Revelation 14:14-16 as PreWrath Rapture

by **The Orange Mailman** on Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:12 pm

Since it's been quiet here, how about another discussion?

I view Revelation 14:14-16 as the rapture, posited between the tribulation (Revelation 13) and the wrath of God (the bowls). The description of the first reaping matches that of the harvest in the parable of the wheat and the tares of Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43. The second reaping is definitely for wrath as it is cast into the great winepress of God's wrath. But the first reaping must have some significance. For those who don't believe it is the rapture, what do you believe it is?

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe." 16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **revelation12eleven** on Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:46 pm

Hey Orange! I've been thinking the same, that someone needed to start a new discussion. Been real quiet in here. I'm with you on this one but I do have a question. The end of verse 15 reads, "for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe." Do you see a correlation between that and the phrase "the fullness of the Gentiles?"

by **The Orange Mailman** on Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:43 pm

Hey Overcomer-

The words for "ripe" in vs. 15 and vs. 18 are two different words. The word found in vs. 15 has to do with becoming dry, like drying grain for the grain harvest. The word in vs. 18 means to come to full maturity, or come to a point. This is one reason why I believe that the two reapings symbolize something completely different.

So it's like the angel is saying that the grain is fully dried out now and ready for harvest. The idea of "fully" ripe (I think) is not there, but that word "fully" is a supplied word. The word for fullness over in Romans 11 doesn't seem to have any direct connection with this, although I would be open to hearing any thoughts on the matter.

However, I believe that when the rapture of the church occurs, that the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. So in my mind there is a connection. Somehow.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. I think it is interesting that the church will have been experiencing the great tribulation as described in Revelation 13. So a "drying out" process will have been occurring.

by **revelation12eleven** on Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:22 pm

I have not looked into the passage like you have. That is fascinating that ripe is two different words. I see the fullness of the Gentiles coming in at the sixth seal as well so I was just wondering what connection you thought there might be, if any.

Thanks...

by **The Orange Mailman** on Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:34 pm

Hello Overcomer-

Yes, the fullness of the Gentiles is definitely at the sixth seal. With the multitude from every nation, tribe, and tongue appearing before the throne of God immediately after the sixth seal, we have a solid connection there. The way I see Revelation 14 is as a parallel passage to the sixth seal. The 144,000 are mentioned at the beginning. The angelic announcements show that the gospel is being preached to the ends of the earth (as per Mark 13:10), Babylon has been judged, and that those who have taken the mark are about to be judged. The voice from heaven shows that the blessed dead are about to enter that blessed rest.

The multitude before the throne (they are beside the sea of glass which means they are before the throne, Rev. 4:6) must be the same multitude as in Revelation 7:9-17. There are just different details revealed in each instance. In Revelation 7, we see that they come OUT FROM the great tribulation. In Revelation 15, we see that they have achieved victory over the beast, most likely by martyrdom, Revelation 12:11. To me, it just makes sense to see the first reaping as this multitude (the church) being harvested from the earth to stand before the LORD as the great tribulation is brought to a close just before the wrath of God is poured out.

There is the testimony that "all nations will come and worship you" indicating somewhat of a transition into the Messianic Kingdom, or perhaps just looking forward to it once the wrath has been poured out. What do you think?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **revelation12eleven** on Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:10 pm

Yes, I can see that (Rev. 15:4) as a reference looking ahead to the nations worshiping in the millennial kingdom. There is very similar wording in Psalm 86:9.

Explain more about the sea of glass and the multitude, if you would...I can't find any reference of the multitude being beside the sea of glass...in Rev. 15:2 there is a reference to a group being on the sea of glass. In Rev. 4:6 there simply is a reference to a sea of glass being before the throne. In Rev. 7:9 the great multitude is standing before the throne...
You are making a connection there it sounds like, between Rev. 4:6, Rev. 7:9, Rev. 15:2. You are saying the multitude before the throne in Rev. 7:9 are those in Rev. 15:2 who come off victorious from the beast...standing on the sea of glass... They are the harvest that is reaped in Rev. 14:15,16. Makes sense... They are before the throne singing the song of Moses as the last of God's wrath is being prepared to be poured out.

Rev. 14:20, definitely a reference to Armageddon.

by **tharkun** on Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:52 am

I would agree with OM that Rev 14:14-16 is a picture of the rapture. It then follows that the second reaping in v 17-20 is to judgment. I'm not clear on whether it simply represents Armageddon or a compressed view of all of the wrath of God. It's kind of a hard mix of symbolic and literal language. If the second raping by the angel is symbolic of Armageddon, is the measurement of blood also symbolic? Most people that I have read don't believe so.

My main issue with Rev 14 is with the chronology of the passage, in particular v 1-5. The declarations of the 3 angels are clearly sequential given that v 8 & 9 both indicate that one FOLLOWED the previous one. Further, the parenthetical statement of v 12-13 seems to be sequential after the angels since we are told that those who die in the Lord FROM NOW ON, are blessed. This most naturally would refer to the time immediately after the 3 angels declarations. But if we then assume that v 1-5 occur BEFORE the 3 angels, what are the implications for Rev 7? Wouldn't this mean that the 3 angels occur between the sealing of the 144,000 but before the rapture? And if v 13 implies the GT, would this mean that the 144,000 are sealed prior to the 6th seal sign? Or are v 1-5 not sequential with the rest of the chapter and rather represent where the 144,000 end up at the end of the 70th week when Israel is saved? But then why would the whole chapter seem to be in a chronological order except for the first 5 verses?

There just aren't enough textual indicators for me to be sure. Any thoughts?

tharkun

by **revelation12eleven** on Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:06 am

Tharkun,

I do think the first 5 verses of chapter 14 are out of chronological order to the other events that are described in the chapter, when you compare this passage with others in scripture. I think that is the key, comparing Revelation with all of scripture, and Orange seems to be a master at that. Sometimes I think the man-made chapter breaks throw a wrench at us. Revelation does appear to give us events that run chronologically for a time and then it backs up, moves forward, zeros in...it certainly is a challenge (and fun) to try to make all the puzzle pieces fit.

What are the other views as to what the first reaping is?

by **Finaldash** on Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:21 am

by **watching** on Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:36 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Hey Overcomer-

The words for "ripe" in vs. 15 and vs. 18 are two different words. The word found in vs. 15 has to do with becoming dry, like drying grain for the grain harvest. The word in vs. 18 means to come to full maturity, or come to a point. This is one reason why I believe that the two reapings symbolize something completely different.

Hi OM,

Interesting observation!

I don't have any idea how many harvests there will be (whether it's one or more than one) or when it/they might occur (whether it's simultaneously, consecutively, or separated over the course of a year or a number of years) or anything for that matter.

In any case, here are just a few verses to ponder:

Matthew 13:24-30 (King James Version)

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

John 4:35-38 (King James Version)

35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

38I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

Mark 4:26-29 (King James Version)

26And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

27And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.

28For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

29But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Agriculturally speaking, however, the wheat harvest, from what I understand, ripens in late spring (around the time of Pentecost) while the grape harvest ripens about four months later during late summer/early fall (around the time of the Fall Feasts).

Leviticus 23 (King James Version)

Leviticus 23

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.

6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

7In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

8But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

9And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

10Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

11And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

12And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

13And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

14And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

15And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:

16Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

17Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.

18And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the LORD.

19Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.

20And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.

21And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.

22And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

23And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

24Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

25Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

26And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

27Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

28And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.

29For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

30And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

31Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

32It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

33And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

34Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.

35On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

36Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

37These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:

38Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

39Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

40And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

41And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

42Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:

43That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

44And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

by **The Orange Mailman** on Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:59 pm

Explain more about the sea of glass and the multitude, if you would...

Hey Overcomer-

I was reading ESV when I was responding to you. It reads...

And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire -- and also those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.

Whether or not the word for "beside" is correct there, the mention of the sea of glass must be the same sea of glass mentioned earlier in the book of Revelation. The word "epi" can have a variety of applications. Since we know the sea of glass is right before the throne of God, then the multitude is directly before the throne of God which is exactly where the other multitude was/is.

