Why I believe we may be in the 70th week of Daniel

[Triton57]

Please don't answer the poll until after reading the research

He that answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame unto him.

The reason I believe we are in the 70th week is because of several things I came across in my studies. I'm sure many have heard me expound on these things already, but I think this lays it out a little better so I'm starting a new thread focused on this. When the data is put together, it reveals some amazing "coincidences" and I don't really believe in coincidence. I'll touch on each here and you can go to the links for more information. Please don't hesitate to ask me questions. Sometimes I don't think of everything so prompting helps me look in those places I may not have yet.
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14,000 days
What's significant about this is that the first instance we have of this exact time period is straight from the Bible. It marks the exact time from when Israel left Mt. Sinai until they crossed into the Promised Land through the River Jordan. If you'll recall, God said the generation over 20 years of age could not enter the promised land because of their lack of faith in God's provision.

There are two other instances in history that have this exact time period. The first fulfills the prophecy Christ made at the triumphal entry noted in Luke 19:41-44. It was exactly 14,000 days later on August 5, 70 AD that the adults and the now grown children that they were carrying at the truimphal entry were laid to the ground when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Roman army.

The final instance mirrors the first in that Israel didn't accept God's provision, rather relying on their own abilities. This was on June 7, 1967 when Israel took back Jerusalem and the Temple Mount in the Six-Day-War. On the very day they took the Temple Mount, out of fear of the surrounding Muslim nations, they gave over control to the Muslims and it has been under their control ever since. There is no way Israel should have won the Six-Day-War, God won it for them and gave them back the Temple Mount, but they rejected it out of fear. Exactly 14,000 days later was October 5, 2005, or Rosh Hashanah, which brings us to the next piece of evidence.
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Rosh Hashanah, 2005
Now besides the amazing "coincidence" that Rosh Hashanah, 2005 would be exactly 14,000 days, one "power" generation, from when Israel rejected God's provision, there's the fact that Rosh Hashanah marks the Jewish new year. And what better time to start the last seven years of God dealing with Israel as a nation than on the new year?!! It is also called the feast of trumpets. It is supposed to be an awakening blast. This would fit with waking Israel up for the final seven years. This may not happen overnight, but I think it's evident that attitudes are slowly changing both in Israel and in the Christian communities who are paying attention and watching.

But what is most amazing of all is what coincided with Rosh Hashanah from the Bible!

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

"Wonder" is also interpreted as sign. The identity of this woman is interpreted from scripture itself, Genesis 37:9-11. Believe it or not, there was a sign in the heavens on the very day of Rosh Hashanah, and it looked something like this:



Coincidence? I'll let you be the judge.
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Exact day prophecies from Daniel and Revelation
As if that detail isn't enough, God provided even greater detail to build on what I've already presented. It came through His servants the prophets Daniel and John. Both of these prophets gave prophecies whos length was relayed in exact days/months/years. Understanding the nature of the prophetic year, 360 days, we know exact numbers of days between end-time events! I laid them out in a chart to help put it together better. This chart and the rest of them (there are several) can be viewed here.



When combining the start date of October 5, 2005 to the framework given in the exact day prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, we get the following data:



So, given these details gleaned from scripture and factual data, it would appear that the 70th week is based completely on God's timing and was pre-planned when the universe was created such that everything would converge on this one point in time to point to the beginning of the 70th week. I believe this is clearly God's fingerprint on events.

So how does this fit with Daniel 9:27?

And he [antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "he" in this verse refers to the antichrist from verse 26. (more in my 70 Weeks of Daniel Bible study) There is nothing that states this is the 70th week. It's an assumption made based on a missing week of years that is not accounted for except for the antichrist's covenant. So the real question is, given the information above, does the 70th week of Daniel start on God's timing or Satan's timing? Are these two dates independent of each other? I believe they are, and I believe they still agree 100% with the Bible. Here's a chart I made to help visualize this:



So what does this mean? If this timeline is correct, we could see the Gog/Magog invasion before the year is out, which would help get Israel on the Temple Mount, I believe. Now the news which I feel may be leading up to the Gog/Magog invasion attempt. There is much more news which I've put in one page here if you would like to look through it.

• DEBKAfile’s sources: Tehran and Damascus are gearing up for a pre-emptive Syrian attack on Israel to ward off a US strike on Iran’s nuclear sites (October 7, 2006)
• DEBKA Exclusive: Moscow posts two Chechen platoons in S. Lebanon, one headed by an ex-rebel commander, “to improve Russia’s image in the Arab world” (October 7, 2006)
• Hamas amassing large stockpiles of weapons (June 7, 2006)
• Turkish, Iranian Armies Build Up Forces Along Iraq's Only Quiet Area (August 12, 2006)
• Tehran Seeks Help From Turkey on Lebanon (August 13, 2006)
• Turkish Parlament Gives Green Light to Turkish Troop Deployment in Lebanon (August 29, 2006)
• Turkey reaching out to Arab world - leaving Europe behind? (August 29, 2006)
• 'Gaza readying for war' (October 2, 2006)
• Syria Threat Over Golan Puts Israel On War Alert (October 1, 2006)
• Russian Troops Make First Mideast Foray in Lebanon for Centuries (September 27, 2006)
• Iran Making Worldwide Move to Bring Islamic War to American and Israel Soil (September 26, 2006)
• Turkish PM Erdogan Says 'Nobody Should Expect Us to Remain Neutral': Reactions From the Turkish Media to the Middle East Crisis (August 16, 2006)
• The Pentagon Is Worried By Syria's 'Rising Self-Confidence' (August 11, 2006)
• Syria, Turkey Revive Strategic Partnership (August 10, 2006)
• Syria Checks Bomb Shelters (August 10, 2006)
• UNCOVERED: RUSSIAN-SYRIAN-IRANIAN AXIS (July 24, 2006)
• Turkish anti-West mood 'rising' (July 20, 2006)
• Iran, Syria Agree to Protect Hezbollah (July 20, 2006)
• DEBKAfile Exclusive: New Syria-Iranian defense treaty opens way for Iran's Revolutionary Guards to deploy on Israel’s Golan border by summer’s end (June 19, 2006)

There's much more than this. I could see good reason for a pre-emptive attack by Israel against Syria. The Bible talks about Damascus being made a ruinous heap. Isaiah 17 However, Damascus is one of the longest constantly inhabited cities in history. It has never been destroyed. Damascus houses some of the highest leaders on the Israeli hit-list who are currently planning their next move against Israel. If Israel senses this and strikes, Syria has a defense agreement with Iran that would bring them against Israel like hooks in the jaws. Russia has clearly made ties with Iran and many Russian missiles were found exploded in this last barrage. Both Russia and Turkey are currently planning on placing "peacekeeping" troops in Southern Lebanon on the Northern border of Israel. This is not far from Jerusalem. With all the weapons cache bunkers in Southern Lebanon, even "peacekeeping" troops can grab a gun. Israel is asking for Turkish troops and Ezekiel 38,39 names Turkey, Russia, and Iran (Persia), along with others who will attack Israel. I think the alliances are clearly already there and now the troops that we may soon see decimated on the mountains of Israel are being planned for Southern Lebanon. This means that all this could happen before the year is out, which would fit perfectly with the EU's plan for the seven year covenant with Israel to begin January 1, 2007. It has a mid-term review (3 1/2 years for those who know prophecy). The Bible says that when these forces are wiped out with fire and brimstone from heaven in the mountains of Israel, that the world will know the God of Israel is who He says He is. Perhaps that is how Israel is allowed to cohabitate on the Temple Mount with the Muslims, fulfilling Revelation 11:1,2. This would mean the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, without the outer court. This is the very temple that the antichrist will declare himself God in soon after. And when he does, the final 1290 days begin. After 30 days, God's wrath will be poured out in seven successive trumpet judgments and then seven bowls, each signifying an event of great disaster on the earth. But for those in Christ, we are not appointed to God's wrath. They are watching for His return with oil in their lamps. They are removed from the earth in the rapture before God's wrath is poured out. These things are all written about in the Bible for those who believe because we are no longer His servants but His friends, John 15:12-15 and He tells His friends what He will do. Amos 3:7 I have tried to put all my Bible studies in one place to quickly catch up for those interested in understanding the near future and your Savior better. Watchman Bible Study Guide

I also mail out a newsletter with current news and how it relates to Bible prophecy. If you would like to receive the Watchman Newsletter, please send a "subscribe" message to: watchmanbiblestudy@comcast.net and keep watching!!!

[hirutbuddy]

I agree. I believe the gogmagog war will happen before Jan.1, 2007. But, could you please explain the difference between the 70th week and the ac covenant with many for 1week. They are both 7yrs, am I correct? God bless you for all your research.

[watch2000]

I'm still not a believer in the 14000 day generation theory, i still believe in the 14400 generation.



Also,
In 2006, we reach a milestone marker on November 8, 2006.
On the Jewish canader, November 8, 2006 is Cheshvan 17

Exactly 14400 days from the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 which is exactly 40 Jewish years we arrive at Cheshvan 17, which is the date the Jews believe the Noah entered the Ark and the Flood began.

[hirutbuddy]

and from 1967-2007 is 40 years. Maybe the temple will be ready in the summer of 2007.

[Salty Skipper]

I have always thought that Gog/Magog could happen before the 7 year covenant is confirmed. I think that islam is going to be beaten back "just enough" for the middle of the road religeous element can enter in. JMO

I would like to add that I have had a really stange feeling since last year...around July-August of last year as best as I can remember. Things just simply haven't been the same since. I think that you may be on to something, Triton.

