lignostone weaponry

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lignostone weaponry

Postby overcomer 1 on Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:50 pm

The dutch developed a high-tech wood composite named lignostone. The Russians have adopted it for military use. It is relatively lightweight, virtually invisible to radar, said to be stronger than steel, and resists nuclear radiation. It was originally developed as a fuel source, and, guess what? Israel WILL use it for just that! When we look at Ezekel 38 and 39, especially the 39th chapter, we see God utterly destroying the Russian / Iranian federation (involving several Muslim countries) that seek to annihilate Israel. Lignostone burns VERY HOT. Not only will the military vehicles and weapons be torched by God, completely decimating the enemies of Israel, but the the military plunder will be stored for the day of Messiah's return. It will take seven months to bury the corpses of the enemy, and seven years to cleanse the Land. The battle of Ezekel 38 and 39 must then take place BEFORE the seven years of tribulation, since the first three and one-half years of the New Caesar's reign will be one of peace (or, pseudo-peace) and in the second half of his reign the Jews will flee. (That means they won't be around to do such clean-up work.) This failed-attempt "battle" should be coincident with Purim (the feast of Hadassa) in March of 2009, according to the prophetic timeline I have compiled. Interesting parallel, don't you think? The enemy hanged with their own rope, so to speak!
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Postby OBXBob on Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:56 am

Hello overcomer 1,

Very informative post!

You wrote:

It will take seven months to bury the corpses of the enemy, and seven years to cleanse the Land. The battle of Ezekel 38 and 39 must then take place BEFORE the seven years of tribulation, since the first three and one-half years of the New Caesar's reign will be one of peace (or, pseudo-peace) and in the second half of his reign the Jews will flee.


Is there any reason to believe that this cleansing of the land could not take place during the opening period of the Millennium Kingdom?

Also, why do you believe the 'New Caesar's' reign will last for 7 years, with the first 3.5 years being that of peace?

YBIC,


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lignostone, the Beast, and the seven years

Postby overcomer 1 on Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:17 am

The seven years of the Beast correspond with Daniel's seventieth week. In Daniel 9: 27 we are told he makes "a firm covenant with the many," which is clearly a peace treaty with Israel, giving them rights to the land and the temple service, as indicated by other scriptures one can look at. He breaks the covenant in the middle of the week, or at the 3 1/2 year point. Daniel 8: 25 speaks of his deceit and craftiness, and many scriptures in the B'rit Hadasha (new covenant writings, or "new testament") indicate that the world will be lulled into a false sense of security under the man of sin to come (e.g., 1 Thes. 5: 3). In Revelation 13: 3 the Beast receives a mortal head wound, which is miraculously healed. This is at the mid-point of the seven years, when the seventh Caesar becomes the eighth. Revelation 17: 7-18 describes the Julio-Claudian dynasty of Caesars--five have fallen (died by assasination or suicide), one is (Domitian at the time of Yochanan's, or John's writing), and one is about to come OUT OF THE ABYSS. This one (the fifth, Nero) is decsribed as re-emerging as a seventh and an eighth in this lineage. The New Roman Empire (the EU with the ten horns of the WEU) becomes none other than a continuation of the Julio-Claudian dynasty when the New Caesar is elected. The one to come is a man of pseudo-peace for the first half of the "week," and a man who exalts himself above God in the second half, when he miraculously is revived. The 666 connection comes in here, because he is none other than Nero re-embodied. (NRWN QSR in Hebraic gematria is 666, and I believe the Jewish believers knew Yochanan was referring to Nero.) Nero Caesar = 616 when using the Latin variant rather than the Greek, Neron Kaisar. Early manuscripts based on the Latin (e.g., Jerome) have 616 as a variant. The chapter also clearly describes the Roman Catholic Church, the city of Rome, and specifically, Vatican City, which the Beast and his ten military allies will level in one hour. As for the cleansing of the Land--yes, it occurs beginning with Messiah's return. More later. Anyone can e-mail me for more info, as this is my primary focus of teaching. Thanks for letting me post...
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Postby OBXBob on Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:14 pm

Hello overcomer 1,

Thanks again for the response!

You wrote:
The seven years of the Beast correspond with Daniel's seventieth week. In Daniel 9: 27 we are told he makes "a firm covenant with the many," which is clearly a peace treaty with Israel, giving them rights to the land and the temple service, as indicated by other scriptures one can look at. He breaks the covenant in the middle of the week, or at the 3 1/2 year point.


Let's look at Daniel 9:27:

Daniel 9:27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

An important word to consider is the word 'confirm'...it means more than to make a firm covenant.

The Strongs' info for the word "confirm" is:

Strong's Ref. # 1396

Romanized gabar
Pronounced gaw-bar'

a primitive root; to be strong; by implication, to prevail, act insolently:

KJV--exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.


So, he will be confirming or strengthening an agreement with many. This implies that there are actually two actions or agreements: an agreement with many, and then the strengthening of this agreement. Herb Peters had pointed out that the Barcelona Process, back in 1995, was an agreement with many...that is, the nations around the Mediterranean. The ENP, the European Neighborhood Policy, is a 7-year agreement which strengthens the Barcelona Process! There have been media articles that actually uses this terminology, with the ENP strengthening the Barcelona Process.

This verse in 9:27 doesn't necessarily mean that there will be 'seven years of the Beast'. Certainly, the A/C will be a major political power; however, all we can hang our hats on, so to speak, is that this person will be key in making this 'treaty'.

We see from this passage in Revelation that the Beast is in power / authority for 3.5 years...not 7 years....

Revelation 13

2. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
3. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
4. Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5. The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.


You wrote:
Daniel 8: 25 speaks of his deceit and craftiness, and many scriptures in the B'rit Hadasha (new covenant writings, or "new testament") indicate that the world will be lulled into a false sense of security under the man of sin to come (e.g., 1 Thes. 5: 3).


Many would argue that Daniel 8 has already been fulfilled. Others say that Daniel 8 is a 'type' of the A/C which is to come; however, this is an assumption.

You wrote:

. In Revelation 13: 3 the Beast receives a mortal head wound, which is miraculously healed. This is at the mid-point of the seven years, when the seventh Caesar becomes the eighth. Revelation 17: 7-18 describes the Julio-Claudian dynasty of Caesars--five have fallen (died by assasination or suicide), one is (Domitian at the time of Yochanan's, or John's writing), and one is about to come OUT OF THE ABYSS. This one (the fifth, Nero) is decsribed as re-emerging as a seventh and an eighth in this lineage. The New Roman Empire (the EU with the ten horns of the WEU) becomes none other than a continuation of the Julio-Claudian dynasty when the New Caesar is elected. The one to come is a man of pseudo-peace for the first half of the "week," and a man who exalts himself above God in the second half, when he miraculously is revived.


The Caesar is an interesting approach that many believe, and it does hold merit. And, there are others who believe it refers to the 7 great world empires: 1) Egyptians 2) Assyrians 3) Babylonians 4) Medo-Persia, 5) Greece 6) Rome 7) Revived Roman Empire and 8) The A/C

Revelation 17:

10. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.
11. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12. "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.


The 10 horns 'who have not yet received a kingdom' implies they will be receiving a kingdom. I believe this could be the 7th kingdom...and they receive authority for a short time alongside the beast (8th).

Revelation 17:13. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.


From the text above, it appears we're being told about two different 'kingdoms'...the revived R.E, the 10 toes in the statue in Daniel, and then the A/C who will ultimately have control over the revived R.E.

You wrote:

The 666 connection comes in here, because he is none other than Nero re-embodied. (NRWN QSR in Hebraic gematria is 666, and I believe the Jewish believers knew Yochanan was referring to Nero.) Nero Caesar = 616 when using the Latin variant rather than the Greek, Neron Kaisar. Early manuscripts based on the Latin (e.g., Jerome) have 616 as a variant. The chapter also clearly describes the Roman Catholic Church, the city of Rome, and specifically, Vatican City, which the Beast and his ten military allies will level in one hour. As for the cleansing of the Land--yes, it occurs beginning with Messiah's return.


I agree with you that there is a good possibility that the demonic entity that possessed Nero is the same that will ultimately be released from the Abyss and will possess the man who is to become the Beast.

YBIC,


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Postby goose on Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:44 am

I've been searching through google, and I can't find any factual information on lignostone weapons. I found a couple of sites just searching for "lignostone", none of which had weapons, and when I searched for "lignostone weapons" all that came up was prophecy websites claiming that Russia was using them.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but has anyone found factual info on this? I think there's only one Gog-Magog war, and that it happens where Revelation 20 puts it.
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Postby stevesherri on Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:02 am

It's Durostone which is used in military materials. It's made of plastic, not wood. It's used as a fire retardant, so it shouldn't burn.

http://www.roechling-asia.com/product_durostone_military.htm
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:09 am

Thanks for the info, stevesherri!

That would make sense!

YBIC,


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Postby OBXBob on Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:13 am

:wavewelcome: goose!

