Mystery Babylon? Who, or What is it?

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Mystery Babylon? Who, or What is it?

Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:40 am

Yes, What is Mystery Babylon?
(Rev 14:6-8, 17:1-18:24)

Looking4aCity started a thread about Mystery Babylon being Jerusalem. I did not want to hijack that thread, so I have taken the time to start another.

I’ve been wanting to share this with others for a while, but until know was not able to put it together. I apologize that this is close to eight thousand words long, but sometimes, something cannot be presented in only a few words.

Whether or not you will agree with me, I think you will find reading this quite interesting. If you would like to read more of the same, I will be glad to recommend a number of recently written books which run along the same lines.

You and copy, cut and paste if you like.

Let’s consider the The ten horns of Rev. 17:16-17 as being a future Muslim superpower in the world. Surely, as the unchallenged superpower in the world, America would never allow a worldwide Islamic kingdom. Or could it?

The Bible says the world will look at the whole situation as nothing short of incredible. They will be stunned! The situation described in Revelation is amazing and surreal. The Bible states, “... the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast” (Rev. 13:3). It is amazing but not difficult to imagine radical Muslims, perhaps even a suicide bomber with a suitcase size nuclear bomb, blowing up a large and important city. As one Al-Qaeda spokesman has stated, “To achieve a level playing field will take about 4 million dead Americans.” Once nuclear weapons are in terrorist hands, what could stop them from taking twenty-five or so bombs and strategically planting them in cities around the world? If the world refuses Sharia law, couldn’t they threaten to dispose of those cities one at a time who refused? It would be the ultimate blackmail.

Would they do such a bloodthirsty thing? Not only would they, but the Koran commands they use everything at their disposal to Fight for the cause of Allah. Could such a thing happen? Many experts now say it’s not a question of if, just a question of when they will obtain weapons of mass destruction. Aware of the grave nature of the threat. President Bush has stated we are at war with those who want to bring on another period of the Dark ages. He has frequently stated that we won’t give in to the blackmail of terrorism. Yet, what world leader would be willing to risk the systematic destruction of the world’s cities? Much of the struggle we witness today is a frantic attempt to prevent terrorists from ever getting to a place where they could do such things.

The terrorists themselves have declared that the greatest weakness of the West is that we love life, whereas they, the Islamists, love death. However, if the West refuses to give in to Islamists with large quantities of nuclear weapons, the only thing the West would guarantee is wholesale destruction and death of all but a smattering of mankind.

The Bible tells us that politicians and the world will finally conclude, “Who is able to wage war with him?” (Rev. 13:4). Yes, Who is able to wage war with these terrorist fighters worldwide, who wage war as they do?

After seeing the establishment of the kingdom of the Beast and hearing a description of what it will look like, John sees the 144,000, perhaps some of the first martyrs from the Beast, in heaven worshipping. But we also see another powerful picture. We see an angel flying in mid-heaven. He has an “eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters” (Rev. 14:6-7).

With the Beast having just established his kingdom and begun his execution program, we see an angel of God flying in mid-heaven with a message for the world’s inhabitants. This is God’s final warning to a world that has already had the gospel of salvation preached to it.

Literal angels physically announced to shepherds jesus’ first coming to earth. That was a relatively humble announcement to humble people for his first humble coming. That coming brought salvation. However, his next coming will bring judgment on the whole earth and “salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him” (Heb. 9:28). When, Jesus comes a second time “every eye shall see Him. Revelation suggests that through these angelic announcements many ears will also be forewarned of the coming judgment.

Now, Babylon Falls... Stay with me here...
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:43 am

A second angel follows the first with another disturbing an-nouncement for earth dwellers, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of immorality” (Rev. 14:8).

Notice that Babylon falls right after this heavenly warning to worship God. Chronologically Babylon’s destruction occurs with this angelic announcement. However, the detailed description of that destruction isn’t given until Revelation 17 and 18 to which we shall now consider.

Who is this Babylon?

An angel who had just announced one of the seven bowls of judgment in Revelation 16 calls John aside to show him the specific judgment that will befall “the great harlot who sits on many waters.... (Rev. 17:l). What do we know about that Babylon from the Scriptures? Is there a city in America with overwhelming similarities to the Biblical Babylon of Revelation?

She is a City of Harlotry

Peter makes an interesting remark in the closing of his first epistle saying, “She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings ...” ( I Pet. 5:13). There are some important things to see here. First of all, Peter mentions Babylon as an actual location and city. However, the original Babylon did not exist in Peter’s day. Thus, this is a real city, but is Babylon in a spiritual sense. It is not literally Babylon, but has simply captured her spirit and role.

In Peter’s day, there was a clearly dominant immoral city of great wealth, world power and luxurious opulence. The city that Peter referred to was in all likelihood, Rome. The worldly spirit of morality and luxury and power that had resided in Babylon now resounded from that great city, the center of the Roman Empire. It is important to realize that Peter identified Rome as Babylon many hundreds of years before there was ever any connection between the church and state. It seems that Peter saw the spirit of Babylon as essentially of man’s attempt to have dominion over the earth apart from submission to God.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:45 am

What city best embodies this spirit today? What nation has essentially become like an empire in its world wide economic, political and military dominance? What system represented in a nation has attempted to establish man’s dominion over the earth apart from submission to God? There is no other nation in recent years that has so eloquently embodied such secular values and exported them to the world as the United States. Given recent court cases against the pledge of allegiance, even the days of the empty verbiage found on our currency, “In God We Trust,” are numbered.

The “great harlot” of Revelation is just that. In the Bible, harlotry represents immorality. However, it is also a symbolic description of following false gods, even as a harlot takes the place of a legitimate wife. Babylon of Revelation epitomizes both. She represents a lifestyle and way of thinking, a system that tries to be a substitute heaven. She works hard to seduce people (even God’s people) away from love for the Lord Jesus. She tries to convert them into lovers of pleasure and lovers of self (2 Tim. 3:1-4). Paul prophesied to Timothy that this pleasure seeking spirit would be a significant problem in the Church in the last days (2 Tim. 3:5-8). What is this great harlot like?

She is a City of Luxury and Greed

Not surprisingly. Revelation describes a place filled with luxury and greed. We see a city that is fabulously wealthy and fabulously immoral. It is this economic system, focused on materialism and sensuality that will be adopted by the world and become its economic engine. The world economy is tied into her and business people all over the world are becoming fabulously wealthy through her. Quite specifically “the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality” (Rev. 18:3).

Compare this scripture with these modern-day facts. “If it were a nation, Wal-Mart would be China's eighth largest trading partner. America runs gigantic trade deficits in the many billions of dollars with nearly all nations of the world. The trade deficit with China alone was expected to hit $130 billion in 2003. The result is that America is pumping incredible amounts of income into the nations the world.

Meanwhile, the world looks in jealous awe upon the success of the American system and seeks to duplicate it, while at the same time hating its dominance. The United States has a Gross Domestic product in Billions of dollars nearly three times larger than the second largest economy, Japan.- The economy of the entire European Union combined is almost $1,000,000,000,000 (that’s $1 trillion or 1,000 million) less than the United States.” The United States consumes three times more energy than the next closest competitor, China.

She is the Largest City in America

Now let’s ask ourselves which city in America most vividly captures the heart and soul of America in the world’s eyes. The city most closely associated with America in the mind of the people of the world is New York City. It is, by far, the most famous and well known of American cities. The world equates New York City, with the Statue of Liberty at the entrance to her port, as the ultimate symbol of America.
New York City is the largest city in the United States. It is twice as large as any other US city with a population of close to eight million people. It is home to the largest, most wealthy stock exchange in the world. It is home to many of the world’s largest and most powerful corporations and banks. In terms of dollars, this port has generated the greatest amount of trade of any port city in America. In terms of shipping tonnage it is third for the country and number one on the East Coast. It is the number-one port for the importing and exporting of automobiles. And it is the home to more office space than any other city in the entire world.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:48 am

Her Destruction will Economically Devastate the World

At her sudden destruction, the merchants of the world will lie overwhelmed with mourning and weeping. Part of their weeping will be selfish because of the economic disaster they will experience, for "no one buys their cargoes anymore" (Rev. 18:11). The impact of Babylon’s destruction will cause an economic crash of horrific proportions. The unbelievable volume of financial trading and physical trading that goes on in this city of the wealthiest nation in the world means that absolutely no city today, or in the entire history of the world, has ever been more economically and symbolically important. New York City’s sudden obliteration would be like an economic and psychological tsunami slamming into the entire world with an obliterating force of unparalleled proportions.