[hirutbuddy]

How can Christ return before the 7 years?I thought the Bible says for time, times, and half time, 31/2 years from the time he abomination thingy is placed in the temple. Help.

[Triton57]

How can Christ return before the 7 years?I thought the Bible says for time, times, and half time, 31/2 years from the time he abomination thingy is placed in the temple. Help.

It comes from the exact day prophecies from Daniel 12:11 compared with Revelation 13:5.

Daniel 12:11 says from the abomination of desolation, it's 1290 days. However, the beast only rules for 1260 days. 1290 - 1260 = 30 days

The answer comes when we see how the antichrist and false prophet are destroyed, at Christ's return in glory.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So if the beast is given his power at the abomination of desolation 1290 days before the end, and he is stopped at Christ's return 1260 days later, then Christ must return 30 days before the end of the 70th week.

I hope that answers your question.

[Salty Skipper]

I'm having trouble reading the charts because I broke my glasses. So according to the start of the 70th week, the aod would take place on Feb. 16, 2009? Regardless of when the aod takes place, will we be able to count both forward and backward to determine exactly where we are in the timeline?

[Finaldash]

I think there is a chance that we are in the 70th week. But I think nothing is definite until we hit AOD. Where would you have the first few seals opening?
Close to where the 70th week started or a little bit after the covenant with many? Or do you believe like Herb does? He says the first seals opens after AOD.
I also have to thank the Lord for all your work. I always reference your site if I have tough questions from my friends.

David

[Triton57]

I'm having trouble reading the charts because I broke my glasses. So according to the start of the 70th week, the aod would take place on Feb. 16, 2009? Regardless of when the aod takes place, will we be able to count both forward and backward to determine exactly where we are in the timeline?

Exactly. All these dates center on the abomination of desolation and Daniel 12:11 placing that 30 days before the exact middle of the seven years.

A little history on how I came to the dates I did. First, I put together the framework for the 70th week based on the exact day prophecies from Daniel and Revelation before I applied any dates. (I had actually discounted the 14,000 days at that time) Daniel specifically laid out several time periods in exact days. What I did was determine how many days were between the main events based on those scriptures, again completely independent of dates. The main events were:

• Start of the 70th week
• Abomination of desolation
• Sixth seal
• Christ's return in glory
• End of the 70th week

After deducing those periods between events, I noticed that Rosh Hashanah was also the Jewish new year, a fact I had previously overlooked because of the rapture/trumpet hype in 2005 around this date. (I was pre-trib then)

At this point, the start of the 7 years and the Jewish new year clicked in my head and I realized that would be the perfect time to start the last seven year cycle. I then excitedly applied October 5, 2005 to the start event, the beginning of the 70th week to see what dates would come up. I used this online date calculator to add days to the date. This way I could bypass any differences in the calendar since all the timeframes were in days.

So the feast of trumpets may have been fulfilled in the start of the 70th week. This leaves Yom Kippur and Tabernacles. An interesting date that came up was connected to Christ's return in glory.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Christ's return in glory is dependent upon Israel as a nation calling on Him. They won't see Him until they do. So what date came up for Christ's return in glory exactly 1260 days after the abomination of desolation? (Revelation 13:5 & Revelation 19:20) The 9th of Av.

I believe that Israel, protected in the wilderness, will see the armies gathering to Armageddon. Both temples were destroyed on this date before, and I think it will be the last straw for those 1/3 who still hadn't accepted Christ. I think at this point they will call upon Christ as a nation and He will return in glory upon their recognition as prophesied.

Another interesting "coincidence" that arises lies in the abomination of desolation timing. In 2009, Purim is celebrated sunset March 9, 2009 - nightfall March 10, 2009. This is 22 days after the abomination of desolation is supposed to happen according to this timeline. What's interesting is what Purim celebrates.

Purim is one of the most joyous and fun holidays on the Jewish calendar. It commemorates a time when the Jewish people living in Persia were saved from extermination. The story of Purim is told in the Biblical book of Esther. The villain of the story is Haman, an arrogant, egotistical advisor to the king. Haman hated Mordecai because Mordecai refused to bow down to Haman, so Haman plotted to destroy the Jewish people. In a speech that is all too familiar to Jews, Haman told the king, "There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of your realm. Their laws are different from those of every other people's, and they do not observe the king's laws; therefore it is not befitting the king to tolerate them." Esther 3:8. The king gave the fate of the Jewish people to Haman, to do as he pleased to them. Haman planned to exterminate all of the Jews.

Purim is celebrated on the 14th day of Adar, which is usually in March. (March 10, 2009) The 13th of Adar is the day that Haman chose for the extermination of the Jews, and the day that the Jews battled their enemies for their lives. On the day afterwards, the 14th, they celebrated their survival. In cities that were walled in the time of Joshua, Purim is celebrated on the 15th of the month, because the book of Esther says that in Shushan (a walled city), deliverance from the massacre was not complete until the next day. The 15th is referred to as Shushan Purim.

What's fascinating to me is that the timeframe for Jacob's trouble is 30 days maximum. (Daniel 12:11 - Revelation 12:14) So Purim, lying 22 days after the abomination of desolation would fulfill the prophecy:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I just noticed that verse 22 talks about the shortened days for the elect. BTW, Israel is labelled as God's elect too. Isaiah 45:4 What this means is that Purim, celebrated by the Jews for their salvation from complete destruction, is 22 days after their attempted complete destruction at the abomination of desolation. it's within the 30 day time period allotted by the exact day prophecies, but it's also shortened. I believe that on Purim, 2009 Israel will be taken into the wilderness on wings of a great eagle and saved from complete destruction.


All just a coincidence???? I'll let every person judge for themselves. Keep watching!!!

[Triton57]

I think there is a chance that we are in the 70th week. But I think nothing is definite until we hit AOD. Where would you have the first few seals opening?
Close to where the 70th week started or a little bit after the covenant with many? Or do you believe like Herb does? He says the first seals opens after AOD.
I also have to thank the Lord for all your work. I always reference your site if I have tough questions from my friends.

I agree David. The only time we know for sure who the antichrist is comes when he reveals himself. What I'm presenting here are all the "coincidences" I've discovered in my studies. I can't state factually that they are all 100% validated. I think that most watchers will agree that there are quite a few coincidences when viewing the facts though.

To put it another way, I'll be 99.99% sure of the timing aspect if the Gog/Magog attack happens before the year is out and 99.999% sure if the temple is rebuilt within a year from today. I won't be 100% sure until the abomination of desolation, then we all will be. We'll know there are 1290 days left before the end of the week and that our redemption draws VERY nigh!

I haven't connected myself with placement of the seals yet. I don't feel I've done enough study on that aspect of the seals. However, from what I do know, I suspect that the first seal will be opened when the antichrist starts using peace to take over the world, putting down extremist groups (or perceived extremist groups) and having the world legitimize this action for safety and security. It will be false though and will end with the antichrist declaring himeself God. I think we may see this start with the covenant with many, or the ENPI.

1st Seal: I believe the base word for "bow" in the Greek gives us greater insight into what is being said here. I believe the antichrist brings forth a deal, the "covenant with many" (Daniel 9:27 - Is this the ENPI beginning January 1, 2007?) that works so well that all the kings give him their power. He goes out victoriously overcoming his enemies, the terrorists and those viewed as terrorists. In other words, this would be the antichrist producing an apparent peace covenant that has the affect of stopping terrorism, which leads the world to give him a crown. Revelation 13:1-10

This will have the effect of giving him a savior appearance because it's all in the name of peace and to those who don't know God, peace means "good" and therefore, right. I believe Christians will be included in the extremist camp because of our belief that there is only One God. Anyway, that's my view as of now. I'm always studying it further though.

[Jerry]

Daniel's 70th week has NOT... I repeat... has NOT began yet. It will begin when the AC signs a seven-year covenant with Israel. Daniel’s 70th week and the seven-sealed book of Revelation comprise the SAME seven years time period. When the AC signs the covenant, Daniel’s 70th week will begin. When the 7th angel blows his trumpet in Revelation 11:15, Daniel’s 70th week will end.

[water]

Triton, I can't concentrate on anything after my day at work, LOL, so I am going to have to read this tomorrow.

It looks pretty interesting at a first glance.


FYI - I wanted to add that I had the strongest impression when this most recent war broke out that we were seeing the hooks in the jaws...the very begining of the events that lead to the war.

[member x]

Daniel's 70th week has NOT... I repeat... has NOT began yet. It will begin when the AC signs a seven-year covenant with Israel. Daniel’s 70th week and the seven-sealed book of Revelation comprise the SAME seven years time period. When the AC signs the covenant, Daniel’s 70th week will begin. When the 7th angel blows his trumpet in Revelation 11:15, Daniel’s 70th week will end.

Jerry,

You're very bold my friend :) I'll meet that boldness with boldness, if that is okay - but don't mistake it for unloving.

Did you hear Triton out?
Can you provide a scripture that specifically shows us that the 70th week starts when the covenant is signed?

Can you at least admit the 14,000 days and the way it would apply here is really quite amazing?

[Jerry]

Hi member X,

I’ll be happy to provide you with a Scripture that proves that Daniel’s 70th week begins with the signing of the seven-year covenant.

As the angel Gabriel begins to explain the 70th week to Daniel he says in Daniel 9:27:

And he (the anti-Christ) shall confirm (make) the covenant with many (Israel) for one week (seven years): and in the midst (toward the middle) of the week (the seven year period) he (the anti-Christ) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (the AoD) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

[member x]

Hi member X,

I’ll be happy to provide you with a Scripture that proves that Daniel’s 70th week begins with the signing of the seven-year covenant.

