We ARE in the 70th Week!

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We ARE in the 70th Week!

Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:36 pm

I can appreciate those that think that we may be in the first stages of the 70th week (I tend to think we probably aren't, but we will soon see). I'm glad to see that most who think we are in the Week use terms like "maybe" and "might be," but I've also seen it quite a few times here when individuals say that we ARE in the 70th Week, as if it's a fact.

I think this is unwise. Even IF we are, it is not a fact that we can know yet. I'm just posting this to request that you think a little more thoroughly and learn from those Christian generations before us that spoke hastily. Because we don't have the actual proof yet, but only possible conditions, there is a real possibility that it just may not have started yet. If we speak boldly and it doesn't come to pass we look like fools. It's better to be silent and let our neighbors think we are wise than it is to open our mouths and prove we aren't.

Unless God has spoken to you with a CLEAR voice telling you to proclaim the 70th Week has begun, for the truth's sake, for the Church's reputation and for Him, I humbly ask that you wouldn't.
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Postby Sue-M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:07 pm

I believe that we are. So, I guess I'm a rebel.
Luke 21:28

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Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:13 pm

You "believe" we are. That is not the kind of statement that I addressed.
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70th

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:18 pm

Hey, I believe we're in the "MIDST" of the week---------about 2000 years worth of "MIDST"-------I didn't say I know, but I do STRONGLY believe so-------------blessings to all who believe otherwise-----but I'm probably right-----------HUMBLY submited-----shorttribber :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:25 pm

about 2000 years worth of "MIDST"


What does that mean, shorttribber?
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Postby Sue-M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:58 pm

Look, Jesus told us that when Israel becomes a nation again, this generation will not pass away. Considering everything that is going on in the world, I have to say that, yes, I do believe we have entered into the 70th week. I can say this. I am not saying that God told me this. This is what I believe. This is exactly why I come here, in fact. Because, I believe it so much that I am now looking up!
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby Sue-M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:01 pm

Smallbucket, what are you planning on doing, speaking about it in code then? I mean, why say, well.....we might be.....

Come on, be real. You believe it also. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here.
Luke 21:28

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Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:10 pm

Sue-M wrote:Look, Jesus told us that when Israel becomes a nation again, this generation will not pass away. Considering everything that is going on in the world, I have to say that, yes, I do believe we have entered into the 70th week. I can say this. I am not saying that God told me this. This is what I believe. This is exactly why I come here, in fact. Because, I believe it so much that I am now looking up!


But He didn't say that the generation that sees Israel become a nation would be the generation that sees His return. He said, "When you see ALL these things, recognize that He is near..."

We have not seen all the things He described in the Olivet Discourse, namely the abomination of desolation. According to Jesus' own words, when we see THAT we will know we are the generation He is referring to (But I also think that when we see sacrifices reinstated we will be the generation).

The fig tree in Matt. 24:32 is not a symbolic message speaking of the Jews obtaining Israel. It is simply a parable, just as Jesus said it was:

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree.."

It's a general statement about ALL trees, and the fact that when they put forth leaves, obviously summer is near. Similarly, when we see the things Jesus teaches of in Matt 24 we will know He is near.

Luke proves that He truly speaking of trees in general and not Israel.

"Behold the fig tree and ALL the trees..." Luke 21:29
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Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:17 pm

Sue-M wrote:Smallbucket, what are you planning on doing, speaking about it in code then? I mean, why say, well.....we might be.....

Come on, be real. You believe it also. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here.


Come on, be real? I guess you know my thoughts better than I do! I didn't think I believed it, but I guess I was wrong! The "M" in Sue M must stand for mind reader.
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Postby Sue-M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:18 pm

Why can't people just say what they think? I don't care, if I am wrong, I will be a fool for Jesus.

I have actually been telling fellow Christians that I know or Christians that I meet that the time is very short. I don't say specifically that we are in the 70th week, because, it's odd for me to say that. I just say that I believe we have only a few years left before we see the AOD. People need to know that we are close. That's why Jesus told us to watch. That's why Jesus told us things to look for. So, that we would know that we are close. It's exciting. I can't wait to see Jesus! And I will shout it from the rooftops.

If you want to be careful with your words, go ahead. I'd rather make sure I warn everyone I can. I don't care if I am shamed about this. It's too important.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:24 pm

Sue-M wrote:Why can't people just say what they think? I don't care, if I am wrong, I will be a fool for Jesus.

I have actually been telling fellow Christians that I know or Christians that I meet that the time is very short. I don't say specifically that we are in the 70th week, because, it's odd for me to say that. I just say that I believe we have only a few years left before we see the AOD. People need to know that we are close. That's why Jesus told us to watch. That's why Jesus told us things to look for. So, that we would know that we are close. It's exciting. I can't wait to see Jesus! And I will shout it from the rooftops.

If you want to be careful with your words, go ahead. I'd rather make sure I warn everyone I can. I don't care if I am shamed about this. It's too important.


