Herb-Daniel's 70th week

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Herb-Daniel's 70th week

Postby hirutbuddy on Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:27 am

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Postby hirutbuddy on Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:28 am

:sofa: :sheep:
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Postby hirutbuddy on Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:29 am

So, in this one report, we serious students of Bible prophecy may have all we need to suspect that we could already be in the 70th week of Daniel. And in my opinion, the only arguments that can be raised against this possibility are based either on past speculations, or ignorance of the facts on the ground -- not the Bible.

Does that mean I know for sure we're in the 70th week? Although I believe all the evidence suggests this, I allow room that I could be reading things wrong. However, I know what I see. And so far, what I see matches the prophecy of Daniel's 70th week.
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Postby OneDay on Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:07 am

I agree 100 percent w/ you Herb! But, point this out to the average person, or even Christian, & they look at you like you are from Mars!I sometimes feel like Noah, it's so sad. I wonder at what point in this Christians will start to take notice? So many that I speak with don't want to think about it because they say it's too depressing, they want to focus on up lifting things. They even call me Henny Penny, LOL! We'll just keep praying & witnessing! Thank You!!! :blessyou:
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:35 am

I was talking to a co-worker yesterday and we were discussing end-times and she told me that we are not supposed to be concerned with it or obsessing over it. Pretty sad.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


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Postby hirutbuddy on Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:49 am

I agree with Herb, there is no denying that we are in the 70th week. Jesus told us that when they say "peace and safety"sudden destruction will come. We are in that time. Everywhere we look we are hearing leaders say these prophetic words. But, we are not in darkness that that day will not overtake us. :wink:
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Postby biscotti on Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:07 pm

Final Trumpet wrote:I was talking to a co-worker yesterday and we were discussing end-times and she told me that we are not supposed to be concerned with it or obsessing over it. Pretty sad.


I talk to people that say that too... I always ask them why Paul taught about the end in 1/2 Thesallonians if we are not to be concerned about it? Or why Jesus spoke of it in Matthew and Luke? Or what is the point of even having the book of Revelation? What about Zechariah? Or Ezekiel? Or Amos? Or Psalms? Or Isaiah?

They and many others speak of "Last Days" and impending judgement. But most claiming to be Christian have never read more than a few select passages from the Bible - a feel-good verse here or there.

"Our Daily Bread" is more like a daily cracker....
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:26 pm

biscotti wrote:"Our Daily Bread" is more like a daily cracker....


Yeah, those little oyster crackers. :(
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


Days of Noah

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, & insist on their literal interpretations, in the midst of much clamor & opposition."
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Postby flyjerryfly on Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:36 pm

I too am pretty sure we've been in the 70th week for sometime now.

But let me say again that I believe the Lord is using His calendar and
His Feast as His time table for the Rapture and the Second Coming.

God Bless
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Postby Passion on Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:49 pm

flyjerryfly, I love your name and avatar! Awesome! :banana:
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Postby Passion on Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:54 pm

Final Trumpet wrote:I was talking to a co-worker yesterday and we were discussing end-times and she told me that we are not supposed to be concerned with it or obsessing over it. Pretty sad.


You know, I've heard a few pastors talking about that--well, not that exactly. What they were saying is that we shouldn't be spending all our time obsessing over the exact day Jesus raptures us, since we'll never know anyway--but instead to keep "looking up", expecting Him at any moment, and using our time left here to bring others to Him.

I wonder if some people interpret this type of advice as meaning they shouldn't study prophecy at all or warn others? :humm: :dunno:
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Postby jereome on Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:41 pm

hirutbuddy wrote:So, in this one report, we serious students of Bible prophecy may have all we need to suspect that we could already be in the 70th week of Daniel. And in my opinion, the only arguments that can be raised against this possibility are based either on past speculations, or ignorance of the facts on the ground -- not the Bible.

Does that mean I know for sure we're in the 70th week? Although I believe all the evidence suggests this, I allow room that I could be reading things wrong. However, I know what I see. And so far, what I see matches the prophecy of Daniel's 70th week.


Not true, you will know when the time period for the last week has started when the 7 seals are opened.

Mathew 24:
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


If you look at Mathew 24 and its counterpart in Luke, you will see that the signs he gives are the exact same signs that there will be during the opening of the seals, and those have not clearly been opened yet.

Revelation 6:
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


First off nobody can prove that the Antichrist has stepped on the scene, sure you might point to Solona, but from my opinion authoring recommendation 666 is a pretty shoddy excuse to point at someone and say that hes the Antichrist.

Also Im not a die hard fan of interpreting this verse as it having to be the Antichrist, because if you look at the context it could also be Gog / Magog.

Ezekial 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.


Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


Next you see the red horseman clearly describing world war 3, because it says he has power to take away peace from the EARTH, and not just a few nations like we are experiencing now.

And if you listen to Christ when he says that the end of the age will be like birth pangs, then this war being described in Revelation 6, will be the biggest war that the world has ever had up to that date.

Since we arent in world war 3, then we clearly arent in the 70th week.

Revelation 6:
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


Nope we arent in a global depression.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


Nor have we seen upwards of 1.2 billion people dying.

Revelation 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Nor have we seen a world wide global persecution.

Revelation 6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Nor have we seen the moon becoming as blood and the sun darkening coupled with a pole shift.

Isaiah 24:1
Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.


Nor have we seen Israel turn to God (seventh seal), the two witnesses, the temple being rebuilt or any other sign, that would indicate that we aren in the 70th week.

Mathew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


So no if you take the words of Jesus literally then we clearly arent in the 70th week.[/quote]
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Postby Herb on Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:54 pm

You missed something jereome. Jesus also said:

but the end is not yet.


In my opinion what you have posted is just speculation. In fact, if we take Jesus' words literally, He's saying just the opposite -- these things are not to be considered signs. The sign is the coming of our persecution and the antichrist. This is how Paul understood Jesus' words (2 Thes. 2:1-4), and how John understood His words (1 John 2:18).

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Postby hirutbuddy on Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:01 pm

You are speculating Jerome. No where does it say the opening of the seals results in ww3. What we are told is that "he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week" this is how we know we are in the 70th week. We will know we are in the middle of the week when "he" sets up the abomination of desolation on the wings of the temple. I am affraid we are in the 70th week at this time in history.
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Postby joshua1:9 on Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:15 pm

I have wondered too about the rise of Russia. It seems that they are everywhere all over the globe. They are in a very powerful position now .Selling Gas, Oil, & Weapons High tech machinery . From Mexico to Colombia to Argentina Brazil the Middle east Africa & China. & giving aid to all who hate the US.

