Is the 70th wk complete after the Millennial Reign?

[Mr Baldy]

In reference to the Subject "question" of this thread, I want to provide a few Scriptures, and perhaps provoke a few thoughts on this matter.

First, we have to view the six (6) requirements that are to be completed within the 70 weeks. The six (6) requirements are in Daniel 9:24 which reads:

24) “ Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

(1) To finish the transgression,
(2) To make an end of sins,
(3) To make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) To bring in everlasting righteousness,
(5) To seal up vision and prophecy,
(6) And to anoint the Most Holy.

Verse 25 - 27 are as follows:

25) “ Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.

26) “ And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

There has been a lot of speculation as far as believing that the 70 weeks that have been determined, have to be completed prior to the Return of Christ. After viewing Scripture.......I really wonder.

Daniel 9:24 gives the six (6) requirements that will have been completed by the 70th week. After reading the entire passage of Daniel 9:24-27, I ask: Where is the Return of Christ mentioned?

Now let's compare the six (6) requirements that are listed in Daniel 9:24 - that shall be completed in the 70 weeks given; and see how the Millennial Reign of Christ ties into all of this.

I believe we get our clue in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - which reads:

20) But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27) For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28) Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

After reading 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 I believe that this provides clear evidence that sin, death, and rebellion will continue even in the Millennial Kingdom. This is further very clear evidence that the six requirements in Daniel 9:24 will NOT have been completed even during the Millennial Reign. The requirements will ALL be met AFTER Chirst "has put all enemies under His feet" - and He must Reign on Earth in order to do this. The last enemy to be destroyed is "Death". Again, Scripture is very clear about this.

Now to those of you who are considering a specific number of days.....well, have you considered why Scripture mentions that: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)?

Now after reading that 1,000 years is "as" one day with the Lord, and taking in consideration that He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet; death, sin, and rebellion will be continious during His Reign on Earth; and the six (6) requirements that must be met in order that the 70 weeks are determined - and the fact that the "last" enemy to be destroyed is "death"; then I am suggesting that the entire 70 week period may not be completed until the Millennial Reign of Chirst is done. The 1,000 years - as it relates to the 70 weeks, may only be counted "as" one day.

I'm not dogmatic about this view - but in my very humble opinion, it certainly sounds plausible. Again, I just wanted to pose this question to the members of this Board, who may have a broader understanding.

What say ye?

[Loop]

Zechariah 14:
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

This is a future Prophecy..

[Keeping Alert]

Now to those of you who are considering a specific number of days.....well, have you considered why Scripture mentions that: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)?

Now after reading that 1,000 years is "as" one day with the Lord, and taking in consideration that He must reign until all enemies are put under His feet; death, sin, and rebellion will be continious during His Reign on Earth; and the six (6) requirements that must be met in order that the 70 weeks are determined - and the fact that the "last" enemy to be destroyed is "death"; then I am suggesting that the entire 70 week period may not be completed until the Millennial Reign of Chirst is done. The 1,000 years - as it relates to the 70 weeks, may only be counted "as" one day.

I'm not dogmatic about this view - but in my very humble opinion, it certainly sounds plausible. Again, I just wanted to pose this question to the members of this Board, who may have a broader understanding.

What say ye?

Hi Mr Baldy,

I would say that it may be plausible except that putting a 1000-year as 1 day into the calculation would feel a bit inconsistent... I mean if there is a 1000 years counted as 1 day, then how are we to know if there are not other 1000 year periods in between... and that would create a lot of uncertainty, wouldn't it? I personally feel things are much more simpler than we would often make things out to be.

Blessings,
KA

[Mr Baldy]

I would say that it may be plausible except that putting a 1000-year as 1 day into the calculation would feel a bit inconsistent... I mean if there is a 1000 years counted as 1 day, then how are we to know if there are not other 1000 year periods in between... and that would create a lot of uncertainty, wouldn't it? I personally feel things are much more simpler than we would often make things out to be.

Hi KA, and thank you for your response.

Let me say that the only time that Scripture indicates that 1,000 year period, in comparison to one day, is when Peter refers it to time "being with Chirst" - and that will occur in the Millennial Kingdom. "The Eternal State" - occurs when Christ has put an end to sin, death, and rebellion will come AFTER He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, so that God will be all in all. This is the purpose of His Reign. The Eternal State has no time period - but again, Christ must Reign on Earth prior to this, in order to bring in Everlasting Righteousness. I believe, based on Scripture, this is His sole purpose for the Millennial Kingdom in the first place.

As far as "feeling a bit inconsistent" - well it's really not about how we "feel" about what is written in Scripture, but what is actually written. Those who currently prophesy about End Time events, and have wrote subsequent books, and/or have given sermons, and teachings on this particular topic, have primarily done so based on how they "feel" the End Time events will take place, or unfold. They have created a "mind-set" (in my very humble opinion) that has caused those who have been unwilling to challenge these particular teachings to just accept what comes from their thoughts, and faulty interpretation. These so-called teachings may not necessarily be true.

So we have to be very careful about our "feelings" as they relate to how we interpret Scripture.

[Spreading Salt]

KA wrote:

I mean if there is a 1000 years counted as 1 day, then how are we to know if there are not other 1000 year periods in between...

Perhaps there are. How do we explain this huge "gap" between the 69th and 70th? As mere humans, we cannot possibly comprehend God's timing. It is certainly encouraging and uplifting to all of us to try to reason through the various timing and try to sleuth and deduce His plans, but come on. He is beyond our understanding. One day, we will know and I have a feeling that many of us will have a tiny little piece of this complicated puzzle figured out. He will show us in unison how it all worked out and He will be glorified by our attempts.

I think you are right Mr. B. There will be sin in the Mil. Yeshua will be there ruling with a rod of iron. True redemption will not come until the end of the 1000 years and then, the New Heavens and Earth.

[Jay Ross]

Hello

The question is difficult to answer because the number of years associated with an age, i.e. the Millennium Age is 1,000 years that Satan is in the Bottomless Pit plus the time of the "little while" after he is released where he goes and enters into a covenant relationship with the people and nations at the four corners of the earth. [Rev 20] My research would indicate that the length of an age is closer to 1,024 years in length which would suggest that the "little while" of Rev 20:3.

If we accept that there will be seven ages then does the Bible indicate what the total length of time will be from Adam's creation until the Final Judgement? I believe that the prophecy found in Ez 47:1-12 indicate that there will be 4,000 years from the time that God inhabits the Holy of holies of Solomon's temple until the end of the river that flows out from under the Altar in the temple. If this is added to the year after Adam's creation as to when Solomon's temple was dedicated we will find that we will add the year 3,168 AA when the temple was dedicate to the 4,000 years indicated in Ez 47:1-12 and obtain by addition 7,168 years. Dividing that by 7 the average length of an age should then be 1,024 years in length.

Now looking at Daniel 9:26:b we read, "and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed." we have to ask ourselves the question, "Has the end yet come for this prophecy?"

