Remnant Theology

by **Lazarus43** on Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:09 am

Remnant Theology
A Different Perspective on the Church and Israel

by John Gay

Historically, there has been two main theories regarding the Church's relationship to Israel. In replacement theology, the Church replaces Israel such that Israel has no redemptive future. In separation theology (an aspect of dispensationalism), while God has a future for Israel, there is a distinction between Israel and the Church that is preserved throughout all time, with no overlap of the two.

Is it possible that both of these popular positions have been wrong? Is there a middle ground of truth?

Proper and Improper Distinctions

In discussing the Church and Israel, the first thing to realize is that the Bible rarely makes a parallel distinction between national Israel and the Church (possible exceptions being Matthew 23:39 and Romans 11:26). Biblically, Israel is a nation, not a spiritual entity. As a nation of people (like any other nation of people), it contains both saved and unsaved. When the Bible speaks of Israel as a spiritual entity (the saved of Israel), it is referring to remnant Israel (which forces us to ask, "Is there a distinction between remnant Israel and the Church?"--a question we will address shortly).

Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God--even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. (1 Corinthians 10:32-33; italics added)

This passage is often used to justify a parallel distinction between Israel and the Church, but that is not what the passage is doing or saying. The immediate context shows that "Jews" refers to unsaved Jews, "Greeks" to unsaved Greeks, and the "church of God" to the saved (whether Jew or Greek). Therefore, the passage is consistent with the rest of the Bible in that it makes a parallel distinction between (1) Jew and Gentile, and between (2) the saved and the unsaved. Also consistent with the rest of Scripture, it does not make a parallel distinction between national Israel and the Church--which would be a category error.

Why then do people want to replace national Israel with the Church or separate Israel and the Church? The problem is threefold. First, people usually equate "Church" with Gentiles, even though both Jews and Gentiles make up the Church (Ephesians 3:6). The second problem is that people often equate "Israel" with Jews. That, too, is against the Scriptures. Gentile believers become citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19). The third problem is that people usually do not bother to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel, even though the Bible clearly makes that distinction (Romans 9:6-8, 11:1-7).

The situation is not as black and white as people have made it. There are gray areas that need to be explored and understood. "Church" does not mean Gentiles only. "Israel" does not always mean Jews only. And there is a significant theological difference between national Israel and remnant Israel.

What is the Church?

The Church is the assembly of people, whether Jew or Gentile, who have been called out of the world to form the spiritual Body of Christ (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those in the Church come together by the Spirit and through the Messiah. They are said to be "in Christ" (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 1:13).

What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:23-24; italics added)

The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel.

Both spiritually called-out peoples form one called-out people known as the Church. These called-out ones are saved by faith in the pattern of their spiritual father, Abraham (Romans 4:11). Thus, while only some in the Church are physically Jewish, all in the Church are spiritually Jewish. They are circumcised of the heart (Romans 2:29), the offspring of Abraham (Romans 4:16) and citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19).

What is Israel?

Israel can mean several things. First, it often denotes national Israel--the nation whose citizens are physical descendants of Jacob/Israel. Second, it can mean those physical descendants of Jacob who have not responded to the call of God (Romans 9:31, 11:7). Third, it can mean those Jews (the remnant) who have trusted in the promises of God.

It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. (Romans 9:6-7; italics added)

Being a physical descendant of Abraham, while it does bring an advantage (Romans 3:1-2), does not mean one is automatically a spiritual descendant of Abraham (Romans 2:28-29; John 8:39; Matthew 3:9). "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." A person can be part of national Israel, and yet not be part of remnant Israel. There is an Israel within Israel, a subset of physical-and-spiritual Jewish people (remnant Israel) among the group of physically Jewish people (national Israel).

When Gentiles become spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith in Jesus Christ, they become part of this subset also, part of remnant Israel. That believing Gentiles are placed within remnant Israel is clearly shown by Paul's illustration of the olive tree.

If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! (Romans 11:16-24; italics added)

The Olive Tree

To understand this complex passage, it will be helpful to analyze its terms.

(1) Holy Firstfruits/Root. While some consider Abraham the holy firstfruits/root that makes the whole batch and the branches holy, it is more likely that Jesus holds this position. In Pauline theology and throughout God's Word, the Messiah is the only person who can make others holy (Isaiah 53:2-6; Romans 5:18-19, 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 5:26; Philippians 3:9; esp. Hebrews 2:11, 11:39-40).

Further evidence is found in Romans 9:3-4. "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel." Paul likens separation from Christ as being "cut off" from Him, language consistent with the olive tree metaphor and Christ as its root.

(2) Wild Olive Shoot. This is a reference to an individual Gentile. A shoot is a young, tender sprout, an undeveloped branch.

(3) Natural Branches. This is a reference to Jewish believers. A Jewish believer is a natural branch, whereas a Gentile believer is a wild olive shoot.

(4) Olive Tree. Non-believing Jews are not part of the olive tree. They have been broken off. Therefore, national Israel must not be in view as the olive tree. But the olive tree must represent some aspect of Israel, because, for Jewish believers, it is their own olive tree.

The olive tree represents remnant Israel. This idea is highly supported by the context of the passage. Previously, Paul has mentioned true Israel (9:6), the remnant of Israel (9:27, 11:5), the elect of Israel (11:7).

Remnant Israel = the Church

The olive tree represents remnant Israel, but does it also represent the Church? The olive tree is a group of Jews and Gentiles made holy by the Messiah. That is also an accurate description of the Church (Ephesians 3:6). With the olive tree metaphor, Paul was writing to Gentile believers (Romans 11:13), members of the Church. And yet, the context of the olive tree metaphor was not the Church per se. In Romans, Paul's first use of ekklesia comes in Chapter 16 (vv. 1, 5, 23), where it refers to local assemblies, not the entire body of believers. The context of the olive tree metaphor is remnant Israel (Romans 11:5, 7)--"their [Jewish people's] own olive tree" (11:24).

If Paul had confined his olive tree illustration to include Jewish people only, remnant Israel might have been something separate from the Church, or something placed within the Church. Since Gentile believers are grafted into the olive tree, however, it is clear that remnant Israel is not confined to physical Jews only, but rather, contains the same redeemed peoples who are members of the Church.

Paul's olive tree metaphor is similar to his human body metaphor (Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12ff). The fact that he uses the two metaphors so close to one another (Romans 11 and 12) shows he is speaking about the same group of people in both. In the body metaphor, the Messiah is the head that gives direction to the rest of the body. Similarly, in the olive tree metaphor, the tree gets its sustenance and origin from the Messiah. In both metaphors, the membership is both Jew and Gentile. For the one: Jewish and Gentile body parts; for the other: Jewish branches and Gentile shoots.

A third metaphor is the spiritual temple spoken of by both Paul and Peter (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-6). Here, the Messiah is the chief cornerstone and the redeemed peoples (Jew and Gentile) are living stones who form a spiritual building. All three metaphors--olive tree, human body, spiritual temple--speak of one and the same group of redeemed Jews and Gentiles. This group can be referred to as the Church, the Assembly, the Congregation, the Body of Messiah, the Body of Christ, God's household--which Gentile believers are no longer alien to (1 Timothy 3:15; Ephesians 2:19), or remnant Israel--which Gentile believers are grafted into (Romans 11:17).

