Rapture before 1st Seal Broken?

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Postby perigrini on Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:44 am

Douggg wrote:Yes, it does Matthew 24:39. The flood in Noah's day came upon the entire world. The flood that is coming is the great tribulation, which Jesus said if those days weren't shorten, then no flesh shall survive.

Another false statement. The Great tribulation was back in Matthew 24:21 AND then the Great Tribulation ends and immediately AFTER the Great tribulation ends Jesus returns (verse 29 & 30)

I'll prove yet again that you are wrong. You say the days of Noah flood reference is the Great Tribulation...that is contrary to what Jesus says.

The Great Tribulation is identify in verse 21.
immedetly AFTER the Great Tribulation are the signs verse 29.
THEN Jesus returns and angels gather elect verse 30 & 31

Jesus says...37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

You say that Jesus is wrong at these days of Noah are the Great Tribulation...which Jesus taught ended PRIOR to His coming.

Don't you see how you are abusing scripture to say the opposite of what it really says? Don't you care?!

Your interpretation throws out that pesky verse 37, which I believe Tharkun already pointed out to you.

Douggg wrote:btw, I guess you must realize that I am right because you just can't bring yourself to give an "yes' or "no' to.... if you are saying within your view that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is the one taken one left? :answerthequestion:

It's a simple question...but I refuse to answer any of your questions until you agree to respect God's Word...something you still decline to do...which is very telling.

Instead I'll just continue to show the errors in your posts so that any lurkers won't be deceived by your false teaching.

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves
2 Peter 2:1

Scripture warns us there will be false teachers.

In Christ,

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Postby Douggg on Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:21 am

Douggg wrote:Yes, it does Matthew 24:39. The flood in Noah's day came upon the entire world. The flood that is coming is the great tribulation, which Jesus said if those days weren't shorten, then no flesh shall survive.

Another false statement. The Great tribulation was back in Matthew 24:21 AND then the Great Tribulation ends and immediately AFTER the Great tribulation ends Jesus returns (verse 29 & 30)


The great tribulation talk begins in Matthew 24:15 and ends in Matthew 24:31. Jesus returns after the tribulation of those days.

However, Jesus's talk on the one taken one left in Matthew 24:36-51, Jesus likened the condition of the world like the days of Noah before the flood. Which means pre-trib. So you are all mixed up, brother pergrinni.

I'll prove yet again that you are wrong. You say the days of Noah flood reference is the Great Tribulation...that is contrary to what Jesus says.


No, I didn't say the "days of Noah flood", but that the condition of the world will be like the the days of Noah before the flood. The upcoming flood is the great triubulation.

The Great Tribulation is identify in verse 21.
immedetly AFTER the Great Tribulation are the signs verse 29.
THEN Jesus returns and angels gather elect verse 30 & 31


Yes the great tribulation begins right after the Jews have fled Jerusalem.
Then in verse 29, AFTER the tribulation of those days, the heavens are upheaveled. In verse 30 the SIGN of the Son of Man shall appear in heavnen. Then all of the tribes shall mourn. Then they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Then, in verse 31, Jesus sends out his angels. They gather the elect.

But what has that got to do with Jesus's talk on the one taken, one left? Verses 29, 30, and 31 are AFTER the tribulation in those days - while the condition of the world for the one taken one left is BEFORE the flood - the great tribulation. The condition of the world that Jesus described like the days of Noah is before the flood.
Jesus says...37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

You say that Jesus is wrong at these days of Noah are the Great Tribulation...which Jesus taught ended PRIOR to His coming.


No, I am saying you are all mixed up :mrgreen: . You are erroneously equating Jesus's coming for the one taken, one left as being Jesus's coming in Matthew 24:30.

Staying within the context of Jesus's talk on the one taken one left...

Matt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Matt 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Matt 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Matt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

Don't you see how you are abusing scripture to say the opposite of what it really says? Don't you care?! Your interpretation throws out that pesky verse 37, which I believe Tharkun already pointed out to you.


I am not abusing scripture. But I see how you are referring to God's word as "pesky".

Douggg wrote:btw, I guess you must realize that I am right because you just can't bring yourself to give an "yes' or "no' to.... if you are saying within your view that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is the one taken one left? :answerthequestion:

It's a simple question...but I refuse to answer any of your questions until you agree to respect God's Word...something you still decline to do...which is very telling.

Instead I'll just continue to show the errors in your posts so that any lurkers won't be deceived by your false teaching.


I hope you continue to post... you are the best friend a pretribber could have... :mrgreen:


Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby perigrini on Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:31 am

Douggg wrote:The great tribulation talk begins in Matthew 24:15 and ends in Matthew 24:31.

Wrong and wrong.

21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matthew 24:21

The Great Tribulation begins in verse 21, not 15.

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matthew 24:29

The Great Tribulation ends prior to verse 29.

Douggg wrote:Jesus returns after the tribulation of those days.

Got one right.

Douggg wrote:However, Jesus's talk on the one taken one left in Matthew 24:36-51, Jesus likened the condition of the world like the days of Noah before the flood.

Wrong again...unless by "condition of the world" you mean the awareness of what is coming upon them...which is what I've explained to you several times now.

Douggg wrote:Which means pre-trib.

Wrong again. You are claiming a point AFTER the AOD and AFTER the Great Tribulation is pretrib...that is irrational.

Douggg wrote:So you are all mixed up, brother pergrinni.

And, of course, wrong again. You continue to abuse scripture and then state that I'm mixed up...you're projecting.

Douggg wrote:No, I didn't say the "days of Noah flood", but that the condition of the world will be like the the days of Noah before the flood. The upcoming flood is the great triubulation.

Wrong again...and I just explained it in my previous post.

There are only 3 possibilities for your statements...
either you don't read posts to you
you simply don't understand them and therefore remain silent
or you are intentionally a false teacher attempting to mislead the church

Douggg wrote:Yes the great tribulation begins right after the Jews have fled Jerusalem.
Then in verse 29, AFTER the tribulation of those days, the heavens are upheaveled. In verse 30 the SIGN of the Son of Man shall appear in heavnen. Then all of the tribes shall mourn. Then they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Then, in verse 31, Jesus sends out his angels. They gather the elect.

Almost entirely correct with the only error being your assumption that it is the Jews who have fled Jerusalem. It may be Jews, but scripture doesn't say that directly. Scripture says "those who are in Judea"...that may include Christians as well, or maybe even mostly Christians...the only indicator is location...not composition.

Douggg wrote:But what has that got to do with Jesus's talk on the one taken, one left?

It has everything to do with it unless you are determined to take those verses out of context (which you consistently do).

Douggg wrote:Verses 29, 30, and 31 are AFTER the tribulation in those days - while the condition of the world for the one taken one left is BEFORE the flood - the great tribulation.

I explained this to you in my last post. Did you read it? You have not clarified what you mean in saying "condition of the world". What scripture teaches is that as in the days of Noah the people did not understand was was coming upon them. What you teach is immaterial...what scripture says is what is important.
Additionally, you keep trying to claim this one taken and one left is before the Great Tribulation. You may view Jesus as a liar, but I do not...and I've already shown you in my previous post how you are arguing against Christ.

Douggg wrote:No, I am saying you are all mixed up :mrgreen: . You are erroneously equating Jesus's coming for the one taken, one left as being Jesus's coming in Matthew 24:30.

You are saying Jesus is all mixed up, because it is Jesus who connected those. The only way to arrive at your conclusion is to discard what Jesus taught and to take the one taken and one left out of context.

Douggg wrote:I am not abusing scripture.

Absolutely you are.

Douggg wrote:But I see how you are referring to God's word as "pesky".

I referred to it as pesky because you keep discarding scripture, taking scripture out of context and claiming meanings that aren't in scripture. So it is pesky to your view.

Douggg wrote:I hope you continue to post... you are the best friend a pretribber could have... :mrgreen:

What you mean as a dig I see as truth...hopefully pretribbers will see the enormous number of errors the pretrib doctrine is built upon and seek God's truth.

So in one post, by my count you made 10 false claims, 2 correct comments and 1 that depends upon a defintion.

And I"m still waiting for you to commit to treating God's Word with respect...something you still haven't commited to do and something your posts indicate you don't value. I call upon you to repent and give God's Word the respect it is due.

I'm curious...what do you do for a living?

In Christ,

perigrini
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Postby Arfur on Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:36 am

Doug,

I am not pretrib rapture, but you are right about this--

The flood in Noah's day came upon the entire world. The flood that is coming is the great tribulation, which Jesus said if those days weren't shorten, then no flesh shall survive
.

The tribulation after which the coming of Christ occurs (which is after the event which is immediately after the tribulation) is NOT the Great Tribulation but is the tribulation, the beginning of sorrows, described in Mat.24:4-14 with verses 15 describing a condition happening at that same time.