John describes for us the mourning of “every shipmaster and
every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea” for . . . all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth ...” (Rev. 18:17, 19). They exclaim there has never been a city like the great city. If the greatest generator of wealth the world has ever known was suddenly destroyed; such a reaction as described here would be exactly what one would expect. September 11 was just a small foreshadowing of what awaits.

She has Incredible Cultural Influence for Greed and Immorality over the Whole World

The woman Babylon is described as “sitting on many waters.” What are these waters? John is told by the angel that “the waters which you saw where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues” (Rev. 17:15). This indicates that she will dominate many people in the world and will be a mixture of many different peoples. She is the one “with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality" (Rev. 17:2).

Not only common folk, but also leaders of nations will be seduced by her lustful way of life, epitomized by her extreme sensuality and immorality. Richard Brookheiser, the Senior Editor of the conservative magazine, The National Review, put it this way; “This country grew and grew. Our influence is worldwide. People speak of our hegemony.... Maybe we don't like the sound of it, but I think it is in our DNA. Our founding fathers foresaw our growing influence in the world. Thomas Jefferson, when purchasing the Louisiana Purchase, spoke of expanding an ‘empire of liberty.’ George Washington spoke of America as ‘this rising empire.’”

David Gergen, Director of Public Leadership for Harvard University, summarized the goals of this American Empire when he said, “We want to extend our values of democracy and capitalism.” The problem is that the rest of the world is not always embracing all aspects of Americanism with a smile. They resent certain things about our growing impact on their lives. Most Muslims associate democracy with sex and drunkenness. Radical Muslims see democracy as an enemy of true Islam.

Still, the world is undergoing a cultural transformation. Ac-cording to results from the Pew Global Attitudes Project, “people everywhere also strongly believe that their traditional way of life is getting lost.”

Not surprisingly, the most prominent cultural exporter in the
world is the United States. There is global agreement on the importance of children in foreign countries learning English. Solid majorities in every country surveyed believe that children need to learn English to succeed in the world today. Nine-in-ten Indians (93%) and Chinese (92%) agree ..

Even those people who say they dislike American culture, or say they are concerned about the future of their own culture, believe it is necessary for children to learn English.

In most countries, younger people are much more positive than older ones about the effect of foreign television, music and movies on their families. This signifies that our cultural impact on beliefs is on the upswing with the up-and-coming young of the world.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:50 am

Majorities in most nations blame the erosion of traditional ways on commercialism and consumerism. This of course leads to resentment. There is a widespread sense that the rapidly changing world represents a major threat to people’s traditional way of life. And what culture are these old cultures being replaced with? Clearly it is the American culture, consumerism and immorality. These are byproducts of our notion of democracy and capitalism that we actively promote around the world.

Our modern notions of democracy are increasingly being used to push immoral agendas. Although we ought to oppose vigilante violence against immorality and its participants, the moral and legal trends are disturbing. While writing ABC recently, complaining about the increasingly pro-homosexual message of its TV shows, including The Practice, one viewer was shocked at the response he allegedly received. It read as follows,

How about keeping your nose out of the Bible (which is ONLY a book of stories compiled by MANY different writers hundreds of years ago) and read the Declaration of Independence (what our nation is built on), where it says “All Men are Created equal,” and try treating them that way for a change! Or better yet, try thinking for yourself and stop using an archaic book of stories as your lame crutch for existence. You are a minority in this country and your boycott will not affect us or our freedom of statement.”

One show that debuted in the summer of 2003 on the Bravo channel was called ***** Eye for the Straight Guy. A Los Angeles Times reporter, Lynn Elber, gave it raving reviews. The show tells the story of gay men giving straight men the once over to help them improve their appearances and appeal. She quotes the producer as saying, the “... straight guy, gay guy perspective is at the heart of the show.

We’re trying to break down some walls here. Elber makes only passing reference to the Traditional Values Coalition criticizing it. She also advertises another Bravo show that debuted as a gay-theme series, entitled Boy Meets Boy. Here a gay leading man will choose from fifteen potential mates—with the twist that some are actually heterosexual.

Recently some state governments have begun rewarding homosexual behavior with the same benefits as marriage. Homosexual unions have been given recognition by the state of Vermont and Massachusetts now recognizes gay marriages as having the same validity and rights as heterosexual marriage. Mayors in cities throughout America are issuing gay marriage licenses as the supposed constitutional right of gay marriage is being espoused. Seven more states have lawsuits and laws on the verge of doing the same thing. It seems only a matter of time before homosexual marriage or something approximating it will become the law of the land throughout America.

According to the Pew Global Attitudes Project, a majority of
people in every Western nation, including the United States, believe that homosexuality should be accepted by society. Not surprisingly, Africa and the Islamic nations sharply disagree that homosexuality should be acceptable.

However, immorality is a problem for straights in America as well. According to the 2003 World Almanac, almost one out of ten boys had their first sexual intercourse before age thirteen. About one out of twenty-five girls (4.0%) could say the same. That means that about two students in an average eighth-grade class have had sexual intercourse. I can’t believe there aren’t more.

The numbers jump rapidly once they have finished their first
year of high school. By the end of ninth grade, two out of every five boys (40.5%) and about one out of three girls (29.1%) have had sexual intercourse. By the end of their senior year of high school, the numbers even out. 61.0% of all boys and 60.1% of all girls have committed fornication and engaged in sexual intercourse. In fact, in the twelfth grade, more girls (50.1%) than boys (44.6%) were lively fornicating!

The Bible says “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,... will inherit kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9 ,10). Our blatant snubbing of God-given standards and warnings clearly reveal we are not a moral society. Fortunately, God has given us an opportunity to be forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Many of us can say along with the Corinthians, “Such were some of you (us); but you (we) were washed..." (1 Cor. 6:11). Still our nation is clearly in moral trouble as many not only refuse to turn away from such behavior, but strongly encourage and advocate these practices.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:54 am

Majorities in most nations blame the erosion of traditional ways on commercialism and consumerism. This of course leads to resentment. There is a widespread sense that the rapidly changing world represents a major threat to people’s traditional way of life. And what culture are these old cultures being replaced with? Clearly it is the American culture, consumerism and immorality. These are byproducts of our notion of democracy and capitalism that we actively promote around the world.

Our modern notions of democracy are increasingly being used to push immoral agendas. Although we ought to oppose vigilante violence against immorality and its participants, the moral and legal trends are disturbing. While writing ABC recently, complaining about the increasingly pro-homosexual message of its TV shows, including The Practice, one viewer was shocked at the response he allegedly received. It read as follows,

How about keeping your nose out of the Bible (which is ONLY a book of stories compiled by MANY different writers hundreds of years ago) and read the Declaration of Independence (what our nation is built on), where it says “All Men are Created equal,” and try treating them that way for a change! Or better yet, try thinking for yourself and stop using an archaic book of stories as your lame crutch for existence. You are a minority in this country and your boycott will not affect us or our freedom of statement.”

One show that debuted in the summer of 2003 on the Bravo channel was called ***** Eye for the Straight Guy. A Los Angeles Times reporter, Lynn Elber, gave it raving reviews. The show tells the story of gay men giving straight men the once over to help them improve their appearances and appeal. She quotes the producer as saying, the “... straight guy, gay guy perspective is at the heart of the show.

We’re trying to break down some walls here. Elber makes only passing reference to the Traditional Values Coalition criticizing it. She also advertises another Bravo show that debuted as a gay-theme series, entitled Boy Meets Boy. Here a gay leading man will choose from fifteen potential mates—with the twist that some are actually heterosexual.

Recently some state governments have begun rewarding homosexual behavior with the same benefits as marriage. Homosexual unions have been given recognition by the state of Vermont and Massachusetts now recognizes gay marriages as having the same validity and rights as heterosexual marriage. Mayors in cities throughout America are issuing gay marriage licenses as the supposed constitutional right of gay marriage is being espoused. Seven more states have lawsuits and laws on the verge of doing the same thing. It seems only a matter of time before homosexual marriage or something approximating it will become the law of the land throughout America.

According to the Pew Global Attitudes Project, a majority of
people in every Western nation, including the United States, believe that homosexuality should be accepted by society. Not surprisingly, Africa and the Islamic nations sharply disagree that homosexuality should be acceptable.

However, immorality is a problem for straights in America as well. According to the 2003 World Almanac, almost one out of ten boys had their first sexual intercourse before age thirteen. About one out of twenty-five girls (4.0%) could say the same. That means that about two students in an average eighth-grade class have had sexual intercourse. I can’t believe there aren’t more.

