When is the Rapture?

[benny balerio]

Ezekiel 38:18-20 is not the start of the Day of the Lord, but what awaits the King of the North after Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord.

My Reply:

Gives no Scriptural support for his assertion that Ezekiel 38 is the start of the Day of the Lord, or that it comes before the one 'seven' commences.

You are very evasive,...

I've been answering all your posts, in the order in which you wrote them. Your charge does not have any merit.

and would like a straight answer from you,...

I have been giving you straight answers which don't compute to your way of thinking. One reason for that is that is that you are using Biblical terms but without their defined meaning.

This isn't too much different than the way you twist word meaning to suit yourself so your eschatology remains intact.

...One moment you claim that the rapture occurs after the A. O.D. event,..

Yes, it does.

and then you change up and say that the rapture occurs at the end of the great tribulation.

Yes it does that too, and I don't "change up" when I say that.

Would like a straight answer from you.

Well you got some more straight answers but I'm pretty sure you won't like them.

What you would like to get and what you will get are two different things.
It's sort of like how the end-times will play out and your eschatology.

You Quote:
Gives no Scriptural support for his assertion that Ezekiel 38 is the start of the Day of the Lord, or that it comes before the one 'seven' commences.

My Reply:
Of Course I give scriptural support,..other I would not make any such claim.

Ezekiel 38;18 states the following:
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
.
It is one thing for the Lord to be angry,..but it is another when He uses the Word..."
Fury"

In Ezekiel 38;19 the Lord says:
For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel.
Who's wrath?...Answer:...."GODS WRATH!!!"

Now let's read 1 Thessalonians 1;10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
In other words,..the Lord rescues the bride from the wrath before it occurs.
This goes with revelation 3;10 to keep us from the hour of temptation,..because the Lord on the Cross said, that our depts are "PAID IN FULL!"...PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Oh!...but you seem to believe that the Lords wrath is only a 24 hour event,..but that is not true.
Food for thought,..it does not matter whether one is killed at the beginning of the one 7 or whether one is killed by the Lord after the Great Tribultion,...either way,..an unbeliever who dies without Jesus as his Lord and Savior is destined for the lake of fire.

No my friend,..the Wrath of God begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20
This event begins slightly prior to Daniels beginning 70th week.
And the whole of Daniels 70th week is consists of the Wrath of God.

The wrath of God is not 24 hours long.

The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

Rev. 15:1, the “bowl judgments” are “the seven last plagues”, after the other plagues. The trumpets are also called plagues in Rev. 9:20. The “seven last plagues” must happen after the other plagues. In 17:1 “And one of the seven angels having the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on the many waters”.
Revelation 15:1
Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God's wrath to completion.

I believe the above proves that the Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long,..but entails a long length of time.

You Quote:
"]...One moment you claim that the rapture occurs after the A. O.D. event,..[/quote]
Yes, it does.

and then you change up and say that the rapture occurs at the end of the great tribulation.

Yes it does that too, and I don't "change up" when I say that.

Would like a straight answer from you.

Well you got some more straight answers but I'm pretty sure you won't like them.

What you would like to get and what you will get are two different things.
It's sort of like how the end-times will play out and your eschatology.[/quote]


My Reply:
So you are saying that there will be two raptures
No sir,..there is only one and it will occur prior to the wrath of God in a pre-trib setting.

[benny balerio]

You said the Day of the Lord is the one 'seven.' That is your interpretation - it has NO Scriptural support.

The Day of the Lord consists of the whole of Daniels 70th week,....BUT!...the Day of the Lord begins slightly prior to Daniels 70th week.

Let it be noted that benny balerio gives NO Scriptural support for his assertion - again.

So when challenged to provide Scriptural support for his assertions, benny can't provide any.

I think we can pretty much say there is no Scriptural support for saying the Day of the Lord is the whole of the one 'seven,' or that it even begins slightly before the one 'seven' commences.

Before I debate you about the King of the North,..tell us who you claim the identity of the king of the north is?

Before you debate me? You just make declarative statements without Scriptural support! There is no real debate here.

In answer though, I do not claim to know the idenity of the King of the North. He hasn't been revealed yet, nor has any of the qualifying acts he will perform have been done yet. I do not play "pin the tail on the anti-Christ." There are some world leaders who might be vying for the chance to be the anti-Christ, but then we can know from Rev chapters 17-18, that the ten ministers who rule the final fourth beast are all aligned with the anti-Christ; so there are plenty who are like him, which makes it all the harder to figure out who will be the one - at this point.

However, your question is meaningless, and your demand for a straight answer will no doubt be thwarted in your mind because it cannot be answered - yet.

My Reply:
Of Course I give scriptural support,..other I would not make any such claim.

Ezekiel 38;18 states the following:
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
.
It is one thing for the Lord to be angry,..but it is another when He uses the Word..."
Fury"

In Ezekiel 38;19 the Lord says:
For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel.
Who's wrath?...Answer:...."GODS WRATH!!!"

Now let's read 1 Thessalonians 1;10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
In other words,..the Lord rescues the bride from the wrath before it occurs.
This goes with revelation 3;10 to keep us from the hour of temptation,..because the Lord on the Cross said, that our depts are "PAID IN FULL!"...PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Oh!...but you seem to believe that the Lords wrath is only a 24 hour event,..but that is not true.
Food for thought,..it does not matter whether one is killed at the beginning of the one 7 or whether one is killed by the Lord after the Great Tribultion,...either way,..an unbeliever who dies without Jesus as his Lord and Savior is destined for the lake of fire.

No my friend,..the Wrath of God begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20
This event begins slightly prior to Daniels beginning 70th week.
And the whole of Daniels 70th week is consists of the Wrath of God.

The wrath of God is not 24 hours long.

The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

Rev. 15:1, the “bowl judgments” are “the seven last plagues”, after the other plagues. The trumpets are also called plagues in Rev. 9:20. The “seven last plagues” must happen after the other plagues. In 17:1 “And one of the seven angels having the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on the many waters”.
Revelation 15:1
Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God's wrath to completion.

I believe the above proves that the Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long,..but entails a long length of time.

[MarkT]

Now Answer the following question:

This is funny!

After not being able to provide Scriptural support for his many assertions, and after being shown time and again his assertions on word study are completely incorrect, benny now demands and answers to his many questions.

Explain to this forum the true meaning of ...."Fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

The verse in question:
Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Is completed here:
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

While we in Heaven, ruling as Priests, the Remnant, joined by the surviving Meek, live on earth in the Sabbath Millennium.

The Jews who were not qualified to be among the Elect because of their disbelief in Jesus, yet because of their faith in God were brought into the Millennium to realize the Servant Messiah they had rejected is the same Messiah King they had hoped for, will be made jealous by our elevation and will hope to join us as Sheep at the end of the Millennium based on their obedience to Jesus who rules the Earth with an iron scepter.

Some Jews will even be gathered up so as to be rejected from the Wedding Feast of the Lamb so that there will be a witness to those who are on the earth as to what they are missing out upon in Heaven.

• Zep 1:7 Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the LORD is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited.
• Mt 22:1-14

What is the purpose of the above scripture?

The Bible provides the anwer:
Rom 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

[benny balerio]

When the King of the North attacks Israel and surrounds the Temple and then erects the midpoint abomination - then one who is like God will arise - Daniel 12:1.

You seem to imply that the antichrist is the king of the north....is this correct?

Anti-Christ, man of lawlessness (perdition), little horn, King of the North, beast of a man: these are all terms the Bible uses for the ruler who will come who will proclaim himself god.

Also,...you seem to imply that the antichrist is leading the ezekiel 38 attack against Israel??....is this correct?

Leading is not what the Bible says, but as a leading question, leading takes on many aspects.

Certainly, the King of the North is behind the ordering of the Gog/Magog invasion as Ezekiel terms it. It does involve the feet of the bear, the second end-time nation which comes under the control of the fourth terrible beast, or which, the little horn strives to rule, and he "hamstrings" three ruling ministers to take it over - so to speak.

In Daniel, he pitches his "royal" (the only Persian word in the Bible) tent at the Holy Mountain, so whether he is leading the charge or not, even though he is the leader behind the war, by the time the battle is decided, and when it is safe, he will make his entrance on the stage: after all, he has to be present in the Temple when the false prophet - who has power in Israel to set up the talking image of the beast of a man in the Temple (2Th 2:4), the abomination(s) of Dan 9:27 - presents him with his "war trophy."

You Quote:
Certainly, the King of the North is behind the ordering of the Gog/Magog invasion as Ezekiel terms it.

My Reply:
So tell us Mark,.....are you claiming that the anti-christ will sit back for 7 months while Israel buries the dead of Gog and Magog,..and then afterward,...come into the temple and commit the A.O.D.?
How is this possible knowing that the moment the A.O.D. comes to pass,...that the Lord Jesus has instructed the Jews to flee into the wilderness.

[MarkT]

Also,..why would the Lord cause a partial blindness to Israel today,..when we know that the Lord has stated that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile those who are in Christ Jesus.

It's God's Plan; you have a problem with that? Are you going to tell God what He should do?

And why do I have to answer for God's Plan? There is no difference between Jew and Gentile on many different levels. Paul wrote extensively on this subject in the book of Romans. I do not have anything to add to what Paul wrote, I can only go by what Paul wrote on this subject.

But God has caused Israel to be as she is today for His Purpose. That much we can know because of what Paul wrote in Romans. However, it is much beyond me to say why God has set up the Millennium as He has, so that we come in before the whole of Israel, or why they must be made jealous beforehand. That is beyond me, and God's Mind is not my mind for His Mind is so above mine I cannot fathom it.

You see Mark,..I do know the reason,..

This statement stands on its own.

and I know that the reason that the Lord has stated the above is because He intended to rescue the Bride prior to the Day of the Lord,..

Now you are supplying a reason - not by Scripture - but by your own conclusion. A conclusion, by the way, in which you have invested a lot of emotional energy, and are loath to abandon because it would mean you do not have an "easy out."

There is no Scriptural support to say that the rescue of the Elect happens before the Day of the Lord.

There is plenty of Scriptural support to say that the rescue of the Elect happens on the Day of the Lord.

which means that He will rescue the Bride prior to His wrath on the earth.1 Thessalonians 1;10

While that is true, it is an assumption on your part - which you cannot, and repeatedly cannot show, happens before the one 'seven,' which you ill-define with non-Biblical terms.

The rescue of the Elect, on the Day of the Lord, happens before the Wrath of God falls upon Israel and King of the North - on the same Day of the Lord. The Bowl Judgments are not said to be part of the Day of the Lord. They do, however, conclude the Wrath of the God which takes a considerable amount of time.

[MarkT]

No because of past experiance with you Mark,..I am convinced that you will attempt to denie the above somehow,...but I really intended for the Forum to read this.

Huh? Is this forum some sort of Judgment Seat?

Have I denied anything except what you assert without any Scriptural reference?

The Last 7 years that many of us call Daniels 70th week,..

That is another fallacy in argument.

Just because a lot of people call it that, it doesn't make it Biblically corrrect.

is also called by the Lord,..as "The Time of Jacobs Trouble"

The time of "Jacob's Trouble" I can conclude happens on the Day of the Lord, and continues on after it as well,

- however - you have NO Scriptural support to say that the time of "Jacob's Trouble" is the whole of the one 'seven.'

This fact will not keep you from making your (false) assertion, nor will it keep you from repeating it over and over again, which by the way, is another fallacy in argument!