The Church: New and Not New

The Church is new. In the New Covenant Scriptures, the first mention of the Church is found in Matthew 16:18, where Jesus spoke of building His Church. Thus, the Church is a new undertaking, specifically because it is the Messiah's congregation that He would build on the basis of His atoning death and resurrection. Like Moses who brought the ekklesia (the Israelites) out of Egypt physically, the Messiah would bring His ekklesia out of the world spiritually, to form a spiritual assembly that included both Jews and Gentiles.

The Church is also new regarding the New Covenant's promise of the indwelling Spirit (Ezekiel 36:24-26; Jeremiah 31:31-33). The mystery aspect of the Church was that non-Jews would also receive the Spirit and be placed within the same body (with believing Jews) through the Spirit (Acts 10:45, 15:8; Ephesians 2:19-3:6). This was a mystery because the New Covenant and the advent of the Spirit had been promised only for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31), not for Gentiles. Thus, it was hidden in the Old Testament, sparingly, such as in the covenant given to Abraham, whose seed (Messiah) would be a blessing to all nations.

But the Church is not new. The Church is not new because it is simply remnant Israel. Some people claim that Paul's olive tree is the Church, others claim it is Israel. Seeing it as remnant Israel solves the dilemma. The olive tree is remnant Israel and it is the Church, because the Church is remnant Israel. Further support for this comes from Peter's speech in Acts 3. While speaking to Jewish non-believers, he stated that Jesus was a fulfillment of Mosaic prophecy:

For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people." (Acts 3:22-23; italics added)

When a Jewish person believed in Jesus and was born of the Spirit, he became a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. However, if a Jewish person did not believe in Jesus, he would be "cut off" (the same language used in Paul's olive tree illustration) from among the Jewish people. This shows that not only Paul, but Peter also, saw the Church as being equivalent to remnant Israel.

The fact that the Church is remnant Israel is evidenced by the name of the eternal home of believers (the New Jerusalem), by the gates of that home (the names of the twelve tribes of Israel), by the pillars of that home (the twelve Israelite apostles of Jesus), and by the Person seated on the throne of that home (Jesus, the King of Israel, Himself an Israelite).

Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul--certainly a member of the Church--could say that since he was a believer in Jesus, he was part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers in Jesus have been grafted into remnant Israel (Romans 11:17). Because the Church is remnant Israel, both Paul and Peter could say that Jews who didn't accept Jesus would be cut off from Israel (Romans 11:17; Acts 3:23). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers are no longer "excluded from citizenship in Israel" and no longer "foreigners to the covenants of the promise" (Ephesians 2:12). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers "are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19).

These truths would make no sense if the Church were a totally new enterprise, completely separate from or replacing remnant Israel.

Conclusion

For a long time there has been an improper distinction between Israel and the Church. This error has been happened for two reasons: (1) People have rightly noticed the Bible's distinction between Jew and Gentile, but then they erred in thinking that Israel equals Jew and Church equals Gentile. Both Israel and the Church contain both Jews and Gentiles, and the distinction between Jew and Gentile is not equivalent to a distinction between Israel and the Church.

(2) When speaking of the distinction between the Church and Israel, people have failed to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel. Remnant Israel is a spiritual body, national Israel is not.

Gentile believers are grafted into remnant Israel, whose holy root is the Messiah. Gentile believers have taken the place of Jews who have not believed, but Gentiles as a whole have not replaced Jews as a whole. Only part of Israel has been hardened (Romans 11:25). And God is able to graft Jews back into remnant Israel/the Church when they believe (Romans 11:23).

The proper understanding of Israel and the Church is not replacement theology nor separation theology. The Church has not replaced national Israel. National Israel never was a spiritual body of people, but merely a nation of saved and unsaved, like others nations. And God has a future program of prophecy to fulfill for that nation. Neither has the Church replaced remnant Israel. Paul considered himself part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5), part of Christ (Romans 9:3), and part of the Church (Ephesians 5:29-30). This shows that the Church, the Body of Christ and remnant Israel are synonymous.

Therefore, the Church is not separate from remnant Israel. The Church is remnant Israel. Through faith in Christ, Gentile believers are no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel, nor from the covenants of the promise (Ephesians 2:12). They have been grafted into the Church, an olive tree natural to Jewish people but unnatural to Gentiles. It is for this reason that Paul exhorts his Gentile readership not to be arrogant about their membership within the Church (Romans 11:20).

===============================================
copyright © 1995-2006 Leadership U. All rights reserved.
This site is part of the Telling the Truth Project.

Updated: 14 July 2002

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/remnanttheo.html
************************************************************
Leadership U. Copyright Notice
Copyright/Reproduction Limitations

Unless preceded by another copyright in the text of the previous article, this data file/document is the sole property of Leadership U., It may not be altered or edited in any way. It may be reproduced only in its entirety for circulation as "freeware," without charge. All reproductions of this data file and/or document must contain the copyright notice (i.e., Copyright © 1995-2006 Leadership U.) and this Copyright/Reproduction Limitations notice.

This data file/document may not be used without the permission of Leadership U. for resale or the enhancement of any other product sold.

The content of some files are also protected under additional copyrights

http://www.leaderu.com/menus/copyright.html

by **David L** on Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:24 am

great post.

I attended an Israel Prophecy Conference at Calvary Chapel Chino Hills Aug. 5th, 2006 where I heard a speaker by the name of Jacob Prasch speak on this topic. The question was asked: Will Israel survive? The answer we received was pretty much covered by the above post.

You can get a copy of the conference at David Hocking's Hope for Today website.

by **Peacebloom** on Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:42 pm

So the "partial hardening" of Israel until "the fulness of the Gentiles comes in" refers to remnant Israel or the nation Israel? Either way, some from of Israel has been hardened until the full amount of the Gentiles comes into the olive tree.

There are still future prophecies to be fulfilled by the nation of Israel. There are too many geo-political indicators in those prophecies for them to be fulfilled by anything other than a literal nation of Israel.

Yes, the Church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. According to prophecy, "all Israel will be saved." That means that in the very last days, every surviving Jew at that time will be saved by Jesus. I recall a prophecy in the OT saying that 2/3 of Israel will be killed, but the remnant 1/3 will be saved and refined. Although it's important to realize that the Body is not entirely Gentile, it would be erroneous to ignore those future prophecies which speak of Israel being completely saved after the Gentiles have come in and when Jesus removes the scales from their eyes, so that they may see him clearly and fully.

At least, that's my take on it. May God give you far more understanding than he has shown me.

Much love,
Peacebloom

by **jay7** on Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:10 pm

According to prophecy, "all Israel will be saved." That means that in the very last days, every surviving Jew at that time will be saved by Jesus.

It mean no such thing.

Israel is represented by the olive tree in one example. The natural branches are natural born Israelites while the wild branches are gentiles. It is written that the gentiles can be graffed in to become part of the olive tree making them spiritual or symbolically Isrealites and it is also written that the natural branches can be broken off due to unbelief making them spiritual or symbolic gentiles.

All "Jews" will NOT be saved if they have been broken off.

According to God, he has cast some away for unbelief:

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

The wild olive is symbolic of gentiles and in case it is gentiles that believe upon Christ. The non-wild olive tree is symbolic of physical Israel, those who also believe upon Christ. Here some are broken off and some of the wild ones graffed in. This is because God broke off and cast away all those Israelites which did not believe in Christ and He added in all those gentiles who did making them part of the Israelite olive tree and therefore spiritual Israel. The former natural branches that were broken off are now spiritual gentiles and no longer Israelites.