They are politically Stronger than the Soviet Union was because of the now negative perception of the US on the world stage. By 2015 they will have one of the most modern military machines in the world.Maybe stronger that The US if ours is broken by then. Which is quite possible with the way things are going.

Russia being totaly rebuilt. If Russia is the Beast it would certainly fall into line with the verse that says that the Beast will recover from a mortal head wound.The world will marvel at this & follow after the beast. We could see a reemergence of a form of Communisim/ socialism with Russia leading the world.

Oh yeah. On Wikpedia.com it says that the (SCO) was started by 10 nations. Or 10 kings. This could fall into line with the Russian leader telling the other Kings to give him command of they're armies.

This (SCO) is the largest most powerful military alliance ever founded in the history of the world. It conatins two of the militarys of the most populus nations in the world. Russia, India & China.As well as a host of nations that hate the US. Like Iran Pakistan & many other US hating Isreal Hating muslim nations.

I think we should continue to watch this develop. I Believe that this final chapter in history will play out a bit like a mystery movie. Revelation certainly paints this picture to me.
Putin is also a man who understands dark sentences. He is also a short man. Or little horn stouter than his fellows. Like Daniel says.

It is all speculation .I do admit.

I do take what Herb says very seriously. I however I think there will be some suprises in store.We just need to pay attention & keep your eye on the ball.
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Postby hirutbuddy on Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:35 pm

The EU is already beginning to devour the whole world. Javier said the world is becoming a system of continents with the African union, Eu, ect. We must not forget, the AC will and is conquering by peace he will destroy many. "he shall come up with a small people" "he is the 11th king" the WEU is the military wing of the EU, Spain was the 11th to join this military wing. Javier controls this military wing-"he shall honor a god of fortresses" To many pieces that fit together perfectly according to the Word of God to discount that the EU is the beast that will devour the whole world.
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Postby bok on Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:37 pm

A lot of our collective posts lately can be boiled down to the following:

The prophesies are being actively fulfilled and we're now on God's timetable. Knowing that; what do we intend to do about it?


Many of us are searching for ways to evangelize and to reach out to the un-saved and even the unbelieving Christians. Here are some thoughts

Jesus gives us the only model that we'll need (there may be others, but if it worked for the Son of God... well). He speaks the truth is love, but he does it by deconstructing all that we think we know about being happy, content, comfortable and well. He tears down our own misconceptions... that's what we need to lovingly do for our deceived friends.

In Mark 10, Jesus talks to a rich young man who wants to know how to enter the Kingdom of God:

As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: You shall not murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; You shall not defraud; Honor your father and mother." He said to him, "Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth." Jesus looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." They were greatly astounded and said to one another, "Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "For mortals it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible." Mark (10:17-27)


Jesus convicts the young man with a loving look, with both of them knowing full well that the man has never completely kept the commandments. He then turns the Jewish worldview upside-down. At the time, it was believed that the virtuous were rewarded by God with wealth (sound like any prosperity doctine you've heard lately), and that the poor were frowned on by God. Jesus shatters that worldview completely.

We have to break our friends out of their comfort zones... out of their misconceptions and distorted worldviews in the same way Jesus did. Convict them with the Word. Ask them if they're perfect enough to get into heaven, or if they're just counting on God being corrupt enough to let them in.

In Mark 4:21-23, Jesus says: "Do you bring in a lamp to put it under a bowl or a bed? Instead, don't you put it on its stand? For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

If you believe Jesus, the Word itself is suficient... but God will fill in the defects in your personal style and lacking charisma with the Holy Spirit if you ask Him in faith to cover your conversations. :wink:

Remember that the enemy hates it when you use the Word and the father -of-lies hates it when you speak the Truth of the Gospel.

Don't try to convince your friends how great their life is going to be with Jesus. Look at yours... is it the perfect life every non-believer would want? Just tell them the truth about God's justice and mercy, and the truth that everything He told us would happen is happening before our eyes.

I highly recommend the Way of the Master ministries as an intro to personal evangelism.

Please take 52 minutes of the time between now and the end of your time on this earth to watch this video.
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Postby Seth on Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:39 pm

I've also found lots of people, churches, etc so far removed from the truth concerning the end times....Here's what I've been sharing with people and we all want to be blessed and happy, right???

REVELATION 1:3

"BLESSED is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and BLESSED are those who HEAR it and TAKE TO HEART what is written in it, because the time is near."

:bounce:
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Postby Morning glory on Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:41 pm

:a3:
That's perfect jblair....I'll be using that too!
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Postby davis5454 on Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:16 pm

Jereome -

You assume that the breaking of the 1st seal starts at the 1st day of the 70th week.

If our suspicions are correct, and they are just suspicions, then we are only 2 months into the 70th week.

People assume the two start at the same time (1st seal and 70th week).
But if memory serves me correct, there is no definitive scripture that says they both kick off on the same day. (only speculation)

We admit ours is speculation based on world events and the scriptures.
We are just trying to keep open minds and align the two while "watching" and "being alert" like Jesus commanded.

If we are right - we will have seen it coming.
If we are wrong, we will be willing to admit it.

What happens if you are wrong?
I hope pride won't get in the way.

(show me any two scriptures in the bible that says the tribulation is 7 years long....or any two scriptures that say the start of the 70th week is the start of the seal judjments)

(Just make sure the scriptures explicitly state the facts and that they aren't assumed or having theory read into them.)

Don't get me wrong - I have been 7 year pre-trib all my life while I read what others were teaching...but i've been studying alot lately...and when you compare scripture to scripture, and don't read into it...but out of it...it looks alot more like we will be here for at least the first part of the 7 years. It also looks like the start of the 70th week and the start of the Tribulation don't have to line up to fit the scriptures. That's something man just assumes by reading their ideas into the scriptures.

I do admit however, I have alot more studying to do before I can put it down conclusievely in written form for others to share.

Unfortunately, I fear i'm running out of time.

With Love,
BD

:blahblah: (I know - quit talking)
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Input

Postby brett on Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:06 pm

Its sobering, its even troubling (though Jesus says not to let it worry us). It does indeed look like we've already entered into the 70th week. Real ID by 2010, just about every major change scheduled for 2010. False peace looming in the middle east, with Israel bending over backwards to have peace.

Everything seems to be on a hidden agenda that most of the worlds leadership already knows about. Its all so coordinated now, almost seems like this planet already has a one world government. Someone (one individula) is already pulling the strings - because the amount of synchronisation and coordination (order) in whats happening is amazing. Especially this 2010 thing. It seems everything globally is scheduled for 2010. Who is setting this agenda? - its not some fluke - all nations worldwide are already following direction from some primary source of leadship. It seems the Anti-Christ though not yet clearly visible (or has not yet publicly revealed himself to the world) is none the less already in control of the world.

