The Book of Lamentations, where does it fit in the story?

[Jay Ross]

Hello

I have been prompted to look again at the Book of Lamentations and the issue for me has become, what time period is this Lamentation written about.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[mark s]

Hi Jay,

This follows the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. Picture Jeremiah looking out over the smoking ruin of Jerusalem, her people all led off into slavery in Babylon.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jay Ross]

hello Mark

Are you really sure about that because there are passages within the Book of lamentations that can only be read as referring to the time interval after 70 CE in all five chapters of the book. I know that Ask the Scribe a question writer suggests that both are possible but there was no forced dispersion to the four corners of the world after they were taken to Babylon and it did not happen until the Roman's destroyed the Temple in 70 CE.

It seems to me that the timeline you suggest might be wrong and I am looking for proof from within the text itself to clarify the situation for me.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[The Orange Mailman]

Jay, could you cite some specific examples that would preclude a post-exile setting. Thanks.

[Jay Ross]

Jay, could you cite some specific examples that would preclude a post-exile setting. Thanks.

Chapter 1

3 Judah has gone into exile because of affliction
and hard servitude;
she dwells now among the nations,
but finds no resting place;
her pursuers have all overtaken her
in the midst of her distress.

This was the first one that caught my eye initially.

[Ready1]

Just out of curiosity, Jay, weren't Babylon and the Persian Empire which followed it an amalgamation of different countries which were brought together under the headship of Nebuchadnezer and continued under Darius? My reasoning is that when we look at Esther, the Jews who were in all the provences/countries were allowed to protect themselves.

Would that bear on the subject?

[Jericho]

Perhaps it's a dual prophecy? http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/34.htm

[Jay Ross]

Just out of curiosity, Jay, weren't Babylon and the Persian Empire which followed it an amalgamation of different countries which were brought together under the headship of Nebuchadnezer and continued under Darius? My reasoning is that when we look at Esther, the Jews who were in all the provences/countries were allowed to protect themselves.

Would that bear on the subject?

The Babylonian exile was for a specific time period of 70 years and was because all of Israsel did not keep all the Sabbaths Holy. They did not keep the Jubilee Sabbaths unto the Lord.

Also the Northern kingdom had been taken into captivity because of the Northern Kingdom's iniquity against the Lord and they were disbursed within the extent of the Assyrian Empire.

Also Chapter 5 of the Book of Lamentations, verses 19- 20 indicates that the dispersion is for a much longer period and that it will extend over the greater part of two ages while God sits on His throne ignoring them. The indicated length of time in verse 19 is fairly close to a 2,000 year period.

This too is one of the reasons that I do not see that the Book of Lamentations is a lament over the Babylonian exile of the southern Kingdom.

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps it's a dual prophecy? http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/34.htm

Why is it that we want a two way bet with prophecy? Does that not indicate that we do not understand the prophecy passage?

Let me illustrate with the following extract from your link:

Other examples. Jeremiah 50 and 51 are prophetic of the overthrow of the kingdom of Babylon, but the extensive use of the language of these chapters in Revelation 17 and 18 shows that this overthrow was typical of the overthrow of spiritual Babylon at Christ's return.

Jer 50:1-3 tells of Greece's tearing apart of the Kingdom of Babylon, the moving of the infrastructure of buildings etc and of the people throughout the Greece empire. We are also told in Jer 50:39-40, that Babylon will lie desolate and devastated for a period of some 2,000 or so years before it comes back to life again

Then Jer 50:4 puts a specific time stamp on when the rest of the prophecy in Jer 50-51 will be fulfilled in Jer 50:4-5: -

Jeremiah 50:4-5: - "In those days and in that time, says the Lord, the people of Israel and the people of Judah shall come together, weeping as they come; and they shall seek the Lord their God. They shall ask the way to Zion, with faces turned toward it, saying, 'Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant which will never be forgotten.'

Both Israel and Judah began to ask the way to Zion around the end of the 19th century and it is my view that there is another 30-40 years yet until they repent of their iniquity of idolatry and will be able to join themselves to the Lord and enter into an everlasting covenant with Him.

Now this article on dual prophecy, indicates that Revelation 17-18 reflect much of what has been written in Jeremiah 50-51 however the time stamp that is contained within Rev 17 indicates that there is a large time gap between the two prophetic passages.

Revelation 17:8-14: - The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to perdition. And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast; they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

Using language from a previous prophecy in a more recent prophecy does not make the previous prophecy dualistic in its character as to when it is being fulfilled.

Jer 51's prophecy ends with: -

Jeremiah 51:58: - "Thus says the Lord of hosts:
The broad wall of Babylon
shall be leveled to the ground
and her high gates
shall be burned with fire.
The peoples labor for nought,
and the nations weary themselves only for fire."

