against the elders being raptured saints.
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Postby seraph on Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:59 pm

1whowaits wrote:You attempt to make a case that the elders are raptured saints based on the crowns they wear, which is purely an assumption on your part. Do we know what has occurred in ages past? Do we know if angels have received crowns for their deeds in the past? To argue that the presence of a crown indicates a raptured saint is to make an assumption not proven by scripture.

Does the presence of a crown indicate that the crowned being is always a raptured saint? Obviously not- 'I looked and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple...' Rev. 14:14

The one with the sickle and a gold crown is assumed to be Jesus since the term 'a son of man' is used. But the passage continues with 'then another angel' leaving the possiblity open that the one with the crown is an angel. The relevant point is that whoever the one with the crown is, Jesus or an angel, that person is not a raptured saint. Since someone other than raptured saints can wear the crown, saying the elders have to be raptured saints because they are wearing crowns is a assumption not backed up by scripture. Clearly someone other than the saints will wear crowns in heaven, and we are not told anywhere the limits of who possesses a crown and who does not.


Of course, it should be pointed out that the person wearing the crown in 14:14 is Jesus Himself... not an angel (Son of Man = JESUS). And I would say that He deserves the crown more than anyone and everyone else (precisely why we'll throw ours at His feet when we are taken up to him). By the way... the phrase "another angel" appears three times before this one in chapter 14. :wink:
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Postby 1whowaits on Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:58 pm

Seraph, do you get the point that Jesus is not a raptured saint? The question is not whether the person is Jesus or an angel, or whether he deserves a crown or not. The point is that scripture pictures someone other than christians wearing a crown. If someone other than christians has a crown, then the wearing of crowns is not exclusive to christians. Therefore you cannot make the case that the elders are raptured saints based on their possesion of a crown, they are not the only ones that will wear one.
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Postby seraph on Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:52 am

The argument isn't so much that it HAS to be Christians that wear the crown.. . they just have to be overcomers to wear this type of crown in particular. They are almost always given as an award (2 Tim. 2:5). We see this crown worn by Christians, Jesus, the antichrist (in Rev 6:2) and even the demons that torture those who have taken the mark.
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Postby 1whowaits on Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:38 pm

Seraph, my point is that the presence of crowns or the wearing of white garments does not prove that the elders are raptured saints. As you have stated and i have demonstrated there are other beings who wear crowns or white garments (angels, Jesus, God). Therefore there is no proof that the elders are men, much less raptured saints. To use the elders in support of a pre-trib rapture viewpoint would be a weak argument to say the least.
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:02 pm

The other thing that has to be noted is that the elders are sitting around the throne of God, not the throne of Christ. Actually, when John sees the heavenly scene, Jesus is not even there. He does not appear until after the seven sealed scroll is presented. I believe these elders are part of an angelic representation of the earthen Levitical priesthood ordained by God. David Lowe gives a really good explanation of this in his book Earthquake Resurrection.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:07 pm

More appropriately, the Levitical priesthood and temple services would have been representative of what we see in Revelation.
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Postby last trump on Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:26 pm

I had listed 23 things in order as to what is happening in Rev 4&5 and no one tried to even explain their understanding of Rev 4&5. That post is in Pre Trib section if you need to see what they were.

All of those points except the Rider on the White horse came before the Lamb opens the first seal.


:a2:
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:48 pm

Last trump, I would have gladly gone through those 23 or however many points if you would have simply answered Tevye's questoin :wink:
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Postby last trump on Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:28 pm

Bob

I did answer but apparently you didn't like the answer. Not much I can do about that...
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:36 pm

Well, I did refer to your "answer" as a "non-answer" now didn't I? Your response to Tevye simply didn't answer his question, all you did was state that he didn't "look past the first paragraph", as though the answer to his question ought to have been self-evident, even though his question related to your entire post. But, whatever, let's not talk about it here. This isn't the place.
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Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
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Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
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Postby last trump on Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:52 am

Bob

That's just your way of evading a mountain of scriptural evidence.

It would be nice to actually see what Pre Wrath or Post Trib people believe about what is happening in Rev 4&5. I know this portion of scripture scares them exceedingly.

This will help everyone understand things as it concerns the first Seal.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:36 pm

Actually, last trump, it would be more accurate to say that your persistant refusal to answer people's questions is YOUR way of keeping your unscriptural views from really being questioned. As I said, I would have been more than happy to go through your views. I would say that your desire to keep your views from being totally demolished with solid Scriptural interpretation, is why you persisted in your refusal to answer one simple question.

Now, if you wish to discuss this further, let us do so through Private Messaging rather than wasting space in the forums. Thank you.
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Postby last trump on Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:31 pm

Bob

I believe I gave 3 Scripture verses. You seem to be trying your hardest not to answer my question about Rev 4&5. Actually I never directed my question to you specifally so I am a little puzzled why you are the only one that keeps coming back to attack me.

Moderator I think see a trend here. I gave an answer and he doesn't like it so I have to be dogged by this one person on this board. I don't get that....

Would someone else on this forum who happens to be Pre Wrath or Post Trib please explain to us what is happening in Rev 4&5 as it comes right before the First Seal.

Blessings
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Postby Salty Skipper on Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:35 pm

last trump,

You are in the debate area. :wink:
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Postby last trump on Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:03 pm

OK Salty

Before we get to the first Seal it would be good to take a look at what happens right before that in Rev 4&5.

There are some interesting aspects of John paralelling with Rev certain thoughts and precepts. Even the first Seal seems to paralell with John 5, any thoughts?
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Postby mommyjen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:11 pm

Well post the points here so we can debate them. You can't debate in the pre-trib forum unless your pre-trib which I am not. :wink:
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Postby AndCanItBe on Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:59 pm

Sorry guys, no can do. This is believer's thread and these points were already discussed here.

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=21340
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Postby mommyjen on Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:35 pm

last trump wrote:OK Salty

Before we get to the first Seal it would be good to take a look at what happens right before that in Rev 4&5.

There are some interesting aspects of John paralelling with Rev certain thoughts and precepts. Even the first Seal seems to paralell with John 5, any thoughts?


