Rabbi Lapin on How Today's World Compares to the Days Noah

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Rabbi Lapin on How Today's World Compares to the Days Noah

Postby perigrini on Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:18 pm

Note: I actual article title is below...


"America's Rabbi" Warns: "Enormous, Humanic and Historic Upheaval" Rapidly Approaching


Interview with Rabbi Daniel Lapin on How Today's World Compares to the Days of Noah

By John-Henry Westen

WASHINGTON, DC, June 25, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The recent death of Mrs. Ruth Graham, the beloved wife of preacher Billy Graham, has caused renewed reflection on her oft quoted comment: "If God does not judge America soon, he'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah." Indeed, with the culture war raging on abortion and same-sex 'marriage', many a Christian has wondered about a coming purgation - a cleansing as in the time of Noah and the flood.

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It may come as a surprise to some, but Orthodox Jews too have a belief in a coming purgation. As the man popularly known as "America's Rabbi" told LifeSiteNews.com, we are "moving towards some kind of enormous, humanic and historic upheaval."

Nationally acclaimed speaker and best-selling author, Rabbi Daniel Lapin spoke with LifeSiteNews.com about his newly released audio series "The Gathering Storm: Decoding the Secrets of Noah", in which he looks at the similarities between the time of Noah and our present day.

Rabbi Lapin is the founder and leader of Toward Tradition - a ground-breaking coalition of Jews, Christians and other Americans united in fighting secular fundamentalism and promoting traditional, faith-based American principles of constitutional and limited government, the rule of law, representative democracy, free markets, a strong military, and a moral public culture.

Key to interpreting the Bible (the Old Testament) suggests the Rabbi, is the Hebrew language. In that language, he notes, the Bible tells that in the time just before the flood there were aborted babies. "Everyone is familiar with that section just before the flood, of giants," said Rabbi Lapin. "The King James translation refers to these people as giants - one thing, in the Hebrew, it becomes immediately very clear is that what we really are talking about is aborted people, aborted fetuses."

"In Hebrew," explained the Rabbi there is "one word for giants (and) aborted fetuses." Comparing the time of Noah to the current day, the Rabbi said, "Babies that are aborted eventually bring about a culture of death that destroys society."

Asked if Jews, like some Christians, feel a time of purgation is coming, Rabbi Lapin replied bluntly, "Yes, it is extremely intense."

The Rabbi stressed however that a Judeo-Christian view of the end of time is a hopeful one, in contrast to the secular view of the end of time which sees only doom and gloom. "There is a dichotomy here between a secular world view in which the end of time is hopeless," Rabbi Lapin told LifeSiteNews.com. "It is doomed. It ends in oblivion . . . Right now it is global warming, a few years ago it was nuclear winter. Before that it was that we were all going to starve and die naked and cold when Thomas Malthus at the end of the 18th century made his predictions."

"The secular world view will generate an end of time picture of hopelessness and doom and by contrast a Biblical world view of both Jews and Christians shows an end of time picture that, while it may have its turbulent threshold, is a time of some kind of unimaginable solution to all human problems."

Asked, if it would be "a time of renewal of goodness on earth?," the Rabbi replied, "Exactly right. Yes."

As for God having to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah for not acting on America for its sins, Rabbi Lapin suggests God is in fact acting on America. "God doesn't necessarily act towards every culture in the same way," he said. "Every culture that adopts abortion and homosexuality as normal is a culture that begins to decline and eventually vanish off the stage of world history - that is God acting."

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"That is precisely the point. It is not that hard to see in many ways the fortunes of the US of A are simply not where they were before these twin scourges became prevalent. Yes, He is acting - He is not going to have to apologize to Sodom at all. He is being very consistent. He may not be burying us in thunderbolts and mountains of salt but the damage that the US of A is enduring is no less fatal."

Rabbi Lapin sees another striking similarity between our day and the time of the Biblical flood. Noting the political situation in the United States, where the major argumentation seems focussed on abortion and same-sex 'marriage, Rabbi Lapin observes: "Undoubtedly, it was very significant, that never before in a presidential election has there been this much focus on the faith and beliefs of the candidates which again brings us back to this Noah like period in which divisions between people are lining up very clearly on a spiritual level."

While Rabbi Lapin rejects any attempt to fix a date on the coming upheaval, he does say that it is rapidly approaching. "What is unquestionably crystal clear is that time and history is accelerating. Things happen more quickly now than ever before so it is moving rapidly towards this event, whatever it will look like."

source: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jun/07062505.html
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Postby Grets Sirob on Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:36 am

"As in the days of Noah..."

So what should we do? What are true followers of Christ to do in this time to combat all the lies? Can we? People are so blind to the truth... Claiming a form of holiness, but denying its author.

There's a huge battle going on around us all... How do we fight in it?
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Postby carpentersdaughter on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:35 am

We fight this battle, one battle at a time, in the place where God has put us.

If you are a Mother, then your battle will be for your children.

If you are out in the workplace, then this is where your battlefield is.

If you belong to some club, meaning garden club, or such, then this is where your battlefield is.

If you have neighbors that don't believe, then this is where your battle is.

We all live and work and play in this world, and we do battle right where God has placed us.

Thank God we know the end of this story.
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Postby proparent on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:36 am

Stand strong and don't give in. Immerse yourself in His word. Speak the truth when you can, and pray always.