Now isn't our basic foundation that the great tribulation [of which the multitude of Rev. 7:9-17 comes out of] is the same time of the beast, the false prophet, and the mark of the beast? So when we see those which are victorious over the beast before the throne of God, we must believe that they have come out from the great tribulation. Where else in time will the mark of the beast be instituted but in the great tribulation?

So those are some more thoughts on why I believe Revelation 14 is a parallel passage to Revelation 7.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **The Orange Mailman** on Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:20 pm

Tharkun, you've got a keen eye there. If we employ a strict chronological approach to everything, we will surely find some discrepancies. I think Overcomers points are well put. Sometimes some background information is given. Sometimes additional information is given later on that parallels something earlier revealed.

then it backs up, moves forward, zeros in...

One of your concerns can be addressed. The sixth seal signs do not appear at all in Revelation 14. Any attempt to read them in would be senseless. We can speculate, but since God didn't reveal them there, we just can't be sure. So when we see the 144,000 on Mount Zion, we see them with the Lamb's name and the Father of the Lamb's name in their foreheads. But are they sealed? Maybe. Probably. Or are they sealed a bit later in the passage just before the first reaping? I realize this doesn't directly address your concerns, but I'm just presenting options. What do you think?

As far as the three angels, they do seem to be sequential. The content of their messages seems to be like an overview of the entire great tribulation period. The gospel will be preached during that entire period under intense persecution. Babylon will be judged during that time, Rev. 17:16-17. And the torment of the ones who take the mark will not receive it at that time, but they can be assured that they will because of their actions during the great tribulation. The announcement, to me anyway, seems to show that the time period is coming to a close and the coming of Christ is "at the door". The three messages can be taken by the saints to be reason for endurance in their faith, Rev. 14:12.

The second reaping is more difficult in my opinion. The descriptiveness of the event seems have details that cannot be interpreted symbolically. But will there be a literal winepress? I think not. That is symbolic, but the blood flowing at a certain level for a certain distance seems to be literal. The solution could be that initially at the first part of God's wrath that this literally happens, with the entire grape harvest being crushed beneath the weight of God's wrath as the wrath of God continues. So the winepress is symbolic of the whole wrath of God, and includes Armageddon. The event of the blood flowing out from the city (Jerusalem) most likely lines up with the beginning of God's wrath at the first trumpet (which I believe runs parallel with the first bowl).

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **The Orange Mailman** on Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:34 pm

Watching, you bring up an important point. The word for "harvest" in verse 15 is the word therismos, which carries with it the ideas of

the gathering of men into the kingdom of God
referring to time of reaping, the final judgment, when the righteous are gathered into the kingdom of God and the wicked are cast into hell for ever

It is used only eight times in the NT. The other seven are Matthew 9:37-38, Matthew 13:30, 39, Mark 4:29, Luke 10:2, and John 4:35. A quick study of these instances will show that the word always refers to the harvesting of souls into the kingdom of God in conjunction with the end of the age. It never refers to judgement. That is quite telling. This word does not appear in the passage dealing with the grape harvest, or actually it is a gathering using the word "trugao". Again we see different language when describing the grain harvest and the grape harvest, or maybe we should use the word vintage when speaking of the grapes.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **revelation12eleven** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:25 am

Orange wrote,
Now isn't our basic foundation that the great tribulation [of which the multitude of Rev. 7:9-17 comes out of] is the same time of the beast, the false prophet, and the mark of the beast? So when we see those which are victorious over the beast before the throne of God, we must believe that they have come out from the great tribulation. Where else in time will the mark of the beast be instituted but in the great tribulation?

Agree...

Do you think the sea of glass is a literal sea of glass? Just what do you think that might be? I can hardly imagine the gloriousness of being around the throne of God... In our church we have a cross window behind the pulpit. When I am shooting a wedding, sometimes the reflection of my flash will show up in the window. I guess I'm thinking this sea of glass will reflect the glory of God...how amazing will that be?!

by **The Orange Mailman** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:19 pm

And WE will be white as snow and clothed in white as well. We will reflect God's glory. Ever been outside when there's snow on the ground and it's bright sunshine? You can get blinded. We just may blind a few people inadvertantly as God's glory shines so purely off from us.

As far as the sea of glass, I have no idea. Is it a sea of water but like glass? Or is it actual glass? No clue.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **revelation12eleven** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:17 pm

Ever been outside when there's snow on the ground and it's bright sunshine? You can get blinded.

Only in California. The sun doesn't shine in Washington, in the winter...just kidding, it's not that bad, but I really can't think of a time of being in the snow in WA when the sun shone.

We will reflect the glory of God...wow...of course as His image bearers, dressed in His righteousness now, we should be...but we sure can mess up at times...

by **watching** on Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:34 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Watching, you bring up an important point. The word for "harvest" in verse 15 is the word therismos, which carries with it the ideas of

the gathering of men into the kingdom of God
referring to time of reaping, the final judgment, when the righteous are gathered into the kingdom of God and the wicked are cast into hell for ever

It is used only eight times in the NT. The other seven are Matthew 9:37-38, Matthew 13:30, 39, Mark 4:29, Luke 10:2, and John 4:35. A quick study of these instances will show that the word always refers to the harvesting of souls into the kingdom of God in conjunction with the end of the age. It never refers to judgement. That is quite telling. This word does not appear in the passage dealing with the grape harvest, or actually it is a gathering using the word "trugao". Again we see different language when describing the grain harvest and the grape harvest, or maybe we should use the word vintage when speaking of the grapes.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

Hi OM,

Thanks for pointing that out. I probably should have said reapings (even though that's not a word according to my spell check feature).

Thanks to you and others, though, I am realizing how important it is to look at the original words that were written in Greek in order to get a better understanding of the scriptures.

It's interesting that the word ripe was not actually used in either Rev. 14 verse 15 or 18.

Revelation 14:14-20 (King James Version)

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

As you already pointed out, the word in verse 15 translated as ripe, actually means "dry" edit: "dried up" and the word in verse 18 translated as ripe, actually means "fully mature."

In light of the latter and your above post, I would like to clarify my earlier comments regarding the grape "harvest."

While grapes probably begin to ripen around late summer (I'm just guessing, sort of) and begin to be harvested, it's probably not until at some point during the time of the Fall Feasts (September/October), that the grapes are "fully mature". This would probably be the point in time when a vineyard owner would want to have all the grapes gathered and pressed so they could be turned into wine, so that they would not go to waste since this would probably be the end of the season (again I'm just guessing.)edit: in other words, the point where they're as ripe as they can possibly get.

second edit made above for clarity

by **watching** on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:03 am

Hi OM,

I was just thinking about what I had said earlier, and I just wanted to clarify for anyone reading this, that I am not in any way implying there will not be a harvest for the Kingdom of God during the Fall Feasts (which there are three, btw, The Feast of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles) because, of course, I don't know how anything written in the book of Revelation may or may not correlate with the Feast Days and what might or might not happen on a certain Feast Day.

I just want to make it clear that I was only referring to the grapes that are cast into the great wine press of the wrath of God, that appear to not be part of the harvest.

by **rizen** on Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:09 am

As you already pointed out, the word in verse 15 translated as ripe, actually means "dry" edit: "dried up" and the word in verse 18 translated as ripe, actually means "fully mature."

Hi watching,

It's interesting to me how these translations have polar opposite meanings. The "dried up" grain have emptied themselves, while the grapes have fattened themselves--presumably for a great slaughter.

The second reaping is more difficult in my opinion. The descriptiveness of the event seems have details that cannot be interpreted symbolically. But will there be a literal winepress? I think not. That is symbolic, but the blood flowing at a certain level for a certain distance seems to be literal. The solution could be that initially at the first part of God's wrath that this literally happens, with the entire grape harvest being crushed beneath the weight of God's wrath as the wrath of God continues.

Hi Orange,

I think you're correct about the entire grape harvest being crushed by the weight God's wrath as the wrath of God continues. It's also interesting how Isaiah 63 appears to symbolically represents this grape harvest when it is first trodden.

Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. (Isa. 63:1-4)

I find it interesting how this passage alludes to Jesus staining all his raiment when He begins to tread the grapes ("winefat"). I wonder if this might infer how His garments were white before this. Before Jesus descends with the saints at Armageddon, Rev. 19:13 describes how the "vesture" of Jesus is "dipped in blood".

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev. 19:11-13)

Does this “vesture dipped in blood” speak to the idea His garments are already stained (and hence God's wrath has already begun) before He descends with the saints at Armageddon? Can a vesture dipped in blood be stained? Is Armageddon merely the “final press” in a series of presses? When Jesus reaps the grain harvest in the white cloud does He wear a white garment?

Jesus descends in white cloud at grain reaping = white robe? = pre-wrath
Jesus mounts horse before armageddon = vesture dipped in blood = post-wrath?

Also, if I'm not mistaken, don't grapes have to be trampled before they are placed in the winepress? I think a modern winepress is used to extract the remaining juices left over after they have been trampled. Maybe someone familiar with how an ancient winepress actually works could comment.

by **rizen** on Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:47 am

Do you think the sea of glass is a literal sea of glass? Just what do you think that might be?

Hi Overcomer (aka "revelation12eleven"),

The "sea of glass" in Rev. 15 is "mingled with fire". I can't help but be reminded of how this seems to represent the OT shadow of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego coming out of the fire in Daniel 3.

Also telling is the fact this "throne of glass" is likened unto "crystal" in Rev. 4:6. This is telling because Job 28:17 equates the value of crystal unto gold.

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal...(Rev. 4:6)

The gold and the crystal cannot equal it: and the exchange of it shall not be for jewels of fine gold. (Job 28:17)

The context of Job 28:12 likens value of wisdom greater than the finest gold ("crystal"). I believe the fact these "overcomers standing" on the sea of glass mingled with fire are relating three key facts.

1. They have been refined as gold through the "fire" of the great trib. (like the grain that was "dry" in Rev. 14:15).
2. They are "wise". More valuable than even the finest gold ("crystal")
3. These will "stand" at the DOTL. Remember the refrain in Rev. 6:17:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Answer: The martyrs will.

Not only will they stand, but not one hair of there head will have been "singed" (Dan. 3:27, Luke 21:18) when they come out of the great tribulation. This will happen in spite of the fact they were literally martyred. They were accounted worthy to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of man.

by **rizen** on Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:11 am

Just to clarify my last post. I didn't intend to imply that the only viable means of escape will be martyrdom. There will be living saints as well that will be raptured when Jesus gathers the saints in the sky. However, Rev. 15:2 makes it clear that martyrdom is a viable means of escape after the Antichrist is revealed.

by **revelation12eleven** on Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:30 pm

I like your thoughts Rizen, thanks...I do think the Rev. 19:11-13 reference to Jesus having a robe dipped in blood speaks to the fact that He has been engaged in pouring out His wrath. It makes sense that His robe would be white at the opening of the sixth seal and when He descends at Armageddon the blood represents the pouring out of His wrath that has been going on since the 1st trumpet.

by **RRiley** on Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:21 am

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Could it be that this verse -Rev 14:15- is the fulfillment of Dan 12:13?

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

by **The Orange Mailman** on Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:34 pm

Hi Watching-

I understand you. There is the "harvest" which is the spiritual harvest (therismos), then there is what I term the vintage. It's interesting that you should mention the feasts. Rosenthal has a book out on them. It is a book I have thought about purchasing but haven't yet. Has anyone here read it?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **The Orange Mailman** on Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Hello Rizen, thanks for the response.

I suppose we can't very well discuss the first reaping in 14:14-16 without getting into the winepress as well. They seem to be intricately linked. Perhaps we could say the two events are concomitant.

That's an interesting point about when His robes will be stained with blood. Isaiah 63 seems to state it fairly clear that these robes are stained because of the winepress, which He trampled in His wrath (during the day of vengeance) (because the year of redemption had come) (when His own arm brings salvation...) well let's just post the passage for crying out loud. Here it is in ESV trying to preserve the poetry.

1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
in crimsoned garments from Bozrah,
he who is splendid in his apparel,
marching in the greatness of his strength?
"It is I, speaking in righteousness,
mighty to save."
2 Why is your apparel red,
and your garments like his who treads in the winepress?
3 "I have trodden the winepress alone,
and from the peoples no one was with me;
I trod them in my anger
and trampled them in my wrath;
their lifeblood spattered on my garments,
and stained all my apparel.
4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart,
and my year of redemption had come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help;
I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold;
so my own arm brought me salvation,
and my wrath upheld me.
6 I trampled down the peoples in my anger;
I made them drunk in my wrath,
and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth."

Wow, there is a lot there. But back to the original point. Here is Christ coming to save. But He has already tread the winepress and His garments are stained. If we line this up with Isaiah 34 (which I believe we should because of the mention of Edom and Bozrah) then we see there is still a great slaughter which He is about to accomplish which leads directly into the Messianic Kingdom (Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 65-66 in the other).

So when we see Christ at Armageddon, He has already begun to trample the winepress, hence His garments are stained with blood, or here it states that it is a robe dipped in or sprinkled with blood, Revelation 19:13. This is the only place in the book that we see this characteristic.

Now if I might take this a step further. We see that Christ comes initially, raptures the church (which is the harvest of the Son of Man). Immediately after this, the winepress is begun to be trampled by the LORD in His wrath. The trumpet judgements could easily be read here along with the bowl judgements. With these the blood begins to flow here on earth while the church is safely in the presence of God, standing on the crystal sea, or beside the crystal sea. Both the trumpets and the bowls are occurring simultaneously, perhaps the first of each, then the second of each, etc. Then at the very end when Christ is leading His people personally, and the nations gather around Him, His garments are already stained with the blood of the wicked which have been slain by His wrath thus far. The nations surround Him, but He destroys them all ensuring deliverance for the kingdom come. This brings the 1260 days period to an end.

Perhaps we could view Armageddon as the last "stomp" in the winepress which occurs at the seventh bowl. What do you think?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **watching** on Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:28 pm

Hi OM,

The Orange Mailman wrote:I understand you. There is the "harvest" which is the spiritual harvest (therismos), then there is what I term the vintage. It's interesting that you should mention the feasts. Rosenthal has a book out on them. It is a book I have thought about purchasing but haven't yet. Has anyone here read it?

I haven't read any books on this, but there are some audios you can listen to on the Feasts of the Lord on Mark Biltz's website. I haven't heard all of them myself. Maybe, I should listen to them as well.

The Orange Mailman wrote:So when we see Christ at Armageddon, He has already begun to trample the winepress, hence His garments are stained with blood, or here it states that it is a robe dipped in or sprinkled with blood, Revelation 19:13. This is the only place in the book that we see this characteristic.

Your use of the word "sprinkled" incited my curiosity and inspired me to check and see what word was actually used in the original Greek. Like you and rizen, I always imagined a white garment with maybe the bottom corner of it dipped and stained with a little blood. But in actuality the word used in the Greek means immersed or dyed. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G911&t=KJV I don't know if you've heard me mention this before, but I happen to be Greek. And this is the same word I would use today (or a form thereof), if I wanted to say, for example, that I was going to dye my hair.

What's also interesting to me is, as you can see from the link that this word has only been used three times in the NT according to the Blue Letter Bible.

Ironically, whenever I imagined Jesus dipping and handing the sop (bread) to Judas, I always imagined that they were eating hummus or something like that. But now I realize that it must have been dipped in the wine. And I am becoming more convinced, as I have heard suggested before and was already speculating, that the only thing eaten that night was the bread and the wine. Of course, I can't be sure of this, so I'm not being emphatic about it, because I could be wrong, but as far as I know those were the only two things mentioned as being eaten during the Last Supper.

by **jgilberAZ** on Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:42 pm

I have Rosenthal's book on the feasts of the Lord.

I found it to be quite interesting.

I've loaned it out, and they found it to be very good, too.

