PURPOSE DRIVEN UNVEILED

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PURPOSE DRIVEN UNVEILED

Postby BKF on Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:32 pm

PURPOSE DRIVEN UNVEILED

Commentary by Roger Oakland from the Philippines
www.understandthetimes.org



The concept of Purpose Driven people and churches has become a phenomenon that is sweeping the world. Since the publication and promotion of the idea by Rupert Murdoch-owned Zondervan, the name of Pastor Rick Warren has become synonymous with a man who has a plan to bring hope for planet earth.

When I say the planet, that is exactly what I mean. Over the past five years I have spoken to pastors and church leaders in over twenty-five countries. Where ever I have gone, the message of purpose driven has proceeded me.

I have just completed two conferences for pastors and church leaders, one at the city of Antipolo near Manila and the other at Bageo. Because The Purpose Driven Life has been widely distributed throughout the Philippines (either for free or very little cost), the concept of the purpose driven Christian has reshaped the minds and the motives of Christian leaders who now desire to have mega-churches, just like Pastor Rick.

While it is true, that the purpose driven movement encourages all to become purpose driven for the cause of good over bad, somewhere along the line, the social gospel that is being promoted has set the gospel according to the Scriptures aside, or at least, caused it to be lost in the zeal to eradicate AIDS, poverty and illiteracy.

For example, while in the Philippines, I have discovered that Roman Catholics had been invited to participate together with “evangelicals” to promote the concept that is about to be unveiled in the Philippines – the P.E.A.C.E. plan.

Remember, Rick Warren signed an agreement with Chuck Colson in April of 2005 at the large gathering at Anaheim Stadium when the P.E.A.C.E. plan was announced. It is common knowledge that Chuck Colson signed Evangelicals and Catholics together.

Is the P.E.A.C.E. plan just another arm of the Roman Catholic New Evangelization program that is designed to establish the kingdom of God here on planet earth with headquarters in Rome? Is Rick Warren fully aware of the path he is choosing to lead many unsuspecting Christians?

Breaking the News in the Philippines

Throughout both conferences in the Philippines, a number of presentations were made to help pastors and church leaders understand the significance to understand our times. Nearly every single person had been affected by the purpose driven philosophy. When I asked for a show of hands in Bageo if anyone had a copy of the book, about 50 percent of the 100 or more delegates raised their hands.

The topics that I presented dealt with deception in the church in the last days as revealed in the Bible relating to Bible prophecy. For example, I quoted
Warren’s own words taken from Purpose Driven Life:

When the disciples wanted to talk about prophecy, Jesus quickly switched the conversation to evangelism. He wanted them to concentrate on their mission to the world. He said in essence, "The details of my return are none of your business. What is your business is the mission I have given you. Focus on that!” [1]

Further, when I quoted Warren’s own words from an interview he did with Charlie Rose, August 17, 2006, some indicated to me afterwards they were questioning whether this quote was taken in the proper context:

When I go out and I start telling people, “Do you want to work with us on poverty, disease, AIDS, illiteracy, injustice?” I often find people are more unwilling to work with us than we are willing to work with them. In other words, we’re saying, “You don’t have to change your beliefs for us to work with you.” If you can only work with people that you agree with, then most of the world, you’re ruling out. Okay. I don’t insist that a Moslem change his belief for me to work on poverty. I don’t even insist that a gay person has to change their beliefs. They’re not going to accept my belief, or I’m not going to accept theirs. [2]

Throughout the conferences in the Philippines, I told the delegates about the various three-legged stool plans that were being implemented for peace. These plans included the United Nations plan, the Al Gore and the “Mother Earth” plan, the Vatican plan, and also Rick Warren’s three-legged stool plan that he learned from his mentor Peter Drucker.

For, example, I had quoted Warren, who stated the following in an interview:

A one-legged stool will fall over, a two-legged stool will fall over, and business and government alone cannot solve these problems. They haven’t, or they would’ve. The third leg of the stool is the churches. There’s a public sector role, there’s a private sector role and there’s a faith sector role. [3]

Even thoughI had presented the facts about the purpose driven belief system, it was apparent that many were not convinced that I was telling the truth.