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Here God warns the former gentiles not to be prideful that they are now part of the olive tree while some of its natural branches were removed. If God didn't spare natural born Israelites, he certainly would have no trouble casting away prideful former-gentiles.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

As long as these former-gentiles continue in God's goodness they shall remain.

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And if the former Israelites that were broken off for unbelief convert to Christ and believe upon Him, then they can be added back into the olive tree.

Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

And just as God made clear that he would easily remove the new additions if they displeased him, he likewise will easily add back those he broke off if they discontinue their disbelief. Praise God that many "Jews" are converting to Christ and leaving behind their former unbelief! They were broken off the tree because they were Antichrist and denied the Lord but many have converted and have been graffed back! Welcome home brothers and sisters in Christ! As for the others still in disbelief, they are still broken off.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If one abides in Christ they shall live, but if one does not abide in Christ, they are cast away, and burned which is the lake of fire, the second death.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

But isn't all Israel supposed to be saved? Of course but you have to remember what Paul wrote in Romans about being broken off the tree for unbelief. That means those broken off are no longer Israelites and Christ said in John that those not abiding in Him will be destroyed. Who lives are only those who are still connected to the olive tree through belief in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the only way to be an Israelite and to be part of His church and body.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In this case it is IMPOSSIBLE for such a person to be renewed through repentance. They have lost their salvation. This is an unforgivable sin.

by **Peacebloom** on Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:33 am

I still plan to post, the time just hasn't come my way.

Much love,
Peace

by **Lazarus43** on Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:22 am

Peacebloom wrote:I still plan to post, the time just hasn't come my way.

Much love,
Peace

I totally understand about not being able to take time to do everything we would like.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **yhudit32548** on Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:46 am

JAcob has been my teacher about 4 years now. I was taken to CAlvary Chapel 32 years ago in Costa Mesa.(still some good ones out there!)Remember Paul says"Dont forget the Root)! Taking the lessons from Israel's history of rebellion against G-d and knowing the same thing will befall us .BUt again--not to forget the root of being grafted in as a wild olive branch. :grin:

Blessings all

by **Blessedayers** on Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:06 pm

The Church is remnant Israel. Through faith in Christ, Gentile believers are no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel, nor from the covenants of the promise (Ephesians 2:12).

This is the only part I can see that I disgree with...

Gentile believers are no longer excluded

Gentiles were never excluded in the sense that no gentile was of the body of Christ/Spiritual Israel before He died for our sins.

Abraham was a gentile who came out from amongst the heathen at the call of God....Caleb a gentile...those that came out of egypt werent all of Israelite heritage but where a mixed multitude....

Gen 41:50
And unto Joseph were born two sons before the year of famine came, whom Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bare unto him.

Ruth was a gentile....

Gentiles have always been included in the family of God....the law was the same for the stranger/gentile and the homeborn alike.

Exo 12:47
All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
Exo 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exo 12:50
Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
Exo 12:51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.

The only distinction between hereditary Israel and the Gentiles is....

In the beginging the nations went to Israel for the good news.....then in order to provoke Israel to jealousy it was given to a people who were not..that being the gentiles...a mixed multitude who thru belief in Christ went on to become a people/family by adoption...just as for ex. Caleb and Ruth were..... and they now have the responsibility to take the good news to the nations....till the times of the gentiles be fulfilled.

by **Blessedayers** on Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:41 am

Isa 66:19
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Isa 66:20
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Isa 66:21
And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

by **Peacebloom** on Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:22 pm

It's been quite a while since I've posted here. I plan to take another look at these ideas and see what I find. I'll try to wait to post until I can be sure that what I say is correct, but I've gotten a lot of things wrong, so don't hold your breath. XD

Much love,
Peacebloom

by **Lazarus43** on Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:54 am

Blessedayers wrote:
The Church is remnant Israel. Through faith in Christ, Gentile believers are no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel, nor from the covenants of the promise (Ephesians 2:12).

This is the only part I can see that I disgree with...

Gentile believers are no longer excluded

Gentiles were never excluded in the sense that no gentile was of the body of Christ/Spiritual Israel before He died for our sins.

Abraham was a gentile who came out from amongst the heathen at the call of God....Caleb a gentile...those that came out of egypt werent all of Israelite heritage but where a mixed multitude....

Gen 41:50
And unto Joseph were born two sons before the year of famine came, whom Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, bare unto him.

Ruth was a gentile....

Gentiles have always been included in the family of God....the law was the same for the stranger/gentile and the homeborn alike.

Exo 12:47
All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
Exo 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exo 12:50
Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
Exo 12:51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.

The only distinction between hereditary Israel and the Gentiles is....

In the beginging the nations went to Israel for the good news.....then in order to provoke Israel to jealousy it was given to a people who were not..that being the gentiles...a mixed multitude who thru belief in Christ went on to become a people/family by adoption...just as for ex. Caleb and Ruth were..... and they now have the responsibility to take the good news to the nations....till the times of the gentiles be fulfilled.

Also:

Ezekiel 47:21-23 (NASB)
Eze 47:21 "So you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 "You shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves and among the aliens who stay in your midst, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 "And in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give {him} his inheritance," declares the Lord GOD.
*Red coloring for emphasis mine.

It is true that conditions(including residence requirements) were laid out which could be met to allow Gentiles to be included. Gentiles who did not meet all the provisions to be included were excluded. I think that is what Paul referred to in part of the letter to the previously excluded Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:11-22 (NASB)
Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," {which is} performed in the flesh by human hands--
Eph 2:12 {remember} that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both {groups into} one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace,
Eph 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Eph 2:17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
Eph 2:18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner {stone,}
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

It makes sense to me.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **Blessedayers** on Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:31 am

Gentiles who did not meet all the provisions to be included were excluded. I think that is what Paul referred to in part of the letter to the previously excluded Ephesians:

Yes....anyone who did not meet the provisions was excluded...many as we know...who were of the Israleite hereitage by blood did not meet the requirements...even tho they thought they did.

Luk 4:25
But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Luk 4:26
But unto none of them was Elijah sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
Luk 4:27
And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

Luk 4:28
And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luk 4:29
And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

This also comes to mind...

Luk 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers!
For ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Another example of this would be the way in which they treated the Samaritans, yet the samaritan women at the well understood more truth than they did.

Joh 4:9
Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria?
for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

Joh 4:19
The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Joh 4:20
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21
Jesus saith unto her,
Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26
Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

Joh 4:27
And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman:
yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
Joh 4:28
The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
Joh 4:29
Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
Joh 4:30 Then they went out of the city, and came unto him.

In the eyes of the rulers of Jerusalem she was a filthy no good hell bound heathen and yet she knew who He was.... :a3:

by **Lazarus43** on Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:34 am

Peacebloom wrote:It's been quite a while since I've posted here. I plan to take another look at these ideas and see what I find. I'll try to wait to post until I can be sure that what I say is correct, but I've gotten a lot of things wrong, so don't hold your breath. XD

Much love,
Peacebloom

Peacebloom,

Thank you for your post. I am looking forward to your next possible post and trying not to hold my breath.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **redeemed1953** on Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:31 pm

Most of Israel today is secular.

THere is an ISRAEL of GOD which is made up of some Jews and some Gentiles.