I don't see the correlation between John 5 and the first seal. Help me out!
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Postby last trump on Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:09 am

Greetings Mommyjen

Leading uo to the First Seal.

I had brought up some points about how The Gospel of John paralells with the book of Rev, being that John wrote them both. Here's a couple of those.

John 5:22 says that all Judgment has been given to the Son. Then in Rev 5:6 we see the Lamb Standing which means that Jesus is no longer sitting on the Throne of Grace and has now stood up to Judge.

John 5:27 says, And hath given him authority to execute Judgment, this then paralells with Rev 5:7 when you see the Lamb take the book out of the right hand of him who sat on the Throne. An obvious picture that the Lamb can now start Judgment.

John 5:43 Jesus also said he came in his Fathers name and the Jews recieved him not. Jesus concludes by saying if another come in his own name him they would recieve.

Here's the point Mommyjen, The First Seal in Rev 6:2 is the rider on the White Horse which paralells that same thought. The ride on the White Horse will be the anti Christ who the Jews will sign a covenant of death with, just as Jesus predicted they would do (him they will recieve).

There's more in there to see but you had been so kind to at least ask. I just showed you the short version but I think you can clearly see what is happening between the two books.

This is why it appears that the Church is gone by the First Seal. God Bless you
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Postby Lazarus43 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:31 am

last trump wrote:Greetings Mommyjen

Leading uo to the First Seal.

I had brought up some points about how The Gospel of John paralells with the book of Rev, being that John wrote them both. Here's a couple of those.

John 5:22 says that all Judgment has been given to the Son. Then in Rev 5:6 we see the Lamb Standing which means that Jesus is no longer sitting on the Throne of Grace and has now stood up to Judge.
Text which I have colored red is an assumption not supported in the Scripture.

last trump wrote:John 5:27 says, And hath given him authority to execute Judgment, this then paralells with Rev 5:7 when you see the Lamb take the book out of the right hand of him who sat on the Throne. An obvious picture that the Lamb can now start Judgment.
Again, text which I have colored red is an assumption not supported in the Scripture.

last trump wrote:John 5:43 Jesus also said he came in his Fathers name and the Jews recieved him not. Jesus concludes by saying if another come in his own name him they would recieve.

Here's the point Mommyjen, The First Seal in Rev 6:2 is the rider on the White Horse which paralells that same thought. The ride on the White Horse will be the anti Christ who the Jews will sign a covenant of death with, just as Jesus predicted they would do (him they will recieve).
Text which I have colored red is interpretations based on assumptions not supported in the Scripture.

last trump wrote:There's more in there to see but you had been so kind to at least ask. I just showed you the short version but I think you can clearly see what is happening between the two books.

This is why it appears that the Church is gone by the First Seal.
Conclusion which I have colored red seems to be circular reasoning from the assumption that events assumed by an unstated pre-trib premise to occur after "the Church is gone" will only happen when "the Church is gone." The conclusion is fully based on unreliable information.

last trump wrote:God Bless you
I totally agree with the last three words of the post by "last trump".

This is nothing personal. I just dislike faulty logic very much.

Check the Scriptures to see if what I have said is true.

Here is also a helpful web page:
Logical Fallacies

Edited for clarity.

Blessings,
Lazarus43
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Postby mommyjen on Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:04 am

last trump wrote:Greetings Mommyjen

Leading uo to the First Seal.

I had brought up some points about how The Gospel of John paralells with the book of Rev, being that John wrote them both. Here's a couple of those.

John 5:22 says that all Judgment has been given to the Son. Then in Rev 5:6 we see the Lamb Standing which means that Jesus is no longer sitting on the Throne of Grace and has now stood up to Judge.

John 5:27 says, And hath given him authority to execute Judgment, this then paralells with Rev 5:7 when you see the Lamb take the book out of the right hand of him who sat on the Throne. An obvious picture that the Lamb can now start Judgment.

John 5:43 Jesus also said he came in his Fathers name and the Jews recieved him not. Jesus concludes by saying if another come in his own name him they would recieve.

Here's the point Mommyjen, The First Seal in Rev 6:2 is the rider on the White Horse which paralells that same thought. The ride on the White Horse will be the anti Christ who the Jews will sign a covenant of death with, just as Jesus predicted they would do (him they will recieve).

There's more in there to see but you had been so kind to at least ask. I just showed you the short version but I think you can clearly see what is happening between the two books.

This is why it appears that the Church is gone by the First Seal. God Bless you


I guess I still don't see how that parallels the first seal. In a parallel, it should be very clear, the conection made. You worte about John 5:22-23:

22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Okay then your parallel is Revelation 5:6-7
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

Now before this in Revelation: See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

So really, there is no parallel at all. The reason Jesus stands is to open the scrolls. There is no judgement spoken of and also when Jesus is judging He is always sitting:

Matthew 25: 31-33
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Revelation 20:11-12
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Do you have Scriptures to say that Jesus will stand up to judge. I have just pointed out two where He is sitting.
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Postby last trump on Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:41 am

Lazarus43

You say I have no scripture think again.

We know that we can come boldly to the Throne of Grace because it tells us that in Heb 6:16. The only time we see the LORD standing is for JUDGMENT see ISAIAH 3:13, It says, "The LORD STANDETH UP to plead, and STANDETH TO JUDGE THE PEOPLE.

Where is in scripture do we see this?? This is an obvious answer, it's when the LAMB STANDS UP in Rev 5!! You can not deny that from scripture, it is so clear.

Your comment that it is an assumption that the Lamb will start Judgment? Wow, that one is way out there because it tells us in John 5:27 that Jesus has been given AUTHORITY TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT. Well, the Lamb coming forward and taking the book out of the right hand of him that sits upon the Throne shows you plainly that he has recieved the authority right there. It is backed up when the LAMB starts Judgment. Does opening the book with the 7 Seals not indicate to JUDGMENT??

And finally the words of Jesus to the Jews all through John 5 where he tells the Jews, who he is, and what will happen. Jesus tells them that they will not come to him for life and then he tells them the consequences.