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Postby Skywalker2B on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:37 am

Grets, Jack Kinsella (The Omega Letter) wrote about this too, here: http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=6100

What do we do? We pray. For our country. For our country's leaders. We take part in our government by telling our leaders how we want to be represented, how we want them to vote...for us, as our representative. We do what God/Jesus commanded us to do...go forth and preach the Gospel. The days are drawing short. Our time to spread the Word is coming to an end. Spead God's word of truth and love and pray for the Holy Spirit to work in people's hearts, to soften them, to convict them, and to turn their hearts to Christ. That, my brother in Christ, is what we need to be doing.

P.S. I hate the traffic here in NoVA too. ;)
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More Similarities

Postby Sh'eilah on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:44 am

On Friday I put this information under the topic "Middle East Nightmare." It seemed a good idea to post it here as well:

Remember Jesus said, "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." Matthew 24:37

That comparison becomes more interesting when you read Genesis 6:11 very carefully. You will find it says "the earth was filled with violence."

The word translated "violence" in that verse - is actually "hamas!"
http://www.globalisraelalliance.com/
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... _Index.htm

Makes you think, doesn't it?

More and more similarities to the Days of Noah!
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Postby Schmize on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:45 am

I really did not get his discussion on giants. What in the world was he talking about? Not clear at all. Can anyone help?

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Giants

Postby Sh'eilah on Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:05 am

I haven't had time to read his whole post, and I have to be somewhere in 10 minutes; but I think the reference to giants is about this part of the Biblical account of the Flood:

Genesis
6:1 When humankind 1 began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born 2 to them, 3 6:2 the sons of God 4 saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose. 6:3 So the Lord said, “My spirit will not remain in 5 humankind indefinitely, 6 since 7 they 8 are mortal. 9 They 10 will remain for 120 more years.” 11

6:4 The Nephilim 12 were on the earth in those days (and also after this) 13 when the sons of God were having sexual relations with 14 the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. 15 They were the mighty heroes 16 of old, the famous men. 17

6:5 But the Lord saw 18 that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination 19 of the thoughts 20 of their minds 21 was only evil 22 all the time. 23 6:6 The Lord regretted 24 that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended. 25 6:7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – everything from humankind to animals, 26 including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them.”

6:8 But 27 Noah found favor 28 in the sight of 29 the Lord.
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Commentary Notes (from the Net Bible)

4 sn The Hebrew phrase translated “sons of God” (בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים, bÿne-ha’elohim) occurs only here (Gen 6:2, 4) and in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. There are three major interpretations of the phrase here. (1) In the Book of Job the phrase clearly refers to angelic beings. In Gen 6 the “sons of God” are distinct from “humankind,” suggesting they were not human. This is consistent with the use of the phrase in Job. Since the passage speaks of these beings cohabiting with women, they must have taken physical form or possessed the bodies of men. An early Jewish tradition preserved in 1 En. 6-7 elaborates on this angelic revolt and even names the ringleaders. (2) Not all scholars accept the angelic interpretation of the “sons of God,” however. Some argue that the “sons of God” were members of Seth’s line, traced back to God through Adam in Gen 5, while the “daughters of humankind” were descendants of Cain. But, as noted above, the text distinguishes the “sons of God” from humankind (which would include the Sethites as well as the Cainites) and suggests that the “daughters of humankind” are human women in general, not just Cainites. (3) Others identify the “sons of God” as powerful tyrants, perhaps demon-possessed, who viewed themselves as divine and, following the example of Lamech (see Gen 4:19), practiced polygamy. But usage of the phrase “sons of God” in Job militates against this view. For literature on the subject see G. J. Wenham, Genesis (WBC), 1:135.

...................
12 tn The Hebrew word נְפִילִים (nÿfilim) is simply transliterated here, because the meaning of the term is uncertain. According to the text, the Nephilim became mighty warriors and gained great fame in the antediluvian world. The text may imply they were the offspring of the sexual union of the “sons of God” and the “daughters of humankind” (v. 2), but it stops short of saying this in a direct manner. The Nephilim are mentioned in the OT only here and in Num 13:33, where it is stated that they were giants (thus KJV, TEV, NLT “giants” here). The narrator observes that the Anakites of Canaan were descendants of the Nephilim. Certainly these later Anakite Nephilim could not be descendants of the antediluvian Nephilim (see also the following note on the word “this”).

13 tn This observation is parenthetical, explaining that there were Nephilim even after the flood. If all humankind, with the exception of Noah and his family, died in the flood, it is difficult to understand how the postdiluvian Nephilim could be related to the antediluvian Nephilim or how the Anakites of Canaan could be their descendants (see Num 13:33). It is likely that the term Nephilim refers generally to “giants” (see HALOT 709 s.v. נְפִילִים) without implying any ethnic connection between the antediluvian and postdiluvian varieties.

14 tn Heb “were entering to,” referring euphemistically to sexual intercourse here. The Hebrew imperfect verbal form draws attention to the ongoing nature of such sexual unions during the time before the flood.

15 tn Heb “and they gave birth to them.” The masculine plural suffix “them” refers to the “sons of God,” to whom the “daughters of humankind” bore children. After the Qal form of the verb יָלָד (yalad, “to give birth”) the preposition לְ (lÿ, “to”) introduces the father of the child(ren). See Gen 16:1, 15; 17:19, 21; 21:2-3, 9; 22:23; 24:24, 47; 25:2, etc.