I do not believe so. If the prophecy of Daniel 26b has not yet run its full course, then the prophecy of Daniel 2:27 cannot begin. However when the Prophecy of Daniel 9:26b ends, Satan is thrown out of Heaven and immediately locked up in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years by an angel. [Rev 20:1-3]

Also if we look at Daniel 9:27 we see that the Judgement of the desolator, that is Satan happens at the end of the "70th week" and we know from Daniel 7:26 tells us that his dominion has be taken away from him and it is to be consumed and destroyed to the end. Also Revelation 20:7-15 tells us the following: -

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So the Devil is Judged just before all the dead and people are judged. It is my view that the great throne judgements happen at the very beginning of Eternity or so close to that time that it is impossible to distinguish between the end of the Millennium age and the beginning of Eternity.

Another Clue is found in Daniel 11: -
Daniel 11:32-45

but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action. 33 And those among the people who are wise shall make many understand, though they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plunder, for some days. 34 When they fall, they shall receive a little help. And many shall join themselves to them with flattery; 35 and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed. {A description of the redemption of Israel}

36 "And the king shall do according to his will; he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He shall prosper till the indignation is accomplished; for what is determined shall be done. 37 He shall give no heed to the gods of his fathers, or to the one beloved by women; he shall not give heed to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 He shall honor the god of fortresses instead of these; a god whom his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god; those who acknowledge him he shall magnify with honor. He shall make them rulers over many and shall divide the land for a price.

40 "At the time of the end the king of the south shall attack him; but the king of the north shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through. 41 He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the precious things of Egypt; and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall follow in his train. 44 But tidings from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go forth with great fury to exterminate and utterly destroy many. 45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.

Notice again that the Desolating King Satan begins his reign after Israel has been redeemed and also after he has been released from the Bottomless Pit and that when his end shall come there will be none to help him.

From these scriptures, I would suggest that the 70th week occurs during the last seven years of the little while which is IMHO 24 years in length.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Jay Ross,

If I may, I would like to comment on a few things that you have posted, as some of them are of interest and could very well edify the Body of Christ - and some of them need further explanation.

First let me begin by quoting you on this:

he question is difficult to answer because the number of years associated with an age, i.e. the Millennium Age is 1,000 years that Satan is in the Bottomless Pit plus the time of the "little while" after he is released where he goes and enters into a covenant relationship with the people and nations at the four corners of the earth. [Rev 20] My research would indicate that the length of an age is closer to 1,024 years in length which would suggest that the "little while" of Rev 20:3.

I agree with you, the topic of this thread is a very difficult question to answer, but the question is not how an "age" is associated with the number of years - because we absolutely cannot verify that without pure speculation, and that would be speculation without, at least the support of Scripture. The question relates to how Scripture has provided us with clues that may represent the timing of the 70th week, and it's potential conclusiveness with the Millennial Reign of Christ - which most have drawn positions of the timing of the Rapture on, in that they believe that the six (6) requirements of Daniel 9:24 will have to be met prior to the Return of Chirst. That is why I have posed this particular question to this Board.

I also find it very interesting that you associate the Millennial Reign of Christ, and call it the "Millennium Age" and tie it into both the timing that Satan is in the Bottomless Pit; and the "little while" that he is released to deceive the Nations. This may be a true assessment, in that Scripture is clear that Satan is released AFTER the 1,000 have expired, and no particular additional "time period" is given that he will be able to deceive the Nations, in which sin, rebellion, and death still occurs. (Revelation 20:7) However, you add to Scripture by stating that your "research" indicates the "length of an age is closer to 1, 024 years" With all due respect Jay Ross, let's let Scripture speak for itself, and not ADD to it, or TAKE AWAY from it - as Revelation 22:18 gives a "Warning" to those who do such a thing. The timing of what Scripture calls a "little while" or a "little season" in some translations is NOT given - so therefore it would be wrong to speculate, at least, without the support of Scripture to back your claim.

Then you provide this most excellent question:

Now looking at Daniel 9:26:b we read, "and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed." we have to ask ourselves the question, "Has the end yet come for this prophecy?"

If you'll notice in Daniel 9:26, three predictions are made: 1) The city and the sanctuary will be destroyed by the "people" of the prince who is to come (happened in 70 AD); 2) Its end - (meaning the 2nd temple) shall come like a flood; and 3) To the end there shall be war; desolation's are decreed - (This is future). So to answer your question...no the end has not completely been fulfilled in this prophecy.

Now the question becomes......when exactly does the 70th week Start? Because if we look at the last portion of the statement made in Daniel 9:27 which reads:

"Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

This final portion in Daniel 9:27 works in conjunction with 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - and Revelation 20:7-15 (in which you have provided). In that Christ will absolutely have to Reign until he has put all enemies under his feet - to include death; which won't cease until AFTER His Reign. This includes the final Gog/Magog war, (when Satan is let loose from prison); and the Great White Throne Judgment -at which point, afterwards, He turns the Kingdom back over to God the Father, so that God may be all in all.

So when you say this:

From these scriptures, I would suggest that the 70th week occurs during the last seven years of the little while which is IMHO 24 years in length.

I would respond and say that first, you are basing this on pure speculation on an unnamed; perhaps even an unreliable source; as it absolutely cannot be supported with Scripture - so I would have to very respectfully disagree the the 70th week occurs during the last seven (7) years of the so-called "little while" time period of 24 years that you give. This now seriously raises another question, that being" At what point does the 70th actually week begin?

I would love to hear anyone's input on this very important question - and please provide Scripture.

[Jay Ross]

My Dear Mr Baldy,

Is Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 20:7-10 describing the same event?

If it is not then when do you want the "70th week" to occur, at the end of this present age or the end of the next age?

As regards to the length of time of the "little while" of Revelation 20:3, you are right, the verse is silent as to its actual duration however, my suggestion that it is of the order of 24 years has not taken away or added anything to the scripture as you are suggesting as I am acknowledging that the time span does exists and that it has some discrete length, (which I have suggested is 24 years), which allows/enables a number of events to occur as described in Daniel 7, 9, 11 and Rev 20.

As regards to the length of the Messianic Reign/kingdom, we are told that it is an everlasting kingdom/reign that has a time span that is outside of our comprehension. Rev 20:4, 6 tells us that the 144,000 who are resurrected will reign with Christ for a 1,000 years but these two verses do not suggest that Christ's reign is cut short in any way or that it ends at the conclusion of the 1,000 years that the 144,000 reign with Christ does.

There is an interesting messianic verse prophecy found in Ps 45:17 which tells us that Christ will be remembered for two ages and then worshipped for one age and is then silent as to what happens in the next age after the age when Christ will be worshipped. I know that this might seem to be off topic but unless we put all of the events onto a common timeline, we cannot make sense of when a particular event takes place if it is viewed independently of all the other events. The Daniel 9:27 prophetic verse has associativity, relativity and intimate relationships with other biblical prophesies and unless we understand these links and ties it becomes very difficult to establish when one particular prophecy will occur in isolation.

Mr Badly you wrote, and I quote: -

I would respond and say that first, you are basing this on pure speculation on an unnamed; perhaps even an unreliable source; as it absolutely cannot be supported with Scripture - so I would have to very respectfully disagree the the 70th week occurs during the last seven (7) years of the so-called "little while" time period of 24 years that you give.

which describes many theories that man has come up with to explain what they expect will occur during God's unfolding plan for man's salvation. This statement in its own context is speculation on your part and does not invalidate what I have present and provides no substantiating evidence to disprove what I had posted.

Mr badly, could the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 occur during the period mentioned in Revelation 20:3 of the "little while/short time/little season?" If it could, does it? If it does not then why doesn't it?