- Jeff

by **The Orange Mailman** on Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:38 pm

Hey Watching-

That's an interesting study on the word bapto. I didn't realize that you are Greek. I put both dipped in and sprinkled with in my post because of a footnote in my Bible. It reads "some manuscripts sprinkled with". This would get into a textual criticism study which is beyond me. I wouldn't know which text is more reliable or not. I also wouldn't know what Greek word these other manuscripts used in this instance. Perhaps I can check into it, but it seems slightly moot because either way there is blood on His garment. Whether it was dipped in or the blood was sprinkled on wouldn't seem to affect any important doctrine in my humble view.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **watching** on Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:52 pm

Hi OM,

I wasn't in any way criticizing your use of the word "sprinkle." In fact, I just noticed Isaiah 63:1-4 in the King James Version also uses that word.

I was simply commenting on my visual image, which I presumed that you and rizen may have also had, of the garment being, for the most part, white, but with just a small part dipped in blood, as opposed to the whole garment immersed or splattered with blood.

Also, I didn't mean to imply as to what doctrinal significance it may have, but there was some discussion as to whether the trampling might occur in stages, and at what stage Revelation 19:13 might correlate with. But I'm not trying to make any implications on that matter. I'm just commenting on my visual image before and after looking up the word that was used.

However, I would like to mention that after reading the Isaiah passage again, and after having done a word study on the word "βάπτω" I can see much better now how the verses in Isaiah seem to correspond with Revelation 19 in terms of imagery, specifically in relation to the garment being dipped in blood.

Here is the Isaiah passage again:

Isaiah 63:1-4 (King James Version)

1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

by **The Orange Mailman** on Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:24 pm

Hey Watching-

I didn't take anything as critical. In fact, I threw a couple of lines in the water and got a bite. Here's what one had to say:

The word, dipped, is a perfect passive participle of bapto (not, baptidzo).
Bapto occurs three times in the New Testament, and means to dip or to dye. It
does not mean to splatter or even to sprinkle.

There is uncertainty about the correct reading, as a considerable number of
manuscripts have the word, rantidzo, which means to sprinkle. Accordingly, the
various commentators will likewise differ in their views.
A Textual Commentary of the Greek New Testament provides this analysis.
Among the many variant readings bebammenon [bapto] appears to be both the
best supported and most likely to provoke change. Either the absence of EN [in]
with the following HAIMATI [blood] or, more probably, the feeling that the
context (and perhaps also the recollection of Is. 63:3) made bapto less
appropriate to express the sense than raino, or its collateral rantidzo
[sprinkle], prompted copyists to substitute" that verb for bapto.

Actually, the choice between these two primary readings does not change the
meaning, for in either case the idea is that of an intentional, specific
placement of blood on the garment, rather than a haphazard splattering or
staining as is described at Isaiah 63:1-4, that would come from crushing
grapes.
Here at Revelation 19:13, the garments are seen to be dipped in blood BEFORE the
Lord begins to crush the grapes in the winepress.

The meaning then would be to show us the Lord IN PREPARATION for battle.
It was common in these ancient cultures, to DIP a garment or a weapon in blood,
in order to show dedication to the intent of victory and total defeat of the
enemy.
The garment dipped in blood would be anticipatory of Christ's victory over the
rebellious armies of the world that are gathered in the Valley of Megido.

So most likely what happened is that some copyists saw the similarity with the Isaiah 63 passage and substituted the word for "sprinkle" to accord with that prophecy. The word "bapto" is most likely the original word. So this "dipping" that takes place might not be the splattering that occurs in Isaiah 63.

I'm just commenting on my visual image before and after looking up the word that was used.

It's quite a graphic visual image, I might add. In Isaiah 63, Revelation 14, and Revelation 19, they all tell the tale quite vividly. My mind has been racing on this as well, and I'm sort of thinking out loud here. If His garments are dipped in blood just before Armageddon, has He come from another battle, such as Isaiah 34? Or is this symbolic of something else, like a dedication such as is mentioned above?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. Another had this to say:

There is some (25% in my opinion) textual doubt to the reading.

There is a cluster of variants for "sprinkled" attested in some relatively
important MSS for the book of Revelation. But one of the most important---if not
the most important---MSS for Revelation is "A" which attests to "dip," along
with a few other important MSS.

Most likely the variant for "sprinkled" gave rise to harmonize with Isaiah 63:6.

by **watching** on Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:41 am

Hi OM,

Thanks for looking that up, but I tend to disagree with the commentary that you posted, because, on the contrary, it does seem to me that it is quite possible that Isaiah 63:1-4 may possibly somehow correlate with Revelation 19:13, especially since the consensus seems to be that the original word used in Revelation 19:13 was most likely "babemmeno" which literally means "dyed."

Because look at the Isaiah passage again:

Isaiah 63:1-4 (King James Version)

1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

emphasis added mine

edit: I'm not saying that there definitely is a correlation, only that there appear to be certain similarities. And if so,

I'm not sure what this would mean in terms of the sequence of events, of course, but regardless of whether the "dyed" garment was mentioned first in Revelation 19, before the armies, the imagery, as a whole, from what I'm understanding, appears, to me, to be, in the context of the battle described in verses 11 through 21. But, again, please see for yourself, because I definitely do not want to misinterpret anything.

Here is Revelation 19 in it's entirety:

Revelation 19 (King James Version)

1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

edit: I just wanted to add, that I am not in any way implying whether there may or may not have been a prior occurrence, because, of course, I don't know. I'm just saying, regardless of whatever the case may be, the description of the "vesture dipped in blood" is given within the context of what would be the battle that is described in the following passages as quoted above, from what I'm understanding.

Btw, at the risk of sounding ignorant, or maybe I should say, at the risk of revealing my ignorance, how many manuscripts are there in the Greek?

The only way I know of checking the ancient Greek is by looking at Bible Gateway, which has three translations in the Greek, and I always pick: 1550 Stephanus New Testament, because it's the oldest.

But I decided to check the other two versions in the Greek, and it turns out that 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament uses the word "ρεραντισμενον" [rantidzo], but 1894 Scrivener New Testament, as well as 1550 Stephanus New Testament, use the word "βεβαμμενον" (bebammenon) [bapto].

So, how does one know what is the original version? Like I said before, I always just use the oldest. :dunno:

In any case, here are some of my thoughts on the word [bapto]:

First let me say, I don't know very much about Ancient Greek, but in terms of how the word is used today, in my experience, it can also mean "painted." In other words, it doesn't necessarily have to be dyed by immersion, although it can be. For example, I would use the word "bapto," or a form thereof, if I wanted to say, I was going to paint my nails, or even the wall. But there is also a specific word for "paint" but it is usually only used if you are actually using paint because it is the verb form of the noun, "paint". For instance, I would not say, I was going to "paint" my nails using that word. That would sound silly. Does this make any sense?

by **The Orange Mailman** on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:45 pm

Hey Watching-

The two passages are certainly related. I'm not trying to segregate them at all. I had originally thought they were strictly parallel occurring at exactly the same time, but now I'm backing up and re-examining this again. Perhaps they are related but not occurring at the same time. Maybe close together. Anyway, I'm still processing.

Concerning manuscripts, I don't know much. But here is my limited knowledge. I'll use the terms I'm familiar with. There are texts, which are compilations of writings handed down. The most common is the Textus Receptus. This was basically unchallenged for many years. But with modern scholarship discovering manuscripts which sometimes varied from the "received text", they went back and revamped. Wescott-Hort came under fire originally for "changing the Word of God" in departing from the Textus Receptus.

The manuscripts are very early documents usually denoted by a letter, or if a papyrus, a P then a number. The idea in studying them is that because they are dated earlier than the copies of copies of copies, maybe they are more accurate. However, in my opinion, it may be that these documents were set aside and not used because they contained an error. As the Word of God went forth in the time of the early church, copies of certain books were sent across the world, upon which other copies were made of those. So any error or divergence contained in one would be contained in other copies made. These groups of manuscripts which are similar are usually termed "families".