As the angel Gabriel begins to explain the 70th week to Daniel he says in Daniel 9:27:

And he (the anti-Christ) shall confirm (make) the covenant with many (Israel) for one week (seven years): and in the midst (toward the middle) of the week (the seven year period) he (the anti-Christ) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations (the AoD) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hi Jerry,

I've ofen thought that was the beginning as well - however, it doesn't specifically say this is the start of the 70th week. I can see how it might appear as so, since we are told of that after the 69th the messiah will be cut off- then we are told how to identify the prince of the people, and then the covenant for a week - but does it directly say the confirmation is the start of the final week?

confirm
Strong's 01396
1) to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great
a) (Qal)
1) to be strong, mighty
2) to prevail
b) (Piel) to make strong, strengthen
c) (Hiphil)
1) to confirm, give strength
2) to confirm (a covenant)
d) (Hithpael)
1) to show oneself mighty
2) to act proudly (toward God)

many
Strong's 07227
1) much, many, great
a) much
b) many
c) abounding in
d) more numerous than
e) abundant, enough
f) great
g) strong
h) greater than
adv
i) much, exceedingly
n m
2) captain, chief

confirm looks to be making strong, which is why I feel the ENP is very significant - the conveant already exits, but the ENP makes it strong.

the many - as shown appears to be just that - many. i put Israel in here too, as the whole point revolves around Israel. - just a side point.

The reason I am asking this is - I am not saying you are wrong - nor am I saying Triton is right. But is the connection between the 70th week and the covenant strong enough to say it is the start? Or is it just strong enough to say it happens in the 70th week?

Do we have the scriptural hardened proof to say one way or the other? And what has been the pattern so far?

[Triton57]

Do we have the scriptural hardened proof to say one way or the other? And what has been the pattern so far?

That's what I've been thinking. The first 69 weeks were not Satan's doing. Should we assume that Satan's covenant marks the beginning of the final week of God's dealing with Israel? It's a possibility, but so is Rosh Hashanah, 2005 and that timing with the 14,000 days can only be attributed to coincidence or God's design.

Given the scriptural foundation of the 14,000 days and what happened June 7, 1967 I just can't ignore it. I don't believe in coincidences like that. What are the odds that a generational period of 14,000 days marked by the exact same reasons (Israel not trusting God's provision) it happened the first time meeting with the same sign in the heavens spoken of in Revelation 12:1 at the same space-time? I'm not a statistician, but I have a feeling that's a lot of zeros.

Like I've said before though, I'm in wait mode to see how accurately what I've been studying will play out. If it's wrong, then it's wrong. If it's not, then I believe we can expect to see the Gog/Magog invasion soon and the covenant with many soon after with the rebuilding of the temple after that. Then everyone will be amazed at the diplomacy of the man who made it all happen. Then I'll be sure. Until then... keep watching!

[Jerry]

Many people probably won’t believe me (they’ve scoffed at this before), but the Holy Spirit revealed to my dad several years ago that Daniel’s 70th week and the seven sealed book of Revelation both comprise a time period of seven years… the SAME seven years. By knowing this and by understanding each of the seven seals, then you can recognize that the opening of the first seal is the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week.

But, let’s see if we can prove this with Scriptures.

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…

Ok, by reading this verse, we know that a SEVEN YEAR covenant will be signed and toward the MIDDLE of the week or 7 seven period (about 3½ years later), the anti-Christ will break this covenant. Let’s look at a couple more Scriptures.

Daniel 7:25
… and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:5
The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

Now, these verses are saying that the anti-Christ’s reign will be 3½ years. Since the anti-Christ begins to reign at the opening of the first seal, according to Scripture, his reign MUST be over around the MIDDLE of Daniel’s 70th week. Now, since the Great Tribulation on the Jews doesn’t begin until the AoD is set up in the temple, and the AoD won’t be set up until around the MIDDLE of Daniel’s 70th week, this lets us know several things.

First, knowing that the 6th Seal is the Rapture and knowing that at the Rapture the anti-Christ’s reign ends, we will know that the first five seals comprise a time period of 3½ years. Knowing this, we can now understand that the 7th seal (the Wrath of God time period) must also comprise a time period of 3½ years because the seven sealed book is a seven year time period. Let’s see if we can find a Scripture to confirm this.

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent…

Yes! This Scripture is referring to the Jews fleeing into the wilderness when the anti-Christ sets up the AoD in the temple. This Scripture says that those who flee will be protected and nourished for 3½ years. Now this happens during the Wrath of God time period during the 7th seal. So this proves that the 7th seal is 3½ years long… and proving that the seven sealed book is a 7 year time period… two separate time periods of 3½ years each… the Tribulation on the Gentiles by the anti-Christ in seals 1-5 and the Great Tribulation on the Jews toward the end of the 5th seal… and then the 6th seal is the Rapture… then the 7th seal is God’s Wrath on the Gentiles left behind after the Rapture for 3½ years.

And since this is a seven year time period… and Daniel’s 70th week is also a seven year time period… you have a light bulb light up above your head and you say, “Hey! This IS the SAME seven years!” And since this is the SAME seven-year period, you know that the anti-Christ signs the covenant at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week! How about them apples!

[Triton57]

Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…

Ok, by reading this verse, we know that a SEVEN YEAR covenant will be signed and toward the MIDDLE of the week or 7 seven period (about 3½ years later), the anti-Christ will break this covenant.

Midst (H2677)
חצי
chêtsîy (khay-tsee')
From H2673; the half or middle: - half, middle, mid [-night], midst, part, two parts.

It can also be the middle of two parts. We know the AoD happens 1290 days before the end, so it's not exactly in the middle, but the covenant with many may not need to be 1260 days from the AoD, just in the midst of two parts, sometime in between.

Let’s look at a couple more Scriptures.

Daniel 7:25
… and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation 13:5
The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

Now, these verses are saying that the anti-Christ’s reign will be 3½ years. Since the anti-Christ begins to reign at the opening of the first seal, according to Scripture, his reign MUST be over around the MIDDLE of Daniel’s 70th week.

The antichrist reigns until Christ returns in glory and throws him in the lake of fire. Revelation 19:20 So subtract 1260 days from that point, and that is the point that the dragon gives the beast his power, at the AoD when Lucifer loses the war in heaven and is cast out and goes after the woman, who is Israel. Revelation 12:7-13 This is what Matthew 24:15-22 is all about, which is linked by a singular event in history to the Jews by two other Old Testament scriptures, Jeremiah 30:4-7 and Daniel 12:1. The antichrist's reign with Lucifer's power starts at the AoD, imo, not the first seal. At that point, he's still wooing the world with his mad skills, but he's not given his power from the dragon until the dragon realizes he's been cast to the earth. The woe to the earth is because the dragon will cause great tribulation until Christ puts a stop to him.

Now, since the Great Tribulation on the Jews doesn’t begin until the AoD is set up in the temple, and the AoD won’t be set up until around the MIDDLE of Daniel’s 70th week, this lets us know several things.

The only problem is that Revelation 12 makes it clear that the dragon goes after the Jews in Judea first, and then turns his attention to the rest of the world only after Israel, the woman, is taken on wings of a great eagle and protected from the dragon for 1260 days.

First, knowing that the 6th Seal is the Rapture and knowing that at the Rapture the anti-Christ’s reign ends, we will know that the first five seals comprise a time period of 3½ years.

I believe the idea that the rapture is the end of the antichrist's reign is based on the assumption that if the saints are gone, then the antichrist can't persecute them anymore. Also on the idea that the first seal is the beginning of the antichrist's reign. However, at the fifth vial, the antichrist's kingdom is still apparently there.

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

We also know that they're living in Jerusalem when the two witnesses are killed and they're killed by the beast from the bottomless pit. Revelation 11:7 This beast isn't released until the fifth trumpet, which has to be in the last 3 1/2 years sometime.

There's also the fact that all seven seals are opened before the trumpets are even handed out. Revelation 8:1,2 I believe scripture sets up the seals, trumpets, and bowls for us like this:

Knowing this, we can now understand that the 7th seal (the Wrath of God time period) must also comprise a time period of 3½ years...

I'm not sure how you can determine the seventh seal is the wrath of God. This is all that's said:

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

I'm guessing because you believe the sixth seal marks the wrath of God and the only seal left is the seventh? Is there something in the Bible that says the seals have to cover the full seven years?

All the Bible says as far as time goes for the seventh seal is 1/2 hour. It seems that you're assuming the seventh seal is 3 1/2 years instead of 1/2 hour as scripture would indicate. Then the focus goes to the trumpets and bowls. I believe this is the case because the scroll written on the inside and out and sealed with seven seals must have all the seals opened to open the scroll and read the judgments written on it from the beginning of the world. It proves that God is outside of time because His judgments are just. Christ is the only One who can break the seals to accomplish God's righteous judgment. That's how I see it anyways. If the Bible doesn't tell me the seven seals have to cover seven years, I don't want to assume they do.

because the seven sealed book is a seven year time period. Let’s see if we can find a Scripture to confirm this.