This time of tribulation is not the Great tribulation. It is after the tribulation, which describes events which also occurred before the flood in Noah’s day, when much of mankind continued on as normal but who ignored what was happening to Gods church at the time,that Christ returns to take some and leave others.

Ok to reiterate--

1. Beginning of sorrows-tribulation among/upon the believers during which the gospel is last preached by the church. Rev.12:9-17 and the events of Rev 11 and Rev14 occur.


2. The ending of this tribulation by the army of Joel 2, Mat. 24:29, 6th seal. 6th trumpet. Zech 14:2

3. Resurrection.

4. Gathering of the recent children of Zion, before and while the vials of wrath proceed, ending at

5 Armageddon and 7th vial (which is NOT Mat.24:30-31.)

You are right that the great tribulation describes the wrath of God which is a greater time of trouble than ever before or shall ever be again upon the whole world except those resurrected, and those gathered to safety from it--Rev .18.

Post tribbers can not answer your question about Noah because their view is unscriptural.

It is impossible that man will be carrying on as usual during and after 5 vials of wrath, and be unaffected by the great lying signs and wonders of the devil, the beast and the false prophet which gathers the armies to resist Christ at Armageddon.

However it is also impossible for the rapture to occur as depicted in the account of Noah, (Heb.11:7) before the troubles leading up to the door being shut.

All of the things described by Jesus in Mat.24:4-14 occurred in Noah’s time before the flood, and it only requires that one read the newspapers to recognize that they are underway now and deepening.

Nothing of the Great tribulation occurred before the flood came upon the ungodly, and those troubles can only begin AFTER the saints are delivered from tribulation according to 2 Thes ch 1.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.



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Postby Triton57 on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:03 am

Douggg wrote:
OBXBob wrote:This seems to make it clear that the Jesus will return, and our gathering together to Him will not come before the AoD first comes to pass.


You have simply drawn the wrong conclusion. Within the context of the verses as Jesus spoke about the one taken one left in Matthew 24:36-51, the condition of the world must be as it was in the days of Noah before the flood. The flood coming is the great tribulation during which millions upon millions will die. The condition of the world which Jesus described as being like in the days of Noah before the great tribulation is "pre" trib.

That is with the view that the "great tribulation" spoken of by Christ is God's wrath. From what I've read in scripture, the great tribulation is the direct result of the man of sin being given power by the dragon and the dragon going after the woman, Israel. Revelation 12,13

Understanding that, the great tribulation has nothing to do with God's wrath, but rather Satan's wrath. The "great tribulation" starts when Satan's wrath is expressed against Israel, and in Revelation 12:17 that wrath is turned from Judea specifically to worldwide persecution by Satan of Jews and anyone holding the testimony of Christ. It is this scattering of the holy people by Satan and his minions that results in the great tribulation starting. Christ directly links the start of this great tribulation with the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet who placed this event in the midst of a 7-year period of time appointed to the nation of Israel. This same difference between God's plans and Satan's plans is how I believe Herb's research combines with my own. The 70th week is God's plan, the covenant with many is the dragon's plan.

The days of Noah was God's wrath against the evil in the world. That same type of the days of Noah would then associate with the day of the Lord beginning rather than Satan's wrath against Israel and then all of God's people.

Recognizing this difference, we know God's wrath won't come before the abomination of desolation because Joel 2:31 says the day of the Lord comes after the sixth seal.
    Joel 2:31
    The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

    Matthew 24:29
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And Matthew 24:29 places the sixth seal "immediately after the tribulation of those days" referring back to Matthew 24:15-28. That is the same unparalleled time prophecied specifically for Israel as mirrored in Jeremiah 30:4-7 and Daniel 12:1. This is the time of Jacob's trouble, which is cut short so that the 1/3 remnant of Israel will remain as promised. Zechariah 13:8,9

Douggg wrote:There are no signs given by Jesus of the one taken one left - only the condition of the world at that time. Jesus said just be ready and be watching (Matthew 24:42,44.

So whatever conclusions you draw from other passages elsewhere in the bible, those conclusions must meet the requirement of the world being like it was in the days of Noah before the flood in order to be valid.

Again, if your assumption that the great tribulation is God's wrath, which I believe scripture directly refutes. Satan didn't cause the flood, God did. God doesn't start the great tribulation, Satan does.
    Revelation 12:13
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    Matthew 24:15-21
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
I realize you don't associate the casting out of Satan with the abomination of desolation. That's fine, you don't need to see that to recognize that Christ places the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week AND that the abomination of desolation is the start of the great tribulation.

I think it's logic that connects the casting out of Satan with the abominiation of desolation since Christ warned them to run to the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation, and it is when Satan is cast out of heaven that he goes after Israel. Therefore, if it's so important not to get anything out of your house or come in from the field when the AoD happens, then the wrath of Satan after being cast down must follow soon enough after the AoD to merrit the warning to run quickly.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby OBXBob on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:33 am

Pretty interesting news, eh?

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=22251

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby Triton57 on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:40 am

Arfur wrote:You are right that the great tribulation describes the wrath of God which is a greater time of trouble than ever before or shall ever be again upon the whole world except those resurrected, and those gathered to safety from it--Rev .18.
    Matthew 24:15-22
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Jeremiah 30:4-7
    And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

    Daniel 12:1
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Notice how the bolded and underlined sections match across all three scriptures. You can't have three different times all claiming to be the worst time in history such that there is no other day like it... unless they are all talking of the same time. What this means is that the cutting short of the time has nothing to do with the church as the two Old Testament scriptures also speaking of this time quite clearly speak directly to Israel and label this time as the time of Jacob's trouble.

I also disagree that the time starting with the abominiation of desolation is God's wrath. God's wrath doesn't start until the day of the Lord as I pointed out in the post above. Joel 2:31 places the day of the Lord after the sixth seal, which Matthew 24:29 places "immediately after the tribulation of those days," speaking to the previous scripture in Matthew 24 labelled as unparalleled in all of history. This gives us a direct sequence of events. Of course if the definitions aren't completely defined first, such as "great tribulation" according to their context, then one's whole perspective of Bible prophecy can be skewed. That's why I tried to really define in context, the different terms. It's also important that we clarify and define those terms in discussion so that five people, all with different ideas of the term in their head, can be thinking the same in discussion and reduce division caused by miscommunication.

Israel is protected for 1260 days from the dragon. Therefore the time of Jacob's trouble (great tribulation), which starts with the persecution of the dragon they are protected from later, must end less than 30 days after it starts since Daniel 12:11 places 1290 days after the abomination of desolation, which Christ said began the "great tribulation."

Arfur wrote:Post tribbers can not answer your question about Noah because their view is unscriptural.

It is impossible that man will be carrying on as usual during and after 5 vials of wrath, and be unaffected by the great lying signs and wonders of the devil, the beast and the false prophet which gathers the armies to resist Christ at Armageddon.

I agree.
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:27 am

However, Jesus's talk on the one taken one left in Matthew 24:36-51, Jesus likened the condition of the world like the days of Noah before the flood. Which means pre-trib. So you are all mixed up, brother pergrinni.


Dougg,

I have to disagree with this. "Before the flood" does not equal "pre-trib". The Flood was the specific event that actually destroyed the wicked out of the land. This would correspond, in my view, to the second coming, when Jesus actually destroys all of the wicked out of the land.

So "before the flood" would correspond to "before the second coming", and this would not be pre-trib.

While I do think that the rapture of the church happens at the beginning of the 70th week, I do not believe that the rapture of the church is refered to in the Olivette Discourse.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:43 am

Douggg wrote:
Yes the great tribulation begins right after the Jews have fled Jerusalem.
Then in verse 29, AFTER the tribulation of those days, the heavens are upheaveled. In verse 30 the SIGN of the Son of Man shall appear in heavnen. Then all of the tribes shall mourn. Then they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Then, in verse 31, Jesus sends out his angels. They gather the elect.


Almost entirely correct with the only error being your assumption that it is the Jews who have fled Jerusalem. It may be Jews, but scripture doesn't say that directly. Scripture says "those who are in Judea"...that may include Christians as well, or maybe even mostly Christians...the only indicator is location...not composition.


Hi Perigrini,

I haven't had the time yet to really sit down and assimilate all the discussion that's been added to this thread, so I just have to reply as things catch my eye. . .

That being said . . .

On this point, I would say that the ones who are in Judea, and the ones on the housetop, and so forth, need to agree with who is being addressed in this discourse.

Jesus is saying, "when you(plural) see the AoD. . ." "then those (that is, those of the "you[plural]") in Judea. . ."

