Do we go to heaven when we die?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Do we go to heaven when we die?

Postby crmann on Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:51 am

Do we go to heaven when we die?

I have been doing much Bible reading on this lately. The more I study, the stronger my belief becomes.

I want to leave this question open ended so that I can get other's input.

Cleveland

And, the truth here ties in with many other beliefs Christians have today.
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Postby Passion on Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:16 pm

Yes, indeed! In II Corinthians 5 Paul refers to our bodies as earthly "tents" which are our houses, and that when our our "houses" are torn down, we have a "building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." (II Cor. 5:1) He goes on in vs. 6 to say that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, but in vs. 8 he says "absent from the body and to be present with the Lord".

So when our earthly bodies die, our spirits immediately go to be with the Lord in heaven; then at the rapture the dead in Christ will be resurrected first (these are the ones he refers to as being "asleep"), then those who are alive (and also in Christ) will be caught up as well:

I Thess. 13: "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15: For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16: For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17: Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Keep reading you Bible, praying, and asking God to reveal Himself and His truth through His Word! :blessyou:
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:10 pm

The quoted passage says that we will 'be with the Lord', to add "in heaven" is an assumption methinks.
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Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
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Postby David L on Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:15 pm

^^

I have to agree with the above statement.


And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43


For the sake of keeping the pattern above I would say "be with the Lord" in "Paradise" whatever that could possible mean. I certainly will not engage a discussion on what Paradise could be because quite frankly I haven't seen it, yet.

So to answer the question stated in the OP I would say NO. We follow the thief into Paradise.
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:20 pm

IIRC, Paradise is also called "Abraham's Bosom" (as per the story of Lazarus and the rich man) from which you can see the fires of Hell. Really, this would make sense as to why the New Testament writers say "hades" instead of "sheol" (the grave) as in the OT as the Hades of Greek mythology is a twofold locale - having both a place of punishment for the evil and a paradise for the 'good' people.
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Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
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Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
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Postby Passion on Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:41 pm

Okay, but what about II Cor. 5:1, where it says in the heavens?

BTW, Bob, good to see you back! How did your move back home (was it ND?) go?
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Postby Calvin and Hobbs on Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:19 pm

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So I believe during the church age those saved do go to heaven


I believe the unsaved sleep until Judgement day.

I May have read that those that are saved that die during great tribulation have to wait until Christ return to be raptured.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet, the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Unless it is talking about getting our new resurected bodies?

I havent done a real good study on it.

Good luck with your studies crmann..
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Postby crmann on Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:17 pm

What did Christ say about heaven?

He said, “And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13).
Take this verse for exactly what He said, neither adding to nor taking from it. He said, “NO MAN” (not a single one) has gone to heaven!
Jesus never told anyone they were going to heaven.

Now think of all God’s servants who had lived during the 4,000 years prior to Christ’s statement. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and many more. Nowhere will we find a scripture saying they went to heaven.

If heaven is the reward of the saved, then none of these men made it. They all must have FAILED! Every one of them missed out on salvation. But, of course, they did not fail. Heaven is not the reward of the saved—inheriting rulership over earth is our reward.

Notice that verse 13 of John 3 comes only three verses prior to the most universally quoted passage in the Bible—John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Why is it that almost everyone is willing to believe John 3:16 while virtually no one believes what is said just three verses earlier? And those who insist that we go to heaven when we die will twist John 3:13 to mean something else.

Now ask: If all the above men are not in heaven, where are they? They are in the grave asleep. Read the new testament and count how many times Jesus said of those who were dead that they were asleep. They went to be with their fathers.

Now let us look at a scripture that has been quoted to support that we go to heaven when we die, using The Amplified Bible.  

2 Corinthians 5:1
FOR WE know that if the tent which is our earthly home is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
 
5:2
Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling,
 
5:3
So that by putting it on we may not be found naked (without a body).
 
5:4
For while we are still in this tent, we groan under the burden and sigh deeply (weighed down, depressed, oppressed)--not that we want to put off the body (the clothing of the spirit), but rather that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal (our dying body) may be swallowed up by life [ R1 after the resurrection].
 
5:5
Now He Who has fashioned us [preparing and making us fit] for this very thing is God, Who also has given us the [Holy] Spirit as a guarantee [of the fulfillment of His promise].
 

5:6
So then, we are always full of good and hopeful and confident courage; we know that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the home with the Lord [that is promised us].

5:7
For we walk by faith [we] regulate our lives and conduct ourselves by our conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, with trust and holy fervor; thus we walk] not by sight or appearance.

5:8
[Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.

There is nothing in these verses which speak of going to heaven. Ninety nine point nine percent of today’s Christians believe they go straight to heaven when they die, yet if a careful study of the old and new testament reveals this is not so.

God created the earth for mankind, and He has not changed His mind. We are told we will live for an eternity on a new earth. Heaven is the abode of God and the heavenly host, no human will ever go there. John 3:13 tells us that no man has ever gone to heaven but Christ Jesus. There is not a single verse of scripture that says we go to heaven when we die.

Now on the preceding verses:

What Paul means, in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8, is that when we leave this body we also leave time. Our problem comes because we do not do that in our thinking. We project time into eternity and say it is the same thing going on forever, but it is not. Anyone who studies carefully in this area has to distinguish sharply between the conditions of eternity and those of time. The characteristic of time is that we are all locked into the same rigid sequence of events. We all experience 24-hour days because on this earth it takes that long for the earth to rotate on its axis and nobody can speed it up. Some of you cannot by choice live 12 hour days while the rest of us have to make out with 24.

But in eternity there is no past or future, there is simply one great present moment. Therefore, the events we experience in eternity are never anything we have to wait for, they are always what we are ready for, what we are spiritually prepared for. This passage says that God has been spiritually preparing us for something, and that event is the coming of the Lord for his own, the return of Christ for his church, for each individual believer. Therefore, the Scriptures clearly teach that when a believer dies, what he experiences immediately is the coming of the Lord for his own. Paul describes that event in First Thessalonians 4, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God," {1 Thessalonians 4:16a KJV}. The dead in Christ will be raised first, then we who are left on earth will be raised with them all together to meet the Lord in the air, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord," {1 Th 4:17b KJV}. This is the experience that awaits us immediately.

What did Martha say about Lazarus when Jesus came up and her brother was already dead? Jesus told her she would see Lazarus again, and her response was, Yes, Lord, I will see him at the resurrection. Now then, did Jesus correct her and say to her that she would see Lazarus in heaven? No.

*********************************

Tomorrow, I will address Jesus telling the thief on the cross next to him that the thief would be with him in paradise.

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Postby David L on Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:51 pm

This thread is getting good really fast... I love the direction it's heading.
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Postby ozell on Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:56 pm

Hi crmann

Jesus said this

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

should we ignore Jesus words or investigate Pauls words. Remember what Peter said concerning Pauls writings.

2Pt 3: 15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live,and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While you are still alive there is still hope. What hope is this? Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: This is what you hope for while you are still alive. Notice something else, Solomon said. For a living dog is better than a dead lion. Why is that? The dog is alive and the lion is dust. Can a dead lion be of any use? No! Solomon said a mouth full, look at the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.


Ecclesiastes 9:6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for ther is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.

If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave,

David said this

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

David clarifies this even further in the 88th Psalm.

Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

What did he call the grave? The land of forgetfulness. So far the Bible is consistent.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Was that hard to understand? No. If you are dead you have no wisdom , no knowledge, no memory who can you praise? No one. Here is another Psalm.

Psalm 115:17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

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Postby crmann on Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:40 am

Thank Ozell.

Hey, where've you been lately?

Yes, those who insist on saying we go to heaven forget about what we are told in the old testament.

I can think of not one time where Jesus told his disciples he would see them in heaven. This is a belief that started with the pagan belief of the Zoroastrians when the Israelites were in Babylon.

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Postby Rte66 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:08 am

Jhn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.


Please explain these verses to me in light of the present discussion. ..Thanks

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Postby Seeker on Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:12 am

Hi crmann,

Now think of all God’s servants who had lived during the 4,000 years prior to Christ’s statement. Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and many more. Nowhere will we find a scripture saying they went to heaven.


Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luk 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.


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Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:24 pm

Passion wrote:Okay, but what about II Cor. 5:1, where it says in the heavens?

BTW, Bob, good to see you back! How did your move back home (was it ND?) go?


When we nowadays say "in the heavens" don't we mean "the sky"? Just because the word 'heavens' is used in that passage doesn't necessarily mean that Paul is talking about the place wherein God's throne is presently located.