Not sure what you're not understanding. I'm a very clear communicator. I never said that you shouldn't tell people what you think. But if a Christian tells people, especially nonbelievers, that Christ WILL come in less than seven years from now, they are unwise (unless God CLEARLY spoke to them). We don't have the data for that kind of bold statement. If a person says this and it doesn't come to pass, they are a false prophet, not simply a "fool for Jesus," as you lightly put it. We don't need more false prophets.
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Postby Sue-M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:32 pm

smackbucket wrote:
Sue-M wrote:Why can't people just say what they think? I don't care, if I am wrong, I will be a fool for Jesus.

I have actually been telling fellow Christians that I know or Christians that I meet that the time is very short. I don't say specifically that we are in the 70th week, because, it's odd for me to say that. I just say that I believe we have only a few years left before we see the AOD. People need to know that we are close. That's why Jesus told us to watch. That's why Jesus told us things to look for. So, that we would know that we are close. It's exciting. I can't wait to see Jesus! And I will shout it from the rooftops.

If you want to be careful with your words, go ahead. I'd rather make sure I warn everyone I can. I don't care if I am shamed about this. It's too important.


Not sure what you're not understanding. I'm a very clear communicator. I never said that you shouldn't tell people what you think. But if a Christian tells people, especially nonbelievers, that Christ WILL come in less than seven years from now, they are unwise (unless God CLEARLY spoke to them). We don't have the data for that kind of bold statement. If a person says this and it doesn't come to pass, they are a false prophet, not simply a "fool for Jesus," as you lightly put it. We don't need more false prophets.


Yeah, because the rapture hasn't happened.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:36 pm

So you're saying it's okay to tell people that Christ will return in less than seven years even if it doesn't happen?
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midst

Postby shorttribber on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:43 pm

Hi smackbucket---------------I believe Jesus fulfilled the first 3.5 years of Dan 70th week @ His ministry--------we are now in "THE MIDST" a 2000 year approx. "MIDST" of that final week-----------I believe there remains only 3.5 years (LAST HALF) of the 70th week to be fulfilled-----along with 45 more days of Gods wrath (ref. Dan.12 last couple verses).----------------------------blessings :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: midst

Postby smackbucket on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:47 pm

shorttribber wrote:Hi smackbucket---------------I believe Jesus fulfilled the first 3.5 years of Dan 70th week @ His ministry--------we are now in "THE MIDST" a 2000 year approx. "MIDST" of that final week-----------I believe there remains only 3.5 years (LAST HALF) of the 70th week to be fulfilled-----along with 45 more days of Gods wrath (ref. Dan.12 last couple verses).----------------------------blessings :banana:



Ah! I should have figured that out, but I couldn't wrap my brain around what you were trying to say. Thanks.
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Postby Sue-M on Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:56 pm

Things are happening that make me believe that we are very close. Isreal has the plans ready to build the 3rd Temple. They have the instruments ready. They have identified the line of the priests who were authorized by God to work in the Temple. Do you realize that once the Temple is built and they start sacrificing.....do you realize how close we are?

Do you realize that the EU is right now planning for the mark of the beast? They are getting all the countries (that will "obey" as J/S says) to get the data collected from all their citizens. Everything is lining up.

Isreal became a nation in 1948. Anyone who was born in 1948 is right now 59 years old. What is the average life span, 70? So, that means at most 10 years. But, if you just look around at what is going on. They are setting everything up (meaning national ID cards, etc) to begin in 2 years. As soon as Israel makes an agreement for the temple, they will begin to build. Today, how long does it take to build a building, a couple of months.

I am warning people (Christians) because what we have to be looking for is the mark of the beast. We have to be ready for that. That could happen within one year or 3 years. But, the fact that in January 2007, JS confirmed a covent with Israel and others. Even though they haven't come to a solid agreement. It doesn't matter, scripture doesn't say they will come to a solid agreement. It says, they only need to confirm the covenant. It could be this one from January 2007 or another one that we won't even hear about.

There is just too much happening at once. I know we are very close. And you know what, most Christians that I talk to know that we are very close also. I have never ever had one person (Christian) tell me that I am a false prophet for saying that we would be 1-2 or even 3 years away from the Abomindation that causes Desolation. I have never had one Christians even suggest that I was acting like a prophet for saying this. It seems that everyone is in agreement.

Now, if Christians don't want to come out and say, we are in the 70th week. I would ask why? After coming here for so long and seeing what is going on in the world. Why fear saying that? Because without a doubt in my mind if we are not in the 70th week we are on the brink of it. And I think things are already too far into planning for us to have 7 years left.

Don't let a "rapture" belief keep you from being prepared.
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Postby smackbucket on Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:21 am

Isreal became a nation in 1948. Anyone who was born in 1948 is right now 59 years old. What is the average life span, 70? So, that means at most 10 years.


You need to reread my response to this claim you're making.