Oh scripture support might be helpful.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Mr Baldy]

Mr Jay Ross

Thank you for your response, now I will attempt to answer and/or respond to some of the information and/or questions that you have.......

Is Daniel 9:27 and Revelation 20:7-10 describing the same event? If it is not then when do you want the "70th week" to occur, at the end of this present age or the end of the next age?

Let me say that I really don't understand your question(s) here, as the Subject mater of this thread specifically asks if the 70th week is complete after the Millennial Reign of Christ. Because of your responses, a new question arose as to when the 70th week may actually begin. Let me do say that I believe that we are in agreement that at the very least, that the 70th week may conclude at some point AFTER Christ has Returned to Earth.

As regards to the length of time of the "little while" of Revelation 20:3, you are right, the verse is silent as to its actual duration however, my suggestion that it is of the order of 24 years has not taken away or added anything to the scripture as you are suggesting as I am acknowledging that the time span does exists and that it has some discrete length, (which I have suggested is 24 years), which allows/enables a number of events to occur as described in Daniel 7, 9, 11 and Rev 20.

Now, the aforementioned comments that you have made Mr Jay Ross sir; in that you have applied a 24 year time span to what a "little while" means - without supplying one shred of Scriptural evidence to your analysis, is indeed adding to Scripture. I believe that your intentions are good, in that you recognize that there is "some discrete length" as Scripture does, but you do err because in your own thinking you believe that this time period "allows /enables a number of events to occur"; without having one iota of Scripture to support what you believe. So you have figured out exactly what a "little while" is huh? Interesting..........

Mr badly, could the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 occur during the period mentioned in Revelation 20:3 of the "little while/short time/little season?" If it could, does it? If it does not then why doesn't it? Oh scripture support might be helpful.

Jay Ross.....glad you aked my opinion


My answer is NO.

Now I will explain my answer..... First of all, what you have failed to realize is that Christ HAS to Reign until He has put all enemies under His feet - the last enemy to be destroyed is death. If you had read what I previously posted, you would have plainly saw that I provided 1 Corinthians 15:20-28.

In providing 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, and providing the six (6) requirements listed in Daniel 9:24 - that complete the history of the entire 70 weeks, one would see that Chirst is ruling on Earth as He is bringing this new age under His subjection. The problem we have is that death, sin, and rebellion continues from the previous World age - in that those who survive the Great Tribulation are allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom - (Zechariah 14:16); have offspring that are sinful, and they come against the Saints and the "beloved city", after they are deceived by Satan when he is released from prison, after serving a 1,000 year sentence. (Revelation 20:7-9)

This Mr Jay Ross, would mean that the 70th week would have to had started sometime prior to the "24 year" time span that you have given for the "little while" that Satan is let loose. You see, when Jesus Returns, He is ushering in, and/or fulfilling the requirements listed in Daniel 9:24. This continues through Revelation 20:9-15; in that it is clear that Satan is destroyed, along with those who rebelled against Chirst - the White Throne Judgement is complete, and Death and Hades are all cast into the Lake of Fire.

Then, we have Jesus saying ''IT IS DONE!" This is found in Revelation 21:6.

Christ then hands the Kingdom back over to God the Father - as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:24 - All things are made New, we are now in an Eternal State; with the New Jerusalem as our Home.

Is that enough Scripture for ya?

[Jay Ross]

my dear Mr Badly

Your post above has raised a number of questions that are pertinent to the original question.

* Is Daniel 9:24-27, one prophecy or does it contain four separate prophecies?
* Do the first two prophesies run concurrently and then ended around the about the same time?
* Does the third prophecy follow the first two prophesies fairly immediately and will it span a period of around two ages?
* Does the fourth prophecy immediately follow the third prophecy or is there a time gap of around 1,000 years between the third and the fourth prophecy?

* When Jesus was asked the question of how many times should a brother be forgiven, was he referring to Daniel 9:24 when he gave his answer in the following passage: -

Matthew 18:21-22: - Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

* When Jesus was on the cross and He said, "It is finished," was he referring to Daniel 9:25-26a?

* When Jesus said the following: -

Matthew 11:25-30: - At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

was he thinking about Daniel 9:26b when He offered the Jews alive at that time, a lighter yoke to wear than the heavy yoke from God that was to shortly come upon them for their continuing open idolatry which will eventually bring about a change in their heart and repentance for their sin?

* When Jesus said the following: -

Matthew 24:15-22: - "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

was he making a reference to Daniel 9:27?

I look forward to reading your response,

Perhaps after we have agreed on the above questions, we can get back to the original.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[The Orange Mailman]

my dear Mr Badly

Hey Jay-

Just to let you know, Mr. Badly was banned several years ago because, well, he was acting badly. Mr. Baldy on the other hand, is a really nice guy who still posts here. He loves being bald and usually behaves himself.

I'm sure this is a typo and thought we could have a little laugh.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Keeping Alert]

[1whowaits]

Mr Badly/Baldy, to your original question, in Dan 9 the 70 weeks end with the desolator, the AC, coming to his end. According to Rev the AC comes to his end at armageddon. From Zech 14, Joel 3 and 2 Peter, it appears that armageddon and the millenium are considered to be part of the same period of time, the DOTL, which appears to last for 1,000 years.

So as the 70 weeks end at armageddon, and armageddon is considered to be part of the DOTL that lasts for 1,000 years, one could view the 70 weeks as ending at the end of the DOTL, if the DOTL is viewed as a single unit of time, which it appears to be.

[Mr Baldy]

He loves being bald and usually behaves himself.

Now this made me laugh!

I do USUALLY behave myself, but I do have my moments

OM you have a great memory, perhaps this is why I personally believe that you excel in your words of wisdom to others, as it relates to Eternal Life. Keep up the good work!

[Mr Baldy]

it appears that armageddon and the millenium are considered to be part of the same period of time, the DOTL, which appears to last for 1,000 years.

Dear Brother 1whowaits...........

As I believe that you may know from our previous discussions, and/or debates I have always mentioned the fact that you love to use adjectives; such as: "may"; "might be" "appears"; "could be"; "possible"....etc. This time I believe that you may be on to something.

However..........

"If "Armageddon and the Millennial Reign are considered to be part of the same time period - that being the DAY OF THE LORD - and this is when the coming Antichrist comes to his demise; subsequently ending the 70th week - then what you are actually saying is that the "little while" that Satan is let loose from his prison is not apart of this same time period?

You must remember that Scripture states that AFTER the 1,000 year have expired, "Satan will be released from his prison". (Revelation 20:7)

If you are saying this, then this would actually contradict 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - because sin would still exist; which causes death, and Christ MUST rule until He has conquered this last enemy - which is death. This is also one of the 6 requirements that will have to be fulfilled by the close of the 70 weeks, according to Daniel 9:24.

Do you have a better response?

[1whowaits]

Mr. Baldy, i am not sure a better response is needed, perhaps a more complete explanation of the previous response will answer your question.

I believe the scriptures i have listed explain the question you have. Joel 3 and Zech 14 describe what appears to be armageddon and the millenium and calls this the DOTL. So the DOTL begins at armageddon, there is a period of time prior to the 1,000 years (likely short), that is included in the overall DOTL.