So that there will be a large group addressed as "you", and of that group, some will be in Judea, and some will be on the housetop.

So to see who it is that is to flee, we need to show who the "you(plural)" is that Jesus is addressing His teaching in this passage to.

Does that make sense?

Love in Christ,
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Rapture before 1st Seal Broken?

Postby Abbershay on Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:43 am

Believer wrote:“Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments and golden crowns (stephanos) on their heads” (Rev. 4:4).

This is who will sit on thrones:

“And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Mat. 19:28).

“…and just as My Father has granted me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Luke 22:29-30).

He who overcomes, I will grant him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Rev. 3:21).

He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations” (Rev. 2:26).


This is he who overcomes:

“For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world – our faith” (1 John 5:4).

“Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5:5).


This is who will have white garments:

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life…” (Rev. 3:5).


This is who receives crowns:

“Everyone who competes in the games exercise self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable crown (stephano), but we an imperishable” (1 Cor. 9:25).

“I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown (stephano) of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Tim. 4:7-8).

“Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown (stephano) of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him” (James 1:12).


This is when we will receive our crowns:

“For who is our hope or joy or crown (stephano) of exultation? Is it not even, you in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?” (1 Thes. 2:19).

“…in the future, there is laid up for me the crown (stephano) of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Tim. 4:7).

“And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown (stephano)of glory” (1 Peter 5:4).

1. a crown
a. a mark of royal or (in general) exalted rank
1. the wreath or garland which was given as a prize to victors in public games
b. metaph. the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness
c. that which is an ornament and honour to one

In Revelation 4, it shows there are recipients of crowns (stephanos), white garments and thrones with Christ before the breaking of the 1st seal.

Question #1: Does Scripture reveal that anyone other than the redeemed overcomer will receive a crown (stephano), white garment or throne?

Question #2: If the answer to the above question is “no”, can we now accept that the rewarded redeemed will be with Christ as He breaks the 1st seal?

Thanks!

Our King is coming!



This is a great post , after all its the facts
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Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:44 am

Triton,

Great point on the connection between Matthew, Daniel, and Jeremiah on who the "elect" in Matthew 24 are!

:clap:

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:12 pm

OBXBob wrote:Dougg,

I take it then that you don't have an explanation for the verses from 2 Thessalonians 2 1-9 (NASB)? You know what...neither did I when I was pre-trib. And those verses are what finally took the scales of my regarding the fact that there is no 7-year pre-trib, per the Word of God. You see, there are some passages that one can wonder what the possible meanings might be. There are verses that leave no room for interpretation. One builds the real story from these verses...such as those found in 2 Thessalonians. I realize you might not agree. Personally, I was floored when I opened my eyes and heart to the significance of these verses. The pre-trib teaching that I'd been taught suddenly began to crumble. I would ask that you prayerfully read over those verses again, specifically the ones I've bolded.

Blessings,

Bob


Hi Bob,

I have to go quickly, I have little time right now, but there is another view of this passage.

Paul tells the Thessallonian congregation, concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him, to not get upset over someone telling them that the day of the Lord had come, as if they had missed the rapture.

First must come the apostasia, and the revealing of the man of sin.

There are three major issues with this passage, which need to be addressed.

One is that Paul does not equate "the coming of the Lord, and our gathering to Him" with the "day of the Lord." So Paul is not saying that "our gathering together to Him" must be preceded by the apostasia and the revealing of the lawless one. It is the day of the Lord that must be preceded by these.

Second, the revealing of the lawless one is not stated by this passage to be the AoD. The man of sin is described as doing this, but that is not stated to be what reveals him.

Third, the meaning of "apostasia". This can mean "rebellion", and it can also mean departure. Throughout Scripture this word is used in conjunction with other words to specify what sort of departure (the literal meaning of the word) is meant. Departure from the faith, departure from the city, what have you. Here, the only qualifying word is "the" departure", to which Paul later adds that he taught them about this while he was with them.
What happens when we search through the teaching of Paul to the Thessalonians to see if there is a departure he taught them about?

The main intent of this passage is that the Thess. congregation was concerned concerning their being gathered to Christ, because they were being told that the day of the Lord had come.

Paul is saying, no, there hasn't been the apostasia, there hasn't been the AoD, therefore, the day of the Lord hasn't come yet. This passage does not in fact teach specifically that the rapture happens after the AoD.

It does teach that the Day of the Lord comes after the apostasia (be it rebellion or rapture), and after the revealing of the man of sin. It further tells us that the man of sin will be the one who sits in the temple, proclaiming himself to be God, but it does not state that this is what "reveals" him.

So I know there is a lot of disagreement over this, but I think if we stay with what is actually stated in this passage, this is what it says.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:29 pm

Perigrini wrote:As president Reagan would have said...now there you go again...


Sigh! I sure miss President Reagan!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby OBXBob on Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:51 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the post. You did a very good job presenting your arguments. These are the exact arguments I used to quote to prove pre-trib (most of the Calvary Chapel pastors (whom I think are wonderful Bible teachers) quote this explanation nearly verbatim, as well.

Let's take another look:

2 Thessalonians 2

1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Interestingly, as I recall, when the Calvary Chapel guys explain this, they say that the deceivers of that time were telling the church of Thessalonica that the rapture had already occurred. This is why they were alarmed.

Let's look at the passage in a reading approach just as one would a letter written today, applying the same logic.

- Notice the first thing this passage says...Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

It would seem that Paul has made the coming of the Lord AND the gathering of the church as the focal point of this passage.

- Again, looking at this logically, would the church be more concerned about having missed the rapture or being present during the Day of Lord? Notice the wording...Day of the Lord has already come. The reading seems to indicate they are alarmed because they have missed something.

I've pasted the first 3 verses again...note the words I have bolded...

1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It appears that the events of verse 1 and the beginning of the Day of the Lord are definitely related.

Check out this parallel:

Matthew 24:

15. When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

So, we see the identical order that Paul gives us in 2 Thessalonians as Jesus told us in Matthew:

1) AoD
2) Jesus returns AND we have the rapture.

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts of the news today that the Sanhedrin want to begin sacrifices for the first time in 1600 years? Pretty cool, huh!

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby Arfur on Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:52 pm

Triton,

I will get back to you about your post to me and others on the timing of the great tribulation being distinct from the time of tribulation.

Gotta go out just now.

Arfur.
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Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:54 pm

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the post. I was not at all surprised by it. These are the exact arguments I used to quote to prove pre-trib (most of the Calvary Chapel pastors (whom I think are wonderful Bible teachers) quote this explanation nearly verbatim.


I would like to point out that this understanding of this passage goes further than Calvary Chapel.

You are correct in that one can state a position based on what words are the subject of the passage, etc.

2 Thessalonians 2

1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Interestingly, as I recall, when the Calvary Chapel guys explain this, they say that the deceivers of that time were telling the church of Thessalonica that the rapture had already occurred. This is why they were alarmed.


Aside from what “the Calvary Chapel guys” (by which I imagine you mean those particular Calvary Chapel teachers which you happened to listen to) said, what does Paul say? They were troubled by the report that the “day of the Lord” had come. Now, whether it meant to them that they had missed the rapture, or whether it meant to them that the current persecution would just get worse and not better, I don’t know for sure, except that Paul says, “concerning the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Him.” This would make it seem to me that they were worried about the ramifications of the Day of the Lord having come, and what that would mean as far as their being gathered together to Christ.

Now, if they believed that the Day of the Lord came first, this would be good news, and they wouldn’t be troubled. If they believed the gathering came first, then this would be troubling news indeed.

If you heard Bible teachers saying that “deceivers of that time were telling the church of Thessalonica that the rapture had already occurred”, well, I would not be able to support that statement from this passage. I believe that we could safely infer that perhaps some were going around saying that “the day of the Lord has come”. This is what the passage supports.

Let's look at the passage in a reading approach just as one would a letter written today, applying the same logic.

- Notice the first thing this passage says...Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

It would seem that Paul has made the coming of the Lord AND the gathering of the church as the focal point of this passage.

- Again, looking at this logically, would the church be more concerned about having missed the rapture or being present during the Day of Lord? Notice the wording...Day of the Lord has already come. The reading seems to indicate they are alarmed because they have missed something.
I’m following you so far. . .

I've pasted the first 3 verses again...note the words I have bolded...

1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It appears that the events of verse 1 and the beginning of the Day of the Lord are definitely related.

Ok, related, but in what way? It seems apparent that the Thess. assembly thought that they had missed the rapture because they were being told it was the day of the Lord.

Let’s say I told you it was Christmas. You replied, “Oh, no! I had so wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving!” So Tharkun comes along and tells you, no, its not December yet, so it can’t be Christmas. In saying that it can’t be Christmas because its not yet December, we are not saying that Thanksgiving is necessarily the last day of November, are we?