:a3:

by **Peacebloom** on Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:45 pm

Thank you to everyone interested in this topic. I think my first post on this thread was just me spouting about things that I didn't even look into. Now that I have actually read the initial post, it makes a great deal of sense and clears some things up for me. I get the whole olive tree metaphor now (Finally! Boy, am I a slow learner! :lol:

) I think a good topic of study now would be the prophecies that talk about israel. Which ones are talking about remnant israel or the church and which ones are talking about national israel? Great topic. Thanks guys.

Much love,
Peacebloom

by **joe..** on Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:51 pm

This is what God says (Ezekiel 39:21-29):

“I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day forward. The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.”’

“Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”

Hope this settles the matter.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:30 pm

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved..........

by **Lazarus43** on Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:39 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved..........

We need to look at a little context to understand "all Israel".

Rom 9:6 But {it is} not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are {descended} from Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

("All Israel" does not include those who are only children by flesh.)

Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

According to Scripture, "IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED"

Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in {the passage about} Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to {God's} gracious choice.

(Again, a faithful remnant is not rejected by God.)

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same {Lord} is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

(To the saved remnant Jews are added those saved who were never Jews. All who have been saved are now in the same group. There is no distinction. They are "all Israel," by faith and not by flesh.)

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

(The same mercy is available and needed by Jews, who in disobedience once rejected Christ, and Gentiles.)

Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural {branches} be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

*All Scripture quotes are from the NASB.
*All red coloring is mine.

No element of an order in time is involved. It does not say all Israel will be saved after "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." As long as Gentiles are being saved there can also be some saved out of "partially hardened Israel."

According to Romans 11:23, "if they do not continue in their unbelief" some will continue to be saved by faith and added to the number of saved by faith Gentiles "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Though the gospel was first presented to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, some from both groups are now being saved, and "so" (in this way), "all Israel will be saved" by faith and not by flesh. God has been saving both Jews and Grentiles who "did not continue in their unbelief." The method will continue to be the same "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

It makes sense to me.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **yhudit32548** on Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:53 am

HaShem always has HIS "shmatas"(remnant).
It is never the "wide road" but the "Narrow road" Y'shua said.
A remnant came out of Egypt who believed in HIM(remember when Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness? not all looked upon it.
The Maccabees were a fighting remnant.Most of Israel at that time were going along with all the pagan worship!!
The true followers of Rabbi Y'shua were small.Nothing new then......
nothing new now among us!
Always will be just a remnant.

Shalom

by **Glen** on Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:13 pm

Hi All.

The olive tree represents the new covenant not the remnant, the gentiles were able to graft into the covenant at sinia as well.

Lev 25:45-Moreover of the children of the stranger that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, (in the new covevant of the Spirit the Lord paid at the cross) and their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and shall be your possession.

The Old Covenant of the flesh (they were cut of!)
Exodus 12:19-Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

The New Covenant of the Spirit (they were ungrafted!)
Romans 11-speaks of this.

Pauls ministery through the acts period was the mystery part (what God had planned for the Gentiles) of the new covenant of the Spirit hid in the scriptures, revealed in more detail by revelation from Christ to Paul.

The olive tree represent the Spirit and the Covenant , and its root is that Quickening Spirit that came down from heaven.

But you still have a Covenant made between the Father and the Son before the foundation of the world! which is a mystery hid in the mind of God.

Glen.

by **Blessedayers** on Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:39 pm

Pauls ministery through the acts period was the mystery part (what God had planned for the Gentiles) of the new covenant of the Spirit hid in the scriptures, revealed in more detail by revelation from Christ to Paul.

Yep and AMEN!!!

And we got the verses to prove it...LOL

by **yhudit32548** on Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:24 am

Who did G-D make a "new covenant " with ?........

Shalom

by **David L** on Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:21 pm

"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day I took them out of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it: and I will be their God, and they will be My people. Jeremiah 31:31-33

"do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you [Christian!]. Emphasis added... Romans 11:18

by **redeemed1953** on Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:47 pm

The bottom line is this:

THere are some Jews and some Gentiles who make up the Israel of God.

:a3:

by **Mrs. B** on Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:10 am

The New Covenant......

Jesus came Preaching The Kingdom of God.....

Jesus taught a New Birth......Born again by the water and the Spirit.....

Jesus said......Ye Must Be Born Again

John 4:24......God is A Spirit...

and they that worship HIM Must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth....

This Gospel is to Be Preached to Every Nation.......

He who Believes shall be saved........he that believeth NOT shall not be saved......

Faith is Believing......Abraham Believed God....before the law and it was counted unto him for Righteousness....

Rom. 4:13......For the Promise....that he should be the heir of the World, was not to Abraham, or to His Seed through the LAW.....But through the Righteousness OF FAITH....

14......For.......If They which are of the Law be HEIRS........FAITH IS MADE VOID.....AND THE PROMISE MADE OF NONE EFFECT.......

17......(As it is written......I have made thee a Father of Many Nations...)

The Promise........was to those who believed.....

The Promise.....made in Gen.3:15......That God would have a seed....who would bruise satan's head.....and he would bruise his heel.....

Jesus said......Go to Jerusalem and tarry until you Receive the Promise of the Father......The Holy Spirit....

You Must Be Born Again.......Except Ye are Born again.....You shall not see the Kingdom of God.....

John 3:3....Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God

John 3:5.....Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit....He cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD........

another place...Jesus said....The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation.......The Kingdom of God is within you....WITHIN YOU....

We are born again into the Kingdom of God......

You cannot Join the Kingdom of God........you must be born into it....

Today we are taught .......you accept Jesus....join the church.....or become a church member and you are saved......this is a/c teaching....

The Kingdom of God is Spiritual.......and Everyone who is saved is Born into it........you cannot join...it is a New Birth....Born of the Holy Spirit....we are Translated into the Kingdom of God...Col 1:13. Who hath delivered us from the Power of Darkness....and hath Translated us into the Kingdom of His Dear Son......

14......In Whom we have redemption through His Blood....Even the forgivness of Sins....

15......Who is the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD.....THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE:

16.....For by Him....were all things created...that are in Heaven...and that are in Earth....Visible and Invisible....Whether they be thrones or dominions, or Principalities, or Powers: All things were Created by Him, and for Him.....

17.....And He is Before all things, and by Him all Things Consist....

18....And He is the Head of the Body.....THE CHURCH....WHO IS THE BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN.....FROM THE DEAD....
THAT.....IN ALL THINGS.....HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE...

19.......For it Pleased the Father that in him Should All Fulness Dwell....

20......And....Having Made Peace....through the Blood of His Cross....by Him to reconcile all Things unto Himself...By Him....I say..whether they be things In Earth....Or thing in Heaven....

21.......AND YOU.....THAT WERE SOMETIME ALIENATED AND ENEMIES IN YOUR MIND......by wicked works....Yet Now hath he Reconciled....

22....In the Body of His flesh through death....to Present You Holy and Unblameable and Unreproveable in His Sight......

Notice this....

23......If Ye Continue in the FAITH.....GROUNDED and settled, and be not Moved away From the Hope of the Gospel....Which ye Have heard....and Which was Preached to Every CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN.....
WHEREOF I PAUL AM MADE A MINSTER......

The Gospel was first Preached to the Jews and the Nation of Israel.....

Jesus said....

John 8:31.....Then said Jesus to those Jews which Believed on Him.....If ye continue....in my word.....then are ye my disciples indeed....

32......And ye shall know the truth....and the truth shall make you free....