Notice that He did not call it,..The Time of the Brides Trouble"

You should read more of what Paul has to say about the Roman army victory procession and how the same thing can mean two different things to two different types of people.

Of course the Day of the Lord has a different end for the Church. We are rescued from the coming Wrath.

Mark,..it is very much written that the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week,...But it is obvious to me that you cannot see this truth.

So much written that you cannot provide a single, concise Scriptural reference for it, yet I can provide a plethora of verses which confirms your worst fear: that you will have to face the Great Tribulation.

[benny balerio]

Actually, if it IS in the Bible, you ought to be able to provide a Scriptural reference which says it (the "one" who is "standing in the midst" (2Th 2:6-7)) is the Holy Spirit.
You can't do that, because you didn't do that.

My Reply:
Well,..your response here seems to be very evasive.
We know...

That is not a Scriptural reference which says the one standing in the midst IS the Holy Spirit.

The only reason you insist upon making the "one" the Holy Spirit is so you can have something to point to in order to say that we are 'out of here' before the man of lawlessness is revealed (at the midpoint abomination). However, Jesus will not come, and we will not be gathered up UNTIL that happens! That's what Paul wrote!

This then is just like what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse concerning the gathering of the Elect from the face of the earth: it comes after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation which is shortened for the Elect's sake, so that some of them will not die - ever - and that some are still alive and remain to witness bodily the Day of the Lord, when Jesus comes with all those He has awakened with the Last Trumpet call from their 'slumber' in death (Jn 5:24-25, 1Th 4:16) on the clouds to gather them up.

(1.) The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that (2.) the Holy spirit is omnipresent. This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!

While (1.) and (2.) are facts, when you say "This means..." you are assigning a role to a part of God which is not told to us in the Bible.

I would be very careful in teaching what the Holy Spirit does or does not do apart from what Scripture says!

Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's [sic] the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.

Scripture please!

• Heb 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
• Heb 4:6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience...

And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,...

That is an assumption on your part made without Scriptural reference, and again, I would not want to be in the position of saying what God will do apart from the Bible, or to describe something He does as a "task."

You Quote:
Scripture please!

• Heb 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
• Heb 4:6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience...

And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,...

That is an assumption on your part made without Scriptural reference, and again, I would not want to be in the position of saying what God will do apart from the Bible, or to describe something He does as a "task."[/quote]

My Reply:
In the verse of John 3;16......I did not read the word,..."UNLESS"
The only condition to eternal salvation is to Believe in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now tell us Mark,..where does it say..."UNLESS"?.......It's not there!

You Quote:
That is not a Scriptural reference which says the one standing in the midst IS the Holy Spirit.

The only reason you insist upon making the "one" the Holy Spirit is so you can have something to point to in order to say that we are 'out of here' before the man of lawlessness is revealed (at the midpoint abomination). However, Jesus will not come, and we will not be gathered up UNTIL that happens! That's what Paul wrote!


My Reply:

Departure and the Restrainer
Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:



I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.[11]



Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:



But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.[12]



Conclusion



The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!
http://bibleone.net/print_tbs118.html

[benny balerio]

Oh really? Please name all the Spirits you eliminated that can't stand in the midst before the anti-Christ.

...

I thought so, you can't name any Spirit you eliminated in your 'process of elimation.' It was no process at all. You just named the "one" the Holy Spirit in your hope to escape hardship.

My Reply:
. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way

Mark,..who is that restrains lawlessness on a global scale,..the only one that has that power is the Holy Spirit.
There is no other.

[benny balerio]

The are post tribbers ,...pre-wrathers,..and pre-tribbers on this forum,..and out of all the debates that I have had with them,...You Mark,..are the only one who has refused to attempt to suggest the identity of the Restrainer.

That is a fallacy in argument:

Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition): This is the familiar argument that some policy, behavior, or practice is right or acceptable because "it's always been done that way."

Argumentum ad numerum (argument or appeal to numbers): This fallacy is the attempt to prove something by showing how many people think that it's true. But no matter how many people believe something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or right.

Argumentum ad populum (argument or appeal to the public): This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by showing that the public agrees with you.

If you will not do so,..them what is the point of debating this?...it's like you are afraid to step into the water.

We are not debating; you are arguing for something which is not in the Bible, and I am simply stating that in response. There is no debate: there is only you saying something for which you have no Scriptural support.

Afraid to step into the water? I have been posting responses to your fantastic claims for pages now... I think this assertion of yours falls on its face.

You Quote:
That is a fallacy in argument:

Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition): This is the familiar argument that some policy, behavior, or practice is right or acceptable because "it's always been done that way."

Argumentum ad numerum (argument or appeal to numbers): This fallacy is the attempt to prove something by showing how many people think that it's true. But no matter how many people believe something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or right.

Argumentum ad populum (argument or appeal to the public): This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by showing that the public agrees with you.

My Reply:
Looks to me that you are arguing to avoid a question.
But my brothers and sisters here can see through your response.

[benny balerio]

Now Answer the following question:

This is funny!

After not being able to provide Scriptural support for his many assertions, and after being shown time and again his assertions on word study are completely incorrect, benny now demands and answers to his many questions.

Explain to this forum the true meaning of ...."Fullness of the Gentiles has come in"

The verse in question:
Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Is completed here:
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

While we in Heaven, ruling as Priests, the Remnant, joined by the surviving Meek, live on earth in the Sabbath Millennium.

The Jews who were not qualified to be among the Elect because of their disbelief in Jesus, yet because of their faith in God were brought into the Millennium to realize the Servant Messiah they had rejected is the same Messiah King they had hoped for, will be made jealous by our elevation and will hope to join us as Sheep at the end of the Millennium based on their obedience to Jesus who rules the Earth with an iron scepter.

Some Jews will even be gathered up so as to be rejected from the Wedding Feast of the Lamb so that there will be a witness to those who are on the earth as to what they are missing out upon in Heaven.

• Zep 1:7 Be silent before the Sovereign LORD, for the day of the LORD is near. The LORD has prepared a sacrifice; he has consecrated those he has invited.
• Mt 22:1-14

What is the purpose of the above scripture?

The Bible provides the anwer:
Rom 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

The verse in question:
Rom 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

You Quote:
Is completed here:
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

While we in Heaven, ruling as Priests, the Remnant, joined by the surviving Meek, live on earth in the Sabbath Millennium.


My Reply:
You may not realize it,..but you are placing your theory in quicksand.
You see the Word of God states that we will reign with the Lord,...so in essence,..you are claiming that there is a rapture after the great Tribulation and then you and claiming that the Bride will remain in heaven for a thousand years.
No Mark,........When the Lord returns,......He will be bringing the Bride with Him prior to armageddon.
Jude 1;14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Now about the "Fulness of the Gentiles"
The timing of the rapture is not about a Day or an Hour.
But instead,..is about a man,...woman or ..Child,.that only God the Father knows who that last person will be, who will ask the Lord Jesus into their heart as Lord and Savior.
When this comes to pass,..the "Fulness of the Gentiles" will be complete and then the rapture will occur.
Today,..there is no difference between Jew and Gentile,...during the church age.
and once the rapture occurs,...the jew will no longer be partially blind and many will come to the Lord Jesus.

You Quote:
The Jews who were not qualified to be among the Elect because of their disbelief in Jesus, yet because of their faith in God were brought into the Millennium to realize the Servant Messiah they had rejected is the same Messiah King they had hoped for, will be made jealous by our elevation and will hope to join us as Sheep at the end of the Millennium based on their obedience to Jesus who rules the Earth with an iron scepter.

My Reply:
You greatly are in error:
The Lord says:
Romans 11;26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27And this isf my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”g

ALSO:

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[benny balerio]

Also,..why would the Lord cause a partial blindness to Israel today,..when we know that the Lord has stated that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile those who are in Christ Jesus.

It's God's Plan; you have a problem with that? Are you going to tell God what He should do?

And why do I have to answer for God's Plan? There is no difference between Jew and Gentile on many different levels. Paul wrote extensively on this subject in the book of Romans. I do not have anything to add to what Paul wrote, I can only go by what Paul wrote on this subject.

But God has caused Israel to be as she is today for His Purpose. That much we can know because of what Paul wrote in Romans. However, it is much beyond me to say why God has set up the Millennium as He has, so that we come in before the whole of Israel, or why they must be made jealous beforehand. That is beyond me, and God's Mind is not my mind for His Mind is so above mine I cannot fathom it.

You see Mark,..I do know the reason,..

This statement stands on its own.

and I know that the reason that the Lord has stated the above is because He intended to rescue the Bride prior to the Day of the Lord,..

Now you are supplying a reason - not by Scripture - but by your own conclusion. A conclusion, by the way, in which you have invested a lot of emotional energy, and are loath to abandon because it would mean you do not have an "easy out."

There is no Scriptural support to say that the rescue of the Elect happens before the Day of the Lord.

There is plenty of Scriptural support to say that the rescue of the Elect happens on the Day of the Lord.

which means that He will rescue the Bride prior to His wrath on the earth.1 Thessalonians 1;10

While that is true, it is an assumption on your part - which you cannot, and repeatedly cannot show, happens before the one 'seven,' which you ill-define with non-Biblical terms.

The rescue of the Elect, on the Day of the Lord, happens before the Wrath of God falls upon Israel and King of the North - on the same Day of the Lord. The Bowl Judgments are not said to be part of the Day of the Lord. They do, however, conclude the Wrath of the God which takes a considerable amount of time.

You Quote:
There is plenty of Scriptural support to say that the rescue of the Elect happens on the Day of the Lord.

My Reply:
Well,..if there were plenty of scriptural support to back up your claim,..then why have you not produced these scriptures?
Is not this debate in progress so that all who read this can learn and discern what is the truth?

Now according to scripture and several interpretations,..all of them reveal that the Bride was rescued "PRIOR"...."BEFORE" the Wrath of God begins.
Did you not admit several times that the Day of the Lord and the Wrath of God are one and the same?

How many ways do you need to have interpretations of 1 Thessalonians 1;10 explained to you before you realize that the Bride is rescued before the Day of the Lord comes to pass???

1 Thessalonians 1;10


New International Version (©1984)
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
New Living Translation (©2007)
And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God's Son from heaven--Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.

English Standard Version (©2001)
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

International Standard Version (©2008)
and to wait for his Son whom he raised from the dead to come back from heaven. This Jesus is the one who rescues us from the coming wrath.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
While you await his Son from Heaven, Yeshua, him whom he raised from among the dead; He is The One who delivers us from the fury that is coming.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
and to wait for his Son to come from heaven. His Son is Jesus, whom he brought back to life. Jesus is the one who rescues us from [God's] coming anger.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.

American King James Version
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

American Standard Version
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead,) Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.

Darby Bible Translation
and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath.

English Revised Version
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivereth us from the wrath to come.

Webster's Bible Translation
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivered us from the wrath to come.

Weymouth New Testament
and to await the return from Heaven of His Son, whom He raised from among the dead--even Jesus, our Deliverer from God's coming anger.

World English Bible
and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Young's Literal Translation
and to wait for His Son from the heavens, whom He did raise out of the dead -- Jesus, who is rescuing us from the anger that is coming.

[benny balerio]

No because of past experiance with you Mark,..I am convinced that you will attempt to denie the above somehow,...but I really intended for the Forum to read this.

Huh? Is this forum some sort of Judgment Seat?

Have I denied anything except what you assert without any Scriptural reference?

