"He as God sitteth in the temple of God"

by **ampersand** on Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:52 pm

II Thessalonians 2:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

1. Does a building, as a physical structure, have any meaning in the New Covenant?
2. Do we not find in Galatians, Hebrews, and Romans, that all of the ordinances of the Old Testament have been completed by the Righteous High Priest?
3. Is the temple of Judaism a temple of a false religion now that Christ has come?
4. If so, can it really be called the "temple of God?"
5. Therefore, does the temple of the Old Testament have any meaning in the New Testament?
6. When Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy write to the Thessalonians, are they referring to a physical temple?
7. Are we not the temple under the New Covenant, such that Holy Spirit lives in us?
8. What do the answers to these questions mean for this text?
9. Can you show some more texts about the "man of sin" sitting in the "temple of God?"
10. Are these the wrong/right questions to be asking?

In Christ,
&

by **Shelby** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:20 am

...and another verse that relates to this thread Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

by **made4eternity** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:24 am

Ampersand, I posted this link on the other thread (Ted Montgomery's comments on the Temple), you may find it provides some interesting food for thought.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/e ... ation.html

by **Wickus** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:29 pm

Ted's commentary made me think... There are two different Greek words translated to the English temple. The one is Naos that means shrine or inner sanctuary, and the other one is Hieron that relates to the temple complex with its outer courts.

G3485
ναός
naos
nah-os'
From a primary word ναίω naiō (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple: - shrine, temple. Compare G2411.

G2411
ἱερόν
hieron
hee-er-on'
Neuter of G2413; a sacred place, that is, the entire precincts (whereas G3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere): - temple.

The temple that John must measure is the "Naos" or the inner sanctuary. That is the place, as Ted stated correctly, that only the high priest could enter. Now the question is who are the worshipers in the Naos that John must measure? Is this a literal rebuild 3rd temple? And if it is, what are worshipers doing in the Holy of Holies?

:dizzy:

2 Th 2:4 also uses Naos.

by **mark s** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:45 pm

ampersand wrote:3. Is the temple of Judaism a temple of a false religion now that Christ has come?
4. If so, can it really be called the "temple of God?"
5. Therefore, does the temple of the Old Testament have any meaning in the New Testament?

Let's look as some Scriptures and see how this matches up . . .

Acts 2:46 And continuing steadfastly with one mind day by day in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they shared food in gladness and simplicity of heart,

The disciples gathered in the temple. Apparently they did not consider it profane.

Acts 21:26 Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them.

Is this the act of a man who considered the temple to be profane? Completely irrelevant?

Acts 22:17-18
17 And it happened to me, returning to Jerusalem and praying in the temple: I became in an ecstasy,
18 and I saw Him saying to me, Hurry and go out quickly from Jerusalem, because they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.

It doesn't look like God had a problem with Paul being in the temple . . .

These are just some observations, but there is another point as well . . .

Suppose, just suppose, that Paul were wanting to express that there would be a building know as the temple of God, and that in this building, a man would enter, and declare himself to be God.

If we were to suppose that Paul were wanting to express these things . . .

. . . how would he say it?

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **ampersand** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:16 pm

I agree with your analysis completely, Mark. Allow me to clarify that Question 3 does not suggest that anyone (Paul or Peter for instance) preaching in a temple of Judaism considers it sin (a "profane thing.") They would have to preach in the temple in order to reach the Jews, because that is where people gathered. So it was not "irrelevant," in so far that Paul went there to preach, but was "irrelevant" as far as the keeping of ordinances was concerned (especially in the way that Judaism was keeping ordinances - entirely in an anti-God way).

What I mean to say is that Judaism was a false religion (even before Christ had come), and therefore, the temple that the Jews gathered in, was no longer a temple "of God," but their "G-d." Furthermore, on occasion, it had even been turned it into a "den of thieves."

The temple, as a building, was irrelevant to a faith in Christ or even worship, "for where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." To be sure, it is a good thing to have a building wherein believers can gather, but it is not necessary per se to true faith.

So do we agree that when we read "temple of God," it does not necessarily mean a physical temple?

And, I agree with your scenario, Mark, but in order for it to work for a temple of Judaism, then someone declaring himself "as God" would have to be ok with the religion in general, and that is decidedly anti-Judaism. But of course, apostate Jews can reject their Judaism entirely upon the coming of this "man of sin" and therefore would be comfortable accepting him "as God" in their temple. But then we are back to square one: was their temple of Judaism a temple "of God?" :humm:

It is clear from my ramblings above that I don't have this figured out, so I invite us all to work it out. Don't we all want to be the "reader" who "understands" (Matt 24:15) ?

(I want to remind everyone that this discussion is not about whether a temple gets rebuilt, (unless you really want it to be :) ) I'm trying to understand the "abomination of desolation" and whether it happens in a temple "of God' or a temple "of Judaism." and whether that distinction is one that God makes)

(I also want to point out my usage of words: A Jew practicing Judaism is an apostate - an unbeliever. A Jew observing the ordinances of the Law (before Christ) in faith was a believer, and after Christ's finished work and the revelations given through Paul, such a one would cease the observation of the ordinances of the Law, but would continue being a believer. In short, there is faith which believers had/have, and there is Judaism which unbelievers had/have.)

In Christ,
&

Edited to highlight the fact that I was still "working it out" when I wrote most of these posts.

by **mark s** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:48 pm

Hi ampersand,

What is "Judaism", to you? How does it differ with practicing the ordinances of the Law?