At present the nations of the world are wearying themselves only for the fire, {oil} contained within the Land of the Chaldeans. This is happening today in this present time period while Rev 17's timestamp indicates that it's prophecy is still over 1,000 years into our future.

The Question remains, does the text of the Book of Lamentations clearly indicate the time period of the prophetic message contained within it and where does it fit in the story?

[mark s]

Jay, could you cite some specific examples that would preclude a post-exile setting. Thanks.

Chapter 1

3 Judah has gone into exile because of affliction
and hard servitude;
she dwells now among the nations,
but finds no resting place;
her pursuers have all overtaken her
in the midst of her distress.

This was the first one that caught my eye initially.

Hi Jay,

While many were taken to Babylon, some escaped to Egypt, and possibly some to other places.

The reference itself may simply mean that they are no longer in Israel, but are with the Gentiles.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jericho]

Why is it that we want a two way bet with prophecy? Does that not indicate that we do not understand the prophecy passage?

Not saying that's it, just offering it as a possibility.

[Jay Ross]

Thank you all for your input however I am asking for people to quote from the book of Lamentations and hang their hat on the peg of their understanding of what the said passage is saying.

It is my view that the Book of Lamentation is a lament over Israel during the time period 70 CE until the end of this present age which in my view is still some 30-40 years into the future.

What I am looking for from the members of this board is for other peoples input based on the Book of Lamentations and other relevant passages of scripture which might support their expressed view.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I see this idea of future fulfillment throughout the books of the prophets, Ezekiel for one speaks concerning events of his own time as well as what I believe are future events. It is not necessarily that they are dual fulfillments, but that some of the prophecies were for their day and some yet future, however those hearing had no way of knowing and likely would have anticipated the fulfillment sooner rather than later. The prophetic word of God fulfilled at one time I believe also foreshadows future events. The rebellion of Israel caused God to take action in order to discipline and reprove them so that they might serve Him as they had vowed to do, this began when the northern kingdom was taken captive by Assyria, continued when Judah was taken captive by Babylon. The kingdoms described in Daniel are the key to understanding, the colossus and the kingdoms it signifies- Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and then the feet of the final kingdom, it is an unfolding of prophecy that continues throughout the gentile rule of Jerusalem,this would include the sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD up and through our present age until Jesus returns as the stone that topples the colossus. This is how I believe the prophetic word must be viewed, until Israel repents nationally of its rebellion against God and returns to following Him, the prophetic word is like an onion, with layers that are gradually peeled away until there are no more layers and all is fulfilled.

The passage in Lamentations I believe does speak to the scattering that was to come, but it also speaks to the scattering that had just begun. The diaspora for Judah began with Babylon and will continue until the nation of Israel repents and Jesus returns; this is the central message of all the prophetic word concerning Israel, when this happens then their relationship with God will be restored during the Millennial reign. When you look at it in this light it all makes so much more sense, at least to me anyway.

RT

[The Orange Mailman]

Hello Jay-

It is obvious that the person who wrote the book witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem. The traditional date for the authorship is 586 BC. It must have been written well before the time of Christ since it is included in the Septuagint. So I see no reason to contradict the authorship of the prophet Jeremiah. In fact, I believe Jeremiah and Lamentation were [at one time] united as one book. The only reason it was separated is because that portion was read at a certain feast day, much like the book of Ruth was separated from Judges. examination of the book will only confirm that Jeremiah either wrote or compiled these 5 laments.

Going from princess among the nations to slave (Lam. 1:1) must be understood in light of Israel's sovereignty as a nation. Going from a Davidic dynasty to an appointed governor adequately is accurately reflected here. While the destruction of a mere territory in the days of Titus is not reflected in Lamentations 1:1.

Living among the Gentiles should be contrasted with the situation previous to this (Lam 1:3). Previous to this, we could expect that Judah was not living among the Gentiles. They were dwelling in their homeland. This would preclude a 70AD description since the twelve tribes were scattered abroad in the first century, see James 1:1. Living among the Gentiles simply means that God had brought upon them the fulfillment of Leviticus 26:33-39.

The phrase "the daughter of Zion" is distinctly an old testament term. Was the term in use in the first century?

Lamentations 1:8-9 is a fulfillment of Jeremiah 13:22.

Lamentations 1:10 and 4:12 make no sense in the first century. During the Babylonian Empire this could have been an accurate claim, but in the first century, these events would have been completely credible (meaning the average person could believe that Gentiles could destroy Jerusalem and the temple) since Jerusalem had been destroyed once already, the sanctuary had been defiled by the Gentiles multiple times (Antiochus IV), and they were living under Roman occupation. So the language of "the kings of the earth would not have believed that the enemy should have entered into the gates of Jerusalem" certainly fits the Babylonian exile better.