Jesus said clearly that he came in the Fathers name. Who was Jesus referring to when he said, If Another Comes In His Own Name Him Ye Will Recieve, if not the anti Christ that goes forth to consolidate power and signing a 7 year peace treaty?

There is clear scriptural support for what I said.
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Postby Lazarus43 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:59 am

"last trump",

Please read the post made by "mommyjen" (Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:04 am).

Blessings,
Lazarus43
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Postby bchandler on Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:18 am

last trumpet,

Again you assume again... that the treaty is a peace treaty... I don't see that anywhere in scripture... You call it a cvenant with death... I don't see that anywhere in scripture... You assume that the Lamb is standing to judge, and not to plead...

Do you not think that Jesus will first plead with the world through fulfilledprophecy to turn to him? Do you not think that many of the trials and tribulations that will befall the world are not God's way of "examination by scourging" pleading his case to the world? Leaving them no choice but to acknowledge his existence and then choose a side to stand on?

If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.... don't you think that he will start his final trial with pleadings, and not go straight to final judgement?

Imagine yourself as a parent... telling your children... stop that, or I will spank you... I' m not going to tell you again.. you will get a spanking... ok... here comes the spanking... now.... you have a choice... repent and obey, or you will get another spanking...

It is a series of events designed to bring any and all who will hear into the kingdom... followed by the last seven bowl judgements... which God clearly tells us is HIS UNDILUTED WRATH/ANGER.

If you are willing to listen, and take the most straight forward interpretation of God's word as the most likely... it isn't hard to see the truth. When does God declare his wrath? Not MAN... GOD? What happens prior to GOD declaring his wrath in his word? The grain harvest... followed immediately by the harvest of the GRAPES OF WRATH!!!

We have to be willfully ignorant or blind to the simple plain truth that God shows forth in his word... because a straight forward reading won't allow you to make unwarranted assumptions...

Now... I will admit that there is some deliberate obscurity in scripture as to timing, and whether the seals and trumpets are sequential or concurrent... but frankly I don't think it matters... because If they are wel will know soon enough, and can make the appropriate adjustments, and then have a much better idea of the sequence of events, and when we should be expecting the iminent return of our Master... but... you can't get pre-trib from the direct plain evidence of the word.
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Postby mommyjen on Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:42 am

last trump wrote:Lazarus43

You say I have no scripture think again.

We know that we can come boldly to the Throne of Grace because it tells us that in Heb 6:16. The only time we see the LORD standing is for JUDGMENT see ISAIAH 3:13, It says, "The LORD STANDETH UP to plead, and STANDETH TO JUDGE THE PEOPLE.

Where is in scripture do we see this?? This is an obvious answer, it's when the LAMB STANDS UP in Rev 5!! You can not deny that from scripture, it is so clear.

Your comment that it is an assumption that the Lamb will start Judgment? Wow, that one is way out there because it tells us in John 5:27 that Jesus has been given AUTHORITY TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT. Well, the Lamb coming forward and taking the book out of the right hand of him that sits upon the Throne shows you plainly that he has recieved the authority right there. It is backed up when the LAMB starts Judgment. Does opening the book with the 7 Seals not indicate to JUDGMENT??

And finally the words of Jesus to the Jews all through John 5 where he tells the Jews, who he is, and what will happen. Jesus tells them that they will not come to him for life and then he tells them the consequences.

Jesus said clearly that he came in the Fathers name. Who was Jesus referring to when he said, If Another Comes In His Own Name Him Ye Will Recieve, if not the anti Christ that goes forth to consolidate power and signing a 7 year peace treaty?

There is clear scriptural support for what I said.


The problem with what you posted about Isiaiah 3:13 is that if you look at the verse in context you will see it is talking about judgement against Jerusalem and Judah. Also NIV has a different wording for that verse: 13 The LORD takes his place in court;
he rises to judge the people.

14 The LORD enters into judgment
against the elders and leaders of his people:

I guess I see that you are drawing a conclusion that when Jesus stands up, it is to judge which I have shown Scriptural in my previous post, that it is not the case. And actually even though you said He takes a book, that is not so:

6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,


This is not the Book of Life in which people are judged. I guess I am not sure of what you are talking about regarding that so if you could elaborate that would be great. Also if you can point to, scriptural where the seals are called judgements that would be good too.

Even if the last part you pointed out about the Jews and the first seal. It shows nothing in support for a pre-trib rapture. Also as well, there is also no basis for saying the gospel of John was meant to consecutively correlate with Revelation.

Can you also comment on my previous post, you kind of skipped me- thanks :)
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:47 am

last trump wrote:

It would be nice to actually see what Pre Wrath or Post Trib people believe about what is happening in Rev 4&5. I know this portion of scripture scares them exceedingly.


:rolllaughing:

last trump,

This statement is like saying a frog is afraid to be around water!

Please understand that most of us on this board who are pre-wrath or post-trib were well steeped for years in the "justifying" of pre-trib. We've seen all these arguments before, many of us at one time or another likely used them ourselves to 'prove' pre-trib.

I can only describe my personal journey on this topic. For years, I'd had a nagging feeling that something didn't seem quite right about what I'll refer to as the foundation or pillars of pre-trib. Unlike any other parts of the bible I can recall seeing, these pillars of pre-trib require the reader to make assumptions...assumptions in that they are not clearly spelled out in the scriptures. In all other parts of the scriptures, relating issues apart from the rapture of the church, there really are no 'mysteries' in which the reader must first make several assumptions in order to understand.

Granted, once one makes the assumptions (which upon investigation I could not personally find scriptural support), pre-trib makes a most wonderful theory. But, if, just if those foundations / assumptions (which are not spelled out in the scriptures) are not correct, the entire skyscraper of pre-trib arguments comes crashing to the ground. That's what happened to me. For me personally, to use man-made assumptions to teach others what the Bible meant was to 'add to the Book", both the Book of Revelation and to the Bible in general.

Revelation 22:

18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Am I correct in no longer being pre-trib? I don't know. I just know that for me personally, I can no longer take anyone elses' 'word for it' relative to this topic. I can no longer see that pre-trib is scriptural, on its own merits. Pre-trib's assumptions might very well prove to be accurate; however, IMO, they are not given to us in the Bible.

