contemplative prayer

[Resurrection Torchlight]

As many of you know my husband and I went through a very difficult experience in our former home church which caused us to leave. I believe that at the center of it was the Pastor. Every now and then I listen to his sermons available online, just to see where he is headed, I knew at some point he would dabble in some of the emergent church teachings, he is the kind of guy who desires spiritual "experience". So I listened to a recent message and lo and behold he spoke on contemplative prayer:

http://www.millgrovebiblechurch.org/ser ... 2-5-20.mp3
"The Spiritual Disciplines: Keys to Growth"
"Meditation: From Detachment to Attachment"

I just have to wonder what people in the pews think when they hear something like this?

I sent this link in response to a few people I am still in touch with there.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue111.htm

The Pastor quotes this Donald Whitney and is using his material on Spiritual Disciplines as the basis for his sermons, he uses other men's works as Sermon material almost exclusively. His lack of scriptural understanding and discernment show. Sadly I know how folks there will respond----by doing nothing.

They have the mentality that as long as they can get out of church what they want and no one rocks their boat, they will keep sailing along. Even if they feel it's wrong, they won't say or do anything because it will create conflict, which in turn will make waves, potentially upsetting their boat. So they just sail along... I have to wonder where they will end up at?

Anyone else see this kind of thing in their church??

RT

[drdos]

Same type of stuff is being preached at my old church JFC. They preach on Self help topics and how to be the best and most prosperous you can be. We finally left a couple years ago.

[ToledoDebbie]

RT,

I can relate to what you are going through. I have felt the urging of the Spirit to leave several Churches over the past 5 years, for similar reasons. The first Church I left, my family and I have attended since I was a child and that was incredibly painful.

In my opinion there is an epidemic that is spreading like wildfire, throughout the Christian and Evangelical Church and is leading the people of God away from the truth.

I am not alone. I have many friends and family that are basically "unchurched" because we have not been able to find a church that is biblically based and teaches the word of God with love, faith and honesty. Every church I have attended so far this year, has been so far off, I actually wasn't sure when I left if they were even Christians??? When I walked out, it felt like I had just attended the meeting of a big social club of do-gooder's. God and Jesus were rarely, if ever mentioned and all they wanted to discuss and talk about were their great "works". The psychological **** that these ministers were passing off as "sermons" was pathetic.

I don't know if my area is especially bad, compared to other parts of the country. Maybe this is just a matter of "follow the leader" with everyone wanting to do what the other churches are doing? I really don't know, but, I do get very sad when I think about what is happening. I still go out each Sunday to a new Church, with high hopes that one day I will find my home.

Debbie

[Abiding in His Word]

Same type of stuff is being preached at my old church JFC. They preach on Self help topics and how to be the best and most prosperous you can be. We finally left a couple years ago.

Reminds me of something I read recently:

Use scripture to accessorize your message

New Paradigm leaders face a weekly challenge: how to preach an engaging message without letting old memes, like scripture-reading, detract from the relevant impression.

Churchy people expect dry, old passages from the Bible to inform the sermon. But the unchurched, who we must put above all else, are turned off by chapters, verses and anything that sounds like you are telling them what to do.
Still, the Bible does sound authoritative and can lend credibility to your message. So you do have to use it from time to time. The challenge, then, is to put the cart of relevance before the horse of scripture. It is not that difficult to do.

First, you must preach to the “felt” needs of your congregation, or rather, of your unchurched and unchurchy congregation. These needs can be as varied as child discipline tips, menu suggestions or budgeting help – the meaty issues of today’s upwardly-mobile couples.

Once you have identified a need, you can come up with engaging and humorous examples to illustrate your solutions and advice. Every once in a while, you can toss in a scripture to lend authority to your pronouncements on the “felt” need of the week.

Scripture is great as occasional seasoning. Sprinkle a little here and there for effect. Not too many passages, of course -- just one or two. The main thing is to be so radically different from the old churchy ways that your service won’t be recognized as “church.” That means you need to limit scripture.

Remember, scripture is window dressing, accessorizing. It’s a seasoning, not the main course. It helps accentuate the more important points that YOU want to bring out.