The only 1 thing that I don't see is the placement of the 2 witnesses in all of this?
KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Postby MacD23 on Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:55 pm

I believe my wife is typical of the comfortable Christian. While it is true that many Christians are truly 100% oblivious to all that is going on in relation to end times prophecy, even those who are told about it, still think your smoking something you shouldn't be.

I've even had people who are interested in End TImes, who I have referenced this site too, and months later, they ask me for an update on how things are going prophecy wise, and I tell them, have you been reading this site, and they say no. Granted, the said the main page of this site is a mad house, and I have to agree with them 100%. "Herb - They make free blog software called Word Press (or Joomla) for sites just like yours".

But, anyhow... I'm disliked around here on the mod side of the fence... so I know that will be taken with a grain of salt.

Back on topic...

Christians, especially in the USA, are terribly comfortable... are focused on the now... and could give a rats (you know what) about Bible prophecy - ESPECIALLY anything that may look at current vents from a different perspective than the main-stream Rapture Ready "What Me Worry?" view of the world.

I agree with Herb 100%... I light of any information to the contrary, I do believe we could be in the 70th week. That said... I don't feel comfortable putting up a front page New York Times story to broadcast this information, nor do I want to run the talk radio circuit over this line of thinking.

Which... is a strong showing that indeed... while evidence points to it... it doesn't feel "solid".

This could be why the Jews rejected Jesus on the first visit... every prophecy showed that he was the one... but solely based upon trying to harmonize popular theory, vs fact-prophecy match... I probably would have said the same thing about Jesus if I was living in the time.

Which is horribly sad thing to say.... good thing I was not alive back then. That said... and even knowing that... I'd rather be correct, than wrong... and how that plays into my Christian walk is up for debate.
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Postby bugtussle on Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:25 am

Hope I don't sound stupid ...

I have a question, anybody ... why is it the year 5767 by the Jewish calendar? Is their calendar messed up somehow? Seriously, it's just a nagging question i have in regards to end time events.

I see these things happening and kind of wonder about the calendar thingy ...
For the Lord is good and His love endures forever. His mercy will never fail. Amen.
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Postby stevesherri on Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:41 am

I'd imagine that means its 5,767 years after Adam and Eve were born .... made.
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Postby WhiteH2OWoman on Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:58 am

Jerome, you've contradicted yourself. On the one hand, you said:

jereome wrote:
Not true, you will know when the time period for the last week has started when the 7 seals are opened.


Then you say:


First off nobody can prove that the Antichrist has stepped on the scene,


If the 1st seal IS the rise and appearance of the Antichrist, then you've said that we will KNOW when that seal is opened, yet you say nobody can prove the AC has stepped on the scene. Which is it, brother?

Bugtussle--from everything I've read, the Jewish calendar "lost" 240 years that have not been added to it, so actually we're in year 6,007...running on fumes and living on borrowed time.

Think of that...6,000 years....6 of the Lord's days...and 7 extra, bountiful gracious years for us to come to Him.
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Postby DeLila on Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:58 am

Who is the antichrist?
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Postby nonymouse on Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:57 am

Imho, Herb's main webpage allows easy overview (and one click access) to a plethora of endtime information.

2 cents.

Blessings,
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Postby Final Trumpet on Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:13 am

bugtussle wrote:Hope I don't sound stupid ...

I have a question, anybody ... why is it the year 5767 by the Jewish calendar? Is their calendar messed up somehow? Seriously, it's just a nagging question i have in regards to end time events.

I see these things happening and kind of wonder about the calendar thingy ...


The Jews discount 240 years during the captivities they had from the total of Daniels 70 week prophecy. This helps them to deny that Jesus was their messiah because the time does not work out. However, you add those 240 years in correctly and it gives the exact time that Messiah came and also makes the year actually 6007.
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand
Joel 2:1


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Postby Wickus on Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:42 am

Found this article about the missing 240 Jewish years. It was written in 1999 with the millennium fever:

On its face, this would not seem to be so evident as the year from Creation 5760 according to Seder Olam Rabbah coincides with 1999-2000. That would make it appear that mankind has another 240 years to make a mess of things and this generation shouldn´t worry too much unless some cyber-genetic freeze technology makes it possible to go to sleep now and wake up 240 years in the future. And the way the world is headed, who would want to do that?

But wait a second, it appears that someone forgot to wind that 6000-year clock a few times and it may be a few seconds off, in fact, as much as 7,568,864,000 seconds (or about 240 years) according to the Encyclopedia Judaica and other authoritative writings. Interesting that this figure
"240" keeps cropping up!

In an article headed SEDER OLAM, Encyclopedia Judaica records:

“Yose b. Halafta, the presumed author of Seder Olam Rabbah, probably had access to old traditions that also underlay the chronological computations of the Jewish Hellenistic chronographer Demetrius (third century B.C.E.). The most significant confusion in Yose´s calculation is the compression of the Persian period, from the rebuilding of the Temple by Zerubbabel in 516 B.C.E. to the conquest of Persia by Alexander (331 B.C.E.) to no more than 34 years.”

Students of ancient history know that the Persian period actually spanned 185 years from its start in 516 B.C.E. to the conquest by Alexander. If Seder Olam Rabbah reckoned the Persian period as only 34 years, then the clock is off 151 years for this interval alone.

Also, according to George Foot Moore´s, “Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era,” Volume I, page 6, Seder Olam Rabbah allotted the period of the Medes and Persians together only 52 years. Again ancient history records that Cyaxares I, founded the Median Empire in 625 B.C.E. The Medes ruled 109 years before the start of the Persian empire in 516 B.C.E.

The compression of 109 years that the Median Empire reigned to just 18 years (52 years of Mede and Persian rule minus 34 years of only Persian rule), requires another 91 year adjustment to the 6000-year calendar.

The two adjustments taken together (151 years and 91 years) add 242
years to the Hebrew calendar, making 2000 the year 5760 plus 242 or
6,002!!

However, there is also a mistake in our favor (assuming we want to prolong the world-changing events of the 7th millennium) found in the reckoning of the years from Creation.

It seems that the Seder Olam Rabbah records the destruction of the Second Temple as occurring in the year 3828 from Creation. That translates to 68 C.E. rather than the 70 C.E. which history records. That would make the events of the year 3828 from Creation (or 4070 when adjusted for the period of the Medes and Persians) to have occurred two years later than Seder Olam Rabbah reckons them. . If they occurred later, (or the year 4070 coincides with the year 70 C.E.), then the calendar today should be adjusted two years back to -- you guessed it, 6000! This means we are NOW in the 6000th year since Creation, and the world officially becomes 6000 years old on the next Rosh Hashanah. That date is September 30, 1999.

