I need counsel from seasoned Christians

[TexasBeliever]

I am also a longtime Christian. Even so, I still find myself wrestling with aspects of the faith.

I have always thought for the most part, that, "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"; and that coupled with trying your best to follow the commandments, you would have no doubts about your salvation.
After re-reading what Jesus had to say to the 7 churches in revelation, and that to some who say to Him, "Lord, Lord," He will say "I never knew you," HOW can we be sure that we will not be found wanting?

The churches obviously thought they were ok, until Jesus told them otherwise.

[MuchAfraid]

I do not consider myself worthy to answer your question as I have just this week asked myself the same question!

However, does the fact that we are concerned about our faith confirm that we belong to Him? And when we feel convictions in our spirit about some aspect of our lives, don't we respond to Him? Don't we want to please Him? How can we not belong to Him then?

[notworthcomparing]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG-nDZMH1H4

I'll take a crack at this most controversial topic.

My view:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - by grace through faith -
John 3:16 - for God so love the world ... that whosoever believes -

Faith - in Greek - means - active - present tense
Believes - active - present tense

The fact that you continue to wrestle with your faith (Phil 2:12-13) means that you are continuing in your faith and belief.

2 Cor 10:5 tells us to take every thought captive.

Isn't this what Christ wants - relationship, trust, faith (w/o faith it is impossible to please - Heb 11:6)? Not some stale confession of faith, baptism (James 2:19 even the demons believe... - but they have no faith).

Romans 7 - that which I want to do I don't do... oh wretched man that I am....

This is the struggle for all of us. We take our eyes off of Him. Adam and Eve in the garden (Gen 2) took their eyes off their place. Isaiah 14 - satan wants to step out of his place. See Peter sinking, after walking on the water - he took his focus off. All of us are like sheep that have gone astray. We do it every day.

None of us struggle particularly well. We doubt. We go our own way. We continually make a mess and repeat the same old addictions.

James 2 also tells us that faith without works is dead. Works certainly don't save us, but if there are none in your life. Your faith is non existent. When you look in the rear view mirror of your life are you more like Him than you were? Then you are being conformed into His image by the Spirit (1 John 3:1-3). If the Spirit is in you (Eph 1, 2 Cor 1:20-21, 2 Cor 5:5) then you my friend are sealed, as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come - that is good news!

When you know that we are depraved and utterly filled with disobedience (Eph 2:1, Isaiah 64:6, Genesis 8:21) and know that He is Holy, Holy, Holy and you keep these two thoughts far apart (not making yourself to much and not bringing God down to some genie), praise will flow.

When we make ourselves remember then push out the darkness and are filled with the light of His truth.

[jgilberAZ]

I think we all struggle with this from time to time.

Here's what 'reassures' me ...

I know feelings lie, and we cannot rely on them (much). But, I think the difference between those who are truly saved and those who cry 'Lord, Lord' is that the truly saved truly love their Lord. Obedience follows out of love.

So, it reassures me that I know that deep in my heart, I really love my Savior.

When I can't get through singing "I love to tell the story" without bawling like a baby (especially the second verse), I know I love my Lord, and it reassures me that my faith is genuine and my salvation is secure (in HIM, no less).

We know the truth in our minds, and can take solace in that. God is faithful. We trust his promises.
But, what reassures me is the confirmation that the head knowledge has found its way into my heart, in true, unashamed love for my Lord.

But, yes, I think we all do struggle with this from time to time.

Hope this helps.

- Jeff

[Abiding in His Word]

I think we all struggle with this from time to time.

Amen....

When I can't get through singing "I love to tell the story" without bawling like a baby (especially the second verse), I know I love my Lord, and it reassures me that my faith is genuine and my salvation is secure (in HIM, no less).

That song was beautiful, jgilberAZ. Thank you.

[extravagantchristian]

I am also a longtime Christian. Even so, I still find myself wrestling with aspects of the faith.