16 tn The parenthetical/explanatory clause uses the word הַגִּבֹּרִים (haggibborim) to describe these Nephilim. The word means “warriors; mighty men; heroes.” The appositional statement further explains that they were “men of renown.” The text refers to superhuman beings who held the world in their power and who lived on in ancient lore outside the Bible. See E. A. Speiser, Genesis (AB), 45-46; C. Westermann, Genesis, 1:379-80; and Anne D. Kilmer, “The Mesopotamian Counterparts of the Biblical Nephilim,” Perspectives on Language and Text, 39-43.

...................
My thoughts:

If you consider these beings to be fallen angels, it is not difficult at all to understand why they were still around after the Flood. I believe the Rabbi is saying the word used for "giants" is the same Hebrew word used for "aborted fetuses."

That puts a whole new twist on things, of which I was unaware. I will do some more research later, and see if anything new turns up.

This information came from the Net Bible, which you can read online at
http://net.bible.org/
The reference numbers did not copy very well, but I think you can make sense out of it.

Let me know if this is helpful, OK?
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Postby Schmize on Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:29 am

"Aborted fetuses"...do you mean the current hebrew word for this or the anchient hebrew word for this.


My confusion is whether or not abortions were being done back then and we just think there were giants running around because of translation problems or if it is just the use of the same anchient hebrew word today to label a new sinful behavior, abortions, going on today.

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Postby water on Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:08 am

Schmize wrote:"Aborted fetuses"...do you mean the current hebrew word for this or the anchient hebrew word for this.


My confusion is whether or not abortions were being done back then and we just think there were giants running around because of translation problems or if it is just the use of the same anchient hebrew word today to label a new sinful behavior, abortions, going on today.

glen


If I understood the rabbi correctly, I think he was saying that in Hebrew, the same word can mean both giants and abortions, but in the context of the other Hebrew words, he thinks it meant abortions.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:27 am

This whole idea has me :dizzy: If giants and aborted fetus's mean the same thing, then how did they become renowned, and what about David and Goliath? I am completely lost on this one! :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Postby Schmize on Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:57 am

Lookfortruth said it for me. A word that means both just does not make sense to me.

Men who were aborted don't become famous.

Now for the question at hand. Did abortions take plce back then? I think the bible is the place to go for that and I see no evidence of such sin. Though children were murdered after thier birth. Look at Moses' and Jesus' birth stories. At the very least it is not mentioned in the text. So, to answer the question about abortions in the ancient peoples, one cannot say for sure.

In my opinion, pregnancy abortion is a relatively new thing. Many now seek it for an "easy out" of responsibility of having sexual relations when they should not be.

I do not stand in judgement of the behavior. I simply state a position.

To me the "Giants" in the OT refers to exactly that, Giant men. It is to be taken literally. For evidence that they are still arround look at today's basketball players. They are enormous.

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Postby Lookfortruth on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:10 am

Schmize, The more I think about this, the more I wonder if Aborted fetus's could be another mistranslation. Perhaps what the giants and aborted fetus's have in common, is they both were death in the womb.....I would think that if women were impregnated by another DNA than human, perhaps it would not have any spirit like it would if it was God who breathed the life into it..... In that case, all the technology now in the end times with injecting all kinds of animal DNA into human cells (strange flesh) could be like in the days of Noah.That is the only sense I could possibly make out of that conclusion.
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More References on the Giants

Postby Sh'eilah on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:40 am

Considering the expression "heroes of old, men of renown" I don't believe the word in context in Genesis refers to fetuses. But I think Candy may have hit on a common word meaning that may shed some light on this.

Actually, I have often wondered if some of the "heroes" of Greek mythology (such as Hercules) could have an explanation in this verse. Mythology seems often to be based in some truth.

The story of the 12 spies sent into Canaan to scout out the land sheds some light on this subject as well. There they met "giants" to whom they appeared "as grasshoppers," and this frightened them enough to give a bad report that they would not be able to take the land. The giants were described by these spies as "Nephilim," "descendants of the Nephilim," or perhaps both.

NET BIBLE
Numbers 13:21-25
13:21 So they went up and investigated the land from the wilderness of Zin to Rehob, 17 at the entrance of Hamath. 18 13:22 When they went up through the Negev, they 19 came 20 to Hebron where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, 21 descendants of Anak, were living. (Now Hebron had been built seven years before Zoan 22 in Egypt.) 13:23 When they came to the valley of Eshcol, they cut down from there a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they carried it on a staff 23 between two men, as well as some of the pomegranates and the figs. 13:24 That place was called 24 the Eshcol Valley, 25 because of the cluster 26 of grapes that the Israelites cut from there. 13:25 They returned from investigating the land after forty days.
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Net Bible Notes

18 tn The idiom uses the infinitive construct: “to enter Hamath,” meaning, “on the way that people go to Hamath.”

19 tc The MT has the singular, but the ancient versions and Smr have the plural.

20 tn The preterite with vav (ו) consecutive is here subordinated to the following clause. The first verse gave the account of their journey over the whole land; this section focuses on what happened in the area of Hebron, which would be the basis for the false report.

21 sn These names are thought to be three clans that were in the Hebron area (see Josh 15:14; Judg 1:20). To call them descendants of Anak is usually taken to mean that they were large or tall people (2 Sam 21:18-22). They were ultimately driven out by Caleb.