One of the issues is that the Textus Receptus comes to us by way of Latin. The authors of the NT wrote in Greek though. But with the Roman Empire making Christianity the state religion, the manuscripts were translated into Latin and that became the standard for hundreds of years. So modern scholarship going back to study the original Greek is a good thing. Anyway....

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. I follow you on your paint explanation.

by **watching** on Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:07 am

Hi OM,

Thanks for answering my question regarding the Greek manuscripts.

The Orange Mailman wrote:The two passages are certainly related. I'm not trying to segregate them at all. I had originally thought they were strictly parallel occurring at exactly the same time, but now I'm backing up and re-examining this again. Perhaps they are related but not occurring at the same time. Maybe close together. Anyway, I'm still processing.

I guess it all depends on whether the winepress is literal or symbolic, and whether the pressing of the grapes occurs on a specific day, or over a period of time, among other possible variables.

In any case, I find it interesting that in the following description:

Revelation 19:11-21 (King James Version)

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Only the Lord's vesture is "dipped in blood." The horse that the Lord sat on is white. And to quote the scripture: "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Could this be because the battle in the verses following has not begun yet and the trodding of the grapes occurred prior to that? Or could it be that the trodding of the grapes is about to begin and although the armies of the Lord are present, could it be that they will not be involved in the treading?

Because if the latter is true, that may corroborate with what was written in Isaiah 63:

Isaiah 63:1-6 (King James Version)

1Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

5And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

6And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

emphasis added mine

Actually, either way, it would corroborate with Isaiah 63, because either way it would be the Lord who "treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

But, just to be clear, I am not saying either of the options above is correct or incorrect or that those are the only two options. I'm just asking the question as something to think about, because I definitely do not know the answer to the question. But above all, I do not want to add or take anything away from what is written in the scriptures. That's why I posted the scriptures themselves above, because in the end, that's the only thing that matters, not anything I say, of course.

by **The Orange Mailman** on Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:23 pm

I guess it all depends on whether the winepress is literal or symbolic,

Of course it must be symbolic in some ways. The grain harvest is meant to symbolize the gathering of the righteous to the Son of Man as He comes on a cloud. The reaping of the grapes, or vintage, is meant to symbolize the setting apart the wicked for destruction. Jesus isn't interested in having a glass of wine here, He's pouring out His wrath.

But on the other hand, the language is so specific that it's hard to take in a symbolic way. When the blood flows, it seems obvious to me that the juice from the grapes is symbolic of blood, but the blood isn't symbolic. It's literal blood. Since that it literal, then the distance that it flows must be literal as well. If so, we have an event whereby a great sum of people will be slaughtered dead all at once with their blood flowing out of their bodies in sort of a river.

and whether the pressing of the grapes occurs on a specific day, or over a period of time, among other possible variables.

So here's my answer. It's symbolic, but when the Messiah begins to work that winepress, the first batch of juice creates an event described in Rev. 14:20. The whole of the wrath is pictured in that winepress. But the blood flowing, probably along with water, will occur at the first trumpet as the wrath begins. This is explained in Mo Dardinger's book The Great Winepress is not Armageddon.

Could this be because the battle in the verses following has not begun yet and the trodding of the grapes occurred prior to that? Or could it be that the trodding of the grapes is about to begin and although the armies of the Lord are present, could it be that they will not be involved in the treading?

I don't think that the armies which follow Christ in Rev. 19 are in any way responsible for slaughtering the masses. I believe that it is Messiah alone who does the judging, and the armies willingly follow Him, Psalm 110. I'm open to hearing other views though.

So hypothetically speaking, Jesus descends, raptures the church (grain harvest), than begins to pour out His wrath. He begins to trample the grapes which causes a specific event (first trumpet) whereby blood flows for 200 miles in a river from Jerusalem. Then subsequent to that, there is a massing of armies which causes Messiah to proceed to Bozrah and pronounce an awful judgement there which will result in some portions of the earth being completely uninhabitable during the millennium, Isaiah 34. He then ascends to the valley of decision, or Megiddo, where the armies of nearly all the earth will rebel against the newly anointed King of the earth. At Armageddon, the armies of heaven follow Him whose garments are "bapto" with blood because of the earlier events. He speaks, they die. The birds are supernaturally summoned to devour the flesh, otherwise disease could break out. The Messianic Kingdom begins to extend to the ends of the earth as the Gentiles learn to trust in the Messiah.

I think it's do-able. So will the Edom/Bozrah event take place in that literal locale? Zechariah 12 states that the LORD will first save the tents of Judah before saving Jerusalem. This would mean He saves the area south of Jerusalem first, going in the direction of Edom/Bozrah. Later He comes back to save Jerusalem, which means He could then go north of Jerusalem to meet the armies of the earth at Megiddo.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **revelation12eleven** on Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:29 am

I'm enjoying your discussion Orange and Watching... Orange, you said that some portions of the earth will be completely uninhabitable during the millennium then you mention Isaiah 34. It definitely is referring to God's wrath during the day of vengeance. Verse 9 says the land shall become burning pitch...then into verse 10 it says its smoke (Edom's) shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall be desolate; none shall pass through it forever and ever, but the pelican and hedgehog shall possess it - v. 11. My thoughts are going back to our new heavens and new earth discussion. Your view is that the new heavens, new earth, and new Jerusalem all occur prior to the millennium. (I'm still thinking the NJ is on earth during the millennium but still not quite there with a new heavens and new earth yet.) If you hold to a NH and NE occurring prior to the millennium, it sounds like the Lord leaves this area alone... Not trying to derail the present discussion but this mention of desolation being from generation to generation, and none passing through it forever and ever...I'm just trying to figure out how that works with a new earth...

by **Mrs. B** on Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:52 am

Revelation 14: 14-16 as Prewrath Rapture.....

The Life is in the Blood......

or without Blood there is NO Life....

when I was young it was thought that if you had an heart attack.....then you were dead...
But...medical doctors learned that if they could start the heart beating again that they could save a life.
That the life was not in the heart but In the Blood....

without the shedding of Blood....there was no life......Spiritual Life comes from Jesus...
without Jesus shedding His Blood we would not have Spiritual Life.....
The Life or Eternal life is by the Spirit.....New Life....Born again by the Spirit...

Only Jesus is Worthy to Judge the Whole World....He shedded His Blood so He then Judges..the wine press is the world Judgment...

Rev. 5:2...And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice...
WHO IS WORTHY TO OPEN THE BOOK, AND TO LOOSE THE SEALS THEREOF?

3....And NO MAN in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth...was able to open the book, neither to look thereon...

4....And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, Neither to Look Thereon....

5....And one of the elders saith unto me....Weep Not:
Behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the Book,
and to loose the seven seals thereof...

Only Jesus was qualified to open the book......The Book of Judgment and to open the 7 seals...
to judge the world....

9....And they sung a New Song saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain, and has redeemed us to God by thy BLOOD,
out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10....And hast made us unto our God..... Kings and Priest:
and we shall reign on the earth....

First Fruit?????

What was the First Fruit......
A Harvest always had a First Fruit.....
Penticost?
So at world Harvest.....will there be a First Fruit?

The clothing dipped in Blood or sprinkled with blood....
Only Jesus could Judge the wicked.....
and the wine press was the blood of the wicked....because Jesus alone is able to Judge....He alone could judge Righteously.....
was he baptized in the blood of the wicked?

This earth will be changed.....renewed...and all the Born of God Believers will Rule and Reign on this Renewed
earth for 1000 years.....Then The End of this world will be Judged by Jesus...World Judgment....

Then the New Heavens and the New Earth will come down from the Father...
and this old world will be destroyed with fire....

Read Isaiah 11....

11:4....But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:
and he shall Smite the Earth with the Rod of His Mouth, and with the Breath of His Lips shall he slay the wicked....

5....And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins..

6...The Wolf also shall dwell with the Lamb, and the Leopard shall lie down with the kid;
and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them...

8...And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice den...