Thanks for asking about the move. We haven't made the move back home yet, that will be in the second week of January. Could I ask you to pray for that to go well? :grin:
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
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Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.
-Thomas Jefferson

Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
-Thomas Jefferson
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Postby AndCanItBe on Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:30 pm

:praying:
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Postby proparent on Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:25 pm

You got it Bob!! :praying: :praying:

Love, In Christ,
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Postby crmann on Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:25 pm

Me too, Bob!! :praying: . :praying: . :praying:
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Postby crmann on Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:29 pm

Hi Seeker:

From the Amplified Bible

Luke 20:37
But that the dead are raised [ R17 from death]--even Moses made known and showed in the passage concerning the [burning] bush, where he calls the Lord, The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38
Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to Him all men are alive [whether in the body or out of it] and they are alive [not dead] unto Him [in definite relationship to Him].


Seeker, as to Luke 20:37:38

In verse 37, the Sadducees were quoting Moses to entangle Jesus. Remember that the Sadducees denied the resurrection.

Verse 38. He is not a God of the dead, or, there is no God of the dead -That is, the term God implies such a relation, as cannot possibly subsist between him and the dead; who in the Sadducees' sense are extinguished spirits; who could neither worship him, nor receive good from him. So that all live to him - All who have him for their God, will live and enjoy him. This sentence is not an argument for what went before; but the proposition which was to be proved in the resurrection.

For as all the faithful are the children of Abraham, and the Divine promise of being a God to him and his seed is promised them, it implies their continued existence and happiness in a future state as much as Abraham's. And as the body is an essential part of man, it implies both his resurrection and theirs; and so overthrows the entire scheme of the Sadducean doctrine.

To God, no human being is dead, or ever will be; but all sustain an abiding conscious relation to Him. But the "all" here meant "those who shall be counted worthy to obtain that world." These sustain a gracious covenant relation to God, which cannot be dissolved. In this sense our Lord affirms that for Moses to call the Lord the "God" of His patriarchal servants if at that moment they had no existence, would be unworthy of Him. He "would be ashamed to be called their God, if He had not prepared for them a city" (Hebrews 11:16). How precious are these glimpses of the resurrection state!

These verses have nothing to do with heaven, but the resurrection of the just. And, Christ will bring that city down from heaven to earth in due time.

Cleveland,
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Postby Passion on Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:02 pm

:praying: that your move goes well--and safely!
"But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation. My God will hear me. Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the Lord is a light for me."

--Mica 7:7-8


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Postby Finaldash on Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Cleveland,
Have you bought the book "Heaven" yet? I'm only on the 17th page, but Heaven for Alcorn(author) is definitely the New Jerusalem on Earth. I am starting to be convince also from reading the book and what has been covered here so far.
As for the asleep part I'll find out if he'll cover it. This will be a headache for me since my in-laws are Seventh Day Adventist and I have been trying to cover the whole sleeping thing with my wife and how the bible says we are judged immediately after death and we are not literally just "waiting asleep".
SDA's do believe in the sleeping "scenario". I do understand that sleeping from what you are trying to share, has no concept of time. After we die we awake immediately for the resurrection. Am I right?

That's what I love about Christianity is that we cannot have total ownership of the Truth. That's why we have the Holy Spirit teaching us as we come closer to the end.

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Postby Rte66 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:24 pm

A couple more questions that I would be interested in hearing comments about regarding this issue of not going to heaven upon death. ..



Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.

Enoch did not die. ..where is he?

Elijah went up in a chariot, too. ..

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
Luk 9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

So where do you think that Moses and Elias went after this?

Thank you,

Angie
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Postby Finaldash on Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:17 pm

How about the martyrs underneath the throne in Revelation?
How about the people in white robes that immediately appeared before John?
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Postby crmann on Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:43 pm

David asked:

After we die we awake immediately for the resurrection. Am I right?


Yes, this is what I am saying.

My, I cannot keep up with all the questions here. And, I am in the middle of a torentual downpour and I keep losing my satelite connection which is really annoying.

No David, I haven't purchased the book, "Heaven" yet. Actually I am kind of waiting to see what those who read it have to say about it. If I will help me explain more about what we have been discussing here, then I will add it to my library. So if you would, when you finish it, let me know if you think it is worthwhile.

Blessings,

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Postby crmann on Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:32 pm

Hi Angie....

Let's look at Hebrews 11, and learn about Elijah and Enoch.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Please note that verse thirteen refers to all those named in verses 4 through 13, and says that these all died. I can further share more on the death of Enoch if you like, but this was the easiest.


14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. 29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. 32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, JephthahGideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.

Notice in verse thirty-two it mentions the prophets, (plural). Elijah was one of the prophets. Now if you like I can show more proof that Elijah was alive and on earth twelve years after he was caught up into the heavens.

36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, F28 they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Does this answer your question about Elijah and Enoch, Angie? If not I can provide more biblical proof.

Cleveland
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Postby Rte66 on Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:44 pm

Thank you crmann,

Take your time.

I will do some reading on Hebrews and give it some thought. I do have one question about that passage for now. .. what about this part? ..

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death,

When you have time I'm interested in what you have to say about the verse in John, I posted above. .."I go to prepare a place for you? ". ..

Thanks again,
Angie
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Postby ozell on Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:27 pm

Hi Angie

Jhn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.


Lets take it verse by verse.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jesus said in his Fathers house are many mansion.
Jesus did not say his house.
He said he go to prepare a place for you.

Where is the Father's house? Revelation 21v1-27
This is the Father's house and the amny mansion coming down out of heaven

Rv 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Where is Jesus house? Revelation20v1-6 This is Jesus House his 1000 year reign.

Rv 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


when did Jesus go to prepare the place? after Jesus resurrection he went to sit down at the right hand of the Father.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.


Jesus said he will come again
where he is we will be.

when will Jesus come?

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Where will Jesus be?

Ps 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

Ps 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

where will we be?

Rv 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Jesus will rule this earth fro 1000 years and we will help him.

The Father's Kingdom New Jerusalem will come afterwards this is the place that Jesus went to prepare

it all takes place on this earth.
amen

say the beginning of the Lords prayer and you will understand even more

ozell
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Postby Rte66 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:31 am

Interesting. ...

Thanks Ozell! for going to the trouble.

So, Jesus is helping to prepare the New Jerusalem, aka God's mansion with many houses. Before the New jerusalem appears though we have a 1000 year reign with Christ on the present earth. I'm okay with that so far. But where are we in the meantime? ..all those saints that have gone before us? At the present I think there is a separation of the soul from the body. Where does the soul of the dead saints go until that day when Jesus reappears and calls us all? What about those saints under the altar? Where is that altar? Crmann probably addressed this somewhere above. I will have to go back and find it.

I appreciate your time. I can't say I can particpate much longer in this discussion as school is starting up again.

Another question. ..God creates a new earth, after the 1000 year reign if I understand correctly (with a literal perspective), presumably because the present earth has been ravaged with sin all this time? Correct me of I am wrong. Just out of curiosity, why do you think God creates a new heaven?

Angie
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Postby Rte66 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:43 am

I went back and was reading a few of the firsts posts more clearly. Passion brought up the verse, "to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord". By Lord we mean Jesus Christ, correct? If so, isn't Christ at the right hand of God? So wouldn't that place us there as well?

Thanks,
Bless you all!
Angie
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Postby ozell on Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:53 am

Hi Crmann

If I can I would like to give you a little help.

DEATH AND RESURRECTION: Spiritually and Physically.

Death and resurrection, spiritually and physically. What does this statement mean? There are a few things we must find out. When a person dies, does he or she have any conscienceness? Does a puff of smoke leave their body and go flying off into the third heaven? Do they just float around the earth hunting houses, jumping from behind trees scaring people? If you have a logical bone in your body you know that is sheer nonsense. It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true"(John 8:17). We will quote testimonies from the Prophets and the Apostle. Who gave them the word? (Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.) They received the law by the disposition of angels. Where did the angels get the word? (Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:) The angels got it from the Lord. The Lord got it from the Father. The Prophets and the Apostle are simply quoting the Lord. If you don't believe them, you don't believe the Lord. Our first witness is Solomon. He is very wise, as a matter of fact he was wiser than any man that walked the earth. Why? I Kings 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment. I Kings 4:1 So king Solomon was king over all Israel. He had the wisdom of God. Let' see what Solomon has to say about this subject.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live,and after that they go to the dead.