22 sn The text now provides a brief historical aside for the readers. Zoan was probably the city of Tanis, although that is disputed today by some scholars. It was known in Egypt in the New Kingdom as “the fields of Tanis,” which corresponded to the “fields of Zoar” in the Hebrew Bible (Ps 78:12, 43).

23 tn The word is related etymologically to the verb for “slip, slide, bend, totter.” This would fit the use very well. A pole that would not bend would be hard to use to carry things, but a pole or stave that was flexible would serve well.

24 tn The verb is rendered as a passive because there is no expressed subject.

25 tn Or “Wadi Eshcol.” The translation “brook” is too generous; the Hebrew term refers to a river bed, a ravine or valley through which torrents of rain would rush in the rainy season; at other times it might be completely dry.

26 tn The word “Eshcol” is drawn from the Hebrew expression concerning the “cluster of grapes.” The word is probably retained in the name Burj Haskeh, two miles north of Damascus.
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Numbers 13:30-33
13:30 Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses, saying, “Let us go up 37 and occupy it, 38 for we are well able to conquer it.” 39 13:31 But the men 40 who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against these people, because they are stronger than we are!” 13:32 Then they presented the Israelites with a discouraging 41 report of the land they had investigated, saying, “The land that we passed through 42 to investigate is a land that devours 43 its inhabitants. 44 All the people we saw there 45 are of great stature. 13:33 We even saw the Nephilim 46 there (the descendants of Anak came from the Nephilim), and we seemed liked grasshoppers both to ourselves 47 and to them.” 48
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Net Bible Notes
37 tn The construction is emphatic, using the cohortative with the infinitive absolute to strengthen it: עָלֹה נַעֲלֶה (’aloh na’aleh, “let us go up”) with the sense of certainty and immediacy.

38 tn The perfect tense with vav (ו) consecutive brings the cohortative idea forward: “and let us possess it”; it may also be subordinated to form a purpose or result idea.

39 tn Here again the confidence of Caleb is expressed with the infinitive absolute and the imperfect tense: יָכוֹל נוּכַל (yakhol nukhal), “we are fully able” to do this. The verb יָכַל (yakhal) followed by the preposition lamed means “to prevail over, to conquer.”

40 tn The vav (ו) disjunctive on the noun at the beginning of the clause forms a strong adversative clause here.

41 tn Or “an evil report,” i.e., one that was a defamation of the grace of God.

42 tn Heb “which we passed over in it”; the pronoun on the preposition serves as a resumptive pronoun for the relative, and need not be translated literally.

43 tn The verb is the feminine singular participle from אָכַל (’akhal); it modifies the land as a “devouring land,” a bold figure for the difficulty of living in the place.

44 sn The expression has been interpreted in a number of ways by commentators, such as that the land was infertile, that the Canaanites were cannibals, that it was a land filled with warlike dissensions, or that it denotes a land geared for battle. It may be that they intended the land to seem infertile and insecure.

45 tn Heb “in its midst.”

46 tc The Greek version uses gigantes (“giants”) to translate “the Nephilim,” but it does not retain the clause “the sons of Anak are from the Nephilim.”

sn The Nephilim are the legendary giants of antiquity. They are first discussed in Gen 6:4. This forms part of the pessimism of the spies’ report.

47 tn Heb “in our eyes.”

48 tn Heb “in their eyes.”
__________

It may be TMI (too much information!) but I included ALL the reference notes for these verses. Some are not related, and others add a point here and there to the context.

Another reference to these beings is in Deuteronomy 1:28, and still more are in the stories in I. Samuel about David killing Goliath and his brothers, who were also called giants.

We probably will not know for sure who they were until the Lord returns, but it is likely - in my opinion - that they were not human. Otherwise it IS hard to explain why they were present "on the earth in those days," as stated in Genesis 6:4 "both before and after" the Flood.

Obviously, they were not Noah's family, and they were not saved from the Flood by God. It makes more sense to me that they were, indeed, demonic.

Perhaps it is not related, but it is also interesting that the report of the spies is said to have occurred near the end of July - and that the grapes they brought back were from the area near Damascus! It makes me want to watch Syria very carefully this year!

NET BIBLE
Numbers
13:20 and whether the land is rich or poor, and whether or not there are forests in it. And be brave, 14 and bring back some of the fruit of the land.” Now it was the time of year 15 for the first ripe grapes. 16
-------------------------
Net Bible Notes

15 tn Heb “Now the days were the days of.”

16 sn The reference to the first ripe grapes would put the time somewhere at the end of July.
__________

Let me know if this helps, or just makes your brain hurt, OK?
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Postby Schmize on Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:00 am

OOOWWW.


:dizzy:

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Postby Mttw633 on Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:59 am

Sheila,

First of all, wlcome! Thanks for posting! I've thought that very same thing about giants/nephilim being the greek gods...
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:18 pm

Interesting discussion! I think I'll move it to the Bible Study forum. :grin:
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Postby Sh'eilah on Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:24 pm

The Net Bible and its Translation Notes are a little INTENSE, to say the least. Probably they are for more in-depth study, and I hope I didn't overwhelm anyone with the copy/paste from that source.

It's actually a lot more fun to read online at http://net.bible.org/ or in the printed version which I usually use.

Obviously, I have some opinions mostly based on the phrases in Genesis; but in NO WAY do I mean mean to imply that I understand this subject fully! As I said, it is probably something we won't really get until the Lord returns.

It's just fun to research. At least for weirdo types like me who ENJOY spending 12 hours a day in a book on my day off!