The Final Blow

It is not my desire to attack or destroy other ministries, although recently there have been plenty of attempts to attack and destroy the ministry of Understand The Times. My desire is to tell the truth and point people to the Word of God. In fact, I have been told recently that the problem I have created amongst a fellowship of pastors is because of “telling the truth.”

It is because I am concerned about the direction that purpose driven emerging church Christianity is leading Bible-believing Christianity that I feel called to warn the church – it is a church that is headed towards apostasy and doesn’t even know it. It was for this reason I wrote Faith Undone as a message to the church to wake up and get back to the Word of God away from teachings designed to grow churches at the expense of biblical truth.

While I was speaking at the conference in Bageo, Rick Warren was in Europe participating in the DAVOS discussion group. Someone sent me a link to a short interview that he gave that was aired on You-tube. When I watched Warren on that video clip, I realized his statement would help me show the Bageo Understand The Times delegates that I had not been taking things out of context nor was I exaggerating the concerns I had with purpose driven Christianity.

On the last day of the conference, I visited an internet café and videoed the statement that Warren had made at DAVOS. Later I showed it at the conference. The conference delegates heard Rick Warren confirm all that I had previously told them, in the very words spoken by himself. As a result, after my PowerPoint presentation of Warren’s statement, one could have heard a pin drop in the lecture hall. The facts were presented. The case was complete. I made no further comments.

As I conclude this commentary, please read the transcript of the statement Warren made about purpose driven at DAVOS. I will make no further comment. My case is closed. You can draw your own conclusion.

Is purpose driven Christianity a biblical Christianity or is it not?

Transcript: “Rick Warren Answers the DAVOS[4] Question”

Posted on You tube January 25, 2008

Rick Warren:



Hi, You Tubers. This is Rick Warren, author of the Purpose Driven Life and pastor of Saddleback Church. I’m here at DAVOS with a lot of my friends. And we are talking about what are the biggest problems of the planet and how are we going to solve them.



Right now, I think, there are five what I call global giants—extreme poverty, pandemic diseases, illiteracy, corruption, and spiritual emptiness. These problems are so big nobody’s been able to solve them. The U.S. hasn’t solved them. The U.N. hasn’t solved them. Nobody’s solved them. And I think it is because we are going to—it is going to take a three-pronged strategy to do this.



There is a role for the public sector. There is a role for the private sector. And there is a role for the faith sector. Each of them can do something that none of the other three can do.



Government has a role to set agenda. Government has a role to set priorities and things like that, and move nations. And there are some things that only governments can do.



Businesses have a role. Which they have—they bring expertise. They bring, they bring investments. They bring all kinds of innovations to the market.



But then also, houses of worship have things that businesses and government will never have. In the first place, we have universal distribution. The church was global two hundred years before DAVOS ever talked about globalization.



I can take you to ten million villages around the world that the only thing in it is a church. And we are in more locations than the United Nations. We speak more languages than the United Nations. We are a thousand more people groups than the United Nations.



You see, there are 600 million Buddhists in the world. There are 800 million Hindus in the world. There are a billion Muslims in the world. But there are 2.3 billion Christians in the world. If you take people of faith out of the equation you have ruled out five-sixths of the world.



So we have to mobilize this, this, these faith groups to do—to work together on these issues that have been unsolvable. And the church has, of course, the greatest distribution.



It also has the biggest manpower, being 2.3 billion people. I mean it is the church. The Christian church is bigger than China. It is bigger than India. In fact, it is bigger than India and China put together. So nothing compares to its size. We have hundreds of millions of people who volunteer around the world in villages and cities on a weekly basis. And we don’t have to pay them!



The third thing that they have is they have local credibility. At the local level people trust that priest, or that pastor—or for that matter an imam or a rabbi, the religious leader of their faith, because he is marrying, he is burying, he is helping them through the stages of life. When the crisis comes, NGOs come and go. Nations come and go. But for instance the church has a 2,000 year track record.