The Last 7 years that many of us call Daniels 70th week,..

That is another fallacy in argument.

Just because a lot of people call it that, it doesn't make it Biblically corrrect.

is also called by the Lord,..as "The Time of Jacobs Trouble"

The time of "Jacob's Trouble" I can conclude happens on the Day of the Lord, and continues on after it as well,

- however - you have NO Scriptural support to say that the time of "Jacob's Trouble" is the whole of the one 'seven.'

This fact will not keep you from making your (false) assertion, nor will it keep you from repeating it over and over again, which by the way, is another fallacy in argument!

Notice that He did not call it,..The Time of the Brides Trouble"

You should read more of what Paul has to say about the Roman army victory procession and how the same thing can mean two different things to two different types of people.

Of course the Day of the Lord has a different end for the Church. We are rescued from the coming Wrath.

Mark,..it is very much written that the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week,...But it is obvious to me that you cannot see this truth.

So much written that you cannot provide a single, concise Scriptural reference for it, yet I can provide a plethora of verses which confirms your worst fear: that you will have to face the Great Tribulation.

You Quote:
That is another fallacy in argument.

Just because a lot of people call it that, it doesn't make it Biblically corrrect.

My Reply:
Are you really intending to mean..Politically correct? LOL


You Quote:
however - you have NO Scriptural support to say that the time of "Jacob's Trouble" is the whole of the one 'seven.'


My Reply:
Of Course I have scriptural support.

24“Seventy ‘sevens’c are decreed for your people and your holy city to finishd transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

Notice that Gabriel said to Daniel..."YOUR PEOPLE"
This is referring to to Jewish race throughout all the 490 years decreed.

483 years of this decree has been completed ,..awaiting the church age to expire before the last 7 years comes to pass.
The church age was a mystery during Daniels time.
The first 483 years was without the presence of the Bride.
The last 7 years will be without the Bride also.
This is why the last 7 years is called the "Time of Jacobs Trouble"

[MarkT]

So in both cases, (the Olivet Discourse and Revelation's parallel account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16) we have the Rapture, the gathering from the clouds, happening AFTER the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation. We are told repeatedly that we will be handed over for oppression and persecution and that God expects the Elect, us, to endure this indignity, pain, suffering, and wholesale death and slaughter - patiently.

Your response here suggests that you believe that Gog is the antichrist,

No one really knows who Gog is. He could be the anti-Christ.

Ezekiel prophesied against Gog of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (v. 2). The exact identity of each proper name has occupied many expositors and spawned many and varied interpretations of this text. The data will be examined in order to determine what one can and cannot understand about these terms (cf. Edwin M. Yamauchi, Foes From the Northern Frontier [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1982]).

The major term is Gog. Normally Gog is considered to be a person. A significant difficulty in the identification of this term is that the term is only used twice in the OT: in 1 Chronicles 5:4 and in the passage under discussion. Gog in 1 Chronicles 5:4 was a Reubenite prince, but there appears to be no basis for associating this Reubenite prince with the Gog in Ezekiel.

Expositor's Bible Commentary of the Old Testament on Ezekiel 38.

Ezekiel 38:18 is not unlike Daniel 12:1. The actions in Daniel by the King of the North will provoke a response from God. Notice in the beginning of Ezekiel 38:4 that God is directing the action Gog takes, and notice also that Gog is not alone in attacking Israel with the nations of the North. So it is not clear that Gog is the King of the North spoken by Daniel who I would identify as the anti-Christ.

..and that Ezekiel 38 occurs when armageddon occurs.?

Nope.

Like I just said, Ezekiel 38:18 is not unlike Daniel 12:1. Following the midpoint abomination, God acts. One of those acts is an earthquake in Israel. OT prophecy says that when Christ returns, that He will split the Mount of Olives in two - Zec 14:4. Likewise in Acts 1:11, two Angels tell the Disciples that as Christ rose from the Mount of Olives so too will He return as He went up. In Revelation 6 with the opening of the sixth Seal, there are two earthquakes. The first prophecy says is to shake things up so what cannot be shaken (the truth: God) remains - the second comes after the sun/moon/star event - on the Day of the Lord.

So Ezekiel 38:19 is a Day of the Lord prophecy. Jesus puts the Day of the Lord after the midpoint abomination in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:29); not before the one 'seven' as you assert without any Scriptural reference.
______________________________

The battle of Armageddon happens at the end of the one 'seven.'

Armageddon generally refers to the large plain (the Plain of Esdraelon) that spans out from the base of Mount Megiddo (the literal meaning of Har-Magedon) and is near the city of Megiddo, approximately sixty miles north of Jerusalem.
Robert Kamp, The Sign, Crossway Books, 1992, p.288

It is associated with an ancient battlefield where Isreal won a deciding victory over its enemies. The battle at Armageddon is not said to be part of the Day of the Lord.

OT prophecy writes of two battles occurring on the Day of the Lord: one centered around Jerusalem concerns Israel, and another in the "Valley of Decision," which scholars attribute to the Valley of Jehoshophat, an ancient battlefield around Bethlehem to the south of Jerusalem.

So doubly no, Ezekiel 38:18-20 does not occur at Armageddon. However, Ezekiel 38:22 does suggest some of the following plagues/desolations as are carried out by the various Trumpet/Bowl Judgments.

Or are you saying that Ezekiel 38 happens when the A.O.D. begins?

Ezekiel 38 spans an amount of time. It does not mention the midpoint abomination which Revelation reveals is the talking image of the anti-Christ.

By my reckoning based on the overall sequence of events of the one 'seven,' the midpoint abomination would occur between the events listed in Ezekiel 38:18 and 38:19.

Mark,.I am just trying to clarify exactly what you mean here.

After your take on the Bible and word study, I don't expect you to understand my eschatology or get it right.

I apologize,..but I really am having a hard time pin pointing your intended meaning here,...please make it clear for all of us to understand when exactly you believe that Ezekiel 38 will occur and if you are claiming that the antichrist is Gog?

I've done that.

[MarkT]

Concerning the Day of the Lord, as posted on page 6 of this thread on the 12th of May at 9:58am when I show that there is absolutely NO Scriptural reference for benny's repeated insistence that the Day of the Lord is the same as the one 'seven,' benny replies:

I believe that you are wrong Mark.

Well that's great benny, but without any Scriptural reference to back up your assertion, it's just your belief.

I believe God rides a Harley-Davidson.

I don't have any Scripture to prove that, but I'll just keep repeating it. I'll even draw inference from oil, power, and smoke to "show" I am right by the fallacy of argument concerning cause and effect.

So you can believe that ~ the Day of the Lord Begins slightly prior to Daniels 70th week,... and that Daniels 70th week is marked by a 7 year covenant, and that all of Daniels 70th week is the wrath of God ~ but without Scripture to back it up, you have no real basis other than you say so.

First of all,..Daniel 11;36....proves Gods wrath is not 24 hours long

I never said God's Wrath was only 24 hours long.

I said all the events associated with the sixth Seal and our being gathered up AND the Wrath that the Lord will tramp out in the Land of Israel could be accomplished in one Jewish Day.

I never stipulated that all God's Wrath, which does take time, takes place solely on the Day of the Lord.

I said the Day of the Lord begins God's Wrath.

[MarkT]

All these prophecies are directed at unrepentant Israel by the way. It is Israel who disobeys the Lord by their unbelief in Jesus. They will pay a terrible price for that disobedience on the Day of the Lord which begins the time of Jacob's Trouble. However, a third of Israel will be saved out of the time of Jacob's trouble... and rescue that starts when those in Judea flee at the midpoint of the one 'seven.' The Day of the Lord follows some time afterward by the span of the "shortened" Great Tribulation.

In the "Time of Jacobs Trouble",.. why do you believe that the Bride enters it?

I never said the Church bears the Wrath of God.

I said the Church is removed on the Day of the Lord, as established by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and backed up by the Revelaiton of the sixth Seal's events about the Day of the Lord which results in the Great Multitude arriving in the barn of Heaven out of the Great Tribulation - because that is the timing for the Rapture.

So I find it curious that you would believe I believe what you wrote after so many pages.

It's as though you are segregating the Jews,...after all,..arn't there unrepentant gentiles on the earth too?

I don't separate the Jews: God does.

Two-thirds of the Jews will perish. 99% of the wicked (unrepentant Gentiles) will perish. As my New York friends would say: "You got a problem wit dat?"

Prophecy says that God will shepherd a Remnant through the desolations of the one 'seven' (Rev 12:6 and 14; Rev 16:15; Isa 4:2-6; 42:16 and Isa 10:20-21).

It seems that you have a dilemma.
First you claim that the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours long and begins when the Lord returns after Daniels 70th week.
And then you state "the Day of the Lord which begins the time of Jacob's Trouble"

No, I don't have a dilemma.
I did not claim the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours long.
...I said all the events could be accomplished in one Hebrew day.
I did not claim the Lord's parousia happens after the one 'seven.' (It is NOT Daniel's 70th week.)

Yes, the time of Jacob's Trouble starts on the Day of the Lord after the Elect is delivered to the barn of Heaven.

However, a third of Israel will be saved out of the time of Jacob's trouble... and rescue that starts when those in Judea flee at the midpoint of the one 'seven.' The Day of the Lord follows some time afterward by the span of the "shortened" Great Tribulation.

Hmmmm.......It is obvious to me that you state that the Day of the Lord begins at midpoint of Daniels 70th week.

I JUST wrote that the Day of the Lord follows some time afterward (of the midpoint of the one 'seven') by the span of the "shortened" Great Tribulation.

If it is obvious to you what you wrote - then it is obvious to me you don't understand what I wrote.

I believe that you are confused in your belief.

And I believe God rides a Harley-Davidson. I have a poster to prove it...

You do not show a harmonic flow of scriptures.

Actually, I already have: in the Pre-Wrath section. Sorry, no debate allowed there.

Now I am beginning to understand why you are evasive in some of the questions that I have placed on you.
It has been very difficult to pin down your intended explainations of your belief.
I am sure that many of the readers here would agree.
I think that you should carefully think it through before you post your statements,...I am just giving you some brotherly advice.

I have not been evasive at all.
You have shown an inability to grasp other people's ideas that differ from your own.
It doesn't matter how many agree with whom at this point.
I will consider the veracity of your brotherly advice with all the weight of Scripture on your side of your argument.

[MarkT]

Also Joel 2;16 says:
Let the bridegroom leave his room

and the bride her chamber.

So it is at the time just moments before this invasion of Israel in the Ezekial 38 battle when the Rapture of the Bride would occur.

A couple of errors here.

First, Joel 2:16 is not a veiled refence to the parousia of Christ coming for the Elect as it is in the Songs of Solomon which does include a figurative appearance of the Lord at the "latter rains" in SS 5:2-6.

Joel 2:16 lists all those who are called to the assembly in v. 15 to include those who normally would not be disturbed at all - the groom and the bride in their chamber.

To say that the reference to the bride here is the Church begs the question then why the groom is called likewise. Both are being called. In the Rapture, Jesus gathers the Elect. He is not called; Jesus calls with the Trumpet of God.

Secondly, the battle of Joel 2 is not the same as the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel 38.

In Joel, Israel is being overcome by God's Army: it is the time of Jacob's Trouble.
In Ezekiel 38, first the North invades Israel, and then God fights them.

They are not the same.