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/misc_studies/ms067.htm
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Postby bugtussle on Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:58 pm

:wow: Thanks for all of the good info posted on the Jewish calendar thing. I was next going to ask why was there a gap, but the info, even though a little difficult for me to follow, is pretty explanatory. (It's only difficult to follow at this moment because I am struggling after eating a slice of birthday cake and mo-shu pork. sugar and sugar!)

So we really are living on fumes! :a2:
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Postby Believer on Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:48 pm

davis5454 wrote:Jereome -

You assume that the breaking of the 1st seal starts at the 1st day of the 70th week.

If our suspicions are correct, and they are just suspicions, then we are only 2 months into the 70th week.

People assume the two start at the same time (1st seal and 70th week).
But if memory serves me correct, there is no definitive scripture that says they both kick off on the same day. (only speculation)

We admit ours is speculation based on world events and the scriptures.
We are just trying to keep open minds and align the two while "watching" and "being alert" like Jesus commanded.

If we are right - we will have seen it coming.
If we are wrong, we will be willing to admit it.

What happens if you are wrong?
I hope pride won't get in the way.

(show me any two scriptures in the bible that says the tribulation is 7 years long....or any two scriptures that say the start of the 70th week is the start of the seal judjments)

(Just make sure the scriptures explicitly state the facts and that they aren't assumed or having theory read into them.)

Don't get me wrong - I have been 7 year pre-trib all my life while I read what others were teaching...but i've been studying alot lately...and when you compare scripture to scripture, and don't read into it...but out of it...it looks alot more like we will be here for at least the first part of the 7 years. It also looks like the start of the 70th week and the start of the Tribulation don't have to line up to fit the scriptures. That's something man just assumes by reading their ideas into the scriptures.

I do admit however, I have alot more studying to do before I can put it down conclusievely in written form for others to share.

Unfortunately, I fear i'm running out of time.

With Love,
BD

:blahblah: (I know - quit talking)

No, don't stop talking! :grin: I am trying to figure out how we "know" the tribulation is 7 years. I just haven't been able to do it. What I've seen so far from scripture is that:
AC has authority for 3 1/2 years (Dan. 7:25; Dan. 12:7; and Rev. 13:5)
"great" tribulation = 3 1/2 years (Dan. 12:7 & Matt. 24:21 taken together)

If we don't have Dan. 9:27, how do we even know that there is a 70th week set aside for "Daniel's people" in the future? Does this 70th week hinge entirely on Dan. 9:27?

Maybe I should start another thread? :wink:
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Postby davis5454 on Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:10 pm

That's a mighty large can of worms to open here....

Bottom line...it all goes back to what a good friend of mine says....

"there is definition....and then there is interpretation"

This subject is all over the map in terms of interpretation....and that's why we have so many views of when things are going to happen and in what order.

The other aspect of that....definition....is also somewhat grey.
Unfortunately, people assign the same words and phrases to different meanings. This is the start of many unneeded arguments.

One example is "pre-trib" or "tribulation" ...

People with different views occasionally define the words in different ways and then argue about points that they are actually closer on than they can actually realize. Other times they agree on certian phrases and then don't realize they are actually saying different things.

We have to be very careful about what we read into or out of the bible and how we frame our discussions.

I know that's not what you were looking for...but i've sent you a PM where we can discuss things a little further without turning the thread into a debate area.

BD

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Postby Sword of Geddon on Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:14 pm

Anyone think that Cameron's documentary will be the falling away predicted by Jesus before his second coming?

I can see the AC rising after that, Solana or the Muslim messiah(more likely in my mind) The muslims will say, hey look, your book is flawed, ours is the final version, come to islam!
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Postby davis5454 on Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:56 pm

Sword of Geddon wrote:Anyone think that Cameron's documentary will be the falling away predicted by Jesus before his second coming?

I can see the AC rising after that, Solana or the Muslim messiah(more likely in my mind) The muslims will say, hey look, your book is flawed, ours is the final version, come to islam!


Possible, but I think there are too many flaws and too many people already starting to tell Cameron how off the wall he is.

I think this is only one small hit in many to come...
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Postby BeTheMoon on Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:09 pm

davis5454 wrote:I think this is only one small hit in many to come...


Me too.
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Postby GotJesus on Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:14 pm

It is interesting to note as of Late it seems I am constantly being bombarded with messages that it is time to "WAKE UP" and Become much more serious about our walk with the Lord.

Even thou my own Pastors are not talking specifically about "end Times"...there is a sense that it is VERY important to strengthen our church and train up leaders "NOW"

God Can and will use people and churches in different ways.

Many people do not want to accept the message as we may present it, but they are ready to hear what we have to say.

Today it was interesting to hear A visiting pastor explain that it is GOD that will bring someone to Christ...there may be 10 steps that God has planned to soften the heart and mind of that person, so what step do we play?

Are we to take someone who is not even a believer and claim the end of the world is near?

Now I am not saying we can not be bold or truthful about our beliefs, cus we need to be VERY BOLD now...That is the message that is coming from all directions.

It is time to Make Our Stand..

But we make our stand with the weapons Jesus gave us... The best weapon and really the only one we need is the word.

Love People no matter what ...win them with LOVE...

This pastor also say, just love people, eventually they will ask "why are you so kind and loving?"

Cus that is the message my Lord Jesus has given me to bring to you.

:armor:

Love NEVER Fails

We may see very clearly what is happening, but the ones who are lost do not have a clue... Love them, talk to them, listen to them, help them today!

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Postby jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:14 pm

hirutbuddy wrote:You are speculating Jerome. No where does it say the opening of the seals results in ww3. What we are told is that "he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week" this is how we know we are in the 70th week. We will know we are in the middle of the week when "he" sets up the abomination of desolation on the wings of the temple. I am affraid we are in the 70th week at this time in history.


Actually you are the one speculating about the 70th week.

As I said, have you seen one seal being opened just yet?

The answer is no, so no we arent in the 70th week.
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Postby jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:20 pm

hirutbuddy wrote:You are speculating Jerome. No where does it say the opening of the seals results in ww3. What we are told is that "he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week" this is how we know we are in the 70th week. We will know we are in the middle of the week when "he" sets up the abomination of desolation on the wings of the temple. I am affraid we are in the 70th week at this time in history.


REALLY?

Last time I checked Jesus referred to the signs of the times as labor pains.

You know contractions, they start out small and spaced out far apart but get closer together and stronger as the woman gets closer to birth.

