The Timetable of the Two Witnesses - Repost for OBXBob

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The Timetable of the Two Witnesses - Repost for OBXBob

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:41 am

Hi Bob,

I couldn't find the original thread, but this is a re-posting of the material. Following is the only Scripturally based specific timing sequence I have ever been able to find of the end times events:

Revelation 11:3 “And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:7 “And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them.” LITV

In Revelation 11 we are told of two witnesses who prophecy for 1260 days. During this time, fire comes from their mouths to devour anyone who would try to hurt them. They can send any plague on the earth anytime they want. When they have finished their testimony, the beast from the bottomless pit (this is the beast that Mystery Babylon rides, with 10 horns which are 10 kings – Rev. 17:8, 12) will kill them. They will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days, then come back to life and ascend into heaven. In the same hour there will be a great earthquake, and following this, we are told that the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly. In Revelation 8:13, following the sounding of the fourth trumpet, we are told of an angel declaring 3 woes of the 3 remaining trumpets, which will sound.

Revelation 13 speaks of the beast from the sea, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and upon his head 10 crowns. This same description is given of the beast that Babylon rides (Rev. 17), which we are told in Rev. 17:8 ascends out of the bottomless pit, which is locked until the fifth trumpet is sounded. Compare this beast with the one described by Daniel in Dan. 7:19-21. Each has 10 horns which are 10 kings.

The beast from the sea, in Revelation 13:5-7, is given power to continue for forty-two months, during which time he makes war with the saints and overcomes them. Daniel also gives this prophecy in Daniel 7:25 “and they (the saints) are given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time (a year, 2 years, and half a year).”

The two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days, until their testimony is done, and then they are overcome by the beast (Rev. 11:7). According to Daniel 7:21-22, the beast, whose 10 horns are 10 kings, prevails over the saints until the Ancient of Days comes, and the kingdom is given to the saints. The duration that the beast overcomes the saints is 3 1/2 years, or 42 months (Dan 7:25, Rev. 13:3-5). Jesus returns to earth to establish His rule, which the saints will share, at the end of the 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27, Rev. 20:4). If the beast overcomes the saints for 3 1/2 years ending at the Second Coming, and the two witnesses prophesy for 3 1/2 years until the beast overcomes them, then they must be prophesying during the first 3 1/2 years.

The first woe is the fifth trumpet, a plague of “locusts” from the abyss. The second woe is the sounding of the sixth trumpet loosing 4 angels bound at the Euphrates to kill 1/3 of mankind, and 200,000,000 ‘horsemen’ with power to kill. In Rev. 9:11, following the fifth trumpet, we are told that the first woe is past, and two more are coming. In Revelation 11:14, “the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly”. These judgments are happening sequentially, one finishing before the next begins. If the second woe is passed 3 1/2 days after the middle of the Tribulation, when the two witnesses ascend to heaven, the first woe, or the fifth trumpet, begins 5 months or more before the midpoint. Therefore, the seals are opened and first six trumpets are sounded prior to three and one half days after the middle of the tribulation.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby OBXBob on Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:09 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for opening this!

You wrote:

If the beast overcomes the saints for 3 1/2 years ending at the Second Coming, and the two witnesses prophesy for 3 1/2 years until the beast overcomes them, then they must be prophesying during the first 3 1/2 years.


And this is where our opinions differ.

You assume the 3.5 year period of the two witnesses differs from the 3.5 years the A/C is empowered. On the other hand, I believe these are the same 3.5 years, or with very little overlap.

Let's look at what the two witnesses will be 'responsible for' in the eyes of the world...

Revelation 11:

6. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7. Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9. For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.


Compare this with:

Revelation 8:

7. The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
8. The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood,
9. a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
10. The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water--
11. the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
12. The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.
13. As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"

Definitely looks like these are the plagues referenced back to the two witnesses!

I think we're in agreement so far!