[MarkT]

When you read Ezekial 38;18-20
This is when the Day of the Lord begins, that continues throughout all of Daniels 70th week the Time of Jacobs trouble.

Ezekiel 38:18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground.

While I can agree that v. 19-20 describe events which occur on the Day of the Lord -

- these verses do not describe the beginning of the Day of the Lord!

We all know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the air just prior to the beginning Day of The Lord.

No, we all don't know that.

We know from the Bible that Jesus gathers the Elect AFTER the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse.

We know from the Bible that Paul says we are gathered up on the Day of Christ which he equates to the Day of the Lord.

We know from the Bible that first comes the sun/moon/star event of the Day of the Lord and then the Great Multitude show up in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.

There is no Bible verse which says the Elect are gathered before the Day of the Lord.

[MarkT]

What I am pointing out is that the Day of the Lord begins with Exekial 38;18-20....which matches with revelation 6;14-17.....and joel 2

Again, Ezekiel 38:18-20 does not match Joel 2.

Ezekiel 38:18-20 does match an element of Rev 6:14-17 because it includes the displacing earthquake when Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives on the Day of the Lord.

This event happens before the mustering of God's army which is mentioned in Joel 2, and the gathering of the Elect.

Ezekiel 38:18-20 does not match Isaiah 2:19, but Isa 2:19 does match Revelation 6:15.

and that the rapture(Caught Up) occurs just before Gods Wrath(Look at above description again)

What do you know benny! We actually agree again!

Take notice that this Ezekial 38 battle occurs when Israel and the World believes that they are dwelling safely.

Yes, it happens during the first half of the one 'seven,' right before the midpoint abomination.

Ezekial 38...describes that the world was living in peace and Israel and the world was not expecting an attack against Israel which is also the time that God's FURY came up in His face, Gods Wrath had Been activated by this attack..

There's nothing explicitly wrong with what you have to say so far... but then you say:

It is the beginning of the "Day of the Lord"

There is NO Scriptural support for this statement.

You have limited matches between Ezekiel and Revelation because they both describe events on the Day of the Lord.

You have no match between Ezekiel and Joel because they both describe different events which happen on the Day of the Lord.

While Jesus gathers up the Elect on the Day of the Lord before His coming Wrath on the same Day, you have nothing in the Scripture you have presented so far for saying this happens before the start of the one 'seven.'

[MarkT]

Where stands it written? - (for example:) Dan 11:33

It is just common sense.
Just because one is very familiar with scriptures such as endtime prophecy,..does not mean that they are saved,..without Jesus,..we have nothing.
I am sure that some who are left behind, will recognize who the anti-christ is when he confirms a 7 year covenant.

Again... you provide no Scriptural support but rely on your own understanding.

If one looks at the action of these people in destroying the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Holy Jewish Temple in Jerusalem), the most obvious conclusion from history is that this event was fulfilled in the sacking and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD, which would identify the people as the Roman Empire led by the Roman General Titus. The prince who is to come would then be associated somehow with the Roman Empire or what has been designated by most evangelical commentaries as the "Revived Roman Empire". Observe carefully that this verse does not state that the prince comes at this time nor that the city is destroyed by him but by his people.

Just so we can see for ourselves, you have not provided any Scriptural reference for saying the man of lawlessness is revealed when the one 'seven' starts.

And just for good word study: the ruler who will come does NOT "confirm" anything. He prevails a covenant.

[MarkT]

Yes, the Church does go through the first half of the one 'seven;' they will see the midpoint abomination, and we will suffer greatly during the Great Tribulation.

That is incorrect,..I assure you that the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week.

Again, you have NO scriptural support for your naysaying - or for your whole eschatology for that matter...

Allow me to ask you a question.
What is the identity of the those fleeing in the following scripture.?

Matthew 24 does not say the Church does not enter the one 'seven.'
Jesus does say the Elect are subject to the Great Tribulation though.

In the NT, whenever the word Elect is used to describe a people, it is synonymous with the Church.

Once again, you cannot provide Scriptural support for even the simplest elements of your eschatology.

Furthermore, to correct you, "brother," it is not "Daniel's 70th week."
Daniel does not "own" the "week," nor does Gabriel call it the "70th week."
Gabriel, a messenger from God, calls it the one 'seven.'

Yes that is correct,...because it is 1 Thessalonians 1;10 that reveals that the Bride will not enter Gods wrath,...in which begins with Ezekiel 38.

Of course a Pre-Wrath Rapture is Biblically correct.

However, you are incorrect that the Rapture begins with Ezekiel 38.

Ezekiel 38:4-13 summed up in v.18 is how the King of the North comes to be at the Holy Mountain in Luke 21:20 and Daniel 11:45 before the midpoint abomination.

That is when the man of lawlessness will be revealed: when his talking image is unveiled in the Temple.

This begins the Great Tribulation.

This will decimate the Elect.

And only then, before all the Elect are killed, does Jesus come to rescue those who are stil alive and are left upon the face of the earth.

Now I will ask you once more,....Are you claiming that Gog is the anti-christ?

Asked and answered.

[MarkT]

The Gog/Magog invasion of Israel happens:
after 1. the anti-Christ prevails a covenant upon Israel
and after 2. the false prophet makes fire fall from out of the sky (a nuke)

-(this act of war is the excuse for the invasion)
-(the false prophet may conspire with the anti-Christ to precipitate a reason to invade)
-(the abomination is the false prophet's peace offering to the conquering King of the North)

but before the midpoint abomination's eve when there is a surrounding of Jerusalem by the King of the North's army.

The Gog/Magog invasion using the Russian army (feet of the bear) is how he gets to surround Jerusalem.

Are you saying that the king of the North is Gog?

No, I am not saying Gog is the King of the North; who Gog is exactly isn't clear. They may be one and the same person. The Bible doesn't resolve this issue. Scholars haven't been able to decipher it either. I don't know why you insist I label him. If you can label him, you do so quite apart from the Bible.

Are you saying that the antichrist is the king of the north?

Yes, I can equate the anti-Christ with the King of the North.

Are you saying that Gog and the king of the North join together to attack Jerusalem at midpoint?

There are ten other ministers presiding over the fourth terrible beast of the North which in turn, is made up of three end-time nations. Gog and the King of the North, if not the same person, are playing on the same side.

[benny balerio]

So in both cases, (the Olivet Discourse and Revelation's parallel account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16) we have the Rapture, the gathering from the clouds, happening AFTER the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation. We are told repeatedly that we will be handed over for oppression and persecution and that God expects the Elect, us, to endure this indignity, pain, suffering, and wholesale death and slaughter - patiently.

Your response here suggests that you believe that Gog is the antichrist,

No one really knows who Gog is. He could be the anti-Christ.

Ezekiel prophesied against Gog of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (v. 2). The exact identity of each proper name has occupied many expositors and spawned many and varied interpretations of this text. The data will be examined in order to determine what one can and cannot understand about these terms (cf. Edwin M. Yamauchi, Foes From the Northern Frontier [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1982]).

The major term is Gog. Normally Gog is considered to be a person. A significant difficulty in the identification of this term is that the term is only used twice in the OT: in 1 Chronicles 5:4 and in the passage under discussion. Gog in 1 Chronicles 5:4 was a Reubenite prince, but there appears to be no basis for associating this Reubenite prince with the Gog in Ezekiel.

Expositor's Bible Commentary of the Old Testament on Ezekiel 38.

Ezekiel 38:18 is not unlike Daniel 12:1. The actions in Daniel by the King of the North will provoke a response from God. Notice in the beginning of Ezekiel 38:4 that God is directing the action Gog takes, and notice also that Gog is not alone in attacking Israel with the nations of the North. So it is not clear that Gog is the King of the North spoken by Daniel who I would identify as the anti-Christ.

..and that Ezekiel 38 occurs when armageddon occurs.?

Nope.

Like I just said, Ezekiel 38:18 is not unlike Daniel 12:1. Following the midpoint abomination, God acts. One of those acts is an earthquake in Israel. OT prophecy says that when Christ returns, that He will split the Mount of Olives in two - Zec 14:4. Likewise in Acts 1:11, two Angels tell the Disciples that as Christ rose from the Mount of Olives so too will He return as He went up. In Revelation 6 with the opening of the sixth Seal, there are two earthquakes. The first prophecy says is to shake things up so what cannot be shaken (the truth: God) remains - the second comes after the sun/moon/star event - on the Day of the Lord.

So Ezekiel 38:19 is a Day of the Lord prophecy. Jesus puts the Day of the Lord after the midpoint abomination in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:29); not before the one 'seven' as you assert without any Scriptural reference.
______________________________

The battle of Armageddon happens at the end of the one 'seven.'

Armageddon generally refers to the large plain (the Plain of Esdraelon) that spans out from the base of Mount Megiddo (the literal meaning of Har-Magedon) and is near the city of Megiddo, approximately sixty miles north of Jerusalem.
Robert Kamp, The Sign, Crossway Books, 1992, p.288

It is associated with an ancient battlefield where Isreal won a deciding victory over its enemies. The battle at Armageddon is not said to be part of the Day of the Lord.

OT prophecy writes of two battles occurring on the Day of the Lord: one centered around Jerusalem concerns Israel, and another in the "Valley of Decision," which scholars attribute to the Valley of Jehoshophat, an ancient battlefield around Bethlehem to the south of Jerusalem.

So doubly no, Ezekiel 38:18-20 does not occur at Armageddon. However, Ezekiel 38:22 does suggest some of the following plagues/desolations as are carried out by the various Trumpet/Bowl Judgments.

Or are you saying that Ezekiel 38 happens when the A.O.D. begins?

Ezekiel 38 spans an amount of time. It does not mention the midpoint abomination which Revelation reveals is the talking image of the anti-Christ.

By my reckoning based on the overall sequence of events of the one 'seven,' the midpoint abomination would occur between the events listed in Ezekiel 38:18 and 38:19.

Mark,.I am just trying to clarify exactly what you mean here.

After your take on the Bible and word study, I don't expect you to understand my eschatology or get it right.

I apologize,..but I really am having a hard time pin pointing your intended meaning here,...please make it clear for all of us to understand when exactly you believe that Ezekiel 38 will occur and if you are claiming that the antichrist is Gog?

I've done that.

You Quote:
]So in both cases, (the Olivet Discourse and Revelation's parallel account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13-16) we have the Rapture, the gathering from the clouds, happening AFTER the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation. We are told repeatedly that we will be handed over for oppression and persecution and that God expects the Elect, us, to endure this indignity, pain, suffering, and wholesale death and slaughter - patiently.[/color][/quote]

My Reply:
No Mark,...You speak as though the Bride must earn their salvation by enduring pain and persecution.
No...there is nothing that we can add to the Cross of Calvary,..our debt has already been paid.

You Quote:
No one really knows who Gog is. He could be the anti-Christ.

Ezekiel prophesied against Gog of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (v. 2). The exact identity of each proper name has occupied many expositors and spawned many and varied interpretations of this text. The data will be examined in order to determine what one can and cannot understand about these terms (cf. Edwin M. Yamauchi, Foes From the Northern Frontier [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1982]).

The major term is Gog. Normally Gog is considered to be a person. A significant difficulty in the identification of this term is that the term is only used twice in the OT: in 1 Chronicles 5:4 and in the passage under discussion. Gog in 1 Chronicles 5:4 was a Reubenite prince, but there appears to be no basis for associating this Reubenite prince with the Gog in Ezekiel.

Expositor's Bible Commentary of the Old Testament on Ezekiel 38.