The numbers jump rapidly once they have finished their first
year of high school. By the end of ninth grade, two out of every five boys (40.5%) and about one out of three girls (29.1%) have had sexual intercourse. By the end of their senior year of high school, the numbers even out. 61.0% of all boys and 60.1% of all girls have committed fornication and engaged in sexual intercourse. In fact, in the twelfth grade, more girls (50.1%) than boys (44.6%) were lively fornicating!

The Bible says “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,... will inherit kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9 ,10). Our blatant snubbing of God-given standards and warnings clearly reveal we are not a moral society. Fortunately, God has given us an opportunity to be forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Many of us can say along with the Corinthians, “Such were some of you (us); but you (we) were washed..." (1 Cor. 6:11). Still our nation is clearly in moral trouble as many not only refuse to turn away from such behavior, but strongly encourage and advocate these practices.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:57 am

And these are only our teenagers. The above statistics make no mention of the millions who will go on as adults to have immoral lifestyles. They also do not take into account many who have yet to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage but who participate in deviant sexual behavior or the millions who have exposed themselves to pornographic materials on television, and the Internet or other sources.

She is a City of Sorcery and Drugs

As “Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the earth” this city “has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird” (Rev. 17:5, 18:2). She has become home to demonically inspired depravity.

Not only is she immoral, she has become a haven for demonic activity. This is probably connected with her love and fascination with witchcraft and sorcery. For “all the nations of the world were deceived by her sorcery” (Rev. 18:23). The word for sorcery here is derived from pharmakeia and means drugs (illicit and otherwise) and also casting spells. She has an intense drug problem and a fascination with witchcraft. Movies and books like Harry Potter have helped stir up a huge grass roots interest in sorcery.

She is a Workaholic Materialistic Culture

Babylon has captured not only human labor, but also people’s very lives. This goes beyond labor. This system is a way of life to which the entire world has submitted. It is out of this mindset, this love of pleasure and bondage to a materialistic way of life that God is trying to call his people. A voice from heaven warns God’s people saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as
heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities” (Rev. 18:4-5). The Church is warned to not become seduced by Babylon and commit sin with her, lest we share in her judgment.

So how are we doing? Amazingly, although 120 million American adults regularly attend church, only seven percent identified spiritual wholeness and development as the factor that will produce a successful life. Only 15 million of the 120 million identified success as being something other than personal accomplishments and material possessions. A large majority of both adults and teenagers, confessing Christians and non-Christians contend that there is no absolute moral truth. While most of these people describe themselves as followers of Christ and say the Bible is accurate in all of its teachings, they nevertheless believe that truth is based on feelings, experience and emotion.

Christian pollster George Barna goes on to say,
“This is one of the greatest deceptions of our age. Embracing relativism under the guise of the Christian faith facilitates comfort with sin. By claiming the authority to determine right from wrong, we crown ourselves the kings and queens of reality, yet we have no such authority and we constantly pay the price for the arrogance of believing and acting like we are in control of our destiny and experience. What an affront it is to God for us to claim His name and protection but to resist His moral truths on the basis of human feelings.”

Is it any wonder God warns his people to come out of Babylon that they might not share in her judgments?

Why is Babylon Judged?

Heaven says,
Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’ For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
(Rev. 18:8-9)
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:04 am

Here we see God judging her primarily because of her immorality, pride, and greed. The voice from heaven warned God’s people to avoid immorality and greed. Paul warned the Church in the same way saying, “Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, that amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience” (Col. 3:5-6). Paul repeats the same warning against greed and immorality in Ephesians 5:5-6, once again stating judgment is coming because of these things.


Babylon the Great, the United States, is a primary exporter of this very mindset around the world.

She Serves the God of Wealth

This city that most epitomizes this system has made generating wealth its god. Its destruction will come quite rapidly, and the entire world will see it burn up in smoke. With the advent of CNN and international TV, this can now be literally fulfilled. This system is all encompassing in its reach. It has enveloped every comer of economic activity including:

Cargoes of “gold and silver” representing the financial sector.

Cargoes of “precious stones and pearls” representing the jewelry industry.

Cargoes of “fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet” repre-
senting the clothing industry.

Cargoes of “citron wood . . . ivory .. . very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble” representing the construction industry.

Cargoes of “cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense” representing the cosmetics industry. Cargoes of “wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep” representing the food and beverage indus-try.

Cargoes of “horses and chariots” that represent the transpor-tation industry.

And cargoes of “slaves and human lives” that represent cheap labor and slave labor and a workaholic, materialistic mindset on which this system thrives.

She will have Tremendous Political and Military Power

John makes it clear that Babylon is not only an economic system and a way of life, but she “... is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth” (Rev. 17:18). She has tremendous political influence and power. Babylon is a city that represents a nation, a political force, and a philosophy to the world. As the embodiment of an incredibly influential nation, this city and its ideas and way of life make it the most influential city in the history of the world.

New York City fits that bill today more than any other city ever has. While speaking to the United Nations General Assembly in New York City on September 23, 2003, President Bush essentially declared that the United States and its allies had saved the credibility of the United Nations by attacking Iraq. This statement was made on behalf of the nations of the world, even though the majority of them strongly disagreed with the war. They were powerless to stop it.

The Beast will Hate Her

John saw this woman Babylon “sitting on a scarlet beast full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns" (Rev. 17:3). This woman, at least for a time, is holding down the seven-headed beast by riding on its back. As such, the Beast will hate it. For years, the United States has been working behind the scenes. It has been utilizing the United Nations and alliances over which it has great power to hold down radical Islam. It is also working openly through economic embargoes, war and political pressure to do what it can to prevent the rise of the Islamic kingdom of the Beast.

Resentment towards American meddling in Islamic affairs is reaching the bursting point. Of the Islamic nations recently surveyed, Moroccans had the most favorable view of America. What percent of them looked at America favorably? 60%? 45%? Actually, only 27% viewed America favorably. Most of the Islamic nations were significantly lower in the percentage that held a favorable opinion. In our NATO ally Turkey, only 15% of Turks had a favorable view of America, and in two countries, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, only 1% of the population viewed America favorably.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:08 am

Look at the anti-American feeling dripping from these survey numbers. Huge majorities in many Islamic nations, Morocco (93%), Jordan (91%), Lebanon (82%), Turkey (82%), Indonesia (82%), and the Palestinian Authority (81%), expressed disappointment Iraq did not put up a greater fight against the coalition forces. This shows deep-seated resentment toward the United States and a deep emo-
tional attachment with their Muslim brethren.

Middle-East journalist, Fareed Zakaria is observing that "anti-Americanism is morphing from a purely anti-Bush phenomenon into a much broader cultural attitude." Samar Fatamy, a Saudi woman who has lived in America and has a weekly radio show in Saudi Arabia has said, “If you (America) continue on your present path, you will have no partners in the Middle East... In this next generation, you are creating so much bitterness. They don’t understand you (America), and they don’t want to understand you. What will come of that?”

Because of Babylon’s opposition to the Beast’s kingdom, the angel tells John, “The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.”
(Rev. 17:16-17)

Amazingly, God will actually use the Beast and his allies to bring judgment upon Babylon. This desire to burn her with fire has actually been put into the heart of the Beast by God himself.

She has a Female Idol on a Pedestal

The Prophet Zechariah gives us further insight on this woman in Zechariah 5:5-11. Here he sees an ephah (a basket with a lid), going forth. It turns out that wickedness is sitting inside the basket in the form of a woman. This is quite likely the same woman John saw sitting on the kingdom of the Beast (Rev. 17:1-3).

Suddenly, Zechariah sees this woman lifted up by two other women wearing wings like a stork. They lift wickedness up in the ephah and carry her for a long distance in the air between the earth and the heavens. This is a picture of going somewhere on a trip with this symbol of wickedness. Zechariah is curious as to where they are taking her and asks the angel. Then the angel states a most peculiar thing. He tells Zechariah that they are going “... to build a temple for her in the land af Shinar; and when it is prepared, she will be set there on her own pedestal” (Zech. 5:11).

Where is Shinar? The land of Shinar is another name for Babylon (Gen. 11:2-9). Notice also that this wickedness is a woman and is carried by two women. Just as the Statue of Liberty was set on her own pedestal in New York harbor, so too this woman is set up on her own pedestal. Lady Liberty beckons to the nations proclaiming her two messages of freedom and riches. Just as the two women placed her on her pedestal, so too these twin freedoms earned the statue her spot. This city has historically been the port of entry for the greatest number of immigrants to enter our land. It continues to be a major port of entry for visitors and immigrants. It is here that the Statue of Liberty greeted many to the shores of America. “Lady Liberty” as she is called, on the shores of the Empire State, has come to be associated with freedom and opportunity for riches. Those two core values have been elevated as the greatest of American values.