The term "Judah" was outdated by the time 70AD came.

Lam. 2:9 would make better sense during the exile. Jeremiah and Ezekiel were prophets right up to that time. During the siege by Titus, there were no prophets that were recognized as such. In fact, John the Baptist was probably the last prophet that was recognized by the nation of Israel in some way.

Lam. 2:15 could hardly be descriptive of Jerusalem during the Roman occupation. The perfection of beauty must have been Jerusalem with the beauty of Solomon's temple within its walls.

Lam. 4:21-22 clearly denotes a time before Edom became Idumea. At the time that Nebuchadnezzar plundered Jerusalem, Edom assisted, which explains why the prophets denounced her. In short, there was no Edom at the time of the 70AD destruction.

Lam. 5:6 is clear proof that this was during a time when the nation of Israel had extended their hand to Egypt and Assyria for assistance. This clearly reflects the progression seen in the book of II Kings and II Chronicles. There were no Assyrian ties with Israel during the first century.

Some of the descriptions could be characteristic of any siege. It may seem interesting to try to envision that this is someone describing the 70AD destruction. And maybe there are some prophetic applications. But it seems pretty clear that there are chonological markers that denote this book as occurring at the beginning of the Babylonian exile.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Jay Ross]

I see this idea of future fulfillment throughout the books of the prophets, Ezekiel for one speaks concerning events of his own time as well as what I believe are future events. It is not necessarily that they are dual fulfillments, but that some of the prophecies were for their day and some yet future, however those hearing had no way of knowing and likely would have anticipated the fulfillment sooner rather than later. The prophetic word of God fulfilled at one time I believe also foreshadows future events. The rebellion of Israel caused God to take action in order to discipline and reprove them so that they might serve Him as they had vowed to do, this began when the northern kingdom was taken captive by Assyria, continued when Judah was taken captive by Babylon. The kingdoms described in Daniel are the key to understanding, the colossus and the kingdoms it signifies- Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and then the feet of the final kingdom, it is an unfolding of prophecy that continues throughout the gentile rule of Jerusalem,this would include the sacking of Jerusalem in 70AD up and through our present age until Jesus returns as the stone that topples the colossus. This is how I believe the prophetic word must be viewed, until Israel repents nationally of its rebellion against God and returns to following Him, the prophetic word is like an onion, with layers that are gradually peeled away until there are no more layers and all is fulfilled.

The passage in Lamentations I believe does speak to the scattering that was to come, but it also speaks to the scattering that had just begun. The diaspora for Judah began with Babylon and will continue until the nation of Israel repents and Jesus returns; this is the central message of all the prophetic word concerning Israel, when this happens then their relationship with God will be restored during the Millennial reign. When you look at it in this light it all makes so much more sense, at least to me anyway.

RT

RT

I would agree with you that in understanding prophecy, we must be able to separate the timeframes being referenced within the prophecies to know the time periods for which the prophecies are referencing. We must also know who is being spoken about or too in order to be able to understand the prophecy.

In your post you have suggested that the Roman Empire is the four segment of the statue of Daniel 2 yet God's words in the Book of Joel 3 does not see a Roman Empire existing that sells Israel into slavery but he sees a subset of the Greek Empire doing the same. Daniel 8 also suggests that the gentiles who will trample the Sanctuary for 2,300 years is of Greek origin. It is true that the Greek influence in the world has continued over most of the world's nations and forms the basis of our philosophical understanding today, particularly within our forms of government even thought there has been a "Christian" influence as well which is reflected in the character of the laws used within the Greek form of governance that applies today. (Also Daniel 8, 10-11 reflects this as well.)

Josephus in his record of history, clearly suggests that the Roman segment of the Greek Empire had no dominance over the Land of Babylon, the land of the Chaldeans kingdom and that the land when they marched there was devastated and desolate at that time. As such, the "Roman Empire" exercised on governance over the Land/Kingdom of the Chaldeans even though there are maps today claiming to show the extent of the Roman Empire's dominance which includes the area of Babylon. It is my view that this was not so with respect to the Land of the Chaldeans. God told Jeremiah in Jer 50-51 that the land would be desolate and devastate for a period of some 2,000 years.

Now the fourth and fifth segment of the Statue in Daniel 2 must be in existence today and be represented as a kingdom or empire having dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans that is easily recognisable because it is while these two segments exists that the Kingdom of God is established based on the rock of foundational truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Most people agree that the Kingdom of God will be established in our near future, possibly within the next 30-40 years

Now in Isaiah 28 God tells us that we are not to build our understanding of Him and His prophecies Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept.

