"He as God sitteth in the temple of God"

[lambslave]

ampersand, watching an whoever, Have you ever considered the fact that Jesus was referring to more than one passage in Daniel when He speaks about what Daniel "spoke of". I believe He was probably referring to Daniel chapters 7through 12 which thoroughly develop an early picture of the end-times. It is in those chapters that you encounter the unusual turn to odd time keeping. lambslave

[ampersand]

Hi lambslave, I sent you a PM.
&

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I'm just keeping in mind that word order is not the primary determinant of function in Greek grammar. Form is.

(Perhaps you could tell us if that is the case in Modern Greek as well?)

It's still that way in the Greek. You can put the noun or pronoun after the verb and pretty much rearrange the sentence every which way and it still makes sense.

edit: I just want to add, that once again, it's not so much the word order. Because, for example, if I wanted to literally say, "so as to seat himself," in the modern Greek, but using "kathisai" as an infinitive (which is no longer done, that I am aware of), then I would say, "wste kathisai tov eautov tou" as opposed to, "wste autov kathisai" (so as him to sit). So the words would have to be changed to say it that way, not just the word order (at least that's my understanding in terms of the Modern Greek).

But as you said, the effect is still the same, and that is that the "man of sin" would be taking the liberty to sit somewhere that he is not supposed to sit.

Just wanted to clarify.

... Thanks for the resources. They're great. I'll definitely have to bookmark them. ...

You are very welcome. I thought you might like them. Just be careful with the katabiblon site. It's a "publically editable dictionary," so who knows...you may find somebody defining πίστις as "pistachios" { }. Its usefulness is in locating many, if not all, inflections of any word in the NT. Unparalleled as far as free tools go...

&

I actually couldn't figure out how to get that one to work.

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

Watching, I must say, my research into the reading of Daniel 9:27b causes me to favor those translations which see a different one who comes and makes desolate such as the NAS and others. It took a while, but I just don't buy the KJV of verse 27 any more. it does not agree with the Aramic (and believe me I am very weak in Aramaic). lambslave

What exactly is your take on Daniel 9:27?

I found this translation of the Hebrew on the internet: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan9.pdf

And I don't see why there would have to be a different one who comes and makes desolate.

[lambslave]

Watching, I'm not ignoring you. I'm working on a reply. And I'm told by the doctor to remain in bed---impossible!!

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

Please take your time!

I'm not in any particular hurry for a reply. Your health is much more important!

So please take care of yourself,

and God

[watching]

Hi ampersand and lambslave,

I haven't heard from either of you in a while, so I hope you are both fine.

I was wondering if either of you wanted to do a study on the Septuagint text for Daniel 9:24-27, since ampersand brought it up in another thread.

From my understanding, both the Septuagint and the Masoretic text are considered to be reliable translations of the original Hebrew text which apparently no longer exists. Yet what is interesting to me is that, although both are a translation of inspired text, the wording seems to be considerably different between the two text. However, the understanding that I am getting, personally, from either text, is basically the same.

So is anyone up to doing a study comparing the Septuagint text with the Masoretic text for Daniel 9:24-27?

[ampersand]

Hi Watching,

I am well, thanks for your concern!

I've been wanting to continue our study in Thessalonians...we've only dissected one verse in detail so far! I ALSO am very interested in Daniel 9, especially after considering your and lambslave's comments. {BTW, I saw your post about the Hebrew text in the sacrifice thread. I think you did a pretty good job - the info you dug up looks compelling}.

If you want to start a new thread, I'll definitely be reading it often, but I don't know how much I'll be able to contribute...I know I won't have time to post as frequently as I have in this thread. There's also the matter of having to start learning Hebrew, and I'm still working on Greek right now


If you get the ball rolling, I'll contribute as much as I can, but I can't make any promises, as I am trying to juggle way too much right now .


in Christ,
&

ps. I hope that someday we can also continue where we left off in Thessalonians .

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I'm glad your exam went smoothly.

There's also the matter of having to start learning Hebrew, and I'm still working on Greek right now

I wasn't really planning to try and learn Hebrew (that is beyond me). I was basically just going to use the word for word translation that was done by Scripture4all. I was really more interested in translating the Septuagint text for Daniel 9:24-27, which I have already done for my own personal purposes.

If you want to start a new thread, I'll definitely be reading it often, but I don't know how much I'll be able to contribute...I know I won't have time to post as frequently as I have in this thread

I guess there's no point if I'm not going to have anyone to interact with.


p.s. Sorry for attempting to derail your thread.

[Pretzelogical]

I guess there's no point if I'm not going to have anyone to interact with.

I am no &, but would love to learn from you too.

As far as Lambslave/Stephen goes, you can read his book and at his website:
http://expressright.com/weeks.aspx

A third approach
Another approach, which I call the Reconciliation view, solves the problems inherent in the other two positions. Here we establish that the first half of the seventieth week is historical and fulfilled in the 3 1/2 year public ministry of the Messiah from His baptism to the crucifixion. The second half of the seventieth week is yet future and unfulfilled. This last 3 1/2 years is the time of the great tribulation.

Stephen then goes into detail about each verse, in Daniel 9: 24-27. Then he concludes:

When Jesus was crucified, 3 1/2 years of the seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy were past. The prophetic clock was at the middle of the seventieth week. Jesus told His disciples to look for the abomination of desolation as the sign of His coming because that is all that remained of Daniel’s prophecy.

We are therefore not surprised to find repeated reference in the book of Revelation to a future 3 1/2 year period of time that follows a desolation perpetrated by the end-time ruler.

I highly recommend Stephen's book to everyone who wants to worship in truth the Jesus revealed to John. (The Revelataion of Jesus Christ as given to John) Chapter One begins with the passage in Thess. He pasted some of it on a page at his site:
http://expressright.com/default.aspx

"...So confused were they that some in that church had apparently become convinced that the day of the Lord had already come. To set them straight, Paul wrote specifically about what would signal the coming of the Lord Jesus. To this gentile congregation he effectively converted "the abomination of desolation...standing in the holy place," a phrase meaningful to Jews, to words that gentiles could understand.

The apostle presented a simple argument. The Lord Jesus will come after, and in response to, the appearance of a particular man who rises to power when the church is experiencing apostasy. He will be recognized by certain things that he does, including lawlessness (2:3, 8) and destruction (2:3), taking God's place (2:4) and the display of power, signs, and false wonders (2:9).

Jesus had said that the abomination of desolation would stand in the holy place (Matt. 24:15). Paul had written that the son of destruction would take the place of God (2 Thess. 2:4). Daniel wrote (11:36) that "the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god." The Thessalonians would understand that "the abomination of desolation" is a phrase that characterizes and describes "the man of lawlessness, son of destruction," whose actions and words would amount to standing "in the holy place," God's place.

Spoken of by Daniel

The Lord Jesus had told His disciples that "the abomination of desolation" was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matt. 24:15). Daniel discussed the end-time, and the end-time ruler specifically from chapters 7 through 12. He described the end-time ruler as: (1) the "little horn;" (2) "one who makes desolate;" and (3) "abomination of desolation." The picture of the end-time ruler that emerges from these contexts is of one who takes the place of God, destroys saints and causes great desolation, and is destroyed by the returning Lord.

Paul's description is essentially the same as Daniel's. He describes the man of lawlessness as the "son of destruction," just as Daniel described one who would destroy and cause desolation. Paul says that the lawless one "exalts himself above every so-called god," nearly a quotation of "he will exalt and magnify himself above every god" (Dan. 11:36), Daniel's description of the end-time king "set-up" as the "abomination of desolation." Paul also revealed, as did Daniel, that the man of lawlessness would be destroyed by the coming Lord (2 Thess. 2:8).

Please continue your prayers for Stephen and Sonja.

[watching]

Hi Pretzological,

First of all, my prayers go out to Stephen and Sonja.

watching wrote:
I guess there's no point if I'm not going to have anyone to interact with.

Pretzelogical wrote:
I am no &, but would love to learn from you too.

I would love to post my translation of the Septuagint text for Daniel 9:24-27 for anyone who is interested. If nothing else, I think it's pretty revealing as to what was understood concerning the above verses when these texts were written. Bear in mind that these texts were written long before the time of Christ, from what I understand.

I'm wondering, however, if the moderators could split this thread and begin an appropriately titled new thread in the debate section on this topic, since I don't think Ampersand appreciates having his thread derailed.

Btw, it was actually pretty easy to translate the text using the following website that Ampersand recommended for translating Greek earlier in this thread:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/

I actually relied pretty heavily on this website for most of my translations. So, basically, anyone can check behind my work to see if it's correct (provided the information on the website is correct), or come up with their own translation.

Also, I translated both versions of the Septuagint. I believe one is called the Old Greek version, and the other is the Theodotion version.