In the same way, this passage does not actually state that the “gathering” will be “immediately before” the day of the Lord, nor does it say that it will be after the AoD.

Personally, I do not use this passage to “prove” pre-trib rapture, but I find that it very much harmonizes with it, especially when we consider that Paul is referrencing “the apostasia”.

“Don’t be alarmed,” he wrote, “the departure comes first.”

When I tie this in with what Peri, Tharkun, and Triton are explaining relative to the verses in Matthew 24, it appears that the rapture will occur just before the wrath of God begins...and nowhere do we read that being day 1 of the 70th week.


I completely agree with you that the rapture comes just before God’s wrath, but I find that God’s wrath begins at the beginning of the 70th Week. I could be wrong, and to tell you the truth, I find difficulties with all rapture views, including mine. I simply find lessor difficulties with mine, and that’s why it’s mine.

I find “Beginning of 70th Week” to be least problematic, “End of 70th Week” the second least problematic,” “Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath” to have greater difficulties than these, and “Pre-70th Week” to have the greatest difficulties. (You’ll doubtless notice that I am not using the standard names of these views. I prefer to use names that more correctly discribe the distinctions. While I am “pre-trib”, I am not “pre-week”, but both myself and “pre-week” are “pre-trib”. Both “pre-wrath” and “post-trib” are post trib. I think its no wonder that we can’t agree on prophecy when we don’t even use Biblical terminology, but that’s another :soapbox: )

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts of the news today that the Sanhedrin want to begin sacrifices for the first time in 1600 years?
Very interesting news indeed! I am very interested in how this will develope. The clock is ticking. . .

Just for the record, I could be wrong in my views. If I see the Two Witnesses calling down plagues, it will be a pretty good clue that I will be revising my views. But if I see a sacrifice offered in a re-built temple, well, that will not mean necessarily that we are in the 70th week, since the building of the temple is not prophesied, simply that the prophecies presuppose a temple in existance, with on-going sacrifices. So these things could happen before the 70th week.

It would be possible, for those who believe the temple sacrifices can only occur within the context of the 70th week covenant, that they could believe the 70th week to have begun, when it hasn’t. Now, I think the temple sacrifices will start after the beginning of the 70th week, but that’s just my opinion, and the not a certain sign.

There is at least one fellow I am aware of that is predicting that many will believe that the 70th week starts 3.5 years before it actually does, and that when it actually begins, they will thing it’s the middle, with all the cosmic signs (which actually occur at the beginning and end), and that at the AoD, they will think that it’s the end of the 70th week, and it really is Jesus. I don’t know that I concur with his views, but its interesting nonetheless.

What are your thoughts about the sacrifice thing?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Oh, and thank you for your compliment! :a2:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby OBXBob on Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:39 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the quick response!

Here's why I think the events are related...taken from the following veses in Matthew 24:

Check out this parallel:

Matthew 24:

15. When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

So, we see the identical order that Paul gives us in 2 Thessalonians as Jesus told us in Matthew:

1) AoD (we know the AoD occurs midpoint in the 70th week)
2) Jesus returns AND we have the rapture.

This is why I don't think the wrath of God begins at the beginning of the 70th week. It doesn't begin until after the AoD. Now as far as the wrath from Satan is concerned, I don't know when that will begin. I'm thinking after the AoD, as well.

I'm really excited about the news today. Obviously, it is still to be seen whether they will be allowed to begin the sacrifices. I think by anyone's calendar...His return is getting close!!

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby mark s on Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:55 pm

Hi Bob,

I agree - by any calender, His coming is near!!! We're gonna be with Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now we get to another key point. Is the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 the rapture of the church, or the gathering of Israel? A whole 'nother can'o'worms!

But I've got to get to work! this will have to wait!

God bless you brother!
Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby perigrini on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:04 pm

mark s wrote:I find “Beginning of 70th Week” to be least problematic, “End of 70th Week” the second least problematic,” “Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath” to have greater difficulties than these, and “Pre-70th Week” to have the greatest difficulties. (You’ll doubtless notice that I am not using the standard names of these views. I prefer to use names that more correctly discribe the distinctions. While I am “pre-trib”, I am not “pre-week”, but both myself and “pre-week” are “pre-trib”. Both “pre-wrath” and “post-trib” are post trib.

I think its no wonder that we can’t agree on prophecy when we don’t even use Biblical terminology, but that’s another )

Excellent points on terminology. In the past It's seemed like half the battle in getting people to understand my view is to get them past the poor and often entirely misleading terminology that's been applied to the topic.

As for your specific view...I was beginning to see that you were not a pre-week person...which I'm sure you are aware is not the standard pretrib view (which is fine...just a fact).

It would appear that both of our views are prewrath, although you also identify yours as pretribulation. Can you show me in scripture where we are told we won't have tribulation?

9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Matthew 24:9


33 "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
John 16:33


35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:35


12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer
Romans 12:12


6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit
1 Thessalonians 1:6


These aren't every instance where we're told we will have tribulation, but should be sufficient to indicate we're not promised we won't.

My point is, once we understand that tribulation (greek thlipsis) and wrath (greek orge) are not the same word nor the same thing, then we can understand that Christians will indeed be in the Great Tribulation...and that is confirmed by further scripture...

14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:14

Scripture is patently clear that Christians will come out of the Great Tribulation.

In Christ,

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Postby Abbershay on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:23 pm

YEs there will be christians that will be taken raptured out of the tribualtion but these are not the bride of Christ The bride is taken before the trib..

There are several raptures in the bible.
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Postby perigrini on Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:51 pm

Abbershay wrote:YEs there will be christians that will be taken raptured out of the tribualtion but these are not the bride of Christ The bride is taken before the trib..

There are several raptures in the bible.

Caution...you're heading the way some of the pretribbers who teach a false gospel head with such unbiblical claims.

Please provide scriptural support that proves that there are Christians who are the bride of Christ and others who are not.

And for your review I'll present a verse that proves such a claim is false...

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:26-29

The pretrib view discards or redefines "all" since it doesn't fit with the pretrib doctrine.

I submit that we MUST derive our doctrines from scripture and stop basing our doctrines on the fabrications of men. Can I get anyone to agree with that?


In Christ,

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Postby Arfur on Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:57 am

Triton57 wrote:
Arfur wrote:You are right that the great tribulation describes the wrath of God which is a greater time of trouble than ever before or shall ever be again upon the whole world except those resurrected, and those gathered to safety from it--Rev .18.
    Matthew 24:15-22

    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Jeremiah 30:4-7
    And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

    Daniel 12:1
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Notice how the bolded and underlined sections match across all three scriptures. You can't have three different times all claiming to be the worst time in history such that there is no other day like it... unless they are all talking of the same time. What this means is that the cutting short of the time has nothing to do with the church as the two Old Testament scriptures also speaking of this time quite clearly speak directly to Israel and label this time as the time of Jacob's trouble.


So you believe that the time of trouble leading up to the resurrection is greater than the time of trouble in the day of the Lord.---

great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be

You also believe that that it is in the time leading up to the resurrection, that Jacob has such trouble that is so great that none is like it.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it:

I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

You also believe that the time in which Christ stands up for His people is in the time leading up to the resurrection.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Therefore you believe that the tribulation before Christ returns is greater than the tribulation during the vials of wrath upon the wicked in which no flesh would be saved if it continued.

Therefore you also believe that the time of trouble for Jacob occurs when Christ stands up for them???


I also disagree that the time starting with the abominiation of desolation is God's wrath.


I did not suggest that.

God's wrath doesn't start until the day of the Lord as I pointed out in the post above. Joel 2:31 places the day of the Lord after the sixth seal,


I agree that the day of the Lord begins after the 6th seal, but is announced as coming in the 6th seal. (Joel 2)

Israel is protected for 1260 days from the dragon. Therefore the time of Jacob's trouble (great tribulation), which starts with the persecution of the dragon they are protected from later, must end less than 30 days after it starts since Daniel 12:11 places 1290 days after the abomination of desolation, which Christ said began the "great tribulation."


Christ did not say that the abomination of desolation began the great tribulation. Jesus told his disciples to flee Judea when they recognize the aod through prayer, so that they would not be trapped there or have a last minute rush and the aod refers back to the events of –

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This is why Mat.24:15 is framed so---

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

And verse 16 then states—

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

It is a common mistake to make, to regard the next verses---

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

as a continuation to verses 15-20 instead of that which follows the resurrection.