So I really think that what we need to do here at DAVOS is to work on a three-legged stool. The problem we haven’t solved these issues before is because we have had a two-legged stool. We’ve had government and business trying to work together. And that’s a good thing. But a two-legged stool will fall over. You have to have the faith sector. You have to have the public sector. And you have to have the private sector.



And frankly, I don’t care why you do good, as long as you do good. Your motive may be politics. You know, I am a member of the Counsel of Foreign Relations, and I have learned that when you, for instance, help people get well, that they have been unhealthy, they like your nation.



Now, that is not my motivation for doing good. But it is not a bad one. If you have a political motivation, fine, do it. You may have a profit motivation for doing good as well. You know, some businesses say we are going to make drugs and make money at the same time and help people. Great! I wish more people would do that. I wish more businesses would make more money and do more good at the same time. It is not my motivation, but a profit motive is not bad. You might have a personal motivation. Maybe you have cancer, you have AIDS, and so you care about people with cancer and AIDS.



My motivation is—Jesus said, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” But it doesn’t have to be your motivation. I’m just encouraging you to get involved. Do something now about the problems of the world. [5]



Note: Upon completion of this commentary, I learned that after Warren’s trip to DAVOS where he made the preceding comments, he spoke at the National Cathedral in Washington DC. Warren said many of the same statements at the Cathedral as he did in DAVOS.



In addition, he told the Cathedral (an interfaith promoting church) the following: “People ask me all the time, are you left-winged or right-winged? ... I'm for the left wing and for the right wing.... the fundamental truth is Washington needs both wings.”



Warren called for a reconciliation between religion and politics. [6]
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Postby chatty-kathi on Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:10 pm

Is the P.E.A.C.E. plan just another arm of the Roman Catholic New Evangelization program that is designed to establish the kingdom of God here on planet earth with headquarters in Rome? Is Rick Warren fully aware of the path he is choosing to lead many unsuspecting Christians?


I believe the answer to both questions is yes.

From the free on-line book, “In the Name of Purpose”, we read :

The Christ has no religious barriers in His consciousness. It matters not to Him of what faith a man may call himself.” —Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul

“It is here that the Church, as usually understood, meets its major challenge. Is it spiritual enough to let go of theology and … widen its horizon and recognize as truly Christian all who demonstrate the Christ spirit, whether they be Hindu, Mohammedan, or Buddhist, whether they are labeled by any name other than that of orthodox Christian?” —Alice Bailey

“I have known many people who believe in the Messiah of Jesus, regardless of what religion they are, because they believe in him. –Rick Warren

“You may be Catholic or Protestant or Buddhist or Baptist or Muslim or Mormon or Jewish or Jain, or you have no religion at all. I’m not interested in your religious background. Because God did not create the universe for us to have religion. He came for us to have a relationship with him.” —Rick Warren

“One day you will stand before God, and he will do an audit of your life, a final exam, before you enter eternity.… God won’t ask about your religious background or doctrinal views.” –Rick Warren

“I happen to know people who are followers of Christ in other religions.” —Rick Warren

And I have studied all the major religions … and they all just have a different way to get to God. –Rick Warren


Rick Warren has been mentored by Robert Schuller, C. Peter Wagner, and Peter Drucker. The following statement from the book says it all:

Incidentally, Rick Warren has said, “Because I had been raised in a Christian home, I rejected it all, and I decided to study the religions of the world. I actually moved to Japan, and I studied Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism. I studied all the religions of the world.” Then he should know that religions aren’t just a “different way to get to God,” they follow different gods!


The author then comments:

It really speaks to the lateness of the hour that professing Christians actually believe that people on a false way in a false religion with false theology and false doctrines about false gods can still be a follower and believer of the Lord Jesus Christ, can still have a relationship with God, and can still go to heaven and attain salvation! If that doesn’t reveal the dire state of Christianity’s scriptural illiteracy today, then what does?