Leading pre-trib Bible scholars constantly use assumptions trying to point out what was 'NOT SAID" instead of pointing to what "WAS said" in support of their arguments. IMO, the scriptures say what they mean, and they mean what they say. To do anything else, in my opinion, is to use man-made assumptions, and when we do that, human nature creeps in for us to write the story as we'd like to have it written.

BTW, I can tell you that when I came to my existing realization, for a couple of days, I felt as if I'd had a rug pulled out from under me. For the first time in my Christian walk, I realized that (as I now comprehend the scriptures), my family and I will most likely not be zapped away from the earth to escape from the wrath of Satan (notice I said the wrath of Satan...not the wrath of God.) We are not appointed to receive the wrath of God, but nowhere in the scriptures are we told as the Body of Christ that we'll escape the wrath of Satan. I now believe there is no Biblical precedence to say that we'll escape from the first several horses in Revelation. These horses relate to the horrors / byproducts of what the A/C and mankind do to each other on the earth. Nowhere are we shown that the end-time Church will suddenly be exempt from the attacks from Satan.

In no way do I think one's interpretation of the rapture is a salvation issue. I'll be honest with you, I'd be oh-so-grateful and thankful if pre-trib turns out to be correct. However, I must say I'll be very, very surprised if it is. On the other hand, if there is no pre-trib rapture, my heart will cry out to the overewhelming majority of pre-trib believers who had never in their wildest dreams thought they'd be here to receive the wrath of Satan. The pre-tribbers who frequent this site will not be at all surprised (disappointed possibly, but not surprised) if the pre-trib turns out to be in error. However, I think the overwhelming majority of pre-tribbers in the world have never even thought there was any other concept. I'd never even heard of pre-wrath or post-trib before finding this site, and most folks I've spoken with about it have just assumed that pre-trib is a done deal...after all, nearly all TV and radio evangelists / Bible teachers have guaranteed us that this is the way it will be.. But no more...this frog has hopped out of the water...


YBIC,

Bob
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Postby Triton57 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:41 am

last trump wrote:Greetings Mommyjen

Leading uo to the First Seal.

I had brought up some points about how The Gospel of John paralells with the book of Rev, being that John wrote them both. Here's a couple of those.

John 5:22 says that all Judgment has been given to the Son. Then in Rev 5:6 we see the Lamb Standing which means that Jesus is no longer sitting on the Throne of Grace and has now stood up to Judge.

John 5:27 says, And hath given him authority to execute Judgment, this then paralells with Rev 5:7 when you see the Lamb take the book out of the right hand of him who sat on the Throne. An obvious picture that the Lamb can now start Judgment.

John 5:43 Jesus also said he came in his Fathers name and the Jews recieved him not. Jesus concludes by saying if another come in his own name him they would recieve.

Here's the point Mommyjen, The First Seal in Rev 6:2 is the rider on the White Horse which paralells that same thought. The ride on the White Horse will be the anti Christ who the Jews will sign a covenant of death with, just as Jesus predicted they would do (him they will recieve).

There's more in there to see but you had been so kind to at least ask. I just showed you the short version but I think you can clearly see what is happening between the two books.

This is why it appears that the Church is gone by the First Seal. God Bless you

I think there's sufficient evidence that the first seal already took place in January 2007. I agree that the first seal coincides with the antichrist's confirmed covenant.

The clarity comes into play when you look at history and Bible prophecy. Ezekiel's 430 days, Daniel's 70 Weeks, the 14,000 days, and the exact day prophecies of Daniel and Revelation all come together to reveal the depth and detail of God's Word to those who believe and bring new meaning to...
    Amos 3:7
    Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
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Postby last trump on Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:03 pm

You people think the First Seal has been opened?? Based upon what? Where is your scripture to back it up??

And some of you think I'm reading between the lines when I give you scripture. Amazing, people will believe just about anything.

Wow :eek:
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Postby 1whowaits on Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:28 pm

OBXbob, well said!!! Looks like many of us have had the same 'eye-opening' experience.
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Postby grace2all on Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:11 pm

last trump wrote:You people think the First Seal has been opened?? Based upon what? Where is your scripture to back it up??

And some of you think I'm reading between the lines when I give you scripture. Amazing, people will believe just about anything.

Wow :eek:


Forgive me if I missed something since this is a long thread, but I don't recall reading a lot of posts here saying that we believe the First Seal has been opened. From what I see, one person suggests that it may have.

If you have issue with this, you can address the person directly. Actually, that's probably a whole new thread. LOL

Please don't lump all/most in that opinion and assume most pre-wrathers/post-tribbers hold to this position.
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Postby Jeremiah 4:27 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:21 pm

Good debate here;

If we are in the seals as of Jan/07 using say the ENP as the peace deal, then as we go along into the 4th seal and a 1/4 of the world population of 6.6 billion is put to death by the sword of pale rider, then the second woe of the six trumphet also kill another 1/3 of the 6.6 billion remaining.
My question is satan's wrath good for a quarter but a 1/3 must be God's wrath.

Let's do some math 6.6 billion people x's .25= 1.65 billion killed satan's wrath ?
6.6-1.65 = 4.95 billion left (4th seal remaining pop.)
4.95 x's .33= 1.63 billion killed (6th trumphet pop.) God's wrath

The funny thing here is if the church is raptured around the end of the 5th seal, the 4.95 billion number will be smaller by the living raptured.
So the 1.63 billion killed by God's wrath will be reduced even more.

Just looking at the these two (4th seal and 6th trumpet) ,looks like satan got the bigger wrath going on. Makes one think if its not just pre-wrath but I'd say wrath period all around at the same time just like Rev 4 & 5 happening as a quick immediate twinkling precept to Chapter 6.
My people shall never be put to shame. "And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,...."but you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end;........ So we must be here as evidenced by this blessed site.. "knowledge shall increase" :)
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Postby mommyjen on Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:01 pm

You totally didn't address my posts Last Triump! Am I invisible :bag:
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:38 pm

Welcome to the club, mommyjen. Last trump seems to never address anyone's points, all the while he gripes about how certain points he's made haven't been addressed...that is...the specific points that he wants addressed, rather than those points he made which people are addressing (he can't handle the heat methinks).