YBIC,

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gog and magog

Postby overcomer 1 on Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:27 am

Gog and Magog in Scripture refers specifically to Russia--not to a particular battle, unless that is specified in context. Durostone does not burn--therefore, the Russian-based weapons, vehicles, etc. that DO burn for seven years cannot be made of that material. Revelation 20 speaks of the FINAL seige, or rather, ATTEMPTED seige of the fortress of Zion in Jerusalem AFTER THE 1000 YEARS OF MESSIAH'S REIGN ARE COMPLETED. There will be no "transition period" of seven years before the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH are brought into being, the eternal state of God's people. Russia is involved no less than THREE times in Scripture in attempting to overthrow Jerusalem--(1) the soon-to be Russian/Iranian coalition BEFORE THE SEVEN YEARS (which should begin October 19, 2009); (2) Har Megiddo, involving the armies of the Beast or beast-system, which will be WAY larger than the first battle; and (3) The final attempt by Satan and his ready ally, Russia, to overthrow the fortress of Zion. The number of THOSE armies will be AS THE SAND OF THE SEA--that final attempt will be his biggest (and last) failed atempt. I work long hours, so I don't get much time to post...People need to do their homework, so that they can correctly fit the pieces together. Thanks...
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:00 am

Hello overcomer 1,

You wrote:
(1) the soon-to be Russian/Iranian coalition BEFORE THE SEVEN YEARS (which should begin October 19, 2009);


Why do you believe the 70th week of Daniel will begin on October 19, 2009?

YBIC,

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Postby goose on Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:57 am

"Gog and Magog in Scripture refers specifically to Russia"

I've heard this many times, but I cannot see what evidence there is for this. The descriptions of the two wars - in Ezekiel 38 and 39, and in Revelation 20 - are strikingly similar. Not only that, but the verse in question that mentions the burning of the weapons -

Eze 39:8 ¶ Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

says in verse 9 that they will burn them for seven years. We know from Luke 21 that Isael will be taken captive and killed in the midst of the 70th week -

Lu 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

which would not enable them to burn the weapons for 7 years. Zecheriah 14 gives the proper context for when they are dwelling peacefully, after they have been brought back from this captivity, during the millenium:

Zec 14:1 ¶ Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 ¶ And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

verse 11 above speaks of the same time that Ezekiel 38:8 does -

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:27 pm

I've heard this many times, but I cannot see what evidence there is for this. The descriptions of the two wars - in Ezekiel 38 and 39, and in Revelation 20 - are strikingly similar. Not only that, but the verse in question that mentions the burning of the weapons -


goose

I have heard this taught both ways, and I am still studying this one out. I am not sure that at this point anyone truly knows for sure.

That is why we keep watching and studying, and each of us is accountable to do this.
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Postby nonymouse on Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:34 pm

fwiw, burning wood-based weapons for fuel and heat would make great sense while camping in the wilderness (i.e., Israel's 3 1/2 years in the wilderness, the 2nd half of the 7-year covenant).

Blessings,
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Postby waitingformyking on Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:11 pm

I'm not critizing anyone here and I am sorry if I come across rude, but do we atleast try to read what has been brought to attention at this sight from the last couple years?

1. Revived Roman Empire (EU)
2. 10 nation alliance in the EU (WEU)
3. one person in charge of EU and WEU
4. person in charge got his position through 666 (TWICE)
5. person in charge made a covenant with many
6. person in charge strengthened covenant with many for 7 years
7. Israel yells for "Peace and Safety"
8. Israel starts to trade land for peace
9. Jerusalem becomes a stumbling block
10. Jerusalem has ALL nations (including U.S.A.) against her
11. Magog/Gog alliance has formed (Russia,Persia, Turkey)
12. Persia calling for destruction of Israel
13. Russia against West and fully supports Persia
14. Turkey sliding away from West and made alliance with Persia

Need I go on?
Either we are in complete denial or lacking the Spiritual Wisdom to lift the veil from our eyes.
Just Jesus fulfilling 8 Prophecy was 1 and 100,000,000,000,000,000
What do you think the odds are of these being fulfilled? When was the last time you won the lottery? Just the Power Ball odds are less than this.
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Postby waitingformyking on Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:19 pm

That's just the confirmation of Prophecies in the Bible it has also been confirmed through signs in the Heavens. (Stars)

Revelation 12
1A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
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Postby shampoo on Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:29 pm

waitingformyking, those 14 things you just listed is what jumped out at me when I came across this site! It opened my eyes this summer!

:shock:


Glad Herb, Holly and Adam were doing their homework to tell the rest of us and I am thankful for everyones input, too, keeping up with the news as it relates to the END times we are in. :a3:
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Answering questions

Postby overcomer 1 on Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:20 pm

OBX Bob: You are correct in saying the Beast reigns for 3 1/2 years ("42 months," or "1260 days, "or "a time, times, and half a time"). The word Beast refers to the Eight Caesar in the present-day continuation of the historic Julio-Claudian dynasty. (Be patient everyone--I will post a more thorough treatment of the subject of the Beast and the 666 connection a bit later. This is a brief intro only.) Remember that the New Roman Emperor (or High Representative--not Solana, by the way--I'll cover that as well) is a COMPOSITE of two separate personalities. The Beast that Yocahnan, or John, is referring to is Nero, THE 5TH AND THE EIGHTH (as I will show). He WAS and IS NOT and is ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS (Rev. 17: 8). Yochanan is referrring to one of the seven "kings" (not kingdoms) in a particular lineage. In 17: 9 we read, "...the seven heads are the SEVEN MOUNTAINS WHERE THE WOMAN SITS. This is clearly a reference to the seven hills of Rome, the seat of the Whore of Babylon, the Papacy. She is a three-fold counterfeit: (1)the false WOMAN (false Bride of Messiah); (2) false CITY and GOVERNMENT (Rome and Vatican City versus Jerusalem and Mt. Zion), and (3) a false KINGDOM (with her "Vicar" or "substitute" Messiah, the Pope versus Yeshua and the 1000-year Davidic kingdom)--"she HAS A KINGDOM OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17: 18). There is to be a political accord, not unlike Hitler's Reichskoncordat, in which the "Holy See" pledged "unflinching cooperation" with the Third Reich, Hitler's "Christian" state
("Christian Social Order"). The woman "rides the beast," or put another way, the Beast "carries her," as we see in this chapter. The Papacy will fund the New Caesar (the 7th) and his New Roman Empire until such time as he (as the 8th) has no more use for her. He and his allies will then torch Vatican City and level it in one hour. (This is one of the first, if not THE first major actions he takes in the beginning of the final 3 1/2 years.) Now, back to the Julio-Claudian dynasty: Yochanan continues in 17: 10, "and are seven kings" (these are Caesars of Rome, just as the woman sits on the seven hills of Rome)--"five have fallen" (died), "one is" (Domitian, the 6th)), and "the other (the 7th) has not yet come, and when he comes , he must remain but a short time" (3 1/2 years). So...in the Julio-Claudian dynasty we have: #1 AUGUSTUS; #2 TIBERIUS; #3 CALIGULA; #4 CLAUDIUS; #5 NERO. Yochanan wrote the Apocalypse about 95 C.E., according to reliable sources such as Irenaeus (who would know). Nero is the one WHO WAS AND IS NOT AND IS ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS. In 17: 11 we read, "and the Beast who was and is not, HE HIMSELF IS ALSO THE EIGHTH AND IS OF THE SEVEN." In other words, Nero, the 5th, re-emerges from the Abyss to continue the Julio-Claudian dynasty which ended with him! When the New Roman Emperor is elected, he will be THE SEVENTH AND WILL REMAIN ONLY A SHORT WHILE. That's because after 3 1/2 year, he receives a mortal wound to his head and miraculously revives (13: 3, 12). When he does (at the same time Abaddon unlocks the door to the Abyss) the spirit of Nero takes over, and the SEVENTH becomes the EIGHTH. So, again, when we are talking about the Beast we are referring to the second half of the seven years. (My apologies if I wasn't clear on this point earlier.) As for the October 19th, 2009 date: that date should mark the next election of a WEU High Representative (or whatever they decide to call that position later). waitingformyking, take note: Prophectic Scripture works on the principle of RECURRENCE. When it comes to the one generally called "the Antichrist," remember that Antiochus IV, "Epiphanes" fit the profile almost exactly. Much later, so Nero, then Titus. Yet none of these people are the one referred to in Revelation. They are only a PARTIAL FULFILLMENT. I OWE A GREAT DEBT OF GRATITUDE TO THIS SITE FOR "GETTING ME ON THE TRAIL." If you study the Beast's profile, Solana fits the POSITION only--not the MAN, who is "dreadful and terrible," beyond any man before or after him. The one who is to come will reign for seven years--3 1/2 of which is a time of deception as a false Messiah, and the second 3 1/2 years as an ANTI-Messiah, one who opposes God and everyone who believes in a God other than himself. His origin (for the second half of the 7 years), literally speaking, is Greece, as typified by Antiouchus IV. His origin, SPIRITUALLY is THE ABYSS. There is not a religious system, a computer, or a nation that arises from the abyss--only this man, the Beast from the Sea. (Sea refers both to the abyss and to the Gentiles.) 666 is the number of A MAN (Rev. 13: 8). When we apply Hebraic Gematria to Nero's Greek name (Neron Kaisar) we get EXACTLY six hundred and sixty six. When we use the Roman (Latin) variant, Nero Caesar, we get 616. That is why manuscripts based on Latin (e.g., Jerome, 4th century C.E.) have 616, as you find in many Bibles-- at least as a footnote. When I realized that Solana was too "mousy" for the mighty,brutish, loud, arrogant, and blasphemous person Daniel describes (starting in chapter seven), I simply went to the next election date. (Things then fit like a puzzzle.) Bob, I have a detailed study on all of this. I was chastised (and rightly so) for using this forum to "sell my book." I hope its O.K. to simply let people know that there are resources available, including ones I have compiled. Thanks everyone...
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correcting an error in my last post