9....They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My Holy Mountain:
for THE EARTH SHALL BE FULL OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD,AS THE WATERS COVER THE SEA...

11.....And it shall come to pass in That Day....
that the Lord shall Set His Hand Again the Second Time to Recover the Remnant of His People,
Which shall BE LEFT, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the Islands of the Sea...

This is during the 1000 Reign.....

Paul wrote...to Romans the Gentile Christians...
Romans 8:16......The Spirit itself beareth witness with Our Spirit, that we are the Children of God:

17....And if Children, then Heirs; Heirs of God, and Joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him,
that we may be also Glorified Together.

18.....For I reckon that the Suffering OF THIS PRESENT TIME....are not worthy to be Compared with the Glory which shall be Revealed in us....
19....For The Earnest Expectation of the Creature Waiteth.....for the Manifestation of the Sons of God....

The manifestation of the sons of God is the 1000 years....when we will Rule and Reign with Him on this Earth...
We will be in our new bodies....and there will be those who WILL BE LEFT.....and we will rule with Jesus on this Earth...

It will be like God intented it to be before sin...
the devil will be bound...and to die at a hundred years of age will be like a child..
Then at the end.....satan will be loosed for a season....and then the GWTG....

Habakkuk 2:14....For the Earth shall be filled with the Knowledge of the Glory of the Lord, as the Waters cover the Sea......

I love this....the Knowledge of the Glory of the Lord.....as waters cover the sea....we will Know Him and rule and reign with Him.....Glory...it will be worth it all when we see Jesus and will rule and reign with him..
Jesus said.....Thy Will be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven...amen...The Kingdom of God Will be on This Earth for a thousand years.......amen

Mrs. B

by **watching** on Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:06 am

Hi OM,

The Orange Mailman wrote:
watching wrote:
Could this be because the battle in the verses following has not begun yet and the trodding of the grapes occurred prior to that? Or could it be that the trodding of the grapes is about to begin and although the armies of the Lord are present, could it be that they will not be involved in the treading?

I don't think that the armies which follow Christ in Rev. 19 are in any way responsible for slaughtering the masses. I believe that it is Messiah alone who does the judging, and the armies willingly follow Him, Psalm 110. I'm open to hearing other views though.

I probably didn't pose my question correctly.

I think that if the battle described in Revelation 19:11-21 is by any chance (I'm not saying that it is or isn't, because I don't know) synonymous with the winepress, then it seems to me that the armies of the Lord would not be involved because of what is written in Isaiah 63:3

3I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

And my point was that that might explain why:

watching wrote:Only the Lord's vesture is "dipped in blood." The horse that the Lord sat on is white. And to quote the scripture: "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

But if the battle described in Revelation 19:11-21 is not synonymous with the winepress, I don't know if the armies of the Lord will be involved, in any way, in the battle, other than by their presence. However, I also don't know of any scripture that indicates that they would be. (That's not saying much, though, because I certainly don't know everything that's written in the scriptures.) So, I guess you could say, in sense, I am also open to other views.
edit: But I most certainly agree with Mrs. B and with your comments above, that it is Messiah alone who does the judging.

The Orange Mailman wrote:But on the other hand, the language is so specific that it's hard to take in a symbolic way. When the blood flows, it seems obvious to me that the juice from the grapes is symbolic of blood, but the blood isn't symbolic. It's literal blood. Since that it literal, then the distance that it flows must be literal as well. If so, we have an event whereby a great sum of people will be slaughtered dead all at once with their blood flowing out of their bodies in sort of a river.

I agree with you that the flow of blood from the "winepress" seems to be, most likely, literal.

What I don't know, though, is whether the Lord will be physically/visibly involved on the earth in some way, shape, or form prior to what is described in Revelation 19:11-21 (posted above). Because, as we know, when the Lord returns:

Revelation 1:7 (King James Version)

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:27 (King James Version)

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So, although it seems to me that the Lord will probably be involved (or maybe I should say be in control of) the events that transpire throughout the tribulation, I don't know if it will be in a visible, physical sense, as we know it, prior to the description in Revelation 19:11-21. (see above)

Because I also don't know whether the Lord's return will be comprised of a specific moment when He returns to the earth, or whether the Lord will be visible in the heavens throughout the tribulation or at certain times because I don't know chronologically when Revelation 6:12-17, for instance, might happen, or how it fits in relation to all of this, and whether or not it is in tune with Revelation 19:11-21 or not.

Revelation 6:12-17 (King James Version)

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And since there is so much that I don't know, it's really hard for me to separate what may be symbolic from what may not be.

That's way I am not convinced one way or another in terms of any particular sequence of events.

But I'm not saying we shouldn't try to figure it all out, or that there is anything wrong with trying to figure it all out, because, if nothing else, I think it keeps us occupied and focused on the Lord's return. I just wouldn't want to draw any firm conclusions about anything.

by **The Orange Mailman** on Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:49 pm

Hey Overcomer-

The New Heavens and New Earth could be thought of more as a renewed heavens and renewed earth. Or perhaps we could think of it as a new arrangement here on earth in coordination with the immediate heavens above, as in the atmosphere. I don't quite understand it, but the earth will produce fruit abundantly, the animals will be at peace with each other, but more importantly, human relationships will be drastically changed. People will act differently toward each other. The nations will coexist in peace with each other. But this will be due to Messiah being here personally. He will rule with a rod of iron. (You fill in references.)

So, what better way to enforce peace, than to have a visible reminder of the devastation in the previous age. One small portion of the earth will be completely devastated, unable to support plant life, and serve as a meeting place for a few animals which choose to meet in the wild. No human organization will exist there, since it states that no emissaries will be summoned on kingdom business.

This is similar to what the LORD did with Sodom and Gomorrah shortly after the flood. God had promised that no flood would cover the entire earth again. But what about an individual city so wicked and deserving of punishment? God's promise to not flood the earth didn't cover this situation, so sorry, no insurance. They were the cities so wicked that God HAD to destroy them. Not even ten righteous persons remained in the huge metropolis of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim.

The place where they were destroyed remained as an ongoing testimony to God's power and wrath. The Dead Sea is the place where they existed before they were destroyed, see Genesis 14:2-3. Apparently, before the destruction, the Jordan River flowed down and watered this lush plain, or valley, making it the prime place to live, Genesis 13:10. After the destruction, there was a huge crater for the Jordan River to fill up making a sea, later called the Salt Sea or the Dead Sea. Everyone knew what had happened to these wicked cities. Everyone knew that God had the power to do it again.

When Jonah preached to Nineveh, he cried, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown." That word is the same word used when the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is described in Genesis 19:25, "And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain..." So all a prophet had to do was mention the word and fear came upon the inhabitants of Nineveh. Why? They knew where the Dead Sea was. They knew God's power.

There will come a special healing to the Dead Sea when the Messianic Kingdom is established. In Ezekiel 47:8, the sea toward the east in the desert is the Dead Sea. There will come healing from the waters flowing from the temple. So this testimony to God's destructive power will pass away. Incidently, do you see the parallel between Ezekiel 47:12 and Revelation 22:1-2? There are some notable differences, but they obviously fit together somehow.

So to have a portion of land where God's wrath was poured out so fiercely that no civilization can exist there will serve God's purposes for a time just as the Dead Sea has. I believe this is what is described in Isaiah 66:24.

Owww. Suddenly I feel....
....derailed.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **revelation12eleven** on Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:31 pm

Yes, I do see the parallel between Ez. 47:12 and Rev. 22:1,2.

I was thinking that the Lord was leaving a wasteland for people to look at, as a reminder of His wrath. This wasteland will be Edom. It is interesting that in Psalm 83 we see Edom listed first among Israel's enemies that call for Israel's obliteration. Verse 3 - "They make shrewd plans against Thy people, and conspire together against Thy treasured one. They have said, "Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation, that the name of Israel be remembered no more." (Where have we heard that before?!) Instead, it is Edom that will be left as a wasteland for all to see...

Mrs. B said,
Habakkuk 2:14....For the Earth shall be filled with the Knowledge of the Glory of the Lord, as the Waters cover the Sea......