Interestingly, when she was being set up on our shores over a hundred years ago, a number of Protestant ministers and evangelical Christians protested that it was wrong to be setting up a female idol on our shores since they considered us a Christian nation. Their protests were ignored.

The artist who designed the statue designed her following a portrait of the goddess of “liberty” that was based upon the goddess Venus, also known as Aphrodite, Isis, and ultimately Ishtar, the primary goddess of ancient Babylon who was essentially a goddess of “love.”

Author R.A.Coombes found a number of other interesting similarities between the woman who sits on the beast and the Statue of Liberty. Here are some of the most intriguing ones:

The woman on the beast is clothed in scarlet. The Statue of Liberty was originally robed in scarlet/purple.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:11 am

The woman on the beast has a golden cup in her hand. The Statue of Liberty originally had a golden cup in her hand until it was later changed to a torch.

The woman who rides the beast wears purple robes denoting royalty in the ancient world. She also considers herself a queen. The Statue of Liberty is crowned like a queen as well.

The woman on the beast sits on seven heads that are mountains. The seven spikes on the Statue of Liberty’s crown represent the seven continents of the world. In the broadest sense, the continents could be considered as each a massive mountain.

The woman on the beast represents Babylon the mega-city. The Statue of Liberty overlooks a suburb of New York City known as Babylon, Long Island. It was a town founded by Jewish immigrants.

The woman on the Beast reigns over the kings of the earth. The Statue of Liberty also overlooks the United Nations Building.

Freedom and Liberty Increasingly Equal Immorality and Greed

Today, freedom in America has come to mean freedom for homosexuals to practice sodomy without government interference according to a recent Supreme Court ruling. Freedom means that consenting adults can engage in any form of immorality that pleases them, without government interference. In fact, with the push for civil unions and gay marriage, they are increasingly enjoying the government’s blessings!

It is only a matter of time before the laws against pedophiles and the exposure of children to sex are eased. Indeed, it is already happening. It was with great difficulty that Congress was finally able to place a restriction on public-library computers to screen out pornography. In the name of freedom, the American Library Association adamantly and successfully opposed it for seven years. Even so, under the current law, adults only need to ask the librarian to disengage the filter, and she must do so, regardless of whether or not children may be walking around looking over shoulders.

Liberty and freedom has now been expanded to mean the freedom to not hear about Christ at any public gatherings. We have gone beyond mere separation of church and state (a phrase found nowhere in our constitution or any legal ruling before 1962) and have decided that separation of God and slate is a foundational value of liberty. Christian students in Texas are no longer allowed to even ask the blessing of Jesus before public high school football games.

This new-found value of godlessness in our public speech has replaced the value of the gospel of Jesus Christ or the acknowledging of God in the affairs of men. Remaining vestiges of our Christian heritage and its impact on our governmental system are being relentlessly erased and suppressed all in the name of freedom. Government officials with Christian beliefs, such as judges or Attorney General John Ashcroft are vilified, often publicly, because of their outspoken Christian faith. They are now often questioned as to whether or not they could make competent government officials because of their Christian beliefs. They are considered as potential threats to freedom!

In the name of freedom, Americans sell, buy and watch magazines, movies, songs and TV shows, that celebrate every form of immorality the human mind can imagine. In the name of freedom and economic opportunity we extort by manipulation nearly one trillion dollars each year in gambling receipts, usually from those who can least afford it. In the name of freedom and, economic opportunity, we have murdered over one million unborn babies every year since 1953. We sing “God Bless America," and wonder why God doesn’t bless us. Why should He?

Our economic system has been adopted by countries around the globe as the surest way to economic wealth and development. The cultural impact of American music, television and movies upon other nations has been nothing short of a tidal wave in its force and effect. According to the French Ambassador to the United States, two-thirds of all movies seen by French moviegoers in 2002 were American movies. The same man said that American novels are fabulously popular among the French, as well. Traditional cultures, including Islam, have had difficulty withstanding the assault on their traditional values from the West. America has been front and center stage in this cultural tsunami enveloping the world.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:15 am

Today in Saudi Arabia, up and down chic Tahliyah street, carloads of teenage boys, with baseball caps worn rakishly backwards and their ankle-length robes tossed aside in favor of baggy low-slung pants, idle alongside cars full of teenage girls driven by chauffeurs. Girls and boys rapidly exchange papers with phone numbers on them. The girls anxiously wait for the boys to call them.

Jeddah, a Saudi Arabian city located on the coast of the Red Sea, in the middle of the night is the paradox of contemporary Saudi Arabia . . . “We are being carried in two directions, at once, backward and forward,” laments Sadi al-Yamani, a Saudi neurologist who sees, in her patients, the disorienting effects of changes that have rocketed a deeply conservative society from the seventh to the twenty-first century in the span of a few decades.

“Modern” in Saudi Arabia came to mean “American modern”—and more precisely, the outsize, mass-consumerism version of “modern” that American oilmen carried with them from the US Southwest, primarily Texas . . . The Arabian Peninsula has seen more change in the past six decades than in the previous 13 centuries.

It is true that this has been done by peaceful means and largely for business reasons and secondarily political ones. Yet, I am convinced that the concept of Lady Liberty has become the great hope of the world. The truth, however, is that the great hope of the world is the gospel of Jesus Christ. God shall not share his glory with another.

Babylon with its fabulous hanging gardens, tremendous opulence and worldly wealth was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. Ancient Babylon, caught totally unaware, was destroyed overnight by the Persians and Medes who dammed up the river entering the city through its channel. While the city partied, the Persians overwhelmed them before they knew what happened. Their riotous living on that fateful night is described in Daniel 5.

Not unlike the future Babylon, they were busy praising the works of human hands when the prophet interpreted the handwriting on the wall. The future Babylon will be destroyed just as suddenly as the ancient one.

America will eventually decline just as every other great empire has. It is pride to think otherwise, particularly given the depth to which the Gospel and Christian values had penetrated our society and government in the past, and the fact that as a nation, we have largely and willfully turned our back on these truths. As happened to Babylon, in Daniel, chapter five, so will happen to America. And I believe very soon.

Daniel 5:24-31
Then the fingers of the hand were sent from Him, and this writing was written. "And this is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. 26 This is the interpretation of each word. Mene: God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; 27 Tekel: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting; 28 Peres: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians." ..... 30 That very night Belshazzar, king of the Chaldeans, was slain. 31 And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

If you have taken the time to read this far, then you see why I believe America may be the Mystery Babylon. The damage has been done here in America. Are we now beyond the point of no return? How shall we live in such a troubling time? Our time is short.

Sorry to be so long... Presenting an idea is not always easy.

The Old Timer
Last edited by crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby carpentersdaughter on Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:54 pm

:shock: This is going to take a while.
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in the later times some will abondon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:36 pm

This is going to take a while.


Take your time, Carpentersdaughter.....

However, our time is growing short.
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Postby TRUTHSPEAK on Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:54 pm

crmann -THANK YOU ! ! ! You have presented my belief--NYC IS Mystery Babylon The Great--better than I ever could! Thank you my Brother in Christ Jesus -THANK YOU.

PS-->Only one thing I differ with you -The 10 horns being controlled by an Islamic Beast; the Jewish people--even though they've turned very secular in their thinking--would never accept an Islamic Saviour per se. Nevertheless, I'm open to new ideas, & if you can possibly research further & find Biblical & Historical "evidence," I would be very appreciative.

Indeed, We The People of these United States of America had better WAKE UP & smell the rotting roses!!!!

God Bless you, OLD TIMER -God Bless you

TS
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And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. -Ephesians 4:32

Numbers 6:24-26: The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up His face upon you and give you SHALOM. In the name of SAR SHALOM - the Prince of Peace.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:25 pm

PS-->Only one thing I differ with you -The 10 horns being controlled by an Islamic Beast; the Jewish people--even though they've turned very secular in their thinking--would never accept an Islamic Saviour per se. Nevertheless, I'm open to new ideas, & if you can possibly research further & find Biblical & Historical "evidence," I would be very appreciative.


Thanks you, TruthSpeak... You say the Jewish people will never accept an Islamic saviour?

Never say never..... We really cannot tell what the future holds.... Until people know the situation they will be in at that time, most folk won't know how they will react.