Postby overcomer 1 on Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:47 pm

I wrote about the Beast's origins in my last post. He has ethnic / geopgraphical connections with Greece, and possibly Macedonia and Syria (based on Antiochus IV as a type). It is his spiritual, Satanic origins in the abyss that tie in with the second half of the seven years. The literal, ethnic lineage pertains to the "composite" being--that is, the Seventh who becomes the Eighth. I made it sound like the Eighth had a diiferent country of origin than the Seventh, which wouldn't make sense. (That sentence was part of an incomplete edit. There are typos also...my apologies.)
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Postby biscotti on Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:29 pm

Interesting post overcomer... but if you allow me to give a suggestion, please break your posts up into paragraphs to make them easier to read... :grin:
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Postby goose on Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:59 am

nonymouse wrote:fwiw, burning wood-based weapons for fuel and heat would make great sense while camping in the wilderness (i.e., Israel's 3 1/2 years in the wilderness, the 2nd half of the 7-year covenant).

Blessings,


Nony, it appears that would be a possibility at first glance, but I think one verse in Ezekiel makes that impossible:

"And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years"

Waitingformyking, I don't think anyone is saying that prophecy isn't being fulfilled, especially with the WEU and Rec. 666, ect., but I was just pointing out some conflicts I see in Scripture with the idea of Ezekiel 38 being fulfilled before the millenium.
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Postby waitingformyking on Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:20 am

overcomer 1
I understand there are mirrored instances in History that could represent the AC, yet only one of these have been fulfilled not as many has been fulfilled precisely as we see now.
In order for Jesus to fulfill the Prophecy of his coming he needed to fulfill everyone precisely. If he missed one...just one...then he wasn't the Messiah. Those mirrored AC's in History are nothing more than mirrored instance, which can only fulfill one or 2 but nothing specific.
I'm not saying Javier Solana is the AC, because niether one of us will know for sure until the AoD takes place.
As for the number 666 was represented in the name by Nero, Hitler, Ronald Reagan and the Pope's motto. You could almost find someone within the goverment that represents 666 in thier name. This idea that the name has to add up to 666 hasn't allowed anyone to see beyond that. Herb brought up a good point, using strong's concordance. If we look at the words "Count" and "Name" and notice that thier meanings could also represent "to Vote" and "position of title" then we will see how things could fall more into place.
Fatal wound to the head was also Prophecied by God in Genesis 3 when Satan was told "He will crush your head and you will bruise his heel".
The heel is our foundation which allows us to stand. Peter was the rock which Jesus built his Church on...he was also the founder of Catholism. Christianity was the driving force that destroyed the Roman Empire (Fatal head wound), but it was detroyed until Roman paganism was introduced into Catholism (bruised heel).
The beast coming from the abyss possesses the man which will hold the position of High Representive. The AC who is suppose to be in charge of 10 Kings(horns) and rule the revived Roman Empire(EU) personally will strengthen a 7 year covenant with many nation.
So we know the AC will rise after 10 Kings, Then he will rule 10 Kings, He will also come up among them or from one of the 10 kings, and he will strengthen a 7 year covenant.
I just named 5 specific Prophecies the AC will have to fulfill. Yet I can name someone already that has fulfilled these to a "T". That was only 5 and I can name a few more.
I think we need to stop thinking about what they thought in the early 80' of what Prophecy meant and start thing out of that little box.
I am looking foward to seeing your theory in another thread, but please break it down so it would be easier to read.

Revelation 13

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
No man might by or sell, save he had the mark, or authority from the beast, or the number of his title.

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding vote for the number recommendation of the beast: for it's a number of a man (position)....
><(((0>
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Postby OBXBob on Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:19 am

Hello overcomer 1,

Thanks for the post!

You wrote:
So...in the Julio-Claudian dynasty we have: #1 AUGUSTUS; #2 TIBERIUS; #3 CALIGULA; #4 CLAUDIUS; #5 NERO. Yochanan wrote the Apocalypse about 95 C.E., according to reliable sources such as Irenaeus (who would know). Nero is the one WHO WAS AND IS NOT AND IS ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS. In 17: 11 we read, "and the Beast who was and is not, HE HIMSELF IS ALSO THE EIGHTH AND IS OF THE SEVEN."


While I agree with you that the "Beast" is likely the same entity / demonic being that possessed Nero that will possess the A/C, I don't agree with the first 5 kings being those of the first 5 Julio-Claudian dynasty. I've heard this theory before; however, this theory does not match with Revelation 17:10, IMO.

Please consider the following verses, noting the one bolded:

Revelation 17:

8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

We agree on the identity of the beast, from Verse 8. However, verse 10, IMO, does not match your hypothesis.

Kings have kingdoms. There are 7. 5 are fallen. But the key is that ONE IS, and the other is not yet come. Who is the present King in circa 95 AD that John is referring to, if Nero were #6? And, we know there were more Caesars after the one in power at the time of John. Yet Revelation 17 implies that there is the 7th who is to come at some later date. Thus, it does not appear that Revelation 17:10 can be speaking of Caesars only.

I'm not saying I know with 100% certainty that I know what John was referencing in verse 10, but at the time of John, 5 great kingdoms who had ruled over Israel had fallen (#1 Egyptians, #2 Assyrians,#3 Babylonians, #4 Medo-Persians #5 Greeks.) Who was the 'kingdom' at the time of John that he would be calling the 6th? It is the Roman Empire.

We know from the Bible about Egypt and the Assyrians as being the first 2. We learn the identity of the others from the statue referenced multiple times in Daniel. We know from the statue that #7 will be the 10-toes, or 10 nations who will rule. Thus, Daniel's statue showing 'kings' 3-7 matches perfectly with Revelation 17:10!

And we agree that the 8th will rule over the 10, thus, #8 will rule over #7.

There are also no verses I can think of that say that the A/C will rule for a period of 7 years. We're told he will rule for 3.5 years (42 months), but not 7 years.

As for the identity of the A/C, no one knows at this time who he will be. But, I would not be too quick to dismiss any person based on their physical demeanor. During that 42 month period, he will get their power from Satan (likely via this possessed entity that will rise out of the Abyss), and when that happens, the 'demeanor' is sure to change.

YBIC,


Bob
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Beastly numbers

Postby overcomer 1 on Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:07 pm

I wrote a lengthy post regarding the Beast that was intended to be brief. (Such things happen when one is tired, has only a short time to write, and is trying to make his point known--all at the same time). Forgive me if I am being tiresome here, but I feel like I can be more clear. I make no aplogies for the length of THIS post, as it will be broken into paragraphs, unlike my previous one. (Thanks, folks, for pointing out such problems to me.)

For those who claim that Hitler, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, or indeed ANYONE'S NAME can add up to six hundred sixty six, bear in mind that Yochanan (John) was speaking to primarily JEWISH believers in Messiah who were in a unique position to exercise the kind of wisdom or insight he was referring to. Specifically, they knew HEBRAIC GEMATRIA, which assigns a numeric value to letters. One who respects Scripture cannot arbitrarily use any numeric system that suits his fancy, but only the specific one Yochanan is referring to when he uses the word "calculate" (Rev. 13: 18).

Some would argue that the Hebraic gematria was not in use at the time. If one does his homework, however, he will find that THIS ALPHA-NUMERIC SYSTEM WAS IN USE FROM AT LEAST THE SECOND CENTURY B.C.E. Other nay-sayers may argue that there is some kind of "fudging" or manipulation of the gematria to arrive at 666. They claim that it is "artificial" to add a final N to Nero (to get Neron Kaisar). Again, if one does his homework, he will find that Nero Caesar was known as NERON KAISAR in the eastern (Greek) half of the Empire--on coins and other artifacts.

Lastly, for those who say that "final forms" (that is, letters which appear at the end of a word) greatly change the numeric value of a word, they are correct. However, FINAL FORMS WERE NOT IN WIDESPREAD USE UNTIL AT LEAST THE SECOND OR THIRD CENTURY C.E. NERO CAESAR, OR NERON KAISAR IN GREEK, WAS THE ONE YOCHANAN WAS REFERRING TO. NERO WAS SEEN AS HOPELESSLY DERANGED AND MAD EVEN AMONG HIS OWN FAMILY MEMBERS, AND CAME TO BE KNOW AS "THE BEAST."

The Hebraic gematria system counts consonants only. Transposing the Greek, Neron Kaisar, into Hebrew for "calculating" by means of the gematria (as the wise among Yochanan's Jewish audience would have done), we get NRWN QSR. Let's do the math: N=50, R=200, W=6. N=50, Q=100, S=60, and R=200. That "calculates" to six hundred and sixty six (the manuscripts read just that way--not "6-6-6," allowing for barcodes or other computerized systems based on DIGITS rather than A SUM TOTAL FOR A MAN'S NAME: "IT IS THE NUMBER OF A (PARTICULAR) MAN" (13: 18).