The fig tree in Matt. 24:32 is not a symbolic message speaking of the Jews obtaining Israel. It is simply a parable, just as Jesus said it was:

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree.."

It's a general statement about ALL trees, and the fact that when they put forth leaves, obviously summer is near. Similarly, when we see the things Jesus teaches of in Matt 24 we will know He is near. Luke proves that He truly is speaking of trees in general and not Israel.

"Behold the fig tree and ALL the trees..." Luke 21:29

Please show me in Scripture where Israel becoming a nation means that that generation will see Christ's return.


Don't let a "rapture" belief keep you from being prepared.


I have no doubt that if it goes down in my lifetime I will not avoid the reign of the Antichrist. Don't let your assumptions keep you from understanding what wisdom is.

I'm not sure how a person can argue my point. IF you tell people that it is a proven FACT that the abomination will take place within 2 or 3 years and that Christ WILL return within 7 you are making a prediction that you claim is based on the word of God. And IF it doesn't happen as you claim it will, you are false. AND you become a contributor and give a valid reason to those that say, "Where is the promise of His coming?"

I'm not being harsh with you, I'm pointing out the obvious reasons why you should be cautious about the way you approach this subject. When the SPECULATIONS that you have made ACTUALLY happen, then we may proceed to warn the world that it's TRULY upon us.

Listen to what you've said:

Isreal has the plans ready to build the 3rd Temple.


Israel has had plans for that for many many years.

Do you realize that once the Temple is built and they start sacrificing...


Yes, I do. ONCE it happens, but it hasn't happened, and it is contingent upon there being a temple structure, that, once again, has not taken place yet.

the EU is right now planning for the mark of the beast?


This has two problems. They are planning, meaning it hasn't happened yet, and plans can take decades. Plus, this is based on the ASSUMPTION that it is a FACT that this is THE mark of the beast. We don't know this yet.

JS confirmed a covent with Israel and others


It's not a covenant, as of yet, that has accomplished anything that the scripture says must be accomplished by the covenant. It MAY be the covenant, but until we have genuine verification we cannot know for sure.

Sue, if you are telling people that it's a fact, you are even going against the ways of good ol' Herb. I've read his stuff off and on for a year or so, and he never said such things like you are saying. He was watching intently, but he was not sounding the alarm that it was time to proclaim to the world that it is truly upon us.
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Postby carpentersdaughter on Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:52 am

Question:

What is the difference between someone who "Comes in the name of the Lord, and say thus sayeth the Lord?"

From

Someone who has a strong belief that something is going to happen or is happening?

Do each of these constitute a false prophet?

As far as being in the seventieth week, I don't have a clue. Certain other things would have to happen before I can believe that.

I believe all the pieces of the puzzle are in front of us and we can see a piture, but the picture has not been conected together to make that perfect or complete picture. Make any sense?
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in the later times some will abondon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
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Postby smackbucket on Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:58 am

carpentersdaughter wrote:Question:

What is the difference between someone who "Comes in the name of the Lord, and say thus sayeth the Lord?"

From

Someone who has a strong belief that something is going to happen or is happening?

Do each of these constitute a false prophet?


No. And your second example you gave I have said is fine, and I have absolutely no problem with it. We all have strong beliefs about something. That's a part of being human. It is the first example that you mentioned that I am speaking about. BUT if a follower of Christ is saying, "The things that are happening now ARE what God has said. He IS coming back within 7 years," well, this is VERY closely related to saying, "Thus says the Lord." It's a little too closely related so that any mature believer should not want to be linked to it. After all, the "Thus says the Lord" approach is very clearly spelled out by God in the old testament. Deutronomy18:20-22 makes it clear that God viewed it as a death penalty violation if one predicted and it didn't come to pass.

As far as being in the seventieth week, I don't have a clue. Certain other things would have to happen before I can believe that.

I believe all the pieces of the puzzle are in front of us and we can see a piture, but the picture has not been conected together to make that perfect or complete picture. Make any sense?


YES! And I am with you 100%.
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Postby Sue-M on Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:50 pm

smackbucket wrote:

Isreal became a nation in 1948. Anyone who was born in 1948 is right now 59 years old. What is the average life span, 70? So, that means at most 10 years.


You need to reread my response to this claim you're making.

The fig tree in Matt. 24:32 is not a symbolic message speaking of the Jews obtaining Israel. It is simply a parable, just as Jesus said it was:


Simply a parable! God help you, smallbucket. Why do you even bother to believe that Jesus died for our sins? Do you believe the parable of the seeds? Or maybe that is just a story about seeds? Maybe, Jesus was just telling us how to plant a garden?

In Mark 11:13 Jesus shook the fig tree and said that it would die. This symbolizes that Israel has been blinded. In fact, not only does this speak about Israel, but, specifically, the temple. Read the scripture. But, to you, it probably means that your God kills trees that He doesn't like.