So then if the signs are like contractions then that means that the wars are going to get closer in frequency and stronger as we get closer to the Lord's coming.

So if thats the case then if war and its effects will claim 1/4 of the worlds population and if its like a contraction then it will be bigger than the last big war which was world war2. So yes the red horseman will be world war 3.

Nope no speculation there just the ability to reason on God's word.
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Postby hirutbuddy on Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:32 pm

Jerome, the Word of God does not support what you are speculating. How do you know that the first seal will be opened at the beginning of the 70th week? The Bible does not say that. Yes, there will be wars and desolations till the end,but it does not say a particular war is ww3. You are still speculating. Stick with the facts-the Word of God. :wink:
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Postby jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:52 pm

hirutbuddy wrote:The EU is already beginning to devour the whole world. Javier said the world is becoming a system of continents with the African union, Eu, ect. We must not forget, the AC will and is conquering by peace he will destroy many. "he shall come up with a small people" "he is the 11th king" the WEU is the military wing of the EU, Spain was the 11th to join this military wing. Javier controls this military wing-"he shall honor a god of fortresses" To many pieces that fit together perfectly according to the Word of God to discount that the EU is the beast that will devour the whole world.


Problem is that many of the prophecies that are are naming here have already been fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes and do not refer to the Antichrist.

Second the 10 Nation confederacy will not be the WEU but it will be a GLOBAL ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT devided under 10 economic regions, all one has to do to see this is to look at the current trends on where the illuminist are taking us.

For some information on the possible religion of the Antichrist, you can look at two sources in the Bible, one source is the meaning of the god of forces and the other source I believe is one of the books of John.

The god of forces = a god in antiquity known as Baalhazor or Baal.

Beelzebub is another title for Baal and Jesus referred to Beelzebub as Satan.

So in a round about way the Antichrist will worship Lucifer.

To further get an idea of the religion of the Antichrist you can goto John's letters where he talks about the spirit of the Antichrist, and this line here names the religion he will come through.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


John wrote this letter to counter the false gnostic beliefs that were going on during his time.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm
Christ: The role of the redeemer in Gnostic belief is heavily debated at this time. Gnostics seem to have looked upon Christ as a revealer or liberator, rather than a savior or judge. His purpose was to spread knowledge which would free individuals from the Demiurge's control and allow them to return to their spiritual home with the Supreme God at death. Some Gnostic groups promoted Docetism, the belief that Christ was pure spirit and only had a phantom body; Jesus just appeared to be human to his followers. They reasoned that a true emissary from the Supreme God could not have been overcome by the evil of the world, and to have suffered and died. These beliefs were considered heresy by many non-Gnostic Christians. Some Gnostics believed that Christ's resurrection occurred at or before Jesus' death on the cross. They defined his resurrection as occurring when his spirit was liberated from his body. Many Gnostics believed that Jesus had both male and female disciples.


To gnostic's Demiurge is the creator God or Jehovah and Jehovah is the evil God, while the serpent is honored because he gave knowledge to mankind.

Mason's also share this religious belief and some other religions that came from the whore of babylon, the only difference is that the names are different.[/url]
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Postby davis5454 on Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:34 pm

jereome wrote:Problem is that many of the prophecies that are are naming here have already been fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes and do not refer to the Antichrist.


Jerome - I hope you don't mean the AOD here....

If you do, I can prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn't the AOD spoken of by Daniel by using only one scripture. Just please tell me you don't think Antiochus Epiphanes was the AOD!

Beyond that fact...
Does scripture support the 1st seal being the antichrist? Or is that an assumption? If we use the bible to interpret the bible, can we find the AC listed as wearing white, riding a horse, and conquering anywhere else? How about Jesus - is there anywhere else in the bible he wears white, comes riding on a horse, conquering? These would have two very different meanings. (show me the scriptures)

Who is to say that the seals didn't start at Jesus resurrection and take 2000 years to unfold culminating with the next set of judgements (from the 7th seal on) during the last 42 months. (show me the scriptures)

Or conversely, that the seals and other judgements don't all happen within the 42 month period. (show me the scriptures)

These would appear in very different fashions.

All we are saying is don't ASSUME based on what someone else has taught - use the scriptures and try not to read paradigms into them.


In the mean time....i'll check back tommorow on your answer about the AOD and Antiochus Epiphanes. If you believe he was the AOD, I will give you the scripture you need to prove he's not.
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Postby jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:38 pm

davis5454 wrote:Jereome -

You assume that the breaking of the 1st seal starts at the 1st day of the 70th week.

If our suspicions are correct, and they are just suspicions, then we are only 2 months into the 70th week.

People assume the two start at the same time (1st seal and 70th week).
But if memory serves me correct, there is no definitive scripture that says they both kick off on the same day. (only speculation)


Im not die hard fan on the belief that the first seal starts the 70th week, in fact Im pretty open in believing that the tribulation will start anywhere from the first to the 7th seal and that believers will be out of here by the trumpet judgements.

But Im not really die hard on that since nothing is fully revealed yet, except for the fact that the Antichrist will confirm a covenant with many for one week and that the Temple sacrifices will probably start with this covenant since he stops the sacrifices 3 1/2 years later. <----- Something that some people that believe we are in the 70th week conveniantly forget.

Anyway here are some verses.

Rev 6:
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Joel 2:
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Maybe Im speculating here but it would seem that the blood red moon is the sign that the day of the Lord has come. Also if you look at Joel the part where he pours out his spirit on Israel's sons and daughters would match up nicely with God sealing the 144,000 Jews.

We admit ours is speculation based on world events and the scriptures.
We are just trying to keep open minds and align the two while "watching" and "being alert" like Jesus commanded.

If we are right - we will have seen it coming.
If we are wrong, we will be willing to admit it.

What happens if you are wrong?
I hope pride won't get in the way.


Brother we are all watching here, just as Jesus commanded so no difference there but why do you assume that someone might be proud because they interpret scripture differently than you?

If im wrong, Ill probably get on my knees and beg for God's provision during this time period just like you and probably everyone that calls upon the name of the Lord.

(show me any two scriptures in the bible that says the tribulation is 7 years long....or any two scriptures that say the start of the 70th week is the start of the seal judjments)

(Just make sure the scriptures explicitly state the facts and that they aren't assumed or having theory read into them.)


Ok thats not that hard considering that the Bible uses other terms for the tribulation, such as day of the Lord, 70th week, Jacob's trouble.

Jeremiah 30:
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:


To understand more about Jacob's trouble you have to look at Jacob's life, to find a time where Jacob had trouble for seven years.