In any case, you can find both versions on this website:

http://ftp.fortunaty.net/com/sacred-texts/bib/poly/dan009.htm


Anyway, here are my translations. (The word for word translation is in the black. My translation, without the Greek, is in the blue. Keep in mind, however, that even still, my translation is, basically, still a word for word translation. I did not want to take the liberty to add commas or punctuation marks to help it make more sense, because I didn't want to take the risk of misinterpreting anything. I did however change the word order a little bit, in some cases, to help it make more sense in English. Also, you may notice that there are a lot of question marks.):

24 ἑβδομήκοντα (seventy) ἑβδομάδες (weeks) ἐκρίθησαν (have been judged) ἐπὶ (upon) τὸν (the) λαόν (people) σου (your) καὶ (and) ἐπὶ (upon) τὴν (the) πόλιν (city) Σιων (Zion) συντελεσθῆναι (to be completed) τὴν (the) ἁμαρτίαν (sin) καὶ (and) τὰς (the) ἀδικίας (injustice) σπανίσαι (????) καὶ (and) ἀπαλεῖψαι (????) τὰς (the) ἀδικίας (injustice) καὶ (and) διανοηθῆναι (???? - to be sealed) τὸ (the) ὅραμα (vision) καὶ (and) δοθῆναι (to be given) δικαιοσύνην (righteousness) αἰώνιον (everlasting) καὶ (and) συντελεσθῆναι (to be completed) τὸ (the) ὅραμα (vision) καὶ (and) εὐφρᾶναι (to be celebrated) ἅγιον (holy) ἁγίων (holy)

Seventy weeks have been judged upon thy people and upon the city Zion to be completed sin and injustice and (something?) and (to be something?) the injustice and (to be sealed?) the vision and to be given everlasting righteousness and to be completed the vision and to be celebrated the most holy.

25 καὶ (and) γνώσῃ (know) καὶ (and) διανοηθήσῃ (????) καὶ (and) εὐφρανθήσῃ (you will be celebrated/be merry) καὶ (and) εὑρήσεις (you will find) προστάγματα (????) ἀποκριθῆναι (to be answered) καὶ (and) οἰκοδομήσεις (you will build) Ιερουσαλημ (Jerusalem) πόλιν (city) κυρίῳ (of the Lord)

And know and (understand?) and you will be merry and you will find (something?) to be answered to build Jerusalem the city of the Lord.

26 καὶ (and) μετὰ (after) ἑπτὰ (seven) καὶ (and) ἑβδομήκοντα (seventy) καὶ (and) ἑξήκοντα (sixty) δύο (two) ἀποσταθήσεται (will be disengaged) χρῖσμα (anointing) καὶ (and) οὐκ (not) ἔσται (be) καὶ (and) βασιλεία (kingdom) ἐθνῶν (nations) φθερεῖ (he will corrupt/destroy) τὴν (the) πόλιν (city) καὶ (and) τὸ (the) ἅγιον (holy) μετὰ (after correction: μετὰ can also mean with *see Blue Letter Bible definition below) τοῦ (the) χριστοῦ (anointing correction: anointed) καὶ (and) ἥξει (will come) ἡ (the) συντέλεια (completion) αὐτοῦ (of him) μετ᾽ (with) ὀργῆς (anger) καὶ (and) ἕως (until) καιροῦ (time) συντελείας (of completion) ἀπὸ (from/of) πολέμου (war) πολεμηθήσεται (war will be waged)http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3326&t=KJV

And after seven and seventy and sixty two anointing will be disengaged and there will not be
an international kingdom he will destroy the city and the holy after correction: μετά can also mean with the anointing correction: anointed and will come the end of him with anger and until time of the consummation from war war will be waged

In other words this verse could read as follows:

And after seven and seventy and sixty two anointing will be disengaged and there will not be an international kingdom he will destroy the city and the holy with the anointed and will come the end of him with anger and until time of consummation from war war will be waged

27 καὶ (and) δυναστεύσει (? he will strengthen/have authority over) ἡ (the) διαθήκη (covenant) εἰς (with) πολλούς (many) καὶ (and) πάλιν (again) ἐπιστρέψει (will return) καὶ (and) ἀνοικοδομηθήσεται (? -something regarding to build/οικοδομηθήσεται means he/she/it will be builded) εἰς (with) πλάτος (width) καὶ (and) μῆκος (length) καὶ (and) κατὰ (according to/downwards/into/against/toward/etc.) συντέλειαν (the completion/end) καιρῶν (time) καὶ (and) μετὰ (after) ἑπτὰ (seven) καὶ (and) ἑβδομήκοντα (seventy) καιροὺς (times) καὶ (and) ἑξήκοντα (sixty) δύο (two) ἔτη (years) ἕως (until) καιροῦ (time) συντελείας (of completion) πολέμου (war) καὶ (and) ἀφαιρεθήσεται (will be deprived/taken away) ἡ (the) ἐρήμωσις (desolation) ἐν (in) τῷ (the) κατισχῦσαι (to be prevailed per Greek/English dictionary) τὴν (the) διαθήκην (covenant) ἐπὶ (upon) πολλὰς (many) ἑβδομάδας (weeks) καὶ (and) ἐν (in) τῷ (the) τέλει (end) τῆς (of the) ἑβδομάδος (week) ἀρθήσεται (will be taken away) ἡ (the) θυσία (sacrifice) καὶ (and) ἡ (the) σπονδή (? – present) καὶ (and) ἐπὶ (upon) τὸ (the) ἱερὸν (holy) βδέλυγμα (abomination) τῶν (of) ἐρημώσεων (desolation) ἔσται (to be) ἕως (until) συντελείας (the completion) καὶ (and) συντέλεια (the completion/end) δοθήσεται (to be given) ἐπὶ (upon) τὴν (the) ἐρήμωσιν (desolate)

And he will (strengthen?) the covenant with many and will return again and (? something regarding to build) with width and length and (toward?/according to?) the time of the consummation and after seven and seventy times and sixty two years until time of consummation war and will be taken away the desolation in the prevailing of the covenant upon many weeks and in the end of the week will be taken away the sacrifice and the (present?) and upon the holy abomination of desolation to be until the consummation and the consummation is given upon the desolate

9:25 καὶ γνώσῃ καὶ συνήσεις ἀπὸ ἐξόδου λόγου τοῦ ἀποκριθῆναι καὶ τοῦ οἰκοδομῆσαι Ιερουσαλημ ἕως χριστοῦ ἡγουμένου ἑβδομάδες ἑπτὰ καὶ ἑβδομάδες ἑξήκοντα δύο καὶ ἐπιστρέψει καὶ οἰκοδομηθήσεται πλατεῖα καὶ τεῖχος καὶ ἐκκενωθήσονται οἱ καιροί
9:26 καὶ μετὰ τὰς ἑβδομάδας τὰς ἑξήκοντα δύο ἐξολεθρευθήσεται χρῖσμα καὶ κρίμα οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν αὐτῷ καὶ τὴν πόλιν καὶ τὸ ἅγιον διαφθερεῖ σὺν τῷ ἡγουμένῳ τῷ ἐρχομένῳ καὶ ἐκκοπήσονται ἐν κατακλυσμῷ καὶ ἕως τέλους πολέμου συντετμημένου τάξει ἀφανισμοῖς
9:27 καὶ δυναμώσει διαθήκην πολλοῖς ἑβδομὰς μία καὶ ἐν τῷ ἡμίσει τῆς ἑβδομάδος ἀρθήσεταί μου θυσία καὶ σπονδή καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ ἱερὸν βδέλυγμα τῶν ἐρημώσεων καὶ ἕως συντελείας καιροῦ συντέλεια δοθήσεται ἐπὶ τὴν ἐρήμωσιν


9:25 καὶ (and) γνώσῃ (know) καὶ (and) υνήσεις (understand) ἀπὸ (from) ἐξόδου (exodus – going out) λόγου (word) τοῦ (of the) ἀποκριθῆναι (to be answered) καὶ (and) τοῦ (of the) οἰκοδομῆσαι (to be built) Ιερουσαλημ (Jerusalem) ἕως ( until) χριστοῦ (anointed /Christ) ἡγουμένου (leader) ἑβδομάδες (weeks) ἑπτὰ (seven) καὶ (and) ἑβδομάδες (weeks) ἑξήκοντα (sixty) δύο (two) καὶ (and) ἐπιστρέψει (he will turn around/ return) καὶ (and) οἰκοδομηθήσεται (will be built) πλατεῖα (wide road) καὶ (and) τεῖχος (wall) καὶ (and) ἐκκενωθήσονται (will be troublous?) οἱ (the) καιροί (times)

And know and understand from the going out of the commandment to be built Jerusalem until the anointed leader weeks seven and weeks sixty two and he will return and will be built wide road and wall and (troublous?) will be the times.

9:26 καὶ (and) μετὰ (after) τὰς (the) ἑβδομάδας (weeks) τὰς (the) ἑξήκοντα (sixty) δύο(two) ἐξολεθρευθήσεται (will be cut off) χρῖσμα (anointing) καὶ (and) κρίμα (judgement) οὐκ (not) ἔστιν (is) ἐν (in) αὐτῷ (him) καὶ (and) τὴν (the) πόλιν (city) καὶ (and) τὸ (the) ἅγιον (holy) διαφθερεῖ (he will ruin) σὺν (along with) τῷ (the) ἡγουμένῳ (the leader) τῷ (the) ἐρχομένῳ (coming ) καὶ (and) ἐκκοπήσονται (they will be cut) ἐν (with) κατακλυσμῷ (a flood) καὶ (and) ἕως (until) τέλους (end) πολέμου (war) συντετμημένου (having been circumsbribed) τάξει (he will direct/order) ἀφανισμοῖς (destruction)

And after sixty two weeks anointing will be cut off and judgment is not in him and the city and the holy he will ruin along with the leader the coming and they will be cut with a flood and until the end war having been circumscribed he will order destruction.