In Jeremiah 24, God specifically tells us that figs are referring to Israel. Read this.

Also read Hosea 9:10.

In Matthew 24:23, we know that Jesus was speaking again, not only about Israel but the Temple. First of all, in Matthew 24:1, Jesus is pointing to the Temple (explaining about it's destruction) while He is speaking. Also, when Jesus was explaining all the things which would happen in the end times, they sat on the mount of Olives which overlooks the Temple Mount of today. At the end of what Jesus told us about what would happen, He specifically stated the parable about the fig tree.

Now if you still wish to believe that it was just a story about trees, then you should read these scriptures, Luke 12:54-56. This is a very good scripture.

I have nothing else to say to you. I will think what I will think about you. And I will continue to have great joy at the SOON coming of my Lord! You can keep looking for the rapture.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby Arfur on Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:30 pm

Hi,

I could agree and disagree with some of the aforesaid statements but I am sure that we can all agree that the time is short until believers are delivered up by all nations including that of Israel when the saints do not go along with their national plans--

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

We can also agree that the time is reasonable short as we get deeper and deeper into this--

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation (race) shall rise against nation,(race) and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These things precede the delivering up of the saints and right now Africa is flooding.

Disease and famine, both of which can be caused by floods and droughts, will spread through the poor of all nations by which it will not be kept from spreading to the rich, unless-- think about that.

Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.?

Look at Darfur for an example.


Arfur.
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Postby smackbucket on Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:18 pm

Sue-M wrote:Simply a parable! God help you, smallbucket. Why do you even bother to believe that Jesus died for our sins? Do you believe the parable of the seeds? Or maybe that is just a story about seeds? Maybe, Jesus was just telling us how to plant a garden?


Thanks for the sarcasm and rudeness, but you have a misunderstanding of parables. In the parable of the seeds Jesus actually teaches what the meaning of the parable is by explaining what the seeds are, what the soil represents and what the outcome is of each. And you, nor would anyone, ever say it meant anything else or that there was some hidden meaning.

The parable of the fig tree in Matt 24 and Luke 21 is exactly the same. Jesus gives the short parable and then, just as He did with the parable of the seeds, He explains what it means. When the TREES (plural) grow leaves we know that summer is near. Explanation? Just like the trees indicating summer is near, the end times signs, abomination, etc, indicate that He is near. You won't add to scripture in the parable of the seeds, so why would we add to scripture with this parable?

You've ignored the Luke passage that speaks of "all the trees." Does that mean when all the lost nations become nations again Christ will come back in that generation? Of course not, but YOU would have to say that it does in order to be scripturally consistent. But for some reason you only seem to get agitated when scripture is explained in a way that contradicts what you want to believe. I don't think we can get anywhere. I'm starting to wonder if you're even reading the things that I write. You're certainly not giving it much thought.

Sue-M wrote:In Mark 11:13 Jesus shook the fig tree and said that it would die. This symbolizes that Israel has been blinded. In fact, not only does this speak about Israel, but, specifically, the temple. Read the scripture. But, to you, it probably means that your God kills trees that He doesn't like.


Again, Jesus gives the answer to the parable, and tells us what He meant without mincing words or adding a Hal Lindsey type of deep meaning that is not indicated. Please don't poop out on me now! Please keep reading! :hehe:

Mark 11:20-24
As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. Being reminded, Peter said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered."

And Jesus answered saying to them, "HAVE FAITH IN GOD. Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, BELIEVE that you have received them, AND THEY WILL BE GRANTED TO YOU.

Jesus had faith and his request was granted. It showed the disciples that faith can move mountains. That is the answer to the parable and Jesus PLAINLY explained it. Faith can move mountains! But this time you've completely ignored the answer to the parable that Jesus gave and created another Israel meaning. Is this because of your desire to prove that Christ HAS to come back in this generation?

Sue-M wrote:In Jeremiah 24, God specifically tells us that figs are referring to Israel. Read this.


Sure. In THIS passage. Does that automatically mean that all references to figs are references to Israel? If so, and to be consistent, you must also say that that all references to seeds are references to the word of God as it is in the Matthew 13 parable. This doesn't add up.

Sue-M wrote:Now if you still wish to believe that it was just a story about trees, then you should read these scriptures, Luke 12:54-56. This is a very good scripture.


You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time? (Luke 12:56)


Now you're calling me a hypocrite. Nice. Sorry I've tried, with the utmost patience by the way, to help those that have been misled by teachers that attempt to add to and to create hidden, secret meaning to God's word.

Sue-M wrote:I will think what I will think about you.


Sorry you don't like it when someone disagrees with you and plainly explains scripture in an attempt to help you understand. I feel as if I couldn't have been more gracious in my communication with you.
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Postby Arfur on Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:22 am

Smackbucket,

I agree with you.


The return of Jews to the land of Israel now is mans idea.

The Israel of God believes God. The Jews do not.

The arguement given is that they will believe.