I have always thought for the most part, that, "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved"; and that coupled with trying your best to follow the commandments, you would have no doubts about your salvation.
After re-reading what Jesus had to say to the 7 churches in revelation, and that to some who say to Him, "Lord, Lord," He will say "I never knew you," HOW can we be sure that we will not be found wanting?

The churches obviously thought they were ok, until Jesus told them otherwise.

I haven't even read the other posts on this thread yet but I'm thinking most of them are going to say some thing to the effect of, "oh it's alright, you're fine, don't worry". I'm not going to say that.

I was surrounded by Christians growing up, but I was under the impression that as long as you "accept Jesus into your heart" you'll be saved. It wasn't until I was 19 years old that I actually heard the truth from ONE person, that was Pat Robertson on the 700 club. He plainly said "you can't go to heaven unless you repent of your sins". Took me 19 years to hear that in America in a Christian Nation. My Christian family members seen me living in sin, getting DUI's and living with a man unmarried. They didn't tell me.

If I were in your shoes and feeling unsure about my salvation, I would take a good long look at my life and really think about, do I have ongoing sin in my life that I am making excuses for? That's the first thing.

Then I would ask myself, is there anything that I would not do for God? Have I surrendered my entire life to His will, not mine?

Then after that I would set aside some alone time and take this concern straight to God, because He is the ONLY one who can give you peace and assurance that you are right with Him. And when you pray, just know that He is always right there with you, and hearing everything you say. PSALM 23 "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, FOR YOU ARE WITH ME" The point is that there is never a time when He is not with us.

Be honest and pour your heart out to Him. Then wait. Just grab your Bible go get alone, start praying and tell yourself you're not going to stop praying about this until God answers you. If you feel lead to, open your bible up and skim through it and see if anything pops out at you. God likes to speak to us through His word.

Let me tell you something, the Bible says that if we keep seeking, keep knocking, and wait upon the Lord He will answer us. It's true.

But that's all you can really do. It's all about our RELATIONSHIP with Him. What's a relationship without communication? You need to get your assurance from the Lord, not from man. Don't give up praying about this until He gives you peace about it.


Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God


Luke 11:9
“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

If He doesn't answer you the first time... KEEP seeking and knocking...

Matthew 7:8-10
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?

[TexasBeliever]

Thank you all for your input. In the scriptures it says to "work out your faith with fear and trembling."
I do believe truly.
I do repent of my sins and know that I am a sinner.
But still, out of 7 churches, only ONE did He not find fault with.
He even told one that its fault was not loving as much as when they first believed.

The scriptures say that there are three possible outcomes for the believer:
1. Their various works pass through the fire unscathed and they received a reward;
2. Their works are burnt up, but they themselves are saved (but as one "fleeing through fire);
3. Or as with the churches in revelation, they are apparently unaware that they are not fit for heaven INSPITE OF THEIR BELIEF AND VARIOUS GOOD WORKS, due to something they are or arent't doing, until the Lord tells them what He is displeased with.
Therin lies the rub.

[extravagantchristian]

He even told one that its fault was not loving as much as when they first believed.

Right, that's a good point. Just so long as we know that Love is not a feeling. Cause we can't always make ourselves feel a certain way. So even if we've lost our gushy feelings towards God, we can still Love Him by our actions. By denying ourselves and taking up our cross.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

And I'd just like to throw this out there too, that sometimes people's minds can become clouded through mental illness or not thinking clearly and that can cause chronic feelings of condemnation. So it is possible that a person could be born again and living right with God and saved, but yet still be feeling condemned all the time, but the Bible says...
1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

[notworthcomparing]

Interesting how big God is:

Election vs Freewill
Faith vs Works
Eternal Security vs Endure to the end
These things have been written that you may know (1 John 5:13) vs Work out your salvation with fear and trembling
The Trinity vs The Lord thy God is one God
Suffering vs Prosperity
Financial Stewardship (Proverbs) vs Emptying yourself with wreckless abandon
Be Holy as your Heavenly Father is Holy vs All have sinned and fallen short / there is none righteous no not one

The fact that you are trying to work out your salvation, deny yourself and live life heart broken for the things that break His heart, says volumes.