Didn't mean to give anyone a headache!
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Postby BKF on Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:40 pm

Chuck Missler has some interesting articles on the subject of Fallen Angels and the Nephilim.

This one is titled "As The Days of Noah Were"
http://www.khouse.org/articles/1996/43/
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Postby perigrini on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:08 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Interesting discussion! I think I'll move it to the Bible Study forum. :grin:

LOL...that's the kiss of death to a thread, ya know?


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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:28 pm

I have faith that it will survive.... :wink: (has a good foundation)
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Postby Lookfortruth on Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:32 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:I have faith that it will survive.... :wink: (has a good foundation)

:a3:
You know it would get buried in the news thread very fast Peri. :wink:
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Postby perigrini on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:38 pm

Lookfortruth wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:I have faith that it will survive.... :wink: (has a good foundation)

:a3:
You know it would get buried in the news thread very fast Peri. :wink:

I'm only kidding...well, partly. Sadly, the biblestudy forum isn't the most visited...so what does that mean/say?

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Postby Lookfortruth on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:46 pm

It means we need to liven it up Peri! :grin: :a3:
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Postby perigrini on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:56 pm

:banana: :banana: :banana: :alrighty: :lalala: :lalala: :raspberry: :praise: :praise: :praise:
:bag: :southernbelle: :3jump: :3jump: :cheer: :cheer: :tongue:

There, how's that for entertaining?!

That's probably more emoticons than I've used in all my previous posts put together...that has to be something to behold!

perigrini :whistle:
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Postby Lookfortruth on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:57 pm

So I will start, as I posed my questions....let us explore on this topic. It is a very significant study for the times we are in.....
"As in the days of Noah, so shall it be in those times" This is a very big clue for those of us who are looking for markers of the end times. This is our heart, or we would not be at FP. We need to study what the Days of Noah reveals. What does the bible say about that time? We know, that the Nephalim have been mentioned in the bible as being on the earth, and afterwards. That is only one aspect of describing the "days of Noah" that is also the focus of the study here, in this thread. There are many others, and we need to make a study of them, in this forum. I will tell you what Peri, I am willing to commit to the study of what "days of Noah" means. Will you join me? Let's just start it and maybe some will join us, but no matter what....let's do it. Deal? :grin:
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Postby Lookfortruth on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:58 pm

perigrini wrote::banana: :banana: :banana: :alrighty: :lalala: :lalala: :raspberry: :praise: :praise: :praise:
:bag: :southernbelle: :3jump: :3jump: :cheer: :cheer: :tongue:

There, how's that for entertaining?!

That's probably more emoticons than I've used in all my previous posts put together...that has to be something to behold!


perigrini :whistle:

Peri!!!!!! You just go for it. :grin: Bring it on!
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Postby perigrini on Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:59 pm

Well, that and I thought this article was interesting in it's own right. To see a Jew refer to the "days of Noah" when talking about huge coming events is striking. As is his contention that the hebrew word for giant is the same as abortion. I wonder if there is some way other than context to identify which meaning is intended.


And in response to somene who mused about ancient abortions...yes, they did do them. They used a watered down version of poison to prompt a miscarriage. As one might imagine...it isn't the safest thing to be doing.


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Postby Lookfortruth on Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:11 pm

Wow Peri, I believe that is true, after all, Solomon realized, there is nothing new under the sun. :a3:
I found this passage to be especially interesting my old friend....lets examine it.
1Pe 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
1Pe 3:21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 3:22 who is on the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I find this facinating, saved through water? Lets elaberate on this, if you will. I believe God never does his works without a message. How do you think he presented this statement for the future of the end time followers?
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Postby Lookfortruth on Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:58 am

:bag: Sorry Peri, I got excited when I started searching in the bible where it refers to the days of Noah. I don't want to get off topic here.
I am going to try to search in the new testament for any reference to the Giants of old. This might take some time, but as I find things, I will bring them here. I hope others will do the same. I have had many things that were unclear to me in the old testament, clarified in the new. :grin:
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Let's Study!

Postby Sh'eilah on Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:35 am

Peregrini,

I LOVE the way you liven things up!

To everyone,

Concerning a study of the Days of Noah, I'd also love to participate.

While it is difficult to find the original connotation of the words used, it is not that difficult to research the word origins, even if you don't know Hebrew. Here are a couple of links that might help us clarify things.
Hebrew Interlinear Bible
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... _Index.htm
Hebrew Traditions and Study of Judaism
http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm
http://www.jewishrootsinstitute.org/

If we all look at this, from our different perspectives, who knows?

It is true "there's nothing new under the sun," but there is often something new to me!

Anticipating,

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Postby Lookfortruth on Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:39 am

Okay, I have to leave to take hubby to the Dr, so I will post what I have so far. I could not really find anything discussing Nephalim in the new testament, but I pulled the strongs reference to the important words in these scriptures. Let me know if it is hard to follow, this is only a rough draft, and I know my train of thoughts are hard to follow! :lol: I will comment later on what I am understanding.
________________________________________________________
Gen 6:4 There were1961 giants5303 in the earth776 in those1992 days;3117 and also1571 after310 that,3651 when834 the sons1121 of God430 came in935 unto413 the daughters1323 of men,120 and they bore3205 children to them, the same1992 became mighty men1368 which834 were of old,4480, 5769 men376 of renown.8034
________________________________________________________


H5303
נפל נפיל
nephîyl nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H120
אדם
'âdâm
aw-dawm'
From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): - X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

H1368
גּבּר גּבּור
gibbôr gibbôr
ghib-bore', ghib-bore'
Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication warrior, tyrant: - champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man.