However the bible shows that Christ gathers believers not unbelievers and it occurs at and after His return and not before.--

Eze 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

These constructions of scripture which teach that the Jews will build a temple and that the anti-christ will defile it , is falsehood.

God does not use unbelievers to build anything Holy that it could be defiled.

Act 7:47 But Solomon built him a house.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The only Holy Temple that the anti-christ can defile is the NT churches and the defiled of them are in league with the anti-christ Jew nation today.

So the Godless even now trample the streets of Jerusalem and they will continue to do so until Christ returns.--

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Arfur.
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Postby smackbucket on Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:29 am

Arfur,

Maybe you believe what I wrote above, but we do not agree on the final outcome. I believe that temple will be literal, and I have no doubt that God will again chose a remnant of Israel for Himself.

Dave
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Postby Arfur on Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:58 pm

smackbucket wrote:Arfur,

Maybe you believe what I wrote above, but we do not agree on the final outcome. I believe that temple will be literal, and I have no doubt that God will again chose a remnant of Israel for Himself.

Dave


Well, that would be the natural reading of it, and if the natural reading of it is sufficient to understand the truth of it then this scripture is a lie--

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Arfur.
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Postby smackbucket on Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:48 pm

So the clear words of the scripture are never to interpreted for what they literally say? And if a person sees it for what it literally says they must not have the spirit and therefore cannot discern the REAL meaning?
:banghead:
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Postby Arfur on Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:02 pm

smackbucket wrote:So the clear words of the scripture are never to interpreted for what they literally say? And if a person sees it for what it literally says they must not have the spirit and therefore cannot discern the REAL meaning?
:banghead:


No, I did not suggest that.

I suggested that understanding the scriptures as to their intended meaning by God that He wants us to understand from them requires more than a literal meaning of them which only the Holy Spirit can give.

There are four levels of understanding that I know of which all accept the accurate literal readings of the words without changing them, but many of the things written in the bible, especially in prophecy, are not interpreted by the writers of them, for they are given in symbols whose meanings are discovered by the reader throughout the whole of the bible in seeking the truth of them with guidance and revealings from the Holy Spirit as we submit our lives to His will.

The submission of our lives to Gods will, is the key to being given the true understandings of the scriptures.

For example , when people are constantly rude to you, then you know that their understandings will also be suspect, and indeed the character of a person is in harmony with their understandings , but not always exactly so because correct understandings follow repentance and that takes time.

Jesus said--

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Arfur.
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Postby smackbucket on Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:12 pm

AHH! That sounds better. Thanks for clarifying, because the manner in which you wrote the first message sounded MUCH different.
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Postby savedbygrace on Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Sue M wrote:smallbucket


Thats really funny.... I just had to laugh.... but Sue M, really, its not nice to make fun of people's user id.... was that a typo or was it intentional I'd like to know?


smackbucket wrote:It's not a covenant, as of yet, that has accomplished anything that the scripture says must be accomplished by the covenant. It MAY be the covenant, but until we have genuine verification we cannot know for sure.

Sue, if you are telling people that it's a fact, you are even going against the ways of good ol' Herb. I've read his stuff off and on for a year or so, and he never said such things like you are saying. He was watching intently, but he was not sounding the alarm that it was time to proclaim to the world that it is truly upon us.


Dave, concerning your cautious view of the 70th week beginning or not, I agree with your approach. We have numerous passages of scripture that describe events at the midpoint and the ending of the 70th week, however the scriptures do not actually give concrete signs of when the 70th week actually begin.

The adventist movement of the 1800s would have their say about it from a historicist viewpoint too!

This is a glimpse of what they believed: in Mt. 24:15-23 each piece of the prophecy is connected by the word "then". This is easily viewed in the KJV. Those who were involved in the Second Advent Movement in the 1800's involved themselves with prophecy daily. They had concluded that Jesus would return sometime in the 1800's.

The historicists within the Adventist movement viewed the "then" as meaning "after", or "the next in line." Here is the way it comes out from their historical perspective:

First the abomination of desolation (which they place at 70 AD) on the Jewish temple is mentioned. "Then" the great tribulation on the church (538-1798 or 1260 years). The "elect" mentioned are better applied to the church than Israel. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" indicated to them not the beginning of the second advent but the evidence or sign that the great tribulation was over. So the celestial signs designated this.

The "darkness of the sun and moon" was the dark day of New England in 1780, which they relate to the celestial signs in Matthew 24. However, the date of 1780 is not the full length of the 1260 (symbolic) years which would have been 1798. They explained this with "the shortening of those days for the sake of the elect."

In 1773 the Pope drew up a papal bull that cut short the inquisition and the resulting tribulation on Christians. This was 7 years short of the "dark day". The 7 years were held to be the period of imprisonment that were needed to finish up the judicial cases of those who were waiting to be tried.