The reason for this is that the book of Rev. gives Mat.24 in the seals timeline to be like this—

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


This below is a description of the events transpiring from verses 9-12.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

These verses below refer to the situation existing during the great tribulation that is during the wrath of God—(because all men know that Christ has returned and is somewhere, and these great signs and wonders speak of the 6th vial of wrath.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (presence) of the Son of man be. (at Armageddon and after.)
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

(The eagles are already gathered together by the 6th seal, 30 days before before Armageddon.

These below refer to conditions in the unbelieving world leading up to the resurrection, during the tribulation of the believers and following the resurrection.---

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Arfur.
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Postby Douggg on Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:19 am

perigrinni,
So in one post, by my count you made 10 false claims, 2 correct comments and 1 that depends upon a defintion.


You didn't make any points worth responding to. But you are entitled to your opinion... even as mixed up as you are :mrgreen:

You asked me what I do for a living? I am retired.

Peace,

Doug L.
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:12 am

mark s wrote:They were troubled by the report that the “day of the Lord” had come. Now, whether it meant to them that they had missed the rapture, or whether it meant to them that the current persecution would just get worse and not better, I don’t know for sure, except that Paul says, “concerning the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Him.” This would make it seem to me that they were worried about the ramifications of the Day of the Lord having come, and what that would mean as far as their being gathered together to Christ.

Now, if they believed that the Day of the Lord came first, this would be good news, and they wouldn’t be troubled. If they believed the gathering came first, then this would be troubling news indeed.

If you heard Bible teachers saying that “deceivers of that time were telling the church of Thessalonica that the rapture had already occurred”, well, I would not be able to support that statement from this passage. I believe that we could safely infer that perhaps some were going around saying that “the day of the Lord has come”. This is what the passage supports.

I agree. I believe the "day of Christ" is our rapture and the "day of the Lord" is God's wrath. The links explain why I believe this.

Luke 21:34-36 tells us we will escape this time and stand before the Son of man. We see in Revelation 7:9, multitudes beyond counting of those in white robes standing before the Son of man. This is just after the sixth seal and before the seventh as far as placement in Revelation. This isn't definitive, but along with all the other evidence, it sure compliments it.

mark s wrote:
When I tie this in with what Peri, Tharkun, and Triton are explaining relative to the verses in Matthew 24, it appears that the rapture will occur just before the wrath of God begins...and nowhere do we read that being day 1 of the 70th week.


I completely agree with you that the rapture comes just before God’s wrath, but I find that God’s wrath begins at the beginning of the 70th Week. I could be wrong, and to tell you the truth, I find difficulties with all rapture views, including mine. I simply find lessor difficulties with mine, and that’s why it’s mine.

I find “Beginning of 70th Week” to be least problematic, “End of 70th Week” the second least problematic,” “Post-Trib/Pre-Wrath” to have greater difficulties than these, and “Pre-70th Week” to have the greatest difficulties. (You’ll doubtless notice that I am not using the standard names of these views. I prefer to use names that more correctly discribe the distinctions. While I am “pre-trib”, I am not “pre-week”, but both myself and “pre-week” are “pre-trib”. Both “pre-wrath” and “post-trib” are post trib. I think its no wonder that we can’t agree on prophecy when we don’t even use Biblical terminology, but that’s another :soapbox: )

Joel 2:31 states that the day of the Lord is after the sixth seal.
Matthew 24:29 states that the sixth seal is "immediately after the tribulation of those days," referring to Matthew 24:15-28, which is directly connected to the nation of Israel and called the time of Jacob's trouble. Jeremiah 30:4-7 & Daniel 12:1

We know Israel is protected for 1260 days after the dragon gets 2/3 of her after being cast out of heaven. Revelation 12:14 | Zechariah 13:8,9

We also know Daniel 12:11 places 1290 days after the abomination of desolation. That leaves 30 days in which the dragon can get Israel. This happens beginning at the abomination of desolation since Christ Himself warned them in Judea to run to the mountains when they saw this event. Therefore, the time of Jacob's trouble to which Matthew 24:29 is referring to is actually a 30 day period starting at the abomination of desolation and ending no more than 30 days later. However, all three of the unparalleled passages (Matthew 24:15-22, Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1) say this time is cut short and Israel is saved from it. This would be the 1/3 remnant who are refined through the fire.

Therefore, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" would be about 30 days after the abomination of desolation. This places the sixth seal in the middle of the 70th week since Daniel, to whom Christ refers, places the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week.

I would also like to point out that the great tribulation begins when Satan's wrath is poured out on God's people. Revelation 12 splits this into two focuses. As soon as Lucifer is cast down, he goes after the woman, Israel.
    Revelation 12:13-16
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
It is only after Israel is protected that his attention turns to the remnant of her seed and those holding the testimony of Christ.
    Revelation 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Since Satan's wrath started the great tribulation, it's end is dependent upon his wrath continuing. He is only given 42 months of power from the dragon. Therefore, the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years in length (42 months) starting at the great tribulation. Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 13:5

The first focus is called the time of Jacob's trouble and covers the first 30 days or less and is specifically for Israel. Then, Satan's wrath moves worldwide after that initial month. So the overall great tribulation (which is Satan's wrath) is 3 1/2 years, but the first 30 days upon which the timing of the sixth seal is dependent, is specified for Israel. We know the beasts power is taken away in Revelation 19:20 when Christ returns in glory and casts the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire. More on this splitting of the focus of Satan's wrath on the great tribulation Bible study.

mark s wrote:
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts of the news today that the Sanhedrin want to begin sacrifices for the first time in 1600 years?
Very interesting news indeed! I am very interested in how this will develope. The clock is ticking. . .

Just for the record, I could be wrong in my views. If I see the Two Witnesses calling down plagues, it will be a pretty good clue that I will be revising my views. But if I see a sacrifice offered in a re-built temple, well, that will not mean necessarily that we are in the 70th week, since the building of the temple is not prophesied, simply that the prophecies presuppose a temple in existance, with on-going sacrifices. So these things could happen before the 70th week.

It would be possible, for those who believe the temple sacrifices can only occur within the context of the 70th week covenant, that they could believe the 70th week to have begun, when it hasn’t. Now, I think the temple sacrifices will start after the beginning of the 70th week, but that’s just my opinion, and the not a certain sign.

There is at least one fellow I am aware of that is predicting that many will believe that the 70th week starts 3.5 years before it actually does, and that when it actually begins, they will thing it’s the middle, with all the cosmic signs (which actually occur at the beginning and end), and that at the AoD, they will think that it’s the end of the 70th week, and it really is Jesus. I don’t know that I concur with his views, but its interesting nonetheless.

There were signs in the heavens correlating with Revelation 12:1,2 on the Feast of Trumpets, 2005! They also happened to occur exactly 14,000 days after the Jews gave up control of the Temple Mount on June 7, 1967! Coincidence? I believe that was the awakening blast of the 70th week, time will tell. I also think it's interesting that God would start the final 7 years on precisely the Jewish New Year! What better time to start a prophetic period of seven years according to the feasts of Israel?
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:31 am

mark s wrote:Hi Bob,

I agree - by any calender, His coming is near!!! We're gonna be with Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now we get to another key point. Is the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 the rapture of the church, or the gathering of Israel? A whole 'nother can'o'worms!

But I've got to get to work! this will have to wait!

God bless you brother!
Love in Christ,
Mark

I don't have time to format the post, so I ask that you go here to see my view of Matthew 24:29-31. We must take into account the idea of the heavens being shaken. Fortunately, the Bible interprets itself for us and this is a prime example of how and the kind of detail that we get only when using scripture to interpret scripture. The order of events is laid out in the explanation.
    Isaiah 13:10-13
    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:54 am

perigrini wrote:My point is, once we understand that tribulation (greek thlipsis) and wrath (greek orge) are not the same word nor the same thing, then we can understand that Christians will indeed be in the Great Tribulation...and that is confirmed by further scripture...

14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7:14

Scripture is patently clear that Christians will come out of the Great Tribulation.

Understanding the timing aspect of the rapture taking place before God's wrath and after Satan's begins, we must also look at the different groups of believers as divided by the event of the rapture in our space-time.

What I mean is that according to Matthew 25:1-13, not every virgin waiting for the bridegroom has the necessary oil to go out and meet Him. In fact, the ratio is 50% that are shut out of the door. What this means is that some of the church will be removed prior to God's wrath as promised because they love and obey God. Understanding the timing aspect of God's wrath coming, we see that the rapture must fall within a 30 day time period after the abomination of desolation (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4) and before God's wrath (Luke 21:34-36, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11).