Now it is my view that the scattering of Judah does not begin until 70 CE as it was God's intent that Judah would return to the Promised Land as there was still prophecies which indicated a further 490 years of offering up sacrifices yearly as repentance for their sin. Jesus also indicated that the 490 years of forgiveness had run its course and that there was a new way in which Israel would receive forgiveness for their iniquity. It was not until this 490 year period had run its course that God finally turn away from Israel so that He walked contrary to them while they continued to walk contrary to Him. There are many prophecies within the OT that indicate that this would be for a period of two ages which is around 2,000 years in duration.

Now does the text of the Book of Lamentations support the idea that it is a lament that is applicable to the present 2,000 year period that Israel has not experienced the presence of God in their midst.

Shalom

Jay Ross

PS OM I know that you have posted some thoughts on this topic but they require a little more thought and study to respond to them adequately. I presently have other responsibilities that have come to the fore that may impede a timely response to you.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Now the fourth and fifth segment of the Statue in Daniel 2 must be in existence today and be represented as a kingdom or empire having dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans that is easily recognisable because it is while these two segments exists that the Kingdom of God is established based on the rock of foundational truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Most people agree that the Kingdom of God will be established in our near future, possibly within the next 30-40 years

Hi Jay,
I agree that the final beast system is an amalgamation of nations, the beast in Revelation supports this:

Revelation 13:1-2
1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.
2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

You have the Leopard, the bear, the Lion (Greece/ Medo Persia/ Babylon). I disagree with you concerning the idea that these nations have dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans, rather I see that the relevance is in that they have dominion over Jerusalem/Israel. Now they may also have dominion over that region that was once the Land of the Chaldeans, but I believe that the prophecies place the relevance on dominion over Jerusalem. The colossus in Daniel shows the final kingdom as the two feet of Iron and clay. As we all know from our history books there were two legs to the Roman empire- the eastern and western legs. The dominion over Jerusalem has passed between these two legs for centuries. After the Romans ruled over the region the Ottoman empire or the eastern leg ruled for hundreds of years until the Europeans forced them out in 1917. (The western leg). Now today you have the return of exiles to Israel just as scriptures prophesied, though not all Jews are in the Land, they are still scattered throughout the world. Even though Israel has been re-established as a nation, the temple mount is still ruled by the Arabs (the Eastern Leg).

I believe the beast in Revelation 13 is a composite of the three kingdoms of Greece/ Medo Persia and Babylon, that will arise out of the Eastern and western legs of the Roman Empire. The ten toes/horns would then be made up of equal parts of the eastern and western nations that comprise this nation that has the body of a leopard, the feet of the bear and the mouth of the lion. Indeed today as we live Europe is poised to become that beast, though the Euro zone seems on the brink of failing, I believe that it will be unified with it's Eastern leg, in fact it has been trying to do so through the Med. Union for years. If you look at the nations that are in the region surrounding the Mediterranean Sea, it is easy to see how they could fit into the prophecies. They do resemble the Leopard- Greece, in that most of Europe is considered a Democracy in its governmental body, the bear or Medo Persia the feet- they stand under the body- geographically this is so,also one could say that the economy is propped up by the oil that these nations produce for the Euro Zone. It is the mouth of the lion or Babylon that we have not yet seen arise, that mouth is the antichrist who will rule over this kingdom. That Babylon is said to be a "mystery" in the Revelation a hidden secret, so is not necessarily the same Babylon of the past, but a place that resembles ancient Babylon in its practices. Of course this is all speculation on my part, therefore I could be wrong.

Now in Isaiah 28 God tells us that we are not to build our understanding of Him and His prophecies Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept.

Actually that is not what the Lord says to us, it is what the Lord said to the stammering drunkards who were uttering false prophecies under the pretense of line upon line, precept upon precept. You cannot look at the prophetic word without taking them all into consideration. The prophecies of the OT prophets tie together with those in the New Testament to weave a picture of the future, one cannot get a clear understanding without looking at the whole picture. The beasts described by Daniel are relevant to the beast described by John in the Revelation.

Now it is my view that the scattering of Judah does not begin until 70 CE as it was God's intent that Judah would return to the Promised Land as there was still prophecies which indicated a further 490 years of offering up sacrifices yearly as repentance for their sin. Jesus also indicated that the 490 years of forgiveness had run its course and that there was a new way in which Israel would receive forgiveness for their iniquity. It was not until this 490 year period had run its course that God finally turn away from Israel so that He walked contrary to them while they continued to walk contrary to Him. There are many prophecies within the OT that indicate that this would be for a period of two ages which is around 2,000 years in duration.