9:27 καὶ (and) δυναμώσει (he will confirm) διαθήκην (covenant) πολλοῖς (with many) ἑβδομὰς (week) μία (one) καὶ (and) ἐν (in) τῷ (the) ἡμίσει (middle) τῆς (of the) ἑβδομάδος (week) ἀρθήσεταί (will be taken away) μου (my) θυσία (sacrifice) καὶ (and) σπονδή (present?) καὶ (and) ἐπὶ (upon) τὸ (the) ἱερὸν (holy) βδέλυγμα (abomination) τῶν (of the) ἐρημώσεων (desolation) καὶ (and) ἕως (until) συντελείας (completion/consummation/end) καιροῦ (time) συντέλεια (completion/consummation/end) δοθήσεται (will be given) ἐπὶ (upon) τὴν (the) ἐρήμωσιν (desolate)

And he will strengthen covenant with many one week and in the middle of the week will be taken away my sacrifice and (present?) and upon the holy abomination of desolation and until the time of the consummation the consummation will be given upon the desolate.

edited for correction

[watching]

Hi Pretzelogical,

I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the above post yet, but I just wanted to let you know that I have made a couple of corrections to it.

Also, I would like to discuss what my understanding of the text is, if you are interested, but I would also like to get the opinion of others, as well.

So, please let me know what you think.

[Pretzelogical]

WOW Watching! You have really put some work into this! How can I thank you for pouring your heart into this?!

The statement that jumped out at me the most was one I had never seen translated anywhere before:

there will not be a national kingdom

Why would that part have been omitted/mistranslated? Or have I missed it all these years?

[Pretzelogical]

And who is "he" and are they the same "he"?

I am convinced the passage speaks of Jesus as the Messiah coming as a Savior. In addition, I am thinking the destroyer of Daniel chapter nine is also Jesus.

God warned of the Isreaelites being "utterly destroyed", "scattered among the nations" and "left few in number" and He did destroy them, scatter them and leave them few in number shortly after they rejected their Messiah. But God in His compassionate mercy offered a way of escape if they would "seek Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul". Next God spoke of "when you are in tribulation...in the latter days...He...will remember the covenant".

Deuteronomy 4
26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

In Daniel 9, Daniel reads in Jeremiah that the seventy years of exile are almost up and Daniel knows his people haven't repented. Daniel confesses the sins of his nation against the covenant. Daniel's prayer is out of concern that his people have broken God's covenant with them. The text defines the covenant exactly! Then the angel comes to Daniel and explains how and when God will strengthen the covenant through the Messiah the Prince who will be cut off half way through the seven by His own people. There is no mention of an anti-Christ in the whole passage. The passage speaks of the unfaithful Israelites, and their faithful merciful God who will come at the exact timing the angel said. It is an amazingly accurate prophecy and I am sick of people giving Satan the stage instead of our loving Jesus! Anti-Christ isn't the only one who destroys. "...Just like in the days of Noah..."

Deuteronomy 2:15
Moreover the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from within the camp until they all perished.

Did the Israelites forsake Jesus?
Deuteronomy 28:20
The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me.

Deuteronomy 28:48
therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in the lack of all things; and He will put an iron yoke on your neck until He has destroyed you.

The Passover Lamb's blood was a sign to the LORD to "not allow the destroyer to come in".
Exodus 12:23
For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you.

Jesus is the destroyer in this prophecy:
Numbers 24:19
"One from Jacob shall have dominion,
And will destroy the remnant from the city."
That sure sounds like Daniel Chapter 9 to me!

Three times in Deut 9 we are told that God was ready to destroy the Israelites. It says it again in the next chapter and throughout the scriptures. And seven times in Deuternomy 28 God says He will destroy the Israelites who forsake Him!

I could go on and on throughout the scriptures, but just search the word "destroy" and see for yourself: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?se ... spanend=73

This fits the context of the passage, and God's message throughout the scriptures: those who reject God (the One, the Annointed, the Messiah, the Prince, the Son, Jesus) are destroyed by God.

If I have said anything that is unscriptural, please tell me!
(I have disagreed with the standard teachings about the anti-Christ, DUH. I have heard it for forty years and I am done with it. Plenty of threads here teach it already along with the majority of authors, videos, etc. The majority got it wrong the first time Jesus came. I will no longer discuss the anti-Christ in Daniel 9 because he is not there. The anti-Christ is described elsewhere in scripture.)

The translation work you have done, Watching, confirms the covenant in my heart and soul that seeks Him in truth and love. Thanks again! LORD, PLEASE do not let us be deceived!

[Pretzelogical]

he will order destruction.

Is the word "order" as in "arrange it" or "command it"?
Prayerfully,
Lisa

[Pretzelogical]

These sound like Jesus on the cross:
Job 6:9
Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!

Job 9:22
This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.

Job 10:8
Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

Job 19:10
He hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone: and mine hope hath he removed like a tree.

In several Psalms we read of being "encompassed" . Just as David was, so was Christ; "in the Name of the LORD I will destroy them"

Isaiah 10:27
And it shall come to pass in that day, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.

Isaiah 48: 19 Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.
20... The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

Isaiah 65:8
Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

This also speaks of the work of the cross - not an anti-Christ:
Lamentations 2
6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.
7 The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast.
8 The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.

Hosea 4:6 & 9
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children...O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

[watching]

WOW Watching! You have really put some work into this! How can I thank you for pouring your heart into this?!

The statement that jumped out at me the most was one I had never seen translated anywhere before:

there will not be a national kingdom

Why would that part have been omitted/mistranslated? Or have I missed it all these years?

Hi Pretzological,

I'm glad you brought this up, because I just realized that I had made a mistake:

ἐθνῶν is actually nations (plural), I don't know why I had typed in nation (singular) in the word for word translation.

As a result, when I was coming up with my translation in English, I didn't think kingdom nation made much sense, so I translated it as national kingdom. But now I realize that it should have been kingdom of nations.

I'm so glad that you noticed that, and I'm sorry for my mistake. But this is precisely why I wanted other people to comment on my translations, so that things like this could be cleared up.

So, basically, I probably should have translated the text as follows:

And after seven and seventy and sixty two anointing will be disengaged and there will not be a kingdom of nations he will destroy the city and the holy with the anointed and will come the end of him with anger and until time of consummation from war war will be waged

edit: Or you could say, "international kingdom."

Even still, nevertheless, I agree with you that this is amazingly accurate in terms of prophecy, if you ask me!

I have not had a chance to look into some of your other observations yet, and I will probably be out most of the day, but I just wanted to at least respond to this issue, as soon as I noticed my mistake. (There may very well be other mistakes, since I'm not a very meticulous person.)

Anyway, thanks for your comments, and I look forward to exploring the text further with your help, hopefully.

[watching]

And who is "he" and are they the same "he"?

I am convinced the passage speaks of Jesus as the Messiah coming as a Savior. In addition, I am thinking the destroyer of Daniel chapter nine is also Jesus.

Hi Pretzelogical,

That is a good question.

I have to say, I am coming to the same conclusion as you are. Although, I cannot emphatically say that I know for certain who the destroyer is, since there is no one directly named in connection to the action, from what I can tell. However, in the case of the Old Greek version, since no one else is even mentioned in the passage in verse 26, other than the anointed, I really don't see who else the word φθερεῖ could possibly be referring to. Here is how verse 26 reads in the Old Greek version of the Septuagint, once again:

26 καὶ and μετὰ after ἑπτὰ seven καὶ and ἑβδομήκοντα seventy καὶ and ἑξήκοντα sixty δύο two ἀποσταθήσεται will be disengaged χρῖσμα anointing καὶ and οὐκ not ἔσται be καὶ and βασιλεία kingdom ἐθνῶν nations φθερεῖ he will corrupt/destroy τὴν the πόλιν city καὶ and τὸ the ἅγιον holy μετὰ with τοῦ the χριστοῦ anointed καὶ and ἥξει will come ἡ the συντέλεια completion/consummation αὐτοῦ of him μετ᾽ with ὀργῆς anger καὶ and ἕως until καιροῦ time συντελείας of completion ἀπὸ from πολέμου war πολεμηθήσεται war will be waged

Now, here is just the English:

And after seven and seventy and sixty two anointing will be disengaged and [there will] not be an international kingdom [he] will destroy the city and the holy with the anointed and will come the consummation of him with anger and until time of [the] consummation from war war will be waged

What is interesting to me, though is that whoever the word φθερεῖ might be referring to, he is described as destroying the city and the holy with the anointed.

However, in the Theodotion version of the Septuagint, whoever the word διαφθερεῖ might be referring to, he is described as destroying the city and the holy with the leader who is coming. And the only coming leader who has been previously introduced in the text is the anointed.