The Gospel is the Same to the Gentile as to the Jew.......We must Believe that Jesus is the Christ....The Son of God.....and keep His Word......

There are not two Gospels.......on for the Jew and one for the Gentile....Ther is only one way.....Jesus is the Way.....

John 5:39.....Search the Scriptures....for in them ye think ye have eternal life....and they are they which testify of me......

43........I am come in My Father's Name........and ye receive me not...

If Another shall Come in His Name.....him ye will receive.....

This I believe is the Antichrist.......Jesus said....You receive me not....But if another shall come in his name.....him ye will receive......

I believe this will happen........in our day....

bb

by **Lazarus43** on Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:39 pm

Bump... to make it easier for "OBXBob" to find and refresh his memory about what I believe. I may not agree with every single word of the article, but it makes a lot of sense to me. I put it here so that it could be debated.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **OBXBob** on Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:22 pm

Bump... to make it easier for "OBXBob" to find and refresh his memory about what I believe.

Thanks Laz!

My position toward the nation of Israel has not changed! I don't believe God is 'done' in dealing with them.

YBIC,

Bob

by **Lazarus43** on Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:47 pm

OBXBob wrote:
Bump... to make it easier for "OBXBob" to find and refresh his memory about what I believe.

Thanks Laz!

My position toward the nation of Israel has not changed! I don't believe God is 'done' in dealing with them.

YBIC,

Bob

Bob,

Please feel free to use scripture to correct any errors you see in the "Remnant Theology" article that began this topic. Thank you.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **OBXBob** on Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:42 pm

Hello Laz,

I think Bible prophecy is clear on what Israel's role, and God's role with Israel will be.

I know from other threads you believe most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled. IMO, this is why you're not apparently looking towards Israel, in fact, you are seemingly against the nation of Israel. Thus, IMO, this has nothing to do with the merits of Remnant theology. You believe that at least half of the 70th week of Daniel, if not all of it, occurred nearly 2,000 years ago. That's the root of your feelings toward Israel, as I see it.

So, Laz, do you think that the events of Zechariah 12:3 have already occurred, as well? Does the bolded text mean anything to you, Laz?

Zechariah 12:3. 3. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

YBIC,

Bob

by **Mrs. B** on Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:11 pm

Jacob's Troubles......

And a Short Work.....
Romans 9:28.....For he will finish the work,
and cut it short in Righteousness:
Because a Short Work will the Lord make upon the Earth....

Jeremiah 30:7.....Alas! for that day is Great, So that none is like it:'
it is even the Time of Jacob's Trouble; But he shall be saved out of it....

8.....For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will Break his Yoke from off thy Neck, and will Burst thy bond, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

9.....But they shall Serve the Lord Their God.....and David (Jesus) their King whom I will Raise up unto them.....

11....For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to Save thee:
Though I Make a Full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, Yet will I not make a full End of Thee:
But I will Correct Thee in Measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.......

bb

by **Lazarus43** on Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:23 am

I do not have time right now to put verses back into context and look at when they were written and what the original readers understood the scripture to mean. It can be done. It just takes time to do it.

Blessings to all who have posted to this topic. It is an important one, even though some may have no desire to stay on topic.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **Lazarus43** on Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:07 am

There are very serious error in the Remnant Theology teachings.

Excerpt quoted from another topic which is now locked.

Perhaps the "very serious error" should be made clear and discussed or elaborated upon in a thread about "remnant theology" like this one.

It would be good if specific statements of the error were made and that Scripture showing clearly where "remnant theology" is seen to be in error could be used.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **AndCanItBe** on Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:29 am

I actually agree with most of what was stated about remnant theology and don't consider it heresy. Here's the problem:

The third problem is that people usually do not bother to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel, even though the Bible clearly makes that distinction (Romans 9:6-8, 11:1-7).

I agree with that entirely, and it works on both sides of this issue. You cannot entirely spiritualize Israel, sometimes God is still dealing with the nation, and what it boils down to, is that He is not done with them yet. We see this in Daniel 9

24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

and again in Revelation 4

4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Those 144,000 will be saved the same way we are, but they will also be part of national Israel. The problem is Laz, if you combine Remnant theology with a view that the 70 weeks of dealing with national Israel are already done and over with, you essentially become a replacement theologist in practice, though you may not view it that way in your head. The Church and Israel are one, but God is not done with the nation of Israel yet, because of those 144,000 that are the firstfruits. If you think the Church and Israel are one (which I agree with) but also think that God is done with National Israel, which in turn causes you to spiritualize everything said about Israel in prophecy, then you have essentially become a replacement theologist in practice. Like the guy said, it boils down to correctly discerning when national Israel as opposed to spiritual Israel is being spoken about in a passage.

by **Lazarus43** on Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:00 am

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. Revelation 7:4 (NIV)

Looks more like a remnant "from all the tribes of Israel" which make up only part of the modern nation of Israel. There are also many who consider themselves part of "the tribes of Israel" who do not live in the modern nation called Israel. It does not make sense to me to exclude them from the 144,000.
**************************************************************
Edited only to correct the Scripture reference.
**************************************************************

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **Abiding in His Word** on Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:03 am

AndCanItBe wrote:
Those 144,000 will be saved the same way we are, but they will also be part of national Israel. The problem is Laz, if you combine Remnant theology with a view that the 70 weeks of dealing with national Israel are already done and over with, you essentially become a replacement theologist in practice, though you may not view it that way in your head. The Church and Israel are one, but God is not done with the nation of Israel yet, because of those 144,000 that are the firstfruits. If you think the Church and Israel are one (which I agree with) but also think that God is done with National Israel, which in turn causes you to spiritualize everything said about Israel in prophecy, then you have essentially become a replacement theologist in practice. Like the guy said, it boils down to correctly discerning when national Israel as opposed to spiritual Israel is being spoken about in a passage.

Perfectly stated!

Israel has always been a "signpost" for watching the fulfillment of prophecy. A number of prophecies concerning Israel have yet to be fulfilled, but if you see God's promises and covenant with the nation of Israel as being fulfilled in the "church", they do not make sense.

God's spiritual Israel, made up of Jews and Gentiles without distinction, shall call one another brethren and sisters, but as a nation that was the recipient of specific prophecies and promises, God is not finished with Israel yet.

Here's just one or two prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled:

Jer 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Eze 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God

Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Eze 36:28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Isa 62:1 For Zion's sake I will not be silent, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until its righteousness goes out as brightness, and her salvation as a burning lamp.
Isa 62:2 And the nations will see your righteousness, and all kings your glory; and you will be called by a new name, which the mouth of Jehovah will name.
Isa 62:3 You also will be a crown of glory in the hand of Jehovah, and a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
Isa 62:4 You will no more be called Forsaken; nor will your land any more be called Desolate; but you will be called My Delight is in her, and your land, Married; for Jehovah delights in you, and your land is married.

These scriptures indicate that there will be a regeneration in the nation of Israel. The reason I consider the error of replacement theology serious, is because it assumes God has abandoned those He clearly chose, brought them out of Egypt, made them into a nation, gave them a land to call their own, and then did not fulfill His covenant promises to them.

It also ignores the scriptures where Paul understood that God has yet to fulfill his promises to Israel.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."
Rom 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

(caps not mine)

Please read the whole 11th chapter of Romans.