We are saved by what He did and our heart to receive Him as Lord of our lives (faith).

[Abiding in His Word]

So it is possible that a person could be born again and living right with God and saved, but yet still be feeling condemned all the time...

This is so true, extravagantchristian. Perhaps to growing up in an environment that fosters feelings of guilt or words passed down that one is worthless, some need healing from that "tape" that perpetually gets played in one's mind. The transition from worthless to a royal priesthood is difficult to comprehend.

[FreeInHim]

I think we all struggle with this from time to time.

So very true! Too often I'm weighed down by these very doubts, but more so when I allow myself to get distracted by earthly things.

TexasBeliever, fwiw I'd like to point out that I've often equated the Lord saying "depart from me, ye that work iniquity" to people like Joseph Smith, Benny Hinn, and other wolves in sheep's clothing. False teachers who amass a large following of lost souls and lead them further astray, all in the name of Jesus Christ. I don't think Jesus' words are for true believers who struggle daily to bring their flesh under submission to the Lord. That's not to say we shouldn't beseech our Heavenly Father with fear and trembling, but we should also remember His immense love and grace towards us.

[soonverysoon]

Well this is how I deal with it. I just say no matter what I am God is worthy of praise. So I will praise Him and just put myself in His hands. I can't do anything about me anyway.


soonverysoon

[david]

Acts 2:21
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

I did read the other post, it depends on what passage you read.

david

remember hope resulting in faith is enough, not guilt, yet keep a short account and be of a true repentant heart.

[AndCanItBe]

Thank you all for your input. In the scriptures it says to "work out your faith with fear and trembling."
I do believe truly.
I do repent of my sins and know that I am a sinner.
But still, out of 7 churches, only ONE did He not find fault with.
He even told one that its fault was not loving as much as when they first believed.

The scriptures say that there are three possible outcomes for the believer:
1. Their various works pass through the fire unscathed and they received a reward;
2. Their works are burnt up, but they themselves are saved (but as one "fleeing through fire);
3. Or as with the churches in revelation, they are apparently unaware that they are not fit for heaven INSPITE OF THEIR BELIEF AND VARIOUS GOOD WORKS, due to something they are or arent't doing, until the Lord tells them what He is displeased with.
Therin lies the rub.

I see Jesus addressing the churches in Revelation differently than you do. What I see there is Jesus disciplining His flock. I don't mean to imply He doesn't mean what He says, but just the fact that He finds fault with them does not mean they are condemned. He starts out by telling them what they do right. If Jesus thought we could be perfect in our obedience, He wouldn't have died on the Cross. That doesn't mean we have a license to sin, but it does mean Jesus hasn't left us to ourselves. I am convicted by those letters and find them comforting at the same time.

I struggle in this area, always have. I have finally realized that my head knows that God will forgive me and I am saved, but I look at my sins sometimes, or missed opportunities and... Well, not just look, dwell, and I start to really doubt and not feel forgiven, not feel "good enough". I will start trotting out every other sin in the area to myself and then this area, and on and on. God chose not to throw those back in my face, but I am doing it to myself!

Really look and see, but don't dwell. A certain amount of remorse over our sin is, of course, right, but at some point we have to have faith we are forgiven because God said He would and shake off that accuser and get the job done. A Christian tearing their hair out and walking around in sackcloth and ashes over their sin all the time is one who is sidelined and one who ultimately is thinking, maybe not with their head, but their heart, that keeping their salvation rests on them.

I find Hebrews Chapters 11 and 12 never fail to get me to get eyes off myself and onto Jesus. Hebrews 11 is the hall of faith that reminds me God prizes faith that shows itself in action. Hebrews 12 tells me being disciplined is proof I am a child of God, now I need to remember what the race is about, stop focusing on my sin, and keep running like my forefathers before me.