It may be your view, but the fact remains that the scattering of the nation of Israel began long before 70 AD. Though I would agree that the last dispersal occurred at the hands of the Roman Empire. I am not so sure about there being many OT prophecies speaking specifically about two ages being 2000 years in duration. I know of one that might be interpreted this way:

Hosea 6:2
2 “He will revive us after two days;
He will raise us up on the third day,
That we may live before Him.

I am not sure what your point is, are you saying that God broke off His relationship with Israel in 70 AD? Ezekiel witnessed the glory of the Lord leaving the temple during the Babylonian invasion. This was when God broke off His relationship with the nation of Israel. The Holy Spirit no longer dwelt among them and will not until the Glory of the Lord returns as described in Ezekiel 43. Though God still did speak through His prophets during the time that followed even though His relationship with Israel as a nation was broken. That is what Daniel's prophecy if the 70 weeks is concerned with, the restoration of that relationship. The Coming of Christ and His subsequent death and resurrection did not cut off God's relationship with Israel, rather it enabled them to re-establish it under the new covenant, which they have yet to do. Yes it was the death blow to the temple era and the era of the law, but God's relationship with the nation of Israel ended long before Christ and the destruction of the temple.

Jeremiah 3:8-10
8 “And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.
9 “Because of the lightness of her harlotry, she polluted the land and committed adultery with stones and trees.
10 “Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception,” declares the Lord.

The northern kingdom went into captivity when Assyria invaded, Judah went into captivity to Babylon, the rest of the passage goes on to speak of God's desire for their repentance and how he will restore them when they do repent, that is yet in the future, it has not been fulfilled. God wrote a certificate of divorce, and sent Israel away, they were taken captive by their enemies. Their relationship with God was severed.

When the exiles returned from captivity in Babylon to rebuild the city of Jerusalem and the temple, the ark of the covenant was gone, it was no longer in the holy place. God no longer made the temple His footstool, the footstool was gone. That doesn't mean He no longer worked among the people of Israel as individuals and even groups,but that national relationship had ended, the spiritual connection to God was severed. Keep in mind that even during this time there were Jews that were still scattered abroad, not all Jews returned from captivity in Assyria or Babylon.

Now does the text of the Book of Lamentations support the idea that it is a lament that is applicable to the present 2,000 year period that Israel has not experienced the presence of God in their midst.

Personally I believe it supports the idea that the lament is applicable to the whole time frame from the time when Jerusalem was sacked by the Babylonians and the glory of the Lord left the temple mount and will continue up until His glory returns.

Lamentations 5:19-22
19 You, O Lord, rule forever;
Your throne is from generation to generation.
20 Why do You forget us forever?
Why do You forsake us so long?
21 Restore us to You, O Lord, that we may be restored;
Renew our days as of old,
22 Unless You have utterly rejected us
And are exceedingly angry with us.

God has not utterly rejected Israel. Ezekiel goes on to describe Israel's national repentance and their restoration. Throughout the lamentation, Jeremiah speaks of his personal relationship with God, that the Lord has heard him and drew near to him, yet he also speaks concerning the national relationship with God. He uses words like "us" and "we" when he does so. While there is mercy granted to the individual, the mercy of the Lord was not granted corporately to the nation. That will not happen until Israel nationally repents and when that happens then Christ will return- as the glory of the Lord and then Israel will be restored to her former relationship through Him.

RT

[Jay Ross]

Reply: -

The Orange man,

I have now had time to reflect on your reply and there are two questions that your response prodded into being in my mind with respect to your post on the Book of Lamentations.

The two questions are: -

1. What is the prominent iniquity mentioned in the Book of lamentation?
2. What is the time span covered in the Book of lamentation?

I look forward to your response.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Jay Ross]

RT

In considering your last post, it raised the question in my mind, even though it is off topic, as to whether or not the prophecies in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are mutually independent of each other or as to whether or not the prophecy in Daniel 2 natural flows into the prophecy in Daniel 7.

It is my present view that the two prophecies are two mutually exclusive and as such they should be considered and treated as two separate prophecies and not run together as you are/have suggesting in your post.

Daniel 2 speaks of five separate segments in the statute while Daniel 7 only speaks of 4 beasts that have dominion in some form or other over the people on the earth.

In Daniel 2, Daniel is surprised that there is a fourth kingdom followed quickly by a fifth kingdom/empire that is a conglomerate of twenty nations each of which exhibit a singular characteristic of either being like iron or like clay which manifests as being just ten toes in the Daniel 2 prophecy. Jeremiah 50-51 certainly confirms this understanding and places the unfolding of these events to this present time which we have witnessed over the last 100 years unfolding with the last portion of the Daniel 2 prophecy still a near future event when god establishes His everlasting kingdom on the earth.