2 Peter 3 also describes the DOTL that will 'come like a thief', an apparent reference to Jesus' coming like a thief mentioned in Matt 24, and Jesus' statement in Rev 16 that He comes like a thief as the armies gather for armageddon. So the DOTL includes Jesus' return, which occurs at armageddon, which is consistent with Zech 14 and Joel 3, which preceeds the 1,000 years.

2 Peter 3 also includes in its mention of the DOTL- 'the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire; and the earth and everything in it wil be laid bare...that day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his prominse we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth...'

2 Peter includes in its description of the DOTL the destruction of the earth and heaven and a new heaven and earth, which in Rev 20-21 occurs after the 1,000 years, at the time of the GWTJ. So it would appear that the DOTL, 'that day', includes the destruction of the heavens and earth and the making of the new earth and heavens, and the GWTJ which is described as occurring at that time.

And after the GWTJ and the making of the new heaven and new earth, the things to be fulfilled during the 70 weeks would be fulfilled and completed.

So the DOTL includes armageddon and a period of time prior to the 1,000 years, the 1,000 years, and a period of time after the 1,000 years, which includes the GWTJ and the new heavens and earth. We use the time period of 1,000 years for convenience, but it would appear from scripture that the DOTL is somewhat longer than just 1,000 years by an unknown period of time.


The DOTL is referred to be different terms- the day, the last day, the end of the days, the end of the age. It appears that the end of the age can also be interpreted as the 'consummation', as in Matt 28 'I am with you always, to the consummation' (end of the age) (sunteleia). The term consummation refers to the completion of the present age and the beginning of a new one, and is also used in the KJV interpretation of Dan 9:27- 'even until the consummation' in reference to the pouring out on the desolator, the AC.

So it may be even in Dan 9:27 a reference is made to the 'consummation', the end of the age, the DOTL.

[Mr Baldy]

perhaps a more complete explanation of the previous response will answer your question.

Hi 1whowaits,

I want to thank you for taking the time to share this with me, as well as others who may be viewing this thread. I believe your explanation is spot on, and it only confirms what I have been thinking for quite some time.

May God continue you bless you with wisdom!

[milo3]

perhaps a more complete explanation of the previous response will answer your question.

Hi 1whowaits,

I want to thank you for taking the time to share this with me, as well as others who may be viewing this thread. I believe your explanation is spot on, and it only confirms what I have been thinking for quite some time.

May God continue you bless you with wisdom!

Good conversation guys, you have given me much to consider.

milo3

[1whowaits]

Mr Baldy, thanks, i am glad i could be of assistance.

[Keeping Alert]

2 Peter 3 also describes the DOTL that will 'come like a thief', an apparent reference to Jesus' coming like a thief mentioned in Matt 24, and Jesus' statement in Rev 16 that He comes like a thief as the armies gather for armageddon. So the DOTL includes Jesus' return, which occurs at armageddon, which is consistent with Zech 14 and Joel 3, which preceeds the 1,000 years.

I would add that the famous "one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day" (verse 8) is related to the description of the DOTL in verse 10. So I believe that Peter is trying to say that the DOTL is actually 1000 years but counted as a day to the Lord.

Nevertheless, I just want to make a point that 2Peter 3:10 does not say that the DOTL starts when Jesus comes back as a thief in the night. It says that the day comes as a thief in the night. And that day is described with more clarity in 1Thessolonians 5:2-3 (When they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them...)

So Jesus' coming back as a thief in the night is part of a continuum of events in the DOTL which starts when all seems peaceful then BANG!

[Mr Baldy]

2 Peter 3 also describes the DOTL that will 'come like a thief', an apparent reference to Jesus' coming like a thief mentioned in Matt 24, and Jesus' statement in Rev 16 that He comes like a thief as the armies gather for armageddon. So the DOTL includes Jesus' return, which occurs at armageddon, which is consistent with Zech 14 and Joel 3, which preceeds the 1,000 years.

I would add that the famous "one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day" (verse 8) is related to the description of the DOTL in verse 10. So I believe that Peter is trying to say that the DOTL is actually 1000 years but counted as a day to the Lord.

Nevertheless, I just want to make a point that 2Peter 3:10 does not say that the DOTL starts when Jesus comes back as a thief in the night. It says that the day comes as a thief in the night. And that day is described with more clarity in 1Thessolonians 5:2-3 (When they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them...)

So Jesus' coming back as a thief in the night is part of a continuum of events in the DOTL which starts when all seems peaceful then BANG!

This is great information that both of you have provided. Perhaps this information can add some clarity to the understanding of the very most often missunderstood prophecy in Ezekiel 38 & 39. Some believe that the events described in Ezekiel 38 & 39 will happen prior to the Church being Raptured. After continious studies, I'm not so sure about that.

Understanding the what the DOTL is, what it includes, and it's duration, is key to learning what the entire 70 weeks means, and what it is all about.

[1whowaits]

There is some disagreement on when the DOTL begins, i will offer my opinion that looking at the scriptures that describe the DOTL it does appear to begin at armageddon. The OT scriptures repeatedly use the term DOTL and refer to the signs of the DOTL, the sun and moon being darkened, and all nations being gathered to Jerusalem, God (Jesus) returning and destroying the gathered nations, and Israel being rescued and restored. (Joel 3, Zech 14).

These passages intermingle the description of armageddon and the DOTL with events consistent with the millenium, as if the events occurred on the same day. This would appear to be consistent with Peter's and Moses' statement of 1,000 years being like a day, as it does appear that the DOTL continues for over 1,000 years, it is the time of Jesus' reign, it is His 'day'.

Jesus associates His return with the sun and moon being darkened, He associates the signs of the DOTL with His return. And Jesus associates His coming 'like a thief' with this return in Matt 24, and Jesus then states that He is coming like a thief as the armies gather for armageddon in Rev 16, Jesus directly links His 'coming like a thief' with armageddon and the DOTL, when the sun and moon are darkened, after the time of distress.

So it appears that Peter, in 2 Peter, is describing the beginning and ending points of the DOTL, the 'coming like a thief' is Jesus' reference to His return at armageddon, and the 'earth being burned' would be a reference to the time of the GWTJ over 1,000 years later and the end of the DOTL.

Isa 2 refers to men hiding in the rocks when God comes and that on that 'day' only God will be exalted, all others will be humbled. It is only at armageddon that God alone is exalted and all others are humbled, prior to that time man and Satan exalt themselves.

Also in Matt 24, the discussion is about Jesus' return and the end of the age. The 'end of the age' can also be interpreted as the 'consummation', the concept being that the present age is completed (consummated) and a new age is beginning. The time when the present age is completed and a new age is begun is at armageddon when Jesus returns and the millenium begins. The current age does not end at the beginning of the 70th week, nor does the new age begin at the beginning of the 70th week, both occur at the end of the 70th week.

The end of the age, the end of the days, the end, the day, the DOTL begins when the Lord returns, when He alone is exalted, when the current age ends and the new age begins, and that occurs at armageddon, at the end of the 70th week.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

24) “ Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

(1) To finish the transgression,
(2) To make an end of sins,
(3) To make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) To bring in everlasting righteousness,
(5) To seal up vision and prophecy,
(6) And to anoint the Most Holy.