I love this song too. East to West

[Spreading Salt]

I think that to say you believe in Jesus is one thing and to have an actual relationship is another. Hence the "I don't know you".

There are many types of relationships. With God, He wants intimacy. He should be paramount and first in our lives. It's hard because He is not visible and so, for the majority, it is easy to dismiss Him until He is needed. We put Him on the shelf and He collects dust until we decide He is needed. Does that make sense?

I once read a book, and I think it was in a Max Lucado something. In this book, the author described Jesus as if He was waiting for us each moment. He was pictured sitting in a chair, in a room. The room was in our house and every day, many times a day, we passed by this room. Some days, we entered into the room with Jesus and sat across from Him to chat. Some days, we passed by and glanced at Him from the hallway. Some days (most actually), we were in so much of a hurry, dither, rush, that we were running passed the room where Jesus sat (faithfully) and we didn't even glance in His direction. There was never a time when Jesus wasn't there, but there were many times when we did/didn't choose to interact with Him.

This was such an eye opener for me personally and to this day, I have a special chair in my home, where I picture my Lord and Savior. I see the chair and I picture my precious Yeshuah. It brings everything else to a standstill and reminds me to bring Him into my day.

The thing is, He is always there and He will be there when we turn to Him. He wants to be a part of every part of our lives (like a spouse - personally knowing our problems/joys). If we only call on Him in distress such as when the walls are caving in around us, then that is not enough. He is not just our saving power. He is our Friend. He is our Redeemer. He is our Lord of Lord, King of Kings. He is our Father. He is our Creator. He is our spiritual Spouse. He is the one who knows us from the inside out and the outside in. He knows every fault and every achievement. He is the one who smiles and weeps with us. The way to be in relationship with Him is to be in His Word (Bible). To be in relationship with Him is to have conversations with Him regularly (prayer).

I don't know what else to say or how else to express it, but when He is a part of your life, your heart will change. Your attitudes will change. The things you used to enjoy will change. Your music will change. Your hang outs will change. Your language will change. Your thoughts towards others will change. Your financial distributions will change. Your goals and dreams will change. You will change.

[joyfulchild]

Well what I feel you have to remember in all this is Jesus's admonition that we have faith "like a child".

Matthew 19:14 (King James Version)

14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

When we read the above we can be assured that our faith is not a overtly complex matter if children are called to Him also. Even those with mental disability can be assured of responding to the call of Jesus appropriately. Isnt this reassuring and wonderful.?

Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

To me faith like a child means trusting and responding to Jesus and His call in your heart. Having that conscience that wants to please Him. And trusting in what He did for you on the Cross. Belief that he replaced you in death on the cross and He has paid the price for your sins. TRUSTING and not fearing that you may not have done x or Y.

A simple faith that even my mentally challenged young son can understand. God be praised .

Mel

[GodsStudent]

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 6809126533

This is a fantastic sermon on the subject of salvation. I learned a lot I had never thought of when I listened to it.

[wkc]

Thank you all for your input. In the scriptures it says to "work out your faith with fear and trembling."
I do believe truly.
I do repent of my sins and know that I am a sinner.
But still, out of 7 churches, only ONE did He not find fault with.
He even told one that its fault was not loving as much as when they first believed.

The scriptures say that there are three possible outcomes for the believer:
1. Their various works pass through the fire unscathed and they received a reward;
2. Their works are burnt up, but they themselves are saved (but as one "fleeing through fire);
3. Or as with the churches in revelation, they are apparently unaware that they are not fit for heaven INSPITE OF THEIR BELIEF AND VARIOUS GOOD WORKS, due to something they are or arent't doing, until the Lord tells them what He is displeased with.
Therein lies the rub.

So ... I'd like to take a little bit of a different view, though all of the responses address the matter of knowing how we can know we are saved, and are good ones. If your question is one of assurance of your salvation, but I think you are asking how can these "churches" and thus Christians have been so off track that Jesus provides such stern warnings of their fate. It flies in the face of the notion of 'once saved, always saved'.