If you haven’t read “In the Name of Purpose” by Tamara Hartzell, the link is www.inthenameofpurpose.org. Another must-read is also a free book by Warren Smith, “Reinventing Jesus Christ”, at www.reinventingjesuschrist.com.
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Postby jawall on Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:33 pm

Have a good friend, an elderly retired scientist who is looking at the book P D C with a very critical eye. He (the Phd.) had been given a book "the dark side of the PDC". I have had the book PDC in my library for some years and had never read it so he borrowed the book and began his research. I called him yesterday evening and he had finished 2/3 of the book and thus far has found nothing that opposed the true Gospel or to support all the negative press he was hearing/reading.

I do not support warren or any of his programs but wonder if this book in and of itself is evil? There has been a very aggressive marketing campaign and now you can get a purpose driven ________ (you fill in the blank) so is that where the problems lie or is it found at the root.

I am trying to get this gentleman on the thread so he can follow some of the references. He is a true seeker of knowledge and a balanced follower of Christ. Though we do not always agree, (he attends a more traditional church) I do value his input on such matters.

Again, I have not read the book or researched the "effects of this book on the American church" but wonder if others did not have a book to sell??? You see my point!

I appreciate Kathy's post with the "free reads". A free read takes away some of the questionable motives.

blessings
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Postby mark s on Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:57 pm

I haven't finished Purpose Driven Church yet myself, but even so, I've noticed several places where Rick Warren subtly leaves the truth, and teaches humanism, replacing the serving of God with the serving of man.

One thing he does that is key to his error is that he ascribes the conversion of the lost to the devotional activities of the saved.

The Bible declares that salvation comes in response to the preaching of the Word.

From The Purpose Driven Church:

“In Acts 2:42-47, these five facets of growth are described in the first chruch at Jerusalem. The first Christians fellowshiped, edified each other, worshiped, ministered, and evangelized. As a result, verse 47 says, “And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.” Note a comple of things about this verse. First, God added the growth (his part) when the church did its part (fulfill the five purposes).” (PDC pg. 49)
This is not a correct treatment of this passage.

Acts 2:42-47
(42) And they were continuing steadfastly in the doctrine of the apostles, and in fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
(43) And fear came to every soul, and many wonders and miraculous signs took place through the apostles.
(44) And all the believers were together and had all things common.
(45) And they sold possessions and goods and distributed them to all, according as anyone had need.
(46) And continuing steadfastly with one mind day by day in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they shared food in gladness and simplicity of heart,
(47) praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the assembly, the ones being saved from day to day.

The Lord adding to the church is not said to be a result of Warren’s “five activities.” Were we to look at this passage in that way, we’d not only find that evangelism isn’t actually named in these verses, but we’d also find “wonders and miraculous signs”, “having all things in common”, “distributing according to need”, being “day by day in the temple”. But Rick Warren isn’t including those. The difficulty with trying to show doctrine from a narrative passages is that it becomes subjective, since we aren’t actually told to do these things, we’re told what the disciples did at that time.

It’s good to emulate this, but this is not a passage that lays out “5 purposes for the Church”. The fact is, to see what people did that contributed towards God adding to the church, we need to look back a few more verses:

Acts 2:38-41
(38) And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(39) For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.
(40) And with many other words he earnestly testified and exhorted, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation.
(41) Then truly the ones gladly welcoming His Word were baptized. And about three thousand souls were added that day.

It was at Peter’s preaching. Not “missional living”, not doing the “P.E.A.C.E” plan. Good ol’ preaching the Gospel.

But notice what Mr. Warren has done here. He’s deftly substituted the church’s activities amongst itself for the church’s purpose in the world, and even mis-representing the passage.

God’s primary purpose for the church in this world is not for fellowship, prayers, gathering to worship, and so forth, as meaningful and necessary as these things are. These are what the church does internally. These are not what the church does with the unbelievers.

(2 Corinthians 5:17-20) “So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new! And all things are from God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation, as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us. Then on behalf of Christ, we are ambassadors, as God is exhorting through us, we beseech on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God.”

We are ambassadors for God, urging the world to be reconciled to God. We are continuing Christ’s purpose on this earth. Christ came not to bring peace, but a sword, dividing those who will serve God from those who will not.