I love this....the Knowledge of the Glory of the Lord.....as waters cover the sea....we will Know Him and rule and reign with Him.....Glory...it will be worth it all when we see Jesus and will rule and reign with him..

I love that too!

I'll let you guys get back on track now... :grin:

by **rizen** on Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:09 am

We see that Christ comes initially, raptures the church (which is the harvest of the Son of Man). Immediately after this, the winepress is begun to be trampled by the LORD in His wrath.

If we line this up with Isaiah 34 (which I believe we should because of the mention of Edom and Bozrah) then we see there is still a great slaughter which He is about to accomplish which leads directly into the Messianic Kingdom (Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 65-66 in the other).

Hi OM,

Isaiah 34 directly connects with Isaiah 63. If we read Isaiah 34 carefully, I think we can determine what this trampling of the winepress is, and how it perfectly aligns itself with the New Testament prophecies found in Luke 17, Matthew 24 and Revelation 18.

For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. (Isa. 34:5)

The curse that Isaiah is referencing here is the same one found in Zech. 5.3-4. God says that He will bring this curse forth. It is the curse of a "woman", specifically that of Babylon (or New Testament "Mystery Babylon"). Luke 13:21 uses the figure of leaven to represent pride: "It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened" (Luke 13:21). The grain will be dry or "without pride" (Rev. 14:5) when Jesus comes, while the grapes have succumbed to the pride of the "woman" Mystery Babylon.

But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. (Isa. 34:11)

This allusion to the "line of confusion" that God will stretch out is another reference to Babylon. The word for Babylon (Hebrew "Babel") translates to "confusion by mixing". Isaiah 24:10 calls it the "city of confusion". This is always a reference to Babylon. When Jesus treads the winepress, He will render unto Babylon the very thing that they wrought in the earth--confusion.

Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel. (Proverbs 20:17)

Is fulfilled in Rev. 6:15:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains...(Rev. 6:15)

The kings and great men of the earth are hiding under rocks. Their mouth's are filled with gravel (confusion). They are bewildered and astonished.

They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. (Isa. 34:12)

After the wrath of God begins, the city of confusion will be forsaken.

And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate. (Isa. 34:13-15)

This connects to Isaiah 13:

And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged. (Isaiah 13:19-22)

The New Testament uses the imagery of a marriage to describe how the Day of the Lord will begin.

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:26-27)

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Before the DOTL (winepress), the merrymakers (the grapes) were marrying and being given in marriage. After the destruction of Babylon, we are told how the voice of the bridegroom and the bride will no more be found in it.

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. (Rev. 18:23)

The voice of the bridegroom and bride is a double reference. The reason the sound of the bride and bridegroom is found no more in Babylon is because the wrath of God has begun, and the true bridegroom (Jesus) has already come for his true bride (the church), and they are no more on the earth. One is a reflection of the other.

When the wrath of God begins, there will be 144,000 Jewish men literally standing on Mount Zion (Rev. 14:1). When the bride of Christ stands before the heavenly throne, the Jewish remnant (of which the 144,000 are only the firstfruits, so there will definitely be more Jewish people) will be standing on Mount Zion (a figure of God's earthly throne in Jerusalem). Again, one is a picture of the other.

by **rizen** on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:19 am

Overcomer writes:

It makes sense that His robe would be white at the opening of the sixth seal and when He descends at Armageddon the blood represents the pouring out of His wrath that has been going on since the 1st trumpet.

OM writes:

Now if I might take this a step further. We see that Christ comes initially, raptures the church (which is the harvest of the Son of Man). Immediately after this, the winepress is begun to be trampled by the LORD in His wrath. The trumpet judgements could easily be read here along with the bowl judgements. With these the blood begins to flow here on earth while the church is safely in the presence of God, standing on the crystal sea, or beside the crystal sea. Both the trumpets and the bowls are occurring simultaneously, perhaps the first of each, then the second of each, etc.

When the wrath of God begins in relation to the seals, trumps, and vials is a bit of tricky subject. I think we all agree that the wrath of begins after the sixth seal is opened. It's probably the best not to go into too much detail, since this would completely derail the thread (not that it ever stopped me before).

But I'll just throw this out there since I don't have any answer to this myself. But if you compare the wrath of God passages in Rev. 8:5, 11:19, and 16:18-21, there's a nagging question of how to arrange them. Perhaps you or someone else has an idea about how these verses can be chronologically arranged. At first glance it would appear that Rev. 16:18-21 is picking up where Rev. 8:5 left off. But then what do you do with 11:19, and why is it sequenced as “lightnings, voices, and thunderings” instead of “voices, thunderings, and lightnings” like 8:5 and 16:18? And why does Rev. 16:21 add "great hail" to its list when 8:5 leaves it off its list (and btw, "great hail" is included on the 11:19 list)? And why are each of these passages spread out over three different sections?

Here they are written out:

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. (Rev. 8:5)

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (Rev. 11:19)

And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. (Rev. 16:18)

Rev. 8:5 = v,th,l, and an earthquake

Rev. 11:19 = l,v,th,e, and great hail

Rev. 16:18 = v,th,l, and great earthquake

by **rizen** on Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:35 am

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Could it be that this verse -Rev 14:15- is the fulfillment of Dan 12:13?

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Hi RRiley,

I never considered this before but it makes sense. It's clear that Daniel will stand among the multitude in Rev.7:9. Very nice catch.

by **The Orange Mailman** on Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:16 pm

Perhaps you or someone else has an idea about how these verses can be chronologically arranged. At first glance it would appear that Rev. 16:18-21 is picking up where Rev. 8:5 left off. But then what do you do with 11:19, and why is it sequenced as “lightnings, voices, and thunderings” instead of “voices, thunderings, and lightnings” like 8:5 and 16:18? And why does Rev. 16:21 add "great hail" to its list when 8:5 leaves it off its list (and btw, "great hail" is included on the 11:19 list)? And why are each of these passages spread out over three different sections?

Hello Rizen-

I believe there is an act of finality to Revelation 11:15-19. It's sort of like "this is it". Your wrath came, all this stuff happened, and now it's time for the kingdoms of this world to belong to Messiah. The covenant is now seen by man.

I see the same sort of thing in Revelation 16:17-21. The nations are judged, Babylon is through, "It is done". Each one is the final portion in a series of seven, so the idea of finality should be there, but there's something more. It's like it's the final portion of the wrath.

I see a similar parallel between Revelation 8:1-5 and Revelation 14:17-20. This is the precipice. It's like you're just hanging over the edge of the cliff just about to fall off and you can see the ground beneath you. It's like you know it's coming and it ain't gonna be pretty. So that's why I see the parallels that I do.

With Revelation 6:12-17 being the harbinger for the Day of the LORD, then we have the sealing, then the rapture, this clearly demonstrates a PreWrath Rapture. It is the same for Revelation 14:14-16. The harvest occurs with the Son of Man reaping the earth, then comes the wrath. In both cases the rapture follows the great tribulation, but occurs before the wrath of God. That's why I'd like to harp on this a bit more because I see Revelation 14:14-16 being the rapture as a strengthening point for PreWrath.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **revelation12eleven** on Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:07 pm

Ok, so I was wondering about that...just who is in the great multitude? We know it is the church...There is only one resurrection of the righteous, right? At the end of the age. Daniel 12:2,13, John 6:40, 44, 1 Cor. 15:23. It makes sense that Daniel, Abraham, Noah, David - all will be standing before the throne too. Gives me goosebumps!

Harp away Orange...and I know you can handle the thread if it branches off into two discussions... :grin:

by **The Orange Mailman** on Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:49 am

Hey Rizen, here is a reply to your other post.

Isaiah 34 directly connects with Isaiah 63. If we read Isaiah 34 carefully, I think we can determine what this trampling of the winepress is, and how it perfectly aligns itself with the New Testament prophecies found in Luke 17, Matthew 24 and Revelation 18.