__________________
After reading 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 I believe that this provides clear evidence that sin, death, and rebellion will continue even in the Millennial Kingdom. This is further very clear evidence that the six requirements in Daniel 9:24 will NOT have been completed even during the Millennial Reign. The requirements will ALL be met AFTER Chirst "has put all enemies under His feet" - and He must Reign on Earth in order to do this. The last enemy to be destroyed is "Death". Again, Scripture is very clear about this.

Hi Mr. Baldy, this is an interesting thread, I see that the requirements will be met prior to the millennial reign. Or at it's very start- Even though sin will still be present during it as well as death. I will do my best to explain.

The prophecy in Daniel concerns the nation of Israel and Jerusalem:

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

so the first thing is that these requirements are for Israel and they apply to the spiritual condition of Israel itself as a nation and Jerusalem - the Holy City. The question is whether finishing the transgression and making an end to sin applies to all people during the millennium, and I would say no, it applies to Israel- Daniel's people and those dwellers of the Holy City- earthly Jerusalem (not to be confused with New Jerusalem in heaven).

The book of Zechariah explains how these requirements will be fulfilled.

to finish the transgression,

Zechariah 13:1-2
1 “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.
2 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.

to make atonement for iniquity,

Zechariah 12:10
10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Zechariah 13:6
6 “And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

to bring in everlasting righteousness,

Zechariah 8:2-8
2 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I am exceedingly jealous for Zion, yes, with great wrath I am jealous for her.’
3 “Thus says the Lord, ‘I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the Lord of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.’
4 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Old men and old women will again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each man with his staff in his hand because of age.
5 ‘And the streets of the city will be filled with boys and girls playing in its streets.’
6 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘If it is too difficult in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, will it also be too difficult in My sight?’ declares the Lord of hosts.
7 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘Behold, I am going to save My people from the land of the east and from the land of the west;
8 and I will bring them back and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.’

Zechariah 13:2
2 “It will come about in that day,” declares the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.

Zechariah 13:9
9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name, And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’ ”

to seal up vision and prophecy

Zechariah 13:3
3 “And if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who gave birth to him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, for you have spoken falsely in the name of the Lord’; and his father and mother who gave birth to him will pierce him through when he prophesies.

and to anoint the most holy place.

Zechariah 14:9-11
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.
10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses.
11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Zechariah 14:20-21
20 In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.

Zechariah also gives the context of when this fulfillment will happen- "in that day" Zechariah describes a time when the Lord will battle Israel's foes, after Israel has emerged from the refining process of the tribulation:

Zechariah 12:9
9 “And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:1-21
1 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.
7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.
10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses.
11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.
12 Now this will be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
13 It will come about in that day that a great panic from the Lord will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
15 So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
20 In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.

Israel's transgression was their rebellion against God, in particular idol worship among other transgressions of the law.
The prophecy in Daniel 9 came as a result of Daniel's prayer in the verses just prior, in which Daniel confesses the sins of Israel to God, the prophecy of the 70 weeks directly correlates to Daniel's prayer on behalf of his nation- Israel:

Daniel 9:8-19
8 “Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You.
9 “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him;
10 nor have we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His teachings which He set before us through His servants the prophets.
11 “Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.
12 “Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.
13 “As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come on us; yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our iniquity and giving attention to Your truth.
14 “Therefore the Lord has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the Lord our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.
15 “And now, O Lord our God, who have brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and have made a name for Yourself, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have been wicked.
16 “O Lord, in accordance with all Your righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach to all those around us.
17 “So now, our God, listen to the prayer of Your servant and to his supplications, and for Your sake, O Lord, let Your face shine on Your desolate sanctuary.
18 “O my God, incline Your ear and hear! Open Your eyes and see our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we are not presenting our supplications before You on account of any merits of our own, but on account of Your great compassion.
19 “O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and take action! For Your own sake, O my God, do not delay, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

Israel will make atonement for sin when they nationally realize that Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be, they will mourn over Him as for an only son. Then the Lord will fight for them against their enemies, He will put His Spirit in their hearts, and they will be saved- as a nation. This will bring about the kingdom age, Christ's visible reign on earth, an age of righteousness. Though sin will still be a part of people's nature, Israel will now stand forgiven. They will be re-grafted into the olive tree, the vine- of the faithful, with the word of God written on their hearts. A circumcision of the Holy Spirit. It is in trusting Him and repenting of their national rebellion, that an end is made of iniquity. Just as trusting Christ brought an end to sin's power over us when we believed.

Some might say that this battle could be the battle spoken of in Revelation when Satan is released from the pit after the thousand years, but that cannot be since we see here in Zechariah that those of the nations who survive will be required to celebrate the feast of tabernacles and make a yearly pilgrimage to Jerusalem to worship God. Whereas the battle after Satan's release from the pit leaves no survivors. (Rev 20:7-10) Therefore these requirements of Daniel's prophecy will be fulfilled when the Lord visibly returns to earth to fight Israel's enemies and is more in line with the battle at Armageddon which occurs at the end of the tribulation, which IMO represents the start of the DOTL- Christ's visible reign on earth.

RT

[Mr Baldy]

Hi again RT,

I want to thank you for the time and effort that you have given to provide sound answers to the question of this thread. However, I must say that I am a bit confused by your answers. Let me please explain......

First you wrote this:

I see that the requirements will be met prior to the millennial reign.

Your statement is in reference to the 6 requirements that are mentioned in Daniel 9:24.

Then as you provide additional Scripture, you write this:

Therefore these requirements of Daniel's prophecy will be fulfilled when the Lord visibly returns to earth to fight Israel's enemies and is more in line with the battle at Armageddon which occurs at the end of the tribulation, which IMO represents the start of the DOTL- Christ's visible reign on earth.

If I am understanding what you are writing correctly, then it would appear as if these 6 requirements will not be fulfilled until after the Millennial Reign of Christ - as the Scriptures that you have provided in Zechariah occur during the Millennial Reign. My confusion on what you are trying to communicate is that you first wrote that the requirements will be met "prior" to the Millennial Reign - I have not found that this can be supported with Scripture.

You wrote:

The book of Zechariah explains how these requirements will be fulfilled.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here, and I would have to say that the prophecies described in Zechariah work in conjunction with what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

20) But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27) For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28) Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

The Millennial Reign of Christ has a purpose. Christ must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. Death is a result of sin - in which requirement #2 of Daniel 9:24 is mentioned. After Christ has made all things subject to Him - which is the purpose of the Millennial Reign; then He turns the Kingdom back over to God the Father, so that God may be all in all. This completes the 70 weeks.

If you'll notice, when the 70 weeks were determined it included, the birth of Christ; and the death of Christ. After reading the passages of Scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 it states that He "must" reign. The purpose of His reign is to complete what He has been called to do - "Then comes the End". Therefore, the requirements listed in Daniel 9:24 cannot be completed prior to His Return, as He is the only One who is able to carryout the mission.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

If I am understanding what you are writing correctly, then it would appear as if these 6 requirements will not be fulfilled until after the Millennial Reign of Christ - as the Scriptures that you have provided in Zechariah occur during the Millennial Reign. My confusion on what you are trying to communicate is that you first wrote that the requirements will be met "prior" to the Millennial Reign - I have not found that this can be supported with Scripture.