Here is how verses 25 and 26 read in the Theodotion version of the Septuagint, once again:

9:25 καὶ and γνώσῃ know καὶ and υνήσεις understand ἀπὸ from ἐξόδου exodus/going out λόγου word τοῦ of the ἀποκριθῆναι to be answered καὶ and τοῦ of the οἰκοδομῆσαι to be built Ιερουσαλημ Jerusalem ἕως until χριστοῦ anointed/Christ ἡγουμένου leader ἑβδομάδες weeks ἑπτὰ seven καὶ and ἑβδομάδες weeks ἑξήκοντα sixty δύο two καὶ and ἐπιστρέψει he will turn around/return καὶ and οἰκοδομηθήσεται will be built πλατεῖα wide road καὶ and τεῖχος wall καὶ and ἐκκενωθήσονται ???will be troublous??? οἱ the καιροί times


9:26 καὶ and μετὰ after τὰς the ἑβδομάδας weeks τὰς the ἑξήκοντα sixty δύο two ξολεθρευθήσεται will be cut off χρῖσμα anointing καὶ and κρίμα judgment οὐκ not ἔστιν is ἐν in αὐτῷ him καὶ and τὴν the πόλιν city καὶ and τὸ the ἅγιον holy διαφθερεῖ he will ruin σὺν with τῷ the ἡγουμένῳ leader τῷ the ἐρχομένῳ coming καὶ and ἐκκοπήσονται they will be cut ἐν with κατακλυσμῷ a flood καὶ and ἕως until τέλους end πολέμου war συντετμημένου having been circumscribed τάξει he will direct/order ἀφανισμοῖς destruction

Now here is just the English:

And know and understand from the going out of the commandment to be built Jerusalem until the anointed leader weeks seven and weeks sixty two and he will return and will be built wide road and wall and (troublous?) will be the times.

And after sixty two weeks anointing will be cut off and judgment is not in him and the city and the holy he will ruin along with the leader the coming and they will be cut with a flood and until the end war having been circumscribed he will order destruction.

Since we know from history that the destruction of the temple occurred approximately 40 years after the cutting off of the anointed, it doesn't seem to me that there is another destroyer being referred to as working with the anointed/the coming leader to accomplish the destruction of the temple, so that there are, in effect, two or more destroyers involved, but instead, in seems to me that the text is simply saying that with the destruction of the anointed/coming leader the city and the holy will be destroyed. At least that is how I'm understanding it. edit: as in analogous with, not together with

But again, there is the question of who is the destroyer in the first place. Which is why I think it's important to note that not only is the subject of the verb not directly named from what I can tell, but there doesn't even seem to be a pronoun associated with the verb φθερεῖ either.

I used the pronoun "he" by default, since the word φθερεῖ actually means he/she/it will destroy, depending on who the subject is, which in this case is not named.

Here is an example of how this word is used in the New Testament:

Lexicon / Concordance for 1 Corinthians 3:17

3:17 εἴ τις τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ φθείρει φθερεῖ τοῦτον ὁ θεός ὁ γὰρ ναὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἅγιός ἐστιν οἵτινές ἐστε ὑμεῖς

1Cr 3:17

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

Robinson-Pierpont 2005 World English Bible‎ / Wiki English Translation‏
Lk 12:33 Πωλήσατε τὰ ὑπάρχοντα ὑμῶν καὶ δότε ἐλεημοσύνην. Ποιήσατε ἑαυτοῖς { βαλάντια ♦ βαλλάντια } μὴ παλαιούμενα, θησαυρὸν ἀνέκλειπτον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς, ὅπου κλέπτης οὐκ ἐγγίζει, οὐδὲ σὴς διαφθείρει·

Lk 12:33 Sell that which you have, and give gifts to the needy. Make for yourselves purses which don’t grow old, a treasure in the heavens that doesn’t fail, where no thief approaches, neither moth destroys.

In any case, here's how I see it.

Regardless of who may or may not have been directly involved with the physical destruction of the city and the temple, it seems to me that, in any event, the following passages make it clear that the destruction of the city and the temple was, nevertheless, ordained by the Lord:

Matthew 23:37-39 (King James Version)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 19:41-44 (King James Version)

41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

he will order destruction.

Is the word "order" as in "arrange it" or "command it"?
Prayerfully,
Lisa

That is another good question, Pretzelogical. I'm really not sure what the answer is, but here is how the noun form of this word is defined in the Blue Letter Bible dictionary:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5010&t=KJV

And here are a couple of examples of how this word was used in the Septuagint in the Old Testament:

CATSS LXX World English Bible‎ / Wiki English Translation‏
1Kgs 22:7 καὶ εἶπεν Σαουλ πρὸς τοὺς παῖδας αὐτοῦ τοὺς παρεστηκότας αὐτῷ καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ἀκούσατε δή υἱοὶ Βενιαμιν εἰ ἀληθῶς πᾶσιν ὑμῖν δώσει ὁ υἱὸς Ιεσσαι ἀγροὺς καὶ ἀμπελῶνας καὶ πάντας ὑμᾶς τάξει ἑκατοντάρχους καὶ χιλιάρχους

1Sm 22:7 Saul said to his servants who stood about him, “Hear now, you Benjamites! Will the son of Jesse give everyone of you fields and vineyards, will he make you all captains of thousands and captains of hundreds,

CATSS LXX World English Bible‎ / Wiki English Translation‏
Zec 10:3 ἐπὶ τοὺς ποιμένας παρωξύνθη ὁ θυμός μου καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀμνοὺς ἐπισκέψομαι καὶ ἐπισκέψεται κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ τὸ ποίμνιον αὐτοῦ τὸν οἶκον Ιουδα καὶ τάξει αὐτοὺς ὡς ἵππον εὐπρεπῆ αὐτοῦ ἐν πολέμῳ

Zec 10:3

My anger is kindled against the shepherds,
and I will punish the male goats;
For Yahweh of Armies has visited his flock, the house of Judah,
and will make them as his majestic horse in the battle.

edited for clarity

[Pretzelogical]

As far as "order" goes, that is a great help that you have provided on how it was used elsewhere in the scriptures! ...it looks like it means both: someone with authority commands the arrangements. Afterall, it is the person in charge who gets to arrange things their way, right? A ruler sets the rules. It seems obvious now, and not so great a question afterall.

You are so gracious!

Thank you for comforting me with the word. It is not popular in these days to say Jesus, the Anointed, is the destroyer. Somehow, as a teen reading the scriptures each day, I understood Daniel chapter nine spoke of Jesus, the destroyer who destroyed sin at the cross; but then I became "educated" about the pre-trib, anti-Christ seated in a temple, and other disinformation. Since ridding myself of having to fit scripture into the pre-trib mold, I am finding all of scripture adds up beautifully. It is much more profitable to my soul to understand that the anti-Christ's can rule my mind to sin; than to think about someday there will be the Anti-Christ in a rebuilt temple demanding to be worshiped. The spirits of anti-Christ want my worship every moment of every day! That is the danger! That is Paul is warning to the Thessalonians. That is the warning to every generation of believers.

I want to say it again, that we clearly see an anti-Christ in other chapters of Daniel destroying the "mighty holy people" but I do not see an anti-Christ anywhere in Daniel chapter nine. To place an anti-Christ in chapter nine is clearly adding to the scriptures. This has been difficult for me to accept because I had been taught so much prophecy based on the false premise that Daniel chapter nine was speaking of an anti-Christ. There are days when I think that false teaching is "the lie" of which scripture speaks because I can see how the anti-Christ could convince people that the passage speaks of the Messiah (because it does!) and then he would claim to be the Messiah who opened their eyes to the truth of the scriptures.

It really disturbs me to see the idol-worship of the temple going on these days. Then to see in the video of the practice temple being built outside of Jericho, that everyone is to build their own model of the temple as a reminder...

Revelation 13:14
And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

I also find it interesting that this practice temple being built outside of Jericho is like the Old Testament temple - nothing like the temple of Ezekiel. Why aren't they building a temple like the one described in Ezekiel like all the pre-trib teachers have been saying for forty years!?

There are evil ones who want to have an anti-Christ sit as King Solomon. They do not want the Messiah to rule their heart. They are false teachers just like the ones of the New Testament churches. If the rabbis thought that the temple in Ezekiel is from where the Messiah will reign, then why aren't they building that temple?

They want to rebuild the temple that God destroyed. I truly believe Ezekiel is speaking of a spiritual temple using the symbolic language that is consistently used throughout the scriptures. Scripture repeatedly says whenever we allow sin to rule over our actions, we have given the enemy rule over us. We are all slaves to sin without Christ. But even while in Christ, we obey sin as if it was still our master even though it is not. How foolish we are!

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Psalm 19
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Proverbs 16:32
He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty,And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.

Since Jesus said the apostasy must come first, Paul tells the Thessalonians to take notice that they are holding fast and not apostate. If the anti-Christ had come, they would be falling away from the truth that Jesus is God in the flesh, that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, the Light that has already come into the world. The Thessalonians were still in unity around the truth of scripture and obeying its commands. The apostasy had not come, so the anti-Christ had not yet come. We have that same truth today to tell us that the anti-Christ has not yet come. The true church was holding fast well into the 1800's. We are now seeing a great falling away. Every generation says this, of course, for it is true for every generation.

Jesus said we would see the apostasy, not the rebuilding of a temple.
The Holy Spirit in New Testament writers said the believers are living stones being built into the temple of God. Scripture also says our own bodies are the temple of God. When we, as a gathering of living stones or as individuals, allow Satan to rule us, we have an anti-Christ seated in the temple of God. Scripture says there are many anti-Christs that have come into the world. No kidding. We see it throughout the church and influencing those who claim the Name of Christ.