However, salvation is not dependent on the church, but on Christ. Even those left behind will have an opportunity to follow Christ, but once the rapture takes place, those not right with Christ at that time will have to go through the time of temptation. These are the church of Thyatira, cast into great tribulation for not repenting of their deeds. Revelation 2:22

So depending on what group of Christians you're talking about related to space-time and Bible prophecy, some Christians will come out of great tribulation. At the same time, Satan's wrath won't reach it's full world-wide potential within 30 days. Not to mention that he's after Israel at first anyways. Revelation 12:13

Therefore it would seem that if we have oil (Holy Spirit) in our lamps, we will be removed at such a timing that the great tribulation will have started, but we are not the focus of that initial time, Israel is. Within a month sometime (we don't know the day or hour) our Lord will catch us away to the marriage of the Lamb. Those raptured are the bride of Christ.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Abbershay on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:12 am

perigrini wrote:
Abbershay wrote:YEs there will be christians that will be taken raptured out of the tribualtion but these are not the bride of Christ The bride is taken before the trib..

There are several raptures in the bible.

Caution...you're heading the way some of the pretribbers who teach a false gospel head with such unbiblical claims.

Please provide scriptural support that proves that there are Christians who are the bride of Christ and others who are not.

And for your review I'll present a verse that proves such a claim is false...

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:26-29

The pretrib view discards or redefines "all" since it doesn't fit with the pretrib doctrine

I submit that we MUST derive our doctrines from scripture and stop basing our doctrines on the fabrications of men. Can I get anyone to agree with that?


In Christ,

perigrini




You can tell by their discription. The word tells for itself. You must first unstand what you are talking about lose that angry spirit you have.

All doesnt mean everyone who considers themselves a christian.
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Postby mark s on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:13 am

Hi Triton,

A couple of things concern me with your definition here.

One is the textual variant present in this verse, as the Received Text and the Majority Text show "day of Christ", while the Critical Text shows "day of the Lord". Are you familiar with the textual reasonings for selecting "day of Christ" for this passage?

Also, do you think that the rapture of the church could be properly spoken of as being "present", or "immediately imminent"?

This is what Robertson, Vincent, Lightfoot, and a number of others attest the meaning of the word to be.

Not that it's come and gone, but that its here now. This is consistent with the NT usage of the word as well.

Here is from the JFB commentary:
is at hand — rather, “is immediately imminent,” literally, “is present”; “is instantly coming.”


So what happens if we try the "substitution test"?

2Th 2:2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Rapture "is present", or "is imminent".

Why would that be troubling, if I told you, the rapture is here!

Follow it through a moment - when you didn't go, and you didn't see me go, what would you think? Obviously, I wouldn't be a trustworthy source, so why should you be bothered by it?

Just some thoughts. . .

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:17 am

Abbershay wrote:
You can tell by their discription. The word tells for itself. You must first unstand what you are talking about lose that angry spirit you have.

I provided scripture that counters what you say and you respond by saying we need to apply a subjective division of scripture and an ad hominem attack. Typical pretrib response.

Abbershay wrote:All doesnt mean everyone who considers themselves a christian.

Of course not..."all" means everyone who IS a Christian. You can't dodge scriptural truth that easily.


In Christ,

perigrini
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Postby mark s on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:18 am

Triton57 wrote:
mark s wrote:Hi Bob,

I agree - by any calender, His coming is near!!! We're gonna be with Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now we get to another key point. Is the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 the rapture of the church, or the gathering of Israel? A whole 'nother can'o'worms!

But I've got to get to work! this will have to wait!

God bless you brother!
Love in Christ,
Mark

I don't have time to format the post, so I ask that you go here to see my view of Matthew 24:29-31. We must take into account the idea of the heavens being shaken. Fortunately, the Bible interprets itself for us and this is a prime example of how and the kind of detail that we get only when using scripture to interpret scripture. The order of events is laid out in the explanation.
    Isaiah 13:10-13
    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Hi Triton,

We've discussed this before, and I am still not so certain that we should so easily overlook specific differences in how events are described, especially when doing so then causes us to have to rearrange the order of presentation without specific textual authority to do so.

Obviously, there is a lot more to it than that. If I am able, I will find the thread in which I discussed this more fully.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby Abbershay on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:24 am

perigrini wrote:
Abbershay wrote:
You can tell by their discription. The word tells for itself. You must first unstand what you are talking about lose that angry spirit you have.

I provided scripture that counters what you say and you respond by saying we need to apply a subjective division of scripture and an ad hominem attack. Typical pretrib response.

Abbershay wrote:All doesnt mean everyone who considers themselves a christian.

Of course not..."all" means everyone who IS a Christian. You can't dodge scriptural truth that easily.
.

In Christ,

perigrini



Not dodging anything , it is just a lot of work to explain a major portion of the bible to someone who is unwilling to learn .
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:26 am

Arfur wrote:
Triton57 wrote:
Arfur wrote:You are right that the great tribulation describes the wrath of God which is a greater time of trouble than ever before or shall ever be again upon the whole world except those resurrected, and those gathered to safety from it--Rev .18.
    Matthew 24:15-22

    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    Jeremiah 30:4-7
    And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

    Daniel 12:1
    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Notice how the bolded and underlined sections match across all three scriptures. You can't have three different times all claiming to be the worst time in history such that there is no other day like it... unless they are all talking of the same time. What this means is that the cutting short of the time has nothing to do with the church as the two Old Testament scriptures also speaking of this time quite clearly speak directly to Israel and label this time as the time of Jacob's trouble.


So you believe that the time of trouble leading up to the resurrection is greater than the time of trouble in the day of the Lord.---

great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be

You also believe that that it is in the time leading up to the resurrection, that Jacob has such trouble that is so great that none is like it.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it:

I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

You also believe that the time in which Christ stands up for His people is in the time leading up to the resurrection.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Therefore you believe that the tribulation before Christ returns is greater than the tribulation during the vials of wrath upon the wicked in which no flesh would be saved if it continued.

Therefore you also believe that the time of trouble for Jacob occurs when Christ stands up for them???
    Matthew 24:15-22
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Christ made the connection of the great tribulation starting at the abomination of desolation, I'm just pointing out what He said. Define great tribulation according to what scripture says.

Also, it is Michael that stands up, not Christ. God doesn't stop the antichrist from killing 2/3 of Israel. The great tribulation all revolves around Satan's wrath. Do you know if the term great tribulation connected to God's wrath in the Bible? Do you have any scriptures?

Of course I believe that God's wrath will be more terrible than anything Satan dishes out, but we must look at where the term "great tribulation" is used and in what context. From there we define it. Just because the term is "great tribulation" doesn't mean that we think of the worst time possible in our minds and connect it to that. We must rely on the Word.

Arfur wrote:
I also disagree that the time starting with the abominiation of desolation is God's wrath.


I did not suggest that.

Arfur wrote:You are right that the great tribulation describes the wrath of God which is a greater time of trouble than ever before or shall ever be again upon the whole world except those resurrected, and those gathered to safety from it--Rev .18.

I'm sorry I misunderstood. I'm thinking of what Christ said in Matthew 24:15-22 which connects the abomination of desolation to the beginning of the great tribulation.

Therefore for you to say that the great tribulation describes the wrath of God, since the great tribulation is tied to the abomination of desolation, made me believe you connected the abomination of desolation with God's wrath.

Arfur wrote:
Israel is protected for 1260 days from the dragon. Therefore the time of Jacob's trouble (great tribulation), which starts with the persecution of the dragon they are protected from later, must end less than 30 days after it starts since Daniel 12:11 places 1290 days after the abomination of desolation, which Christ said began the "great tribulation."


Christ did not say that the abomination of desolation began the great tribulation. Jesus told his disciples to flee Judea when they recognize the aod through prayer, so that they would not be trapped there or have a last minute rush and the aod refers back to the events of –

Through prayer? This is a literal event that is marked by seeing.
    Matthew 24:15-21
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
For when will be great tribulation? Logically, it should follow that the section of scripture just prior to that statement would be applied to the "then." Therefore, the great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation happens since that is what Matthew 24:15-20 is talking about, when they see the abomination of desolation.

Arfur wrote:Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This is why Mat.24:15 is framed so---

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

And verse 16 then states—

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

It is a common mistake to make, to regard the next verses---

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

as a continuation to verses 15-20 instead of that which follows the resurrection.

The reason for this is that the book of Rev. gives Mat.24 in the seals timeline to be like this—

Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I take scripture as it is written. You are swapping passages and placing the tribulation after verse 29 which relies on the specificity of the description of the time surrounding the abomination of desolation.

Arfur wrote:This below is a description of the events transpiring from verses 9-12.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

These verses below refer to the situation existing during the great tribulation that is during the wrath of God—(because all men know that Christ has returned and is somewhere, and these great signs and wonders speak of the 6th vial of wrath.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (presence) of the Son of man be. (at Armageddon and after.)
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

(The eagles are already gathered together by the 6th seal, 30 days before before Armageddon.