I take these as warnings, I have no doubt that I have been saved, none whatsoever, however, I believe that through unbelief which leads to a lifestyle of denial of Christ can lead you off the "way". Jesus, our shepherd is ever present through the Holy Spirit to guide and prod us onto the way. I believe it takes just flat-out, intentional, willful denial, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, to put our souls in danger. The OSAS mindset would say that this person was never saved to begin with, perhaps, perhaps not.

These churches were warned strongly, but only two did he threaten with eternal consequences. The church at Sardis, which apparently had a strong Christian reputation publicly, but was dead inside (reminds me of His accusation against the Pharisees, "whitewashed tombs"). And the church at Laodicea, where they were lukewarm, or rather their hearts were stone cold and they were proud themselves for their "prosperity gospel". It's not that they weren't saved.

More than any other theological stance on these letters, I take them as personal warnings, each have aspects of a Christian lifestyle that the Lord calls out. The characteristics of failure of heart of each of these churches is a threat to our "pleasing service" to the Lord.

My position, when I read these... I examine myself and trust Him to do as He says in Rev 3:19 "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline: be zealous therefore and repent."

Always keep your heart open to His instruction, He is always faithful, He is able to save to the uttermost, He will never leave or forsake you; if you know Him, you cannot be snatched out of His hand. Believe Him, and love Him and you will never, ever be in danger.

"I urge you therefore, brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Romans 12:1-2 NASB.

In conjunction with this verse, Galatians 5 gives a complete view of the differences between the deeds of the flesh (i.e. the way of the world) and the deeds of the Spirit.

I hope this helps.

Blessings,

Winnie

[4givenmuch]

Many great things to think about posted at this link, my encouragement would be to pray and ask Him to check your heart. Are you denying yourself and acting out of love for Him. If you are not, He will gently show you! John 14:2
"In My Father's house are many mansions; [fn] if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [fn


He has given me this verse when I was in doubt- He loves us so much, He would tell us (just like He did in the letters to the churches) so that we could make a course adjustment to get back on the right track!

Bless you for asking- that shows your heart!

[M.C.Nige]

After re-reading what Jesus had to say to the 7 churches in revelation, and that to some who say to Him, "Lord, Lord," He will say "I never knew you," HOW can we be sure that we will not be found wanting?

It's all about our RELATIONSHIP with Him.

Agreed! Jesus said, "I never knew you", so they were never in relationship with Him in the first place.

Contrast this with the parable of the Prodigal Son. At no stage did he stop being the son of his father. This is indicated in the dialogue when the son returns home, e.g.

• v21: And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son'
  
  
• v24: 'for this my son as dead and is alive again; ...

Perhaps it is the enemy who wants us to keep on doubting our salvation? That way, we cannot rest, spiritually speaking. Also, it becomes about us, rather than what the Lord Jesus Christ has already accomplished at the cross.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I just finished a study on 2 Peter chapter one. It really is a lesson on sanctification. I think part of the problem with the church today is our understanding of what salvation is. We have reduced it to the so-called "sinner's prayer". The point is that salvation is more than lip service. As others here have said repentance is key, followed by putting God's word into practice. You must believe with your heart, not just your words. Anyone can say they believe without a changed heart. But one whose heart truly believes will demonstrate that belief in his life, by striving to live in a manner that is consistent with God's word, and with the power of the Holy Spirit, they will live to become more and more like Christ as they persevere in their faith. Investing the word of God in their own growth and eventually into the growth of the faith of others, this is what the parable of the ten talents is about.