Jesus healed all who came to Him, but He didn’t eliminate disease. He fed many who were hungry, but He didn’t eliminate poverty, or hunger.

Jesus came to save His people from their sins. He did that by giving up His life as a ransom.

Salvation comes not by eating, nor by being healthy, but by believing in Christ, by joining Christ, through faith, in His death.

Rick Warren has credited the salvation of unbelievers to the church’s devotional activities, feeding, teaching, providing medicine. The Emerging Church does the same thing. But that is not what the Bible says brings salvation:

Rom 10:17 “Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.”

“And hearing, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men, brothers, What shall we do? And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:37-38)

Their salvation came through faith at the preaching of the Word.

“And when I came to you, brothers, I did not come with excellency of word or wisdom, declaring to you the Testimony of God. For I decided not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ, and Him having been crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:1-2)

Turning believers away from preaching the Word, towards serving mankind through these “purposes”, or “5 facets of growth”, “missions into the culture”, whatever you want to call it, diverts the children of God from the one activity the Bible declares to bring salvation: the propositional, uncompromised declaration of the truth of the Bible, specifically Christ’s atoning death.

Rick Warren continues to build his church with unbelievers.

“What is the most natural way to increase the number of visitors to your church? ( . . . ) The answer is quite simple: Create a service that is intentionally designed for your members to bring their friends to. And make the service so attractive, appealing, and relevant to the unchurched that your members are eager to share it with the lost people they care about.” (PDC pg. 253)

Says Warren’s imaginary interviewee, “I wouldn’t think of inviting my unchurched friends from the office because the service wouldn’t make sense to them. The messages are for me, the songs are for me, the prayers are prayed in terms I understand, and even the announcements are for me. My friends wouldn’t understand much of our service.” (PDC pg. 252)

In such a church as is being described, this is a Biblical church, as it is directed towards the development and equipping of the believer. In a “seeker friendly” church, there is not meat for spiritual growth. Now, if this led to people becoming born again, and entering a Biblical fellowship, that would be one thing, but at Saddleback, as so many others, they instead enter these series of classes to teach and train them to serve the “purposes”, and simply replicate this pattern throughout the world. Serving a set of pre-packaged “purposes” is not equivalent to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby mark s on Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:58 pm

BTW, I'm not selling a book . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Postby Lightseeker on Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:51 pm

Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..."

Acts 12:23 "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory..."
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:03 am

Lightseeker wrote:Isaiah 42:8 "I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another..."

Acts 12:23 "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory..."


:a3:

Many worship the work of the Lord instead of the Lord of the work!
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Postby Sword of Geddon on Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:32 pm

Rick Warren is going to be mighty surprised when he stands before God almighty! And so are all those he says are supposibly saved!

Incidently, Rick Warren's words are the same as those of our President.
"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding." Proverbs 3:5
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:37 pm

I heard this once and think it applies to false teachers:

It's pretty hard to tell the truth when your paycheck depends on not telling it! :(
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Postby runner4jesus on Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:37 pm

Appreciate the labor Roger Oakland has taken on in spite of much opposition; as he exposes the Purpose Driven Life a false, post modern gospel Rick Warren is spreading world wide. Mr. Oakland has aptly blown the trumpet in Zion and many are listening to what he is saying, but many churches have fallen prey. The plans Mr. Warren has for the church has absolutely nothing to do with the commission Jesus gave us. What he proposes is merely a social program and the Message bible to go along with it; giving it's stamp of approval. Thank God, men like Roger Oakland are standing up against the tide of deception.

:armor:
PROCLAIMING THE TRUTH (see profile) John 17:17 Sanctify (set apart) them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
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Postby OneDay on Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:34 pm

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/3-purpose.htm
It's a long article, but really explains this poison.
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Postby runner4jesus on Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:02 am

:a3: Holy Now: That is such an excellent article and very thorough. The PPL is definitely all this article explains. Would recommend everyone to read it and get familiar with it's content. Because that is what is happening in the church today.
PROCLAIMING THE TRUTH (see profile) John 17:17 Sanctify (set apart) them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
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Postby Mrs. B on Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:40 am

Jesus said.....