That time was when during his wedding night when he was expecting to be given Rachel (Israel) as his wife, but instead took Leah (Church) into his bridal chambers (heaven) and had to labor another 7 years (tribulation) for Rachel.

Don't get me wrong - I have been 7 year pre-trib all my life while I read what others were teaching...but i've been studying alot lately...and when you compare scripture to scripture, and don't read into it...but out of it...it looks alot more like we will be here for at least the first part of the 7 years. It also looks like the start of the 70th week and the start of the Tribulation don't have to line up to fit the scriptures. That's something man just assumes by reading their ideas into the scriptures.

I do admit however, I have alot more studying to do before I can put it down conclusievely in written form for others to share.

Unfortunately, I fear i'm running out of time.

With Love,
BD

:blahblah: (I know - quit talking)


Actually I dont read anything into scripture and tend to get my knowledge of the Bible from reading it myself instead of listening to what Herb says or Hal Lindsay or anyone else to form my opinion.

My opinion is that the believers will be taken up before God pours out his wrath on the Earth, because God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

You can see many examples of this in the old testament such as the flood and Sodom / Gamorrah, Jericho etc...
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Postby davis5454 on Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:40 pm

jereome wrote:
Second the 10 Nation confederacy will not be the WEU but it will be a GLOBAL ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT devided under 10 economic regions, all one has to do to see this is to look at the current trends on where the illuminist are taking us.


PS - I won't even get started on the whole one world government thing tonight. Mabye it is...mabye it isn't...

Another friend of my put it best when he said about studying the end times...

"Oh yeah...which version of the rapture is correct? I've studied it heavily and I can prove it both ways!" (referring to pre vs post)

In other words, WORDS can be twisted to prove almost any point.

:dizzy:
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Postby jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:54 pm

WhiteH2OWoman wrote:Jerome, you've contradicted yourself. On the one hand, you said:

jereome wrote:
Not true, you will know when the time period for the last week has started when the 7 seals are opened.


Then you say:


First off nobody can prove that the Antichrist has stepped on the scene,


If the 1st seal IS the rise and appearance of the Antichrist, then you've said that we will KNOW when that seal is opened, yet you say nobody can prove the AC has stepped on the scene. Which is it, brother?

Bugtussle--from everything I've read, the Jewish calendar "lost" 240 years that have not been added to it, so actually we're in year 6,007...running on fumes and living on borrowed time.

Think of that...6,000 years....6 of the Lord's days...and 7 extra, bountiful gracious years for us to come to Him.


First off your speculating and your speculation is causing you to believe that I have contradicted myself.

Nowhere did I state that the first seal kicks off the tribulation, but that I believe that a combination of the seven seals, specifically the sixth seal is the sign to the world that the day of the Lord has come.

Also did I once say that the white horseman IS THE ANTICHRIST?

No I didnt, in fact didnt I say that it could be the Antichrist but I believe it could be Gog / Magog also?


As for the Jewish calender losing 240 years, I have read from scholars that the Jews intentionally lost some years in order to not have Daniels 70 weeks land on Jesus but some false christ named Barchova (probably mispelled) .
Last edited by jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby davis5454 on Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:07 pm

jereome wrote:Im not die hard fan on the belief that the first seal starts the 70th week, in fact Im pretty open in believing that the tribulation will start anywhere from the first to the 7th seal and that believers will be out of here by the trumpet judgements.

But Im not really die hard on that since nothing is fully revealed yet, except for the fact that the Antichrist will confirm a covenant with many for one week and that the Temple sacrifices will probably start with this covenant since he stops the sacrifices 3 1/2 years later. <----- Something that some people that believe we are in the 70th week conveniantly forget.


You said "probably"...that was my point. There's deals going on that could get the sacrifices started in time to meet the wierd 2010 thing that's happening.

That's all we are saying. If it doesn't. We'll know this wasn't the time being spoken of. Remember, they really don't need a whole temple...only a tabernacle. (although they have made preparations ahead of time to pre-fab the temple and erect it on short notice if needed.) We'll see where this peace stuff leads to.

Brother we are all watching here, just as Jesus commanded so no difference there but why do you assume that someone might be proud because they interpret scripture differently than you?


I didn't mean to sound like I assumed you would be proud due to interpretational differences. I only "hope" that you won't. I primarily said that because you sound a little confrontational. I worry that anyone who is so strong in their feelings won't let it affect their judgement adversely.

By the way, I've been wrong about many things in my life and won't be surprised if this isn't the real deal. Perhaps a little disappointed since the world is going topsy turvey and we are still waiting....but not surprised.

(show me any two scriptures in the bible that says the tribulation is 7 years long....or any two scriptures that say the start of the 70th week is the start of the seal judjments)

(Just make sure the scriptures explicitly state the facts and that they aren't assumed or having theory read into them.)


Ok thats not that hard considering that the Bible uses other terms for the tribulation, such as day of the Lord, 70th week, Jacob's trouble.

Jeremiah 30:
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:


To understand more about Jacob's trouble you have to look at Jacob's life, to find a time where Jacob had trouble for seven years.

That time was when during his wedding night when he was expecting to be given Rachel (Israel) as his wife, but instead took Leah (Church) into his bridal chambers (heaven) and had to labor another 7 years (tribulation) for Rachel.



See...you totally confused me here...
While I understand about your quote, there was only assuming that they would match up and nothing saying that one absolutely represented the other. When I read revelation, I only find 3 1/2 year periods listed.

Even Daniel 12:7 only states 3 1/2 years.
So who is to say the tribulation isn't only 3 1/2 years but the convenant is seven. Thus the mid-point kicking off the tribulation.

Actually I dont read anything into scripture and tend to get my knowledge of the Bible from reading it myself instead of listening to what Herb says or Hal Lindsay or anyone else to form my opinion.

My opinion is that the believers will be taken up before God pours out his wrath on the Earth, because God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

You can see many examples of this in the old testament such as the flood and Sodom / Gamorrah, Jericho etc...



I agree that believers will most likely be taken up before God pours out his wrath. I also like your references to when and examples of Sodom, etc...

However, with love I tell you that I think you are making some assumptions and/or reading other things into scripture.

BD

:hugs2:
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Postby davis5454 on Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:38 pm

Jerome -

You contradicted yourself again....
In your original post, you said that

Not true, you will know when the time period for the last week has started when the 7 seals are opened.

and

Nor have we seen Israel turn to God (seventh seal), the two witnesses, the temple being rebuilt or any other sign, that would indicate that we aren in the 70th week.


Then in one of your last post you said...