"That's all well and good," you say, "but I'm not so sure about that crazy 'Neron' thing." Fine, let's do the more familiar Roman (Latin) variant, Nero Caesar. We then drop the final "N" and thus lose 50 points, giving us 616. If you look at Revelation 13: 18 in the NASB and some other translations, you will find the footnote, "some mss. read 616." Just what manuscripts DO read 616? THOSE BASED ON LATIN! (e.g., Jerome, 4th C.) So let's stop all this silliness about endless (and worthless) numeric systems!

ONLY NERO FITS BOTH 666 and 616! HE, AS POINTED OUT IN THE EARLIER POST, WAS THE FIFTH AND LAST OF THE JULIO-CLAUDIAN DYNASTY, "WHO WAS AND IS NOT" (WHO RULED BUT IS NOW DEAD--IN 95 CE, THE TIME OF THE APPOCALYPSE) "AND IS ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS"..."AND GOES INTO PERDITION" (OR DESTRUCTION--GEHENNA, OR THE LAKE OF FIRE).

Now, for those of you who want to interpret the "kings" of Revelation 17: 10 as "kingdoms" or "world empires," I ask you: What kingdoms (or nations, or empires) are called "HE HIMSELF" in 17: 11? And what kingdoms ARISE OUT OF THE ABYSS, AND ARE DESTINED TO GO INTO PERDITION? "But wait," you say, the "kingdoms" and the "heads" of this prophecy "are two different things." LET US LOOK AT THE SEVEN HEADS IN QUESTION. THEY ARE:

(1) THE SEVEN MOUNTAINS WHERE THE WOMAN (WHORE OF BABYLON) SITS (17: 9). That is to say, this lineage of seven is associated with Rome or the Roman Empire.

(2) SEVEN KINGS (ROMAN CAESARS--17: 10) Why Caesars? Because they are associated with the seven hills of Rome (and will ultimately be associated with the Papacy in a pact wherein the Woman rides the Beast, or "the Beast...carries her."

Yochanan uses the word "wisdom" twice--In 3: 18 and in 17: 9. (TWO, incidentally, most often refers to WITNESS OR TESTIMONY--as in the two witnesses. The disciples were first sent out two by two; etc.) What kind of wisdom is he referring to? I think we can all agree that wisdom is not the same as knowledge, but A SPECIFIC APPLICATION OF KNOWLEDGE TO SOLVE A PARTICULAR PROBLEM. The problem here is not moral, ethical, or spiritual per se.

YOCHANAN IS GIVING HIS READERS A "BRAIN TEASER," AND SPECIFICALLY, A NUMBER PUZZLE. THIS PUZZLE COULD THUS BE SOLVED AT THE TIME OF ITS WRITING! The knowledge of world empires was just that--KNOWLEDGE No WISDOM is called for there. But to "decode," "decipher," or "calculate" (as in 13: 18) calls for A SPECIFIC KIND OF (MATHEMATICAL) PROBLEM-SOLVING ABILITY BASED ON A PARTICULAR "CYPHER SYSTEM." Now let's take a look at Daniel's seventy weeks, and tie things together by the end of this post:

Why do some have a problem understanding that Daniel's "seventy weeks" (Dan. 9: 24-27) refers to WEEKS OF YEARS?! Many Jews knew TO THE VERY DAY when Messiah would appear, AND the day of his crucifixion, because IT COULD BE CALCULATED FROM THE PROPHECY OF THE SEVENTY WEEKS. it is now widely acknowledged by Messianic scholars that Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived on 25 Kislev (Chanukah, the Feast of Lights, or Feast of Dedication). He is truly the light that came into the world, who was the Temple of God among us. He was born on Sukkot (Tabernacles), as the one "who tabernacled among us"! (This could be a "rabbit trail," so enough on that...I'm sure people will want to delve into this matter later on.)

THE SEVENTY WEEKS IN BRIEF:

(A) ONE WEEK (Seven years) From the time of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem to the completion of the building (Dan. 9:25)

(B) SIXTY TWO WEEKS (434 years) From the completion of Jerusalem's rebuilding to the "cutting off" (crucifixion) of Messiah. (Messiah's earthly ministry lasted 3 1/2 years--exactly that of the coming Anti-Messiah!

(For those of you who read my earlier posts concerning the Julio-Claudian dynasty and the re-emergence of Nero and the Anti-Messiah, you may want to skip to (C) below.)
_____________________________________________________________

SEVEN is a number of divine perfection or completion. To cut the number in half is a "cutting off" or "cutting short" of that number. Yeshua, in his earthly ministry, is represented by the number seven, even though his ministry was cut short by crucifixion. We, his body, complete His earthly ministry and even His sufferings (through death to our soul-lives) until He returns. EIGHT is a number for new birth, a new creation, or resurrection. Yeshua is represented by the number eight in his resurrection. Thus, HE IS BOTH SEVEN AND EIGHT. The one to come, the counterfeit, will be "THE EIGHTH, AND IS OF THE SEVEN, AND GOES INTO PERDITION" (THE LAKE OF FIRE). Let's further investigate this Beast, and see how he fits the prophecy of the seventy weeks:

HERE ARE THE SEVEN "KINGS" (Caesars) YOCHANAN WAS REFERRING TO AND THE PERIOD OF THEIR RULE. (Remember that Rome is the "city built on seven hills.")

"FIVE ARE FALLEN" (EACH OF THESE HAVE DIED--BY SUICIDE OR ASSASINATION. THIS IS THE JULIO-CLAUDIAN DYNASTY)

1. AUGUSTUS (27 BCE TO 14 CE)
2. TIBERIUS (14 TO 37 CE)
3. CALIGULA (37 TO 41 CE)
4. CLAUDIUS (41 TO 54 CE)
5. NERO (54 TO 68 CE)

"ONE IS" (HE IS IN POWER AT THE TIME OF THE PROPHECY IN 95 CE)

6. DOMITIAN (81 TO 96 CE)

"THE OTHER (THE SEVENTH) IS NOT YET COME"..."HE MUST REMAIN A SHORT WHILE" (3 1/2 YEARS)

7. THE SEVENTH CAESAR. (2009-2013; HE WILL TAKE OVER SOLANA'S POST.) HIS COUNTRY OF ORIGIN WILL LIKELY BE GREECE, AS HE IS TYPIFIED BY ANTIOCHUS IV, WHOSE KINGDOM WAS MACEDONIA-GREECE. ANTIOCHUS IS ALSO KNOW AS A SYRIAN-GREEK KING.

''THE BEAST THAT YOU SAW WAS AND IS NOT AND IS ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS AND GOES INTO PERDITION" (17: 8)

"AND THE BEAST WHO WAS AND IS NOT (Nero, the 5th and last of the Julio-Claudian dynasty), HE HIMSELF IS THE EIGHTH and IS OF THE SEVEN and GOES INTO PERDITION" (THE LAKE OF FIRE) (17: 11)

Let's look at those last two verses more closely: The Beast, or Anti-Messiah, or Eighth Caesar (a) Once ruled; (b) Is now dead, at the time of Yochanan's writing; (c) Is about to come up out of the abyss, only to go into the lake of fire; (d) Is called the Eighth (Caesar); (e) Is of, or BELONGS TO (the lineage of) the seven, and, again, his destiny is the lake of fire. Nero once was and will re-emerge from the abyss to become the eighth. The seventh (who reigns for 3 1/2 years, then dies) is merely the body which he inhabits.

8. THE EIGHTH CAESAR, aka the ANTI-MESSIAH, aka THE BEAST
(2013-2016 CE) The seventh ruled for 3 1/2 years, then died, coming back to life as the eighth (Rev. 13: 3). HE IS NONE OTHER THAN NERO RE-EMBODIED! This "little horn" of Daniel exalts himself as God and moves into the Temple, demanding everyone to worship him. An unparalled slaughter ensues--he kills everyone who believes in any god but himself. Anyone who thinks Solana is this Beast needs to read the Word of God! This Eighth Caesar is more dreadful and terrible than all tyrants and evil dictators who came before him! He is even permitted to prevail against the millions of believers who are left on the earth during these 3 1/2 years of "Yakov's trouble," a time of horrific brutality and rampant death. (Sorry, folks, that's what Scripture declares!)

In Daniel 9: 26 we read, "The people of the prince who will come will destroy the City and its sanctuary" (Titus, 70 CE, a pre-figure of the Beast, or Anti-Messiah). The Beast, or Anti-Messiah, IS THE EIGHTH, AND IS OF THE SEVEN. HE, NERO, INCARNATES THE BODY OF THE SEVENTH CAESAR, WHO IS A FALSE MESSIAH WHO DIES AFTER 3 1/2 YEARS OF HIS REIGN. WHEN HE COMES BACK TO LIFE, HE IS THE EIGHTH, THE ANTI-MESSIAH.
_____________________________________________________________

(C) ONE WEEK (SEVEN YEARS--THE SEVENTIETH "WEEK" IN THE PROPHECY) Dan. 9: 27: "And he (the prince who is to come, typified by Titus) will make a firm covenant with the many (the Jews) for one week (seven years), but in the middle of the week (that is, after 3 1/2 years) he will cause the sacrifice and oblation (re-instituted Temple worship of the firm covenant) to cease and will replace the sacrifice and ablation with abominations of the desolator (the Beast, or Eighth Caesar), until the complete destruction that has been determined is poured out on the desolator."