Ezekiel 38:18 is not unlike Daniel 12:1. The actions in Daniel by the King of the North will provoke a response from God. Notice in the beginning of Ezekiel 38:4 that God is directing the action Gog takes, and notice also that Gog is not alone in attacking Israel with the nations of the North. So it is not clear that Gog is the King of the North spoken by Daniel who I would identify as the anti-Christ.

My Reply:
You claim that Gog is the king of the North.

And then you Quote:
Like I just said, Ezekiel 38:18 is not unlike Daniel 12:1. Following the midpoint abomination, God acts. One of those acts is an earthquake in Israel. OT prophecy says that when Christ returns, that He will split the Mount of Olives in two - Zec 14:4. Likewise in Acts 1:11, two Angels tell the Disciples that as Christ rose from the Mount of Olives so too will He return as He went up. In Revelation 6 with the opening of the sixth Seal, there are two earthquakes. The first prophecy says is to shake things up so what cannot be shaken (the truth: God) remains - the second comes after the sun/moon/star event - on the Day of the Lord.

So Ezekiel 38:19 is a Day of the Lord prophecy. Jesus puts the Day of the Lord after the midpoint abomination in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:29); not before the one 'seven' as you assert without any Scriptural reference.

My Reply:
The earthquake of Ezekiel 38;20 is not the same as the Mount Olivet splitting event when the Lord returns.
Nor is the Ezekiel 38;20 earthquake the same as revelation 16;20

Again you fail to realize that the Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long.

The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

Rev. 15:1, the “bowl judgments” are “the seven last plagues”, after the other plagues. The trumpets are also called plagues in Rev. 9:20. The “seven last plagues” must happen after the other plagues. In 17:1 “And one of the seven angels having the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on the many waters”.
Revelation 15:1
Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God's wrath to completion.

I believe the above proves that the Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long,..but entails a long length of time.

Nor does Ezekiel 38 occur during the one 7(Daniels 70th week)

You Quote:
The battle at Armageddon is not said to be part of the Day of the Lord.

My Reply:
You contradict yourself Mark.
You been telling us that the Day of the Lord is 24 hours long and occurs when the Lord comes back.
We very well know that when the Lord returns to earth to touch down on Mount Olivet,..that He will fight Armageddon.
Mark it seems to me that you really do not know what you really believe.

You Quote:
By my reckoning based on the overall sequence of events of the one 'seven,' the midpoint abomination would occur between the events listed in Ezekiel 38:18 and 38:19.


My Reply:
You really are not paying attention to scripture.

My Reply:
So tell us Mark,.....are you claiming that the anti-christ will sit back for 7 months while Israel buries the dead of Gog and Magog,..and then afterward,...come into the temple and commit the A.O.D.?
How is this possible knowing that the moment the A.O.D. comes to pass,...that the Lord Jesus has instructed the Jews to flee into the wilderness.

[MarkT]

Yes Stephen was a martyr,....But Stephen is a member of the Bride,..therefore,...he is not under the alter.

Nonsense.

Again you have NO Scriptural support for your statements.

By the way, your spelling is atrocious.
You also don't know how to show Scripture chapter [colon] verse. No one uses a semi-colon.

Those under the alter I believe are O.T saints and prophets.

And we're back to demonstrating absurdity by being absurd:
I believe God rides a Harley-Davidson.

I say nonsense. This is how the Bible defines those under the Altar of God as revealed with the breaking of the fifth Seal which keeps the Scroll from being read and having its decrees go forth:

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Stephen did that. He is most certainly qualified to be among the fifth Seal martyrs.

The Bride does not enter Daniels 70th week in which has been identified as Gods wrath.

Again, it is NOT Daniel's 70th week.
You use un-Biblical language and not proper definitions as they are presented in the Bible.

What you say is NOT found in the Bible.
What IS in the Bible is that we will be handed over and put to death.

1 Thessalonians 1;10 is clear that the Bride will not enter Gods wrath.

Which you mess up because you define the whole of the one 'seven' as God's Wrath; it is not the same.

You see, defining terms is important.

Of course, the Elect does not suffer God's Wrath. Paul said so.

It is also clear (revelation 3;10) that the Bride will not enter the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Whenever a Pre-Tribber says "it is clear" I always run for the hills because I can be sure it is anything but clear!

Revelation 3:10 is not an absolute protection; I wrote about this in detail before. Perhaps it is beyond your ability to understand.

[MarkT]

I think the first four Seals have already been opened and we are experiencing the results of those Spirits at work in the world to bring us to a fever-pitch in which apostasy is nearly the norm, and the wicked are all clamoring for a leader to "fix" things for them.

The first four seals have not yet been opened.
Because the wrath of God (Day of the Lord) is yet future.

None of the Seals unleash Biblical Wrath.

The Wrath of God does not go forth until the Scroll can be opened.

The Lord is still sitting on the Throne of Grace,..and has not yet taken the seals from the Father and stood on His feet to judge the world.

More assertions without any Scriptural support for your "opinion."

Aposasy has been active since the beginning of the world,..and is not some special one time event pertaining to the Bride.

Nonsense. The Church of Laodicea may very well describe the end-time Church, and as such, definitely does become apostate. That is even how scholars and commentators refer to her.

[MarkT]

The opening of the fifth Seal comes before the Day of the Lord because it comes before the sixth Seal's opening which, in turn, is tied to two earthquakes and the celestial signs which herald the Day of the Lord. This puts the fift Seal's opening as happening before Mt 24:29, and we're back to the bullet point possibilities listed above.

Actually,..I believe that martyredom of the Trib saints will not begin to occur until the A.O.D. begins.

There is no such thing as "tribulation saints" to differentiate the Elect of that time period from the Elect of any other time during the Church Age.

Revelation 13;5 reveals that the beast was permitted to continue for forty-two months,...in which this indicates that the beast was present prior to the A.O.D.

Yep.

But when the A.O.D. begins,..it is not until then, that the beast is granted power and authority to overcome the saints.

Nope. The Bible says that:
Rev 13:7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

This makes sense because we know that the Jewish priests will be worshipping in the third temple,..and that the two witnesses who are saints too,....including the 144,000 anointed,....will result in the great multitude in coming to Christ Jesus.

This is Pre-Trib fantasy: the 144,000 are not evangelicals. They do not go 2 by 2 to homes and convert Jews and the wicked.

According to the Bible, the 144,000 go wherever Jesus goes. And when Jesus goes out into the world: He has an army with Him. Ergo: the 144,000 are part of that army. I will go further: the 144,000 ARE His army.

The saving of these people in such a large innumerable amount of people cannot be accomplished by the 144,000 when they are on the run....Those who had not yet made up thier mind obviously would not be running from the AC.

The Great Multitude's appearance in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence is the only time John records an innumerable number of people entering Heaven.

if Pre-Trib were true, John would record the Great Multitude as the second innumerable number of people in Heaven.

The majority of the great Multitude I believe must be witnessed too,..when the antichrist is not yet indwelt by satan.

And I believe God rides a Harley-Davidson... so what? You have NO Scripture which says the 144,000 act as evangelical Mormons.

I believe that the Ac will be indwelt by satan when he is cast to the earth near the midpoint of Daniels 70th week.

And I believe that God rides a Harley-Davidson again.

I would put the timing of Satan's downcast from Heaven being right after Jesus ascended to Heaven from His Resurrection after meeting Mary in the garden as recorded in Zechariah 3.

[benny balerio]

Concerning the Day of the Lord, as posted on page 6 of this thread on the 12th of May at 9:58am when I show that there is absolutely NO Scriptural reference for benny's repeated insistence that the Day of the Lord is the same as the one 'seven,' benny replies:

I believe that you are wrong Mark.

Well that's great benny, but without any Scriptural reference to back up your assertion, it's just your belief.

I believe God rides a Harley-Davidson.

I don't have any Scripture to prove that, but I'll just keep repeating it. I'll even draw inference from oil, power, and smoke to "show" I am right by the fallacy of argument concerning cause and effect.

So you can believe that ~ the Day of the Lord Begins slightly prior to Daniels 70th week,... and that Daniels 70th week is marked by a 7 year covenant, and that all of Daniels 70th week is the wrath of God ~ but without Scripture to back it up, you have no real basis other than you say so.

First of all,..Daniel 11;36....proves Gods wrath is not 24 hours long

I never said God's Wrath was only 24 hours long.

I said all the events associated with the sixth Seal and our being gathered up AND the Wrath that the Lord will tramp out in the Land of Israel could be accomplished in one Jewish Day.

I never stipulated that all God's Wrath, which does take time, takes place solely on the Day of the Lord.

I said the Day of the Lord begins God's Wrath.

You Quote:
Concerning the Day of the Lord, as posted on page 6 of this thread on the 12th of May at 9:58am when I show that there is absolutely NO Scriptural reference for benny's repeated insistence that the Day of the Lord is the same as the one 'seven,' benny replies:

My Reply:
No Mark,..12th of May at 9:58am does not exist on page 6 as you claim.

You Quote:
So you can believe that ~ the Day of the Lord Begins slightly prior to Daniels 70th week,... and that Daniels 70th week is marked by a 7 year covenant, and that all of Daniels 70th week is the wrath of God ~ but without Scripture to back it up, you have no real basis other than you say so.

My Reply:
Can it be determined beyond a reasonable doubt that Ezekiel and Revelation both offer descriptions of the very same sequence of judgements? If the 70th Week begins after the Magog invasion is destroyed, and the Magog invasion is destroyed as a result of the first trumpet bombardment, then we can conclude that the 70th Week does not even begin until after the first trumpet is blown and it's effects are felt.

Ezekiel may allow for a brief span of time between the global disturbance of 38:20 and the judgements that fall on the invading armies in 38:21. Revelation indicates that there is a brief span of time after the sixth seal when the 144,000 are sealed, then at the seventh seal there is a half hour interlude, after which the first trumpet bombardment begins.

In Revelation and Ezekiel the first event is similar in that Ezekiel refers to it as a "great shaking" in Israel ("great earthquake" in the NIV), and Revelation calls it a "great earthquake." The second event is similar in that they both describe a global disturbance which causes all men to take notice. Ezekiel says that all men will shake at God's presence, while Revelation records that all men ask to be hidden from the face of God. In Revelation men ask for the mountains and rocks to fall on them, while in Ezekiel the mountains and steep places fall down, and every wall falls, perhaps granting man's request. Ezekiel records this as an outpouring of God's wrath, and in Revelation the unbelievers cry out that it is indeed the wrath of God. The third event is similar in that both texts refer to blood, fire and hailstones. Ezekiel records that this plague is "rained down," while Revelation records it is "cast upon" the earth. The Ezekiel plague of fire that includes Magog (Russia), and the Isles (the Mediterranean basin?), could equal the scale of the fire of Revelation that burns up one third of the earth at the first trumpet.


You Quote:
I never said God's Wrath was only 24 hours long.

My Reply:
You quoted "Again Scripturally: the Time of Jacob's Trouble, from Jeremiah, is a Day

You quoted about the Day of the Lord,...stating that it is a day.

You Quote:
Still, you err in calling the Day of the Lord the whole of the one 'seven.'

There is no Scriptural support for equating a day with a prophetic 'week.'

You Quote:
There is one Church and it goes onto the Last Day: the Day of the Lord.

You Quote:
All believers in Christ, who don't take the mark of the beast, will be taken up at the Last Day of the Church Age - the Day of the Lord.