There are several threads where replacement theology has been discussed and numerous members have clearly stated the reasons why this teaching is in error. If you do a search, you will find them.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:06 am

Discussion regarding this topic is fine as long as members are willing to discuss. However, when one refuses to participate in a discussion, but rather simply continues to paste the same response without adequate scriptural foundation, it is finished and will no longer be productive.

by **Lazarus43** on Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:15 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Discussion regarding this topic is fine as long as members are willing to discuss. However, when one refuses to participate in a discussion, but rather simply continues to paste the same response without adequate scriptural foundation, it is finished and will no longer be productive.

"OBXBob" insists on bringing the seventy sevens of years prophecy given to Daniel into this topic. It is a "red herring" issue since it is was not mentioned in any post previous to his last post and is not even hinted at in the posted article that began the topic. The issues that opening up a discussion about the seventy weeks prophecy would raise do not define any passage of scripture that was posted in the whole thread before OBXBob's post. I do not have time for that long detour.
************************************************************
"AndCanItBe" has also attempted to insert the unrelated seventy weeks prophecy into the discussion and used it to try and redefine "remnant theology" as "replacement theology," completely ignoring what the author of the article has specifically written about the differences in the two beliefs.

If you think the Church and Israel are one (which I agree with) but also think that God is done with National Israel, which in turn causes you to spiritualize everything said about Israel in prophecy, then you have essentially become a replacement theologist in practice.

Then by assuming something I have never said or implied, "God is done with National Israel," defines everything I believe about prophecy, a false argument is made.

If you want to take time to read all the posts I have made you will never see me saying anything like, "God is done with National Israel." I do not understand all things, but I am not as ignorant as you assume.
************************************************************
A big :a3:

from "Abiding in His Word" also shows agreement to "AndCanItBe" bringing in the unrelated seventy weeks prophecy "red herring." I will not have time today to put all the passages "Abiding in His Word" quoted back into context today. It is much faster, shorter, and easier to make an out-of-context quote that can lead to a misunderstanding of Scripture than to make a full context quote and explain it.

It should be noted that the context needed to understand Romans 11:25-29 includes at the least all of Romans 9, 10 and 11.
************************************************************

Red herring argument: You intentionally digress from the real issue being discussed, introducing a side issue that has nothing to do with the real issue under discussion--in an attempt to remove attention from the real issue. This is often very subtle and the new issue can often seem closely related to the real issue.

Quoted from http://www.biblestudying.net/logical.html

You are all in authority here and can do whatever you wish to me. I am short of time and I am being blunt, and I am sorry if this post offends you, but I have always tried to tell the truth, as I understand it.
************************************************************
This is a more Scriptural response to "AndCanItBe."

A connection to the modern nation called Israel made by linking Daniel 9:24 and Revelation 7:4 is pure eisegesis. The context says nothing about a nation called Israel. It only said, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." It is possible that "the earth or the sea or the trees" may not be inside the borders of a modern nation called Israel. The list of those sealed speaks only of tribes. It does not say 144,00 from any one nation.

Revelation 7:1-8 (NASB)
Rev 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Rev 7:5 the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand {were} sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6 the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7 the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8 the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand {were} sealed.

To say the 144,000 must come from "national Israel" ignores the fact that more people who consider themselves Jewish today live outside Israel's borders than live in the nation. To see statistics on "The Jewish Population of the World, (2006)" go to:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

That is all I have time for now.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **AndCanItBe** on Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:56 pm

I'm no debater, Laz, I'm sure you know that. My intention was to cut to the heart of the disagreement, not throw a 'red herring', I've never even heard the term before in reference to debating. I see there is nothing that I can say here that will have any impact on you, considering I don't even know the rules of debate that you like to adhere to. Perhaps a more worthy opponent will come along for you that is schooled in such things. Thanks, and no offense taken.

by **Lazarus43** on Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:32 pm

AndCanItBe wrote:I'm no debater, Laz, I'm sure you know that. My intention was to cut to the heart of the disagreement, not throw a 'red herring', I've never even heard the term before in reference to debating. I see there is nothing that I can say here that will have any impact on you, considering I don't even know the rules of debate that you like to adhere to. Perhaps a more worthy opponent will come along for you that is schooled in such things. Thanks, and no offense taken.

I only want this thread to stay on topic since I think it is an important topic. It is nothing to do with "rules of debate." It is just that I am weary of poor logic being used and dragging a discussion off track. I have asked "perigrini" to look at a topic and give input at times since he does seem to use good logic. I do not know if he would be interested in this topic.

Anyway, thank you for the reply and I am glad you are not offended.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **AndCanItBe** on Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:54 pm

It is just that I am weary of poor logic being used and dragging a discussion off track.

Now I see. It's okay Laz, I know what I am and I know what I'm not. Logical is not my forte. I will be interested in reading the thread though. I actually do agree with most of what that guy said in the original post also.

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:10 am

A few points regarding this . . .

While I find the OP article on the whole interesting, and that there are a number of good points made, I also think that it has a few shortcomings.

I want to make clear that I very much agree that there is a Spiritual Israel which is much like Mr. Gay describes, however, I think that he neglects some important Scriptures on this topic, and arrives at a somewhat erroneous conclusion, if I have understood him correctly.

The author presents 2 views of the Church and Israel that represent extreme positions, then endeavors to show that the truth lies in the middle.

He presents on the one hand the total blending of the two, and on the other, their total separation.

He makes no mention of the common view that the Church is called out from all peoples, and that afterward, the entire remnant of National Israel will be saved, and that there is a prophesied future for a Saved National Israel, which is how I generally see dispensational eschatology presented. Instead, he presents dispensationalism as espousing a completely Gentile Church, something that I have never seen taught, and that is in obvious conflict with Scripture.

To me, this is setting up a Straw Man, presenting an extreme and uncommon position of the view he argues against. But disproving that extreme view does not disprove the view that National Israel has a separate eschatological future, separate from the Church, in which the entire remainder of Israel will be saved, called to faith separately from the church. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, let’s simply say that he has heard the extreme view commonly taught, without having heard the view that I normally hear taught.

While I agree that the Church does not replace Israel, I also agree that the the Church is not exclusively Gentile. But I do not agree with his conclusion, which is in reality replacement theology repackaged. While he pays lip service to the prophesied future of “National Israel”, he still claims that there will not be a distinct “Saved Israel”, composed of Jews but not gentiles, which is prophesied in the Bible. In his view, the Church and Spiritual Israel remain one and the same on all levels. That is, again, if I understand him correctly.

While we are all joined in Christ, and this is where he is right on the money in several of his points, there is yet a distinction that will be maintained. For instance . . .

Matthew 19:27-28 “Then answering, Peter said to Him, Behold, we left all things and followed You. What then shall be to us? And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, You who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
and . . .

Luke 22:29-30 “And I appoint a kingdom to you, as My Father appointed to Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

and . . .

Isaiah 19:24-25 “In that day Israel shall be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, whom Jehovah of Hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be My people Egypt, and Assyria, the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.

If we agree that only the redeemed will enter into the kingdom age, then of neccesity, national distinctions among the redeemed will remain.

Mr. Gay asks, “Why then do people want to replace national Israel with the Church or separate Israel and the Church?” The first problem is that this is a Loaded Question, another Logical Fallacy, also known as a Complex Question.

Any answer to this question agrees with his hidden assertion that people “want” to come to these conclusion, and that reaching these conclusion are a result of some inner motivation. People may simply reach these conclusions as a result of honest and diligent study.