The scenario goes on further to include the sign of the falling of stars which was in 1833. Encyclopedias list this as the greatest star fall on record. People thought that the Judgment had come and that it was the end. Modern astronomic recording begins with this 1833 event. To the Adventists, these two signs (dark day, falling of stars) were signs of the ending of the great tribulation, not the parousia or coming of the Lord.

So these were some of the reasons that the Adventist Movement regarded the second advent as something that would happen in the 1800's. They have some compelling points, but here is the problem with this historicist view: The word "then" in Greek actually means "at the same time." This is shown in the NIV at verse 23 "at that time." The Arndt and Gingrich Greek Lexicon shows this.

And if "then" links the abomination of desolation with the great distress or great tribulation, the Adventist application cannot be applied, because nearly two thousand years have passed since the destruction of the temple and the abomination of desolation of 70ad.


So in summary, a person must be very careful when making statements about the 70th week and the second advent of Christ, since many have had it 'all figured out' before, but Jesus has not arrived yet!

In my own opinion, I tend to see there are multiple application or fulfillments of the AoD, the antichrist, and the great tribulation prophecies in the Olivet discourse chapters, the ones that have already happened are a foreshadow of the ultimate and future scenario to come!

GBU,
Jake
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Postby smackbucket on Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:25 pm

Jake,

Smallbucket? That IS funny! I hadn't noticed that. I'm thinking it was intentional because Sue-M didn't seem too fond of me. :grin:
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Postby watch2000 on Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:31 am

Arfur wrote:Eze 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

These constructions of scripture which teach that the Jews will build a temple and that the anti-christ will defile it , is falsehood.

God does not use unbelievers to build anything Holy that it could be defiled.


Who says unholy or unclean people will build the temple? Who built the second temple? and wasn't it defiled and destroyed.
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Postby watch2000 on Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:48 am

Arfur wrote:
smackbucket wrote:Arfur,

Maybe you believe what I wrote above, but we do not agree on the final outcome. I believe that temple will be literal, and I have no doubt that God will again chose a remnant of Israel for Himself.

Dave


Well, that would be the natural reading of it, and if the natural reading of it is sufficient to understand the truth of it then this scripture is a lie--

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Arfur.



Arfur,

Quote the whole scripture,

1cor1
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.



1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



The things of God are not foolish to anybody on this board. The only hidden scripture are parables(which Jesus says believers will understand).




MATT 13

11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
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Postby Sue-M on Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:03 pm

Smackbucket, I am sorry that I called you "small" bucket. I didn't do it on purpose. I honestly saw "small" when I looked at your name. But, to tell you the truth. I really don't like calling someone "smack". Why in the world would you name yourself that?

I got angry at you because you have no right to tell anyone what you think they can say and can't say. For all you know, we might be in the 70th week.

You have no right to tell anyone what they should be saying.

Also, I don't like how you have spoken about God's Word as merely "parables". If these are merely parables to you, then do you know what that means? Jesus said that He spoke in parables so that those that were to be saved would understand and those that are perishing would not understand. They are not merely parables.

I don't really want to discuss this with you because whenever anyone talks about God's Word that way, it gets me very angry. And I don't want to be angry.

So, just have a nice day. And, again, I didn't mean to call you by the wrong name. Sorry about that.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Postby Tevye on Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:22 pm

You know the strange thing is that
I quickly looked and thought
it said "small" too,
at first glance.
Odd how that is.
Must mean I need new glasses.


No offense Dave.
It's just after a day
of screenshot to the eyes
one gets googly eyed.
:mrgreen:

By the way,
for an earlier post... (not Dave's post)
Jesus could not have fulfilled
the first 3 and 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel
because he was cut off at the end of the 69th week.

Know and understand this:
From the issuing of the decree
to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes,
there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.'
It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

After the sixty-two 'sevens,'
the Anointed One will be cut off (crucified)
and will have nothing.

Daniel 9


Then He will come (the Anointed One)
sometime after the middle of the 70th week
and cut it off. (or short that is)
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Postby smackbucket on Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:48 pm

Why I called myself smackbucket: Every couple of years I decide I want to spend a little time on a board to discuss and debate. I always use my first and last name because I never liked the thought of hiding behind a fake identity. I felt that if my name was there I would be sure to keep myself in check and not treat people with disrespect like I saw so many people doing as if they would have the guts to speak to people in real life like that.

But this time, after being in the the forefront (no matter how VERY small that forefront was) for a bit because of my book I decided it would be great to have a little anonymity for a fun change.

So when the board asked me for a name I had never given it one ounce of thought before. Buckethead was the first thing that came to mind! I thought that made me sound pretty dumb, but then for some reason smackbucket jumped in my head. I liked it. It means absolutely nothing, but it kind of has a nice ring to it. :grin:
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Postby smackbucket on Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:56 pm

Sue-M wrote:Smackbucket, I am sorry that I called you "small" bucket. I didn't do it on purpose. I honestly saw "small" when I looked at your name. But, to tell you the truth. I really don't like calling someone "smack". Why in the world would you name yourself that?