It was an abomination of desolation that destroyed the temple and took the Israelites captive.
It was an abomination of desolation that destroyed Jesus, "this temple", that He "raised again in three days" just as He said He would.
It was an abomination of desolation that destroyed the believers of the first century, and that abomination continues to this day in many parts of the world.
So my question is, does it seems reasonable, that when we see all of the believers of the world surrounded without a way of escape, then we will know that the desolation is near, as Jesus warned?

There has always been a remnant of believers to escape. "Just like in the days of Noah" scripture says there will be a faithful remnant escape the on-going beheadings of the son of perdition. We see the beheaded saints under the altar in Revelation.
There was no temple in the days of Noah. God didn't have Noah build a temple.
There was no temple in the days of Lot either.
If the temple was useful to believers, Jesus would have made that clear to us.
Instead, Jesus and Paul both emphasize the apostasy as a sign of His coming.
The temple is part of the anti-Christ deception: not that we are to watch for an event someday, but that we are to guard the truth in our minds and actions.

[watching]

Hi Pretzelogical,

I'm not sure if there will be a humanly rebuilt Jewish temple on the Temple Mount at the time of the abomination of desolation or not. Nor am I sure what the abomination of desolation will be exactly. However, as I have said earlier in this thread, whatever the AOD may be, I feel certain that it will be something we can see with our eyes.

Here is what the Lord said in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:15-16 (King James Version)

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

I have also expressed, earlier in this thread, what I think the "apostasy" (translated as "falling away" in the KJV) in 2 Thessalonians 2 is referring to.

However, I have had a change of heart regarding my view of Daniel 9 in terms of the AOD.

I used to think, at least since I first started posting here at FP, that the following phrase in Daniel 9:27:

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

was referring only to the abominations that had been committed up until, and culminating in, the "overspreading" or "extremity" of abominations, which, according to my understanding, would be the "cutting off" of the Messiah (our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ).

However, I'm beginning to see it a little differently now.

And this is, in part, due to lambslave's comment earlier in this thread:

Watching, I must say, my research into the reading of Daniel 9:27b causes me to favor those translations which see a different one who comes and makes desolate such as the NAS and others.

because, after considering lambslave's comment, and in light of the Septuagint translation above, there seems to be, (to me, anyway), a blurring, or maybe I should say blending, of prophecy at the midpoint of the 70th week.

In other words, it seems to me, that the middle of the 70th week ends, as well as, begins with an abomination of desolation.

At least that's how I'm seeing it, at the present time.

[Pretzelogical]

In other words, it seems to me, that the middle of the 70th week ends, as well as, begins with an abomination of desolation.

Yes - I pray that as I read through the scriptures, I will notice this type of thing happening elsewhere to confirm this.

And I highly value the teachings of Stephen'Lambslave as he is so thorough in his studies and God has given him a heart to desire only the truth.

As far as Daniel 9:27b goes, I can see this describing Jesus' at His first coming. And I can also see it describing the abomination of destroying the "mighty holy people" as the abomination, then will come an evil desolator who Jesus destroys. I don't want to take an either/or position on this since both events are clearly taught in scripture and this passage fits both events. That is what so amazing about the Living Word. It truly is alive and speaking to both times Christ comes: once to be desolated, and another time to destroy the desolator of His saints. It was an abomination of desolation to destroy the Messiah the Prince who was promised to come, and it is an abomination to desolate the believers (holy temple = gathering and altar = individuals) and so the desolator who commits this abomination will be destroyed when Christ returns.

Daniel 9:27b
and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

This is powerful testimony to the accuracy of God's word and the consistentcy of the metaphors, themes and doctrines throughout the writings of both testaments. Because Jesus fulfilled this in His first coming, I believe it will be fulfilled in His second coming. Just like the sign of Jonah is the only sign to that generation, we have that sign for the last generation too. Three days in the grave and then He arose to be a powerful witness of His redemptive grace. The faithful remnant that witnesses with the power of the word (fire in their mouths) will be raised again. Lambslave's translating studies show that the two witnesses are two groups of people, not two individuals as I had been taught. Lambslave teaches that they are the churches of Philadelphia and Symrna acting in the offices of priest and king as a testimony of Jesus the High Priest and King. These two faithful churches are also a sign of Jonah as they are dead in the streets and then raised. The apostasy must come first, then the two witnesses will speak the word boldly and with power from heaven. Obviously, I see this as spiritual fire, not a physical burning of the flesh, but the work of the Holy Spirit.

Again, to think that someday there will be these two guys who breath fire like dragons does not nothing for my spiritual growth. To think that perhaps I could be in a faithful church and remain faithful to boldly preach the word in the streets and be killed for it - now that moves my faith into action! It isn't just two guys somewhere. It is two faithful churches all over the world, seen all over the world, hated all over the world, and raised again all over the world. That has me praying for more faith, Father!

[watching]

Hi Pretzelogical,

Although I agree with lambslave's interpretation of Daniel 9:27, in many ways, I really cannot say the same thing regarding his view on the two witnesses. Because, for one thing, I have not really studied this issue enough to be able to comment on it. But, also, because, I tend to lean towards a literal interpretation of scripture, unless a symbolic one is explicitly explained in the scriptures.

[Pretzelogical]

From Lambslave:

The singular nouns "mouth" (11:5) and "body" (11:8-9) properly express functions of a large body of people but would be linguistic errors in reference to two persons.

If it were two people, the fire would come from their mouths (plural). But since fire comes from the mouth (singular) of the witnesses, we understand that a group is saying the same thing as if it is one mouth. This is what the passage says.

From Lambslave:

The beast is said to "make war with them and kill them" at the conclusion of their testimony. Such a description does not fit the simple execution of two persons.

That one makes it very clear we are speaking of two groups of people, not two persons.


From Lambslave:

Next, we are notified that their dead "body" (singular, not plural) lies (verb supplied by translators) “in the street of the great city.” Because the phrase "the great city" is discovered to be a reference to the "woman" (great harlot) of chapters 17 and 18, who personifies the multiplied Babylon-like cities of the world, a great number of dead are envisioned lying in the streets of the world's cities. It was here in the Babylon-like world-city that Jesus was crucified. In addition, the wide number of those from "the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations" who look at their dead bodies speaks of a large number of dead bodies distributed widely.

Again, for two people, we would read about their bodies (plural). However, we call a group a body (singular) and that is what John and the Holy Spirit have written.

From Lambslave:

Nothing in the text of chapter 11 leads us to hypothesize two individual persons;

Read more at his site. Scripture defines scripture, so we don't have to take a symbolic meaning out of thin air. As you, I also refuse to do that. The definitions are all given in the text more than once since the law requires atleast two witnesses. Any teaching that can only be verified in one text is a false teaching. This is fascinating reading as it unlocks so much about worshiping Jesus and serving Him faithfully:
http://expressright.com/wits.aspx

[watching]

Hi Pretzelogical,

The singular nouns "mouth" (11:5) and "body" (11:8-9) properly express functions of a large body of people but would be linguistic errors in reference to two persons.

I have looked into this, and the word translated as mouth in the Greek is the word στοματος, and from what I'm seeing, although the word itself is singular, it can be used in the same singular form in connection with a single subject, or with more than one subject. (Just like in English, btw.)

Here are some examples:

single subject

Matthew 4:4
Ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν, γέγραπται, Οὐκ ἐπ᾽ ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ διὰ στόματος Θεοῦ

Mat 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Acts 4:25
ὁ διὰ στόματος Δαβὶδ τοῦ παιδός σου εἰπών Ἱνατί ἐφρύαξαν ἔθνη καὶ λαοὶ ἐμελέτησαν κενά

Act 4:25
Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

more than one subject

Matthew 21:16
καὶ εἶπον αὐτῷ Ἀκούεις τί οὗτοι λέγουσιν ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς Ναί οὐδέποτε ἀνέγνωτε ὅτι Ἐκ στόματος νηπίων καὶ θηλαζόντων κατηρτίσω αἶνον

Mat 21:16
And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Matthew 18:16
ἐὰν δὲ μὴ ἀκούσῃ παράλαβε μετὰ σοῦ ἔτι ἕνα ἢ δύο ἵνα ἐπὶ στόματος δύο μαρτύρων ἢ τριῶν σταθῇ πᾶν ῥῆμα

Mat 18:16
But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

This one, as well as the following verse, are particularly telling, because they are concerning two or three witnesses.

2 Corinthians 13:1
Τρίτον τοῦτο ἔρχομαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς ἐπὶ στόματος δύο μαρτύρων καὶ τριῶν σταθήσεται πᾶν ῥῆμα

2Cr 13:1
This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Acts 3:18
ὁ δὲ θεὸς ἃ προκατήγγειλεν διὰ στόματος πάντων τῶν προφητῶν αὐτοῦ παθεῖν τὸν Χριστὸν ἐπλήρωσεν οὕτως

Act 3:18
But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

number neutral

Matthew 15:11
οὐ τὸ εἰσερχόμενον εἰς τὸ στόμα κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἀλλὰ τὸ ἐκπορευόμενον ἐκ τοῦ στόματος τοῦτο κοινοῖ τὸν ἄνθρωπον

Mat 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

So, as you can see, it's perfectly understandable for the word mouth to be in the singular form, (in the Greek as well as in the English), regardless of whether you are referring to one, or more than one person, because, obviously, the reader knows that each person has only one mouth.