As believers in the true Messiah, however, we know what we had better do, and that is to stand with the Lord God Almighty.

Nevertheless, I'm open to new ideas, & if you can possibly research further & find Biblical & Historical "evidence," I would be very appreciative.


TS, how many times during the Old Testament history did the Israelites follow after false gods? They worshipped idols, they sacrificed their children to false gods.... You name it, they did it.

Another thing, TS.... I only presented this picture of America being Mystery Babylon, to allow folk to see how closely America fits the description of Mystery Babylon as presented in the scriptures. What folk decide to believe is up to them.

Blessings,

The Old Timer
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Postby Arfur on Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:42 pm

crmann,

If you have taken the time to read this far, then you see why I believe America may be the Mystery Babylon. The damage has been done here in America. Are we now beyond the point of no return? How shall we live in such a troubling time? Our time is short.


In reading Rev.18, I noticed that Gods people are no longer in Babylon when the great city is destroyed and that, after Christ has returned. verses 1-4


Please consider also that the only singular city of the chapters refers to the spirit of Mystery Babylon, while her domain is that of many cities of the earth.

Yes truly NY is a major city of Mystery Babylon but it is not singularly there alone that the 2 witnesses are killed. (the 2 witnesses are many persons also)

I found it interesting however that a certain prophet said that a great atrocity would occur, committed by moslems, in a great city indentified as being Paris, but as the french peoples became a rebublic and was exported to the USA as democracy then it may well be that he saw NY in his dreams and not Paris.

The outcome of this persons prophecies, interpreted by a French Christian and then by his Christian son, is that the king of the republic would prevail over the middle east in defeating the armies of the moslem world.

In my understanding of scripture, only a leader of nations of the gospel, in turning away from God , can fulfil the deceiving of all the world to worship him as God, but of course he would have to accept moslems as being his subjects as well one would think but according to Dan 11 he destroys any who will not bow to him.

The word worship often only means to bow down in an act of submission. It does not necessarily describe that the worshipper does truly believe that the one they worship, is in fact the God of Heaven Himself.

I believe the present attempt to conquor the entire world with the fallen Babylonic culture, which you described in your posts, is in fact the first seal of Rev. ch 6. now breaking down into the outbreaks of bloodshed, so that eventually famine will ensue and greater force bought to bear by the west or G 8 nations to right the situation in the 4th seal.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honor the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

BTW I will be saving your good posts on the subject for future reference.

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Postby ltl on Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:34 am

crmann and others,

This is a very compelling account and very interesting. These are very convincing parallels drawn between NYC/USA and the great prostitute. Particularly the economic parallels and exportation of Western culture. But it does not seem to all hang together for me. For example, has NYC/USA been guilty of shedding the blood of the saints, as per the following versus?

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Is it clear from these verses that the great prostitute has been responsible for killing large numbers of Saints? Admittedly we can see mockery of Christians as a form of persecution, but blood? Shedding the blood of the saints has happened in many nations over the course of history, and continues to happen. Does NYC/USA fulfill this aspect of prophecy about “drunk with the blood of the saints?”

Also, I suspect that almost all of the immorality found in NYC/USA can be found elsewhere to a greater degree elsewhere (e.g., other US cities and places in Europe). At least many people in the US are still fighting against the ideas/practice of gay “marriage,” abortion, embryonic stem cell research, etc. Countries in Europe are way ahead of us in going down that slippery slope. So, yes USA is declining in morality as a Nation, but are we the worst? And are we the great prostitute if there are other prostitutes worse yet than us?

[An aside, and not to disrupt the thread, I grew up in a marginally Roman Catholic family and never heard the gospel till years later as an adult. When I read about this great prostitute, I can’t help it, I always see the RC church/Vatican City/Rome. Admittedly, I may be bias by my disgust with the RC church and its horribly blasphemous official doctrine (which I have researched and been appalled at what I saw) (although I know many individual Catholics are believers and our brothers and sisters).]
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Postby crmann on Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:29 am

crmann and others,

This is a very compelling account and very interesting. These are very convincing parallels drawn between NYC/USA and the great prostitute. Particularly the economic parallels and exportation of Western culture. But it does not seem to all hang together for me. For example, has NYC/USA been guilty of shedding the blood of the saints, as per the following versus?


LTL, Over thirty million unborn children have been slain here in America since Row vs Wade. Is not the blood of those souls crying out to God the Father even now? How many of those innocent unborn would have been saints of the Lord?

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

If Babylon the Great is the United States, what can this mean? Revelation 18:24 ties together the economic Babylon with mystery Babylon of Revelation 17. It is the whore with the blood on her hands...

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto YHWH our Elohim: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

The United States of America is modern day headquarters for the whore of Revelation 17. Also, the United States is known as the melting pot of the nations. On the back of the one dollar bill, it says, "epluribus unum", which means in Latin, "Out of many, one".

The story of the "Tower of Babel" in Genesis 11 tells how the earth was all one language, and how the people built a tower:
Genesis 11:4 And they said, "Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth." 
Genesis 11:5 And YHWH came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And YHWH said, "Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." 8 So YHWH scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because YHWH did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did YHWH scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

The United States is made up of descendents from all these nations. Also, what Yahushua said to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23 concerning the blood of the righteous prophets can also apply to the people of this nation concerning everyone slain upon the earth...

Rev 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Is it clear from these verses that the great prostitute has been responsible for killing large numbers of Saints? Admittedly we can see mockery of Christians as a form of persecution, but blood? Shedding the blood of the saints has happened in many nations over the course of history, and continues to happen. Does NYC/USA fulfill this aspect of prophecy about “drunk with the blood of the saints?”


Also, I suspect that almost all of the immorality found in NYC/USA can be found elsewhere to a greater degree elsewhere (e.g., other US cities and places in Europe). At least many people in the US are still fighting against the ideas/practice of gay “marriage,” abortion, embryonic stem cell research, etc. Countries in Europe are way ahead of us in going down that slippery slope. So, yes USA is declining in morality as a Nation, but are we the worst? And are we the great prostitute if there are other prostitutes worse yet than us?


I agree, many people in the US are still fighting against these sins, however are we now fighting a losing battle? Have we not reached the point of no return? Were we not the last nation on earth with a Christian influence on the rest of the rest of the world which now has itself turned against God? And LTL, what will the our American society continue to do under the next president of the United States? The candidates up vying for the office to me don’t look promising. At the last presidential election we were basically an evenly divided country. I wonder what will be revealed at the next election?


[An aside, and not to disrupt the thread, I grew up in a marginally Roman Catholic family and never heard the gospel till years later as an adult. When I read about this great prostitute, I can’t help it, I always see the RC church/Vatican City/Rome. Admittedly, I may be bias by my disgust with the RC church and its horribly blasphemous official doctrine (which I have researched and been appalled at what I saw) (although I know many individual Catholics are believers and our brothers and sisters).]


LTL, you’re not disrupting but enriching this thread. Praise the Lord you have come out of the Catholic Church. And praise the Lord you now know the Lord as your personal savior and King. Many have viewed the Catholic Church/Vatican as the harlot of Revelation 17. She very likely will have a major part in the endtimes scenario, but we now are able to see more clearly where other pieces of the puzzle are coming into view. (I speak of the Muslims and their part in our society today.)

LTL, please don’t think I am being stubborn and unyielding here about Mystery Babylon being America. If others can persuade me otherwise, then I will be the wiser for it.

Thank you, LTL for sharing your thoughts. This can be an ongoing study on this question.

Love you, LTL,

YBIC,

Cleveland
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Postby ltl on Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:12 am

LTL, Over thirty million unborn children have been slain here in America since Row vs Wade. Is not the blood of those souls crying out to God the Father even now? How many of those innocent unborn would have been saints of the Lord?


I agree about the blood fo the unborn children crying out to the Lord. It makes me sick. But I am not sure whether that is what is meant by the "blood of the saints." And this crime is going on in many nations, unfortuantely.

agree, many people in the US are still fighting against these sins, however are we now fighting a losing battle?


I agree with this too. It also makes me sick. I am just not sure we are the most corrupt nation at this point, to be the great prostitute.

please don’t think I am being stubborn and unyielding here about Mystery Babylon being America. If others can persuade me otherwise, then I will be the wiser for it.


I don't see you being stubborn. You have a good point.
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Postby crmann on Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:07 pm

Modernism, humanism, satanism....

Luke 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

     We look upon the most despicable of sins being committed in the name of modernism and humanism and satanism here in America.

     America cries peace, peace, when there is no peace. America cries security when there is no security. America has opened its door to a brood of vipers [The U.N.]. America has left the narrow road, and the road grows wider daily.