These below refer to conditions in the unbelieving world leading up to the resurrection, during the tribulation of the believers---

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Your shifting of scripture confuses what it's plainly saying. If we just read the Bible as it's written, the way the Holy Spirit wrote it through the prophets, it gives us the order we need. Scripture is of no private interpretation. It was written with the Bible interpreting itself so we wouldn't need to fill in details with our lack of understanding of God's plan. God is not the author of confusion and swapping passages of scripture to make it make sense goes against that idea that God isn't the author of confusion. It actually all works together perfectly by just taking the Word for what it says.
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:31 am

mark s wrote:
Triton57 wrote:
mark s wrote:Hi Bob,

I agree - by any calender, His coming is near!!! We're gonna be with Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now we get to another key point. Is the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 the rapture of the church, or the gathering of Israel? A whole 'nother can'o'worms!

But I've got to get to work! this will have to wait!

God bless you brother!
Love in Christ,
Mark

I don't have time to format the post, so I ask that you go here to see my view of Matthew 24:29-31. We must take into account the idea of the heavens being shaken. Fortunately, the Bible interprets itself for us and this is a prime example of how and the kind of detail that we get only when using scripture to interpret scripture. The order of events is laid out in the explanation.
    Isaiah 13:10-13
    For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


Hi Triton,

We've discussed this before, and I am still not so certain that we should so easily overlook specific differences in how events are described, especially when doing so then causes us to have to rearrange the order of presentation without specific textual authority to do so.

Obviously, there is a lot more to it than that. If I am able, I will find the thread in which I discussed this more fully.

If you're speaking of the signs of the sixth seal, what causes the moon to turn red for a hunters moon? The shadow of the earth darkens the surface of the moon by passing its shadow over the moons surface. The light from the sun shining through the atmosphere gives it a red glow, but that is the direct result of the earth's shadow darkening the surface of the moon.

What specifically are you speaking to in regards to the differences in how events are described?
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:36 am

Abbershay wrote:...it is just a lot of work to explain a major portion of the bible to someone who is unwilling to learn .

Yes, I have found it difficult to explain scripture to people who are unwilling to learn or actually accept what scripture teaches.

Not everyone is unwilling to learn, however. Glory to God.


In Christ,

perigrini
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Postby Abbershay on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:39 am

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood around the throne, and the elders, and the four living creatures, and they fell before the throne on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.


Hopefully you can see that this group is different than the bride of christ they have now crowns or thrones and they are not kings and priests.
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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:49 am

Abbershay wrote: Hopefully you can see that this group is different than the bride of christ they have now crowns or thrones and they are not kings and priests.

And you know they don't have crowns how?


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Postby Abbershay on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:56 am

because it says they have reeds in their hands. Also because they are being described by one of the redeemed who actually has a crown and layed it at the feet of lamb.
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Postby Triton57 on Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:56 am

mark s wrote:A couple of things concern me with your definition here.

One is the textual variant present in this verse, as the Received Text and the Majority Text show "day of Christ", while the Critical Text shows "day of the Lord". Are you familiar with the textual reasonings for selecting "day of Christ" for this passage?

I am aware of the Greek and Hebrew concordance and utilize that with faith that the Lord preserved His Word and it is inerrant.
    2 Thessalonians 2:2
    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day G2250 of Christ G5547 is at hand.
      Day (G2250)
      ἡμέρα
      hēmera (hay-mer'-ah)
      Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

      Christ G5547
      Χριστός
      Christos (khris-tos')
      From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

mark s wrote:Also, do you think that the rapture of the church could be properly spoken of as being "present", or "immediately imminent"?

This is what Robertson, Vincent, Lightfoot, and a number of others attest the meaning of the word to be.

It can not happen at any time, there is an appointed time, we just don't know it. I believe the man of sin must be revealed first, but if one doesn't read that in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, then we'll just go in circles. It also must happen before God's wrath. Luke 21:34-36 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

mark s wrote:Not that it's come and gone, but that its here now. This is consistent with the NT usage of the word as well.

Here is from the JFB commentary:
is at hand — rather, “is immediately imminent,” literally, “is present”; “is instantly coming.”

So what happens if we try the "substitution test"?

2Th 2:2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Rapture "is present", or "is imminent".

Why would that be troubling, if I told you, the rapture is here!

Follow it through a moment - when you didn't go, and you didn't see me go, what would you think? Obviously, I wouldn't be a trustworthy source, so why should you be bothered by it?

I believe that the day of Christ is the day of the Lord. We don't see God's wrath, therefore we are removed just prior to it. Look at the scriptures using the day of Christ. These aren't wrath scriptures. So what is supposed to happen at the rapture?
    Luke 21:34-36
    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Revelation 7:9
    After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
So if the day of Christ is at hand, and you know you're supposed to be standing before the throne and before the Lamb, would you not be concerned that you had missed it because you were still on the earth and it seemed like great personal tribulation was starting?
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:08 pm

Abbershay wrote:because it says they have reeds in their hands.

Ah, well that makes sense...so they have palms in their hands which proves they don't have crowns on their heads. /boggle


Abbershay wrote:Also because they are being described by one of the redeemed who actually has a crown and layed it at the feet of lamb.

They're being described by John...but I suspect you're referring to the elder...who is not one of the redeemed unless you begin with the assumption the pretrib view is correct. You are building a doctrine based upon arguements from silence, eisegesis and questionable translations.

Quite a shaky house of cards there.

In Christ,

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Postby mark s on Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:19 pm

If you're speaking of the signs of the sixth seal, what causes the moon to turn red for a hunters moon? The shadow of the earth darkens the surface of the moon by passing its shadow over the moons surface. The light from the sun shining through the atmosphere gives it a red glow, but that is the direct result of the earth's shadow darkening the surface of the moon.

What specifically are you speaking to in regards to the differences in how events are described?


This is a good example. There are others, but we can stay with this one for now.

We read of a blood moon, and a darkened moon. Are these the same, or different? I think you would say the same. I am not so certain. Joel speaks of both, the blood moon in chapter 2, before the Day of the LORD, and the darkened moon in chapter 3, at the judgment of the nations, which is after the second coming.

If they are the same thing, why did he describe it in two different and conflicting ways? A blood moon has some light coming from it, while a darkened moon has no light coming from it. Should we be so quick to discard this distinction, and declare them the same event? And given the timing considerations within Joel?

When we look at the other Scriptures that speak of these, the disctintions seem to line up. The blood moon seems to come first, before, and the darkened moon seems to come later, after.

While we can look at a partial lunar eclipse, and I like to do that as often as possible, can we catagorically state that this is what is being described? And if it is, how does that account for the phenomenal differences, and the timing differences?

Ok, you could argue that it begins a partial eclipse, and ends up as a total eclipse, and I could argue that it takes 7 years to do so. The point is, these are two different descriptions. I don't feel authorized to declare them to be describing the same thing.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:56 pm

Hi Triton,

So you are basically saying that you stick with the Received Text? Or the Majority Text? Do you then reject the Critical Text? I am not talking about the translation of Christos, but rather that some manuscripts have here "Christos", while others have "kurios".

The strength of an argument that is based on a verse with variant readings, where the variant is directly related to your argument, depends on the strength of the argument for which reading you are using.

So I am interested in your argument supporting the reading you are using.

Concerning the "coming of the day of Christ", as the rapture, I am saying that if I came to you and told you that the rapture was now here, this is not the same as saying that it had come and gone.

If I came to you and said, the rapture is now here, would you be upset because you weren't standing before the throne of God, or would you be looking at me like I was an idiot, because I'm still standing there with you. I haven't been raptured, you haven't been raptured, obviously its not actually come.

By the way, I noticed that you expect to be standing before the throne following the rapture. I do too. But when the elect are gathered in Matthew 24, are they taken to heaven? That doesn't seem to fit to me. Isn't that where you see the rapture happening, in Matt. 24? Or am I confused about your view?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:19 pm

I submit that we MUST derive our doctrines from scripture and stop basing our doctrines on the fabrications of men. Can I get anyone to agree with that?


Why, Perigrini, I would think we all would agree with that!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:20 pm

Hi perigrini

It would appear that both of our views are prewrath, although you also identify yours as pretribulation. Can you show me in scripture where we are told we won't have tribulation?


I would not even attempt such a feat.

Mat 7:14 For narrow is the gate, and constricted is the way that leads away into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Here, constricted is from “thlibo”, to press in, which is the same idea as thlipsis, crushing pressure.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
If we needed any more clarity on this, here we learn that we “must through much tribulation (thlipseon – lexically the same as thlipsis) enter into the kingdom of God.”

So I would go so far as to say that if we are not experiencing tribulation, the squeezing, crushing pressure, that we might not be entering into the kingdom of God. I would say that tribulation is not only assured, but that it is required.