The end of the span of the Book of Lamentations also dovetails into this near future event.

Now another example of the two thousand time span of Israel’s devastation and desolation can be found in Isaiah 61:4 however this understanding has been hidden by the forced application of the Jewish understanding of how this verse should be understood. It is for this reason that the time span in Isaiah 61:4 has been hidden from us even though was in full view.

The same phraseology is also found in Lamentation 5:19 which indicate when God will remember the nation once more after this decreed time span has run its full/decreed course (Daniel 9:26b).

Can you please provide your rational as to why you have run Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 into just one prophecy?

Shalom

Jay Ross.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Okay Jay- I will give it a try

Though I do not claim they are one prophecy, but rather two prophecies regarding the same succession of empires and I am not alone in tying these together, many who study prophecy share this view.

I am including both passages for context so if you don't want to read them skip on down

Daniel 2:31-45
31 “You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome.
32 “The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze,
33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.
34 “You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them.
35 “Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36 “This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king.
37 “You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory;
38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.
39 “After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.
40 “Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.
41 “In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.
42 “As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.
43 “And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.
45 “Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

So to summarize we have the dream of the colossus made up of increasingly hardened metals until you get to the feet at least. As these metals increase in hardness, they also decrease in value or as the passage says are increasingly inferior. The interpretation given in the passage explains that these are successive kingdoms that begin with Babylon.

Head of gold = Babylon
Breast and arms of silver= Medo Persia
Belly and thighs of Bronze= Greece
Legs of Iron= Rome, this kingdom is described as exceedingly strong, it crushes and shatters the others that came before it

Now the feet are not really a fifth kingdom, but an extension of the legs of Iron,there is not a fifth type of metal described but rather the same metal as the legs which end in the feet of iron(Rome) intermingled with clay.Daniel explains that the clay and iron show that parts of this kingdom will be strong and some parts weak and brittle. The clay and iron combine with each other in the seed of men: I have seen some interesting takes on the interpretation of this statement, but I think what it is saying is that the descendants of the Roman empire that ruled after Greece will spread throughout the globe- in the seed of men. This final edition of the roman empire will bring men of the world together in their common ancestry, though I am not positive that I am right concerning this. Daniel also says that in the days of "those kings": here he hints that the toes represent individual kings.

Then you have the stone that strikes the feet and topples the colossus, it puts an end to all the remnants of those kingdoms. The stone of course is Jesus Christ, His kingdom will never be destroyed, and His kingdom fills the earth.

Daniel 7:4-27
4 “The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it.
5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’
6 “After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.
7 “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
8 “While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
12 “As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me.
16 “I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:
17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
18 ‘But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.’
19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
21 “I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.
25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

So here you have four kingdoms or kings rather who arise from the earth- described again except this time they appear as beasts on the earth.

The lion with eagles wings, who is given the mind of a man- this resembles Nebuchadnezzar, Jeremiah 4:7 describes him as a lion, and when he loses his mind and eats of the grass of the fields he is described as looking like an eagle (Dan. 4:33). Ezekiel 17:3,12 also describe the king of Babylon as an eagle. The description shows him after he has his mind restored (his feathers are plucked and he is given the mind of a man), this seems an obvious interpretation.

The bear- again represents Medo Persia, then the leopard with wings and four heads, this is clearly Greece and the four heads are the four generals who ruled after Alexander the great died. The fourth terrifying beast has teeth of iron, just like the iron of the fourth kingdom in his earlier prophecy of the king's dream. Note how the description is similar, this beast devours, crushes and tramples the others, just like the fourth part of iron in the colossus. This final kingdom like the feet of ten toes, has ten horns that we are told are ten kings that will one day arise out of this fierce iron toothed kingdom, note the horns arise, they are not there at first, just like the ten toes come at the end of the iron legs. From their midst arises the little horn who I believe is the Antichrist or the mouth of the beast in Rev 13. After this kingdom and this little horn rises to power the Lord return and hands the kingdom over to the saints. The kingdom will no longer be under gentile rule, but under the rule of the Lord Jesus and His saints. It is the same story told in Daniel 2, but with more detail and with different word pictures. The gentile nations rule over Israel and Jerusalem until the Lord returns and sets up His kingdom on earth.