     America has been given in abundance, and much will be expected of it. And woe to America who has received the light of Christ only to turn away to darkness (Satan) and to destroy the souls of the many.
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Postby Arfur on Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:12 pm

Cleveland,

I think that Australia and some other nations are not much different to the USA.

However I understand that the USA is the central power of Babylon of the last days and that she is struggling to survive, and not the pretty picture that she is giving to the rest of the world through the media.

Many in the USA are in denial that it is possible that a USA leader could become the Beast head of Rev.13 and 17.

The attack on her by the terrorists brings out either a godly repentence and a returning to a leaning upon God or it brings out something so nasty from her flesh that she (and her allies) becomes worse than her enemies.

Israel of the flesh is descending into the same thing, and not into a nation which is the apple of Gods eye.

Arfur.
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Postby Looking4acity on Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:49 pm

crmann wrote:Modernism, humanism, satanism....

Luke 12:48
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

     We look upon the most despicable of sins being committed in the name of modernism and humanism and satanism here in America.

     America cries peace, peace, when there is no peace. America cries security when there is no security. America has opened its door to a brood of vipers [The U.N.]. America has left the narrow road, and the road grows wider daily.

     America has been given in abundance, and much will be expected of it. And woe to America who has received the light of Christ only to turn away to darkness (Satan) and to destroy the souls of the many.


Well, you have brought up some good points. I, too, am stuck on the "blood of the saints" part but I guess those verses could be fulfilled in the future during the Great Tribulation. We've all heard of the American prisons being prepared for dissidence and the US also has the largest population that claims to be Christian....Maybe America will be guilty of the blood of the saints afterall.

I'll keep an open mind about it.
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Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:27 pm

In Rev 17 Babylon apparently kills christians- 'I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.'

But Rev. 18 says nothing directly about Babylon killing christians, we make the assumption based on Rev. 17 being the same city- 'In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.'

If a christian lives in New York and is killed in New York, where will his blood be found?- in New York. Does that necessarily mean New York killed the christian?--No that would be an assumption. Russia or Iran (the Medes and the Persians) could have killed the christian and the blood of the saint would still be found in Babylon.

In Rev. 18 it is not specified whether Babylon kills the christians, only that the blood of christians is located in Babylon. If the blood of christians is found or located in Babylon, whoever destroys Babylon would be the one who sheds their blood.

If Rev. 17 and 18 are describing the same city of Babylon, then clearly Babylon kills the christians in Rev. 18. But if Rev. 17 and 18 are describing 2 different cities, 2 different Babylons, then the Babylon of Rev. 18 does not necessarily kill christians, but christians apparently will be living there, their blood will be found in Babylon, no matter who causes their deaths.
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Postby Mrs. B on Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:02 am

Daniel 8:25b.....and by peace shall destroy many:

he shall also stand up against the Prince of Princes....
but shall be broken without hand....


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Postby yael on Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:26 pm

crmann wrote:And these are only our teenagers. The above statistics make no mention of the millions who will go on as adults to have immoral lifestyles. They also do not take into account many who have yet to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage but who participate in deviant sexual behavior or the millions who have exposed themselves to pornographic materials on television, and the Internet or other sources.

She is a City of Sorcery and Drugs

As “Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the earth” this city “has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird” (Rev. 17:5, 18:2). She has become home to demonically inspired depravity.

Not only is she immoral, she has become a haven for demonic activity. This is probably connected with her love and fascination with witchcraft and sorcery. For “all the nations of the world were deceived by her sorcery” (Rev. 18:23). The word for sorcery here is derived from pharmakeia and means drugs (illicit and otherwise) and also casting spells. She has an intense drug problem and a fascination with witchcraft. Movies and books like Harry Potter have helped stir up a huge grass roots interest in sorcery.

She is a Workaholic Materialistic Culture

Babylon has captured not only human labor, but also people’s very lives. This goes beyond labor. This system is a way of life to which the entire world has submitted. It is out of this mindset, this love of pleasure and bondage to a materialistic way of life that God is trying to call his people. A voice from heaven warns God’s people saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as
heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities” (Rev. 18:4-5). The Church is warned to not become seduced by Babylon and commit sin with her, lest we share in her judgment.

So how are we doing? Amazingly, although 120 million American adults regularly attend church, only seven percent identified spiritual wholeness and development as the factor that will produce a successful life. Only 15 million of the 120 million identified success as being something other than personal accomplishments and material possessions. A large majority of both adults and teenagers, confessing Christians and non-Christians contend that there is no absolute moral truth. While most of these people describe themselves as followers of Christ and say the Bible is accurate in all of its teachings, they nevertheless believe that truth is based on feelings, experience and emotion.

Christian pollster George Barna goes on to say,
“This is one of the greatest deceptions of our age. Embracing relativism under the guise of the Christian faith facilitates comfort with sin. By claiming the authority to determine right from wrong, we crown ourselves the kings and queens of reality, yet we have no such authority and we constantly pay the price for the arrogance of believing and acting like we are in control of our destiny and experience. What an affront it is to God for us to claim His name and protection but to resist His moral truths on the basis of human feelings.”

Is it any wonder God warns his people to come out of Babylon that they might not share in her judgments?

Why is Babylon Judged?

Heaven says,
Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her. To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.’ For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
(Rev. 18:8-9)


An area in the US where there is high levels of sorcery and occultism, work hour expectation is basically to live your job. H1B Visas have been constantly increased because they wish to pay low and work long hours , Zen Buddhism is florishing, they have rulers/presidents come to them and many decisions are being made about the country and even business/technology in the world. More billionaries that most areas in the US. Wealth, power, materialism are expected to stay in the game. It would be Northern California -> Silicon Valley. There is a symbolic reason for the byte of the apple.
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Mystery Babylon

Postby yael on Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:47 am

...
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Postby crmann on Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:43 pm

What say you, Yael????
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Postby Mrs. B on Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:22 pm

and by Peace shall deceive many......

bb
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Postby nickylouse on Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:21 pm

At the opening of the Values Voters Debate a choir sung a song to the tune of "God Bless America", which has become so secularly popular since 9/11. The main chorus goes:

Why should God bless America?
We forgot that he exists;
And has turned her back on everything
That has made her what she is.

Why should God stand beside her
Through the night with the light from His hand?
God have mercy on America
Forgive her sins and heal our land.

I would love to see this version be humbly adopted by this country.
On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. (Luke 21:25-NIV)
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Postby nickylouse on Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:18 pm

crmann wrote:“Lady Liberty” as she is called, on the shores of the Empire State, has come to be associated with freedom and opportunity for riches. Those two core values have been elevated as the greatest of American values.

Interestingly, when she was being set up on our shores over a hundred years ago, a number of Protestant ministers and evangelical Christians protested that it was wrong to be setting up a female idol on our shores since they considered us a Christian nation. Their protests were ignored.


To see an alternative to Lady Liberty watch this about The Statue of Liberation Through Christ located about 15 miles southeast of Memphis.

In Psalm 33:12
God wrote:Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD,
the people he chose for his inheritance.
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Postby crmann on Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:52 pm

Nickylouse,

As I watched the video of the Statue of Liberation, and listened as it was referred to as she, I had a very uneasy feeling.

On whom should we fix our eyes? On a statue? or on Jesus?

We are to worship God in spirit and truth.. Where in God's word are we told to go building statues?
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Postby nickylouse on Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:50 pm

crmann, that is a very good point. The statue is certainly not something that should be worshipped. The second commandment of the decalogue forbids creating a graven image and bowing down in worship to it. However, the symbols that it represent are clearly pointing to God. I don't know... do you think that the intent was to cause people to look in awe at the structure or the symbolism it represents? Or is there even a difference?

We could be getting off the topic....
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Postby crmann on Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:52 pm

crmann, that is a very good point. The statue is certainly not something that should be worshipped. The second commandment of the decalogue forbids creating a graven image and bowing down in worship to it. However, the symbols that it represent are clearly pointing to God. I don't know... do you think that the intent was to cause people to look in awe at the structure or the symbolism it represents? Or is there even a difference?

We could be getting off the topic....


Nicklouse....

As the Catholic Church has taken pagan customs, which God hates, and made them a major part of their worship and religion,

The group has taken The Statue of Liberty, which was based upon the goddess Venus, also known as Aphrodite, Isis, and ultimately Ishtar, the primary goddess of ancient Babylon who was essentially a goddess of “love,” and turned it into a "religious" statue...

Does this please God?

No, we're not getting off the subject, we are just shedding light on the Babylon of America...