Next, we are notified that their dead "body" (singular, not plural) lies (verb supplied by translators) “in the street of the great city.”

Again, for two people, we would read about their bodies (plural). However, we call a group a body (singular) and that is what John and the Holy Spirit have written.

The word translated as "bodies" in Revelation 11 verses 8 and 9 is the Greek word πτωματα and it is definitely in the plural form, (the singular form would be πτῶμα). And it has been translated in the plural form in almost every translation that I have seen. http://bible.cc/revelation/11-8.htm
http://bible.cc/revelation/11-9.htm

So, I'm not sure where lambslave is getting the idea that it is singular.

Actually, I see where he got it from now. (I'm working on this as I go along.)

Anyway, there are two versions of the Greek text on Bible Gateway, and I always use the 1550 Stephanus New Testament, but apparently lambslave was using the 1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament.

I'm not sure which version is more reliable, but we had a discussion about this earlier in the thread (you may want to review the thread, if you haven't already).

Here are the two different versions in Greek and the King James Version from Biblegateway:

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 11:8-9 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

8και τα πτωματα αυτων επι της πλατειας πολεως της μεγαλης ητις καλειται πνευματικως σοδομα και αιγυπτος οπου και ο κυριος ημων εσταυρωθη

9και βλεψουσιν εκ των λαων και φυλων και γλωσσων και εθνων τα πτωματα αυτων ημερας τρεις και ημισυ και τα πτωματα αυτων ουκ αφησουσιν τεθηναι εις μνηματα

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 11:8-9 (1881 Westcott-Hort New Testament)

8και το πτωμα αυτων επι της πλατειας της πολεως της μεγαλης ητις καλειται πνευματικως σοδομα και αιγυπτος οπου και ο κυριος αυτων εσταυρωθη

9και βλεπουσιν εκ των λαων και φυλων και γλωσσων και εθνων το πτωμα αυτων ημερας τρεις και ημισυ και τα πτωματα αυτων ουκ αφιουσιν τεθηναι εις μνημα

Revelation 11:8-9 (King James Version)

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

In any case, here is the translation given by the Katabiblon site (linked earlier in this thread), which is, apparently, also using, or was corrected by someone using, the Westcott-Hort text in this instance. (This is where I first noticed the word in question in it's singular form, as I was typing this post, just as I got finished saying it was not in the singular form.)

Robinson-Pierpont 2005 World English Bible‎ / Wiki English Translation‏
Rv 11:8 Καὶ τὸ πτῶμα αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τῆς πλατείας τῆς πόλεως τῆς μεγάλης, ἥτις καλεῖται πνευματικῶς Σόδομα καὶ Αἴγυπτος, ὅπου καὶ ὁ κύριος αὐτῶν ἐσταυρώθη

Rv 11:8 Their And their dead bodies corpse[a] will be (lies) in on the street[c] of the great city, —which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, —where also their Lord was crucified.,

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.php?mode=fetch&text=GNT&range=Rv11:8&lemma=%CF%80%CF%84%E1%BF%B6%CE%BC%CE%B1&i=on

Robinson-Pierpont 2005 World English Bible‎ / Wiki English Translation‏
Rv 11:9 καὶ Καὶ βλέπουσιν ἐκ τῶν λαῶν καὶ φυλῶν καὶ γλωσσῶν καὶ ἐθνῶν τὸ [b]πτῶμα αὐτῶν ἡμέρας τρεῖς { ἥμισυ ♦ καὶ ἥμισυ }, καὶ τὰ πτώματα αὐτῶν οὐκ { ἀφήσουσιν ♦ ἀφίουσιν } τεθῆναι εἰς μνῆμα.

Rv 11:9 From and (the people of the city)—from among the peoples, and tribes, and languages, and nations people will [a]—look (at) their dead bodies corpse for three and a half days, and will do not allow their dead bodies corpses to be laid placed in a tomb.;

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.php?mode=fetch&text=GNT&range=Rv11:9&lemma=%CF%80%CF%84%E1%BF%B6%CE%BC%CE%B1&i=on

In any event, as I explained earlier in this thread, I, personally, feel more comfortable with the Textus Receptus/1550 Stephanus New Testament version, for the reasons I cited above, which were based on my limited research into the issue of the two texts. fwiw.

Besides all of this, I would like to point out, however, regardless of which of the two translations, may be correct, I really do not see any of this as enough evidence to support lambslave's theory concerning the two witnesses.

There just isn't enough scriptural support to confirm that view, in my opinion, from what I'm seeing.

[Pretzelogical]

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your insightful post, Watching. Life is good, and I praise The Name above them all, LORD Christ Jesus!

The priesthood and royalty go side-by-side throughout the scriptures, until we see the two offices combined in Jesus as our Royal High Priest. Looking at Lambslave's identification of the two witnesses representing these offices is very sound Biblically, to my thinking.

The Old Testament says to Israel, " 'You are my witnesses', declares the LORD. 'And my servant whom I have chosen. So that you may know and believe. And understand that I am He. Before me no God was formed. Nor will there be one after me.' "

To me, this makes me think of the end times when the faithful Jewish believers are witnessing as a part of the royal priesthood, as the book of Hebrews says. Why are they witnessing? "So that you (Israel) may know and believe." Believe what? "understand that I am He", the One true eternal God. Amen!

This is just one of the numerous examples that jump out at me as I read through the word. Why would Jesus call the persecutors of a gentile church, "a synagogue of Satan"? Is it because He is speaking to two Jewish churches, Symrna and Philadelphia, who are being accused of that, just as the Jewish leaders said that of Jesus? That is still being said today of Jews who are believers.

Others believe the two witnesses are the Jewish church and the gentile church. However, Zechariah makes it clear, the office of priest and king combine in Christ and flows to His people.

To further define the churches of Symrna and Philadelphia as the two witnesses, in Revelation, they are the two lampstands that stand. In Zechariah, they are the lampstands and the two olive trees. In Rev. it says the two lampstands are the two olive trees. The two lampstands that stand are Philadelphia and Symrna. We see olive trees for Israel often in the scriptures. If the two churches are the two lampstands that are the two olive trees, then they are Jewish churches. It is exciting to think of this 144,000 boldly speaking the word to their Israelite brothers by the Holy Spirit in "bringing in the sheaves"...They will come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves"! Glory to our Savior!

To the discussion of the thread "temple of God", perhaps we should word-study the seven "churches" and the "synagogue" of Satan. There may be something there to confirm or reject the teaching that the two witnesses as the two Jewish churches. I do find it incredible that they are the only two of the seven churches found to be without blemish and standing firm. That of course will be true of the two witnesses. Will Jesus find anyone faithful when He returns?
Yes, the two witnesses, His faithful remnant. And we see throughout the scriptures that the reason God leaves a faithful remnant is for them to be His witnesses.

[mark s]

I have looked into this, and the word translated as mouth in the Greek is the word στοματος, and from what I'm seeing, although the word itself is singular, it can be used in the same singular form in connection with a single subject, or with more than one subject. (Just like in English, btw.)

Here are some examples:

Hi watching,

Excellent post! I commend you on the thoroughness of your study!



Love in Christ,
Mark

[Pretzelogical]

it can be used in the same singular form in connection with a single subject, or with more than one subject.

...thus it does not make Lambslave's teaching invalid, but instead, allows for the teaching of the two witnesses to be the two Jewish churches.

Lambslave and I have already been through this with Mark in other threads, so I am done with it here.
(Search "witnesses lambslave mark" to view those threads. I still hold my position as valid scripturally.)

[daffodyllady]

In the book "If I perish, I perish" by Esther Kim, She tells her experience as a Christian in Korea under the Japanese emperor during WW2. Every Church was required to place a picture of the Japanese emperor on the altar rail, and every Christian was required to bow before it in worship before a church service could begin.

This, to me, is a far more New Testament type of Abomination of Desolation than an "Antiochus Epiphanes rerun."

If I would see the Japanese emperor trick done on a world-wide scale, I would say that was it.

[watching]

Hi Pretzelogical,

This is just one of the numerous examples that jump out at me as I read through the word. Why would Jesus call the persecutors of a gentile church, "a synagogue of Satan"? Is it because He is speaking to two Jewish churches, Symrna and Philadelphia, who are being accused of that, just as the Jewish leaders said that of Jesus? That is still being said today of Jews who are believers.

I'm not sure what the answer to your question is, or if this helps or not, but the word "synagogue" does not always, necessarily refer to a "Jewish" assembly. See Blue Letter Bible definition:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4864&t=KJV&page=3

In Zechariah, they are the lampstands and the two olive trees.

Actually, in Zechariah, there is only one lampstand:

Zechariah 4 (King James Version)

1And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

2And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

8Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

9The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

10For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

11Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

In any case, I'm not saying that I know who the two witnesses are/will be, because, obviously, I don't know.

All I'm saying is that I'm not convinced, one way or another, in terms of their identity.

And unless I am convinced otherwise, I tend to lean towards a literal interpretation of scripture. Unless, of course, the scripture itself offers an explanation of the symbolism.

But then again, even if the scripture offers an explanation of the symbolism in one passage, I don't think we can necessarily apply that same symbolism to another, passage which may, or may not, be related.