Last trump, once again I ask that if you want to discuss these issues with me further to send me a PRIVATE MESSAGE. I have it on good authority that at least one of the Mod Team has also told you to do just that. Why the resistance? Afraid that you'll have to take a serious and hard look at your pre-Trib assumptions?

Last trump, I look for Biblical Truth. My desire isn't to defend this position or that, but to defend Biblical Truth. It just so happens that I see post-Trib as being Biblical Truth. IMO, pre-Trib is a heresy.
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Postby last trump on Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:11 am

Bob

For someone who is defending Biblical truth it's noteworthy that you didn't use one scripture in this thread.

Again for all to see, nobody has any answers for what is happening in Rev 4&5 as it leads up to the First Seal. The Pre Trib view is only one that seems to be able to give answers from Rev 4&5.

The First Seal sees a world leader coming forth to conquer but he is not killing people, that doesn't happen until the second Seal. The Anti Christ will be very charismatic and as Jesus said, if another comes in his own name, him ye will recieve. For those of you that don't seem to see anything from scripture, Jesus was talking to the Jews in John 5 when he said that. So, it will be the Jews who recieve this false messiah being as Jesus was the messiah the Jews rejected. Remember that was in John 5:40-43. Jesus told them the consequences and you see that in Rev 6:2 with the First Seal and the Rider on the White Horse. Speaking of horses, you can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.
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Postby Lazarus43 on Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:32 am

last trump wrote:Again for all to see, nobody has any answers for what is happening in Rev 4&5 as it leads up to the First Seal. The Pre Trib view is only one that seems to be able to give answers from Rev 4&5.
False statement. Please read what "mommyjen" has posted.

last trump wrote:The First Seal sees a world leader coming forth to conquer but he is not killing people, that doesn't happen until the second Seal. The Anti Christ will be very charismatic and as Jesus said, if another comes in his own name, him ye will recieve. For those of you that don't seem to see anything from scripture, Jesus was talking to the Jews in John 5 when he said that. So, it will be the Jews who recieve this false messiah being as Jesus was the messiah the Jews rejected. Remember that was in John 5:40-43. Jesus told them the consequences and you see that in Rev 6:2 with the First Seal and the Rider on the White Horse.
Repeating false assumptions does not make them any less false. Again, please read the posts made by "mommyjen".

last trump wrote:Speaking of horses, you can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.
Speaking of yourself? Nothing personal.

Blessings,
Lazarus43
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Postby mommyjen on Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:42 am

I guess Last Trump, I am not sure what you mean by no one has answered you adequately on what is happening in Revelation 4&5? I showed you that Jesus does not stand to judge, He sits, two Scripture verses. Then I showed you how your supporting verse for what you said in Isaiah is taken completely out of context.

Please rearead my posts because I feel like you are totally ignoring me and I haven't even said anything rude to you or mean. I am just posting Sripture and that is what I normally do because it is the only thing I can rely on because there are so many different views. Is there another reason you are ignoring me? Please tell me so I know.

What is going on in Revelation 4&5 is self-explanitory to me. What is happening is what is there, John is taken up to heaven in the Spirit and is viewing the heavenly scene taking place before the seals are borken and then Jesus opens the seals. I guess I am not sure what you are asking for. I know in your view, you are saying there are things there, that have not been specifically stated as being there. I can't do that because it is not said. I believe that if the churches were there it would say so. It doesn't. I am not sure why Scripture would be so elusive there and yet clearly show in other places the saints in heaven. You know what I mean? Scripture is clear. It is just that most people are taught to believe it isn't. I was one of those people. I wanted to say that I am not sure that any seals have been opened yet but I am not in heaven so I can't prove it. I am just watching and waiting. Please answer and if you won't at least have the courtesy to let me know why because it is kind of hurting my feelings.
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Postby last trump on Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:31 am

Mommyjen

There are 4 scriptures that show that the Lord will rise (as in not sit) when the Judgment starts.

Is 2:19 says that people will go into the rocks and caves when the LORD RISES to shake the earth. This is repeated in Is 2:21 where the LORD rises to shake the earth. This is what happens when you read REV 6:15-17 when his wrath is come.

Is 3:13 tells us again that the LORD STANDS UP TO JUDGE THE PEOPLE.

How is it Mommyjen that you see no correlation to when we plainly see the LAMB STANDING in Rev 5:6?

Then you see the LAMB take the book out of the right hand of he who sat upon the Throne, Rev 5:7? This shows AUTHORITY has been given.

All of this is shown in John 5

Jesus will Judge John 5:22
Has been given Authority to Judge John 5:27
First Ressurection John 5:25
Both Resurrections John 5:28-29
Jesus Tells the Jews of their rejection. John 5:40-42
Consequences John 5:43 Fulfilled in Rev 6:2

All of this brings us to the First Seal in Rev 6

It is differant at the Great White Throne Judgement when all the dead from the past are called to stand before the Lord. Now we see a Throne which indicates the Lord is sitting to Judge but this is the second resurrection not the first. The seven Seals have to happen first and then....

The rest lived not again until the thousand years were finished and that's the Great White Trhone Judgment.

God Bless....
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:50 am

last trump wrote:Bob

For someone who is defending Biblical truth it's noteworthy that you didn't use one scripture in this thread.

Again for all to see, nobody has any answers for what is happening in Rev 4&5 as it leads up to the First Seal. The Pre Trib view is only one that seems to be able to give answers from Rev 4&5.

The First Seal sees a world leader coming forth to conquer but he is not killing people, that doesn't happen until the second Seal. The Anti Christ will be very charismatic and as Jesus said, if another comes in his own name, him ye will recieve. For those of you that don't seem to see anything from scripture, Jesus was talking to the Jews in John 5 when he said that. So, it will be the Jews who recieve this false messiah being as Jesus was the messiah the Jews rejected. Remember that was in John 5:40-43. Jesus told them the consequences and you see that in Rev 6:2 with the First Seal and the Rider on the White Horse. Speaking of horses, you can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.