It's always good to have good road signs that tell us where we are on any journey. Here is a road sign that I always use as a benchmark in trying to fit in the timing of events in the Book of Revelation:

Matthew 24:

15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


So, when I bounce that off the conclusion you've drawn, I see a disconnect between this and the passages from Matthew 24:

The first woe is the fifth trumpet, a plague of “locusts” from the abyss. The second woe is the sounding of the sixth trumpet loosing 4 angels bound at the Euphrates to kill 1/3 of mankind, and 200,000,000 ‘horsemen’ with power to kill. In Rev. 9:11, following the fifth trumpet, we are told that the first woe is past, and two more are coming. In Revelation 11:14, “the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly”. These judgments are happening sequentially, one finishing before the next begins. If the second woe is passed 3 1/2 days after the middle of the Tribulation, when the two witnesses ascend to heaven, the first woe, or the fifth trumpet, begins 5 months or more before the midpoint. Therefore, the seals are opened and first six trumpets are sounded prior to three and one half days after the middle of the tribulation.


Jesus tells us:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


IMO, if there ever was a time of great tribulation like the world had ever seen would definitely describe the trumpet judgments!

Such timing, placing the A/C coming onto the scene near the end of the trumpet judgments, would basically mean that the bowl judgments last nearly 3.5 years! I don't think this can be right!

As I see it (not to try to go over each of the following points individually), the first seal seal is the 'unveiling' of the A/C at the midpoint of the 70th week. The first 5 seals are opened in that final 3.5 years, in which time trumpet and bowl judgments come upon the earth. I believe it is the seals (nuclear war, associated nuclear winter, the trumpet, and the bowl judgments) comprise what Jesus is calling the great tribulation.

Thanks for continuing the discussion, Mark! It's always a pleasure to post with you, brother!

YBIC,


Bob
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Postby mark s on Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:38 pm

Hi Bob,

Happy to oblige, my brother!

I am of the opinion that the Bible describes mutually exclusive times of empowerment given to the two witnesses and the beast.

You have countered that the plagues the two witness have the power to send are the same plagues brought about by the sounding of the trumpets.

One difficulty I have with this is that the plagues of Revelation 8 are presented as being initiated by the sounding of the angel’s trumpets, not the initiation of the witnesses. Specific events are described with specific consequences. For instance:

Revelation 11:6. . . .and they have power to turn the waters into blood . . . (the witnesses turn the water into blood)

compared to

Revelation 8:8. The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, (at the sounding of the trumpet, a huge blazing mountain is thrown into the see and a third of it turns to blood)

The announcement says “woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"

These seem very different to me. Granted, both turn the water to blood, but it seems to me to come about by different means.

Concerning Matthew 24:21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, while the sixth trumpet announces the death of a third of humanity, Isaiah prophesies that man will be rare upon the face of the earth. While 2-3 billion may die during the trumpets, billions more may die during the Great Tribulation. While a third of the water turns to blood during the trumpets, it all becomes blood during the bowls.

But then, is Jesus actually referring to the plagues of judgment? He doesn’t seem to mention them during the Olivette Discourse. I think the Great Tribulation Jesus describes is the war of the dragon against the Jews, and against humanity. If He was referring to the judgments, He would not need to cut short the days, but would just stop sending plagues.

I think that the trumpets sound during the first half, then the bowls are poured out towards the end of the second half.

I realize that we make numerous inferrences, and try to match this with that, but the mutual exclusivity of the authority of the witnesses and the beast are to me the only actual text-based timeline. While it may seem that this happens then, and that happens when this happens, this is the only timeline I find actually stated.

Anyway, we’ve discussed this before, so I already know your views on this point. I hope that I have adequately clarified mine.

Always good to post with you!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:25 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the post!

You wrote:

Concerning Matthew 24:21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, while the sixth trumpet announces the death of a third of humanity, Isaiah prophesies that man will be rare upon the face of the earth. While 2-3 billion may die during the trumpets, billions more may die during the Great Tribulation. While a third of the water turns to blood during the trumpets, it all becomes blood during the bowls.