I got angry at you because you have no right to tell anyone what you think they can say and can't say. For all you know, we might be in the 70th week.

You have no right to tell anyone what they should be saying.

Also, I don't like how you have spoken about God's Word as merely "parables". If these are merely parables to you, then do you know what that means? Jesus said that He spoke in parables so that those that were to be saved would understand and those that are perishing would not understand. They are not merely parables.

I don't really want to discuss this with you because whenever anyone talks about God's Word that way, it gets me very angry. And I don't want to be angry.

So, just have a nice day. And, again, I didn't mean to call you by the wrong name. Sorry about that.



I'm not going to explain myself concerning how you interpret "merely" because you've yet to hear anything else I've said no matter how clearly I've articulated it, so I doubt one more try will really do any good. Plus, I think other viewers of this thread have been able to judge for themselves concerning what the wise thing to do is.

This wasn't a fun thread like some are, but I hope some good was accomplished and that somebody got something out of it. Sorry you feel like you feel during this, Sue, but I wouldn't change a word of what I've said.

Dave
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Postby brandon on Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:43 am

The return of Jews to the land of Israel now is mans idea.

The Israel of God believes God. The Jews do not.

The arguement given is that they will believe.

However the bible shows that Christ gathers believers not unbelievers and it occurs at and after His return and not before.--

Eze 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

These constructions of scripture which teach that the Jews will build a temple and that the anti-christ will defile it , is falsehood.

God does not use unbelievers to build anything Holy that it could be defiled.


Wait, so are you denying the miraculous history of the Jewish people over the last 2,000 years? Every major Satan-empowered empire has tried to wipe out the Jews and in the mystery of God they are still here.

And now, after all this time, they now are in their biblical homeland. Come on now, not every promise made to physical Israel just got spiritualized when Christ got a new bride that included Gentiles. And you know what? His plan isn't finished yet with them. For the first time since their "partial hardening" Jews are coming to Christ all over the world, and the number are increasing.

Don't forget that there are natural and spiritual readings of all Scripture. It means what it says, but as we press into the things of Christ, a passage of Scripture gains greater meaning because the Holy Spirit is able to show us more.

1I say then, God has not (A)rejected His people, has He? (B)May it never be! For (C)I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God (D)has not rejected His people whom He (E)foreknew (F)Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3"Lord, (G)THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."

4But what is the divine response to him? "(H)I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."

5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time (I)a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

6But (J)if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7What then? What (K)Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were (L)hardened;

8just as it is written,
"(M)GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

9And David says,
"(N)LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10"(O)LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER."

11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? (Q)May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (Do not be conceited, but fear;

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

23And they also, (AK)if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"(AQ)THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"(AR)THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
(AS)WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?

36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.


I know, I didn't want to assault you with scripture, but it's clear that God still has a plan of redemption for physical Israel that have Abraham's blood in their veins.

Now, how is it possible for the "third temple" to be defiled if the third temple is entirely spiritual? The spiritual body of Christ exists beyond time, space, and impurity, but the physical manifestation of it can be impacted by these things. And how can this be rectified with the passages in Daniel that clearly spell out there animal sacrifices will be stopped at the Abomination of Desolation?
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Postby carpentersdaughter on Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:27 pm

The God of Israel made a PROMISE to them. If His promises are broke, how can we be sure he won't break His to US?

Looks what happening in the Body Of Christ today, idoltry in the form of placing objects in their mind to pray too God....Forbid! Should God release His Promises to us because of what is happening in the Church?

Praise God, He is faithfull to His promises to Israel and His Church.
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in the later times some will abondon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
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Postby smackbucket on Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:38 pm

It looks like this thread is now changing to another topic. Imagine that!

Only IF the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done. Jer. 31:37

To apply Christians to the is passage is torturing the text. Yes, I understand that we are Abraham's descendants by faith, but...

The last portion of this passage says, "because of all they have done."

The "they" is clearly literal and physical nation Israel because that is who is being spoken to and about. Because of this it seems impossible to claim that the descendants being spoken of is us. If it were, the verse would be saying this:

"Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the CHRISTIANS because of all the JEWS have done."

Why would He reject ANY Christian for what Jews have done? This makes no sense! Problem solved. :banana:

Dave
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Postby Tevye on Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:09 pm

smackbucket wrote:It looks like this thread is now changing to another topic. Imagine that!


FP-Attention Deficit Disorder or (FPADD)

:wink: :grin:

For some maybe (FPADHD)?
That would be in the FP-addict thread.

:mrgreen:
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Postby savedbygrace on Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:51 pm

smackbucket wrote:torturing the text


this is hilarious.... you have a funny way of putting it... I guess that is in line with your user id!

GBU,
Jake
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Postby Arfur on Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:23 pm

Brandon

Wait, so are you denying the miraculous history of the Jewish people over the last 2,000 years? Every major Satan-empowered empire has tried to wipe out the Jews and in the mystery of God they are still here.