Hi MrBaldy,

Sorry for the confusion let me try to explain a bit more clearly:

I believe that the DOTL is the Millennial reign all 1000 years (1day = 1000 yrs.) I believe the DOTL begins with Christ's visible return to earth or just before it. I see that the requirements will all be fulfilled during the tribulation and fully fulfilled at Christ's visible return, which starts the 1000 year reign. Yes some of them will be fulfilled after Christ returns, the anointing of the most holy place for instance. But that will likely occur very shortly after Christ's visible return. It is Israel's repentance that makes the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy possible. Thus when they repent is the pivotal event that will allow the rest to be fulfilled. In their repentance is the fulfillment of all the requirements. This repentance IMO happens as a result of the tribulation and occurs just before Christ's return.

In summery I see the requirements of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks as all being met (according to Zechariah) during the final days of the great tribulation when Christ returns to battle Israel's enemies at Armageddon, this is the start of the DOTL or the Millennial reign, and also shortly thereafter, in the days/weeks after Christ's return. Which is why in part I believe that the second half of the so called "week" is longer by 45 days. So that all these requirements can be met before the 70th week officially ends. In other words the Millennium begins when Christ returns, the start of the Millennial reign and the last days of the tribulation or 70th week (Armageddon) overlap.

hope that helps lend clarity

RT

[Mr Baldy]

RT,

With all due respect, let me show you where you appear to be very confusing - as you state:

I believe that the DOTL is the Millennial reign all 1000 years (1day = 1000 yrs.) I believe the DOTL begins with Christ's visible return to earth or just before it. I see that the requirements will all be fulfilled during the tribulation and fully fulfilled at Christ's visible return, which starts the 1000 year reign. Yes some of them will be fulfilled after Christ returns, the anointing of the most holy place for instance. But that will likely occur very shortly after Christ's visible return.

You see, first you state that "the DOTL begins with Christ's visible return to earh or just before it." But then you say that "the requirements will all be fulfilled during the tribulation and fully fuliflled at Christ's visible return." You go on to say that "Yes some of them will be fulfilled after Christ returns".

Lot's of confusion there.

I will close with saying that ALL of the requirements will not have been completed - just as Scripture has mentioned until Christ has Ruled & Reigned for 1,000 years. This is the purpose of the Millennial Kingdom. So that Christ will have put ALL THINGS under His subjection. When He has destroyed the "last enemy" - which is Death - He will then turn the Kingdom back over to God the Father. This occurs after the Millennial Kingdom, the Gog/Mag War; when Satan is let loose from his prison after the Millennial Reign, for this final era in the 70th week. The Great White Throne Judgement - which will be the 2nd ressurection (of the wicked dead) then occurs, and will subsequently lead to the:

Eternal State - in which there is NO END.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

You see, first you state that "the DOTL begins with Christ's visible return to earh or just before it." But then you say that "the requirements will all be fulfilled during the tribulation and fully fuliflled at Christ's visible return." You go on to say that "Yes some of them will be fulfilled after Christ returns".

Lot's of confusion there.

I will close with saying that ALL of the requirements will not have been completed - just as Scripture has mentioned until Christ has Ruled & Reigned for 1,000 years. This is the purpose of the Millennial Kingdom. So that Christ will have put ALL THINGS under His subjection. When He has destroyed the "last enemy" - which is Death - He will then turn the Kingdom back over to God the Father. This occurs after the Millennial Kingdom, the Gog/Mag War; when Satan is let loose from his prison after the Millennial Reign, for this final era in the 70th week. The Great White Throne Judgement - which will be the 2nd ressurection (of the wicked dead) then occurs, and will subsequently lead to the:

Eternal State - in which there is NO END.

Oh bother- I guess I do sound a tad confused-sorry, I have a nasty habit of thinking that everyone knows what I mean and often am not clear in translating my thought process into written words,especially when I am limited on time, and have a lot to communicate. Now how can I say this succinctly? Okay first of all we are talking about the Daniel 9 requirements right? These requirements begin to be fulfilled during the tribulation, when Israel nationally repents, but they will not be completely fulfilled at least until Christ visibly returns to earth AKA the DOTL, or the start of the millennial reign, Though I am flexible as to when exactly the 70 weeks end either at Christ's return or shortly thereafter in those extra 45 days.(1290 vs. 1335 days) I am not certain if Christ's visible return constitutes the actual start of the Millennial reign or if it will officially begin in the days following His return to defeat Israel's enemies at Armageddon.

I do not see in Daniel's prophecy the requirement that all things be subjected to Christ including death. And am not quite sure why you keep including that in the requirements- it's my turn to be confused? Regardless of whether or not the fulfillment of the requirements continue throughout the Millennium, it is the purpose of the 70 weeks to cause Israel to be able to meet them. Israel will be able to meet these requirements when they repent nationally. In their repentance is the embodiment of the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. Thus I see fulfillment in that one act as being made possible, though physically each requirement might actually be fulfilled at different times. Just like our repentance and faith saves us, we are not actually saved physically from anything yet, what we have is the promise of salvation from judgment and condemnation to eternal life with Christ. Though we are not yet physically saved- we have been rendered able to be saved- it is a done deal. When Israel repents and puts their faith in Christ, they will in the act of repentance fulfill the requirements, they will be rendered righteous, filled with the Holy Spirit (as we are)and made into a people that will then be able to fulfill Daniel's prophetic words. At that point it is a done deal. That is what I was trying to say in my very confused way. The seventy weeks will have rendered Israel able to fulfill the requirements, that is the purpose of the prophecy. All the events that Daniel highlights are important to Israel- the command to rebuild the temple- the Messiah being cut off- the prince who is to come, the firm covenant, the prince causing the cessation of sacrifice, the abomination. It is to bring Israel to repentance so that they might be restored nationally and spiritually. They will be re-grafted into the olive tree. Scripture is pretty clear that this repentance happens during the great tribulation, near its end, after the rod of discipline (the Antichrist) has brought them through the fire of refinement.

The seventy weeks are 70 equal periods of 7, I wonder how do you see them divided if you do not see their fulfillment until the end of the millennium? How long do you say a "week" is? Or are you claiming the 70th week doesn't happen until the last 7 years of the millennium?

RT

Sometimes I confuse myself thanks for being patient with me.

[Mr Baldy]

Okay first of all we are talking about the Daniel 9 requirements right? These requirements begin to be fulfilled during the tribulation

RT, in reference to your aforementioned quote - please prove this with Scripture, as this is where I believe that you make your first mistake. Daniel 9:24-27 clearly lay out the "beginning" of the 70 weeks, and the subsequent requirements are completed when Christ has completed it all - which is concluded, or completely fulfilled when He has completed His Reign.

The seventy weeks will have rendered Israel able to fulfill the requirements

It is NOT Israel who fulfills the requirements. It is Christ, and Him alone. This is the purpose of the Prophecy, and the reason why Paul later tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 that He must Reign. This is the purpose for the 70 weeks which have been determined, the Millennial Rule and Reign of Christ, in order that when Christ finally defeats the last enemy - which is death, He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, so that God may be all in all.

seventy weeks are 70 equal periods of 7, I wonder how do you see them divided if you do not see their fulfillment until the end of the millennium? How long do you say a "week" is? Or are you claiming the 70th week doesn't happen until the last 7 years of the millennium?