I suppose our difference in reading the road sign of Matthew 24:21 could make a lot of the difference in the way we translate the events / timing of the 70th week. According to the July 2007 world population estimate, there are 6.6 Billion people on the earth today. You believe 2-3 million dying by trumpets does not designate being part of great tribulation. There are only as 'few' as 3.6 Billion people left on earth, if 3 Billion are killed. I think to have 2 to 3 Billion people wiped off the face of the earth would be the worst tribulation the world has ever seen, and these events are likely part of the great tribulation. There will be up to half of the earth's population killed by seals 2,3,4, and after the trumpet judgments (depending of the interpretation one chooses for the 4th seal). If this is the case, it's hard to get much 'worse' than this (relative to the number killed) if there are to be any humans left on earth. This is why I put the seals, the trumpet judgments, and the bowl judgments in the final 3.5 years. I'm just trying to have all verses make logical sense with others. I realize you are doing the same thing, as you see is most logical, as well. This is what makes these discussion fun!

You wrote:
One difficulty I have with this is that the plagues of Revelation 8 are presented as being initiated by the sounding of the angel’s trumpets, not the initiation of the witnesses. Specific events are described with specific consequences.


Yes, this is true. Since so much description is given on the trumpet judgments, and we're told they are world-wide, and since we read that the world blames the two witnesses for the plagues they've caused on the earth, given the pieces of the puzzles provide, I'm making the assumption they are the same pieces. Keep in mind how many people are killed to by the trumpet judgments...also called plagues...if these are yet separate from the plagues 'at the hands' of the two witnesses, and for the world to hate the witnesses, how many people above and beyond this 2 to 3 Billion would the witnesses be responsible for? I'm also taking the precedent from Exodus; two men were used as the focal point (for the Pharaoh) for God's power. Again, looking at the number of deaths the trumpet judgments will make, and the details given to each of these, I think these are likely the same plagues very briefly mentioned in association with the two witnesses.

Of course, no one knows exactly how this is going to play out.

YBIC,


Bob
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Postby mark s on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:46 pm

Hi Bob,

I didn't know the world population, simply to say, one third of the people die during the 6th trumpet. Its not that I do or don't think 2+ billion people dying isn't great tribulation, but does the Bible specifically say that it is?

That notwithstanding, this would leave 2/3 remaining, of which perhaps 75% might die, I don't know, but if so, that would be greater than during the 6th trumpet.

I believe I understand what you are saying, that since these things are all so horrible, they must occur during this greatest of all tribulations.

What I like to look for is concrete statements made that say such and such happens in such and such sequence to such and such.

Love in Christ,
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:22 pm

Hi Bob,

I didn't know the world population, simply to say, one third of the people die during the 6th trumpet. Its not that I do or don't think 2+ billion people dying isn't great tribulation, but does the Bible specifically say that it is?

That notwithstanding, this would leave 2/3 remaining, of which perhaps 75% might die, I don't know, but if so, that would be greater than during the 6th trumpet.

I believe I understand what you are saying, that since these things are all so horrible, they must occur during this greatest of all tribulations.

What I like to look for is concrete statements made that say such and such happens in such and such sequence to such and such.

Love in Christ,
mark


Hi Mark,

It really would not leave 2/3 of the people that were present at the beginning of the 70th week.

As I read it, it 1/3 of those who are living AFTER the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seal will be killed, and it looks as it 1/4 will be killed before the trumpet judgments. We read this from the 4th seal:

Revelation 6:

8. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Thus, Mark, 50% of the earth is dead between the first seal and the end of the trumpet judgments. Regardless of how many billion people the number is, half will be gone...not 2/3.

Since Jesus says there will be tribulation like the world has never seen in the last 3.5 years, this is yet another reason why I think this is the time Jesus is talking about. There will have never been a time like the world has ever seen, if one even looks at the first 4 seals.

You wrote:

That notwithstanding, this would leave 2/3 remaining, of which perhaps 75% might die


Which passages are you thinking about here, Mark? I can't think off the top of my head any numbers of mankind who will be killed as the 1/4 and 1/3 numbers that are given earlier.

I just can't fathom what this time will be like. It's so sad to see (as I interpret it) that no one who survives the trumpet and bowl judgments will repent of their sins.

YBIC,


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Postby mark s on Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:11 am

Hi Bob,

There are a number of prominent prophecy teachers who think just the same as you do, including Walvoord. This is a common connection to make, that since the trumpets will be really bad, they must be a part of the "most bad" time. And that the covenant with many is a peace treaty, which will be broken in the middle, so the first have is peace and prosperity, and the second half isn't.