Take a look at what Solomon said. This event happened to us all while we are under the sun. Why did he say under the sun? We'll find this out later. Pay close attention here. The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live. While they live. Then what happens after that? They go to the dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While you are still alive there is still hope. What hope is this? Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: This is what you hope for while you are still alive. Notice something else, Solomon said. For a living dog is better than a dead lion. Why is that? The dog is alive and the lion is dust. Can a dead lion be of any use? No! Solomon said a mouth full, look at the next verse.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

For the living know not any thing, neither any more reward. Why? Once you're dead there is no more hope. If you went to the grave in Christ, he will awake you in the first resurrection, and you will live and reign on the earth with him and the saints. If you did not die in Christ he will wake you in the second resurrection and you will be judged according to your works. If you are dead do you have any memory? What did Solomon say? "For the memory of them is forgotten". Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.

Ecclesiastes 9:6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This verse speaks for itself. To put it short you don't remember anything while you are in the grave. Why does he continue to say "under the sun"? He's said it twice. We will find out a little later.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for ther is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest.

If there is no work, no device, no knowledge, no wisdom, in the grave, why does

the status quo say there are spirits that walk the earth? They have no knowledge of the Word of God. There are spirits that walk the earth, but they are not dead people. They are fallen angels. We will see an example of one later. In short, the dead don't know anything.

Let's find another witness. The Lord said that David was a man after His own heart. David should know about this subject. Let's see if David and Solomon are on the same page.

Psalms 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help". Why did David make this statement in verse 3? No man can give you eternal life, neither does any man have a lake of fire to put you in. Whom shall you put all your trust? Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. How do you lean on the Lord's understanding and not your own? By reading the book without putting a twist on it and taking every word for what it says, you will never go wrong. Why should you do that? Pay close attention. Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If his thoughts are higher than ours, why should anyone try to interpret His Word. Seems like David and Solomon are on the same page. Look at verse 4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. His thoughts perish when he gives up his last breath. Man is made of 2 elements dust, and breath, no more, no less. Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. When David said he gives up the ghost he simply means his breath. David clarifies this even further in the 88th Psalm.
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

What did he call the grave? The land of forgetfulness. So far the Bible is consistent.

Let's check out a few more Psalm.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Was that hard to understand? No. If you are dead you have no wisdom , no knowledge, no memory who can you praise? No one. Here is another Psalm.

Psalm 115:17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

This verse clarifies the 6th Psalm. David and Solomon are consistent. Let's go to another Prophet, the Prophet Isaiah and see what he has to say about this subject.

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

19The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

The Prophet Isaiah confirmed what David and Solomon said. "For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth". Does anything else need to be said? This is very clear. Look at verse 19. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. While you are alive you can praise the Lord. Lets go to the Prophet Job and see if he knows anything about this subject.

Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.

Remember what Solomon said? Let's take another look. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Job said basically, "Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble". Each day you walk with God there is a war going on within your mind. Trying your best to keep this flesh body under control, trying to walk in the Lord's law, that is the trouble you encounter. If some one says it is easy that's a lie. You must walk in his power (His Word), to stay strong. You have a powerful adversary, and who is that? Yourself. Pay close attention!

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

What does Job mean by this statement, "Till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Let's take a look at this for a moment. Listen carefully to Peter. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Look at the statement Peter made, "in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise". If the "heavens" shall pass away, going to the third heaven is a myth. Peter says it again. II Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?. When David said, "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep", he knew exactly what he

was talking about. Notice something else, "they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep". When will they awake? I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. At the last trump the dead or those asleep shall be raised. Look like the Prophets and the Apostles are consistent. We move to the book of Revelation. This set of verses may sound contradictory, and if they are, we might as well throw the Bible out the back door. So far we have found out that the dead are still in the grave, they have no thoughts, no wisdom and knowledge. We also found that the heavens will be no more. Pay very close attention to John, he's letting you know something very important. Once you understand what he is saying there is no contradiction.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Look at what John said, "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God. These people must be in heaven, right? (Next verse)

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

They were talking to the Lord. (Next verse)

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These people were told by the Lord, rest a little season. They must be in heaven? (Next)

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Notice something, The sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together. This is the same thing David, Paul, and now John said. This must be true. What about the souls under the altar? Let's see if we can find an example. Pay close attention here.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. Cain didn't bring the best that he had, if he did the Lord would have accepted Cain's offering.

Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Notice something, If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted. Remember the people in Revelation.Did they do well? Were they accepted? Yes. Now look at what the Lord says here.

Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

What did the Lord say in verse 7? "If thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. Cain committed 2 sins, murder and baring false wittiness. These verses alone let you know that the law was in effect from the beginning. Notice this in the next verse.

Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

When is the last time you heard someone's blood cry? Blood doesn't cry. It wasn't the blood that was crying, it was Abel's righteous acts. Notice this in Revelation. , I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: These people were slain for the word of God, and the testimony that they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Notice it said our blood. Here is the key. What were these people given for their testimony?

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They were given white robes. What does this mean? Let's let the Book tell us.

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

You see it was their righteousness that cried unto the Lord . Look what Paul said.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

That was your second witness. Here is another example.

Proverbs 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.

31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

Let her own works praise her. By your actions you will obtain eternal life.

In Luke, the Scribes came to Jesus trying to trip Him up, by asking Him a question. Custom was that if a man die before he had an offspring, his brother would marry his wife and the first born would carry on his brother's name. They gave Jesus an example of a woman that married seven brothers, the first to the last did not have an offspring and finally the woman died. They asked Jesus who would be this woman's husband in the resurrection. Notice what the Lord said here.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Look at verse 35, But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. He said again as Paul, and John said. Those that are accounted worthy to obtain the world. It goes back to the righteous acts. Notice verse 36,"Now that the dead are raised". The subject is the resurrection, he was giving them and example.

This is a place where people try to say, "see I told you when you die you float off into heaven".They make this statement without thinking. Why? If a person dies and goes to heaven or hell what is the use for the first or second resurrection, if that statement was true they have all ready been raised and judged. It would be no use for either of these. Read this carefully.

I Samuel 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

What is a familiar spirit?

I Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

Why did she "say bring up?" Samuel was a righteous guy, shouldn't she have said, Whom should I bring down?

I Samuel 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Notice what she said, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. Shouldn'tthey be coming down form heaven?

I Samuel 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceivedthat it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

If the Lord would not answer Saul why would Samuel?

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Was this actually Samuel speaking to Saul through this witch? Once again let's let the Bible speak for itself.

I Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;

You see, the Book never contradicts itself. Samuel is in the grave until the first resurrection, along with the other righteous brethren. It was a familiar spirit that spoke through the witch; Saul done himself in. How? Look what Isaiah said here, and keep this scripture in mind when you are about to call the physic hot line.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

This simply means as long as you are alive, seek the LORD unto your physical death.

This is another verse people try to use, by saying, see I told you when you die your spirit floats off to glory.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Here is another scripture that is used.

II Kings 13:20 And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.

21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

I have no idea why the Lord allowed this to happen. When you see Him ask Him. But, you have to think about a couple of things. (1) The Book states no one has ascended into heaven but the only the one that came down from heaven. (2) When Christ was raised several people were raised also, but they all die, and are dust right now.Christ continued to live and set down at the right hand of the Father. Let's go back to Romans and take a look at that spirit.


Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Look at verse 2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.Why did he say for the Law of the Spirit of Life? What law is Paul talking about? Read Hebrews chapter 10, and it will tell you that the Sacrificial Law never could make the comers perfect. What law is he talking about that brings life and frees you from death and sin? The commandments brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Notice in verse 4, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Look at verse 7, Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Now you should see that, if you are not walking in his law you are an enemy of God. Now if you walk in His law His spirit dwells within you. Look at verse 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. What Spirit is that, if you are not walking after the flesh? The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. The Spirit that dwells within you is His Word. When you look at the 11th verse you will see that it isn't a physical death it is a spiritual death, knowing the spirit that dwells within you is his word. Let's go to a couple of Psalm to confirm this.


Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

19 Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved. Not subject to the Law of God

Quicken means to make alive.

Psalm 119:33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.

40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

Notice what it says in the Psalm. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way..Remember what it said in Roman's. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
This quickening is of the mind.Take another look at this in Romans 8. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.The spirit of life is because of righteousness.The Psalm said the same thing.Take another look. Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
This can't be a physical death, why? Remember what Solomon said,

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for ther is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave whither thou goest. Your are a dead man walking if you are not quicken by the spirit of God. Pay close attention to Paul here.


Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:

We were dead in our trespass and sin. This would be a spiritual death not physical.