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent…

Yes! This Scripture is referring to the Jews fleeing into the wilderness when the anti-Christ sets up the AoD in the temple. This Scripture says that those who flee will be protected and nourished for 3½ years. Now this happens during the Wrath of God time period during the 7th seal. So this proves that the 7th seal is 3½ years long…

That's still built on assumption that the antichrist's reign starts at the first seal. I believe this 3 1/2 years marks the time that Satan is giving him power, which happens when Satan is cast to the earth when Michael and the angels cast him out. This is at the AoD because Michael stands up in Daniel 12:1, which is directly connected to Matthew 24:15-22 being a time of great trouble unlike any other in history.

and proving that the seven sealed book is a 7 year time period… two separate time periods of 3½ years each… the Tribulation on the Gentiles by the anti-Christ in seals 1-5 and the Great Tribulation on the Jews toward the end of the 5th seal… and then the 6th seal is the Rapture… then the 7th seal is God’s Wrath on the Gentiles left behind after the Rapture for 3½ years.

And since this is a seven year time period… and Daniel’s 70th week is also a seven year time period… you have a light bulb light up above your head and you say, “Hey! This IS the SAME seven years!” And since this is the SAME seven-year period, you know that the anti-Christ signs the covenant at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week! How about them apples!

So then the antichrist loses his power at the AoD when Lucifer is cast down? How does Daniel 12:11 fit in? It says 1290 days from the AoD.

If the antichrist isn't in power for the last 3 1/2 years, what's he doing during that time before Christ returns in glory at the end of the week to throw him in the lake of fire?

Do you believe that once the rapture happens that nobody can be saved anymore so therefore, there's no saints to persecute?

[water]

Triton, I really appreciate how you put your original post together, well done!

You are way ahead of me in such studies, so my questions may seem pretty ignorant, but I noticed that using 14000 days from 6/7/67 using *365* day years is what brings us to 10/5/05; however, you state that we should be thinking in terms of 360 day years when reviewing prophecy.

Could this discrepancy tie into the 14400 vs 14000 difference noted by another poster above?

At what point do we start and stop using the 360 day years with respect to prophetic events?

Edit: I just wanted to add that using the 14400 days from 6/7/67 brings us to 11/8/06.

[Jerry]

Phillip wrote:

It can also be the middle of two parts. We know the AoD happens 1290 days before the end, so it's not exactly in the middle, but the covenant with many may not need to be 1260 days from the AoD, just in the midst of two parts, sometime in between.

That’s what I’ve said. I didn’t say “exactly on the middle day”, but I said TOWARD or AROUND the middle of the week.

The antichrist reigns until Christ returns in glory and throws him in the lake of fire.

The anti-Christ reigns in name only because since the Christians have been Raptured and the Jew who fled are living safely in the mountains, there is no one left to persecute. Besides, the anti-Christ will be trying to save his own skin. The Bible says that the anti-Christ and false prophet will suffer along with everyone else during the Wrath of God.

Revelation 19:20 So subtract 1260 days from that point, and that is the point that the dragon gives the beast his power, at the AoD when Lucifer loses the war in heaven and is cast out and goes after the woman, who is Israel.

The AoD happens AFTER the anti-Christ has persecuted the Christian Gentiles for nearly 3½ years.

The antichrist's reign with Lucifer's power starts at the AoD, imo, not the first seal.

I strongly disagree. The anti-Christ “goes forth conquering and to conquer” at the first seal. The Jews are at peace. Who and where will he conquer? The Christians in the Gentile nations!

At that point, he's still wooing the world with his mad skills, but he's not given his power from the dragon until the dragon realizes he's been cast to the earth.

Again, I disagree. The anti-Christ is actually the devil in the flesh just as Jesus is God in the flesh.

The only problem is that Revelation 12 makes it clear that the dragon goes after the Jews in Judea first, and then turns his attention to the rest of the world only after Israel, the woman, is taken on wings of a great eagle and protected from the dragon for 1260 days.

No, the anti-Christ goes after the Christian Gentiles first for nearly 3½ years… then toward the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, he will break his covenant with Israel, set up the A0D in the temple and declare war on the Jews. Some Jews will flee to the wilderness as instructed by Jesus. The anti-Christ will destroy those who don’t flee. That’s what this Scripture is talking about.

I believe the idea that the rapture is the end of the antichrist's reign is based on the assumption that if the saints are gone, then the antichrist can't persecute them anymore. Also on the idea that the first seal is the beginning of the antichrist's reign. However, at the fifth vial, the antichrist's kingdom is still apparently there.

Well, it’s not an assumption; it’s based on knowledge of the Scriptures and having an understanding of the Seven Seals. At the 5th Vial, the anti-Christ will still be living in Jerusalem and reigning, but in name only. He is suffering from God’s Wrath along with everyone else.

We also know that they're living in Jerusalem when the two witnesses are killed and they're killed by the beast from the bottomless pit. Revelation 11:7 This beast isn't released until the fifth trumpet, which has to be in the last 3 1/2 years sometime.

Where did you get this theology? The beast you are talking about is the anti-Christ which arises at the opening of the 1st seal, and also is the SAME beast arising out of the sea in Revelation 13:1.

There's also the fact that all seven seals are opened before the trumpets are even handed out.

That’s true. I’ve always said this.

I'm not sure how you can determine the seventh seal is the wrath of God.

I thought this was elementary to most everyone. I think you’re the first person I have come across that said this.

During the Rapture (6th Seal) Revelation 6:16-17 says:

And (Gentle sinners) said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 7th Seal ushers in the Wrath of God. The ½ hour of silence in Heaven is the calm before the storm… The seven angels with trumpets, the seven vials, the seven thunders, the Battle of Armageddon… all are part of the 7th Seal.

I'm guessing because you believe the sixth seal marks the wrath of God and the only seal left is the seventh?

No, the 6th Seal is the Rapture… not wrath or judgments. The 7th seal is the Wrath of God.

Is there something in the Bible that says the seals have to cover the full seven years?

Yes, I’ve proven this with Scripture in an earlier post in this thread.

All the Bible says as far as time goes for the seventh seal is 1/2 hour. It seems that you're assuming the seventh seal is 3 1/2 years instead of 1/2 hour as scripture would indicate. Then the focus goes to the trumpets and bowls. I believe this is the case because the scroll written on the inside and out and sealed with seven seals must have all the seals opened to open the scroll and read the judgments written on it from the beginning of the world. It proves that God is outside of time because His judgments are just. Christ is the only One who can break the seals to accomplish God's righteous judgment. That's how I see it anyways. If the Bible doesn't tell me the seven seals have to cover seven years, I don't want to assume they do.

To understand prophecy, you MUST… I said you MUST… I mean it’s absolutely IMPERATIVE that you understand the Seven Seals. If you don’t understand the Seven Seals, then you will NEVER, EVER understand prophecy, no matter how much you try.

I am very fortunate and humbled by having the Lord reveal the SECRETS that the Seven Seals contain. Most people don’t understand what I am about to say… but… most of the Book of Revelation… from chapters 8, verse 2 through chapter 19… is simply EXPLAINING events that happen at the opening of EACH SEAL. The Seven Sealed Book IS end time prophecy… It’s THE Book CONTAINING end time prophecy EVENTS. And Revelation is simply REVEALING the Seven Sealed Book of Prophecy and explaining what events happen at the opening of each seal. Revelation wasn’t named Revelation without any meaning. The word Revelation means “exposer”, “disclosure”, “understanding”, “revealed”, “eye-opener”, etc. So, WHY DON’T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IT??? It’s because they DON’T understand the Seven Seals!!

That's still built on assumption that the antichrist's reign starts at the first seal. I believe this 3 1/2 years marks the time that Satan is giving him power, which happens when Satan is cast to the earth when Michael and the angels cast him out. This is at the AoD because Michael stands up in Daniel 12:1, which is directly connected to Matthew 24:15-22 being a time of great trouble unlike any other in history.

Looks like you believe that the Wrath of God is the Great Tribulation. I pray that’s not the case. Many people think this. This is an old man made doctrine that has deceived many. The Great Tribulation on the Jews last only 4-6 weeks or so because it happens toward the end of the 5th Seal and just before the Rapture at the 6th Seal. By your time frame, you have the Great Tribulation spilling over into the Wrath of God time period, which is what a lot of people believe, but it’s not true.

So then the antichrist loses his power at the AoD when Lucifer is cast down? How does Daniel 12:11 fit in? It says 1290 days from the AoD.

He doesn’t lose his power at the AoD… He loses it a few weeks later when the Rapture occurs. As far as Daniel 12:11… the 1290 days is taking into account the 3½ years of the Wrath of God (after the Rapture) with 30 days left over… which is just about the time frame for the Great Tribulation on the Jews (I believe 4-6 weeks).

If the antichrist isn't in power for the last 3 1/2 years, what's he doing during that time before Christ returns in glory at the end of the week to throw him in the lake of fire?

He’s trying to save his own skin and suffering along with everyone else during the Wrath of God.

Do you believe that once the rapture happens that nobody can be saved anymore so therefore, there's no saints to persecute?

Yes… to teach otherwise is teaching a false doctrine and giving people false hope. THREE TIMES in Revelation, it says “MEN REPENTED NOT” during the Wrath of God. Also, the parable of the ten virgins is Biblical proof that no Gentile is saved after the Rapture.

[bchandler]

I have one major point of contention with the wrath starting with the seventh seal...

Look closely at the word... in the 6th seal MEN are crying out saying God's wrath has come... I personally believe what we are seeing here is simple judgement NOT wrath and John is just faithfully recording the words of MEN here... but look further in revelation... when does GOD or his Angel declare God's wrath begins???

It is during the seventh trumpet...

First we see the harvest of wheat (rapture)
Followed immediately by the harvest of the grapes of wrath (clue)
Followed immediately by the seven bowls which are declared to be the "undiluted anger/wrath of God"

IMO God clearly shows us in scripture when he declares his wrath.