Blessings,

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Postby good4u on Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:11 pm

crmann,

I honor you poster, you are my first reply...THIS was the thread that captured my attention for I have been around a looooong time in the complex world of biblical prophecy and this subject is one of the most debated.

I agree with most of your initial posts regarding this nation as the Mystery Bablyon and NYC in particular as the city to be hit by a nuclear strike. In this we both agree and for most of the reasons you stated.

It was the most comprehensive and insightful opinion I have seen on this subject. Bravo!
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Postby BeTheMoon on Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:07 pm

good4u

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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:40 pm

:wavewelcome: good4u!
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Postby crmann on Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:45 pm

Thank you, Good4u....

And, Good4u, let me give you an official welcome.

:wavewelcome: ... :wavewelcome: ... :wavewelcome: on you first post.

But please understand that if anyone can show me otherwise, I will gladly acquiesce.

But to add to the discussion, let me share a piece put together by Brett Daniel Wills.

America as Mystery Babylon
Forty Symbolic Proofs


EVentHorizonZine@aol.com

e-Venthorizon.net

"The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy"
- Revelation 19:10

Revelation 12, 17-19


1. "A woman" - America, effeminate title

2. "fallen, fallen" - Twin Towers collapse

3. "in one hour comes to ruin" - Towers collapsed in little over an hour

4. "a city" - New York, New York

5. "world sees smoke of her burning" - media show towers burning to entire globe

6. "makes nations drunk with her trade" - Center of World Trade

7. "she held a golden cup in her hand" - Statue of Liberty, torch painted gold in 1980s

8. "The woman is like Israel" - America, Israel are inextricably bound together

9. "has two horns like a lamb" - Christian nation, constitutionally conservative

10. "speaks like a dragon" - Satanic nation, verbally and socially liberal

11. referred to as "great" - described as "great Satan" by Eastern Islamists

12. "glorified herself" - self-worship by worship of individuality, image

13. "lived luxuriously", "filled with riches" - America is the richest nation on earth

14. "clothed with the sun" - is armed with the greatest nuclear might

15. "with the moon under feet" - Apollo landing, only nation to conquer the moon

16. "rules over the nations of the earth" - single superpower

17. "the earth came to her aid" - international support

18. "given the wings of an eagle" - the eagle is a U.S. symbol, war effort is titled, "Operation Noble Eagle"

19. "drunk with the blood of the saints" - spiritually apostate

20. "boasts, 'I am not a widow'" - brags of its goodness, yet is unrepentant

21. "in the cup that she mixed" - worship of God with worship of money

22. Three references to "a woman" - apostate church, paganism, imitates Israel

23. "has a crown of 12 stars" - alliance with and control over EU/NATO

24 "God uses her enemies to burn her" - international terrorism

25. "seven nations, and an eighth against her" - seven Islamic nations and Russia

26. "her sins reached to heaven" - leader in pornography, drugs, violence, greed

27. world mourns for her "from afar off" - nations distanced by Pacific and Atlantic oceans

28. "Tower of Babel, symbol of multiethnicity" - U.S., most democratized, ethnically integrated

29. "Tower of Babel, symbol of one language" - U.S. only multiethnic nation w/universal English

30. "come out of her, lest you share in her sins" - allure of American lifestyle, difficult to resist

31. "strong is the God who judges her" - a new era in warfare against a faceless enemy

32. "they will plunder her" - Terrorists call for the "plundering" of the U.S.

33. "fourth bowl of God's wrath poured out" - retaliation by U.S. employs nuclear option

34. "God conveys it is Himself fighting her" - Terrorists call the fight a "Holy War"

35. "the light of a lamp shall shine no more in you" - The Gospel hypocritically promoted ends

36. "music" of every kind "shall be heard no more - The U.S. is the center of all modern music

37. "the merchants of the earth mourn for her" - Stock markets and trade halt and decline

38. "The Serpent spewed.. a flood after the woman" - Thousands of terrorist cells network to destroy America through suicide bombings and biological warfare.

39. "The earth swallowed up the flood" - 68 nations commit to crack down on terrorists to aid U.S. Over 100 pledge support in fight against global terrorism, the largest coalition in history

40. "The dragon, enraged, went off to war with her offspring"- Christians persecuted globally by religious extremists.



Explanation of the Evidence

The Book of Revelation claims that there will be a nation in the end times which sits over the nations of the earth. It's symbol is a woman who holds up a golden cup in her hand, which she uses to make the nations drunk with the wine of her financial trading fornication. The statue of liberty comes immediately to mind. The original bronze color of the statue has turn a sickly pale green due to soot, and the torch was painted "gold" in the eighties.

On the very same page where mention of this woman, who is referred to as a spiritual harlot, is shown, just a few paragraphs further on, the same page reveals that this woman is "fallen, fallen" and goes on to mention that she is the center of world trade, and that she is also referred to "great". She is the mother of harlots, mystery Babylon. The word "mystery" implies a truth to be revealed in the latter times, "sealed up till the time of the end," and therefore cannot be interpreted in historical, traditional texts.

Go back to the book of Genesis, where Babylon is first mentioned, and we find that a "Tower" was built based on multiethnic pride, and that God struck it down. "As in the days of Noah, so shall the end be." Cut back to the present situation. We are a nation that leads the world toward global trade in preparation for a world system of democratic governance ("of one mind") and capitalism (love of money, idolatry) under multiple religions (paganism), as the leader of this trade, with the Twin Towers being the greatest symbols of that trade.

The bible says that the very beginning of the judgement of this harlot woman nation is that she is struck in one hour with fire, causing her "towers" to be "fallen, fallen," which begins the outpouring of the 5th bowl of God's wrath, leading to nations being "burned with the sun".

Remember also that we are referred to in the East as the "great" Satan. The social virtues of community and non-materialism, as well as a deep fear of God, albeit a false God, is a profound condemnation against the West, which promotes Christianity yet is socially and morally bankrupt, apostate, corrupt. It is a gross hypocrisy, without equal.

The European Union, though it has expanded from 12 to 15 nations and is about to add more nations, yet has chosen to keep its unification symbol of a crown of 12 stars. Thus Europe is our crowning achievement of power, our allies, etc. The bible goes on to say that this woman has "the moon under feet". The sun is symbolic of nuclear arms, which are hydrogen explosions, the same as the processes of the sun, reaching the same measure of heat. Also, "the stars will fall from heaven." As a means of astronomical physics, that is impossible. But as a source of symbolism, it refers to nuclear war.

Lastly, God calls on Christians to come out America spiritually, lest we be corrupted by her worship of money and self. Today, Christians suffer severely from this. And God may well have to rapture us out of here in order to judge America in full. As long as we remain in it, God promises not to judge it in full, because "for the sake of ten" and even one, his "wrath is withheld" as well see in the Old Testament when prophet stood in the gap between God's anger and the apostate cities and nations.

So, we may indeed retaliate against terrorism and crush the nations that sponsor them. But until we overcome our own gross hypocritical religious nature on a national level, on a par that matches or exceeds the social virtues of the false theocracies, God has no choice but to judge us, lest he be otherwise be mocked by us and accused by the nations we endeavor to evangelize.

Bless you everyone.

The Old Timer....
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Postby mark s on Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:52 pm

:welcome: Good4u!!!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:51 am

I remember my christian friends and I were discussing this in the 80s, I sure do not want to believe it but it is for sure a good consideration.

Does NYC/USA fulfill this aspect of prophecy about “drunk with the blood of the saints?”



We will have to wait on this one maybe, because we have no idea where the final things are going to play out with the overcoming of the saints in the end.

One thing I have been watching also is this Dubai, thing. Have you guys seen what the sheik over there is doing. And do you know how much of the world's ports and things they are buying up. He even said on a show I saw the other night that he wanted it to become the financial place of the world.

So depends on how much time we may have left for sure. I actually thought this might have been part of the original babylon area, since some scientists think that the Saudi Arabian penisula was connected, and that the two other rivers from the passage in Gensis, were there also.

Interesting, but I also think America, is rotten to the core at this point.
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Postby good4u on Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:58 am

The one area which I do also disagree, as one poster has pointed out, is that the "Beast" is not Islamic, tho' I believe they are heavily involved as allies, but is the Revived Roman Empire which Herb has so astutely documented.

Gotta go...be back soon. :)
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Postby qb0987 on Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:38 pm

good4u wrote:The one area which I do also disagree, as one poster has pointed out, is that the "Beast" is not Islamic, tho' I believe they are heavily involved as allies, but is the Revived Roman Empire which Herb has so astutely documented.