Ephesians 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Remember what Paul said in Roman's if you walk after the flesh? Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Look at verse 5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Notice it said dead in sin, the subject is still rolling.This is death of the mind or a spiritual death.Notice in verse 6, And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: How did he raise us up into heavenly places? Once again let's let the Book do the talking.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

If you obey Him, you have put off the body of sin of the flesh, buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Plain and simple. Now lets go and confirm that spirit that dwells within you.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This is the spirit that dwells within you. His word! Lets go to the Psalm and see this again. Before we go there I want you to remember this in Isaiah.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You cannot take one verse and explain the whole Bible. Let's move on to the Pslam.

Psalm 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

51 The proud have had me greatly in derision: yet have I not declined from thy law.

Notice it said, for thy word quickened me. Here it is again.

Psalm 119:92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

94 I am thine, save me; for I have sought thy precepts.

What quickened him, the Law! The Lord tells you again.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Notice what it says, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Notice what John says here.

I John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

How do you love the brethren?

I John 5:2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Plain and simple. Now that we know if you don't walk in the spirit of God (which is His Word) you can be alive physically, but spiritually dead. We know that once you are physically dead you will remain in the grave until the resurrection. Now we can go back to Roman chapter 8 and read it with understanding.

Take another look at John before you begin to read this next set of verses.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Look at verse 13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Notice it said mortify the "deeds of the of the body through the spirit. What does mortify mean, it means subdue by abstinence. In other words bring this sinful body under control and walk in the Lord's spirit which is his word. Look at 23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. What does redemption of are vile bodies mean? Take a look at this.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And when will this take place?

I Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump, and not a moment before.

This is the last set. Some people go here to say Christ went to speak to the Dead in the grave. Take a look.

I Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Did Christ die in the days of Noah? No! Those spirits were the angels that fell. It is only one that has already been sentenced to death, and that is satan. Why did he say the spirits in prison? Take a look at this verse.


Jude 1:6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Is this a prison or not? Not in the sense that we think, with bars. Chains of darkness simply means we can not see them. This study have shown you there are 2 types of death, death of the body (physical death), and death of the mind (spiritual death). We also found out that the Word of God is spirit, and if you don't bring you body under control and follow the spirit, which is his word you are walking in the flesh. If you walk in the flesh you are considered an enemy of God. We have also learned once the body dies it is in the grave until the Last trump.
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Postby Rte66 on Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:09 am

OKay Ozell,

I read your previous post with Solomon's writings and I see where you and crmann are coming from. I had a little laugh at this part. ..

Now we know you have no more memory while you are in the grave. If you did something wrong to a person and they're dead, you don't have to worry, they won't come and haunt your house.


So the contention is accord. to crmann that this is one of those time related principles. We die, we step out of time. We are oblivious to the elapse in time that occurs in time and so when we arise its like in an instant from the time of death. Yes, I can see that as a possibility. I have to go read about Lazarus and the rich man again. The rich man had a peak at where a dead saint was, in Abraham's bosom. So that was a jump out of time? Why didn't he see him in New Jerusalem if that's where we'll be once we awaken, after the great battle of course? :humm:

Angie
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Postby Seeker on Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:48 am

Hi crmann,

You only asked about the OT so I was holding out on you. Here is another one.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Here we see saints who have been killed during the tribulation. Where are they that they could ask God questions? They are under the altar. Where is the altar, in heaven.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Bob the Quiet on Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:08 am

crmann wrote:David asked:

After we die we awake immediately for the resurrection. Am I right?


Yes, this is what I am saying.

My, I cannot keep up with all the questions here. And, I am in the middle of a torentual downpour and I keep losing my satelite connection which is really annoying.

No David, I haven't purchased the book, "Heaven" yet. Actually I am kind of waiting to see what those who read it have to say about it. If I will help me explain more about what we have been discussing here, then I will add it to my library. So if you would, when you finish it, let me know if you think it is worthwhile.

Blessings,

Cleveland


The Resurrection/Rapture takes place just before Christ establishes the Millennial Kingdom, so then after the Resurrection we'll all still be right here on earth...earth more or less as we know it now since things are made new until after the Millennium.
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Postby crmann on Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:35 pm

Angie asked a question:

Jhn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Please explain these verses to me in light of the present discussion. ..Thanks


Angie, I have to be honest with you, this answer was not easy.

This is a key scripture used by those who teach a pre-trib rapture. However if we keep in mind what other scriptures have taught us this scripture further encourages us to look forward to Christ’s second coming in power and glory.

Isn’t it interesting that church folk sing and talk about going to heaven, yet this is not taught in the scriptures. I think it is interesting, also, that if no one ever goes to heaven, ever, those who teach that Christ is coming in a rapture to take the believers to heaven have a problem with their belief.

Let me share just two verses from the old testament which teach that those who have died sleep, and will sleep until the resurrection. And is we die before the first resurrection, we also will sleep with them.

2 Samual 7:12 addressed to King David:
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

Daniel 12:2 addressed to all believers:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The Bible clearly teaches two resurrections, one for the saved and one for the lost (John 5:29; Revelation 20:4-6; 11-15).

Even in the new testament, Paul addresses those who sleep, not those who are in heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 addressed to believers:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent F10 them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort F11 one another with these words.

In John 14:2-3, Jesus give encouraging promises to his disciples, and to us concerning life beyond the grave.

Consider what Jesus prayed to his Father for us in John 17:24: "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which Thou hast given me in Thy love for me before the foundation of the earth." Did you pick that up? To behold His glory! Where will we see His glory?

To behold His glory: "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all the kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1: 7.)

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus Christ will roar out of Zion, (Heaven) with a shout. (Joel 3:l6 Amos l:2) He will "send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet (7th Trumpet?) and they shall "GATHER" His Elect from the four winds and from one end of Heaven to the other". (Matthew 24:3l) This will be a glorious event. His Coming in power and radiant glory will be so great that the dark sky will break into brilliant Shining from the Light of His Godly Presence, like lightning in a storm. Christ will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. I Thessalonians 4:17 says the dead (All the dead, not just a special group of the dead) in Christ and those alive shall all be caught up together in clouds to 'meet Him in the air', to be with Him forever. I Corinthians l5:50-53 says people are 'changed' in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (7th Trumpet). This means physical bodies being changed to new spiritual heavenly bodies, like Christ's glorious body. (Philippians 3:21) Why? Because I Corinthians 15:50 says flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. II Thessalonians 2:1 says when Christ comes, there will then be a GATHERING. Then after the saints have been gathered, with Him in the clouds, I Thessalonians 4:14 and Zechariah l4:5 says that Christ will bring His Saints with Him when He comes, those who are now in His Presence. (II Corinthians 5:8) (Matthew 24:30-3l I Thessalonians 4:13-17 Revelation l4:l4-l6) to bring judgment to the earth.

So, when are our physical bodies changed to new spiritual bodies? At the sound of the last or seventh trumpet. And the scriptures say, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Corinthians 15:50.

If no one inherits their spiritual bodies until the seventh trumpet sounds, then it stands to reason that only Christ, His Father and the heavenly creatures are in heaven, which is the abode of God, and as John 3:13 says, no man has entered heaven, but only the Christ.

Why is it that most Christians believe John 3:16, but ignore John 3:13?

Cleveland,

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Postby crmann on Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:55 pm

From Angie:

Thank you crmann,

Take your time.

I will do some reading on Hebrews and give it some thought. I do have one question about that passage for now. .. what about this part? ..

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death,

When you have time I'm interested in what you have to say about the verse in John, I posted above. .."I go to prepare a place for you? ". ..

Thanks again,
Angie


On the question: I go to prepare a place for you?, I feel that I have addressed this questions in my last post.

Okey Angie, more about Enoch:

    Christians who believe in the immortality of the soul or spirit sometimes point to the antediluvian patriarch Enoch and the prophet Elijah as examples of men who have never died and are alive in heaven.

    Enoch is sometimes further taken as a type of the “pre-tribulation rapture” of the Body of Christ at the end of this dispensation! According to this theory, just as Enoch was “snatched away” to heaven and safety before the Flood, so also will Christians at the end of the dispensation of grace be “snatched away” to heaven and safety before the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God.

    As for Elijah, who hasn’t at one time or another heard in a sermon how that Elijah was carried off to heaven in a fiery chariot thereby escaping death? (Of course the scriptures say he was carried off to heaven in a whorlwind, not a chariot..) This popular notion has even passed into evangelical hymnology in the song “Swing Low Sweet Chariot---comin’ for to carry me home”!

    In some modern “last days scenarios” both Enoch and Elijah are identified as the Two Witnesses of the Book of Revelation (11:3-12). Adherents to this view reason that since “it is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27) and since (according to their theory) neither Enoch nor Elijah have yet died, they must therefore appear again on earth just before the end of the age to witness to the followers of the Antichrist and then be slain, after which God will raise them from the dead and take them “back to heaven.” (This is what I have always thought, but now I'm not sure.)