In closing, I hope you can all see that no computer system, religious system, nation, world empire, etc., comes out of the abyss to set himself up as God and wreak havov on the earth's dwellers during the second half of the seventieth week (the last 3 1/2 years of the time of tribulation that is coming). The final 3 1/2 years will be a time of GREAT TRIBULATION unprecedented in human history.) May we all be "counted worthy to escape these things and to stand before the Son of Man." To be such a worthy remnant we need to be like the assembly in Philadelphia, who had "a little strength," and did not deny Yeshua's name. They dwelt together in oneness and brotherly love, awaiting the Son of David's return and the restoration of Israel in Messiah's millennial kingdom!
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Postby waitingformyking on Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:52 am

I've heard this before...you have some good points. I believe the beast who comes out of the Abyss will possess the High Representive, but I don't believe it would be Nero himself. I believe it would be an entity or Satan who dwells in the High Representive. Caeser is nothing more than a mirror image of what the Anti-Christ would be like.
Daniel's statue clearly states what each minerial represents. God himself interpreted that dream and he never mentioned that the first few were Kings of of one particular Kingdom.
All this is trying to explain the wound on one of the heads that seems to be healed.
In order to really grasp scripture one needs to go back to the Original writings of greek and Hebrew and not use the interpretation of another language. Each word has a particular meaning and "Calculate","Name" or "Confirm" is not the only meanings.
How is anyone going to reconize Nero? All we have are statues!
Remember it's the Anti-Christ who confirms the covenant or many other Prophecies pertaining to End Times. It's not someone who comes in afterward after everything is already done.
The Early Church fathers believed they were in the End Times because of all the persecution they were going through. Some Church members even believed the Church was raptured and they missed it until they were reminded by Paul in Thess. that Yeshua wasn't coming until after the AoD.
To think that Javier can't be because he isn't cruel is decieving yourself. The AC is suppose to come and usher in False peace. He decieves many into believing he doesn't have any cruel intention and it's all for the benefit of the World. This is something that is being pushed alot more now than it ever was...expecially by the EU now.
I feel the after the AoD then perhaps the High Representive will be possessed by the same evil as Nero, but it won't be Nero himself.
><(((0>
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:07 am

Hello overcomer 1,

Thanks again for the post, and don't worry about the length of it! Such posts do require quite a bit of space at times! :grin:

I'm familiar with what I'll call the "Caesar Theory", that is, Revelation 17:10 is referencing the first 5 Caesars of Rome; however, after more exploration a couple of years ago, I no longer believe this to be the meaning of 17:10 for a couple of reasons that I'll attempt to explain.

First, let's take another look at Revelation 17:10:

Revelation 17:10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

We are told several things:

1) There are 7 'kings'.
2) 5 are fallen by the time of John's writing of Revelation on the Island of Patmos
3) 1 is (the 6th)
4) the 7th is yet to come (some future event)

You wrote:

HERE ARE THE SEVEN "KINGS" (Caesars) YOCHANAN WAS REFERRING TO AND THE PERIOD OF THEIR RULE. (Remember that Rome is the "city built on seven hills.")

"FIVE ARE FALLEN" (EACH OF THESE HAVE DIED--BY SUICIDE OR ASSASINATION. THIS IS THE JULIO-CLAUDIAN DYNASTY)

1. AUGUSTUS (27 BCE TO 14 CE)
2. TIBERIUS (14 TO 37 CE)
3. CALIGULA (37 TO 41 CE)
4. CLAUDIUS (41 TO 54 CE)
5. NERO (54 TO 68 CE)

"ONE IS" (HE IS IN POWER AT THE TIME OF THE PROPHECY IN 95 CE)

6. DOMITIAN (81 TO 96 CE)



There are two serious issues I see with the "Caesar Theory':

Issue #1:

While Nero happens to be the 5th Caesar (so far, so good), Domitian IS NOT Emperor #6. He is #11. Below is a list of all the emperors of Rome. Now, if one wants to make a special, unique grouping of only those in the JJulio-Claudian Dynasty as being counted in Revelation 17:10 (I'm not sure on what Biblical grounds one could make this unique grouping), there is a problem in that Domitian is NOT considered to be in the Julio-Claudian Dynasty. Actually, Domitian was the last emperor of the Flavian dynasty, which ruled the Roman Empire between 69 and 96. Others before him in this dynasty happened to be be his father, Vespasian (69–79), his elder brother Titus (79–81), and finally Domitian. (There were three 'other' 3 emperors in 69 AD).

Thus, Johns statement about the 6th (if it were to mean Domitian), would not appear to be accurate.

Issue #2:

In Revelation 17:10, we read that there will be another who will come, that is, #7. Again, from the list below, we see that there were many, many more Emperors of Rome after Domitian. Thus, I don't think the "Caesar Theory" can be accurate, unless one permits what I'll call 'cherry picking' emperors to get it to 'fit' into Revelation 17:10. John said there are 7 'kings'. Domitian was the 11th Caesar of Rome. He cannot be the 6th king, if Caesars 1-5 were to be the fist 5 kings!

This is why I believe the 7 kings represent the 7 kingdoms (5 of them were discussed in length in Daniel, and the other 2 were discussed throughout the Bible. Again, they 7 kingdoms are:

1) Egyptians
2) Assyrians
3) Babylonians
4) Medo-Persians
5) Greeks
6) Roman Empire
7) Revived Roman Empire (10 toes in the statue of Daniel)

This perfectly harmonizes with Daniel, as well, as Revelation 17:10:

5 are fallen (the first 5 kingdoms listed above), one is (at the time of John's writing, the Roman Empire is), and one will come (the 10 toes / nations of the Revived Roman Empire.)

IMO, the Bible typically provides the answers to its prophecies somewhere within its 66 books, and I believe that is the case with Revelation 17:10. Too much time of this most-important time book was spent, IMO, on kingdoms 3-7 to think that they could not be those referenced in Revelation 17:10. And it fits like a glove.

BTW, the terms king and kingdom are interchangeable in the Bible, at times. An example is the interpretation of the dream that Daniel gave Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 2:

32. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33. His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them All. Thou art this head of gold.


Note that Daniel initially referenced each of the parts of the statue as being kingdoms, and the bolded portion of verse 38 says the head is Nebuchadnezzar (interchangeable with the Babylonian kingdom since is the ruler of the kingdom.)

Now, as I said, the Bible provides its own interpretation, in most cases. Check out this next verse in Daniel which provides more detail about the statue!

Daniel 7:17. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

See that! Beasts 3-6 (the four beasts, Babylonians, Medo-Persians, Greeks, and Romans) are referred to in Daniel AS KINGS!

Now, let's take another look at Revelation 17:10 to complete this paralleled description:

Revelation 17:10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Thus, at least for me, Daniel 7:17 provides a DNA match, if you will, for the interpretation of Revelation 17:10!

I agree with you that the demonic entity that likely possessed Nero may likely be the same that will come out of the Abyss to possess the A/C.

You wrote:

7. THE SEVENTH CAESAR. (2009-2013; HE WILL TAKE OVER SOLANA'S POST.) HIS COUNTRY OF ORIGIN WILL LIKELY BE GREECE, AS HE IS TYPIFIED BY ANTIOCHUS IV, WHOSE KINGDOM WAS MACEDONIA-GREECE. ANTIOCHUS IS ALSO KNOW AS A SYRIAN-GREEK KING.


This is an assumption that the A/C will have to be typified by Antiochus IV in every regard. Many believe Daniel 8 to be fulfilled prophecy, while others believe it to be a type of the final A/C. We can, with certainly, only apply those prophecies which have not been fulfilled to future events. Certainly, it is possible that many prophecies thought to have already been fulfilled are 'types' of a later event; however, such is purely human speculation. There is no way to say with certainty that one can ascribe events which have already been fulfilled as 'types' unless there is Biblical basis to do so, via defined scriptures, IMO.

YBIC,


Bob


Below is a listing of all the Emperors of Rome, as a reference (I have bolded those Caesars which the "Caesar Theory" claims to be the kings referenced in Revelation 17:10 so one can easily see at a glance that Domitian cannot be the 6th King:

Excerpt taken from:
[url]
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/empe ... ldates.htm[/url]
Table of dates of the Roman Emperors from Augustus to Romulus Augustulus.