In Daniel 2, Daniel is surprised that there is a fourth kingdom followed quickly by a fifth kingdom/empire that is a conglomerate of twenty nations each of which exhibit a singular characteristic of either being like iron or like clay which manifests as being just ten toes in the Daniel 2 prophecy. Jeremiah 50-51 certainly confirms this understanding and places the unfolding of these events to this present time which we have witnessed over the last 100 years unfolding with the last portion of the Daniel 2 prophecy still a near future event when god establishes His everlasting kingdom on the earth.

I guess I fail to see a conglomerate of twenty nations in Daniel 2, can you please show me where it says that??

Also I am not seeing how Jeremiah 50-51 supports this either, in fact these chapters only confirm that what Daniel saw in the kings dream and in the beast visions were true, the kingdom of the Medo Persians would overtake Babylon, this was something that happened after the fall of Babylon, the Medo- Persian empire was the next in the succession after Babylon. I do not see how this supports what you are saying , to me at least it speaks toward that past succession of kingdoms, from Babylon to the Medo-Persian Empire.

Jeremiah 50:17-18
17 “Israel is a scattered flock, the lions have driven them away. The first one who devoured him was the king of Assyria, and this last one who has broken his bones is Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
18 “Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I am going to punish the king of Babylon and his land, just as I punished the king of Assyria.

Jeremiah 51:28-29
28 Consecrate the nations against her,
The kings of the Medes,
Their governors and all their prefects,
And every land of their dominion.
29 So the land quakes and writhes,
For the purposes of the Lord against Babylon stand,
To make the land of Babylon
A desolation without inhabitants.

RT

[Jay Ross]

RT,

The Roman Empire does not figure in the Daniel 2 prophecy at all with respect to the Land of the Chaldeans even though historians have produced maps that include the Land of the Chaldeans in the extent of the Roman Empire. Jeremiah 50:3 tells us in prophecy that the land of the Chaldeans would be made desolate and be devastated by the Greek Empires and Josephus in his historical accounts confirm this fact. The time setting of Jer 50:4-51:64 is during the time that

Jeremiah 50:4-5: - "In those days and in that time, says the Lord, the people of Israel and the people of Judah shall come together, weeping as they come; and they shall seek the Lord their God. They shall ask the way to Zion, with faces turned toward it, saying, 'Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant which will never be forgotten.'

This time span co-insides with the development of the motor car and the fourth kingdom/nation in the land of the Chaldeans was re-established after an absence of some 2,000 years and was called Iraq. It's characteristic is like iron.

Now in recent years, an army from twenty nations overran Iraq with each of the nations having a characteristic of either iron or clay but not both. So each toe had a mixture of some iron and clay which did not mix which had been cobbled together from two nations each with a singular characteristic. It was a marriage of convenience between the ten toes x two nations per toe. It just so happens that 20 nations that made up the Coalition of the Willing which was lead by the King of the Northern, which is the USA. The President of the USA is its king.

The above verses from Jeremiah tell us that the "Jewish" people are attempting to return to God in their own strength which is a fulfilment of Genesis 15:16. It also confirms that God has not yet begun the process of drawing the nation of Israel back to the Promise Land to renew his covenant with them that he had made with them before they rebelled at Mt Sinai (Jer 31;31ff). God is waiting for the nation of Israel to repent of the iniquities of their fathers as well as their own iniquity in the same manner.

It is when Israel repents of this iniquity that God sets about establishing His everlasting Kingdom and Christ receives dominion over the people of the earth. The foundational rock of truth that comes down out of heaven is that "Jesus is truly the Son of God" and that all should worship Him as God's only Son. At this time we will see Jesus briefly from afar as He does His Fathers bidding. Then Jesus returns to the heavenly Temple to assume His Priestly Reign until he comes in all of His Glory and all the Angels with Him to judge the heavens and the earth and all of the people from Adam until that time.

Now Daniel 2 ends it prophecy with the establishment of the heavenly Kingdom which co-insides with the end of the Book of Lamentations5:19.

The four beasts of Daniel 7 on the other hand manifest themselves when they are inhabited by the people of the earth and they then take up a recognisable form that can be described. The four beasts come into existence after Daniel 7 is written down whereas the prophecy in Daniel 2 had already started as the prophecy was recorded after it had already started.

My understanding of the four beasts is that they are not empires and kingdoms as such but that they are rather philosophical concepts and religious ideas which do not align with God's words which then manifest themselves as kingdoms and empires as people begin to adopt the philosophical ideals and associated religious thought. For me the fourth terrible beast is manifested as Islam and it is this beast that will be destroyed in the near future while the other three beasts have their dominion removed from them but are allowed to live until the final judgement at the end of the next age.

This is why I consider that the two prophecies from Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are independent prophecies and as such they should not be run together into one prophecy.

But this is way off topic.