    Now in the case of Enoch, the language used of him in Genesis and Hebrews is incredibly brief, and great care must be taken to interpret it correctly and in harmony with what the rest of the scriptures teach on the state of the dead.

    In the case of Elijah, the language used in 2 Kings is plain enough, it’s just more often than not misread and thereby misunderstood.

    To further complicate matters, the teaching that these men escaped death and are alive in heaven is an ancient one. And to those who espouse it, the very antiquity of the teaching seemingly lends it a kind of authority. But antiquity does not equal authority. What is true is true because it is true and not merely because it is old! The serpent’s lie: “thou shalt not surely die” (Genesis 3:4) is very, very old--but it is not the truth.

    This belief about Enoch and Elijah being taken alive into heaven first makes its appearance in Jewish thought and literature during the intertestamental period. That is, this belief doesn’t appear until after the Jews return from the seventy year long Babylonian Captivity.

    Some time after the Jews were taken into captivity, the Babylonian Empire was overthrown by the Medes and Persians. The state religion of the new empire was Zoroastrianism In fact, King Cyrus--.who Isaiah named in prophecy several centuries before he was born (Isaiah 45:1-4) and who allowed a remnant of the Jews to return to the land...King Cyrus was himself a Zoroastrian!

    Zoroastrianism comes from Zoroaster ("seed of the star" or "star-seed") which is what the Greeks called the Iranian prophet Zarathustra.

    Now the Zoroastrians had a number of doctrines which more or less paralleled those of the Jews. They believed in a Supremely Good and All-Wise eternal Creator-God named Ahura Mazda, and in an Evil, not quite eternal, Corrupt-god named Angra Mainyu (or Ahriman) who was somewhat analogous to the Biblical Satan. They believed in a coming deliverer called a Saoshyant (“savior”) who would be born of a virgin. They believed in both angels and demons. And they believed in the resurrection of the dead.

    However, in contrast to the teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs and prophets, they believed that at death the spirit of the righteous would ascend to Garo Demana (the heaven of light and the abode of Ahura Mazda), whereas the spirit of the wicked would descend to Drujo Demana (the house of the lie and the abode of Angra Mainyu) where it would dwell forever in “a murky glow and woeful wailings.”

    According to Scripture, before the Jewish remnant was allowed to return to the land of Israel, many Zoroastrians converted to Judaism (Esther 8:17). (Many of the people of the land became Jews, because fear of the Jews fell upon them, but they held on to many of their beliefs.) As is often the case in such conversions the new convert brings some concepts from the old religion into the new one. This is especially so when there already exist many parallels between the two religions as was the case with Zoroastrianism and Judaism.

    Evidence of the infiltration of Zoroastrian ideas Post-Captivity Judaism can be found in intertestamental literature, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and in Rabbinic traditions.

    For example, some of the Rabbis taught that “the names of the angels [as well as the names of the months] came with us from Babylonia” (Rosh Hashanah 1.56d). In fact, Asmodeus, the evil spirit in the Book of Tobit (3:8; etc.), is actually the name of a Zoroastrian demon!

    Again, the community of Essenes at Qumran in their Charter teach a doctrine of “two spirits” that so closely resembles Zarathustra’s teaching that few scholars fail to see the connection.

    The Aramaic word for “demon” which was used by the Jews in Palestine in the first century is Deva which is a word borrowed from the Persian language.

    Finally, the word “paradise” (Aramaic=pardaisa and Greek=paradeisos) is derived from the Persian word pardis. “Pardis was the name of a famous palace and garden built by one of the Median kings about seven centuries before Christ.” The Greek transliteration of this word is used throughout the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew words for “garden” (gan/ganna). The Aramaic pardaisa was in common use in Palestine in the first century and survives in Rabbinical writings and in the Peshitta and other Aramaic (Syriac) Christian literature.

    Since there is no evidence in Scripture that the Jews, prior to the Babylonian Captivity, believed in an intermediate state between death and resurrection, and since Jewish belief in an intermediate state first appears in Judaism after the Jews’ return to the land (along with a number of other concepts of Persian origin)---it is reasonable to believe that late Jewish traditions of an intermediate state are also of Persian (that is, Zoroastrian) origin!

    Still later, when Palestine would come under Greek rule, Hellenistic ideas would further reinforce this deviation from Biblical teaching.

    Now in the apocryphal Wisdom of Sirach, Genesis 5:24 is plainly interpreted as teaching that Enoch was taken up alive into heaven by God:

    “Enoch pleased the Lord, and was taken up; he was an example of repentance to all generations.” (Sirach 44:16)

    “No one like Enoch has been created on earth, for he was taken up from the earth.” (Sirach 49:14)

    The prophet Elijah gets a similar treatment in Sirach:

    “You who were taken up by a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot with horses of fire; you who are ready at the appointed time, it is written, to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in fury...” (Sirach 48:9-10)
 
    But is the teaching in this apocryphal book Scriptural? Are the theories, both ancient and modern which are based upon this teaching, the truth?

    Let us take a closer look at what the scriptures have to say about these so called “Old Testament raptures.” We will begin with the case of Enoch:

    “And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24, KJV)
   
“By faith Enoch was translated so that he did not see death, ‘and was not found because God had translated him’; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5 NKJV)

    As a number of scholars and students believe that Paul’s epistle to the Hebrews was originally scribed in Aramaic and then translated into Greek there is a Dr. Lamsa’s translation of this verse from the Peshitta:

    “By faith Enoch DEPARTED and did not taste death, and he was not found, because God TOOK him; but before He TOOK him away, there was a testimonial about him, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5 Lamsa)

    Some interpret these passages as saying that Enoch never died, but that God took him directly to heaven. On the other hand, there are Scriptures that certainly contradict such a notion. For example:

    “No man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.” (John 3:13, NKJV)

    “No man has seen God at any time.” (l John 4:12, NKJV)

In Genesis 5:24 the word “took” is from the Hebrew laqah which means “to receive” or “to accept” (Young’s Analytical Concordance). Phrases similar to "he was not" are used elsewhere in the Old Testament to denote DEATH. For example:

    “Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not” (Jeremiah 31:15 NKJV) -- that is, they had died. Again: “...for now I shall lie in the earth; thou wilt seek me but I shall not be” (Job 7:21 KJV). Thus, Genesis 5:24 could be read: “And Enoch walked with God, and he died; for God accepted him.” 
    The first part of this verse seems plain enough, but what could “for God accepted him” possibly mean? A closer look at Hebrews 11:5 will provide the answer we seek.

    In the Aramaic (Peshitta) text of Hebrews 11:5 the words which Dr. Lamsa renders “departed” and “took” are from the word sena which means “to remove,” “to change,” “to depart,” “to translate,” “to transfer” and “to carry over”. In this context, “to remove” is probably the best rendering. “By faith Enoch was removed..." This reminds us of Job's declaration: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him"(Job 13:15, KJV).

    The Greek text of Hebrews 11:5 is also illuminating. The NKJV reads in part: “By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death...” Here the Greek word rendered “taken away is METATITHEMI, which, according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, means “to place, or transfer in a passive, horizontal posture.” Forms of this word also occur in Acts 7:16 (“carried back”), Galatians 1:6 (“turning away”), Hebrews 7:12 (“changed”), and Jude 4 (“turn”). It is also used in the fourth chapter of the apocryphal Wisdom of Solomon. Chapter four, verse ten reads:

    “He pleased God, and was beloved of Him; so that living among sinners he was translated.” [14]

    An examination of the context of this verse reveals that it is not referring to Enoch in particular, but rather to the righteous in general in contrast to the wicked. Let's look at Wisdom 4:10 once more, this time in context:
 
    “But though the righteous be prevented with death, yet shall he [the righteous] be in rest.” (v.7)
    “He [the righteous] pleased God, and was beloved of Him; so that living among sinners he [the righteous] was translated.” (v.10)
    “Yea, speedily he [the righteous] was TAKEN AWAY, lest that wickedness should alter his understanding, or deceit beguile his soul.” (v.11)
    “He [the righteous], being made perfect in a short time, fulfilled a long time.” (v.13)
“For his soul pleased the Lord; therefore hasted [God] to take him away from among the wicked.” (v.14)
    “This the people saw, and understood it not, neither laid they up this in their minds, that [God's] grace and mercy is with His saints, and that He has respect unto His chosen.” (v.15)
    “Thus the righteous that is dead shall condemn the ungodly which are living...” (v.16)
    “For they shall see the end of the wise, and shall not understand what God in His counsel hath decreed of him [the righteous], and to what end the Lord hath set him in safety.” (v.17)

    All of the above verses are from The Wisdom of Solomon, chapter four, verses seven through seventeen. This passage teaches that when the wicked live to be very old and the righteous die young it is because God is merciful to the righteous! God takes the righteous away from among the wicked to spare them from their contaminating influence.