The question now is are the seals, trumpets, thunders and bowls sequential or consecutive in some kind of simultaneous execution. I have seen arguments to show consecutive running but have never been fully convinced of this because of subtle differences in desriptions of judgements that look like they could possibly be the same one.

[Jerry]

bchandler wrote:

I have one major point of contention with the wrath starting with the seventh seal...

Look closely at the word... in the 6th seal MEN are crying out saying God's wrath has come... I personally believe what we are seeing here is simple judgement NOT wrath and John is just faithfully recording the words of MEN here... but look further in revelation... when does GOD or his Angel declare God's wrath begins???

It is during the seventh trumpet...

At the opening of the 6th Seal, sinners will know that God’s Wrath is imminent. They will think that with everything happening… the earthquake, the stars falling, mountains and islands being moved, etc… that God’s Wrath IS falling! But… these signs are just ANNOUNCING the Rapture! God’s Wrath doesn’t begin until the 7th Seal.

As for as you saying that God’s Wrath begins during the seventh trumpet,
The seventh trumpet announces the END OF THIS AGE…..

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10:7)

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

Let’s look at WHEN God’s Wrath begins. Let’s read Revelation 15:1:

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Notice that this verse says “the seven LAST plagues”… not “the seven first plagues”… or not “the seven plagues”… but “the seven LAST plagues”… which means… there MUST have been many other plagues BEFORE this time!

This verse is simply saying that the LAST seven plagues will be MORE SEVERE than the plagues that have already been happening. God’s Wrath begins with the FIRST angel blowing his trumpet in Revelation 8:7.

The question now is are the seals, trumpets, thunders and bowls sequential or consecutive in some kind of simultaneous execution. I have seen arguments to show consecutive running but have never been fully convinced of this because of subtle differences in desriptions of judgements that look like they could possibly be the same one.

First of all, the Seals are not judgments… the Seven Sealed Book IS end time prophecy.

After the 7th Seal is opened, you have in chronological order…

Trumpets 1-6
Vials 1-7
Thunders 1-7
Trumpet 7

[bchandler]

Note I didnt say Gods wrath started at the seventh trumpet... I asked when God or his Angel declared God's wrath...

It is declared during the seventh trumpet... what is declared? that the seven bowls are the "undiluted wrath of God"!

Scripture is simple if we will let it be.

I dont quite get splitting the 7th trumpet from the others... doesn't make sense to me...

But if you look at it my way.... you see that we are here for most of the trib... we are raptured out... and there is no longer any hope of salvation for those remaining on the earth... The seven last judgements/plagues which make up the "undiluted wrath of God" are poured out on the earth.

IMO the previous plagues were judgements but not wrath... they were an attempt to cause as many as can be saved to be saved... while judging unrighteousness.

I was reading and praying about we are not appointed to wrath... and the spirit spoke to me... when does God declare his wrath? This prompted me to study this and i was surprised to discover that what I had been taught was God's wrath was declared by men, not God... I was further surprised to see that God clearly declares his wrath during the seventh trumpet, and says directly that the seven last judgements/plagues are his undiluted wrath.

This was shattering for me... when I was 22 the Lord showed me the falacy of pre-trib, and this was just as shattering... I now believe in a different version of pre-wrath, that almost puts me in a post-trib position.

I firmly believe that it was the Holy Spirit that asked me that question and guided me to discover this so plainly laid out in the scripture.

Currently I don't care whether certain things are sequential or consecutive because it no longer matters... I believe the seven last plagues are seperate regardless of what else may be sequential or consecutive.

This clearly places the rapture toward the end of the tribulation/great-trib. Based on other extrabiblical reasearch into the prophetic nature of the feasts... specifically Rosh-Hashanna, and the day of attonement. I have come to believe that the seven last plagues may be poured out in seven litteral days. wich would mean that we christians may see all but the last seven days of the tribulation periods.

I don't expect you to agree with me... but I came to this belief by, IMO, the direct leading of the Holy Spirit... so don't expect me to walk away with out some asstoundishingly solid proof.

[Jerry]

bchandler wrote:

dont quite get splitting the 7th trumpet from the others... doesn't make sense to me...

The 7th trumpet announces the end of this age... there are no more plagues after the 7th trumpet sounds.

The vials are poured out BETWEEN the 6th and 7th trumpets. Also, the 7 thunders utter their voices AFTER the 7th vial but BEFORE the 7th trumpet.

I now believe in a different version of pre-wrath, that almost puts me in a post-trib position.

If you are pre-wrath, then you are already post-trib, like I am. The Christians will go through the tribulation but NOT the Wrath of God. The tribulation is only 3½ years long... not 7 years as some people think.

Currently I don't care whether certain things are sequential or consecutive because it no longer matters

Christians won't be around during the trumpets, vials or thunders so it really doesn't matter except to the ones left behind after the Rapture.

I have come to believe that the seven last plagues may be poured out in seven litteral days. wich would mean that we christians may see all but the last seven days of the tribulation periods.

By saying this, you are placing God’s Wrath in the tribulation time period. However, God’s Wrath and the tribulation are two separate time periods with no relation to the other.

This is one of the main reasons people don’t understand prophecy. Many think that the tribulation occurs before the Rapture (which it does) and they think that the Great Tribulation occurs after the Rapture (which it does NOT).

People think that the Wrath of God IS the Great Tribulation… but it’s NOT.

The Tribulation is for the Christian Gentiles for nearly 3 ½ years (before the Rapture)… the Great Tribulation is for the Jews for about 4-6 weeks (also before the Rapture)… and the Wrath of God is for the sinners left behind (after the Rapture).

I don't expect you to agree with me... but I came to this belief by, IMO, the direct leading of the Holy Spirit... so don't expect me to walk away with out some asstoundishingly solid proof.

I understand your position and what you are saying. I KNOW that the Holy Spirit reveals things to different people. I am fortunate and humbled that He has revealed the secrets of the Seven Seals to me.

[hirutbuddy]

All it says in the Word is that there will be great tribulation for 31/2 years. The Woman will be protected for 31/2 years and the beast will ware out the saints of God. Believers have been going through tribulations for many, many years. No tribulation in Bible is stated, only great tribulation. Christians are in tribulation right now. Take a look at the believers in Sudan. These people are getting their limbs cut off for Christ. Yes, it will be Jacobs trouble for the second half of the great tribulation, but also there is the Wrath of God and great tribulation.

[Triton57]

Triton, I really appreciate how you put your original post together, well done!

Thanks!

You are way ahead of me in such studies, so my questions may seem pretty ignorant, but I noticed that using 14000 days from 6/7/67 using *365* day years is what brings us to 10/5/05; however, you state that we should be thinking in terms of 360 day years when reviewing prophecy.

Not ignorant at all, I actually hadn't thought of that before, which is why I'm posting this, to check myself with other minds.

The 14,000 days is a period of time found originally from scripture for the time from Mt. Sinai to the River Jordan crossing. It is a period of time representing a generation over the age of 20 that had to die in the wilderness wanderings. It is arrived at independent of dates or year length. It is arrived at by subtracting the amount of time it had been since Israel left Egypt from the River Jordan from the calculated time since Israel left Sinai since they left Egypt. That is the origin of this time period.

41 years | 1 month | 10 days ~ Deuteronomy 1:3 | Joshua 4:19 - Israel entered the promised land this long after leaving Egypt.
- 2 years | 2 month | 20 days ~ Numbers 10:11 - Israel left Mt. Sinai this long after leaving Egypt.
38 years | 10 month | 20 days

38 x 360 = 13,680
10 x 30 = 300
_______+ 20_________
...............= 14,000 days ~ The time from leaving Mt. Sinai to the promised land = 1 generation.

Whether you go by a 360 day year or a 365 day year, 14,000 days is the same length of time, 14,000 days. When you add 14,000 days to the 6/7/67 date in our 365 day calendar, you get 10/5/05. If we had a 360 day calendar, then the end-dates would be different comparing the two. However, we live in a 365-day world now and that's part of the amazing nature of this time frame. It just so happened that 14,000 days is the exact time from when Israel rejected God's provision in the taking of the Temple Mount to the Jewish new year, which just happened to coincide with signs in the heavens described in Revelation 12:1! If we were on a 360-day year we probably wouldn't have this coincidence, but we don't live in that world and since the 14,000 days isn't based on a particular calendar, but events of the nation of Israel, I don't think it matters.

When we get into details of the 70th week and exact day prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, then it's very much a strict 360-day year standard. 1260 days is not 3 1/2 years in a 365 day-year world.

Could this discrepancy tie into the 14400 vs 14000 difference noted by another poster above?

There may very well be another important time connected with 14400 days too. All I'm pointing out is the coincidence of the 14,000 days. There may be some significant event at 15,000 days too. All I know about with an origin straight from scripture though, is the 14,000 days. It is the exact period of time that Israel wandered the wilderness because they didn't have faith in God's provisions for them when confronted with taking the Promised Land. Just like Israel didn't have faith in God's provision when they took the Temple Mount.

At what point do we start and stop using the 360 day years with respect to prophetic events?

With the exact day prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, they are always 360-day years. Since the 14,000 days is based on a time period between two historical events, it's irrelevant how many days are in a year for that calculation. Since we only live in a 365-day year world, the 14,000 days would be added in that time-frame. That's how I understand it anyways. I hope that answered your question.

Edit: I just wanted to add that using the 14400 days from 6/7/67 brings us to 11/8/06.

I don't see any Jewish holidays on that date, does anyone know of any significance to this date?

[Triton57]

The antichrist reigns until Christ returns in glory and throws him in the lake of fire.