(31 or) 27 B.C. - 14 A.D.Augustus
14 - 37 Tiberius
37 - 41 Caligula
41 - 54 Claudius
54 - 68 Nero

68 - 69 Galba
69 Otho
69 Vitellius
69 - 79 Vespasian
79 - 81 Titus
81 - 96 Domitian
96 - 98 Nerva
98 - 117 Trajan
117 - 138 Hadrian
138 - 161 Antoninus Pius
161 - 180 Marcus Aurelius
161 - 169 Lucius Verus
177/180 - 192 Commodus
193 Pertinax
193 Didius Julianus
193 - 211 Septimius Severus
198/212 - 217 Caracalla
217 - 218 Macrinus
218 - 222 Elagabalus
222 - 235 Severus Alexander
235 - 238 Maximinus
238 Gordian I and II
238 Balbinus and Pupienus
238 - 244 Gordian III
244 - 249 Philip the Arab
249 - 251 Decius
251 - 253 Gallus
253 - 260 Valerian
254 - 268 Gallienus
268 - 270 Claudius Gothicus
270 - 275 Aurelian
275 - 276 Tacitus
276 - 282 Probus
282 - 285 Carus Carinus Numerian
285-ca.310 Diocletian
Domitius Domitianus
297-298 Aurelius Achilleus
303 Eugenius
285-ca.310 Maximianus Herculius
285 Amandus
285 Aelianus Iulianus
286?-297? British Emperors
286/7-293 Carausius
293-296/7 Allectus
293-306 Constantius I Chlorus
293-311 Galerius
305-313 Maximinus Daia
305-307 Severus II
306-312 Maxentius
308-309 L. Domitius Alexander
308-324 Licinius
314? Valens
324 Martinianus
306-337 Constantinus I
333/334 Calocaerus
337-340 Constantinus II
337-350 Constans I
337-361 Constantius II
350-353 Magnentius
350 Nepotian
350 Vetranio
355 Silvanus
361-363 Julianus
363-364 Jovianus
364-375 Valentinianus I
375 Firmus
364-378 Valens
365-366 Procopius
366 Marcellus
367-383 Gratian
375-392 Valentinianus II
378-395 Theodosius I
383-388 Magnus Maximus
384-388 Flavius Victor
392-394 Eugenius
395-423 Honorius [Division of the Empire - Honorius' brother Arcadius ruled the East 395-408]
421 Constantius III
423-425 Johannes
425-455 Valentinian III
455 Petronius Maximus
455-456 Avitus
457-461 Majorian
461-465 Libius Severus
467-472 Anthemius
468 Arvandus
470 Romanus
472 Olybrius
473-474 Glycerius
474-475 Julius Nepos
475-476 Romulus Augustulus
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Julio-claudian dynasty/ Sizing up the Beast

Postby overcomer 1 on Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:23 am

OBXBob: One needs to look only at reliable information sources such as wikipedia.com and key in "Julio Caludian dynasty" to come up with the five I have listed. These are not arbitrary. This was the ultimate "dysfunctional familiy" of history, which brings us to another point I'll post later: the "little horn" of Daniel springs up AMONG THE TEN and AFTER THE TEN. One day I pondered the question as to how one can fit both categories, and I come up with FAMILY LINEAGE.

Antiochus IV was the progeny of Antiochus I. These particularly evil Caesars were all intererrelated by blood. More examples could be given. But since I believe Solana fills the POSITION only and not the PERSON of the Beast to come (according to the prophetic principle of recurrence mentioned in earlier posts), he could have a blood relative that comes AFTER him and AMONG his family lineage (which may simply refer to the ten WEU member nations, Greece being the last).

As for the "kings or kingdoms" questions, I started a new thread entitled "four kingdoms of man in God's economy." It shows the interrelationship between Daniel's four kingdoms and the seven kings of Revelation. (From your wording, OBXBob, it sounds like you may have read it already.)

As for the Solana issue, he has already ruled more than seven years, has not died and come back to life, and in no way, shape or form fits the "prophile" of the large, powerful, and menacing presence described all through Daniel's writings and those of the Apocalypse. One good site to check out is http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/antichrist.htm. The article on the AntiChrist is by William Arnold III. It is not ENTIRELY accurate (but what is?); nonetheless it is very well put together in terms of "sizing up the Beast." Shalom! Back later...overcomer 1
I am a Bible teacher who sees things from a Messianic perspective. I take Scripture literally unless given strong contextual basis to treat it otherwise. That means: the restoration and national salvation of Israel upon the return of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, His 1000-year reign from the Throne of David in Jerusalem, overcoming to inherit the prize of becoming a co-king with Him, and the blessings of New Jerusalem as the eternal state for all of God's people.
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:38 am

Hello overcomer 1,

You wrote:

OBXBob: One needs to look only at reliable information sources such as wikipedia.com and key in "Julio Caludian dynasty" to come up with the five I have listed. These are not arbitrary. This was the ultimate "dysfunctional familiy" of history, which brings us to another point I'll post later: the "little horn" of Daniel springs up AMONG THE TEN and AFTER THE TEN.


I had actually addressed this in my previous post:

While Nero happens to be the 5th Caesar (so far, so good), Domitian IS NOT Emperor #6. He is #11. Below is a list of all the emperors of Rome. Now, if one wants to make a special, unique grouping of only those in the JJulio-Claudian Dynasty as being counted in Revelation 17:10 (I'm not sure on what Biblical grounds one could make this unique grouping), there is a problem in that Domitian is NOT considered to be in the Julio-Claudian Dynasty. Actually, Domitian was the last emperor of the Flavian dynasty, which ruled the Roman Empire between 69 and 96. Others before him in this dynasty happened to be be his father, Vespasian (69–79), his elder brother Titus (79–81), and finally Domitian. (There were three 'other' 3 emperors in 69 AD).


Had Domitian ACTUALLY BEEN the 6th Caesar of Rome, then at least that portion of Revelation 17:10 could have been met. But, THERE IS NO MATCH or no correlation that I can see for Domitian being #6!

And then, what about all of the other Caesars after Domitian? Why would #6 be Domitian, and then #7 skipping over the multitude of Caesars after Domitian?

You wrote:

As for the "kings or kingdoms" questions, I started a new thread entitled "four kingdoms of man in God's economy." It shows the interrelationship between Daniel's four kingdoms and the seven kings of Revelation. (From your wording, OBXBob, it sounds like you may have read it already.)


I had not read your new thread. I'll do that.

You wrote:

As for the Solana issue, he has already ruled more than seven years, has not died and come back to life, and in no way, shape or form fits the "prophile" of the large, powerful, and menacing presence described all through Daniel's writings and those of the Apocalypse. One good site to check out is http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/antichrist.htm. The article on the AntiChrist is by William Arnold III. It is not ENTIRELY accurate (but what is?); nonetheless it is very well put together in terms of "sizing up the Beast." Shalom! Back later...overcomer 1


I disagree. Solana has not ruled over the 10 nations at all. He presently has a position of much power, but he is not ruling over the 10. In 2009, there is a possibility that he could receive such a position.

Revelation 13: 3. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Many believe this 'could' be referring to the 6th kingdom, the Roman Empire, being wounded to death, and the reformed Roman Empire was the 'healing', and all the world wondered at that (the rebirth of the Roman Empire.)

YBIC,


Bob
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:49 am

Many believe this 'could' be referring to the 6th kingdom, the Roman Empire, being wounded to death, and the reformed Roman Empire was the 'healing', and all the world wondered at that (the rebirth of the Roman Empire.)


I have heard this teaching also, but did all the world wonder at this????

Can we see this really shown in history???? I think most of the world did not even know or give a care when this happened because most people were barely able to keep alive, hardly paying attention to what happened. Just my opinion here.

I think this is part of the Seventh Day Adventist teaching that the empire was divided into the ten, and all of that, and the Pope came on the scene as antichrist. At least it goes something like this.
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:58 am

Hello RLS,

You wrote:

I have heard this teaching also, but did all the world wonder at this????

Can we see this really shown in history???? I think most of the world did not even know or give a care when this happened because most people were barely able to keep alive, hardly paying attention to what happened. Just my opinion here.

I think this is part of the Seventh Day Adventist teaching that the empire was divided into the ten, and all of that, and the Pope came on the scene as antichrist. At least it goes something like this.


I'm not sure we're talking about the same event. The one I'm referring to is the reformation of the Roman Empire into 10 ruling nations. I think we're seeing the reformation now, but I'm not sure at what point in time one could officially call them semi-cohesive empire. They are trying their best to form, as we see the daily news events unfold. The 2009 date for a supposed 'president' may well mark their beginning. So, I don't think there has yet been an event for which the world should be marveling.

Of course, it is possible that the wound refers to the leader of the nation, and not the kingdom itself. Since Daniel uses these terms interchangeably, there could be an argument made for either position.

YBIC,


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Postby RomaLynnStar on Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:03 am

Hi Bob, I was referring to history, of course with Charlemagne, etc.

But even today, I tell you no one is watching this ten nation WEU or EU, thing much either.

Even believers, we are, I think, a minority who even know it is going on. At least this is what I see in my area.

And so I guess I am saying I think the wound will probably be a person, and pretty obvious for the world to wonder about it.

Does that make sense??? I could be wrong of course, but in my observance of things, people at least the majority, have to see something really dramatic.
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Postby OBXBob on Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:26 am

Hi RLS,

You're right, today (that's the key word) no one is really watching what's happening. Many think the wound is to be taken literally, as applying to a person, and others take it to be that it could be taken the death of an empire which has been reborn. I think it could go either way (that is, I'm not sure I can find scriptures that exclude beyond a shadow of a doubt one or the other.)

As I said, I don't think the 7th beast (the RRE) has been reformed 'quite' yet. When they do, I think from the following verse, one can no longer say that the world is not aware of them...

Revelation 17:

12. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14. These shall make war with the Lamb
, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

There are of course the multiple references to these 10 nations in Daniel, as well, but I did not list them here.