But I think I've been getting off track a bit as we are talking about the numbers. There are only a few places where God gives specific numbers, but there are other passages that let us know that a great many will be otherwise destroyed.

One Passage I've had in mind is

Isaiah 13:9-13
(9) Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste. And He shall destroy its sinners out of it.
(10) For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not give light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not reflect its light.
(11) And I will visit evil on the world, and their iniquity on the wicked. And I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease; and I will humble the pride of tyrants.
(12) I will make a man more rare than fine gold; even a man more than the carvings of Ophir.
(13) So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of Hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.


Concerning the fourth seal, notice it does not actually say that a fourth of the world's population will die, but rather that Death and Hades are given authority to kill upon a fourth of the earth:

Rev 6:8 And I saw, and behold, a pale green horse, and the name of the one sitting on it was Death; and Hades followed after him. And authority was given to them to kill over the fourth of the earth with sword, and with famine, and with death, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

This is "ges", earth, and indicates that there will be a portion of the earth, one fourth of it, that will be under the authority of death and hades, that they might kill within that area. This is the natural reading in using this word. This area might have more or less than an actual fourth of the world's population, and we don't know what portion of those people will die.

But again I question whether Jesus is referring to the judgments of the end times as He says "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

When I look at Matthew 24, the first mention of tribulation is in verse 9,

Mat 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to affliction, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

The context is clearly persecution. People will be doing this to them, and will be killing them, and that is the tribulation they will be experiencing. This will be persecution at the hands of people.

Jesus goes on to prophecy the Abomination of Desolation, warning those in Judea to flee, because

Mat 24:21 . . . there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.

Connecting this great affliction, or tribulation, with the abomination of desolation leads me to think that Jesus is talking about the persecution of Jews (or the Jews and the Church for you pre-wrathers :-) that will follow the AoD:

Revelation 13:5-7
(5) And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it.
(6) And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those tabernacling in Heaven.
(7) And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation.


I realize that Jesus does not specifically say that this "great affliction" will be a result of the AoD, or that it will be the persecution that follows the AoD, but this seems to me to be the natural reading of the passage.

Where do we make the texual connenction that this great tribulation refers to God's judgments, which aren't mentioned, rather than the fierce persecution, which is mentioned?

"Plagues" are mentioned in verse 7, but as "the beginning of pangs", as if these aren't the center stage. The main themes of Jesus' prophecy are the apostasy and deception of the wicked, and the persecution of the Jews, until Jesus returns.

So then, while the "great tribulation" is not specifically defined by Jesus as being either the plagues of God's judgment, or the persecution of the antichrist, persecution seems more in view than the plagues.

So we are both reaching a conclusion at this point that is not specifically given in the text. I just happen to feel that my conclusion is more aligned with the context. As I've said to others recently, its important to recognize what the specific foundations of our conclusions are.

And there does not seem to be any particular text that actually identifies the plagues as occuring only following the mid-point of the 70th Week.

When I compare this to the strength of the argument concerning the mutual exclusivity of the authority of the witnesses and the beast, that the witnesses can't be overcome until their 3.5 year ministry is finished, at which time the beast overcomes them, the beast that is given to overcome the saints for 3.5 years ending with the return of Jesus, this is specific, and comes straight from the text. If I add no assumptions, it stands as it. It requires no caveats, or explanations, or interpretation.

So that's my view.

Like I said, I realize that many people whom I have a great deal of respect for agree with you, and I also have a great deal of respect for you, Bob.

And I thought that way for a long time myself, since it seemed to make sense. But I just can't find the specific textual foundation, while I do see a textual foundation that indicates something else.

Love in Christ,
Mark
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Postby OBXBob on Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:36 am

Hi Mark,

Thanks again for a well thought-out response.

Since all of the pieces of the puzzle are not specifically spelled out, one must make some assumptions, if one is to draw any conclusion to what is given. The other alternative is to say that one should have no opinion at all. But, given human nature, this is not as likely!

You wrote:

When I compare this to the strength of the argument concerning the mutual exclusivity of the authority of the witnesses and the beast, that the witnesses can't be overcome until their 3.5 year ministry is finished, at which time the beast overcomes them, the beast that is given to overcome the saints for 3.5 years ending with the return of Jesus, this is specific, and comes straight from the text. If I add no assumptions, it stands as it. It requires no caveats, or explanations, or interpretation.