So are the descendants of the early Church--

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Act 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And now, after all this time, they now are in their biblical homeland. Come on now, not every promise made to physical Israel just got spiritualized when Christ got a new bride that included Gentiles. And you know what? His plan isn't finished yet with them. For the first time since their "partial hardening" Jews are coming to Christ all over the world, and the number are increasing.


Then they are becoming children of God through faith in Christ. I refer you to the scripture again, and it has been so always--

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."


Don't forget that there are natural and spiritual readings of all Scripture. It means what it says, but as we press into the things of Christ, a passage of Scripture gains greater meaning because the Holy Spirit is able to show us more.


The natural promises to Abraham involved physical circumcision, Gen,17:10) natural killings by them to possess a natural land with a natural temple, all of which is now obsolete--

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



I know, I didn't want to assault you with scripture, but it's clear that God still has a plan of redemption for physical Israel that have Abraham's blood in their veins.


Yes, they are children of Zion along with people of faith from all nations.

Now, how is it possible for the "third temple" to be defiled if the third temple is entirely spiritual? The spiritual body of Christ exists beyond time, space, and impurity, but the physical manifestation of it can be impacted by these things. And how can this be rectified with the passages in Daniel that clearly spell out there animal sacrifices will be stopped at the Abomination of Desolation?


If you examine the "daily" of dan.ch 12 where the word sacrifice is added by translaters then you will see that it is not the same as the blood sacrifices of Dan 9:27 which Christ did away with by the sacrifice of Himself.

The daily (light and sheep Mat.5 Rom 8) refers to the churches in the world which were begun by the elect who are the church which is His body. (Col)

The defilement of the temple in the future or in our time is that of the sanctuaries of God which are the churches—

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars (evangelicals Dan 12)to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary (the churches) was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And a host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression (of the churches), and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spoke, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary (the churches)be cleansed.----

Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.

God has never been a sanctuary among the nations for unbelievers, but for believers in Christ He has been--

Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.


The real gathering to come is that of the believers only and not without any from all nations who believe--

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Eze 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for all people.
Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

The NT gives all of the correct realisations of the prophecies of the OT.


God has one King, one Bride (wife) one Throne, one people.(1 Pet.ch.2.)

The only differences in the future established Kingdom of God on earth among Gods people are that of the resurrected and the mortal, and the mortals are the children of the immortal, their mother, who are all members of the Heavenly City of Zion of the new and only covenant. (Heb.8 Isaiah 31.)

Read Isaiah ch 49. Rev.7.


Israel of the middle east is a work of the flesh, by the flesh through the flesh with the flesh destroying the flesh loving the flesh serving the flesh gaining the flesh perishing with the flesh.--

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Christians need to discern the differences.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


Arfur.
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Postby brandon on Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:44 am

Arfur,

Since we Christians are the temple, how can our "sanctuary" be defiled by the Gentiles? When you say "church" the manner in which you use it seems to point to a physical congregation in a physical meeting place. The Church does not exist in time and space, but only spirit. However, the manifestation of the local church cannot be defiled since there is no physical building or temple in which to defile.

Certainly martyrdom or physical torture are not defilement, since the only way to defile a spiritual thing is by a work of sin.

The church (or congregation) is simply the believers who live in a local town or city. It cannot be divided by doctrinal barriers or creedal statements. It has no physical building. It may meet in a building, or several buildings, or houses, but it is impossible to stop the daily of a spiritual organism.

The Jews cannot be justified, nor will God take them back through animal sacrifices. They long for the setting up of a third temple that will mean nothing but a realization that they must go to Christ. No one is saying that the Jews will be justified, but the Bible is clear that He will redeem the remnant of physical Israel to Himself at the end, when they "mourn over whom they have pierced."

The Jews have missed the point for 3,000 years now, but God has preserved the physical offspring of Abraham to prove how great a God He really is. They've wandered the nations for almost 2,000 years, and then all of the sudden they were given a physical nation again? They are the most despised race on earth, scattered about the whole world, and yet they have survived the most evil men to walk the earth. Brother, the Jews are preserved in the mystery of God so that He can bring the remnant into the fold of spiritual Israel.

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,
HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,
WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;


They are beloved for the sake of their fathers, even though they are enemies of the gospel. God has not forgotten the first people He chose, and He will redeem them at the end. This is undeniable.

The twelve apostles are going to sit over and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. There are no twelve tribes of Christians, are there?

The Jews, for the entirety of their history, have often forgotten that they were supposed to be a blessing to all the nations, and that salvation would come to the world through the Jews. The New Testament excitedly reveals this wonderful mystery of Christ that anyone, regardless of race, that comes to Christ in repentance and faith will be saved.

Physical Israel will come to Christ, at the end.
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Postby carpentersdaughter on Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:01 am

Thank you brandon for saying what I couldn't. :oops:
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in the later times some will abondon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
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