Matt. 10:34......Think Not that I come to Send Peace on Earth:

I Came Not to Send Peace, But a Sword.....

35.....For I Am Come to set a man at variance against His Father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36.....And a Man's foes shall be they of His Own Household......

37.....He that loveth Father or Mother More than Me is not worthy of me:
and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me...

38....And he that taketh not His Cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.......

39....He that findeth His Life shall lose it:
and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it......

40.....HE THAT RECEIVETH YOU RECEIVETH ME...
and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.....


bb
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Postby runner4jesus on Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:30 am

:a3: Amen! Mrs. B. :a3:
PROCLAIMING THE TRUTH (see profile) John 17:17 Sanctify (set apart) them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
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Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:32 am

I just sat down with a pastor I know, to show him the davos video. He watched most of it and we skipped to Warren's part. This pastor saw nothing wrong with what Rick Warren said, because he mentions that Jesus his Savior is what motivates him. He didn't seem to find anything wrong with the idea that Warren is aligning himself with the ideas of the AOC which is decidedly anti-Christian, as long as God's work is accomplished, what difference does it make?. This pastor I know has had personal conversations with Rick Warren and is convinced that he is a man of God. When I brought up the PDC book, he agreed that the methods Warren uses are not something he himself would employ in his own church, yet he pointed to all that Warren has accomplished in the world by sending out thousands of teams throughout the world to help them build schools, supply medical needs etc.... Though this is an impressive feat to accomplish, I wonder how many people get saved as a result of these works?

Myself I am not so sure. I agree with Mark, the purpose of the church is not to be seeker friendly to the extreme. The purpose of the church is to edify and build up the saints, that would be believers, though we are to be sensitive to unbelievers among us. That doesn't mean we structure our whole service around them. The church itself is for the believer, not the unbeliever. Evangelism is not the church's primary objective, that is the individual believers responsibility. The purpose driven idea, relieves the Christian of that responsibility and tells them to just bring your friends with you to church and we'll do the rest. (by the way I read the book)

My pastor recently presented an idea to our Sunday School class to consider something called "Deeds not Creeds" from the Warren camp. The premise is to do good deeds in your community, without sharing the gospel. The idea is that if you meet peoples "felt" need that they will be drawn to know what makes you tick. While this in itself is not a bad idea, doing good. It is yet another subtle way to put the emphasis on the work rather than the Gospel. Our class basically rejected the idea saying it should be "Deeds AND Creeds" instead.

I think we need to be very careful in discerning the truth about the work of men like Rick Warren. I don't know him personally like the pastor friend I know. So I cannot say for sure what his true motives are. But I can examine what he does and the books he writes. And just because he says Jesus is his motivation, doesn't mean a whole lot to me. Satan is a great deceiver and it would not surprise me at all that he would disguise his deeds in the cloak of what appears to be motivated by Christ.
When I listened to what Rick Warren said at Davos, I heard him give himself a lot of credit, "My church did such and such, I met with government officials, I am working on this and that", he says Jesus is his motivation, but he gave himself all the credit. It's very subtle. His views line right up with the AOC, as long as you are tolerant of other faiths and don't try to push your own, then we can all get along. If somebody asks you about your faith, then you can share it, otherwise keep it to yourself. Or else be branded as a radical extremist.

At the judgment there will be those who say "didn't we prophecy, cast out demons and perform miracles in Your name", and Jesus will say "depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

So we need to examine everything by the Word of God. If parts of it don't line up with the Word then IMO the whole thing is defiled and not of God.

RT
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Postby Mrs. B on Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:23 am

Jesus said....

Luke 13:23.......Then said one unto him...
Lord, are there few that be saved?
And he said unto them,

24....Strive to enter in at the Strait Gate:
for many....I Say unto you....Will seek to enter in, and shall not be able..

25.....When Once the Master of the House is Risen Up, and hath SHut
to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, Saying, LORD, Lord, open unto us;
and He shall Answer and say unto you...I KNOW YOU NOT....Whence ye are:

26.....Then shall ye begin to say....
We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets....