YBIC,


Bob
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Postby mark s on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:03 am

Hi Bob,

I’ve been reading back over this material, since this is a topic I’ve not studied as much, and I am very interesting in learning this better, this whole business of beasts and horns, kings and kingdoms, and I came back across this:

I'm not saying I know with 100% certainty that I know what John was referencing in verse 10, but at the time of John, 5 great kingdoms who had ruled over Israel had fallen (#1 Egyptians, #2 Assyrians,#3 Babylonians, #4 Medo-Persians #5 Greeks.) Who was the 'kingdom' at the time of John that he would be calling the 6th? It is the Roman Empire.


If we are determining common factors for identifying who these are, some things occur to me.

The Egyptians and the Assyrians don’t really match with the Babylonians, Medo-Persians, Greeks, and Romans. There is a way they both match, but in a way that also brings in many more nations, including mulit-national empires.

Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome all ruled over the Israelites in their homeland.

Egypt ruled over the Israelites, but not in their homeland. Assyria ruled over the northern kingdom, but drove the residents of the northern kingdom out of their homeland.

Other empires have ruled over the Israelites, such as the USSR, the British empire, in reality, all the places they have lived in the diaspora. Empires have ruled over their homeland, such as the Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire, but not while it was the Israelite’s national homeland.

So then there is a commonality that is shared by the four, that is not shared with either Egypt or Assyria. If we relax the standard to allow in Egypt and Assyria, we have to allow more in.

Still working it through . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:04 am

Hi Micheal,

One thing I’d like to add to what you are saying here:

Let's look at those last two verses more closely: The Beast, or Anti-Messiah, or Eighth Caesar (a) Once ruled; (b) Is now dead, at the time of Yochanan's writing; (c) Is about to come up out of the abyss, only to go into the lake of fire; (d) Is called the Eighth (Caesar); (e) Is of, or BELONGS TO (the lineage of) the seven, and, again, his destiny is the lake of fire. Nero once was and will re-emerge from the abyss to become the eighth. The seventh (who reigns for 3 1/2 years, then dies) is merely the body which he inhabits.


The phrase “and is of the seven,” is in the Greek, “και εκ των επτα εστιν”, “kai–and” “ek-out of” “ton epta- from the seven” “estin-is”, so this is not just saying that the eighth belong to the seven, but comes out from the seven.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:04 am

One question to answer is this: While we know Daniel used “king” and “kingdom” in an interchangable manner, did John? John, for instance, used “apo” and “ek” interchangably, and sometimes contrary to classical Greek usage. Luke, however, did not. Therefore, we do not go to Luke’s writings, and where he wrote “apo”, “away from”, substitute “out of”, from “ek”. That would be a mistranlation of Luke’s writing.

Daniel wrote in Hebrew. While John’s writing demonstrates an underlying Hebraic thought process, nonetheless, he wrote in Greek, but more importantly, was a different writer. Therefore, we need to demonstrate from John’s writings in a conclusive fashion that he used “king” and “kingdom” interchangable, in order for this interpretation to be founded upon a sound hermaneutic.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:05 am

Moved to Prophecy Debate . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby savedbygrace on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:48 pm

:sofa:
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Postby overcomer 1 on Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:46 pm

mark s:

I am pretty busy right now, so I am taking time off from regular posts for awhile. I have a little "window" tonight, however, so I'll respond "off the cuff," without the usual Scriptural references. You wrote:

"One question to answer is this: While we know Daniel used “king” and “kingdom” in an interchangable manner, did John? John, for instance, used “apo” and “ek” interchangably, and sometimes contrary to classical Greek usage. Luke, however, did not. Therefore, we do not go to Luke’s writings, and where he wrote “apo”, “away from”, substitute “out of”, from “ek”. That would be a mistranlation of Luke’s writing.

Daniel wrote in Hebrew. While John’s writing demonstrates an underlying Hebraic thought process, nonetheless, he wrote in Greek, but more importantly, was a different writer. Therefore, we need to demonstrate from John’s writings in a conclusive fashion that he used “king” and “kingdom” interchangable, in order for this interpretation to be founded upon a sound hermaneutic."

Mark, we can spend more time on this later, but the SHORT answer is YES, Yochanan (John) does use the terms interchangeably, as does Daniel. The PRIMARY emphasis in the Apocalypse is THE MAN, who is connected with "the Seven"........Seven hills of Rome, Seven "kings" (Caesars assoiciated with those seven hills), and seven "heads," which correspond to the SEVEN-HEADED DRAGON (Satan).

These "heads," like Nebuchadnezzar, represent the governing authority of an empire. THE POLITICAL TYRANNY OF ANCIENT ROME ENDED WITH DOMITIAN, THE SIXTH, AND WILL CONTINUE WITH THE SEVENTH /EIGHTH OF REVIVED ROME. THUS, THE ROMAN EMPIRE HAS SEVEN HEADS, which are ONE WITH SATAN--the Great Red Dragon who has seven heads and ten horns.

As noted, the SEVEN HEADS are seven Caesars beginning with Augustus and ending with the Anti-Messiah who is about to appear--no other Caesars fit all the criteria previously set forth. (I KNOW--I CHECKED IT OUT.) Both the historic Roman Empire and the New Roman Empire of the last days are connected with Satan and his power.

Remember that in the Great Image of Daniel, we have FOUR KINGDOMS--Yet, Daniel says, "YOU, O King (Nebuchadnezzar) are that head of gold." (An example of the king / kingdom connection you refer to.) So what happens when we get to the legs and feet of iron, and iron /clay mixed? We see the western and eastern half of the Roman Empire, we see military might mingled with political as well as spiritual instability / vulnerability AND we see TEN TOES, which are synonymous with the TEN HORNS of the fearful and dreadful beast who is stronger than all the previous beasts. We know that the WEU is made up of ten nations ("kingdoms," if you will).

These ten (WEU) horns represent both the TEN MILITARY GENERALS of the MAN who is the Beast (just as the other "horns" in Daniel represent military generals--more later) and the TEN NATIONS that make up the beast-empire. As I pointed out in an earlier post, Yochanan describes this last-days' Beast / beast-kingdom as a COMPOSITE of Leopard, Bear, and Lion--i.e., Rome + Macedonia / Greece + Medo-Persia + Babylon!

As YOU pointed out, these FOUR KINGDOMS are the ones God includes as the major focus of both Daniel's and Yochanan's prophecies because they represent the unbroken historical succesion of World Empires that took the Jews and Jerusalem captive, and which will continue to do so--by means of the NEW Babylon / Rome of the last days--until the Ancient of Days returns with His armies of overcoming holy ones. I hope this brief overview proves helpful to some...

Shalom,

Michael

BTW: It is believed by many Messianic scholars that the Apocalypse and the book of Hebrews were originally penned in Hebrew, as Matthew's Good News account was. In any case, the Apocalypse is certainly not familiar ancient Greek, but "Jewish-Greek." It has the most Hebraic grammatical construction of all the B'rit Hadasha (new covenant writings).
I am a Bible teacher who sees things from a Messianic perspective. I take Scripture literally unless given strong contextual basis to treat it otherwise. That means: the restoration and national salvation of Israel upon the return of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, His 1000-year reign from the Throne of David in Jerusalem, overcoming to inherit the prize of becoming a co-king with Him, and the blessings of New Jerusalem as the eternal state for all of God's people.
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Postby mark s on Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:56 pm

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your response. Please, take as much time as needed between posting, I am patient. They say good things come to those who wait . . .

So then you are saying that John used "king" to refer to a "kingdom", and "kingdom" to refer to a "king". When you have opportunity, could you point me to those passages wherein he does this?

But still you are saying that even so, in this passage of the seven heads which are seven kings, you believe those refer to actual kings, specifically caesers, and not kingdoms.

So you are answering that while John does use these words interchangably, he's not doing so in the passage we are examining.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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the kings /kingdoms of the Apocalypse

Postby overcomer 1 on Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:23 pm

mark s,

To be more specific, it appears that Yochanan uses the term "ten horns" in reference to BOTH military leaders AND nations. As for "kings," in 17: 10, I don't see the dual application with "kingdom" EXCEPT BY ASSOCIATION WITH THE TEN HORNS. The word "beast," however, DOES have this dual application, as in Daniel. (I'm glad you questioned me on this, because I was a bit ambiguous in my last post.)

THE SEVEN "KINGS" IN 17: 10 ARE CAESARS OF ROME, WHO ARE ONE WITH SATAN

In 13: 1, 5, and 6 it is clear that the seven "kings" in question are "heads of blasphemy"--seven rulers who set themselves up as God and blasphemed His name. These seven heads are one with the Great Red Dragon--the one with the unquenchable thirst for blood.

In 13: 2 the (fourth) Beast (or, beast-kingdom) is the composite of the three preceding it--From Babylon to Rome, or Nebuchadnezzar to Alexander the Great.

In 17: 9 the seven "heads" (rulers / Caesars of Rome) = seven "kings." The terms are synonymous.

THE TERM "TEN HORNS" OF BOTH DANIEL AND REVELATION REFERS TO (A) MILITARY LEADERS AND (B) NATIONS.

In 17: 12 the "ten horns" (military leaders) "...have not yet received a kingdom." (The WEU ten represents a kingdom, as I understand the term, so the "horns" in this verse must refer to individual leaders.)