    Thus we see that the Greek word METATITHEMI, as used in the Greek text of Hebrews 11:5 and in the Wisdom of Solomon 4:7-17, METATITHEMI simply means to be taken out of life before one's years are fulfilled or before one's time. This is in order to spare the righteous from the further corrupting influence of the wicked, thereby insuring that the righteous do not lose their reward!

    Let me point out that the parallels between the situation of “the righteous” in these verses and that of Enoch as related in Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 are many. In fact, the author of the Wisdom of Solomon had Enoch in mind when he wrote this passage, and he used Enoch as an example of what happens and why-- whenever any righteous person is prematurely removed from the land of the living.

    Finally, neither the Aramaic text of Hebrews 11:5 nor the Greek texts of Hebrews 11:5 and The Wisdom of Solomon 4:7-17 teach that anyone was “translated” alive up to heaven.

    As for the statement that Enoch “did not see death” (Hebrews 11:5, NKJV), this should be compared and contrasted with the statements of Paul in 2 Timothy 4:6-8 and of Peter in 2 Peter 1:13-15. These men had advance warning of their impending death. Enoch was removed suddenly and without warning.

    For any who may think this interpretation of Enoch's removal strange, then consider the commentary of one of Judaism’s greatest teachers: Rabbi Solomon, son of Isaac, of Troyes---commoniy known as Rashi. Here follows his interpretation of Genesis 5:24:

    “and Enoch walked.  He was a righteous man, yet [it was] lightminded (for him) to return to evil. Therefore the Holy One, Blessed be He, hastened and removed him and let him die before his time. That is why Scripture varies [the expression] about his death and writes, ‘And he was no’ in the world to complete his years.  For He took him. Before his time..." (The Pentateuch And Rashi’s Commentary, Vol.1: Genesis).
 
    While the comments of The Wisdom of Solomon and Rashi are very illuminating--in that they establish that the language used of Enoch in Genesis and in Hebrews can legitimately refer to a premature death--Nevertheless, the testimony of God’s Word must be our final court of appeal in this matter. Let us, then, return to Hebrews eleven and see if that chapter can shed any more light on the fate of Enoch.

    Hebrews eleven lists the famous men and women of the Old Testament era and testifies of their faith:

“By faith Abel... By faith Enoch... By faith Noah... By faith Abraham...”

    After listing all of these faithful ones, including Enoch, Paul concludes in verse 13: “These all died in faith, not having received the promises...”

    And again:  
“And these all [again: including Enoch], having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise; God having provided some better thing for us, that they [including Enoch] without us should not be made perfect.” (Hebrews 11:4-13, NKJV)

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude--innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    If God’s Word is to be believed, and it is, Enoch was not "raptured" to heaven. We must conclude, rather, that Enoch did die; that he died in faith not having received the promises, and that he shall receive the promises in the resurrection of the dead like all believers.

    What about Elijah? Doesn't Scripture teach that he was taken away to heaven in a fiery chariot?

    “And it came to pass, as they [Elijah & Elisha] still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2 Kings 2:11, KJV) 

    Does this verse actually teach that the prophet was taken up alive into heaven, whether by a chariot of fire or by a whirlwind? As we saw above, the author of the apocryphal Wisdom of Sirach seemed to think so! Let’s take another look at what Sirach says and then compare it to the inspired Word of God.
 
    “You [Elijah] who were taken up by a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot with horses of fire; you who are ready at the appointed time, it is written, to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in fury” (Sirach 48:9.10) 

    And now God's Word:  
    “...and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into HEAVEN.” (2 Kings 2:1l, KJV)

    The word translated “heaven” in this verse is from the Hebrew SHAMAYIM which The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says means “heaven, sky”(p.1029, col.2). It is the same word used in Genesis 1:7-8 where God is said to have placed water above and below the firmament and then “God called the firmament HEAVEN;"--that is, THE SKY!

    Sirach’s belief that Elijah was alive in heaven and “ready at the appointed time…to calm the wrath of God before it breaks out in fury” was based on his interpretation of Malachi 4:5-6, which reads:
    “Behold, I will send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:  And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse...” (KJV) 

    But Sirach’s literal understanding of this prophecy is not correct. The Lord Jesus Christ gives us the correct interpretation. According to Jesus, Malachi prophesied the ministry of John the Baptist:  
    “He [John the Baptist] will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.” (Luke 1:17, NKJV)
 
    No, Elijah did NOT ride up to heaven on a fiery chariot as many believe. The Scripture plainly states that “a chariot of fire parted them [Elijah & Elisha] asunder.” And after Elisha was some distance away “Elijah went up BY A WHIRLWIND.” (That would have been quite a hot triip, in a chariot of fire!) Further, the meaning of the Hebrew is that the prophet “went up by a whirlwind into THE SKY” or “atmosphere.” He certainly did not ascend to the heaven of the angels or of God’s throne! How can we be sure?

    First, as has already been quoted. there is the statement of the Apostle Paul that; “No man has ascended into heaven.” (John 3:13).
    Second, the Scriptures record that ELIJAH WAS STILL ON EARTH SOME TWENTY YEARS LATER during the reign of King Jehoram!

    “And there came a letter to him [King Jehoram] from Elijah the prophet, saying: 'Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father! Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, Nor in the ways of Asa, King of Judah...” (2 Chronicles 21:12, KJV)

    This letter conclusively demonstrates two things:
    1) It demonstrates that Elijah was still on earth some twenty years after being transported by a whirlwind through the atmosphere to a different location
    2) It further shows that Elijah was acquainted with contemporary events and therefore must have been living somewhere in Israel or Judah.

    Ephrem, an early Syriac Christian theologian, comments: “There came suddenly from on high a fire-storm, and in the midst of the flame the form of a chariot and of horses, and separated them from one another; one of the two it left on the earth, the other, namely Elijah, it carried up on high...but whither the wind...took him, or in what place it left him, the Scriptures have NOT told us. They say, however, that some years afterwards an alarming letter from him, full of threats, was delivered to King Joram of Judah.” (quoted in Commentary On the OT, Keil & Delitzsch, Vol.3, p.209, note 1).

    To this we add the testimony of Josephus: “Now at this time it was that Elijah disappeared from among men, and no one knows of his death to this very day;...And indeed, as to Elijah, and as to Enoch, who was before the Deluge, it is written in the sacred books that they disappeared; but so that nobody knew that they died"  (Antiquities IX, 9:2)
 
    Some believers take Elijah’s appearance with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration as proof that Elijah did in fact ascend to heaven.  Let’s examine the record to see whether this is so.  Matthew 17:1-9 reads:

    “Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.  His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.  Then  Peter answered and said to Jesus, ‘Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’  While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud over-shadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased.  Hear Him!'  And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid.  But Jesus came and touched them and said, 'Arise, and do not be afraid.'  When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, 'Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.’” (NKJV)

    Many think that this passage proves that Elijah, to say nothing of Moses, is still alive, but verse 9 plainly states that what the disciples saw and heard occurred in a vision!
    The Shem-Tob manuscript of the Gospel of Matthew--preserved for centuries by the Jews and NOT a translation  from  Greek or Aramaic--is a textual descendant of the original Hebrew Matthew.  In chapter 17, verse three of this little known manuscript there is an interesting variant reading:

    “Then Moses and Elijah, while speaking with Him, were revealed to them and they told Jesus all which would happen to Him in Jerusalem.  Peter and his companions were asleep.  Asleep but not asleep; awake but not awake.  They saw His body and the two men with Him.”
 
    This textual variant teaches us three things: 1) It teaches that the sight and sound of “Moses and Elijah” speaking with Jesus was a REVELATION to Peter, James and John.  2) It teaches us that the purpose of the revelation was to prepare the disciples for what was going to happen to Jesus in Jerusalem; and that the path to His glorification was to be one of suffering.  This is confirmed in verses 12 & 22.  And finally, 3) It teaches that the state in which the disciples received this REVELATION was not unlike a waking dream.  They are described as being “asleep but not asleep; awake but not awake.”

    But why Moses and Elijah?  Why not Abraham and Job?  Or Deborah and Barak?  The reason is that Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, and that what was going to happen to Jesus in Jerusalem was going to happen in fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets.  The disciples had a difficult time grasping this teaching.