Im not die hard fan on the belief that the first seal starts the 70th week


OK - first of all - based on the original post - The death of the two witnesses is around the time of the 2nd woe. Then after the 3rd woe (my assumption here) comes Rev 11:15 "The kingdom of the world has become {the kingdom} of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

That would place the 2 witnesses in the last 3 1/2 years according to one interpretation of the events.

So how can you say that you aren't a die hard that the first seal starts the 70th week....then also say that we aren't in the 70th week since we haven't seen a sign during the first 60 days?

You also state that this is all based on Solana authoring Rec.666...
It's not the Rec.666 that's the nail everything is hanging on....it's the whole deal...the treaties, the intentions, the giving of land to be in the EU, the working of the AOC, and about 100 other things happening all at the same time and not contradicting scripture. That's why we are watching closely.

Herb will tell you that it's only his belief or best guess....not that he's dogmatic about it.
davis5454
 
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Postby jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:55 pm

davis5454 wrote:Jerome - I hope you don't mean the AOD here....

If you do, I can prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn't the AOD spoken of by Daniel by using only one scripture. Just please tell me you don't think Antiochus Epiphanes was the AOD!


To summ it up best Antiochus Epiphanes wasnt the AOD but was an AOD.

Its rather simple, Jesus was telling his disciples about a future event with a past event as reference.

Mathew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Beyond that fact...
Does scripture support the 1st seal being the antichrist? Or is that an assumption?


Yes its an assumption, but one you can easily draw if you believe that Christ's message to his disciples about the end times is an outline for what happens in Revelation.

If we use the bible to interpret the bible, can we find the AC listed as wearing white, riding a horse, and conquering anywhere else?


Nope but you can find scripture that points to Satan and his minions transforming themselves as Angels of Light in order to decieve, and Christ said, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."


2 Corrinthians 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


How about Jesus - is there anywhere else in the bible he wears white, comes riding on a horse, conquering? These would have two very different meanings. (show me the scriptures)

Yes you can but at an entirely different section of Revelation.

Revelation 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


:lol: the term "All your base are belong to us", comes to mind..

rofl...

Who is to say that the seals didn't start at Jesus resurrection and take 2000 years to unfold culminating with the next set of judgements (from the 7th seal on) during the last 42 months. (show me the scriptures)

Or conversely, that the seals and other judgements don't all happen within the 42 month period. (show me the scriptures)

These would appear in very different fashions.

All we are saying is don't ASSUME based on what someone else has taught - use the scriptures and try not to read paradigms into them.


Well forgive me these threads are causing me to research and reflect on scripture which is a good thing :grin: . Iron sharpening Iron.

But to answer your question you have to ask yourself which book is it that Jesus is opening?

To me the most logical one wouldnt be any of the ones mentioned by name in the Bible such as the Book of life, Lambs book of Life etc.. but it would be the book mentioned in the last chapter of Daniel.

Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Then if this is correct then the seals could not have possibly opened up at Jesus's death since this is something thats clearly reserved for the time of the end.

Also if the opening of the book is reserved for the time of the end, then we clearly arent in the time of the end because for one the book hasnt been opened yet, nor can anyone point to a single seal being opened since that would be required in order to open up the book.

Also from that Chapter I guess you could argue that the tribulation will only be a 3.5 year event but in order to do that you would have to throw out some other end time prophecies such as the 70th week of Daniel, and Jacob's trouble mentioned by Jeremiah.

In the mean time....i'll check back tommorow on your answer about the AOD and Antiochus Epiphanes. If you believe he was the AOD, I will give you the scripture you need to prove he's not.


Based upon scripture and history you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that Antiochus Epiphanes was an AOD and that from the time of the Persian empire to the Maccabees fulfilled Daniel 11:1-35 while 36 onward refer to the Antichrist.

A good reference for this would be the

Annals of the World by Bishop Usher.
History according to Flavius Josephus.
and of course some of the books of Maccabee.
jereome
 
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Postby jereome on Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:35 pm

davis5454 wrote:Jerome -

You contradicted yourself again....
In your original post, you said that

Not true, you will know when the time period for the last week has started when the 7 seals are opened.

and

Nor have we seen Israel turn to God (seventh seal), the two witnesses, the temple being rebuilt or any other sign, that would indicate that we aren in the 70th week.


Then in one of your last post you said...

Im not die hard fan on the belief that the first seal starts the 70th week


OK - first of all - based on the original post - The death of the two witnesses is around the time of the 2nd woe. Then after the 3rd woe (my assumption here) comes Rev 11:15 "The kingdom of the world has become {the kingdom} of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

That would place the 2 witnesses in the last 3 1/2 years according to one interpretation of the events.

So how can you say that you aren't a die hard that the first seal starts the 70th week....then also say that we aren't in the 70th week since we haven't seen a sign during the first 60 days?


Nope I didnt contradict myself you just havent understood what I have been saying.

I didnt say that the first seal was the start of the tribulation it was just something you assumed.

I said that the seals were the sign to the world that the tribulation has started.

Based upon this scripture:
Revelation 6:
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Big difference.

Now since not a single person here can point to a single seal being opened then no we arent in the 70th week.

You know before I decided to post these posts on this site, my perception of Revelation was that the Tribulation didnt start until around the sixth seal (I was never dogmatic about it mind you) but upon further study, Ill go so far as saying that the Tribulation doesnt start until after the 7 seals, a good time would probably after the 30 minutes of silence in Heaven.

Why simple the book has been sealed in Daniel and the book wont be opened again until Christ opens it up at the end of the age.

As for the two witnesses they come on the scene during the first half of the tribulation and are killed during or before the second woe.

The third woe is Satan being cast to the Earth, and interesting enough in chapter twelve it pretty much repeats what you said earlier.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


But as we know Christ hasnt claimed his Kingdom yet, since after the serpent is cast down he tries to persecute Israel but she is protected for 3 1/2 years and then he gives power to the Beast to continue 3 1/2 years.

The best way to interprete end times prophecy is that for the most part its sequential.

i.e. 7 seals ---> 7 trumpets ---> 7 vials ---> second coming ---> Millenial Kingdom etc...

You also state that this is all based on Solana authoring Rec.666...
It's not the Rec.666 that's the nail everything is hanging on....it's the whole deal...the treaties, the intentions, the giving of land to be in the EU, the working of the AOC, and about 100 other things happening all at the same time and not contradicting scripture. That's why we are watching closely.

Herb will tell you that it's only his belief or best guess....not that he's dogmatic about it.


Actually Solana is just one piece of the end time puzzle, in order to get the WHOLE picture you have to study what people on this site frown upon since it deals with studying conspiracy theories and actually spending time reading about what the Luciferians have said that they are going to do.