The letters in the book of Revelation are written to local churches, this is the lampstand, the physical vehicle on earth used to hold up the lamp or light of God's word. Not all who are associated with the lampstand are true light bearers. There are many so-called believers, who really do not believe. The admonishment to those who are shown to be wanting is to repent of those deeds which are inconsistent with one who truly believes. Are they forgetful hearers or effectual doers? To Ephesus he writes that they have lost their first love, to Pergamum he writes that they commit acts of immorality and eat food sacrificed to idols, to Thyatira that they tolerate false prophets and teachers, they also commit acts of immorality and eat food sacrificed to idols, those at Sardis are told they are dead- asleep and that they need to wake up or else. Laodicea has grown complacent, wealthy and sluggish neither repentant or productive. All these works or inconsistent with God's word, they demonstrate that they are not trully saved. However there are those who are among them that are told that they are not in need of repentance. The point is that not everyone who claims to be a follower of Christ, who attends the local church is part of the body of Christ or the universal church.

Look at the qualities Peter lists in 2 Peter chapter one, are these qualities yours? Are you growing in them? If so, then you have nothing to fear. If you are truly saved- the Holy Spirit who supplies us with everything we need- the divine nature of Christ who we are clothed with- will work to produce this fruit in your life. But you must repent and put on Christ. Without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

RT

[GodsStudent]

I just finished a study on 2 Peter chapter one. It really is a lesson on sanctification. I think part of the problem with the church today is our understanding of what salvation is. We have reduced it to the so-called "sinner's prayer". The point is that salvation is more than lip service. As others here have said repentance is key, followed by putting God's word into practice. You must believe with your heart, not just your words. Anyone can say they believe without a changed heart. But one whose heart truly believes will demonstrate that belief in his life, by striving to live in a manner that is consistent with God's word, and with the power of the Holy Spirit, they will live to become more and more like Christ as they persevere in their faith. Investing the word of God in their own growth and eventually into the growth of the faith of others, this is what the parable of the ten talents is about.

The letters in the book of Revelation are written to local churches, this is the lampstand, the physical vehicle on earth used to hold up the lamp or light of God's word. Not all who are associated with the lampstand are true light bearers. There are many so-called believers, who really do not believe. The admonishment to those who are shown to be wanting is to repent of those deeds which are inconsistent with one who truly believes. Are they forgetful hearers or effectual doers? To Ephesus he writes that they have lost their first love, to Pergamum he writes that they commit acts of immorality and eat food sacrificed to idols, to Thyatira that they tolerate false prophets and teachers, they also commit acts of immorality and eat food sacrificed to idols, those at Sardis are told they are dead- asleep and that they need to wake up or else. Laodicea has grown complacent, wealthy and sluggish neither repentant or productive. All these works or inconsistent with God's word, they demonstrate that they are not trully saved. However there are those who are among them that are told that they are not in need of repentance. The point is that not everyone who claims to be a follower of Christ, who attends the local church is part of the body of Christ or the universal church.

Look at the qualities Peter lists in 2 Peter chapter one, are these qualities yours? Are you growing in them? If so, then you have nothing to fear. If you are truly saved- the Holy Spirit who supplies us with everything we need- the divine nature of Christ who we are clothed with- will work to produce this fruit in your life. But you must repent and put on Christ. Without repentance, there is no forgiveness.

RT

Excellent, Excellent post, RT!

[soonverysoon]

I think the most important thing to remember is who Jesus is and what He can do. And not what we think. Jesus paid the price for sin. Thats it, nothing else matters. He did it I accept it. That makes us cover, free from sin. Nothing we can do will make us worth the price Jesus paid. It is a free gift just for the asking. But it is all Jesus who takes away our sins. So to worry about our part in it is to say Jesus did not do a good enough job.

If you ask Him to save you and believe He covers sin with His own blood. Then you are saved. If you mess up you are still saved. Jesus knew who we are before he died on the cross. He is not blind to who He saves. But He paid the price and we are clean now. And it has nothing at all to do with us other then just accepting it.

His blood is not like the lamb for only a year to cover sin but for always. The blood of Christ Jesus is stronger then our sin. So if I do something wrong or in my mind I don't add up to what I feel God would have me to be. I just say sorry Lord, show me your ways and help me to do them. Thank you for saving me. Then there is peace.

soonverysoon