    In chapter 24 of the gospel of Luke we’re told that after His resurrection from the dead Jesus met two of His disciples on the road to Emmaus. Not recognizing Him they spoke with Him about their Master and how He had been delivered up and crucified, and how His tomb had been found empty.   In verses 25-27 we read:

    “Then He said to them, ‘O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?’  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.” (NKJV) 

    Now in the Law and the Prophets there are two principal lines of Messianic teaching.  One line concerns “the suffering servant.” The other line concerns “the Davidic king.”  A two-messiah theory was widely held at that time.  Many Rabbis believed in a Messiah-ben-Joseph who would come and suffer and redeem his brethren; and in a Messiah-ben-David who would come and deliver Israel from her enemies and then rule for ever on the throne of David.

    The Essenes at Qumran also held a form of this theory.  In their Charter they are counseled:

    “They shall govern themselves using the original precepts by which the men of the Community began to be instructed, doing so until there come the Prophet and the Messiah's of Aaron and Israel.” (1Q, col. 9, lines 10-11) [19] 

    It is quite possible that the purpose of this VISION was to teach the disciples that Jesus is THE “beloved Son” in Whom God is well-pleased and the singular INDIVIDUAL in Whom BOTH lines of Messianic prophecy will be fulfilled.  It does NOT teach that Elijah is alive in heaven!

    In closing, let's return to Hebrews chapter eleven.  While Elijah the prophet is not here mentioned by name (as was Enoch) he is most certainly included in verse 32 in the phrase: “...and of the rest of the prophets.”

    Therefore Elijah ALSO comes under the verdict that “these ALL died in faith...” (Hebrews 11:13) and “ALL these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.”

(Hebrews 11:32-38, NKJV) The New Living Translation:
32 Well, how much more do I need to say? It would take too long to recount the stories of the faith of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and all the prophets (this would include Elijah). 33 By faith these people overthrew kingdoms, ruled with justice, and received what God had promised them. They shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the flames of fire, and escaped death by the edge of the sword. Their weakness was turned to strength. They became strong in battle and put whole armies to flight. 35 Women received their loved ones back again from death.But others trusted God and were tortured, preferring to die rather than turn from God and be free. They placed their hope in the resurrection to a better life. 36 Some were mocked, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in dungeons. 37 Some died by stoning, and some were sawed in half; others were killed with the sword. Some went about in skins of sheep and goats, hungry and oppressed and mistreated. 38 They were too good for this world. They wandered over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground. The Bible in Basic English 11:39 And not one of these got the good things of the agreement, though they all had a good record through faith, 11:40 Because God had kept some better thing for us, so that it was not possible for them to become complete without us.
 
 In Conclusion:
     The testimony of God's Word is clear and consistent on these matters.  All die in Adam. Enoch and Elijah are no exception! Along with the patriarchs, the prophets and all who have since died in faith--they sleep the sleep of death until it is time for them to awaken in resurrection.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us that it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment. If this verse is true, then all other scriptures that even hint someone never died needs to be carefully examined.

Whew!!!!!!!!

Angie, don't give me credit for figuring this out on my own. These are bits and pieces I've put together in the past from a number of books I have read, and the notes I have kept.

YBIC,

Cleveland
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Postby Mario on Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:04 pm

Ozell and crmann,

Your posts are so comprehensive. I love to savor God's Word and take it in small bites! Anyway, here's most of the content of one of my previous posts that went unanswered...after perusing this could anyone tell me who then are the spirits of just men made perfect?


Considering your utter conviction in regard to the above, what is your take on the Book of Hebrews. How marvelous is the access we have to the Father through the blood of Christ!

4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

For Christ has entered the heavenly sanctuary before us:

9:12 ...he entered once for all into the Holy Place...

9:24 For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Where 4:16 points out our access, Heb 12 is much more detailed:

v. 22 But you have come [already a reality] to Mount Zion and to the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...

Yes, this is in the Spirit; we cannot see with our fleshly eyes, but it is true, nonetheless! And notice in whose company we rejoice before the throne (v.22-24):

angels
assembly of the first-born
the God of all
spirits of just men made perfect
Jesus

Certainly the category of just men made perfect must at least include the spirits of the OT saints whom were praised in Heb 11.

Hebrews speaks of the heavenly Jerusalem as a present reality, not simply a hope for those in Sheol. This festive gathering awaits each of the saved who have fallen asleep. Yes, we await bodily resurrection, but, our desire even now is...to depart and be with the Lord (Php 1:23).
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Postby Be still on Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:23 pm

:snack:
YSIC, Karen
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Postby ozell on Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:58 pm

Hi Mario

Your posts are so comprehensive. I love to savor God's Word and take it in small bites! Anyway, here's most of the content of one of my previous posts that went unanswered...after perusing this could anyone tell me who then are the spirits of just men made perfect?


Where is the heavenly Jerusalem COMING? TO EARTH. Revelation 21
when will we be in the heavenly Jerusalem? Revelation 20 and 21
what is written in heaven? our names in the book of life. REVELATION 20
when are we made perfect? some at the 1st and some at the 2nd resurrection
who is the Father of spirits? the Father. Hebrews12v9
When are we all be spirits? some at the 1st resurrection, all at the 2nd resurrection whether we are bad or good.

Heb 12:22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

Considering your utter conviction in regard to the above, what is your take on the Book of Hebrews. How marvelous is the access we have to the Father through the blood of Christ!


4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.


since Jesus said no man has went to heaven. then the throne of grace must be in a place where man can come to.

when Jesus return the scriptures says that he will sit on the throne of David.
where was David throne? in Jerusalem on the earth.
Understand Jesus sits on a thone in heaven now.
But we can't go there.
He made a promise that we will sit on his throne not the Fathers throne. He also said that when he comes he will sit on the throne of his glory which is David's throne in Jerusalem

Rv 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

For Christ has entered the heavenly sanctuary before us:

9:12 ...he entered once for all into the Holy Place...

9:24 For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.


Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

we can't go there. why?

1Corith 15v38: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

46: Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47: The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48: As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49: And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Where 4:16 points out our access, Heb 12 is much more detailed:

v. 22 But you have come [already a reality] to Mount Zion and to the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...

Yes, this is in the Spirit; we cannot see with our fleshly eyes, but it is true, nonetheless! And notice in whose company we rejoice before the throne (v.22-24):


Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

If you are in heaven why would you need to find grace in time of need?

you are in heaven! you are perfect!
get on your knees and asked the High priest for help in your time of need. Jesus is not the king yet he is our high priest.

angels
assembly of the first-born
the God of all
spirits of just men made perfect
Jesus

Certainly the category of just men made perfect must at least include the spirits of the OT saints whom were praised in Heb 11.

Hebrews speaks of the heavenly Jerusalem as a present reality, not simply a hope for those in Sheol. This festive gathering awaits each of the saved who have fallen asleep. Yes, we await bodily resurrection, but, our desire even now is...to depart and be with the Lord (Php 1:23).


yes its a desire now
but we still have to wait until the time appointed.

ozell
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Postby ozell on Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:09 pm

Hi Angie

So the contention is accord. to crmann that this is one of those time related principles. We die, we step out of time. We are oblivious to the elapse in time that occurs in time and so when we arise its like in an instant from the time of death. Yes, I can see that as a possibility. I have to go read about Lazarus and the rich man again. The rich man had a peak at where a dead saint was, in Abraham's bosom. So that was a jump out of time? Why didn't he see him in New Jerusalem if that's where we'll be once we awaken, after the great battle of course?


The scene between Abraham and the rich man is outside of New Jerusalem but in that time PERIOD.

In Jesus kingdom all we see is the beast and the false Prophet in the Lake of Fire.

after the white throne Judgement the 2nd resurrection we see whomever is not written in the book of life throne into the lake of fire

Rev19v11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17: And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18: That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

ozell
Rev20v10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Postby crmann on Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:16 pm

Hi Mario,

I have taken to time to comment on your comments.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need
........ As the Jewish high priest interceded before the mercy-seat, We know we can come boldly to the mercy-seat, knowing that our savior, the Lord Jesus Christ is our high priest in the heavens. We can now have confidence that we ask for grace to help in times of need.

For Christ has entered the heavenly sanctuary before us:


Hebrews 9:12 ...he entered once for all into the Holy Place
........
By his own blood. The high priest always carried into the Most Holy Place the blood of the atonement, but Christ carried his own blood when he entered the Holy of Holies above. Obtained eternal redemption. By Christ’s offering, His ransom was complete, and for all time.