Because the symbolism may, or may not, always be the same in every passage.

At least, that's my approach, anyway.

[watching]

I have looked into this, and the word translated as mouth in the Greek is the word στοματος, and from what I'm seeing, although the word itself is singular, it can be used in the same singular form in connection with a single subject, or with more than one subject. (Just like in English, btw.)

Here are some examples:

Hi watching,

Excellent post! I commend you on the thoroughness of your study!



Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark s.,

Thanks.

Actually, I wanted to add an edit to my post, but never did, to say that, I would think, the same rule would apply to the word πτῶμα which means "dead body" or "corpse." Because, obviously, each person has only one body.

In other words, I think it makes sense to use the singular form of the word πτῶμα whether someone is referring to one person or more than one person. It just depends on how someone chooses to word their sentence, just as is the case with the word στοματος (mouth).

Because as I said before, just as each person has only one mouth, each person, also, has only one body. So there shouldn't be any confusion, even if more than one subject is being referenced.

Wouldn't you agree?

[mark s]

Hi Watching,

While I haven't researched this in depth, it seems to me that grammatically, it would be the same form, so I don't know why that would not hold true.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Pretzelogical]

Pretzelogical wrote:
In Zechariah, they are the lampstands and the two olive trees.

Actually, in Zechariah, there is only one lampstand:

Yes. What I am saying is in Zechariah you have the two olive trees, and in Revelation 11 the two olive trees and the two candlesticks are the two witnesses. The two candlesticks were defined as churches at the beginning of Revelation. In Zechariah, the two olive trees are connected to the lampstand giving the oil to the lampstand just as the two witnesses give testimony to Christ.

Revelation 11:3-4
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev. 11:3-4 is saying the two olive trees=the two candlesticks=the two witnesses.
Scripture also says the two witnesses are the Firstfruits, and the Firstfruits are the 144,000, and the 144,000 are from the tribes of Israel. Therefore the two witnesses are from the tribes of Israel.
Since the two witnesses are the two candlesticks - which two candlesticks?
The only two candlesticks singled out are the two faithful churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia.
Therefore, the two faithful churches are the faithful two witnesses.
And they are of the tribes of Israel.

Sorry I had to post about it again to make it clear what I was saying. I just am really excited that those of the tribe of Israel will be faithful witnesses while "he as God sitteth in the temple of God"!

[watching]

Hi Pretzelogical,

Well then, what/who does the one lamp stand in Zechariah represent?

[Pretzelogical]

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

At the time of Jesus visitation, many of the people of Israel were looking for a messiah of might (military)and power (political) to rule over them. They were not looking for the Light of the world, and His promise to send His Spirit to them to rule in their hearts and minds. Poor Zechariah; in sixteen years he had not been able to get the people to finish the work of rebuilding the temple. They were double-minded instead of being singular in their focus. God shows Zechariah that a temple will be built, and it will measure up to God's standard. It won't be built by power and might, but by His Spirit.

The following verses came to my mind about the eye and lamps:

Zechariah 4:10
For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Revelation 5:6
And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Daniel 10:6
His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

Matthew 6:21-24
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 11:33-36
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light.
The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

While the people of Israel were celebrating their Feast of Chanukah with a lampstand representing the eight days the oil lasted in the military siege, Jesus stands up in the middle of the celebration and shouts that He is the Light of the world! Jesus tells believers that they are to be the light of the world continually being filled by His Spirit. The final message from Jesus as He ascended into heaven was "You shall be my witnesses into all the world" just as was said in the Old Testament: "You are my witnesses...so that you may know and believe, and understand that I am He."

We know from scripture:
The church is the body of Christ with Jesus as the head (with eyes).
The lampstand has the eyes of God.
Lampstands are defined as churches.
The church is the light of the world through the Holy Spirit of the Light of the world.

Two witnesses continually (faithfully) stand connected to the lampstand with oil flowing from them.
The angel is surprised to find that Zechariah (king) did not understand that he was one of the branches of the olive tree.
Joshua (priest) is a branch from the other olive tree.
Jesus is both King and High Priest who promises never to leave nor take His Spirit from His believers.

Right now, I am pondering that the lampstand is the nation of Israel in Christ ( as the body of Christ, the church with Christ as the head) as a result of the faithful witness of the two olive trees. It is a picture of the people of Israel being a light to the world. The people of Israel are filled with the Holy Spirit by the testimony of two witnesses "so that you may know and believe, and understand that I am He."

The five foolish virgins had their own oil, and it was going out as they waited for the Bridegroom who was delayed. For awhile, the oil of the foolish virgins burned and shone like the oil of the wise virgins. But the inferior oil was used up. But the wise virgins had oil that did not run out. They also had extra oil with them. (Should they stumble and need to refill?) It is not an inferior oil of might and power that is needed, but an oil that never runs out. It is not the teachings and good works of man that continue to shine in the dark night. It is the teaching of the Word and a humble heart that shines the Spirit of the LORD until He comes.

Just found this by Clarence Wagner. I take it as a confirmation. What do you think?
"The Gold Lampstand and the Two Olive Trees (Zechariah 4)
Meaning: Israel as the light to the nations under Messiah, the King-Priest.

In this vision, Zechariah saw a gold lampstand with a bowl of oil at the top, from which seven channels continually supplied the seven lights on the lampstand. Then, there were two olive trees standing on each side of the lampstand with two gold pipes that continually supplied golden oil to the bowl.

Zechariah asked the meaning of the lampstand with seven lights, and was told, "These seven are the eyes of the Lord, which range throughout the earth" (v. 10b). And of the olive trees, "These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth" (v. 14). The whole vision is connected to Zerubbabel, the governor of Judah, and the rebuilding of the Temple. The angel says that he would finish the Temple (v. 9) through the abundant supply of the Spirit of God, and then everyone would know that God's hand was in it. Thus, the oil for the lamp is associated with the Holy Spirit. Jewish sources say that God would shed His light on Israel, in contrast to their present darkness, and this would enable God's plans to be fulfilled.

Military might and human manpower could not accomplish this without God's Spirit and His light. It is in this passage where we get God's prescription on how to get things done, "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the Lord Almighty" (v.6). It is suggested by scholars that the "two" branches of the olive tree refers to Joshua and Zerubbabel, as priest and king, which represents the role of the Messiah who is Priest and King of Israel, supplying light to the nation."

[Pretzelogical]

Amazing what Daffy wrote:

If I would see the Japanese emperor trick done on a world-wide scale, I would say that was it.

What if the picture is of oneself as equal to god?

[Yogi]

For what it is worth, here is my theory:

No temple will be built until Jesus returns. Though certain Jews are PREPARING for such a thing, they admit they are awaiting the Messiah...who will be the one to build it according to Zech. 6:12.

This puts some Christians in the awkward place of desiring a temple for the anti-Christ.

Not only that, but Jesus said that we would SEE this thing (written of by Daniel) IN THE HOLY PLACE!!! No self respecting Jew would allow anyone but the high priest to go into the Holy Place. To even suggest it would get you rejected as Messiah.

Any temple built would have to be immediately torn down to make way for the one described in Eze. 41 etc. By th way God will not share His holy hill with something built to a pagan god either. So the dome covered bldg. would have to go. This would take world war 3.

So does there NEED to be a temple for this statement by Paul to come to pass? NO! There has been another terrible misread as far as I am concerned. We have been "hearing" it wrong when we read it.

Picture if you will for a moment, an old Jewish Rabbi (Paul), emphasizing his disgust, perhaps rolling his eyes upward, saying, ...he...(slight pause)...as God sits in the temple of God....(paraph)...makes a show of himself, as though he is God!

I think this better captures the true intended voice. But, when you take obsolete Greek and put it into obsolete English, then read it the way we speak now, the misunderstanding comes in. So, it is about what he does and how he does it that is the subject, not the location.

But there is more. All of these prophecies come together! What about SEEING into the Holy Place? This would be fulfilled by this mocker being in someplace set up to look like he were in the Holy of Holies. This is all it would take.

Beyond that, we would then have an "image" that would seem to be alive! Now let's say this is shown (projected?) on/at the "wing" (border) of the "temple" (a word used even for the very temple mount) and we are talking about a blasphemous event at the Wailing Wall!!!

Solves it for me.

[Pretzelogical]

Is anyone else concerned that a man empowered by Satan who thinks he is God may want human sacrifices?
What does biblical history teach us?
Is infecting people with diesease a part of the current satanic ritual?


Edited to add: Satan perverts the scriptures to deceive people into thinking he is God. What may he do with these?
Isaiah 1:11
I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Psalm 51:16b
You are not pleased with burnt offering.

[GodsStudent]

That's a good question, Pretzel. I've heard several in the upper eschalon of the progressive agenda call for a reduced population (as sustainability is such an issue for them). What truly motivates this call? I have a hard time with those who deny that this is a goal of theirs, as their actions and agendas are indeed leading to the killing off of people. I have my own opinions as to how several industries work to that end. Am thinking of deals made that "set up" problems, such as rubber stamped oil rigs, pharmaceutical products, campains for "swine flu vaccines", chem trails and so forth. I, of course, do not have any evidence of these things, other than having seen videos and listened to clips of the words coming straight out of their mouth as to this intended goal..... nah....I am being a tin foil hatter.....we can trust them, right? .....