Last Trump, if I have not posted Scripture in this thread, at least in response to your posts, it is because I have not been addressing Scriptural points in this thread but rather your obstinate refusal to PM me. Now, are you going to PM me or not so that we can hash these things out? (btw, I am in the habit of posting verses in their context when I do post Scripture, that is...I'll post whole paragraphs - no isolating and twisting verses for this man :wink: )
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Postby mommyjen on Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:27 am

I want to answer this but I have to pack and I am driving home for four days back to WA so it is going to be a little bit. I am in absense. I still fail to see how this points to a rapture before the first seal. Make it crystal clear.
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Postby last trump on Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:17 am

Mommyjen

When you say make it crystal clear. Do you mean have an Angel come down and tell you personally? Just kidding..... We need to look at the language and the language is so very strong as it concerns Judgment and what it means when you see the Lord stand up. You do know that the Lamb is Jesus and Jesus is the Lord so when you see him standing you should look and see what that means! I showed you where to look, so you have no excuse to not look at those scriptures. I look forward to your comments....God Bless you....


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Please send me an e-mail and I promise to respond back. Blessings to you as well Bob.
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Postby Lazarus43 on Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:57 am

last trump wrote:...We need to look at the language and the language is so very strong as it concerns Judgment and what it means when you see the Lord stand up. You do know that the Lamb is Jesus and Jesus is the Lord so when you see him standing you should look and see what that means!


Matthew 20:32 And Jesus stood still, and called them, and said, What will ye that I shall do unto you?

Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

Mark 10:49 And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.

Luke 18:40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

John 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.

************************************************************
*All quotes (KJV).
*Red coloring mine.

I finally figured it out. It means Jesus is standing.

Blessings,
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Postby last trump on Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:12 pm

Lazarus43

You should know better than to look at Jesus when he walked among us as a man. I would expect that from a jehovah witness. Are you ridiculing the LAMB OF GOD! Don't you believe him to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? You know he became lower than the Angels just to walk among us.

What I am pointing out is the LAMB or JESUS in the HEAVENLY scene in Rev 5:6. He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. When you see him stand up in that setting it is no small matter! It is no small matter when he goes and takes the Book out of the right hand of him who sits on the Throne either. Your comment was rather surprising.........
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Postby Jeremiah 4:27 on Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:44 pm

Pre-wrathers and post-tribbers please take a moment to read this rebuttal. And Robert Van Kampen believed the rapture to take place at the six seal too! Was almost convinced after months of the pre-wrath suasion but this last researched paper plus many hours of study with the help of the helper Praise God I'm staying pre-trib with rapture before the first seal Still open-minded 1Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to Wrath... and my newly revealed favorite was the revealing of the scroll in Rev 5:1 having all 7 seals on the outside. In order for the book/scroll to be read all the seals have to be loosened. Can't read a book/scroll until you open it!! :a3:



Robert Van Kampen
"I believe that if Van Kampen were not a wealthy individual then very few, if any, of us would have ever heard of his view. Van Kampen spent a number of years searching for an advocate of his newly developed viewpoint until he was finally able to persuade Marvin Rosenthal to adopt his new theory."

Robert Van Kampen became one of the wealthiest men in America after founding an investment firm in 1974. Van Kampen died, aged 60, in October 2000, awaiting a heart transplant. In the 1970s, Van Kampen developed what is known today as the “pre-wrath” rapture position. Van Kampen was also known to have possessed the largest collection of rare and antique Bibles in North America.
According to one who spent time with Van Kampen at his Chicago area home when he was developing his view, he first eliminated pretribulationism and then excluded posttribulationism. Thus, he had to come up with another view. That view is what he called the “pre-wrath” rapture theory. That title is a misnomer, since pretribulationism is 100% pre-wrath. If we follow consistency in labeling, Van Kampen’s view should be called the three-quarters rapture position, since he teaches that the church will be raptured somewhere in the middle of the last three and a half years of the seventieth week of Daniel.

I believe that if Van Kampen were not a wealthy individual then very few, if any, of us would have ever heard of his view. Van Kampen spent a number of years searching for an advocate of his newly developed viewpoint until he was finally able to persuade Marvin Rosenthal to adopt his new theory. I have a friend who was interviewed extensively by Van Kampen (in the 80s) for the pastorate of the church he attended in the Chicago area. My friend spent hours on the phone with Van Kampen, as he tried to convince him of his strange rapture view. In the end, my friend could not agree with Van Kampen, so he did not have the opportunity to become the pastor of that church. It was clear that Van Kampen was searching for someone to champion his rapture position. Van Kampen finally convinced Marvin Rosenthal of his view. Rosenthal wrote a book called The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, which was published by Thomas Nelson in 1990. Van Kampen apparently subsidized the publishing of the book by buying thousands of copies and sending them to ministers all over North America. This is how the new position was spread. Later Van Kampen came out with his own book called The Sign (three editions, 1992, 1999, 2000) from Crossway Books. He then had published The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple (1997) with Revell.


WHAT IS THE THREE-QUARTERS RAPTURE THEORY?
Van Kampen’s three-quarters rapture view is a blend of midtribulational and posttribulational rationale. Instead of seeing the 24 terms describing the seventieth week of Daniel as denoting various characteristics of a single period, Van Kampen chops them into compartmental segments that contain either the wrath of man and Satan or the wrath of God. Through redefinition, Van Kampen limits the wrath of God to the final year and three-quarters of the seven-year period and deduces that the rapture occurs right before that time period. Van Kampen distinguishes the rapture and the second coming with a gap of one and three-quarters years between them, even though he makes a big deal that they are a single event. Van Kampen has the church continuing through the first three-quarters of the tribulation until the three-quarters point rapture occurs. Thus, the three-quarters rapture theory. Note the chart of Van Kampen’s three-quarters rapture theory. Van Kampen’s theory requires several unique features concerning the church and the tribulation. First, he chops the seventieth week of Daniel into three parts: 1) the beginning of birth pangs (first three and a half years), 2) the great tribulation (first half of the second half of the seven years), 3) the day of the Lord (last half of the second half of the seven years, plus a thirty day period after the second coming). By arbitrarily compartmentalizing the seventieth week of Daniel in this way, Van Kampen prepares the way for his view by saying that the first two period (first three-quarters of the seven-year period) is the wrath of man and Satan but not God’s wrath. By speculating that God’s wrath only occurs during what he labels as “the day of the Lord” (the last quarter of the seventieth week of Daniel), therefore, he says the rapture occurs at that point and keeps the church out of the wrath of God, as promised in the New Testament Epistles.