9:24 For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf
........ The sanctuary made with hands. The tabernacle on earth. Into heaven itself. The true Holy of Holies. There, in the presence of God, Christ intercedes for us, as the high priest below interceded before the Shekinah.

Where 4:16 points out our access, Heb 12 is much more detailed:


v. 22 But you have come [already a reality] to Mount Zion and to the City of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
........ 22-24. Ye are come unto Mount Zion. The law was given at Sinai; the Gospel was to go forth from Mount Zion; that is, from Jerusalem. See Psalms 2:6; Joel 2:32; Revelation 21:2. It is used as a type or symbol of the kingdom of heaven. The heavenly Jerusalem. This heavenly city is where our Lord dwells and is our eternal home. In coming to Christ we have come into the covenant which gives us the right to a place in that city. An innumerable company of angels. The angels of heaven. 23. General assembly and church, etc. The universal church of Christ. The first born son in Israel inherited the birthright, but all the saints have the birthright and hence are called the first born. They are all enrolled, not on earthly registers, but their names are written in heaven. To God the Judge of all, who will inflict judgment in behalf of the persecuted church. The spirits of just men made perfect. To the fellowship of all the sainted dead now perfected above. 24. To Jesus. To fellowship with Jesus, the Mediator of the New Covenant as Moses was of the Old. To the blood of sprinkling. To Christ's atoning blood by which our hearts are "sprinkled from an evil conscience." That speaketh better things than that of Abel. Abel's blood cried for vengeance; Christ's pleads for mercy.

Yes, this is in the Spirit; we cannot see with our fleshly eyes, but it is true, nonetheless! And notice in whose company we rejoice before the throne (v.22-24):


Mario, you said some of your questions were never answered. What were those questions? I can't seem to find them.

Cleveland
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Postby LandLover on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:52 am

In my most HUMBLE opinion, I have to say that I not so concerned about being in "Heaven", "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bossom" as they're called.

2 Corinthians 5:8 has already been mentioned above -

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Wherever "present with the Lord" is will suit me just fine.

:a3:
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Postby Salty Skipper on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:53 am

:a3:
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Postby crmann on Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:28 am

LandLover wrote:

In my most HUMBLE opinion, I have to say that I not so concerned about being in "Heaven", "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bossom" as they're called.


I'm with you, LandLover....

One reason I started this thread was to get feedback from others so as to better my own understanding on this idea. From the studying I have recently done on this idea, I have come to believe we will all sleep until the resurrection.

But the main reason I started it was to get all the biblical truth I could so as to share with my pastor. You see, my pastor believes in a pretrib rapture. Now if I can help him understand that no one goes to the heavenly abode of God, then he will see the problem with the pre trib rapture belief.

So, I am hoping this thread will keep growing with others supporting input and questions which I will have to do more studying to answer.

Cleveland
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Postby Salty Skipper on Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:32 am

Good point, Cleveland. :wink:
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Postby Be still on Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:23 pm

Wherever "present with the Lord" is will suit me just fine.


:a3:

The possibilities are interesting to study though.
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Heaven when we die?

Postby alimakjames on Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:45 pm

From 1st Samuel we read.


10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
"Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."


14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
"An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
"I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."


Notice Samuel was "braught up", secondly, we notice that Samuel says to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me, by bringing me up". It sounds as though Samuel was in a "soul sleep".


Secondly, if we read Thessalonians, we see that people were running around teaching others that the day of the Lord had already come. They seem troubled over the fact that if their Christian Brothers, and Sisters have gone already, then they must have been left behind. God gives a timely revelation to Paul regarding the truth of this matter.


Thessalonians is an important read in understanding this subject, and it collaborates with what we see happening with Samuel when the Witch of Endor brings up Samuels Soul, from the ground.


1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When you goto bed at night, and wake up in the morning, you may have slept 9 or 10 hours, but it is asif time had stopped for you. Likewise the dead in Christ who died a 1000 years ago, will open their eyes to the return of our Lord. There is one return, and all of the dead in Christ will be there for it.

So the answer to your question is, no, when we die we do not go straight to Heaven, however, due to the lack of time restraints! it will feel asthough we did. There are a few in the Bible who may actually be in Heaven already, but it is speculation. For example the thief on the cross, who Jesus told, "On this day you will be with me in Paradise."



God Bless.
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What is my motive?

Postby Mario on Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:06 pm

crmann wrote:
But the main reason I started it was to get all the biblical truth I could so as to share with my pastor. You see, my pastor believes in a pretrib rapture. Now if I can help him understand that no one goes to the heavenly abode of God, then he will see the problem with the pre trib rapture belief.
So, I am hoping this thread will keep growing with others supporting input and questions which I will have to do more studying to answer.

Cleveland


crmann,

I hope I'm reading you correctly. Knowing what you've written on other threads, I'm guessing your hope is more than just to be proven right. It is a heartfelt concern for the brethren who hold to a pre-trib view, who would suffer doubt and confusion to find themselves in the firestorm of the 70th Week.

In a similar fashion as to what Simon suffered during the Lord's Passion, I feel as if Satan seeks to sift all of us like wheat(Lk 22:31-32). It is not enough for us to rightly divide the word of truth; let us follow the Master's example and pray that the faith of each of us fail not, and that we can strengthen the brethren, in the midst of our own Passion.

Thanks be to God for all who love both the Truth and their neighbor.
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Postby ozell on Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:10 am

Hi Fp


In my most HUMBLE opinion, I have to say that I not so concerned about being in "Heaven", "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bossom" as they're called.

2 Corinthians 5:8 has already been mentioned above -

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Wherever "present with the Lord" is will suit me just fine.



Since we are Christains and followers of Jesus is a wise thing to know where your saviour will be.

Since our Saviour reveals secrets to his prophets its good to know where he will be.

Jesus desire is to dwell in Jerusalem then its good to know that we christians would want the same desire. His presence will be in Jerusalem so are ours
:a3:

Ps 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

Ps 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.

Good topic Cleveland

wisdom, knowledge and understanding in God's word will always be a blessing.

continue your studying to show yourself aprroved of God.

ozell
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Postby crmann on Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:54 am

Mario wrote:

I hope I'm reading you correctly. Knowing what you've written on other threads, I'm guessing your hope is more than just to be proven right. It is a heartfelt concern for the brethren who hold to a pre-trib view, who would suffer doubt and confusion to find themselves in the firestorm of the 70th Week.


Thank you Mario, you are reading correctly. My concern is that the folk at the church I attend are not being prepared for what is before us. They have been lead to think God is going to take them out of this world before the tribulation. Most of them are not grounded in the depths of the scriptures and when the antichist comes, many of them will be deceived because they have not been prepared.

For what has God been preparing the Church? He has been preparing the Church to be warriors for Him in the final battle. What good would we be to Him if we were to be in a place called heaven?

And thank you, Ozell for your support.

YBIC,

Cleveland,

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Heaven

Postby Glen on Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:27 am

crmann wrote:Mario wrote:

I hope I'm reading you correctly. Knowing what you've written on other threads, I'm guessing your hope is more than just to be proven right. It is a heartfelt concern for the brethren who hold to a pre-trib view, who would suffer doubt and confusion to find themselves in the firestorm of the 70th Week.


Thank you Mario, you are reading correctly. My concern is that the folk at the church I attend are not being prepared for what is before us. They have been lead to think God is going to take them out of this world before the tribulation. Most of them are not grounded in the depths of the scriptures and when the antichist comes, many of them will be deceived because they have not been prepared.

For what has God been preparing the Church? He has been preparing the Church to be warriors for Him in the final battle. What good would we be to Him if we were to be in a place called heaven?

And thank you, Ozell for your support.

YBIC,

Cleveland,

The Old Timer

Did Christ speak of his death burial and resurrection to his diciples before the cross? yes He did but none understood it, it was hid from them, and not untill after he was cut off was their mind open to the scriptures about this issue, not untill the nation was cut off and the vision came to Peter about the gentiles did any Jew understand what God was doing with the gentiles in relation to salvation outside the nations covenant of service on earth, Paul spoke of things also that were not understood untill after the Jew first was cut off, which concerned a covenant of promise made with the Father and Son before the foundation of the world and was hid in the mind of God and dealt with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, but every phase of ministery is mocked by those that are holding on to the old!
who mocked Christ, who mocked the twelve, who mocked Paul.
Theres a heaven all right and it was before the earth ever even existed which seems strange why so many want to erase it that cant see past the Jew first doctrine.

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Postby Bob the Quiet on Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:35 am

Who's 'erasing' Heaven? I don't think anyone in this discussion has denied that Heaven exists. The question is 'do we go to Heaven' and not 'does Heaven exist'.
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Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.
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