He then answers his question with Sweeping Generalizations, such as, “People usually equate ‘Church’ with Gentiles.” For one thing, I would think that most people who study these things realize that Jews become saved as well as Gentiles. For another, this doesn’t actually answer his question of why “people want to replace nation Israel with the Church, etc.” Even if someone is making this cognitive error, that doesn’t address their motivation, assuming such a motivation were to exist.

He offers a blended definition of what the Church is, first saying, “The Church is the assembly of people, whether Jew or Gentile, who have been called out of the world to form the spiritual Body of Christ”, but then going on to, “The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel.” As the Bible talks about Spiritual Israel, it states that there is neither Greek nor Jew. National distinctions disappear within the Church, and yet there will still be national distinctions maintained, therefore, this approach of consolidating Israel entirely within the Church, to the point that there is no longer a referrent to a saved national Israel, doesn’t tell the full story.

While all believers are Spiritual Israel, not all believers are National Israel, and God has plans for National Israel as a Saved Remnant, that cannot, and will not be fulfilled by Spiritual Israel.

Jeremiah 31:35-37
(35) So says Jehovah, who gives the sun for a light by day, the laws of the moon, and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar, Jehovah of Hosts is His name.
(36) If these ordinances depart from before Me, says Jehovah, the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.

There are a number of other equally specific passages that prophesy this same thing. While the Church is the spiritual seed of Abraham, it is never said to be the spiritual seed of Jacob, or the spiritual seed of Israel. And it is never referred to as the “nation” Israel.

While I don’t have the time to give this article a full treatment right now, there are a couple of other things I’d like to point out.

Mr. Gay states,

"Paul's olive tree metaphor is similar to his human body metaphor (Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12ff). The fact that he uses the two metaphors so close to one another (Romans 11 and 12) shows he is speaking about the same group of people in both.”

I forget right now the name of this Logical Fallacy, but the problem is that just because two metaphors appear in close proximity does not mean that they are intended to make the same point, or that they are even related. That needs to be shown exegetically. Two things can be near to each other without being connected.

In my opinion, Paul is addressing two separate matters in those passages.

He further writes, “But the Church is not new. The Church is not new because it is simply remnant Israel.” This conflicts with Jesus’ words,

Mat 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.”

That Jesus says, “will build” indicates a future action, as that is the verb tense used. Mr. Gay acknowledges this, as he refers to this very verse, yet denies it’s reality only two paragraphs later.

I will close with this.

Ezekiel 37:21-28
(21) And say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and will bring them into their own land.
(22) And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two nations still. And they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.
(23) And they will not still be defiled with their idols, even with their filthy idols, nor with all of their transgressions. But I will save them out of all their dwelling places where they have sinned in them, and I will cleanse them. So they shall be for a people to Me and I will be for God to them.
(24) And My Servant, David, shall be King over them. And there shall be one Shepherd to all of them. And they shall walk in My judgments and keep My statutes, and do them.
(25) And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, there where your fathers dwelt in it. And they shall dwell on it, they and their sons, and the sons of their sons, forever. And My Servant David shall be a ruler to them forever.
(26) And I will cut a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant it shall be with them, And I will place them and multiply them, and I will put My sanctuary in their midst forever.
(27) And My tabernacle shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
(28) And when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever, the nations shall know that I, Jehovah, sanctify Israel.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of the ones saved will walk in its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **crmann** on Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:50 am

Greetings,, Lazarus43..

Thank you for starting this thread on the Remnant Theology.

This thread has put into words those thoughts which I have had in my had for a long time but have been unable to put on paper.

As long as all can stay on topic, this is an excellent discussion and will continue to be.

The Old Timer

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:51 pm

Peacebloom wrote:So the "partial hardening" of Israel until "the fulness of the Gentiles comes in" refers to remnant Israel or the nation Israel? Either way, some from of Israel has been hardened until the full amount of the Gentiles comes into the olive tree.

Hi Peacebloom,

This raises a good point, it is in fact a portion of National Israel that has been hardened. It will be the hardening of this part of National Israel that will be removed, and so, at that time, all of National Israel will be saved.

There are still future prophecies to be fulfilled by the nation of Israel. There are too many geo-political indicators in those prophecies for them to be fulfilled by anything other than a literal nation of Israel.

I absolutely agree!

Yes, the Church is made up of both Jews and Gentiles. According to prophecy, "all Israel will be saved." That means that in the very last days, every surviving Jew at that time will be saved by Jesus. I recall a prophecy in the OT saying that 2/3 of Israel will be killed, but the remnant 1/3 will be saved and refined. Although it's important to realize that the Body is not entirely Gentile, it would be erroneous to ignore those future prophecies which speak of Israel being completely saved after the Gentiles have come in and when Jesus removes the scales from their eyes, so that they may see him clearly and fully.

Zechariah 13:8-9
(8) And it shall be in all the land, says Jehovah, two parts in it shall be cut off and perish, but the third shall be left in it.
(9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined. And I will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, It is My people, and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:49 pm

It is written that the gentiles can be graffed in to become part of the olive tree making them spiritual or symbolically Isrealites and it is also written that the natural branches can be broken off due to unbelief making them spiritual or symbolic gentiles.

I don’t think this quite follows Paul’s line of thought here.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and against nature were grafted into a good olive tree, how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive tree?

These are still considered to be of the “good” olive tree. Paul is talking about national distinctions.

Otherwise, much of what he is saying in this chapter would be self-evident. If Paul is speaking about “Israel” simply as “all who are saved”, then what sense does it make for him to write, “all of Israel shall be saved”? Of course it will be, since Israel is defined as the saved, according to this view.

Earlier he has said that part of Israel has been hardened. He is not saying that part of “Spiritual Israel” has been hardened, these are not “Spiritual Israel”, they are hardened. Then he says the hardening would be removed from the part of Israel that was hardened. This again is not “Spiritual Israel”, as they are hardened at the time they are acted upon, that is, the hardness being removed.

And so to maintain expositional constancy, it is not “Spiritual Israel” that shall all be saved, Paul has been, and continues to talk about National Israel.

There is a portion of the nation of Israel that is hardened, but that hardness will be removed from that portion of the nation of Israel when the number of Gentiles is filled up. And so all of the nation of Israel will be saved, just as it is written.

When adding to this revelation the rest of what we are told of this time, it is clear to me that two thirds of the Jews will perish in the time of Jacob’s trouble, but the remaining third will be saved out of it. When Jesus returns to this earth, revealed in glory, every remaining Jew will have come to faith, and will be redeemed.

Love in Christ,

Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:49 pm

To comment briefly on several posts, before Christ came, salvation was available to the gentiles by their becoming Jews through keeping the covenant, by becoming circumcised, offering sacrifice, and keeping the Law.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:50 pm

Referrencing the 70 weeks of Daniel in this discussion is not a red herring if the 70 weeks are not all fulfilled, since they specifically involve national Israel. Just because it was not raised in the OP doesn’t matter. Neither were several other Scriptures mentioned in the OP that have direct implication with a future status of National Israel.

These are relevant point to this topic. If the Bible prophesies that God will be dealing in spiritual matters with national Israel, i.e. the physical descendants of Jacob, in ways that He is not doing with the gentiles, saved or unsaved, then this shows that the OP article was not complete in its conclusions.

I agree that while what is discussed is being called “Remnant Theology”, as it is presented, it functions as “Replacement Theology” by denying Israel’s special end-times role and disposition.