RT, apparently you are trying to understand the 70 weeks from a human standpoint of view. Why has Scripture mentioned that a 1,000 years are as a Day with the Lord? Why has Scripture mentioned that He must Reign?

As I have stated before: when the 70 weeks were determined it included, the birth of Christ; and the death of Christ. After reading the passages of Scripture in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 it states that He "must" reign. The purpose of His reign is to complete what He has been called to do - "Then comes the End". Therefore, the requirements listed in Daniel 9:24 cannot be completed prior to His Return, as He is the only One who is able to carryout the mission.

In closing, 1whowaits has given an excellent analysis on this topic. You may want to go back and read some of the comments that he has made.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

It is NOT Israel who fulfills the requirements. It is Christ, and Him alone. This is the purpose of the Prophecy, and the reason why Paul later tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 that He must Reign. This is the purpose for the 70 weeks which have been determined, the Millennial Rule and Reign of Christ, in order that when Christ finally defeats the last enemy - which is death, He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, so that God may be all in all.

You say the purpose for the 70 weeks is so that Christ can reign to defeat the last enemy, however that is not at all what the passage in Daniel says:

Daniel 9:24
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

The prophecy is clearly for and about Israel, you are mixing apples and oranges. The 1 Cor. passage has no bearing on Daniel's prophecy. It is related only in the idea that they can both relate to the Millennial reign, but 1 Cor says nothing concerning the purpose of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks. The seventy weeks are "for your people" (Daniel's people the Israelites) to finish, to make, to bring, to seal up, to anoint. Yes Christ alone makes it all possible, but it is the repentance of Israel that facilitates the kingdom age. The kingdom age hinges on the repentance of Israel. That is the context of Daniel's prayer. Yes Christ reigns for 1000 years- He will at the end of that reign defeat the last enemy- I agree with you on that.

The context of the 1 Cor. passage is in reference to the order of the resurrection, which by the way shows the rapture to occur before His return. You have an order described concerning when certain groups of people will be resurrected- Christ the first fruits- is the first group (that would be those who compose the body of Christ- He is the head who has already been raised- we are the body who will follow Him as first fruits (Barley). The second group are those that are His at His coming, this is a second resurrection.(Wheat)which is made up of those tribulation saints- I believe I shared this in another thread with you, but it is very interesting that the second group is identified as belonging to Christ, while the first group is identified as being Christ. Then comes the end- at the end there is another resurrection when death is abolished and the kingdom is handed over to the Father.(The general harvest) This has nothing to do with Daniel's prophecy.

RT, apparently you are trying to understand the 70 weeks from a human standpoint of view. Why has Scripture mentioned that a 1,000 years are as a Day with the Lord? Why has Scripture mentioned that He must Reign?

I am not trying to understand the 70 weeks from a human standpoint, but rather from a scriptural one. The reasons why Christ must reign are not relevant to Daniel's 70 weeks, rather I see that scripture shows that the 70 weeks are a prerequisite to the reign itself.

I think our difference hinges on this- I see the 70 weeks as what is required of Israel so that Christ might begin His earthly reign, while you see the seventy weeks as what is required by Christ to finish His reign.

I would again ask you what unit of seven do you ascribe to the 70 weeks- are they years? Jubilees? Ages? Or just allegory for an undetermined time frame? You have yet to answer that question.

You know Mr.Baldy, for a guy who insists on letting the word of God speak for itself, you sure do a lot of speculating. Not that I see anything wrong with that, because I myself do so. Just pointing it out, since you are so ready to point out my speculation.

Carry on

RT

[The Orange Mailman]

Hey Mr. Baldy-

I'm going to throw in a few tidbits. This passage in Daniel 9 is less about the millennial reign and more about the restoration of the temple. Notice Daniel's prayer is consumed with the idea of the sanctuary being restored, Daniel 9:17. The goals in Daniel 9:24 conclude with the anointing of the most holy place, which would be the temple. So the 70 weeks are determined for the purpose of the restoration of temple worship.

So here's the way I see it. At the end of the 70th week, we can see that Israel's sinful rejection of God as the God of Israel will cease. Israel will have everlasting righteousness. The temple will be anointed and functioning to exalt the God of Israel. The goals of Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled and then the millennial reign begins, but not until the end of the 1335 days. To insert the idea of death being completely abolished or something else is to read too much into the passage.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Mr Baldy]

The prophecy is clearly for and about Israel

This is where we disagree. I look at Scripture as a whole. The 70 weeks are determined for ALL who belong to Christ. If one belongs to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring. There is no separate judgement, or set of rules just strictly for Israel or the Jews.

You know Mr.Baldy, for a guy who insists on letting the word of God speak for itself, you sure do a lot of speculating.

RT, anything I "speculate" on is backed by Scripture. Here are some for you to consider, as we look at how I believe that the 70 weeks do include the entire picture of Christ.

Romans 2:28-29 - "28) For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29)But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

Romans 4:16 - "16) That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all"

Galatians 3:7-9 - "7) Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8) Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9) So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."

Galatians 3:26-29 - "26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29) And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I think that the aforementioned Scriptures prove my point. Even the prophecies of Daniel pointed to Christ, as the rest of the Old Testament. As I have previously mentioned, I look at Scripture as a whole. I don't buy into the whole idea that there is a separate arrangement for Israel. The prophecies of Daniel point to Christ, and include the Body of Christ.

In closing, it is all about Christ, and Him alone.

[Mr Baldy]

The goals in Daniel 9:24 conclude with the anointing of the most holy place, which would be the temple.

Hi OM, and thanks your input.

Let me start by saying that you have appeared to cherry pick Daniel 9:24 as there are different interpretations concerning what the "anointing" may concern. Some interpretations have "the Most Holy" as well as the "most holy place"; as you have mentioned. The question would then become, are we referring to Christ, or are we referring to the temple? Nevertheless, Scripture is quite clear that He must Reign. (1 Corinthians 13:20-28)

At the end of the 70th week, we can see that Israel's sinful rejection of God as the God of Israel will cease. Israel will have everlasting righteousness. The temple will be anointed and functioning to exalt the God of Israel. The goals of Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled and then the millennial reign begins, but not until the end of the 1335 days

How about some Scripture to go along with those statements?

Sin and rebellion will continue even during the Millennial Reign of Christ - and even death. This is why He must Reign, so that He can finish the work that the Son has to do prior to turning the Kingdom over to God the Father. To say that Israel will have everlasting righteousness at this point, I believe is a bit premature.

You must know that the Millennial Kingdom will be populated with those who have the ability to sin during this thousand year period in which Satan is bound in prison right? This can be proven in Revelation 20:7-10:

7) And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8) and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9)And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So in closing, how can you say that "the goals of Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled then the millennial reign begins" when it is evident that the work in which Christ has to do has not been completed?

Christ doesn't declare that it is done, until the New Heaven and New Earth. (Revelation 21:6)

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Dear Mr.Baldy,

I think we are at an impasse in our debate, at this point I think it best that we agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I am always interested in hearing other points of view even though I am passionate about my own, there is always room to learn and grow.