But, that does not mean that each of us will experience a particular tribulation.

Take, for instance, the persection of the early church following the stoning of Stephen. Many suffered and died, were beaten, imprisoned, and such. But then there were many that were not. And after that time, when things settled down a bit. Many beleivers lived their lives without suffering the persecution that came from the Jews, or later from the Romans.

They did, I am certain, experience tribulation, but not that tribulation. So while each of us will experience tribulation, does the Bible state that all believers will experience the great tribulation? I would say that obviously any believers who were not alive and on the planet would not, even though they did, in their times, experience tribulation.

So I do not find that the assurance that we will experience tribulation, even that we must experience tribulation, actually teaches that we will experience the great tribulation.

I have in the past carefully examined every occurance of thlipsis, orge, and their derivatives. I have included where these words are used in the Septuagint. I feel that I understand the difference between them, although I recognize my shortcomings in ancient languages, and am always seeking additional knowledge.

Another thing to include in this sort of study is the difference between persecution and tribulation. Persecution can generally be considered to be tribulation, but tribulation can include that which is not persecution.

I will try to examine Rev 7:14 in a separate post.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:43 pm

mark s wrote:
I submit that we MUST derive our doctrines from scripture and stop basing our doctrines on the fabrications of men. Can I get anyone to agree with that?


Why, Perigrini, I would think we all would agree with that!

Love in Christ,
Mark

Sadly you are the only one to actually do so.

While we might all agree with the general concept I think we can agree that not everyone actually applies it (and each side might think that about the other...the point being is that someone is missing something).

I believe one of the problems we have is that people tend not to frequently rexamine their own views but simply look for ways to argue against the views of others.

Scripture says we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith...we should do no less with our doctrines.

Blessings,

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Postby Abbershay on Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:54 pm

perigrini wrote:
Abbershay wrote:because it says they have reeds in their hands.

Ah, well that makes sense...so they have palms in their hands which proves they don't have crowns on their heads. /boggle


Abbershay wrote:Also because they are being described by one of the redeemed who actually has a crown and layed it at the feet of lamb.

They're being described by John...but I suspect you're referring to the elder...who is not one of the redeemed unless you begin with the assumption the pretrib view is correct. You are building a doctrine based upon arguements from silence, eisegesis and questionable translations.

Quite a shaky house of cards there.

In Christ,

perigrini




Its not shakey at all if you believe the word and the promices.
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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:00 pm

mark s wrote:I would not even attempt such a feat.

Brother, your honesty is very refreshing...thank you.

mark s wrote:So I would go so far as to say that if we are not experiencing tribulation, the squeezing, crushing pressure, that we might not be entering into the kingdom of God. I would say that tribulation is not only assured, but that it is required.

I concur, although I'm not 100% comfortable with the word "required", but I won't argue against it either :p

mark s wrote:But, that does not mean that each of us will experience a particular tribulation.

Of course not...but it's the pretrib doctrine's teaching that the rapture will occur prior to the Great Tribulation because none of the church will suffer tribulation...and this simply is in diametric contrast to scripture...as you have indicated above.

mark s wrote:Take, for instance, the persection of the early church following the stoning of Stephen. Many suffered and died, were beaten, imprisoned, and such. But then there were many that were not. And after that time, when things settled down a bit. Many beleivers lived their lives without suffering the persecution that came from the Jews, or later from the Romans.

They did, I am certain, experience tribulation, but not that tribulation. So while each of us will experience tribulation, does the Bible state that all believers will experience the great tribulation? I would say that obviously any believers who were not alive and on the planet would not, even though they did, in their times, experience tribulation.

I wouldn't argue that every single believer will suffer during the Great Tribulation even if they are on the earth at that time.

I think it's quite possible, in fact, that this following passage is a promise that some will be on earth at that time and not suffer the Great Tribulation...

10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Revelation 3:10


mark s wrote:So I do not find that the assurance that we will experience tribulation, even that we must experience tribulation, actually teaches that we will experience the great tribulation.

But really the point isn't rather some individuals might not personally suffer the Great Tribulation but rather that one doctrine claims that because it IS tribulation then that proves the church will not be on earth to suffer it because God would not allow His church to suffer tribulation...and we both know that is a false claim (rather you believe the church will be here or not such a view is not only unsupported scripturally but anti-scriptural).

mark s wrote:I have in the past carefully examined every occurance of thlipsis, orge, and their derivatives. I have included where these words are used in the Septuagint. I feel that I understand the difference between them, although I recognize my shortcomings in ancient languages, and am always seeking additional knowledge.

I commend you...sadly it's not an effort that is part of the standard pretrib view. I've personally seen it stated probably over a hundred times that we are not destined for wrath and therefore we won't be here for the great tribulation. But that statement ignores the fact that to arrive at such a conclusion is to ignore the meaning of words. It assumes God wasn't familiar enough with Greek to inspire the Biblical authors to use the appropriate words.

mark s wrote:Another thing to include in this sort of study is the difference between persecution and tribulation. Persecution can generally be considered to be tribulation, but tribulation can include that which is not persecution.

I agree with you, although I don't see this as particularly germane unless someone begins to claim we won't be on the earth during any persecution because we're promised we're not destined for God's wrath.

God bless.

YBIC

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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:04 pm

Abbershay wrote:
Its not shakey at all if you believe the word and the promices.

Abbershay, I believe God's Word and His promises. It's pointless to exchange snarky comments.

The simple fact remains that the pretrib view is based upon scripture taken out of context, eisegesis and fabrication.

If you wish to explore that further you can look up some of the hundreds of posts that I've proved it in the past...although I expect you won't and simply question my faith or some other sort of ad hominem. Whatever.


In Christ,

perigrini
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Postby Abbershay on Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:07 pm

perigrini wrote:
Abbershay wrote:because it says they have reeds in their hands.

Ah, well that makes sense...so they have palms in their hands which proves they don't have crowns on their heads. /boggle


Abbershay wrote:Also because they are being described by one of the redeemed who actually has a crown and layed it at the feet of lamb.

They're being described by John...but I suspect you're referring to the elder...who is not one of the redeemed unless you begin with the assumption the pretrib view is correct. You are building a doctrine based upon arguements from silence, eisegesis and questionable translations.

Quite a shaky house of cards there.

In Christ,

perigrini





Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the Booke, and to open the seales thereof: for thou wast slaine, and hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood, out of euery kinred, and tongue, and people, and nation:
Rev 5:10 And hast made vs vnto our God Kings and Priests, and we shall reigne on the earth.


this is the description of the elders. It says they are the redeemed.

Please i beg you in humility to take off your pride blinders so you can see.
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Postby mark s on Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:10 pm

perigrini wrote:
mark s wrote:
I submit that we MUST derive our doctrines from scripture and stop basing our doctrines on the fabrications of men. Can I get anyone to agree with that?


Why, Perigrini, I would think we all would agree with that!

Love in Christ,
Mark

Sadly you are the only one to actually do so.

While we might all agree with the general concept I think we can agree that not everyone actually applies it (and each side might think that about the other...the point being is that someone is missing something).

I believe one of the problems we have is that people tend not to frequently rexamine their own views but simply look for ways to argue against the views of others.

Scripture says we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith...we should do no less with our doctrines.

Blessings,

perigrini


Well said!

This is part and parcel to my being on this board. Not only are there some terrific people posting on this forum, and not only is this a great place to stay up on current events, but as a pre-wrath board, it is a fantastic sharpening stone.

I want to hear the best arguments in favor of other views, while I show my views, so that others can find the flaws.

But I do believe you are right, and that Scripture teaches on things, and while we disagree, that shows that someone hasn't got it right.

I would not be one bit surprised to find out that none of us have the full scoop, but so long as we are humble, and seeking, I trust the Lord to lead us.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby perigrini on Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:16 pm

Abbershay wrote:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the Booke, and to open the seales thereof: for thou wast slaine, and hast redeemed vs to God by thy blood, out of euery kinred, and tongue, and people, and nation:
Rev 5:10 And hast made vs vnto our God Kings and Priests, and we shall reigne on the earth.


this is the description of the elders. It says they are the redeemed.


9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Revelation 5:9-10 NASB

I've already told you that such a view is based upon a disputed translation.
They are not the redeemed.

Abbershay wrote:Please i beg you in humility to take off your pride blinders so you can see.

Abbershay...your personal attacks are growing tiresome.

I submit, yet again, that we should obtain our doctrines from scripture ALONE and not the fabrications of men.

You accuse me of pride...if I must suffer your personal insults for remaining faithful to the scriptures so be it. You might want to reflect on what that says about yourself.

In Christ,

perigrini
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