I believe (and Watching too I think) that Isaiah 34 and 63 connect directly, but perhaps they are not exact parallels. For now anyway, I see Isaiah 34 as the LORD Jesus intending to descend upon Edom and accomplish all these things. "The LORD is enraged against all nations". "The host of heaven shall rot away". "My sword... descends upon Edom". It seems like the day of vengeance and the year of repayment for Zion is at hand and about to break forth. This is the same event as described in Isaiah 63, but from a different point of view. It seems like this passage is viewing the events as having already been accomplished. The LORD Jesus is coming from Edom with His garments already stained. Here, "the day of vengeance was in my heart" referring to what has just occurred. "The year of redemption had come". It's like the LORD is looking back on what just transpired. So they both described the same event but from different points of view. Prophecy can be like that sometimes, declaring the end from the beginning (63), or looking into the future and seeing what will shortly take place (34).

They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. (Isa. 34:12)

After the wrath of God begins, the city of confusion will be forsaken.

I have a slightly different view on this. I see Isaiah 34:12 as referring to the state of this territory AFTER the wrath is completely poured out and the land is a burning waste. There will be no organizational structure for this to be included in the Messianic Kingdom which shall be set up directly after the wrath. So while other nations will respond to the King's invitation, this territory will have no envoys to send to Jerusalem. I believe this state will persist throughout the 1000 year reign.

Have fun and stay busy -Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

P.S. I agree with everything else (pretty much).

by **The Orange Mailman** on Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:08 am

Ok, so I was wondering about that...just who is in the great multitude? We know it is the church...There is only one resurrection of the righteous, right? At the end of the age. Daniel 12:2,13, John 6:40, 44, 1 Cor. 15:23. It makes sense that Daniel, Abraham, Noah, David - all will be standing before the throne too.

Overcomer, surely you have some thoughts about this. But hey, it's Christmas.

I think some people (post-tribbers) get hung up on the phrase "the end of the age" or even better "the last day". It is important to understand how the terms are used. We see the Day of the LORD as being sort of "the time period of the LORD's wrath". The end of the age is actually the transition from this age into the next. The book of Revelation as a whole describes the end of the age. Of course it describes the beginning of the next age as well. (I think you and I are on the same page re: the New Jerusalem, right?) So to pinpoint the exact moment of the end of this age and the beginning of the next age is really to insert modern technology into ancient prophecies. In those days, when a new king would arise, celebrations would take place for months, making the beginning of new reign to be something that occurred not in a moment of time, but a general time period ushering in a greater time period.

I've pointed this out in the past. But look at Noah. He boarded the ark. Then God's wrath was poured out over a period of months. Then after the wrath had subsided, he got off the ark and inherited the new heaven and new earth. Where was the exact moment in time when the end of the age occurred? I believe it was when Noah boarded the ark. That was the end of the world as they knew it. So I see the rapture as the end of the age, but the beginning of the new age (when we inherit the new heaven and new earth) will be when we stand here on the earth with Jesus after He has put down the rebellion at Armageddon. At that time is when I believe the events of Luke 19:15-27, Romans 14:10-12 (with Isaiah 45:22-25), but I think Matthew 16:27 really drives it home.

But you asked a question. I think you already know the answer. It's all the righteous from Abel on down to Zechariah, and then the entire NT church as well. There may be different places for us in the Kingdom, but we'll all be in the same kingdom. Hebrews 11:39-40 in describing the OT saints makes the point that they will not be made perfect without us (NT saints). Then the thought continues into Hebrews 12 showing that they are like a great cloud of witnesses encompassing us as we now run our race. This doesn't show discontinuity, but direct continuity.

I think Revelation 7:9-17 and 15:2-4 describe the same multitude with different details. The mention of the Song of Moses here is quite significant.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **Finaldash** on Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:20 pm

Where is Nike? I thought for sure she would be in this discussion. :grin:

by **nike** on Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:39 am

Hi, Finaldash!

I only like to jump in when I can disagree and argue with Orange, and so far he's doing a pretty good job, so...

Just kidding! Sorry I've been absent on this one - I haven't had the time to roll up my sleeves and figure out what's going on here...I'll just add that God is good, He is absolutely sovereign over all things and He has been more gracious and kind to me in all things than I ever deserved (good thing I don't get what I deserve)! With that being said, it's nice to be missed, but I am sure you all are handling this just fine without me!

Is Orange behaving or is he picking fights again?

nike

by **revelation12eleven** on Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:58 am

Just so you know, Orange, my Bible is all marked up with OM's. When you start comparing scripture with scripture, I make notes in my Bible and then add an OM next to it...meaning...OM's view/learned from OM. I would definitely think Moses would be present to sing his song, don't you? I think you've touched on this before but the Sheep and Goat judgment, where do you see that in regards to the other scriptures you laid out? (Oops...now we might have three discussions going now...)

My view is the end of the age is at the rapture...I think Mt. 24 makes that pretty clear. Like Robert VanKampen, I think it is synonymous with the beginning of the DOTL. EofA, Fullness of Gentiles, Beg. of DOTL occur at same time...my view and I think yours too, OM. It makes sense that the next age wouldn't necessarily be the period during the DOTL, but during the millennial kingdom. I'm still not 100% convinced the NH and NE occurs at the beginning of the millennial kingdom but you do make a good case for it. I am there with the NJ being on the earth during the millennium.

Hiya Nike! Salvation is enough, something we don't deserve, but He does give us so much more doesn't He?

One last comment...Eph. 2:7 speaks of the ages to come. What is in store for us?! There's the millennial kingdom but then there are more ages after that? What could they be? What will they look like? Their purpose is to show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. No doubt we will continue to experience tremendous blessing, something we don't deserve, and His glory will be put on display!

Merry Christmas Eve, everyone!

by **rizen** on Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:02 pm

I've pointed this out in the past. But look at Noah. He boarded the ark. Then God's wrath was poured out over a period of months. Then after the wrath had subsided, he got off the ark and inherited the new heaven and new earth. Where was the exact moment in time when the end of the age occurred? I believe it was when Noah boarded the ark.

Hi Orange,

This is an excellent point. So when we read about the flood in Matthew 24:39 and Luke 17:27, isn't this really an allusion to the great winepress of the wrath of God in Rev. 14:19?

Also, when Matt. 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-37 reference how one will be taken while the other will be left behind, can't we just agree that this is talking about the resurrection/rapture before the wrath of God begins? If this is true, then what can we say about the 10 virgins? If five are taken (Matt. 25:10), then five must be left behind, right? Again, this is reference to the resurrection/rapture at the end of the age, isn't it? Same thing with the two thieves on the cross. One was taken (Luke 23:43), the other was left behind. And we can't forget about the baker and butler in Genesis 40. Both of them had a dream the same night. Joseph interpreted the dream for them. The butler was accepted after Pharaoh lifted his head, while the baker was condemned, hung on a tree and the birds consumed his flesh. One was promoted while the other was condemned on the same day.

And what about the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13? It is interesting how Jesus explains the tares will be burned (Matt. 13:30). If we read this text in light of Rev. 14:17-19, which occurs after the dried grain reaping, then we discover how it is the angel with power over fire that calls for the other angel with the sickle to gather the vine of the earth. This seems to suggest that God's wrath will begin with a fire judgment--the same method of judgment slated for the tares in Matthew 13. But as with the flood of Noah, God's wrath will be poured out over the course of months, not all at once.

I think Revelation 7:9-17 and 15:2-4 describe the same multitude with different details. The mention of the Song of Moses here is quite significant.

Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. (Exodus 15:1)

In the same way that Moses and the children of Israel sung this song after Pharaoh and his horsemen were engulfed by the "floods" (Exo. 15:8) of the Red Sea after Moses and the children of Israel (along with the bones of Joseph [Exo. 13:19]) had passed over to the other side, the martyrs who refused the mark of the beast in Rev. 15 will sing this song when they stand before the throne of God, when the flood of God's wrath begins to be poured out on the earth. When the wrath of God begins, the dead in Christ who rise first will rejoice.

Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. (Deut. 32:43)