The Van Kampen innovation differs from the pretribulational view at key points. Pretribulationists agree with Van Kampen that the church will escape the time of God’s wrath. However, pretribulationism equates the time of God’s wrath and the Day of the Lord with the entire seven years of the 70th week of Daniel. Thus, I believe that Scripture supports the pretrib notion that the church will be raptured before the entire 70th week of Daniel.

SOME REASONS WHY VAN KAMPEN’S THEORY IS WRONG

The Van Kampen view of the rapture is not only built upon faulty interpretation of the Bible, but also upon flawed data and logic. In 1990 Marvin Rosenthal released the first published expression of the Van Kampen rapture view in all of history. I immediately purchased and read the book. While I detected many problems with the book, one item stuck out around page 100. Rosenthal made the following statement: “The Greek word thlipsis, translated tribulation or affliction in many English Bibles, occurs twenty times in the New Testament” (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 103). Having done a word study of thlipsis just the week before in my normal study for teaching the Bible in my pastoral duties, it was fresh on my mind and I knew that my computer concordance showed that it actually occurs 45 times in 43 New Testament verses. Why had he not even considered over half of the New Testament references?

The point that Rosenthal was attempting to make when he committed such a glaring factual error was that the word “tribulation” is never used to refer to the first half of Daniel’s 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 103-08). I don’t believe that to be the case since Matthew 24:9 is an instance where “tribulation” (KJV = “afflicted”) refers to the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. Dr. John McLean explains:

Rosenthal has not only overstated his case but has stated as true fact that which is clearly false. A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word “tribulation” (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel. Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation (thlipsis), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name” (NASB). Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation. The second half of the seventieth week is also described as a time of tribulation. Second Thessalonians 1:6 uses the Greek word thlipsin while referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs during the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel: “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin) those who afflicted you” (NASB). Therefore, it is proper and even biblical to refer to, and even describe, the seventieth week of Daniel as “The Tribulation,” or “A Time of Tribulation.” (John McLean, “Chronology and Sequential Structure of John’s Revelation” in Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy, eds., When The Trumpet Sounds (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), p. 341.)
Interestingly, Rosenthal restricts thlipsin “tribulation” to simply trials to be experienced (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 237), while at the same time locating such tribulation in the first half of Daniel’s 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 152). Like Dr. McLean and pretribulationists, Rosenthal equates Matthew 24:9 with the fifth seal judgment as stated in Revelation 6:9–11. This is exactly the understanding of pretribulationism. Yet if Rosenthal admits the obvious logical conclusion—that the tribulation in Matthew 24:9 is the tribulation—then it would provide another item that contradicts his new view and would support the only true pre-wrath position that actually does harmonize all Scriptural data—pretribulationism. Instead, Rosenthal would rather foster an internal contradiction within his system that he apparently expects his followers to overlook.

GOD’S WRATH
As noted earlier, Van Kampen defines only the final quarter of Daniel’s seventieth week, as the Day of the Lord, which according to him is the only time of God’s wrath. He sees the first three quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. But does the Bible make such distinctions? I do not believe it does.

Wrath in Zephaniah

Zephaniah 1:14–18 heaps together a cluster of terms that characterize the future Day of the Lord. Verse 14 labels this time as “the great day of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord.” Then verse 15–18 describe this time with the following descriptions: “that day is a day of wrath,” “a day of trouble and distress,” “a day of wasteness and desolation,” “a day of darkness and gloominess,” “a day of clouds and thick darkness,” “a day of the trumpet and alarm,” “I will bring distress upon men,” and “the day of the Lord’s wrath.” The context supports the notion that all these descriptives apply to the Day of the Lord. Such biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the Day of the Lord into compartmental segments as Van Kampen insists. The text plainly says that the Day of the Lord is a time of both tribulation and God’s wrath. All of the many descriptives in this passage provide a characterization of the Day of the Lord that applies to the entire seven-year period. The Zephaniah passage clearly contradicts the basis upon which Van Kampen attempts to build his recently developed theory. Zephaniah is not alone in providing an obstacle to the Van Kampen speculation.

Wrath in Revelation

Revelation 6:1–17 records the six seal judgments, which are the first reported judgments of the tribulation. Revelation 6 and the seal judgments also contradict the Van Kampen formulation since the Bible describes all six judgments as “. . . the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come . . .” (Rev. 6:16c–17a). Even though Van Kampen cannot recognize God’s wrath, the unbelievers at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation will be able to. Revelation 5 reveals that only the Lamb (Christ) was qualified to open the seals that would begin the first judgments of the tribulation. As we connect the dots of Revelation 5 and 6, there is no basis for saying that the events of the seal judgments are somehow disconnected from Scripture’s characterization as God’s wrath. The following observations about the seal judgments support such a connection:

• The Lamb is the Individual Who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. These are explicit references to the wrath of God, not the wrath of man or Satan as taught by Van Kampen.

• One quarter of the earth’s population is killed (Rev. 6:8).

• The fifth seal reveals that multitudes of Christian martyrs are slain as a result of seal activity, which has to be considered the wrath of the Lamb. God allows this to occur when the Lamb breaks the seal in this part of the seal judgments.

• At the end of the six seal judgments an assessment is given as follows: “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev. 6:16–17). “Him that sitteth on the throne” is God the Father as indicated in chapter 4, thus it is clearly God’s wrath. It is also the Lamb’s wrath (Christ). The passage clearly says “the great day of his wrath is come,” meaning that all six of the seal judgments are classified as God’s wrath.