27.....But he shall say.....I TELL YOU, I KNOW YOU NOT WHENCE YE ARE;
DEPART from Me, all ye workers of Iniquity..

28.....There shall be Weeping and gnashing of teeth,
when Ye Shall See Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets, in the Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out...

29.....And they shall come from the East, and from the West, and from the North, and from the South, and shall Sit Down in the KINGDOM OF GOD.....

30.....AND, BEHOLD....There are Last....Which shall be first, and there are First Which shall be Last....

Luke 14:11.....For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased;
and he that Humbleth himself shall be exalted.....

12.....Then said he also to him that bade him,

When thou makest a dinner or a supper, Call Not Thy friends,
nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours;
lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee...


13....But....When thou makest a feast...Call the Poor, the Maimed, the Lame, and the blind:

And thou shalt be blessed:
for they cannot recompense thee:
for thou shalt be recompensed .....
AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST.....

15......And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him....
Blessed is he that shall Eat Bread in the Kingdom of God.....

The last shall be first, and the first will be last...

Luke 14:33......So Likewise, whosoever be he of you
that FORSAKETH NOT ALL that he hath,
He cannot be my disciple....

Straight and Narrow.....
Love your neighbor as yourself......




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Postby runner4jesus on Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:59 am

:a3: Torchlight Resurrection: So we need to examine everything by the Word of God. If parts of it don't line up with the Word then IMO the whole thing is defiled and not of God.

My Comment:
The bottom line is; what Rick Warren says in his books do not line up with the Word of God; that is the measuring stick and we should not buy it hook line and sinker but reject the work. Because it's leading the church down the AOC road which leads to a dead end.

The gospel should be our main focus and the lost who are going to hell. It is the Father that draws the lost using our witness in his word as Jesus commanded us to do for his glory. Doing kind things for people will be a result of our faith; but that should not be the only thing we do. The lost need a witness as to what Jesus said.

:read2: 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word, be instant (urgent, insistent, persistent; earnest) in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
PROCLAIMING THE TRUTH (see profile) John 17:17 Sanctify (set apart) them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
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Postby OneDay on Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:29 pm

Rick Warren and the 'End Times' Apostasy –
http://www.secretsofsurvival.com/surviv ... stasy.html

The Gospel: A Method or a Message?
How the Purpose Driven Life Obscures the Gospel
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue80.htm
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Postby runner4jesus on Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:42 pm

:a3: :a3: Holy Now: Excellent material. One thing that struck me while reading was the point about the "FEAR OF GOD", that is lacking in the church today. I've even seen material that refers to Jesus other than what the Word of God says, such as buddy or something to that effect. Here's a quote from the article you have given in those links.

Article quote: http://www.secretsofsurvival.com/surviv ... stasy.html

The point the Bible makes is that we're supposed to truly fear God. It may sound barbaric to a lot of people, and un-enlightened, however I'm sure there's a reason that God is so stern on that.

The concern shared by those who are against Rick Warren is that his book portrays God as a lot more friendly and a lot more loving than the Bible portrays.

Then when a Christian comes to Christ after reading The Purpose Driven Life, or being taught this kind of doctrine, they don't take sin as seriously as they should.

Why should they take sin seriously? Rick Warren says we're forgiven for our sins (he doesn't say we must now strive to escape sin, and conform to the image of Christ). He says God wants to be our best friend.

At this point, to give a balanced view of the Bible, his book should drive home the reality of Hell and the consequences of disobeying God... but there's barely any mention of Hell.

And it's not described as a Lake of Fire. On page 37, Warren describes Hell as eternal seperation from God.

That's not Hell. That's apostasy.

It has 'New Age' written all over it.
PROCLAIMING THE TRUTH (see profile) John 17:17 Sanctify (set apart) them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
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Postby CaryC on Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:43 am

Hey,

I heard it said a long time ago, and it stills holds true today.

Jesus didn't come to make bad men good, He came to save the lost.

He came to set free those men and women who are bound in chains of sin.

I also think it is interesting that we need a change (of some kind) and a paradigm shift. Does that mean the gospel is not eternal, never ending and the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?
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