I Quote:
benny balerio wrote:
The Day of the Lord and the Wrath of God begin at the same time.
Mark T stated in his reply:
Ah! Something we agree upon!

I would say that there is plenty of evidence that proves that you claim that the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours long.

But the truth is,..the Day of the Lord covers the Whole of Daniels 70th week.
The wrath of God is not 24 hours long.

The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.

Rev. 15:1, the “bowl judgments” are “the seven last plagues”, after the other plagues. The trumpets are also called plagues in Rev. 9:20. The “seven last plagues” must happen after the other plagues. In 17:1 “And one of the seven angels having the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on the many waters”.
Revelation 15:1
Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God's wrath to completion.

I believe the above proves that the Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long,..but entails a long length of time.

[MarkT]

The earthquake in revelation 6;12 occurs in Ezekiel 38;20 and is not the same event in revelation 16;20 which occurs before armageddon.

No disagreement here.

Also The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red...in revelation 6;12

But in Matthew 24;
Do take notice that this Matthew 24;29 event is prophecied to occur...."Immediately after the distress of those days"
In other words,..after the Great Tribulation has come to an end.

Again take notice in comparison,....that the "DISTRESS"...is still ongoing in revealation 6,..and is awaiting the 7th seal and the trumpet and bowl judgements.

No, the there is one sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord. There is no one monolithic description of this celestial sign which is the "thumbprint" of God to show this Day as being distinct from every day and to have come from "above." Minor differences in its desciption occur as would be expected by different authors.

However, the distinction you are trying to draw here from the Great Tribulation being "over" in the Olivet Discourse and an "ongoing" condition are not explicitiy stated.

The Great Tribulation is only terrible for the Elect. Once the Elect are removed, it is over. I will go further and say that when the Day of the Lord BEGINS with the sun/moon/star event - the wicked will be too busy trying to save their own hides to worry much about the few Elect who are left... and when the Elect are gone, while the two laws will STILL be in effect, it will hardly affect those left - the wicked. They will have already taken the "mark."

Meanwhile, as far as the timing of the gathering of the Great Multitude, it most certainly is DURING the Great Tribulaion so as to be said they were taken out of it. However again, when the Elect are removed, they are removed after the distress of those days have reduced their number to whatever God the Father has planned.

There is no real discrepancy between Matthew and Revelation.

[MarkT]

White linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people - Rev 19:8. They will be given life as their victor's crown - Rev 2:10.

Again the Bride does not need to wash their robes fore the bride(Believer in Christ Jesus) was saved the moment they first believed in Christ Jesus in their heart,..these were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto the Day of their redemption,...in other words...Saved by grace.

No, we wash our clothes clean in the blood of the Lamb.

Faith is a continuing condition calling for daily renewal; when we sin, we ask for forgiveness.
Are you saying you never sin?

[MarkT]

Ezekiel 38:18-20 is not the start of the Day of the Lord, but what awaits the King of the North after Jesus comes on the Day of the Lord.

My Reply:
...

Benny gives no Scriptural support for his assertion that Ezekiel 38 is the start of the Day of the Lord, or that it comes before the one 'seven' commences.

Of Course I give scriptural support,..other I would not make any such claim.

Ezekiel 38;18 states the following:
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

That is laughable.

It does not state that v.18 is the start of the Day of the Lord.

Verse 18 does not state that it comes before the one 'seven.'

You repeat the same flawed, illogical reasons for your eschatology.

This is a fallacy in argument:
Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the point of disgust; i.e., by repetition): This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by saying it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments.

[benny balerio]

I think the first four Seals have already been opened and we are experiencing the results of those Spirits at work in the world to bring us to a fever-pitch in which apostasy is nearly the norm, and the wicked are all clamoring for a leader to "fix" things for them.

The first four seals have not yet been opened.
Because the wrath of God (Day of the Lord) is yet future.

None of the Seals unleash Biblical Wrath.

The Wrath of God does not go forth until the Scroll can be opened.

The Lord is still sitting on the Throne of Grace,..and has not yet taken the seals from the Father and stood on His feet to judge the world.

More assertions without any Scriptural support for your "opinion."

Aposasy has been active since the beginning of the world,..and is not some special one time event pertaining to the Bride.

Nonsense. The Church of Laodicea may very well describe the end-time Church, and as such, definitely does become apostate. That is even how scholars and commentators refer to her.

You Quote:
None of the Seals unleash Biblical Wrath.

The Wrath of God does not go forth until the Scroll can be opened.

My Reply:
It seems that you contradict your own statement,....it's like the two sentences you quote clash with each other.

But regardless,..revelation 6;17 is clear that the world is aware that the wrath of God has begun in the 6th seal.

You Quote:
Nonsense. The Church of Laodicea may very well describe the end-time Church, and as such, definitely does become apostate. That is even how scholars and commentators refer to her.

My Reply:
The hot are the truly saved believers. The cold are those who are not believers and do not claim to be believers. The lukewarm are those who do claim to believe in Jesus, but are not truly regenerate believers.

[MarkT]

Oh!...but you seem to believe that the Lords wrath is only a 24 hour event,..but that is not true.

The Day of the Lord Rapture happens at night.

"In the morning - they are gone!" Isaiah says. "Bodies flung everywhere!" Amos says. Paul says we who are still alive and are left (after the Great Tribulation) will "exchange" (a valid reading of the Greek allasso) our mortal bodies for immortal ones.

The next day by our reckoning, but still one Hebrew day, OT prophecy records certain events which are said to take place on the Day of the Lord. Joel 2 is one. There is also a battle south of Jerusalem in Joel chapter 3.

I would also include Ezekiel 9 as an event which happens on the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

These Wrath events associated with the Day of the Lord, which will fill the land with blood, can all happen in one day.

I say the Day of the Lord can be a single Day.

I do not say that all of God's Wrath concludes in a single day.

I say the Day of the Lord begins God's Wrath.

I say the Day of the Lord is coincidental with the first Trumpet.

I say the Day of the Lord will see "mountains smoke." I think the caldera at Yellowstone will blow. This will cripple the USA. I think other volcanoes will blow as well.

All in all, a third of the earth will be burned up from the events which happen on the Day of the Lord.

I think that the earth and its inhabitants will be reeling like a drunk from these calamities (desolations) for a long time before God need have the second Trumpet sound.

[MarkT]

No my friend,..the Wrath of God begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20
This event begins slightly prior to Daniels beginning 70th week.
And the whole of Daniels 70th week is consists of the Wrath of God.

NOT PROVED - at all!

We have returned to that fallacy of argument:
Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the point of disgust; i.e., by repetition): This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by saying it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments.

[MarkT]

The wrath of God is not 24 hours long.

I never said it was.

[MarkT]

...One moment you claim that the rapture occurs after the A. O.D. event,..

Yes, it does.

and then you change up and say that the rapture occurs at the end of the great tribulation.

Yes it does that too, and I don't "change up" when I say that.

So you are saying that there will be two raptures.

No, I am NOT saying that at all.

In fact, the common criticism of Pre-Trib eschatology is that is has a "secret" Rapture before the one 'seven,' and then another after the midpoint in accordance with the Olivet Discourse for its "Tribulation Saints."

There is only ONE parousia of the Lord - on the Day of the Lord.
There is only ONE Rapture of the Elect who are still alive and are left upon the earth after the Great Tribulation.

No sir,..there is only one and it will occur prior to the wrath of God in a pre-trib setting.

You have absolutely NO Scriptural suport for the underlined portion of your quote - absolutely none!

[MarkT]

When the King of the North attacks Israel and surrounds the Temple and then erects the midpoint abomination - then one who is like God will arise - Daniel 12:1.

You seem to imply that the antichrist is the king of the north....is this correct?

Anti-Christ, man of lawlessness (perdition), little horn, King of the North, beast of a man: these are all terms the Bible uses for the ruler who will come who will proclaim himself god.

Also,...you seem to imply that the antichrist is leading the ezekiel 38 attack against Israel??....is this correct?

Leading is not what the Bible says, but as a leading question, leading takes on many aspects.

Certainly, the King of the North is behind the ordering of the Gog/Magog invasion as Ezekiel terms it. It does involve the feet of the bear, the second end-time nation which comes under the control of the fourth terrible beast, or which, the little horn strives to rule, and he "hamstrings" three ruling ministers to take it over - so to speak.

In Daniel, he pitches his "royal" (the only Persian word in the Bible) tent at the Holy Mountain, so whether he is leading the charge or not, even though he is the leader behind the war, by the time the battle is decided, and when it is safe, he will make his entrance on the stage: after all, he has to be present in the Temple when the false prophet - who has power in Israel to set up the talking image of the beast of a man in the Temple (2Th 2:4), the abomination(s) of Dan 9:27 - presents him with his "war trophy."

So tell us Mark,.....are you claiming that the anti-christ will sit back for 7 months while Israel buries the dead of Gog and Magog,..and then afterward,...come into the temple and commit the A.O.D.?

This is ridiculous!

Why do you ask if I am claiming something I never even mentioned?

I know when I time the burial of the bones - which by the way, is in accordance with USAF TACM 3-1 for nuclear/biological battlefield cleanup, and the Bible's description of "continually employed" is akin to "professional."

When do you think Ezekiel 39:12-16 happens since you seem to have a problem with its timing?

How is this possible knowing that the moment the A.O.D. comes to pass,...that the Lord Jesus has instructed the Jews to flee into the wilderness.

Because of your eschatology, you are bewildered, of course.

The midpoint fleeing is done at the invasion of Israel from Ezekiel 38:3-14 summed up in v.38.

It is the same as Luke 21:20.

The battlefield cleanup of Ezekiel 39 happens after the one 'seven,' after the Wrath of God has completely obliterated the combined armies of the world at Armageddon, which the anti-christ commands in his Pyrrhic gesture to stand in front of God in defiance having gained the whole world in war.

[MarkT]

Scripture please!

• Heb 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
• Heb 4:6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience...

In the verse of John 3;16......I did not read the word,..."UNLESS"
The only condition to eternal salvation is to Believe in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now tell us Mark,..where does it say..."UNLESS"?.......It's not there!

Ah, benny balerio! It's IN the Greek! The Greek present tense implies an ongoing condition - not a one time for all!

If you discontinue to believe - you are NOT saved. Once saved/always saved? That's not in the Bible either.

[MarkT]

That is not a Scriptural reference which says the one standing in the midst IS the Holy Spirit.

The only reason you insist upon making the "one" the Holy Spirit is so you can have something to point to in order to say that we are 'out of here' before the man of lawlessness is revealed (at the midpoint abomination). However, Jesus will not come, and we will not be gathered up UNTIL that happens! That's what Paul wrote!

Departure and the Restrainer
Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:

I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7-8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.[11]

Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.[12]

Conclusion

The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!
http://bibleone.net/print_tbs118.html

Quoting Pre-Trib website scholars for reaffirmation of what you attest is NOT supplying Scriptural reference!

This is a actually another fallacy in argument:
Argumentum ad numerum (argument or appeal to numbers): This fallacy is the attempt to prove something by showing how many people think that it's true. But no matter how many people believe something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or right.

[MarkT]

Oh really? Please name all the Spirits you eliminated that can't stand in the midst before the anti-Christ.

...

I thought so, you can't name any Spirit you eliminated in your 'process of elimation.' It was no process at all. You just named the "one" the Holy Spirit in your hope to escape hardship.