The anti-Christ reigns in name only because since the Christians have been Raptured and the Jew who fled are living safely in the mountains, there is no one left to persecute. Besides, the anti-Christ will be trying to save his own skin. The Bible says that the anti-Christ and false prophet will suffer along with everyone else during the Wrath of God.

I don't believe that there will will be none who choose to accept Christ's sacrifice after the rapture. The gospel is preached and the Bible says there are people who hold the testimony of Christ after the time of Jacob's trouble is over. (great tribulation)

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is after Israel is protected. Since he can't get Israel anymore, the dragon, through the antichrist, goes after the remnant of Israel who weren't in Judea and those who have the testimony of Christ. This is the final 1230 days of the beast's reign before Christ returns in glory to throw him in the lake of fire. It completes the 1260 days that the dragon gave power to the antichrist. Revelation 13:5

[Triton57]

Revelation 19:20 So subtract 1260 days from that point, and that is the point that the dragon gives the beast his power, at the AoD when Lucifer loses the war in heaven and is cast out and goes after the woman, who is Israel.

The AoD happens AFTER the anti-Christ has persecuted the Christian Gentiles for nearly 3½ years.

Based on your family revelation of the importance of the seals. What scripture connects the antichrist's persecution of the gentiles to the first 3 1/2 years? Because he goes forth conquering doesn't describe Christian persecution. That belief is based on the thought that who else would he be conquering?

What about the possibility that the antichrist, in order to get more followers, suppresses the Satanic anti-Semetic hatred of the Muslim nations long enough to lull Israel into a false peace that leads to the covenant with many that allows Israel to rebuild the temple so the antichrist can cause the abomination of desolation? He would be going forth to conquer after bringing forth a covenant he's forced to enforce to protect Israel and therefore trick them with the ultimate deception. Since Satan doesn't care about Muslims either, I'm sure he will get just as much pleasure out of their deaths too. Ultimately it is humanity that he hates, even the ones he's tricked into following him.

The only way a temple will be allowed is if Islam is smacked down at least temporarily. Self-sacrifice is almost the norm for them though, so I believe he will go forth conquering when he confirms the covenant with many, just not Christians...yet. That will come when he can no longer get the woman, Israel. Revelation 12:17

[Triton57]

The antichrist's reign with Lucifer's power starts at the AoD, imo, not the first seal.

I strongly disagree. The anti-Christ “goes forth conquering and to conquer” at the first seal. The Jews are at peace. Who and where will he conquer? The Christians in the Gentile nations!

How are the Jews going to be at peace with Islam attempting to kill them all? Only by someone smacking them down. If the Gog/Magog invasion happens before the covenant with many, or sometime after it, that would give the antichrist reason to stop them because he's trying to get Israel consolidated into one place to kill them all off easier, imo. Allowing Israel to rebuild their temple will have that effect, especially if Gog/Magog happens and Israel and the world see God's intervention on their behalf. Israel will think it's a new age dawning, but the restrainer will soon be removed and 2/3 of Israel will be cut off. Zechariah 13:8,9

[Triton57]

At that point, he's still wooing the world with his mad skills, but he's not given his power from the dragon until the dragon realizes he's been cast to the earth.

Again, I disagree. The anti-Christ is actually the devil in the flesh just as Jesus is God in the flesh.

My problem with this comes from my study into who the restrainer is and how that plays into the timing.

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This coincides with the great tribulation according to Matthew 24:15-22, a time of unparalleled trouble never to be repeated in history.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Here we have that same time of trouble, unparalleled equated to Israel. We also see Michael stand up. Then this trouble starts. This is exactly what happens when the restrainer stops restraining. The great tribulation starts. But why does Michael stand up? The answer lies in Revelation 12.

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Michael was on the earth restraining the revealing of the antichrist. Then, when he stands up, the antichrist is revealed. I believe this will cause zealous orthadox Jews to assassinate him (mortal headwound). Michael, having left to heaven to defeat Lucifer, will prevail with his angels and cast out Lucifer and his followers from heaven. Upon his arrival to earth, he uses the antichrist, bringing him back to life from the headwound and essentially indwelling him. They are of one mind and the dragon then goes after the woman until she's protected. He then goes after her seed and anyone holding the testimony of Christ.

In this way, the 3 1/2 years of the antichrist's power given to him by the dragon for 1260 days, Revelation 13:5, starts at the abomination of desolation and ends upon Christ's return in glory. That's how I see it anyways. I don't see how it all fits if the 3 1/2 years of persecution is all in the first half of the week. This limits salvation after the rapture, which I think is contrary to scripture since for the above reasons as well as the literal reading of Revelation 20:4,5 which places people in the first resurrection (that of the just) as a specific group who did not take the mark of the beast during the antichrist's reign. Also,

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is after the seventh trumpet and before the seven bowls. Either way, it's after the sixth seal...

No, the 6th Seal is the Rapture… not wrath or judgments. The 7th seal is the Wrath of God.

[Triton57]

The only problem is that Revelation 12 makes it clear that the dragon goes after the Jews in Judea first, and then turns his attention to the rest of the world only after Israel, the woman, is taken on wings of a great eagle and protected from the dragon for 1260 days.

No, the anti-Christ goes after the Christian Gentiles first for nearly 3½ years… then toward the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, he will break his covenant with Israel, set up the A0D in the temple and declare war on the Jews. Some Jews will flee to the wilderness as instructed by Jesus. The anti-Christ will destroy those who don’t flee. That’s what this Scripture is talking about.

I don't believe there is scriptural foundation for the belief that the antichrist goes after Christian Gentiles for the first 3 1/2 years. Satanic forces have been after us since Christ left and before. We're persecuted now, some much more than others like myself.

How did he get the covenant that brings Israel peace with Islam around? I think his conquering will be more geared towards that initially. Remember he's got to fool Israel into thinking he's a good guy. Going after Christians who are some of Israel's only supporters is not a good way to increase trust. However, going after the Muslim nations who are trying to wipe Israel out would be the perfect deception and will work like a charm, imo.

I believe the idea that the rapture is the end of the antichrist's reign is based on the assumption that if the saints are gone, then the antichrist can't persecute them anymore. Also on the idea that the first seal is the beginning of the antichrist's reign. However, at the fifth vial, the antichrist's kingdom is still apparently there.

Well, it’s not an assumption; it’s based on knowledge of the Scriptures and having an understanding of the Seven Seals. At the 5th Vial, the anti-Christ will still be living in Jerusalem and reigning, but in name only. He is suffering from God’s Wrath along with everyone else.

I think I've shown that there will be those having the testimony of Christ after Israel's persectution is over based on Revelation 12:17 taking place after the dragon can no longer get the woman, Israel. I've also shown the scriptures blessing those who die in the Lord from after the trumpets and before the bowls. I think these among others are a clear indication that there will be believers on the earth after Israel is protected and after the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th week.

[Triton57]

We also know that they're living in Jerusalem when the two witnesses are killed and they're killed by the beast from the bottomless pit. Revelation 11:7 This beast isn't released until the fifth trumpet, which has to be in the last 3 1/2 years sometime.

Where did you get this theology? The beast you are talking about is the anti-Christ which arises at the opening of the 1st seal, and also is the SAME beast arising out of the sea in Revelation 13:1.

Revelation 9:1-11 tells us of Abaddon, or Apollyon, who was locked in the bottomless pit until the fifth trumpet. Then a key unlocks the bottomless pit and he can then emerge. Then, in reference to the two witnesses...

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

[Triton57]

I'm not sure how you can determine the seventh seal is the wrath of God.

I thought this was elementary to most everyone. I think you’re the first person I have come across that said this.

During the Rapture (6th Seal) Revelation 6:16-17 says:

And (Gentle sinners) said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 7th Seal ushers in the Wrath of God. The ½ hour of silence in Heaven is the calm before the storm… The seven angels with trumpets, the seven vials, the seven thunders, the Battle of Armageddon… all are part of the 7th Seal.

I must be behind the curve then. Besides you're assuming that, what makes you believe the seventh seal lasts any longer than 1/2 hour? The only scriptural information on the seventh seal I've been able to find anywhere only says it's 1/2 hour of silence in heaven.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

I don't see anything here about when He opens the seventh seal that the next 3 1/2 years are the wrath of God or anything like that. All it says is that when the seventh seal is opened, there's silence in heaven for 1/2 hour. There's no link that I'm aware of to God's wrath except that it follows the seventh seal, which I agree with. However, the duration of the seventh seal is just as stated, 1/2 hour. Unless you have a scripture linking all of God's wrath to the seventh seal, I'm not going to assume the connection. I think the Bible makes it clear when we should take these things to be an extended period of time, like the seventh trumpet:

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Here the seventh trumpet lasts for days plural so we know it's an extended event. Also, since the mystery is finished, it must sound through the final bowls until Christ's return I would guess. I haven't tried to pin down exactly when the mystery would be finished because I haven't done a study to determine what the mystery is.

[Triton57]

All the Bible says as far as time goes for the seventh seal is 1/2 hour. It seems that you're assuming the seventh seal is 3 1/2 years instead of 1/2 hour as scripture would indicate. Then the focus goes to the trumpets and bowls. I believe this is the case because the scroll written on the inside and out and sealed with seven seals must have all the seals opened to open the scroll and read the judgments written on it from the beginning of the world. It proves that God is outside of time because His judgments are just. Christ is the only One who can break the seals to accomplish God's righteous judgment. That's how I see it anyways. If the Bible doesn't tell me the seven seals have to cover seven years, I don't want to assume they do.