When you do that and study the Bible then it all makes sense.
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Postby Triton57 on Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:55 am

davis5454 wrote:Jereome -

You assume that the breaking of the 1st seal starts at the 1st day of the 70th week.

If our suspicions are correct, and they are just suspicions, then we are only 2 months into the 70th week.

People assume the two start at the same time (1st seal and 70th week).
But if memory serves me correct, there is no definitive scripture that says they both kick off on the same day. (only speculation)

We admit ours is speculation based on world events and the scriptures.
We are just trying to keep open minds and align the two while "watching" and "being alert" like Jesus commanded.

If we are right - we will have seen it coming.
If we are wrong, we will be willing to admit it.

What happens if you are wrong?
I hope pride won't get in the way.

(show me any two scriptures in the bible that says the tribulation is 7 years long....or any two scriptures that say the start of the 70th week is the start of the seal judjments)

(Just make sure the scriptures explicitly state the facts and that they aren't assumed or having theory read into them.)

Don't get me wrong - I have been 7 year pre-trib all my life while I read what others were teaching...but i've been studying alot lately...and when you compare scripture to scripture, and don't read into it...but out of it...it looks alot more like we will be here for at least the first part of the 7 years. It also looks like the start of the 70th week and the start of the Tribulation don't have to line up to fit the scriptures. That's something man just assumes by reading their ideas into the scriptures.

I do admit however, I have alot more studying to do before I can put it down conclusievely in written form for others to share.

Unfortunately, I fear i'm running out of time.

I agree with you Davis. I believe that there are two main starting points of end-time events marking the beginning of the very end. These would be the 70th week of Daniel, and the first seal.

The 70th week of Daniel marks the fulfillment of God's dealing with Israel as a nation as expressed to Daniel when he requested understanding of Israel's future. What I've discovered through the diligent research of others is that the judgments of Israel are connected from Ezekiel through to 1967. (Ezekiel's 430 days) Then, from June 7, 1967 to October 5, 2005 is exactly 14,000 days. Given the two previous scriptural foundations for a 14,000 day generational period of time, this stands out because God gave Israel the Temple Mount and that day, Israel lacked faith in God's provision and gave up control to Islam, who now makes their life a living hell because of it. Rosh Hashanah 2005 also came with signs in the heavens.
    Revelation 12:1-3
    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Then there is the first seal, where we see a rider go forth conquering and to conquer.
    Revelation 6:1,2
    And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Daniel 9:27
    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Daniel 8:25
    And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
I believe this conquering by peace may become fully manifest in the Alliance of Civilizations. While I believe Daniel 8:25 may be referring to Antiochus IV, he had the same spirit of antichrist. I believe he will utilize pride as a tool to control men. This means flatteries and conquering by peace. Right now, I think it may be that the crown has been given and the covenant (Euro-Med) has been confirmed (ENPI). The rider, appearing to conquer by peace and therefore bringing peace would be given his crown and authority. (Secretary-General) These 10 horns/kings give their power to him. (Recommendation 666)

I expect then that peace will develop in the Middle East brought about by the ENPI, which has clearly brought a shift in attitude to the negotiating table since it came to effect in January, 2007. After this peace happens, Russia, Turkey, Iran, and others will be wiped out by God upon their attempted attack. I believe at that point Israel will rebuild the temple. In order to not anger Islam and yet still get their temple, they will not build the outer court.
    Revelation 11:1,2
    1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
I believe the Holy of Holies is where the Dome of the Spirit/Dome of the Tablets is now. More on the Temple Mount here. From there, the two witnesses and the abomination of desolation would follow.

So I believe the 70th week of Daniel starts on God's timing. His timing was dependent upon the previous jugdments for Israel being carried out to the letter because God is just and that is the punishment He promised. Israel extended that one generation through unbelief and the Feast of Trumpets, the Jewish New Year marked the end of those judgments upon Israel for disobedience. As of October 5, 2005 the judgments ended. It seems that this would be the most logical place to begin a final 7-year period of God dealing with Israel according to His Word.

That leaves the first seal, which I believe starts independently of the 70th week of Daniel. It marks just what it says, the antichrist posing on a white horse conquering. I believe that conquering is by peace. In other words, he's a brilliant peacemaker that everyone flocks to and obeys. He's the one everyone will receive after rejecting Christ. I believe the first seal may have been marked by January 1, 2007. It's on man's clock, not God's prophetic clock, which is another reason I don't believe the ENPI is the beginning of the 70th week. It's 7-years is based on today's 365 day calendar. The first 69 weeks were 360-day years, so I would expect the final week to conform to that same standard. January 1, 2007 to December 31, 2013 is 2556 days, not 2520 days.

I believe Rosh Hashanah has God's fingerprints and since the 70th week is God's idea, then it would make sense to start it on the Jewish New Year, the very day Israel's previous judgments had been paid in full. This means that Daniel 9:27's confirmed covenant marks the antichrist's going forth to conquer by peace. It's part of the 70th week, but the antichrist's covenant is cut short and invalidated by Christ's return in glory.

Any thoughts?
Last edited by Triton57 on Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby Triton57 on Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:14 am

GotJesus wrote:It is interesting to note as of Late it seems I am constantly being bombarded with messages that it is time to "WAKE UP" and Become much more serious about our walk with the Lord.

Even thou my own Pastors are not talking specifically about "end Times"...there is a sense that it is VERY important to strengthen our church and train up leaders "NOW"

God Can and will use people and churches in different ways.

Many people do not want to accept the message as we may present it, but they are ready to hear what we have to say.

Today it was interesting to hear A visiting pastor explain that it is GOD that will bring someone to Christ...there may be 10 steps that God has planned to soften the heart and mind of that person, so what step do we play?

Are we to take someone who is not even a believer and claim the end of the world is near?

Now I am not saying we can not be bold or truthful about our beliefs, cus we need to be VERY BOLD now...That is the message that is coming from all directions.

It is time to Make Our Stand..

But we make our stand with the weapons Jesus gave us... The best weapon and really the only one we need is the word.

Love People no matter what ...win them with LOVE...

This pastor also say, just love people, eventually they will ask "why are you so kind and loving?"

Cus that is the message my Lord Jesus has given me to bring to you.

:armor:

Love NEVER Fails

We may see very clearly what is happening, but the ones who are lost do not have a clue... Love them, talk to them, listen to them, help them today!

Sam

Hey Sam, we just had a visiting minister as well. I liked his approach. He just asked people if there was anything he could pray for them about. He said it was dismissed by some, but for others it opened a door to converse with them about God.
Phillip
2 Timothy 4:1-4
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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