H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnîy minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

H376
אישׁ
'îysh
eesh
Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.
____________________________________________________________
1Sa 17:4 And there went out3318 a champion376, 1143 out of the camp4480, 4264 of the Philistines,6430 named8034 Goliath,1555 of Gath,4480, 1661 whose height1363 was six8337 cubits520 and a span.2239

1Sa 17:23 And as he1931 talked1696 with5973 them, behold,2009 there came up5927 the champion,376, 1143 the Philistine6430 of Gath,4480, 1661 Goliath1555 by name,8034 out of the armies4480, 4630 of the Philistines,6430 and spoke1696 according to the same428 words:1697 and David1732 heard8085 them.

_____________________________________________________________

H1363
גּבהּ
gôbahh
go'-bah
From H1361; elation, grandeur, arrogance: - excellency, haughty, height, high, loftiness, pride.


H520
אמּה
'ammâh
am-maw'
Prolonged from H517; properly a mother (that is, unit) of measure, or the forearm (below the elbow), that is, a cubit; also a door base (as a bond of the entrance): - cubit, + hundred [by exchange for H3967], measure, post.

H2239
זרת
zereth
zeh'-reth
From H2219; the spread of the fingers, that is, a span: - span.
_______________________________________________________________

1Ch 20:4 And it came to pass1961 after310 this,3651 that there arose5975 war4421 at Gezer1507 with5973 the Philistines;6430 at which time227 Sibbechai5444 the Hushathite2843 slew5221 (853) Sippai,5598 that was of the children4480, 3211 of the giant:7497 and they were subdued.3665
1Ch 20:5 And there was1961 war4421 again5750 with854 the Philistines;6430 and Elhanan445 the son1121 of Jair3265 slew5221 (853) Lahmi3902 the brother251 of Goliath1555 the Gittite,1663 whose spear2595 staff6086 was like a weaver's707 beam.4500
1Ch 20:6 And yet again5750 there was1961 war4421 at Gath,1661 where was1961 a man376 of great stature,4060 whose fingers and toes676 were four702 and twenty,6242 six8337 on each hand, and six8337 on each foot: and he1931 also1571 was the son3205 of the giant.7497
1Ch 20:7 But when he defied2778 (853) Israel,3478 Jonathan3083 the son1121 of Shimea8092 David's1732 brother251 slew5221 him.
1Ch 20:8 These411 were born3205 unto the giant7497 in Gath;1661 and they fell5307 by the hand3027 of David,1732 and by the hand3027 of his servants.5650

_____________________________________________________________


H7497
רפה רפא
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
From H7495 in the sense of invigorating; a giant: - giant, Rapha, Rephaim (-s). See also H1051.
_______________________________________________________________
Jos 12:4 And the coast1366 of Og5747 king4428 of Bashan,1316 which was of the remnant4480, 3499 of the giants,7497 that dwelt3427 at Ashtaroth6252 and at Edrei,154

Jos 13:12 All3605 the kingdom4468 of Og5747 in Bashan,1316 which834 reigned4427 in Ashtaroth6252 and in Edrei,154 who1931 remained7604 of the remnant4480, 3499 of the giants:7497 for these did Moses4872 smite,5221 and cast them out.3423

_______________________________________________________________


I started with Genesis, where it describes the Nephalim or giants in the land, and who they were. I also tried to show where different meanings can be used for the same word. Strongs shows how to read the context by the numbers.

The other main accounts of giants show up after the flood. It appears they are associated with certain bloodlines, and one passage describes physical abnormalties of a certain giant. It also seems a remnant of these were smitten and cast out by Moses, although it does not say they were extinct. I found no evidence that any of those words also have the same meaning of aborted fetus's.
David slew one of these Giants, and this was the only place I found that actually gave a measurement of size.

There was a land of the giants. :banana: (had to throw that in)
I can only find reference to them in the old testament so far, but I am still digging.


I am beginning to think the days of Noah only means that the wicked will act the same way they did then. And since they will not repent and listen to what is to befall mankind, they will find themselves in sudden destruction, with no way to escape.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:19 pm