Gotta go...be back soon. :)


A theory that also got a lot of disagreements.

see this article for example: http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/roman.html
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:37 pm

Northern Africa, and all of the mid eastern Islamic nations, were part of the Roman Empire also. So for sure any of these nations, Turkey, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Lybia, Ethiopia, for sure could be part of the ten toed kingdoms that come out of the Roman Empire.

We only seem to remember the western countries that were part of the original Roman Empire, but those Islamic countries of today were there also then.
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Postby good4u on Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:40 am

I think we may be splitting hairs (as prophecy students tend to be), and it is true that some modern Islamic countries were indeed part of the old Roman Empire. The ENP certainly reveals that is the case, but the Islamic countries are certainly not the head of the beast, do you not agree?

I am talking about who calls the shots in the beastly empire, it will not be the Islamic countries as prophecy states. Tho' I do point out that the Islamic countries are deeply involved in that there is no doubt which I am sure the opposition would agree. Tho' I yet am to understand how NYC will spill "the blood of the prophets" unless Elijah and Moses decide to visit NYC somehow! LOL

I admit not everything has been revealed and I simply do not know. But it will be crystal clear if we are to live it and IF things start to come to pass.
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Postby qb0987 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:55 am

good4u wrote:I think we may be splitting hairs (as prophecy students tend to be), and it is true that some modern Islamic countries were indeed part of the old Roman Empire. The ENP certainly reveals that is the case, but the Islamic countries are certainly not the head of the beast, do you not agree?


No. I find it strange that you assume everyone agrees that it is NOT the Islamic Empire (Caliphate). There are many who do NOT believe that the RRE is the beast or that the AC will arise from there.

I am talking about who calls the shots in the beastly empire, it will not be the Islamic countries as prophecy states.


Interesting assumption again.

Tho' I do point out that the Islamic countries are deeply involved in that there is no doubt which I am sure the opposition would agree. Tho' I yet am to understand how NYC will spill "the blood of the prophets" unless Elijah and Moses decide to visit NYC somehow! LOL

I admit not everything has been revealed and I simply do not know. But it will be crystal clear if we are to live it and IF things start to come to pass.


Which is why, we need to keep everything in view and slowly and carefully evaluate all that is happening, especially when we do not have things we have yet to understand. We shouldn't jump too far ahead to the conclusion.
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Postby good4u on Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:31 am

qb0987 wrote:
good4u wrote:I think we may be splitting hairs (as prophecy students tend to be), and it is true that some modern Islamic countries were indeed part of the old Roman Empire. The ENP certainly reveals that is the case, but the Islamic countries are certainly not the head of the beast, do you not agree?


qb0987 wrote:[No. I find it strange that you assume everyone agrees that it is NOT the Islamic Empire (Caliphate). There are many who do NOT believe that the RRE is the beast or that the AC will arise from there.


I assume nothing, if you believe there will be an Islamic Empire (is that right?) then fine. As for myself, I do not see that POV supported in Scripture. A Roman Empire IS supported in Scripture and that is what I base my POV upon (Daniel, Revelation etc.). However, if you can show me thru out prophetic Scripture of an exact Islamic Empire, I will certainly consider it. Good luck with that.


I am talking about who calls the shots in the beastly empire, it will not be the Islamic countries as prophecy states.


qb0987 wrote:[Interesting assumption again.


I would call it insightful and challenge you to give it great thought.


Tho' I do point out that the Islamic countries are deeply involved in that there is no doubt which I am sure the opposition would agree. Tho' I yet am to understand how NYC will spill "the blood of the prophets" unless Elijah and Moses decide to visit NYC somehow! LOL

I admit not everything has been revealed and I simply do not know. But it will be crystal clear if we are to live it and IF things start to come to pass.


Which is why, we need to keep everything in view and slowly and carefully evaluate all that is happening, especially when we do not have things we have yet to understand. We shouldn't jump too far ahead to the conclusion.


Just because you may be too litte, too late, doesn't mean the rest of have to be. If your a newbie to the world of biblical prophecy I understand your skeptism, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to be. This will happen and unless God stops the prophetic clock for his own sovereign reasons, it will be my generation who sees this happen. It is one of the reasons I follow international politics. Most Christians are not even aware of the ENP or it's twin sister, the financial instrument of the ENP. Nevertheless, the US election and its outcome will be critical in moving events forward, IMO.

Time will tell...as always.
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Postby qb0987 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:18 pm

good4u wrote:I assume nothing,


OK. Perhaps, I misunderstood your "do you not agree?"

if you believe there will be an Islamic Empire (is that right?) then fine.


I do not believe that "there WILL BE an Islamic Empire". I believe there is a very strong possibility.

As for myself, I do not see that POV supported in Scripture. A Roman Empire IS supported in Scripture and that is what I base my POV upon (Daniel, Revelation etc.). However, if you can show me thru out prophetic Scripture of an exact Islamic Empire, I will certainly consider it. Good luck with that.


I am pretty sure the case for both are similar, where there are places where we have to make some connections. But since this thread is about Mystery Babylon, I do not see the need to hijack it.

I actually don't agree with Cleveland about NYC.



I am talking about who calls the shots in the beastly empire, it will not be the Islamic countries as prophecy states.


qb0987 wrote:[Interesting assumption again.


I would call it insightful and challenge you to give it great thought.


Actually, I have. I used to believe in the Roman Empire theory. And I still continually evaluate it.


Which is why, we need to keep everything in view and slowly and carefully evaluate all that is happening, especially when we do not have things we have yet to understand. We shouldn't jump too far ahead to the conclusion.


Just because you may be too litte, too late, doesn't mean the rest of have to be.


I'm not sure what you mean here.

If your a newbie to the world of biblical prophecy I understand your skeptism, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to be.


I am skeptical, but I am not a newbie. I am skeptical because, like you, I am a man of logic and I like to evaluate everything carefully. Many are those who commit logical fallacies, and I try my very best not to (forgetfulness and slips aside).

This will happen and unless God stops the prophetic clock for his own sovereign reasons, it will be my generation who sees this happen. It is one of the reasons I follow international politics. Most Christians are not even aware of the ENP or it's twin sister, the financial instrument of the ENP. Nevertheless, the US election and its outcome will be critical in moving events forward, IMO.


As do me. I follow it, but these do not prove the validity of the Roman theory. It only increases the probability of it.

Time will tell...as always.


Exactly. That is why I cannot use absolutes in some cases.
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Postby good4u on Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:35 am

Here is something for your consideration:

Mystery Bablyon has everything to do with what we are talking about in this thread including the RRE...so it is not in my mind hijacking it...unless the moderators or the OP decide otherwise...then okay.

Why is that?

Does not Revelation say that the drunken woman (i.e., MB) rides (i.e., controls) the 10 horned beast for a time? UNTILL--the beast hates the woman and destroys her with fire? I think so.

Tho' I believe you are correct that Islamic countries will be deeply involved with the RRE (as they are now in ENP) and middle east peace negotiations, they will not be calling the shots in the end. That there will be and Islamic Empire as the beast does not really square with prophetic scripture (see Ezekiel 38 & 39). Prophetic Scripture consistently indicates that AC originates from the north of Israel and not the middle east. If it did, I would agree with you that an Islamic Empire would be plausible. But I just can't prove that in Scripture because it is NOT THERE. Don't entertain theories that can't be proven and waste your time, you will be better off. BTW, the US is not the beast either as many have alleged, tho' we will be getting our just dessert as well.

No, Mystery Bablyon by all indications should be the United States and NYC in particular. It is sad, but I believe in the end, true.

There is no other superpower left on earth now, except us, and we are ripe for judgment sooner than later, I am afraid.
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Postby qb0987 on Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:07 pm

Actually, I have considered the scenario you gave. It is good theory. But I am not convinced about it.
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Postby good4u on Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:29 am

Suit yourself. Keep watching international politics--in fact, later this year the holy sites will be on the agenda in negotiations ahead of a US- sponsored summit on the middle east in Annapolis later this year. It may be that an agreement could be laid down for the contruction of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem which would not be part of the Arab Temple Mount. This high level summit bears close watching and evaluation with prophetic Scripture...
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Postby water on Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:52 pm

good4u wrote:Prophetic Scripture consistently indicates that AC originates from the north of Israel and not the middle east. If it did, I would agree with you that an Islamic Empire would be plausible. But I just can't prove that in Scripture because it is NOT THERE.


Turkey is north of Israel and is named several times as being part of the beast empire.
Now is the time to be the Sons of Issachar - 1 Chronicles 12:32

My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20
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