Mark,..who is that restrains lawlessness on a global scale,..the only one that has that power is the Holy Spirit.
There is no other.

Red Herring: the Bible does NOT say the "one" restrains lawlessness on a global scale!

You have not provided ANY Scriptural reference for your attestment.

You have not provided ANY Spirit you eliminated in the process of elimination you said you embarked upon.

Not only are you employing the fallacy in argument of the Red Herring, you are also engaging in the fallacy of arguing adnauseum - again!

[MarkT]

That is a fallacy in argument:

Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition): This is the familiar argument that some policy, behavior, or practice is right or acceptable because "it's always been done that way."

Argumentum ad numerum (argument or appeal to numbers): This fallacy is the attempt to prove something by showing how many people think that it's true. But no matter how many people believe something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or right.

Argumentum ad populum (argument or appeal to the public): This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by showing that the public agrees with you.

Looks to me that you are arguing to avoid a question.
But my brothers and sisters here can see through your response.

I have not avoided any question!

I am pointing out all the fallacies in arguments you are making.

You cannot provide Scripture for what you assert.

I think the reader can see what is going on here.

[MarkT]

You may not realize it,..but you are placing your theory in quicksand.
You see the Word of God states that we will reign with the Lord,...so in essence,..you are claiming that there is a rapture after the great Tribulation and then you and claiming that the Bride will remain in heaven for a thousand years.
No Mark,........When the Lord returns,......He will be bringing the Bride with Him prior to armageddon.
Jude 1;14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Revelation 19:14
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Jesus does not need billions of believers to take on hundreds of millions of soldiers.

Jesus, being Lord, and a real man, would not take His Bride to war.

1Th 3:13 describes an observer-true point of view of a believer who survives the Great Tribulation, and being one of the few who are still alive and are left on the earth, seeing Jesus come with all those He has resurrected out of Paradise, a realm of Heaven, the first Heaven as I term it.

Jude 14 is completely satisfied by the 144,000. It does not say an innumerable number...

Likewise, Revelation's army is satisfied by the 144,000 as well, while we are the source for the "roar of a great multitude" cheering on our hero: Jesus!

[MarkT]

Now about the "Fulness of the Gentiles"
The timing of the rapture is not about a Day or an Hour.
But instead,..is about a man,...woman or ..Child,.that only God the Father knows who that last person will be, who will ask the Lord Jesus into their heart as Lord and Savior.
When this comes to pass,..the "Fulness of the Gentiles" will be complete and then the rapture will occur.
Today,..there is no difference between Jew and Gentile,...during the church age.
and once the rapture occurs,...the jew will no longer be partially blind and many will come to the Lord Jesus.

There is most definitely a difference between Jew and Gentile today. I've been to a Synagogue; they don't worship Jesus there!

I still say the fullness of the Gentiles occurs with the First Resurrection. What you present to me is just a mish-mash of Scripture mixed with benny balerio.

P.S. Fullness has two "l's."

[MarkT]

The Jews who were not qualified to be among the Elect because of their disbelief in Jesus, yet because of their faith in God were brought into the Millennium to realize the Servant Messiah they had rejected is the same Messiah King they had hoped for, will be made jealous by our elevation and will hope to join us as Sheep at the end of the Millennium based on their obedience to Jesus who rules the Earth with an iron scepter.

You greatly are in error:
The Lord says:
Romans 11;26And so all Israel will be saved, ALSO: Zechariah 12:10.

Romans 11:25 doesn't invalidate what I said! In fact, I count on it being accomplished in the Millennium!

You, from what I gather, have us on the earth during the Millennium? Is that correct? Some people do; that's why I ask. I don't agree with them; that's not what the last few chapters of Ezekiel dictate.

Zechariah 12:10 (again a colon, not a semi-colon should separate chapter and verse) is a reference to the beginning of the Millennium, perhaps after the Sukkot encampment on Mount Zion Isaiah describes.

So what we have here is a difference of eschatology for what happens after the one 'seven.' Indeed, it is a question Pastors don't like to address (they don't like to address the end-times - period!): what is the reason for the Sabbath Millennium.

I think it is so that ALL of Israel will be saved, and I say "all" as the Hebrew would define kol, their word for "all" - which is all that is applicable.

[benny balerio]

Oh!...but you seem to believe that the Lords wrath is only a 24 hour event,..but that is not true.

The Day of the Lord Rapture happens at night.

"In the morning - they are gone!" Isaiah says. "Bodies flung everywhere!" Amos says. Paul says we who are still alive and are left (after the Great Tribulation) will "exchange" (a valid reading of the Greek allasso) our mortal bodies for immortal ones.

The next day by our reckoning, but still one Hebrew day, OT prophecy records certain events which are said to take place on the Day of the Lord. Joel 2 is one. There is also a battle south of Jerusalem in Joel chapter 3.

I would also include Ezekiel 9 as an event which happens on the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

These Wrath events associated with the Day of the Lord, which will fill the land with blood, can all happen in one day.

I say the Day of the Lord can be a single Day.

I do not say that all of God's Wrath concludes in a single day.

I say the Day of the Lord begins God's Wrath.

I say the Day of the Lord is coincidental with the first Trumpet.

I say the Day of the Lord will see "mountains smoke." I think the caldera at Yellowstone will blow. This will cripple the USA. I think other volcanoes will blow as well.

All in all, a third of the earth will be burned up from the events which happen on the Day of the Lord.

I think that the earth and its inhabitants will be reeling like a drunk from these calamities (desolations) for a long time before God need have the second Trumpet sound.

I am glad that you agree that all of Daniels 70th week is the Day of the Lord and that Gods wrath is the same as the Day of the Lord.

[benny balerio]

All these prophecies are directed at unrepentant Israel by the way. It is Israel who disobeys the Lord by their unbelief in Jesus. They will pay a terrible price for that disobedience on the Day of the Lord which begins the time of Jacob's Trouble. However, a third of Israel will be saved out of the time of Jacob's trouble... and rescue that starts when those in Judea flee at the midpoint of the one 'seven.' The Day of the Lord follows some time afterward by the span of the "shortened" Great Tribulation.

In the "Time of Jacobs Trouble",.. why do you believe that the Bride enters it?

I never said the Church bears the Wrath of God.

I said the Church is removed on the Day of the Lord, as established by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and backed up by the Revelaiton of the sixth Seal's events about the Day of the Lord which results in the Great Multitude arriving in the barn of Heaven out of the Great Tribulation - because that is the timing for the Rapture.

So I find it curious that you would believe I believe what you wrote after so many pages.

It's as though you are segregating the Jews,...after all,..arn't there unrepentant gentiles on the earth too?

I don't separate the Jews: God does.

Two-thirds of the Jews will perish. 99% of the wicked (unrepentant Gentiles) will perish. As my New York friends would say: "You got a problem wit dat?"

Prophecy says that God will shepherd a Remnant through the desolations of the one 'seven' (Rev 12:6 and 14; Rev 16:15; Isa 4:2-6; 42:16 and Isa 10:20-21).

It seems that you have a dilemma.
First you claim that the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours long and begins when the Lord returns after Daniels 70th week.
And then you state "the Day of the Lord which begins the time of Jacob's Trouble"

No, I don't have a dilemma.
I did not claim the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours long.
...I said all the events could be accomplished in one Hebrew day.
I did not claim the Lord's parousia happens after the one 'seven.' (It is NOT Daniel's 70th week.)

Yes, the time of Jacob's Trouble starts on the Day of the Lord after the Elect is delivered to the barn of Heaven.

However, a third of Israel will be saved out of the time of Jacob's trouble... and rescue that starts when those in Judea flee at the midpoint of the one 'seven.' The Day of the Lord follows some time afterward by the span of the "shortened" Great Tribulation.

Hmmmm.......It is obvious to me that you state that the Day of the Lord begins at midpoint of Daniels 70th week.

I JUST wrote that the Day of the Lord follows some time afterward (of the midpoint of the one 'seven') by the span of the "shortened" Great Tribulation.

If it is obvious to you what you wrote - then it is obvious to me you don't understand what I wrote.

I believe that you are confused in your belief.

And I believe God rides a Harley-Davidson. I have a poster to prove it...

You do not show a harmonic flow of scriptures.

Actually, I already have: in the Pre-Wrath section. Sorry, no debate allowed there.

Now I am beginning to understand why you are evasive in some of the questions that I have placed on you.
It has been very difficult to pin down your intended explainations of your belief.
I am sure that many of the readers here would agree.
I think that you should carefully think it through before you post your statements,...I am just giving you some brotherly advice.

I have not been evasive at all.
You have shown an inability to grasp other people's ideas that differ from your own.
It doesn't matter how many agree with whom at this point.
I will consider the veracity of your brotherly advice with all the weight of Scripture on your side of your argument.

You Quote:
I said[/u] the Church is removed on the Day of the Lord, as established by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and backed up by the Revelaiton of the sixth Seal's events about the Day of the Lord which results in the Great Multitude arriving in the barn of Heaven out of the Great Tribulation - because that is the timing for the Rapture.


My Reply:
No Mark,...The Bride is removed prior to the Day of the Lord.
Have you not read the book of Amos?
Amos 5;18Woe to you who long

for the day of the Lord!

Why do you long for the day of the Lord?

That day will be darkness, not light.

19It will be as though a man fled from a lion

only to meet a bear,

as though he entered his house

and rested his hand on the wall

only to have a snake bite him.

20Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light—

pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

Also it is obvious that a rapture occurs "before" any of the seals have been opened.

You Quote:
No, I don't have a dilemma.
I did not claim the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours long.
...I said all the events could be accomplished in one Hebrew day.

My Reply:
Of course you claimed that the Day of the Lord is 24 hours long.
You insinuate this many times.

My Reply:
You quoted "Again Scripturally: the Time of Jacob's Trouble, from Jeremiah, is a Day

You quoted about the Day of the Lord,...stating that it is a day.

You Quote:
Still, you err in calling the Day of the Lord the whole of the one 'seven.'

There is no Scriptural support for equating a day with a prophetic 'week.'

You Quote:
There is one Church and it goes onto the Last Day: the Day of the Lord.

You Quote:
All believers in Christ, who don't take the mark of the beast, will be taken up at the Last Day of the Church Age - the Day of the Lord.

I Quote:
benny balerio wrote:
The Day of the Lord and the Wrath of God begin at the same time.
Mark T stated in his reply:
Ah! Something we agree upon!

I would say that there is plenty of evidence that proves that you claim that the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours long.

But the truth is,..the Day of the Lord covers the Whole of Daniels 70th week.
The wrath of God is not 24 hours long.

You Quote:
I did not claim the Lord's parousia happens after the one 'seven.

My Reply:
Of course you made that claim,..I'll prove it.
You Quote:
The Church Age ends on the "Last Day" which is synonymous with the Day of the Lord, or as Paul calls it properly: the Day of Christ.

You Quote:
when Jesus arrives there on the Day of the Lord (post-Rapture

It seems to me that you are very wishy washy in correctly dividing the Word of God.


You Quote:
Yes, the time of Jacob's Trouble starts on the Day of the Lord after the Elect is delivered to the barn of Heaven

My Reply:
Your above quote reveals that you believe that a rapture occurs first,..and then afterward,..Daniels 70th week begins.
Well how about that!...the man has beginning to learn something,.....it's OK,..your not the first to come over into the pre-trib belief.