You may very well be correct. There may be no overlap of the witnesses and the beast. Or, the witnesses could very well be a thorn in the side of the A/C / world. Either point of view is ultimately an assumption.

Isaiah 13:9-13
(9) Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste. And He shall destroy its sinners out of it.


If one takes this to be the wrath of God, until the day that judgment occurs at Armageddon, then the Trumpet and Bowl judgments would be included. If one considers the judgment at Armageddon, the end result is the still the same at very very day...all sinners will be taken care of.

It is an assumption on my part that the death of 1/3 of the worlds population (this does not include any deaths from the wars, disease, and famine of seals 2,3, and 4) would be a part of what Jesus describes as a time of great tribulation, like the world has never seen.

You wrote:

So then, while the "great tribulation" is not specifically defined by Jesus as being either the plagues of God's judgment, or the persecution of the antichrist, persecution seems more in view than the plagues.


The bolded text below describes why I believe this mean much more than simply persecution:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


I take this to mean all will be affected, not just believers. This is also what we read happening in the trumpet and bowl judgments. If this were persecution of Jews and Christians only being spoken of by Jesus, and not the judgments on the unbelieving world, then would this not go against a pre-trib line of thinking? Or do you think Jesus' comments in Chapter 24 about the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen only relates to the persecution of Jews?

It's really good to have gotten to one of the points of differing opinions, Mark! :grin: I think to a great extent, these verses in Matthew, and whether other verses in Revelation (and other books) relate to these, or whether the other events are totally unrelated, ultimately help to decide our overall perceptions of the 70th week.

It's been a great discussion; I really appreciate it!!

Have a blessed Friday, Mark! :hugs:

YBIC,


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Postby mark s on Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:01 am

The bolded text below describes why I believe this mean much more than simply persecution:

Quote:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I take this to mean all will be affected, not just believers. This is also what we read happening in the trumpet and bowl judgments. If this were persecution of Jews and Christians only being spoken of by Jesus, and not the judgments on the unbelieving world, then would this not go against a pre-trib line of thinking? Or do you think Jesus' comments in Chapter 24 about the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen only relates to the persecution of Jews?


This is a good point, that this great tribulation will impact the whole world. What I wrote earlier, which better describes how I understand this, was "I think the Great Tribulation Jesus describes is the war of the dragon against the Jews, and against humanity." This also is not specifically stated, and is one of my assumptions.

As far as the pre-trib rapture, I think that the persecution will be against the Jews and all believers, but that doesn't mean that God would not have removed the believers from before that time.

As the two witnesses ascend, and there is an earthquake that kills 7000 in Jerusalem, it says "the rest gave glory to God." As I understand this to occur in the middle of the 70th week, this would be a time that some come to faith, as the AoD occurs, the Jews begin to flee, and salvation comes. These will be ones who will refuse the mark, and will die for their Lord.

It's really good to have gotten to one of the points of differing opinions, Mark! I think to a great extent, these verses in Matthew, and whether other verses in Revelation (and other books) relate to these, or whether the other events are totally unrelated, ultimately help to decide our overall perceptions of the 70th week.


One of the reasons I love to dig into this stuff with someone like you is that it provides a great opportunity to find those places where our conclusions are founded upon assumptions, and to test those assumptions for their strength.

I agree that we will often include assumptions in our understanding of eschatology, we simply need to know where they are.

It's been a great discussion; I really appreciate it!!


Me too!!! Thanks for asking!

:hugs:

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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mark s
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Postby OBXBob on Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:18 am

Hi Mark,

One last thing I'd like to throw out (no need for a response unless you'd like to), is that it looks as if there will be few people, if any, that survive the trumpet and bowl judgments, who actually repent. So tragic this will be, such a waste...

After the trumpet judgments:

Revelation 9:

20. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21. Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


and near the end of the bowl judgments:

Revelation 16:

9. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10. And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11. And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


There appear to be few 'converts' during this time, incredibly. :(

YBIC,

Bob
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Postby mark s on Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:24 am

Hi Bob,

I too have taken note of those passages. So very tragic!

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
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Posts: 13873
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA


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