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up5375 this2088 proverb4912 against5921 the king4428 of Babylon,894 and say,559 How349 hath the oppressor5065 ceased!7673 the golden city4062 ceased!7673
Isa 14:5 The LORD3068 hath broken7665 the staff4294 of the wicked,7563 and the scepter7626 of the rulers.4910
Isa 14:6 He who smote5221 the people5971 in wrath5678 with a continual stroke,1115, 5627, 4347 he that ruled7287 the nations1471 in anger,639 is persecuted,4783 and none1097 hindereth.2820
Isa 14:7 The whole3605 earth776 is at rest,5117 and is quiet:8252 they break forth6476 into singing.7440
Isa 14:8 Yea,1571 the fir trees1265 rejoice8055 at thee, and the cedars730 of Lebanon,3844 saying, Since4480, 227 thou art laid down,7901 no3808 feller3772 is come up5927 against5921 us.
Isa 14:9 Hell7585 from beneath4480, 8478 is moved7264 for thee to meet7122 thee at thy coming:935 it stirreth up5782 the dead7496 for thee, even all3605 the chief ones6260 of the earth;776 it hath raised up6965 from their thrones4480, 3678 all3605 the kings4428 of the nations.1471
Isa 14:10 All3605 they shall speak6030 and say559 unto thee, Art thou859 also1571 become weak2470 as we? art thou become like4911 unto413 us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp1347 is brought down3381 to the grave,7585 and the noise1998 of thy viols:5035 the worm7415 is spread3331 under8478 thee, and the worms8438 cover4374 thee.
Isa 14:12 How349 art thou fallen5307 from heaven,4480, 8064 O Lucifer,1966 son1121 of the morning!7837 how art thou cut down1438 to the ground,776 which didst weaken2522, 5921 the nations!1471
Isa 14:13 For thou859 hast said559 in thine heart,3824 I will ascend5927 into heaven,8064 I will exalt7311 my throne3678 above4480, 4605 the stars3556 of God:410 I will sit3427 also upon the mount2022 of the congregation,4150 in the sides3411 of the north:6828
Isa 14:14 I will ascend5927 above5921 the heights1116 of the clouds;5645 I will be like1819 the most High.5945
Isa 14:15 Yet389 thou shalt be brought down3381 to413 hell,7585 to413 the sides3411 of the pit.953
Isa 14:16 They that see7200 thee shall narrowly look7688 upon413 thee, and consider995 thee, saying, Is this2088 the man376 that made the earth776 to tremble,7264 that did shake7493 kingdoms;4467
Isa 14:17 That made7760 the world8398 as a wilderness,4057 and destroyed2040 the cities5892 thereof; that opened6605 not3808 the house1004 of his prisoners?615
Isa 14:18 All3605 the kings4428 of the nations,1471 even all3605 of them, lie7901 in glory,3519 every one376 in his own house.1004
Isa 14:19 But thou859 art cast7993 out of thy grave4480, 6913 like an abominable8581 branch,5342 and as the raiment3830 of those that are slain,2026 thrust through2944 with a sword,2719 that go down3381 to413 the stones68 of the pit;953 as a carcass6297 trodden under feet.947
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not3808 be joined3161 with854 them in burial,6900 because3588 thou hast destroyed7843 thy land,776 and slain2026 thy people:5971 the seed2233 of evildoers7489 shall never3808, 5769 be renowned.7121
Isa 14:21 Prepare3559 slaughter4293 for his children1121 for the iniquity5771 of their fathers;1 that they do not1077 rise,6965 nor possess3423 the land,776 nor fill4390 the face6440 of the world8398 with cities.5892
Isa 14:22 For I will rise up6965 against5921 them, saith5002 the LORD3068 of hosts,6635 and cut off3772 from Babylon894 the name,8034 and remnant,7605 and son,5209 and nephew,5220 saith5002 the LORD.3068
Isa 14:23 I will also make7760 it a possession4180 for the bittern,7090 and pools98 of water:4325 and I will sweep2894 it with the broom4292 of destruction,8045 saith5002 the LORD3068 of hosts.6635
Isa 14:24 The LORD3068 of hosts6635 hath sworn,7650 saying,559 Surely518, 3808 as834 I have thought,1819 so3651 shall it come to pass;1961 and as834 I have purposed,3289 so shall it1931 stand:6965
Isa 14:25 That I will break7665 the Assyrian804 in my land,776 and upon5921 my mountains2022 tread him under foot:947 then shall his yoke5923 depart5493 from off4480, 5921 them, and his burden5448 depart5493 from off4480, 5921 their shoulders.7926
Isa 14:26 This2063 is the purpose6098 that is purposed3289 upon5921 the whole3605 earth:776 and this2063 is the hand3027 that is stretched out5186 upon5921 all3605 the nations.1471
Isa 14:27 For3588 the LORD3068 of hosts6635 hath purposed,3289 and who4310 shall disannul6565 it? and his hand3027 is stretched out,5186 and who4310 shall turn it back?7725
Isa 14:28 In the year8141 that king4428 Ahaz271 died4194 was1961 this2088 burden.4853
Isa 14:29 Rejoice8055 not408 thou, whole3605 Philistia,6429 because3588 the rod7626 of him that3588 smote5221 thee is broken:7665 for out of the serpent's root4480, 8328, 5175 shall come forth3318 a cockatrice,6848 and his fruit6529 shall be a fiery flying serpent.8314, 5774
Isa 14:30 And the firstborn1060 of the poor1800 shall feed,7462 and the needy34 shall lie down7257 in safety:983 and I will kill4191 thy root8328 with famine,7458 and he shall slay2026 thy remnant.7611
Isa 14:31 Howl,3213 O gate;8179 cry,2199 O city;5892 thou, whole3605 Philistia,6429 art dissolved:4127 for3588 there shall come935 from the north4480, 6828 a smoke,6227 and none369 shall be alone909 in his appointed times.4151
Isa 14:32 What4100 shall one then answer6030 the messengers4397 of the nation?1471 That3588 the LORD3068 hath founded3245 Zion,6726 and the poor6041 of his people5971 shall trust2620 in it.
____________________________
H3772
כּרת
kârath
kaw-rath'
A primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume; specifically to covenant (that is, make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces): - be chewed, be con- [feder-] ate, covenant, cut (down, off), destroy, fail, feller, be freed, hew (down), make a league ([covenant]), X lose, perish, X utterly, X want.

H6260
עתּד עתּוּד
‛attûd ‛attûd
at-tood', at-tood'
From H6257; prepared, that is, full grown; spoken only (in plural) of he goats, or (figuratively) leaders of the people: - chief one, (he) goat, ram.