To understand prophecy, you MUST… I said you MUST… I mean it’s absolutely IMPERATIVE that you understand the Seven Seals. If you don’t understand the Seven Seals, then you will NEVER, EVER understand prophecy, no matter how much you try.

I read what the Bible says about the seven seals, and I understand them.

I am very fortunate and humbled by having the Lord reveal the SECRETS that the Seven Seals contain. Most people don’t understand what I am about to say… but… most of the Book of Revelation… from chapters 8, verse 2 through chapter 19… is simply EXPLAINING events that happen at the opening of EACH SEAL. The Seven Sealed Book IS end time prophecy… It’s THE Book CONTAINING end time prophecy EVENTS. And Revelation is simply REVEALING the Seven Sealed Book of Prophecy and explaining what events happen at the opening of each seal. Revelation wasn’t named Revelation without any meaning. The word Revelation means “exposer”, “disclosure”, “understanding”, “revealed”, “eye-opener”, etc. So, WHY DON’T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND IT??? It’s because they DON’T understand the Seven Seals!!

They understand what the Bible says about the seven seals, they just don't hold the SECRET interpretation you have been priviledged to receive. As for me personally, I shy away from anyone's personal interpretation over a literal reading of the Bible itself always. I understand the seven seals according to scripture, not someone's interpretation of scripture. There is nothing about the seventh seal in the Bible that says it is the wrath of God. Just because God's wrath starts after it doesn't mean that the seventh seal continues on through God's wrath. In fact, there's even a specific time stamped onto the seventh seal and it's 1/2 hour.

[Triton57]

That's still built on assumption that the antichrist's reign starts at the first seal. I believe this 3 1/2 years marks the time that Satan is giving him power, which happens when Satan is cast to the earth when Michael and the angels cast him out. This is at the AoD because Michael stands up in Daniel 12:1, which is directly connected to Matthew 24:15-22 being a time of great trouble unlike any other in history.

Looks like you believe that the Wrath of God is the Great Tribulation. I pray that’s not the case.

It's not the case, the wrath of God is the wrath of God. We're not appointed to it, so it couldn't be the great tribulation because we will be here for that. The great tribulation starts when the dragon is cast to the earth and gives the antichrist his power. The persecution by the dragon for the duration of his stay on the earth is the great tribulation. It is caused by the dragon and felt by the saints.

The Great Tribulation on the Jews last only 4-6 weeks or so because it happens toward the end of the 5th Seal and just before the Rapture at the 6th Seal. By your time frame, you have the Great Tribulation spilling over into the Wrath of God time period, which is what a lot of people believe, but it’s not true.

It spills into the wrath of God time frame because the dragon is still going after the remnant of Israel's seed and those holding the testimony of Christ. Revelation 12:17 I agree that the rapture is around the sixth seal and the fifth seal is Israel's month or so of great tribulation. It is the dragon who spills his persecution into the rest of the world when the Jews in Judea are taken to safety in the wilderness.

[Triton57]

Do you believe that once the rapture happens that nobody can be saved anymore so therefore, there's no saints to persecute?

Yes… to teach otherwise is teaching a false doctrine and giving people false hope. THREE TIMES in Revelation, it says “MEN REPENTED NOT” during the Wrath of God. Also, the parable of the ten virgins is Biblical proof that no Gentile is saved after the Rapture.

There's no false hope in Christ. Regardless of when or how you die, if you're in Christ you're saved. That's how complete His provision is. Just because men didn't repent doesn't mean all men didn't repent. Let's examine what these three verses say:

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

If there are people not doing these works of their hands that require repenting, why would they repent in the first place? They don't need to repent because they didn't do anything. It's the ones who did the things with their hands that need to repent, and they don't. That doesn't mean that every man on the earth is doing things they shouldn't. Some will be following God's ways.

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Were all men scorched with fire? what about protected Israel? What about those who are blessed that die from henceforth after the seventh trumpet and before the bowls?

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The only people who got the sores in the first place were the seat of the beast and his kingdom. Since anyone with the mark of the beast cannot repent, it shouldn't suprise us. Men not repenting for their deeds is not an all-inclusive statement, imo.

As for the parable of the 10 virgins, that is the point of the rapture. Just because some are not taken as the bride, doesn't mean they are lost forever. They are not the bride nor can they ever be the bride of Christ, but they can still repent if they so desire. My guess is they probably won't because Christ says He never knew them. If that's from God's perspective, then we know they will not choose Him, but if it's from their perspective at that point in time, they can still make the choice to follow Christ. They will be saved, but won't be the bride of Christ.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To me, this is saying that anyone who comes to repentance won't perish. This includes those who repent during the 70th week of Daniel before death.

[Jerry]

Phillip wrote:

I don't believe that there will will be none who choose to accept Christ's sacrifice after the rapture. The gospel is preached and the Bible says there are people who hold the testimony of Christ after the time of Jacob's trouble is over. (great tribulation)

Revelation 12:17 wrote:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is after Israel is protected. Since he can't get Israel anymore, the dragon, through the antichrist, goes after the remnant of Israel who weren't in Judea and those who have the testimony of Christ. This is the final 1230 days of the beast's reign before Christ returns in glory to throw him in the lake of fire. It completes the 1260 days that the dragon gave power to the antichrist. Revelation 13:5

Phillip, these verses are talking about the Great Tribulation on the Jews. There will be some who flee to the wilderness. Those who don't flee will be destroyed by the anti-Christ.

Revelation is not written chronological. Revelation 12:17 occurs toward the end of the 5th Seal.

[Jerry]

Phillip wrote:

Based on your family revelation of the importance of the seals. What scripture connects the antichrist's persecution of the gentiles to the first 3 1/2 years? Because he goes forth conquering doesn't describe Christian persecution. That belief is based on the thought that who else would he be conquering?

Well, it IS based on Israel being at peace when the anti-Christ "goes forth conquering and to conquer" in the 1st Seal. It's also based on putting two and two together and also on a revelation by the Holy Spirit that says Matthew chapters 24 and 25 IS in chronological order.

Matthew 24:3-13 says:

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Now, this happens earlier than the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:21 and earlier than the Rapture in Matthew 24:29-31. Just because Jesus didn’t say it plainly, “Tribulation on the Gentiles begins here”, people THINK that Gentiles will escape out of the tribulation. But, unfortunately, that’s not the case. The Christian Gentiles will be the focus of the anti-Christ’s persecution first for nearly 3 ½ years. Then, toward the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, he will break his covenant with Israel, set up the AoD in the temple and declare war on the Jews.

[Jerry]

Phillip wrote:

…the 3 1/2 years of the antichrist's power given to him by the dragon for 1260 days,…

Yes, the 3½ year period that consists of the 1st half of Daniel’s 70th week and also the first 5 seals.

Revelation 13:5, starts at the abomination of desolation and ends upon Christ's return in glory. That's how I see it anyways.

Revelation 13:1-5 is simply giving more information about the 1st seal, when the anti-Christ arises… but the AoD occurs nearly 3½ years later. By the way, the anti-Christ and the beast arising out of the sea is the SAME person.

I don't see how it all fits if the 3 1/2 years of persecution is all in the first half of the week. This limits salvation after the rapture, which I think is contrary to scripture…

Salvation is definitely limited after the Rapture because the chances for the Gentiles are ZERO. Every Gentile left behind after the Rapture is lost, and doomed to hell for eternity. Sorry to be so blunt for I’ve proven this several times with Scriptures. There is absolutely, positively, NO Scripture that says any Gentile is saved after the Rapture!

…literal reading of Revelation 20:4,5 which places people in the first resurrection (that of the just) as a specific group who did not take the mark of the beast during the antichrist's reign.

This verse is talking about those who were resurrected at the Rapture! I can’t count the number of people who think there is going to be another resurrection when Jesus comes at the Battle of Armageddon.

The angel talking to the apostle John is simply explaining who these people are that John saw. The angel says these are those who were in the first resurrection (back at the Rapture) and there is no other resurrection until after the Millennium Reign. Why make prophecy so hard when it’s SO EASY to understand!!

[Jerry]

Phillip wrote:

Revelation 9:1-11 tells us of Abaddon, or Apollyon, who was locked in the bottomless pit until the fifth trumpet. Then a key unlocks the bottomless pit and he can then emerge.

My King James Bible does NOT say that the key unlocks Apollyon… it unlocks billions of demonic locusts that sting like scorpions. Then, the Bible says that they have a king over them. Now, this king is defined in Strong’s Greek Dictionary as satan… I think I said this was the anti-Christ in an earlier post, but let me stand corrected.

The anti-Christ is suffering from the plagues of the Wrath of God and also from plagues that the two witnesses bring. So it looks like the devil himself will arise out of the bottomless pit to kill these two witnesses.

[Jerry]

Phillip wrote:

Besides you're assuming that, what makes you believe the seventh seal lasts any longer than 1/2 hour? The only scriptural information on the seventh seal I've been able to find anywhere only says it's 1/2 hour of silence in heaven.

Phillip, I don’t expect you to believe me and I don't expect anyone else to believe me either. BUT... when the Holy Spirit revealed the Seven Seals to my dad, the 7th Seal was explained as the Wrath of God. And knowing that the Jews who flee into the wilderness will be nourished and protected by God for 3 ½ years, that let’s me know the Wrath of God time period will be 3½ years long. This is based on knowing that the anti-Christ’s reign is 3½ years long…begins at the 1st seal… ends at the 6th seal…so, 3 ½ years of AC reign + 3 ½ years of God’s Wrath = 7 years… meaning that the Seven Seals comprise a time period of 7 years which is the SAME 7 year period known as Daniel’s 70th week and which was another revelation revealed by the Holy Spirit. But of course, I don’t believe anybody to believe little ole me, and besides… why should it matter if the 7th seal is one minute long or 10,000 years long, Christians will not be around to endure it.