Van Kampen attempts to say that the events of the seal judgments are not really “God’s” wrath, but the wrath of man. Rosenthal declares, “The word wrath occurs eight times in the book of Revelation. All eight occurrences follow the opening of the sixth seal. The word wrath is never used in connection with the first five seals” (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 176). Rosenthal neglects to tell his readers that Revelation 6:16–17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments. In spite of the Van Kampen claim to follow the plain interpretation of the text (Van Kampen, Rapture Question, p. 23–24.), I believe that Revelation 6:16–17 relates to all six seal judgments for the following reasons:

• Revelation 6:15–17 is an overall report of the human response to God’s judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20–21. In both cases, humanity does not repent so God continues prosecution of the war. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.

• The controlling verb in verse 17, “is come” (êlthen), “is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place” (Robert L. Thomas, Revelation 1–7: An Exegetical Commentary (Moody, 1992), p. 457). Rosenthal’s attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen’s new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.

• Revelation 5 narrates a heavenly scene of Christ pictured as a slain, but victorious Lamb. The Lamb is pictured as worthy to open the seals on a scroll, which result in judgment—the judgment described in the succeeding chapter as the seal judgments. In chapter 6, each one of the seal judgments commences as a result of the Lamb’s breaking of each seal (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12). Since all six seal judgments begin the same way, with the breaking of the seal by the Lamb, one should not be at all surprised that Revelation 6:16–17 summarizes all six judgments as “the wrath of the Lamb,” and “the great day of his wrath.” This cannot be the wrath of man or Satan.

The above information provides ample biblical proof that all six seal judgments are the wrath of God (Lamb). The Van Kampen view teaches, as do pretribulationists, that the first seal judgment (the rise of antichrist) begins in the first part of the seventieth week of Daniel, right after the seven-year period commences. Since all six seal judgments are designated in Scripture as God’s wrath it means that the entire seventieth week of Daniel is called the wrath of God in Revelation 6. Therefore, this passage does not support the Van Kampen interpretation. Since the church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9, and Rev. 3:10), it is clear in light of Revelation 6 that the church will be raptured before the seventieth week of Daniel.


THE DAY OF THE LORD
Another key point has been noted by Robert Thomas about the language of the text in Revelation 6:17 that argues against the Van Kampen theory is the following:

It is difficult to capture the Greek wording in English without a periphrasis such as “the day, that great day.” “The great day” is a title borrowed from the OT (Joel 2:11, 31; Zeph. 1:14; Mal. 4:5). . . . The primary passages from which John draws his images in the description of the sixth seal prove the reference of this phrase to be to the day of the Lord (Joel 2:11, 30-31; cf. Isa. 2:10–11, 19–21; 13:9–13; 34:4, 8; Ezek. 32:7–8; Hos. 10:8)” (Thomas, Revelation, p. 458).
This passage links all the seal judgments to God’s wrath, in contrast to Van Kampen, and even associates it with the day of the Lord. Such biblical facts contradict the recent Rapture view of Van Kampen. This would also support the pretrib understanding that the day of the Lord includes the entire seventieth week of Daniel and thus a time of God’s wrath from which the church is promised deliverance. A biblically accurate summary of the day of the Lord is provided by Dr. Charles Ryrie, who says the following:
In the Bible, the Day of the Lord always involves the broad concept of God's special intervention in human history. The concept includes three facets: 1) a historical facet about God's intervention in Israel's affairs (Joel 1:15; Zephaniah l:14-18) and in the affairs of heathen nations (Isaiah 13:6; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 30:3); 2) an illustrative facet, in which a historical incident of God's intervention also illustrates a future intervention (Isaiah 13:6-13; Joel 2:1-11); 3) an eschatological facet about God's intervention in human history in the future (Isaiah 2:12-19; 4:1; 19:23 25; Jeremiah 30:7-9). Only this third, the eschatological facet, pertains to our discussion of the rapture's timing (Charles C. Ryrie, Come Quickly, Lord Jesus (Harvest House, 1996), p. 106).
Rosenthal invests much in his belief that the day of the Lord is limited to the final quarter of the seventieth week of Daniel. “If expositors get the starting point of the Day of the Lord right,” insists Rosenthal, “the timing of the Rapture becomes clear” (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 117). This is true! But Rosenthal is not able to answer two major points relating to the day of the Lord and the timing of the rapture as put forth by Dr. Ryrie.
First, how can the rapture precede Armageddon and yet be a single event with the second coming, which puts a stop to Armageddon? Armageddon is not a single, confined battle; it is a war (Revelation 16:14). For the church to miss Armageddon, the rapture cannot be a single, continuous event with the second coming. . . . Second, if the Day of the Lord commences with the judgments at the end of the Tribulation, then how can it begin with a time of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:2,3)? Even a superficial knowledge of the Tribulation does not give the impression that there will be any time of peace and safety, except perhaps at the very beginning; certainly not at the end (Ryrie, Come Quickly, pp. 106-07).
In order to make their view work in the abstract, Van Kampen must redefine the nature and scope of terms like the day of the Lord. However, their work does not fit when all of Scripture is considered. Further, their wrong understanding of the key biblical terminology sets the stage for their erroneous conclusion that the rapture will occur three-quarters of the way through the seventieth week of Daniel, instead of before.

CONCLUSION
The brand new innovation of the three-quarters rapture view of Van Kampen is a recent demonstration of just how important it is to build one’s view of Bible prophecy upon an accurate biblical analysis of foundational items such as the nature and scope of the tribulation. As Van Kampen demonstrates in his writings, if one errs at this crucial point then it paves the way for faulty conclusions. It should be clear that Van Kampen must resort to strained characterizations of things like the day of the Lord, the tribulation, and the scope of God’s wrath in order to first avoid pretribulationism and second to support his new three-quarters rapture view. Bible believing Christians should continue to draw strength and hope from the fact that our Lord could rapture His church at any moment. We will not be left standing when our Lord moves history to the point of the commencement of the seventieth week of Daniel. This is our true Blessed Hope. Maranatha! [NOTE: For anyone interested in reading an excellent, in-depth critique of Van Kampen and Rosenthal’s views from a pretribulational perspective, I highly recommend Renald E. Showers, The Pre-Wrath Rapture View: An Examination and Critique (Kregel, 2001).]

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