H376
אישׁ
'îysh
eesh
Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.
______________



The following strong numbers refer to the bold scriptures:


H6429
פּלשׁת
pelesheth
pel-eh'-sheth
From H6428; rolling, that is, migratory; Pelesheth, a region of Syria: - Palestina, Palestine, Philistia, Philistines.

H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnîy minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

H8328
שׁרשׁ
sheresh
sheh'-resh
From H8327; a root (literally or figuratively): - bottom, deep, heel, root.

H5175
נחשׁ
nâchâsh
naw-khawsh'
From H5172; a snake (from its hiss): - serpent.

H6848
צפעני צפע
tsepha‛ tsiph‛ônîy
tseh'-fah, tsif-o-nee'
From an unused root meaning to extrude; a viper (as thrusting out the tongue, that is, hissing): - adder, cockatrice

H6529
פּרי
perîy
per-ee'
From H6509; fruit (literally or figuratively): - bough, ([first-]) fruit ([-ful]), reward.

H8314
שׂרף
śârâph
saw-rawf'
From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color): - fiery (serpent), seraph.

H6828
צפן צפון
tsâphôn tsâphôn
tsaw-fone', tsaw-fone'
From H6845; properly hidden, that is, dark; used only of the north as a quarter (gloomy and unknown): - north (-ern, side, -ward, wind).
____________________________________________________________
I was searching for information that might indicate there were Nephelim in the end times, and I stumbled on this. This whole chapter seems to parallel the end times. I have bolded the vs that is particularly interesting.
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Thanks, lookfortruth

Postby Sh'eilah on Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:29 am

Candy,

It's nice to know I'm not the only one on the Forum who LOVES detailed information like this.

I was hoping I hadn't driven everyone nuts with it.

This is pretty fascinating. I never saw that reference before, although I know I've read the chapter at least a dozen times. Funny how things seem new each time you read them in the Word, isn't it?

Thanks for the information.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:35 am

Thank you Sheila, I am just starting to learn how to reference things. :mrgreen:
I hope I can learn how to consolidate them in an easy to understand format, But this is for sure making me dig very deep, and that is good for me. :banana:
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Postby Lookfortruth on Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:39 am

Oh, I forgot to say. I started using the ASB, which is similar to the KJV with strongs to word study (it is easier than my McReynolds greek word study) But I generally read my NASB for a little easier grasp of the whole picture. I like having the strongs numbers by each word, although it it hard to read at first, you get used to it after awhile. :mrgreen:
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Root Word Study

Postby Sh'eilah on Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:08 pm

Candy,

This will help establish some of the syntax of Hebrew.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/

Although I certainly don't consider this site infallible, it is interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

word origin
Hebrew word "nephal" means "to fall" or "fallen."
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule ... mroot.html

Just a few thoughts.
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Versions

Postby Sh'eilah on Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:15 pm

I most often use the Complete Jewish Bible, English version, translated by David Stern. It has OT books in the Jewish order, and substitutes English phonetic transliterations for Hebrew names of people, places and concepts. In the notes, it explains Jewish traditions and focuses on Messianic prophecies.

Also frequently referenced in our home are:

The Net Bible (available to read, online, as well as in print)
The Daily Bible (NIV) (in chronological order of events, so far as possible)
Greek and Hebrew Interlinears (for syntax, context, and root words)
Amplified
Revised Standard
American Standard
King James

When we do family Bible studies with the four kids left at home, usually most of these are represented.

In case you're wondering, my husband and I have seven kids in all - all ours.
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Postby Lookfortruth on Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:08 pm

In case you're wondering, my husband and I have seven kids in all - all ours.
:shock:
I think one of the wonderful things about FP, is not having to have all those books! :lol:
I have a greek word study, NIV, KJV, NASB, Zondervan bible software, Smiths bible dictionary, the complete family bible reference (with dictionary, condordance, and index) and Esword. :banana: :banana: :banana:
I am just starting to learn how to use them all! :lol:
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Postby Lookfortruth on Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:57 pm

Okay, it is late, and I have to get to bed, but I was noticing there are nephalin (offspring of the fallen angels), and Rephaim (offspring of the Nephalim ?)
H7497
רפה רפא
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
From H7495 in the sense of invigorating; a giant: - giant, Rapha, Rephaim (-s). See also H1051.
1Ch 20:8 These411 were born3205 unto the giant7497 in Gath;1661 and they fell5307 by the hand3027 of David,1732 and by the hand3027 of his servants.5650

Now this is interesting, in light of this vs
Isa 14:29 Rejoice8055 not408 thou, whole3605 Philistia,6429 because3588 the rod7626 of him that3588 smote5221 thee is broken:7665 for out of the serpent's root4480, 8328, 5175 shall come forth3318 a cockatrice,6848 and his fruit6529 shall be a fiery flying serpent.8314, 5774


So is this saying that the serpents root will produce a cockatrice
H6848
צפעני צפע
tsepha‛ tsiph‛ônîy
tseh'-fah, tsif-o-nee'
From an unused root meaning to extrude; a viper (as thrusting out the tongue, that is, hissing): - adder, cockatrice





his fruit6529 shall be a fiery flying serpent.8314, 5774


H8314
שׂרף
śârâph
saw-rawf'
From H8313; burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color): - fiery (serpent), seraph.

serpent's root
H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnîy minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.


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