[ToledoDebbie]

Abiding,

Wow! I don't know where that article came from. It is horrible advice - when did making everyone happy take precedent over understanding who God is and his plan for eternal salvation through Christ?

If that is the kind of advice our ministers are receiving and heeding, it is no wonder things have gotten so bad.

Debbie

[Abiding in His Word]

ToledoDebbie,

It was a "tongue-in-cheek" piece that describes what shallow/unscriptural sermons the author is seeing in churches. Not meant to be advice at all.

[ToledoDebbie]

That makes me feel a little better about the writer, but, not about the underlying problem that he was addressing! LOL

[Abiding in His Word]

Every now and then I listen to his sermons available online, just to see where he is headed, I knew at some point he would dabble in some of the emergent church teachings, he is the kind of guy who desires spiritual "experience". So I listened to a recent message and lo and behold he spoke on contemplative prayer:

Resurrection Torchlight,

I've listened to the 1/2 way mark and will finish the rest, but wanted to note a couple of my thoughts about what I've heard so far.

1) This man appears to be trying to convince himself (and others) of the alleged scriptural support for what he has called "Christian" meditation. He has tried in a half-hearted way to differentiate Christian meditation from "other" kinds but didn't do it convincingly imo as both seem to require emptying one's mind.

2) The purpose of Christian meditation in this part of his sermon is to "hear the voice of the living God." He prefaces his teaching by asking how it would be if we had a "direct line of communication" to God. Well.....he's kinda stating the obvious. Of course we do. It's what we do with that line of communication that matters and he seems to be trying to persuade his listeners that that line that enables us to hear the "voice of the living God" is achieved by meditation.

3) So far, his sermon is a perfect example of using scripture to accessorize a message as I posted above. In an effort to support his teaching on meditation, he has used scripture that uses the word, but does not endorse emptying one's mind in order to hear the voice of God. The differences as he presents them are subtle, but in realty are glaring. Those who speak of meditating in scripture are meditating on the law, God's words, or specific principles. They are not sitting around emptying their mind or secluding themselves to listen for the voice of God.

4) His scriptural support for the fact that we should be able to hear from God directly is Acts 13:2 where the Holy Spirit said to "separate Barnabas and Saul to Me for the work to which I have called them." Yes, they were worshipping and fasting, the Holy Spirit spoke to them. But they were actively going about those things; not passively sitting and trying to hear the voice. We go about our daily activities and in the process, we read God's Word. Sometimes we are struck by a certain passage we might not have seen before, or not seen in quite the same way. We stop and think about that. You could call that meditation, but it's not "empty" meditation. It's meditation on the Bible or as David and Joshua said, they meditate on the law day and night so they will be careful to follow all that is written in it.

Conclusion so far:

It goes without saying that believers have a direct line of communication to God. There are times we ask, thank, praise, etc. and there are times we ask for direction for a specific reason. Sometimes we hear an answer so clearly that it seems like its almost audible. Other times we receive the answer through other avenues or persons. Sometimes we don't get an answer directly and we move ahead based on our own good judgment and common sense. I've heard it said that we can be certain beyond a doubt that it was God speaking to us when what we hear is too smart for it to have come from our own imagination.

What I don't see as scriptural is that we set aside a time without distraction, empty our minds, and wait to hear the voice of the living God for no reason other than to hear from Him at our bidding.

Hope that's helpful.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Abiding,

Everything you said, is what I also concluded. So I know it's not just me then! When I sat under his teaching, I always felt that whatever the topic was, that he seemed to always be trying to convince himself more than his audience. He is all over the place in his quest for something he can sink his teeth into, everywhere but the obvious place....God's word. Most of his sermons are based on what other men have said about the bible, on their books, not on his own study of God's word. He is leaving the church in August, to be an "evangelist" in the Philadelphia area. Though in all honesty he does not possess the gift of an evangelist, he rarely ever even shared the gospel from the pulpit, where it is easy to do, let alone in a hostile setting.

I have to wonder what kind of man the church will look for after him? I have this feeling that they will take whoever comes through the door, and say it must be God's will, without ever giving it any thought whatsoever. I guess time will tell.

RT