You Quote:
I JUST wrote that the Day of the Lord follows some time afterward (of the midpoint of the one 'seven') by the span of the "shortened" Great Tribulation.


My Reply:
No Mark,..you are again contradicting your own self.
You earlier made the following claim:


You Quote:
To wit: the Great Multitude is gathered out of the Great Tribulation before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath sounds.

My Reply:
Mark,..we know that the first trumpet begins in the first half of Daniels 70th week.
I think what you do not realize is that revelation 7 A seal judgement is a future event(Great Multitude)
It's like placing the seasoning to a pot of beans before you turn on the fire.

You Quote:
You have shown an inability to grasp other people's ideas that differ from your own.
It doesn't matter how many agree with whom at this point.


My Reply:
I think that you just do not know how to express your belief.

[benny balerio]

Also Joel 2;16 says:
Let the bridegroom leave his room

and the bride her chamber.

So it is at the time just moments before this invasion of Israel in the Ezekial 38 battle when the Rapture of the Bride would occur.

A couple of errors here.

First, Joel 2:16 is not a veiled refence to the parousia of Christ coming for the Elect as it is in the Songs of Solomon which does include a figurative appearance of the Lord at the "latter rains" in SS 5:2-6.

Joel 2:16 lists all those who are called to the assembly in v. 15 to include those who normally would not be disturbed at all - the groom and the bride in their chamber.

To say that the reference to the bride here is the Church begs the question then why the groom is called likewise. Both are being called. In the Rapture, Jesus gathers the Elect. He is not called; Jesus calls with the Trumpet of God.

Secondly, the battle of Joel 2 is not the same as the Gog/Magog war of Ezekiel 38.

In Joel, Israel is being overcome by God's Army: it is the time of Jacob's Trouble.
In Ezekiel 38, first the North invades Israel, and then God fights them.

They are not the same.

I disagree,..I see this as a shadow type of the Lord (Groom) gathering the Bride and taking her into the Bridel chamber as it is in the tradition of the ancient Jewish wedding.
I see nothing to suggest that the Lord was called as you claim.

[benny balerio]

No my friend,..the Wrath of God begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20
This event begins slightly prior to Daniels beginning 70th week.
And the whole of Daniels 70th week is consists of the Wrath of God.

NOT PROVED - at all!

We have returned to that fallacy of argument:
Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the point of disgust; i.e., by repetition): This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by saying it again and again. But no matter how many times you repeat something, it will not become any more or less true than it was in the first place. Of course, it is not a fallacy to state the truth again and again; what is fallacious is to expect the repetition alone to substitute for real arguments.

My Reply:
No Mark,..The Ezekiel 38;18-20 speaks for itself.....it explicitly reveals Gods Wrath.
This event cannot be placed in Daniels 70th week without clashing against scriptures.

[benny balerio]

When you read Ezekial 38;18-20
This is when the Day of the Lord begins, that continues throughout all of Daniels 70th week the Time of Jacobs trouble.

Ezekiel 38:18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground.

While I can agree that v. 19-20 describe events which occur on the Day of the Lord -

- these verses do not describe the beginning of the Day of the Lord!

We all know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the air just prior to the beginning Day of The Lord.

No, we all don't know that.

We know from the Bible that Jesus gathers the Elect AFTER the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse.

We know from the Bible that Paul says we are gathered up on the Day of Christ which he equates to the Day of the Lord.

We know from the Bible that first comes the sun/moon/star event of the Day of the Lord and then the Great Multitude show up in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.

There is no Bible verse which says the Elect are gathered before the Day of the Lord.

You Quote:
We know from the Bible that Jesus gathers the Elect AFTER the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse.

My Reply:

In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
Because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew).

It is obvious that Matthew 24;29-31 is referring to the Jews,..not the Bride.

You continue to say that the Lord will shorten the Great Tribulation.
Actually it will last 42 months,..and not a day less.

You Quote:
No, we all don't know that.


My Reply:
Of course we know this,..it is revealed in 1 Thessalonians 1;10

[benny balerio]

Now about the "Fulness of the Gentiles"
The timing of the rapture is not about a Day or an Hour.
But instead,..is about a man,...woman or ..Child,.that only God the Father knows who that last person will be, who will ask the Lord Jesus into their heart as Lord and Savior.
When this comes to pass,..the "Fulness of the Gentiles" will be complete and then the rapture will occur.
Today,..there is no difference between Jew and Gentile,...during the church age.
and once the rapture occurs,...the jew will no longer be partially blind and many will come to the Lord Jesus.

There is most definitely a difference between Jew and Gentile today. I've been to a Synagogue; they don't worship Jesus there!

I still say the fullness of the Gentiles occurs with the First Resurrection. What you present to me is just a mish-mash of Scripture mixed with benny balerio.

P.S. Fullness has two "l's."

You Quote:
There is most definitely a difference between Jew and Gentile today. I've been to a Synagogue; they don't worship Jesus there!

My Reply:
Maybe you did not understand what I have intended.
The word of God states that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile those who are in Christ Jesus.

You Quote:
I still say the fullness of the Gentiles occurs with the First Resurrection. What you present to me is just a mish-mash of Scripture mixed with benny balerio.

My Reply:
Ezekiel’s battle results in both a Jewish nation re-awakened to the presence of God in their national life and an utterly defeated Moslem attack force in no position to resist. The perfect conditions will finally exist to start building. For these reasons, Ezekiel’s battle has to take place on the threshold of Daniel’s 70th week. Now why does the Rapture of the Church have to precede Ezekiel’s battle?

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.(Romans 11:25)

Reborn first in unbelief (Ezek. 37:8) the Bible tells us Israel will remain partially estranged from God until the gentile Church reaches its full complement (predetermined number) and arrives at its destination. (The Greek word translated “fullness” in Romans 11:25 was a nautical term often used to describe the full complement of crew and cargo necessary to accomplish a ship’s mission. The ship couldn’t sail till those requirements were met. The one translated “come in” means to arrive at a designated place.)

Then the veil will be pulled back as God reveals Himself to them again. As we saw above, He will use Ezekiel’s battle to begin this by renewing the Old Covenant with them, later transitioning Israel from the Old Covenant to the New toward the end of the Great Tribulation (Zech 12:10). Remember, if they didn’t go back to the Old covenant first, they wouldn’t need a Temple. He’s picking them up where they left off.

After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’ (Acts 15:13-18)

It was about 20 years after the cross. The controversy of the day was whether Gentiles had to become Jews before they could become Christians. And if not, what would become of Israel? In effect, the Lord’s brother James explained to the Apostles and others present at the Council of Jerusalem that Israel was being temporarily set aside while God focused on the Church. After He had taken this “people for His name” (Christians) from among the Gentiles he would return and rebuild His Temple. The Greek words translated taken mean to carry something away or remove it from its place, so the passage implies that He would take the Church somewhere and then come back to rebuild the Temple, restore Israel, and give what’s left of mankind one final chance to seek Him.

These three Bible prophecies make it clear that as the End of the Age approaches, God will begin preparing Israel to be His once more. But He won’t be exclusively focused on them until He has finished building the Church and has taken us to our appointed place. And where is that? In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:2-3) (He didn’t promise to come back to be with us here where we are, but to take us there, where He is.) After that He would see to Israel’s reawakening and the construction of their Temple.

Throughout Scripture, the Lord seems to be involved with either Israel or the Church, but never both at the same time. James bears this out in his pronouncement regarding the Church in Acts 15. All the leaders of the early church now knew that once God had accomplished His goals with the church, He would turn again to Israel, and that would signal the end of the Church Age.

There are two critical points to remember here. The first is that the Church didn’t end the Age of Law, but only interrupted it 7 years short of its scheduled completion. Those seven years, called the 70th Week of Daniel, have to be fulfilled to complete the Old Covenant. And the second is that the Old and New covenants, as practiced in Israel and the Church, are theologically incompatible, and therefore the two can only be on Earth at the same time while Israel is out of covenant. For Israel to return to the Lord, the Church has to be gone.

For this reason, the rebirth of Israel in 1948 and the reunification of Jerusalem in 1967 are seen as the most important signs of all that the End of the Age is upon us.

Also, there are two events we haven’t put into the sequence yet, and that’s because they aren’t easy to locate there. These are the battles of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17. When Israel wins these two battles all their next door enemies will be defeated and they’ll enter into a brief period of peace that sets the stage for Ezekiel’s Battle (Ezekiel 38:11). They’re called battles instead of wars which means they’ll be of short duration and can happen within a fairly short span of time. They can come either before or after the Rapture but do have to happen before the Battle of Ezekiel 38 takes place.

The Sequence of Major Events is only the first of “Seven Things You Have To Know To Understand End Times Prophecy.” Next time we’ll cover The Destiny of the Three Components of Humanity, The Purpose and Length of the Great Tribulation, and The Purpose of the Rapture. 07-09-11
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ke ... ck181.html

[benny balerio]

The Jews who were not qualified to be among the Elect because of their disbelief in Jesus, yet because of their faith in God were brought into the Millennium to realize the Servant Messiah they had rejected is the same Messiah King they had hoped for, will be made jealous by our elevation and will hope to join us as Sheep at the end of the Millennium based on their obedience to Jesus who rules the Earth with an iron scepter.

You greatly are in error:
The Lord says:
Romans 11;26And so all Israel will be saved, ALSO: Zechariah 12:10.

Romans 11:25 doesn't invalidate what I said! In fact, I count on it being accomplished in the Millennium!

You, from what I gather, have us on the earth during the Millennium? Is that correct? Some people do; that's why I ask. I don't agree with them; that's not what the last few chapters of Ezekiel dictate.

Zechariah 12:10 (again a colon, not a semi-colon should separate chapter and verse) is a reference to the beginning of the Millennium, perhaps after the Sukkot encampment on Mount Zion Isaiah describes.

So what we have here is a difference of eschatology for what happens after the one 'seven.' Indeed, it is a question Pastors don't like to address (they don't like to address the end-times - period!): what is the reason for the Sabbath Millennium.

I think it is so that ALL of Israel will be saved, and I say "all" as the Hebrew would define kol, their word for "all" - which is all that is applicable.

You Quote:

Romans 11:25 doesn't invalidate what I said! In fact, I count on it being accomplished in the Millennium!

You, from what I gather, have us on the earth during the Millennium? Is that correct? Some people do; that's why I ask. I don't agree with them; that's not what the last few chapters of Ezekiel dictate.

My Reply:
No Mark,...Israel and gentiles will repopulate in the millennium.
The Lord will sit on the throne of David on earth and the Bride will reign with the Lord on the earth.

You are going to need to produce some scriptures so that I may correct your interpretations.

[benny balerio]

Oh really? Please name all the Spirits you eliminated that can't stand in the midst before the anti-Christ.

...

I thought so, you can't name any Spirit you eliminated in your 'process of elimation.' It was no process at all. You just named the "one" the Holy Spirit in your hope to escape hardship.

Mark,..who is that restrains lawlessness on a global scale,..the only one that has that power is the Holy Spirit.
There is no other.

Red Herring: the Bible does NOT say the "one" restrains lawlessness on a global scale!

You have not provided ANY Scriptural reference for your attestment.

You have not provided ANY Spirit you eliminated in the process of elimination you said you embarked upon.

Not only are you employing the fallacy in argument of the Red Herring, you are also engaging in the fallacy of arguing adnauseum - again!

Of course I provided scripture,..you just did not copy and paste the scripture that I provided that reveals that lawlessness is on a global scale.