[watching]

Is anyone else concerned that a man empowered by Satan who thinks he is God may want human sacrifices?

I don't know if human sacrifices will be demanded, per se, but the following will be.

Revelation 13 (King James Version)

1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

[lambslave]

I am going to start a new thread that strikes at what I believe to be the heart of the book of Revelation, and certainly central to why we reach these impasses like Daniel 9:27b. It is a spiritual issue. I don't mean anything like if you don't see it my way you don't have the Holy Spirit. So I'll make no further comment here and start at the beginning. Lambslave. My visits will only be brief. Thing are getting much harder.

[mark s]

For what it is worth, here is my theory:

No temple will be built until Jesus returns. Though certain Jews are PREPARING for such a thing, they admit they are awaiting the Messiah...who will be the one to build it according to Zech. 6:12.

Hi Yogi,

Some people think that the Jews will be deceived by the antichrist (or, in my case, the false prophet) because this person will make it possible to rebuild a the temple.

I see nothing that prevents Zechariah's prophecy from being fulfilled by Jesus even if another temple is built previous to that one.

This puts some Christians in the awkward place of desiring a temple for the anti-Christ.

I'd put this more like that we expect to see one due to the presuppositions contained in the plain-sense reading of the prophecies. It's not like "wanting a temple for the anti-Christ".

Not only that, but Jesus said that we would SEE this thing (written of by Daniel) IN THE HOLY PLACE!!! No self respecting Jew would allow anyone but the high priest to go into the Holy Place. To even suggest it would get you rejected as Messiah.

I think this would have a lot to do with this act being called "the abomination of desolation". I also think this will have a lot to do with those in Judea fleeing when they see this thing happen.

Any temple built would have to be immediately torn down to make way for the one described in Eze. 41 etc. By th way God will not share His holy hill with something built to a pagan god either. So the dome covered bldg. would have to go. This would take world war 3.

Consider . . . when Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives, it will split in half, east to west, creating a valley. Directly west from the Mount of Olives is the temple mount. This valley will most likely destroy any buildings then existing on the temple mount.

The prophecies also tell us that the entire region will lift up into a plain, changing the geography of Israel. The temple Jesus will build will, in my understanding, be built upon that plain.

So does there NEED to be a temple for this statement by Paul to come to pass? NO! There has been another terrible misread as far as I am concerned. We have been "hearing" it wrong when we read it.

Myself, when the apostle says "he as God sits in the temple of God", I'm thinking that's what "he" will do.

I think when you take the obsolete Greek and simply translate it into English . . .

He opposes and lifts himself over everything called God, or venerated as God, so as to be seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he is God.

All the elements are important. What he does, why he does it, and where he does it.

Whatever people call God, whatever people venerate as God, he will oppose, and exalt himself over. He will carry this to the nth degree, so that he will even sit in the temple built to the True God, taking his place there as though he were God, to demonstrate to the world that he actually is God.

This to me is the simplest 'plain sense' reading of the passage.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[lambslave]

Mark, It is not the seating one's self in a particular place that would cause anyone to become convinced that you might be God. That sort of thing has been tried throughout history to no avail. It is the God-like, above-human actions of an individual that allow Him the possiblity of being recognized as God. And there are two possible individuals who might show up on the stage of history that will be seen as God. One--God Himself--the Lamb on the throne, the KIng on the cross, showing us that central to His rule, power, and wisdom is a sacrificed Lamb (Rev 5:6); the other, not God at all, but claiming to be God because of His displays of power like none before him, displays to a world that worships such power instead of the true God. Lambslave

[mark s]

Mark, It is not the seating one's self in a particular place that would cause anyone to become convinced that you might be God. That sort of thing has been tried throughout history to no avail. It is the God-like, above-human actions of an individual that allow Him the possiblity of being recognized as God. And there are two possible individuals who might show up on the stage of history that will be seen as God. One--God Himself--the Lamb on the throne, the KIng on the cross, showing us that central to His rule, power, and wisdom is a sacrificed Lamb (Rev 5:6); the other, not God at all, but claiming to be God because of His displays of power like none before him, displays to a world that worships such power instead of the true God. Lambslave

Hi lambslave,

I'm not saying that's the only thing he will do . . . but it is something he will do, if we simply read it simply.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[watching]

Hi Mark s.,

Saying that someone is self exalted so as to sit in the temple of God, is not the same thing as saying someone will sit in the temple of God.

So, I don't think this verse proves or disproves whether there will be a humanly rebuilt Jewish temple on the Temple Mount prior to the AOD or not.

But I do believe that whatever will take place, (temple or no temple), will be centered in Jerusalem, because I do not know of any other place in the world that would be considered the "Holy Place," other than Jerusalem or the Temple Mount (regardless of whether there is a humanly built temple there or not).

1 Kings 11:36 (King James Version)

36And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.

Btw, while I was looking for this verse, I found this video, which I thought was interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ALxcFRxucE

[Pretzelogical]

Exodus 19:3-4
Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself.

God did not bring Moses and God's people out of Egypt on eagles' wings.
God is not a liar.
Therefore, God does not use simple language.
Obviously, this is not a collection of 66 simple books.

Lord, I pray I will "be diligent to present (my)self approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15) Amen.

Edited to add: God does not ALWAYS use simple language. DUH Mark.

[mark s]

Therefore, God does not use simple language.

Ever?

[lambslave]

Watching, you make some good points. Considering Jerusalem, I'm not so sure about Jesus pointing to it as such. There is a distinction to be made between between what is holy and that which is considered as holy. The Jewish Temple was once holy, and the city of Jerusalem wherein the Temple was built was the place of this holiness, the only place the temple could be built. But if built today it would not be. Fact: The church, wherein the Holy Spirit dwells is holy. And the place where the church has (arguably) grown most and been the centerpoint of speading the faith has been here, in the U.S. We have been, compared to the other nations of the earth, the holy place. But now, with the coming of apostacy, we will witness, IMO, the abomination of desolation. Jesus simply says, "when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the place of the holy...." It appears to me that something has to happen to us for those in Jersalem to see in order for them to flee! I do firmly believe in Jerusalem as the focal point of our prophecy compass. But we should watch that we are not distracted by others who have over-reacted on either side. Lambslave

[Yogi]

I have considered many things like these before. So far, the theory I presented is the only one that brings all 4 of these major prophecies together. Some may point out that they need not all fit together in one place.

However, as I have been saying for years now, just as the vast majority had it wrong when Jesus came the first time, the majority view will be wrong this time too. This is to me seems guaranteed.

[mark s]

Exodus 19:3-4
Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself.

God did not bring Moses and God's people out of Egypt on eagles' wings.
God is not a liar.
Therefore, God does not use simple language.
Obviously, this is not a collection of 66 simple books.

Lord, I pray I will "be diligent to present (my)self approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15) Amen.

Edited to add: God does not ALWAYS use simple language. DUH Mark.

Perhaps you are thinking I am needlessly stating the obvious, however, I want to make a point.

If we are agreed that God sometimes does, and sometimes does not speak allegorically, metaphorically, in symbols, it therefore remains to be shown what sort of language God was using in each particular place.

We can't just cherry pick, and say, this doesn't fit my view, therefore, it must not be "simple language". If our interpretations are to have Scriptural authority, then we must actually show from the text why we should not interpret the words in their normal customary way.

And its not enough to say, well, it was used allegorically in this other place, we need to show that it is used allegorically in that place.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

The Jewish Temple was once holy, and the city of Jerusalem wherein the Temple was built was the place of this holiness, the only place the temple could be built. But if built today it would not be.

If the temple were, perchance, rebuilt today, Jerusalem would still be holy, regardless of whether the temple is holy or not.
please note: (I am not in any way saying whether there will be a temple built in Jerusalem prior to the AOD, or not.

Because, of course, I don't know if there will be, or not.

But, in any case, it seems irrelevant to me.)

Fact: The church, wherein the Holy Spirit dwells is holy. And the place where the church has (arguably) grown most and been the centerpoint of speading the faith has been here, in the U.S. We have been, compared to the other nations of the earth, the holy place. But now, with the coming of apostacy, we will witness, IMO, the abomination of desolation. Jesus simply says, "when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the place of the holy...." It appears to me that something has to happen to us for those in Jerusalem to see in order for them to flee!

Are you saying that the abomination of desolation will occur in the US, by the US becoming even more apostate?

And when those in Jerusalem "see" the US become even more apostate, they will be so horrified that they will flee to the mountains, because of the US's apostasy?


And, if so, what will be the defining moment of this abomination, caused by the apostasy of the church in the US, that will cause those in Judea or Jerusalem to be able to "see" it?


Btw, here are a few words regarding the holiness of Jerusalem:
(based on a word search of the words "holy" and "Jerusalem")

Nehemiah 11:1
And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts to dwell in other cities.

Psalm 79:1
O god, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.

Isaiah 4:3
And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem

Isaiah 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Isaiah 52:1
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 66:20
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

Ezekiel 21:2
Son of man, set thy face toward Jerusalem, and drop thy word toward the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel,

Ezekiel 36:38
As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Daniel 9:16
O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Joel 3:17
So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Zechariah 2:12
And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.

Zechariah 8:3
Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.