I think that a definition of “national Israel” is in order. When I use this term, I am specifically referring to the physical descendents of Jacob, whether within or without the borders of the modern-day state of Israel.

Love in Christ,
mark

by **Mrs. B** on Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:48 am

Replacement Theology?

Matt. 26:26.....And as they were eating......Jesus took bread, and blessed it......and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take...Eat....THIS IS MY BODY.

27....And he took the CUP...and gave thanks, and gave it to them....saying.....Drink ye all of it:

28.....For THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.....(NEW COVENANT).....WHICH is Shed for Many for the Remission of sins.....

29.....BUT...I say unto you....I will Not Drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine....until that day when I drink it New with you in MY Father's KINGDOM.......

52.....Then said Jesus unto him....Put up Again thy sword....

53.....Thinkest thou that I cannot Now pray to my Father,,,,,

54.....BUT HOW THEN SHALL THE SCRIPTURES BE FULFILLED....THAT THUS IT MUST BE?

56......But ALL this was done, that the Scriptures of the PROPHETS....
might be fulfilled....Then all the Disciples forsook him, and Fled.....

The Jewish People are the first Believers.......The twelve Apostles were of the Tribles of Israel....The Gospel was Preached to the Jewish People as a Nation.....They First Preached the Gospel......and hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God....on earth

Matt: 28:18......And Jesus came and Spake unto them....Saying.....
ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME.....IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.....

19.....GO YE THEREFORE AND TEACH ALL NATIONS.....
Baptizing them in the Name of the Father....and of the Son.....and of the Holy Ghost:

20......TEACHING them to Observe all things whatsoever I have Commanded you: and Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the End of the World....

The Gospel of the Kingdom was first Preached to the Tribes of Israel.....Go first to the House of Israel and preach this Gospel....
The Gospel First was preached to the Lost House of Israel......

Then the Mystery....which was hid for ages was revealed.....That the Gospel of Jesus was to be preached to Every Nation.....and all peoples who believed could come in......could be grafted in to the Promises made to Abraham......all nations would be blessed.....

Jesus taught.....The Kingdom of God.....and you have to be born into.....
John wrote......Except a man be born again.....he cannot see the Kingdom of God.....

A short work with Israel......
I believe Jacob's trouble and the Short work with Israel is the same......
God is still working with the seed of Abraham......giving them every chance to see that Jesus is the Messiah......Bringing them Back to their home land is a Witness to them.....and to the World...God is God....and all Nations will be Judged at Jerusalem......This has been spoken by the Prophets........the Last Days....(7?)

bb

by **Mrs. B** on Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:13 am

Sins of many.....

Hebrews 9:28......So..Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many:
and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation....

Hebrews 10:12....But this man.....after he had offered One Sacrifice for sins Forever.....Sat Down on the Right Hand of God.....

Jesus said...It is finished....

13......From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made His footstool..

14.....For by One offering.....He hath Perfected Forever Them that are sanctified...

15......Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a Witness to Us;
for after that He had said before.......

16.....This is the Covenant......that I will make with them....after those days, saith the Lord, I Will put My Laws into their Hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17.....And their sins and iniquities will I remember No More....

The Holy Spirit in us......writes the Law of God in our hearts.....we cannot sin.....His Spirit bears witness to our spirit....
Paul wrote....the things I once loved I now hate......and the things I once hated I now Love.....

God changes us.....we Become Brand New....A New Creature....Born of God....

John wrote....

I John 3:1.....Behold, what manner of Love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God:
therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not...

2.....Beloved, Now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that , when he shall appear, we shall be like him;
for we shall see Him as He is.....

3.....And Every man that Hath this Hope in him Purifieth Himself, even as He is Pure.....

Every man that hath this Hope Purifieth Himself.....we can not sin....and have no desire to sin....But we want to Be like Him......They were First Called Christians in Antiock first.....Christ in you.....the Hope of Glory.....

we are Santified....by His Holy Spirit that lives in us.....

bb

by **Lazarus43** on Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:58 am

mark s wrote:Referrencing the 70 weeks of Daniel in this discussion is not a red herring if the 70 weeks are not all fulfilled, since they specifically involve national Israel. Just because it was not raised in the OP doesn’t matter. Neither were several other Scriptures mentioned in the OP that have direct implication with a future status of National Israel.

These are relevant point to this topic. If the Bible prophesies that God will be dealing in spiritual matters with national Israel, i.e. the physical descendants of Jacob, in ways that He is not doing with the gentiles, saved or unsaved, then this shows that the OP article was not complete in its conclusions.

I agree that while what is discussed is being called “Remnant Theology”, as it is presented, it functions as “Replacement Theology” by denying Israel’s special end-times role and disposition.

I think that a definition of “national Israel” is in order. When I use this term, I am specifically referring to the physical descendents of Jacob, whether within or without the borders of the modern-day state of Israel.

Love in Christ,
mark

I am sorry that I do not have time right now to comment in detail on the approximately ten screens of posts that you have just made. When I have more time, I will probably try to comment on one point at a time.

I do not know if you read the article, but you apparently did not notice what the author wrote about "national Israel" near the end of the article. Right now, I just want to make a short summary of what I understand "remnant theology" to be saying.

I believe that what we call the "church" began with a remnant who had began in the law of Moses and then trusted in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The unbelief of those not in the remnant caused them to be "cut off" and made the same as Gentile unbelievers, just as prophesied. Gentiles who believed were later added to the faithful remnant. They did not replace the remnant. They are not separate from the remnant. Gentile believers have been joined to the remnant and become one with the remnant. All unbelievers, Jew and gentile, are cut off, but are able to be added to the faithful if they trust in Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The plan of salvation is the same for all of mankind.

The Greek word translated "church" is "ekklesia" or "ecclesia." I have seen it transliterated both ways. As I understand it, that word appears 73 times in the LXX version of the Old Testament, which is what was commonly read in the first century, and is still used by some Christians today. Many New Testament quotes are from it. When the Old Testament faithful gathered and joined in covenant and worshiped God, they were an "ekklesia." Just as gentiles could become part of that "ekklesia," they have been allowed to become part of the New Testament "ekklesia," which began with a faithful remnant of the Old Testament "ekklesia" trusting in Jesus Christ of Nazareth to snatch them from the jaws of sin and death. As I understand it, this is the "church" being built by Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

by **OBXBob** on Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:34 am

Referrencing the 70 weeks of Daniel in this discussion is not a red herring if the 70 weeks are not all fulfilled, since they specifically involve national Israel. Just because it was not raised in the OP doesn’t matter. Neither were several other Scriptures mentioned in the OP that have direct implication with a future status of National Israel.

These are relevant point to this topic. If the Bible prophesies that God will be dealing in spiritual matters with national Israel, i.e. the physical descendants of Jacob, in ways that He is not doing with the gentiles, saved or unsaved, then this shows that the OP article was not complete in its conclusions.

I agree that while what is discussed is being called “Remnant Theology”, as it is presented, it functions as “Replacement Theology” by denying Israel’s special end-times role and disposition.

I think that a definition of “national Israel” is in order. When I use this term, I am specifically referring to the physical descendents of Jacob, whether within or without the borders of the modern-day state of Israel.

Love in Christ,
mark

YBIC,

Bob

Remnant Theology

Remnant Theology

Olive Tree New Covenant.

Remnant Thinking

The New Covenant....

Jacobs Trouble.....

Who is online