In 17: 17 God puts it into the hearts of these ten leaders to "give their kingdom to the Beast." (Here the finacial / political / military accord of the ten leaders in question makes it clear that such an alliance IS a kingdom. The full-fledged beast-kingdom, whereby the 8th Caesar shares his power and authority, lasts for one hour only--just long enough for them to do his bidding in destroying Vatican City.)

Thus, we see that the term "ten horns" is used interchangeably for INDIVIDUAL LEADERS and for a CONFEDERATION (a "kingdom").

In Daniel 7: 8 the "little horn" who is soon to take power (typified here by Antiochus IV) "uprooots" three of the ten. Yet in the Apocalypse we are not told of a SEVEN-horned kingdom, but only a TEN-horned one. So the three horns that are uprooted cannot be allies or confederates of the Anti-Messiah, as I hope to make clear in the next paragraph.

In 17: 12-14 the ten horns wage war with the Lamb and His holy ones at Messiah's return. We must therefore conclude that the three horns that are uprooted refer to NATIONS OR POLITICAL ALLIANCES. It is likely that the E3--Britain, France, and Germany--will oppose the Beast when he begins to "do as he pleases," as Daniel speaks about. The ten horns that wage war, then, are MILITARY GENERALS FROM THE TEN NATIONS, AND THESE TEN KEEP THEIR ALLEGIANCE TO THE BEAST UP TO THE END.

I believe that it is specifically the "nuking" of Vatican City (which is leveled in one hour) that causes three of the 10 WEU nations to voice concerns over the 8th Caesar's abuse of power. (see 17: 16-18 for this torching of "the great city" which is assoiated with RELIGIOUS ROME.) The New Ruler, as the Eighth Caesar, then likely severs all political and financial ties with them, and begins to act more and more independently. Yet his ten-horned MILITARY ALLIANCE stays with him to the end.

In summary, it would appear that Yochanan does NOT associate the term "king" with "kingdom" in the same way that Daniel does. Though he DOES allude to the same four kingdoms as Daniel (the three of 13: 2 plus the New Roman Empire), the word "kings" in 17: 10 can only be associated with Rome and its blasphemous and evil "kings" who are one with the Great Red Dragon.

Thanks again for your questions--I need to be challenged, like everyone else, to be clear in my presentation of prophecy and eschatology. You have helped me to choose my words more carefully, especially when I am writing "off the cuff," as in my last post.

Shalom,

Michael
I am a Bible teacher who sees things from a Messianic perspective. I take Scripture literally unless given strong contextual basis to treat it otherwise. That means: the restoration and national salvation of Israel upon the return of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, His 1000-year reign from the Throne of David in Jerusalem, overcoming to inherit the prize of becoming a co-king with Him, and the blessings of New Jerusalem as the eternal state for all of God's people.
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Re: the kings /kingdoms of the Apocalypse

Postby mark s on Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:59 am

overcomer 1 wrote:In 17: 17 God puts it into the hearts of these ten leaders to "give their kingdom to the Beast." (Here the finacial / political / military accord of the ten leaders in question makes it clear that such an alliance IS a kingdom. The full-fledged beast-kingdom, whereby the 8th Caesar shares his power and authority, lasts for one hour only--just long enough for them to do his bidding in destroying Vatican City.)

Thus, we see that the term "ten horns" is used interchangeably for INDIVIDUAL LEADERS and for a CONFEDERATION (a "kingdom").


I guess I see this as a confederation of 10 kingdoms led by 10 kings, the 10 horns. Up to this point, I'm right there on the same page with you.

As for the 3 uprooted kings, I suppose I've assumed that the beast replaces them, since "10 kings" continue to fight with him against Jesus.

So I'll look at this again.

Basically, then, you are saying that the 10 horns of which three are uprooted are the 10 political leaders, while the 10 horns which fight against Jesus are the 10 military rulers?

Thank you for your patience explaining all of this. I really want to understand what you are saying.

All in all, I think we see things very much the same.

Also, while I was studying last night, I realize now the Scriptural support for the 7th and 8th being the same. Very interesting!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: the kings /kingdoms of the Apocalypse

Postby overcomer 1 on Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:15 pm

Hi mark,

You wrote:

"Basically, then, you are saying that the 10 horns of which three are uprooted are the 10 political leaders, while the 10 horns which fight against Jesus are the 10 military rulers?"

Yes, that is what I am saying, except that I would emphasize the word NATIONS rather than "political leaders." (The term "horns," as noted, refers to both.)

In both Daniel and Revelation, there IS an alliance of ten nations (which I believe to be the WEU), which is the "political" connection, but three nations are "fired" by the Beast, who still keeps the ARMIES of the ten with him to the end. This interpretation makes more sense to me than replacing the three "fired" countries with three others, which act isn't stated in the prophecy.

The seventh and eighth being one person IS interesting, isn't it? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jewish scholar, has many interesting things to say in his book, "In the Footsteps of the Messiah." In addition to his own revelations, he seems to be gleaning from a lot of "Brethren" teachers (Darby, Pember, Panton, Govett, Lang, etc.), all of whom I respect, but don't necessarily agree with. He takes the "seven kingdoms" approach, which, as I think you and I agree, holds less weight Scripturally than the seven kings, or Caesars of Rome approach.

Seven and eight are both important and significant numbers in Scripture, and Yeshua is both #7 and #8, as I pointed out in an earlier post. The Beast counterfeits Messiah's first appearing as the seventh--the FALSE Lamb of God, or FALSE Messiah, as he promotes peace and "salvation" to the world (mainly in a political sense, though the false prophet promotes him spiritually as well--at least later on). He then counterfeits Messiah's second appearing as the eighth--the ANTI Messiah, or FALSE Lion of the tribe of Judah, who overcomes the kingdoms of this world to make them his own.

Now, here's where Fruchtenbaum "goes boldly where no man has gone before," and I think what he says holds SOME merit. He believes that Satan will even counterfeit the virgin birth--i.e., even the seventh has supernatural origins. Fruchtenbaum teaches that Satan will actually personally "spawn" this man. (That would make him another of the Nephilim, or "fallen ones" of Genesis.) If that is true, the New World Ruler will just appear one day, and though we will know something about the maternal side of his family, the paternal side will be shrouded in mystery. VERY INTERESTING STUFF TO PONDER...........

One of these days soon I will cover the horns of Daniel subject more thoroughly--but here's a bit of interesting info: When I did a study a few years back, I asked myself what the term "little horn" meant. Most would say that this particular horn starts out in a "small" way, virtually unnoticed until he gains greater and greater popularity (or infamy) and power. I agree with this interpretation, but I also found some other things of note in my studies regarding Antiochus IV, who called himself "Epiphanes," or "the illumined one." (He is possibly the strongest pre-figure of the coming Anti-Messiah in history. His blasphemous arrogance can be found in coins of the day, which bear the words, "Antiochus, image of God, bearer of victory.")

In Daniel 7: 8 we are told that the little horn springs up from "AMONG THE TEN."

In Daniel 7: 24 we are told that the little horn springs up "AFTER THE TEN."

I asked myself the question as to how one could be both AMONG and AFTER at the same time. I then concluded that it just might refer to FAMILY LINEAGE. Antiochus IV was the son of Antiochus III, and the great grandson of Antiochus I (who was himself the son of Seleucus I). That makes him the great-great grandson of the first Seleucid king. This gives us a "horn" which comes up both AMONG and AFTER the others in the Seleucid Empire of Macedonia / Greece.

Now let's look at Nero: he was the fifth of the Julio-Claudian dynasty of Rome. (He will also be the eighth. Antiochus IV was number eight of the Seleucid kings, by the way. Hmmm....) All of these Julio-Claudians were family members. Nero was the great-great grandson of Augustus, the first of the Julio-Claudian dynasty.

I firmly believe that the next WEU ruler (to be elected October 19, 2009) will come out of the area of Macedonia or Greece--probably the latter. So......if the "little horn" to come is OF THE TEN and AFTER THE TEN, that would likely mean:

(1) He is from Greece (the last of the WEU member nations to join the ten-horned alliance);
(2) He would be a family member of a ruling dynasty; and
(3) He MAY have family ties to Javier Solana (who is not Greek)

It is interesting to note that Kostas Karamanlis, the current Greek Prime Minister, is the nephew of Constantine Karamanlis, the former Greek president--a very powerful and charismatic leader who solidified Greek's political, financial, and military future. I am not saying that Kostas is the one to watch for, but the Karamanlis family dynasty MAY be something to watch. Remember that Nero began reigning at age 17--a "little" horn, indeed. The mystery continues...

Shalom!

Michael

PS: Thanks, everyone, for your great comments and questions. It is once again time to get back to other projects, so my posts will be shorter and less frequent for awhile. (I am getting busier teaching again.) E-mail me or private message me to find out more about what I'm up to spiritually--or otherwise, for that matter. Thanks again...
I am a Bible teacher who sees things from a Messianic perspective. I take Scripture literally unless given strong contextual basis to treat it otherwise. That means: the restoration and national salvation of Israel upon the return of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, His 1000-year reign from the Throne of David in Jerusalem, overcoming to inherit the prize of becoming a co-king with Him, and the blessings of New Jerusalem as the eternal state for all of God's people.
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