Now if we can all be so wrong about our understanding of Daniel's prophecies, is it not possible that our understanding of the time span of the Book of lamentations is also wrong as well and that it was not penned about the Babylonian exile but a much later evet? Namely the present 2,000 year era that Israel has been out in the wilderness.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Jay,

There are some things that you say that I agree with, though I still do not see a coalition of twenty nations anywhere in scripture. But I do agree that God has not yet regathered Israel, and that they need to repent before that gathering can happen.

As for Jeremiah's lament I stand by my previous post. The idea that Israel has not yet been restored to God, and that they are still in need of repentance means that spiritually speaking they are still desolate as a nation. However you see the beasts and the colossus of Nebe's dream, the fact remains that since Babylonian times Israel has not walked with God, they have not reconciled their relationship with Him. I guess in the grand scheme of it all it really isn't that important, one day we will fully understand how all these pieces fit together. Daniel didn't understand, I suspect we won't fully understand either until hindsight and the Lord gives us 20/20 vision.

God bless you--keep studying

RT

[Ready1]

But I do agree that God has not yet regathered Israel, and that they need to repent before that gathering can happen

.

Just out of curiosity, do you see a correlation with the following verses or does this reference something else?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the Lord had been on me, and he took me out in the spirit of the Lord and put me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones;
Eze 37:2 And he made me go past them round about: and I saw that there was a very great number of them on the face of the wide valley, and they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said to me, Son of man, is it possible for these bones to come to life? And I made answer, and said, It is for you to say, O Lord.
Eze 37:4 And again he said to me, Be a prophet to these bones, and say to them, O you dry bones, give ear to the word of the Lord.
Eze 37:5 This is what the Lord has said to these bones: See, I will make breath come into you so that you may come to life;
Eze 37:6 And I will put muscles on you and make flesh come on you, and put skin over you, and breath into you, so that you may have life; and you will be certain that I am the Lord.
Eze 37:7 So I gave the word as I was ordered: and at my words there was a shaking of the earth, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
Eze 37:8 And looking I saw that there were muscles on them and flesh came up, and they were covered with skin: but there was no breath in them

.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

But I do agree that God has not yet regathered Israel, and that they need to repent before that gathering can happen

.

Just out of curiosity, do you see a correlation with the following verses or does this reference something else?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the Lord had been on me, and he took me out in the spirit of the Lord and put me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones;
Eze 37:2 And he made me go past them round about: and I saw that there was a very great number of them on the face of the wide valley, and they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said to me, Son of man, is it possible for these bones to come to life? And I made answer, and said, It is for you to say, O Lord.
Eze 37:4 And again he said to me, Be a prophet to these bones, and say to them, O you dry bones, give ear to the word of the Lord.
Eze 37:5 This is what the Lord has said to these bones: See, I will make breath come into you so that you may come to life;
Eze 37:6 And I will put muscles on you and make flesh come on you, and put skin over you, and breath into you, so that you may have life; and you will be certain that I am the Lord.
Eze 37:7 So I gave the word as I was ordered: and at my words there was a shaking of the earth, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
Eze 37:8 And looking I saw that there were muscles on them and flesh came up, and they were covered with skin: but there was no breath in them

.

Hi Ready1,

Yes I see that Israel has not yet been revived, they are not yet certain of their Lord, they still need to repent.

Ezekiel 37:9-14
9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.” ’ ”
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’
12 “Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 “Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people.
14 “I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’ ”

First and foremost this is a spiritual rebirth before it is a political one. God is breathing His Spirit into the spiritually dead and hopeless nation of Israel, after this happens He will place them on their own land, they are described as a great army after they come back to life. I do not see this "resurrection" as a physical one but rather in the spiritual sense, Israel will be restored in their relationship with the Lord toward the end of the tribulation, when they are rescued from "Babylon" they will be the earthly force that joins with Christ in subduing His enemies.

Many look to the political rebirth of Israel as the fulfillment of these and other scriptures, but I believe it is a spiritual rebirth that Ezekiel is speaking of. Yes today many, many Jews have resettled in the repatriated nation of Israel. But I do not believe this is the settlement of the land Ezekiel is speaking of, because it follows a spiritual rebirth. It is God who places them on their own land after He fills them with His Spirit. This begins with the sealing of the 144,000, He seals them with His Spirit, this sealing takes place at least from my understanding during the first half of the tribulation, the rest of Israel will be filled with His Spirit when they "come out" of Babylon at the end of the tribulation, Israel will repent of its national rebellion against God and when Christ returns He will divide the mountain so that Israel can escape and when He sets up His kingdom He will divide the land among them as their inheritance as described by Ezekiel in later chapters.

RT