RT

[The Orange Mailman]

Hi Mr. Baldy-

My point of view comes from a comprehensive view of the book of Daniel. Daniel 9 as a whole stems from Daniel's prayer for the restoration of his people in light of the current Babylonian exile. When he understood the seventy years was coming to a close as foretold by Jeremiah, and that the Babylonian empire had been judged, Daniel thinks that perhaps his people can return and live as a righteous people in the land. He realizes that without repentance that his people will not return in righteousness, see Deuteronomy 30:1-10. So Daniel begins by personally confessing his sins and the sins of his people. In the midst of this confession of sin and request that the sanctuary might be restored is when the LORD speaks to Daniel through Gabriel.

At the end of the 70th week, we can see that Israel's sinful rejection of God as the God of Israel will cease. Israel will have everlasting righteousness. The temple will be anointed and functioning to exalt the God of Israel. The goals of Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled and then the millennial reign begins, but not until the end of the 1335 days

How about some Scripture to go along with those statements?

The phrase "to bring in everlasting righteousness" would be reminiscent of passages like Jeremiah 23:5-8 (the LORD is our righteousness) and Jeremiah 31:34 which refers to God forgiving Israel's sins when she participates in the new covenant. As far as the temple, I would point to Exodus 15:17-18.

We must remember that when the current time of the fullness of Gentiles is over, as spoken of in Romans 11:25, that ALL ISRAEL will be saved, Romans 11:26-27. This quotation of Isaiah 59 shows that the new relationship of Israel with the LORD will be perpetually established to the next generation, then the next generation, etc. etc. etc. So when I write that Israel will be righteous, I mean just that, only Israel. There will be other nations, but we know that ALL ISRAEL will be saved from that point on throughout the millennial kingdom. It is other nations that will rebel against the LORD at the close of the millennium, but not Israel.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Mr Baldy]

Dear Mr.Baldy,

I think we are at an impasse in our debate, at this point I think it best that we agree to disagree. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint. I am always interested in hearing other points of view even though I am passionate about my own, there is always room to learn and grow.

RT

Thank you as well RT, for the time and effort you have provided concerning this matter. I have enjoyed your response to this particular topic, even if we have disagreed.

[Mr Baldy]

when the current time of the fullness of Gentiles is over

Hi OM, again I want to thank you for the information that you have provided concerning this topic.

I have quoted the aforementioned statement that you have made, as it really caught my attention. The question then becomes "when is the time for the fullness of Gentiles over?"

You see, the end of this current World doesn't stop when Jesus Returns. Those Gentiles who are yet to be grafted in "may" occur during the Millennial Reign, as I have seen no Scriptural evidence that gives a specific time when this is completed, or any evidence that would support the fact that salvation ceases at the Return of Christ. Nor have I seen any evidence that would support the fact that the 70 weeks are completed at the Return of Christ. On the contrary, it seems to be completed at the close of the Day of the Lord - when all has been defeated by Christ (the purpose of His Reign); and this includes the sentencing at the Great White Throne Judgement. "All of Israel" being saved appears to be a continuous process, that is completed during the Millennial Reign, perhaps when the complete number of Gentiles have come in.

In closing, I'm certainly not dogmatic about this view, just trying to put this all together.

[1whowaits]

just meinen zwei pfennig, the interpretation of when the stipulations of Dan 9:24 are completed could depend on how one views the DOTL. Certainly these things are completed when Jesus returns at the DOTL at the end of the 70 weeks, but as it appears that the DOTL continues for 1,000 years, when during the DOTL does completion occur? at the beginning or at the end?

To 'finish transgression' suggests an completion or end of transgression or rebellion, does that occur for Israel at Christ's return and the beginning of the DOTL? Also 'put an end to sin' suggests a completion or end of sin, does that occur for Israel at Christ's return and the begining of the DOTL?

Although Israel repents and accepts Christ at armageddon as described in Zech 12, and Jesus forgives their sin and rebellion, does that end sin for Israel for the entire millenium? Do the people of the nation sin no more, is there no trangression among the people for 1,000 years? That would appear unlikely as there will be children born during the millenium who have not accepted Christ, and they will sin, sin will not have ended for Israel, sin and transgression will not be completed for Israel at the beginning of the DOTL. But sin and trangression will be completed and at an end only at the GWTJ and the end of the millenium.

Bringing in everlasting righteousness could be a reference to Christ, but it could also be a reference to the relationship of individuals to Christ, Christ is our righteousness and He is everlasting, and Christ would be the everlasting righteousness of the people of Israel through a personal relationship to Him, which would not be accomplished for all those born in Israel during the millenium until the end of the millenium.

Sealing up vision and prophecy could refer to no more prophecies being made, or the sealing could refer to the completion of the prophecies already made, which would not occur until the end of the millneium and the GWTJ.

Anointing the most holy can be interpreted as referring to the most holy place or most holy thing. Although the tabernacle was anointed, i cannot find a reference to the temple being anointed in the past or future, where the most holy place would be. When the term anointinig is used it is most often used in reference to the anointing of an individual, frequently the king, which in the case of Dan 9 could be Jesus who reigns on the throne of David. When is Jesus anointed? Likely at the beginning of the millenium. When does He put all enemies under His feet? He is king over everything at the end, when the last enemy is defeated (1 Cor 15).

Dan 9 appears to describe a 'completing' or an ending to the things to be accomplished for Israel, and although this 'completing' is begun when Jesus returns at the beginning of the DOTL, they are not fully completed until the end of the DOTL, 1,000 years later, which of course can be seen as the same 'day'.

So the things to be accomplished for the people and holy city of Dan 9:24 are completed on the same day at the end of the 70 weeks, but the 'day' is a bit of a long one.

[Mr Baldy]

Dan 9 appears to describe a 'completing' or an ending to the things to be accomplished for Israel, and although this 'completing' is begun when Jesus returns at the beginning of the DOTL, they are not fully completed until the end of the DOTL, 1,000 years later, which of course can be seen as the same 'day'.

Great overall analysis 1whowaits. I am in agreement with you - however, I believe that this time period applies to the Body of Christ, which includes "Israel" as a whole.

[1whowaits]

Mr. B, the body of Christ and believing Israel are both present during the DOTL, but there are also those who rebel or do not accept Christ during the millenium, according to Zech 14 and Rev 20. Isa appears to indicate that children will be born during the millenium, and human nature being what it is (rebellious) a certain number will rebel, which Gog-Magog II confirms. And although the nation of Israel accepts Christ, in reality it is the individual Jews that must accept Christ themselves for the nation to turn to Jesus. So there can still be sin in Israel up until the time of the end of the millenium and the GWTJ.

[Mr Baldy]

And although the nation of Israel accepts Christ, in reality it is the individual Jews that must accept Christ themselves for the nation to turn to Jesus.

1whowaits........

May God bless you for bringing this very important information to the forefront!

This has been my point all alone. There are those who believe that when one mentions that the Jews must ALSO come to Christ, that when we say this, then this is "Replacement Theology" or a form thereof. That is pure utter nonsense. I don't even know who "coined" the phrase "Replacement Theology" - but I personally don't even entertain this form of thinking. Neither was Paul relaying that there is a separate form of Salvation for the Jews in the book of Romans.

Scripture is clear there is only "one way" to God the Father - whether they be Jew or Gentile, and that is through Jesus Christ. The entire Salvation process involves Christ, and Him alone. The process is complete after the Millennial Reign in which those who will accept Christ will have had to have done so prior to the point in which the final rebellion occurs, and the subsequent Great White Throne Judgement has come to fruition.