[Jerry]

Jerry wrote:

The Great Tribulation on the Jews last only 4-6 weeks or so because it happens toward the end of the 5th Seal and just before the Rapture at the 6th Seal. By your time frame, you have the Great Tribulation spilling over into the Wrath of God time period, which is what a lot of people believe, but it’s not true.

It spills into the wrath of God time frame because the dragon is still going after the remnant of Israel's seed and those holding the testimony of Christ. Revelation 12:17 I agree that the rapture is around the sixth seal and the fifth seal is Israel's month or so of great tribulation. It is the dragon who spills his persecution into the rest of the world when the Jews in Judea are taken to safety in the wilderness.

Phillip, the AC's reign is 42 months or 3½ years long and his time was up at the Rapture. During the Wrath of God time period, it is GOD… NOT the anti-Christ who is in control of events. The anti-Christ is suffering from the plagues from God along with everyone else.

The tribulation on the rest of the world occurs first, before the Great Tribulation on the Jews and begins nearly 3½ years earlier.

[Jerry]

Phillip wrote:

There's no false hope in Christ. Regardless of when or how you die, if you're in Christ you're saved. That's how complete His provision is. Just because men didn't repent doesn't mean all men didn't repent.

2 Peter 3:9 wrote:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

To me, this is saying that anyone who comes to repentance won't perish. This includes those who repent during the 70th week of Daniel before death.

I didn't make the rules... GOD DID. The Bible makes it CLEAR that no Gentile is saved after the Rapture. To teach otherwise is actually teaching heresy.

The parable of the ten virgins is absolute Biblical proof that the Rapture is the DOOR to God’s Grace. Once the door has been shut, NO one can enter in.

Also, when Jesus talked about the days of Noah in Matthew, people think Jesus was saying that business would be as usual until the Rapture. But, the MAIN POINT Jesus was making was, the flood came and DESTOYED THEM ALL!! When fire and brimstone rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah, it DESTROYED THEM ALL!! Likewise, so shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed from Heaven!

[hirutbuddy]

read jn3:16 by the way, the angel of God in Revelation is preaching the everlasting Gospel to the nations so people can continue to be saved. why would the angel preach the Gospel during the great tribulation if no one is going to get saved after the rapture. Where is your scriptural support for this. God said whom so calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. You are preaching false, false docturne.

[Jerry]

hirutbuddy wrote:

read jn3:16 by the way, the angel of God in Revelation is preaching the everlasting Gospel to the nations so people can continue to be saved. why would the angel preach the Gospel during the great tribulation if no one is going to get saved after the rapture. Where is your scriptural support for this. God said whom so calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. You are preaching false, false docturne.

No, I'm teaching the truth... you just have your time frames and events out of order. The angel preaching the Gospel during the tribulation is BEFORE the Rapture. I think that YOU THINK that the Wrath of God and the Tribulation is the same event... which is absolutely NOT... they are TWO separate events. Many people make this mistake. That's why people THINK they can be saved after the Rapture. They don’t understand the differences between the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God.

[Triton57]

Phillip wrote:

I don't believe that there will will be none who choose to accept Christ's sacrifice after the rapture. The gospel is preached and the Bible says there are people who hold the testimony of Christ after the time of Jacob's trouble is over. (great tribulation)

Revelation 12:17 wrote:
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is after Israel is protected. Since he can't get Israel anymore, the dragon, through the antichrist, goes after the remnant of Israel who weren't in Judea and those who have the testimony of Christ. This is the final 1230 days of the beast's reign before Christ returns in glory to throw him in the lake of fire. It completes the 1260 days that the dragon gave power to the antichrist. Revelation 13:5

Phillip, these verses are talking about the Great Tribulation on the Jews. There will be some who flee to the wilderness. Those who don't flee will be destroyed by the anti-Christ.

Revelation is not written chronological. Revelation 12:17 occurs toward the end of the 5th Seal.

It occurs after Israel is taken into the wilderness and I agree this is around the end of the fifth seal. That's where Revelation 12 ends, just before the sixth seal at the end of the Jewish tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble. Revelation 12:17 is the transition of the antichrist's focus on the Jews to making war with Christians and the woman's seed.

Then how was that persecution of those that hold the testimony of Christ before during the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd seals if it comes after the 5th? You say the 3 1/2 years of Christian great tribulation is at the first seal right?

Now you could say technically that this is all before the sixth seal, which is the rapture, but I'd like to remind you that there are Christians (not the bride of Christ, but accepting Christ's sacrifice and therefore saved) in the final 3 1/2 years.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is before the bowls and after the trumpets. Those who die in the Lord through this are blessed. They are not the bride of Christ, but they are justified through Him and will participate in the resurrection of the just after Christ returns in glory and Satan is bound. Revelation 20:4,5

This isn't a doctrine, it's believing that the Lord will save anyone who comes to Him with a heart of repentance. This isn't supposed to get people to slack off because they still have a chance after the rapture. Nobody in their right mind would want to miss the rapture and remain on the earth through God's wrath because they're not done messing around down here. That would show a complete lack of desire to be with Christ in the first place. My belief in salvation after the rapture is not based on wishful thinking for those left behind, but belief that salvation is through Christ not the church. I think the Bible sufficiently places some just as living through this last 3 1/2 year period and even though the church won't be here for this time, Christ's sacrifice for the repentant will be.

[Triton57]

It is during the seventh trumpet...

First we see the harvest of wheat (rapture)
Followed immediately by the harvest of the grapes of wrath (clue)
Followed immediately by the seven bowls which are declared to be the "undiluted anger/wrath of God"

IMO God clearly shows us in scripture when he declares his wrath.

The question now is are the seals, trumpets, thunders and bowls sequential or consecutive in some kind of simultaneous execution. I have seen arguments to show consecutive running but have never been fully convinced of this because of subtle differences in desriptions of judgements that look like they could possibly be the same one.

I believe the seals are all finished before any trumpets or bowls start because of Revelation 8:1,2. The angels aren't given their trumpets until after the seals are all opened.

As for the trumpet/bowl relationship, Revelation 15:1 says that in the bowls are filled up G5055 the wrath of God. This means the wrath of God is concluded or completed in these seven bowls. This means they aren't the complete wrath of God, but it is the completion of His wrath. Therefore, the trumpets are the beginning of God's wrath that is filled up in the seven bowls. I believe they are sequential to a point. The seventh trumpet is sounded over a period of days and when it is done sounding, the seventh bowl will be poured out and Christ will return when petitioned by Israel.

[prophecyrocks]

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

"Wonder" is also interpreted as sign. The identity of this woman is interpreted from scripture itself, Genesis 37:9-11. Believe it or not, there was a sign in the heavens on the very day of Rosh Hashanah, and it looked something like this:



Coincidence? I'll let you be the judge.

1.) If you are going to use Rev 12:1 as a "physical" sign in the the heavens, then you should use Rev 12:3 as well. Seems like they coincide with each other.

Rev 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

Did we see the sign spoken of in Rev 12:3 around Oct 5, 2005 in the skies as well ?

2.) Is the woman in Rev 12:1 the same woman who fled into the wilderness in Rev 12:6 ?

[Triton57]

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

"Wonder" is also interpreted as sign. The identity of this woman is interpreted from scripture itself, Genesis 37:9-11. Believe it or not, there was a sign in the heavens on the very day of Rosh Hashanah, and it looked something like this:



Coincidence? I'll let you be the judge.

1.) If you are going to use Rev 12:1 as a "physical" sign in the the heavens, then you should use Rev 12:3 as well. Seems like they coincide with each other.

Rev 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

Did we see the sign spoken of in Rev 12:3 around Oct 5, 2005 in the skies as well ?

Did you notice Serpens up above Virgo?

In the Book of Revelation there are several monsters or dragons described. The Greek New Testament uses drakon 12 times only in the book of Revelation which the KJV translates as "dragon" (Rev. 12-13, 16:13, 20:2). There is an interesting book recently published by Fortress press entitled Social-Science Commentary on the Book of Revelation by Bruce Malina and John Pilch that relates much of the vivid description in Revelation to constellations in the sky. They believe that the Book of Revelation is an astral prophecy.

There is a red dragon in Revelation 12:1-18. Boll believes that the dragon corresponds best with the constellation Hydra which extends through one third of the zodiac. Just above the Hydra are the constellations Corax with 7 stars corresponding to 7 heads, and Crater with 10 stars corresponding to 10 horns, or 10 dorsal fins. Another possibility is the ancient constellation of Scorpio (Malina and Pilch, 2000 p.165).

On today's star charts I think the dragon (which means serpent) should be identified with the constellation Serpens (Caput and Cauda connected with ten stars). The seven heads would be the constellation Corona (crown) Borealis which consists of 7 stars. This serpent is right at the feet of the constellation Virgo and Hercules. The Archangel Michael would be the constellation Hercules waiting to make war with the serpent (Rev. 12:7).

The woman of Revelation 12 should be identified with the constellation Virgo. The woman is Mary who gives birth to Jesus. The 12 stars represents the 12 tribes of Israel. The 13 stars of the constellation Virgo may represent the 12 tribes plus Christ (the bright star Spica?). Another possibility is that the constellation Bootes represents the baby Jesus, and Mary's crown is the Big Dipper plus Canes Venatici.