You refer to the temple that Paul and Peter visited as being a temple of Judaism, and not a temple of God. What does this mean to you, and how do you substantiate your assertion?

How would you account for the fact that Jesus said . .
. . . that the temple sanctified the gold that was in the temple?
. . . that the altar sanctified the sacrifice that was on the altar?
. . . that Jesus instructed the lepers to offer the sacrifices at that temple which the Law commanded?

What is your foundation in saying that the temple which then stood was not the temple of God?

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:28 pm

[quote="ampersand"]I agree with your analysis completely, Mark. Allow me to clarify that Question 3 does not suggest that anyone (Paul or Peter for instance) preaching in a temple of Judaism considers it sin (a "profane thing.") They would have to preach in the temple in order to reach the Jews, because that is where people gathered.[quote]

Hi ampersand,

To be clear, what I'm saying is that I don't see any evidence that Jesus or the Apostles considered the temple to be a profane thing.

There were many places they could have preached, and there were many places they could have chosen to gather, they chose the temple.

Acts 21 makes clear that Paul intended to make his purification offering in the temple. This does not, in my estimation, portray the sort of view of the temple that you are suggesting.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:34 pm

. . . just in case this question was missed . . .

Suppose, just suppose, that Paul were wanting to express that there would be a building known as the temple of God, and that in this building, a man would enter, and declare himself to be God.

If we were to suppose that Paul were wanting to express these things . . .

. . . how would he say it?

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **ampersand** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:24 pm

I wrote about the false religion of Judaism in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=53739.

I. Believing and unbelieving Jews:

I make the following distinction:

Judaism involves keeping the ordinances of the Law in order to make oneself righteous before a god. The apostle Paul claims that he was such a man - righteous as far as the law goes, but still a blasphemer and unbeliever. A Judaist (?) keeps the ordinances of the Law in unbelief, and is therefore unacceptable to God, and his religion is therefore a false religion, and therefore sin. Simply for the reason that there is "One God, and one faith" and God is to be worshipped in "spirit and in truth." Judaism has many elements that make it appear to be like the way that God established, but at it's core it's not.
On the other hand, we find in Old Testament times, that there has always been a remnant of believers who have kept the ordinances of the Law in faith, waiting for a Redeemer. In short, these believed the full revelation of God as it was given to them. This faithful (faithful, this is the key word)remnant has existed until today.

salvation in the OT and NT is entirely by faith!

false religion

Judaists

call their god by the name "G-d" and claim that he is the same as the God of the Old Testament.

not

He has come!

...For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre...

II. The temple

What God said to Solomon after he built the temple:

1 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do, 2 That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon. 3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel. 6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: 7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people: 8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house? 9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

It is very clear. Now, I understand that after the rebuilding of the temple, there was still that remnant that I wrote about in (2) above. They came to the temple and worshipped God in truth. The religious leaders of the day, however, came to the same temple and did not worship God in truth; they worshipped a god of their own contrivance. Jesus also worshipped in the temple, being born under the Law (Galatians 2). As did the apostles. As did many other believers of the time. Did that make it a temple "of God?" I don't know. It appears to me that for the believer it was a "temple of God," but for the unbeliever it was a "temple of god." We shouldn't in either case discount the word of God to Solomon above. God said He would leave. That's what happened. So then, in the book of Acts, we see that the early church started gathering elsewhere - in homes for the most part. We continue seeing this throughout the NT. Certainly Paul and Peter preached in the temple - that is where they would have access to many Jews - some believing, some unbelieving. But the temple of the Jews became a place of worship for unbelieving Jews. It became a temple to their false god.
We also see Stephen's sermon before the religious court of the day:

44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; 46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 ¶Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

I think that nothing needs to be added here. It's all abundantly clear that they had rejected God. It's interesting that Stephen mentions that God does not dwell in a physical temple, and then immediately tells the unbelieving Pharisees who they really were. Nothing to add here.

III. Conclusion. Why does it matter?

G

I humbly admit that I don't have most of it figured out (I am just scratching the surface), but I am trusting God.

Let's learn together!

edited to highlight the fact that I don't think I have everything figured out, and I am still learning. These posts are a glimpse of the "journey" I have taken w/ this text in II Thessalonians.

by **ampersand** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:28 pm

mark s wrote:. . . just in case this question was missed . . .

Suppose, just suppose, that Paul were wanting to express that there would be a building known as the temple of God, and that in this building, a man would enter, and declare himself to be God.

If we were to suppose that Paul were wanting to express these things . . .

. . . how would he say it?

Love in Christ,
Mark

just the way you said it.

by **ampersand** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:44 pm

An example of the false religiosity of Judaism in the OT as well as a mention of the true believer, who is contrite in spirit. Ends with the promise of a remnant of believers in the midst of the false religion:

Isaiah 57:
1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. 2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. 3 ¶But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore. 4 Against whom do ye sport yourselves? against whom make ye a wide mouth, and draw out the tongue? are ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood, 5 Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks? 6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these? 7 Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice. 8 Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. 9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. 10 Thou art wearied in the greatness of thy way; yet saidst thou not, There is no hope: thou hast found the life of thine hand; therefore thou wast not grieved. 11 And of whom hast thou been afraid or feared, that thou hast lied, and hast not remembered me, nor laid it to thy heart? have not I held my peace even of old, and thou fearest me not? 12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee. 13 ¶When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain; 14 And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people. 15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. 16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. 17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him. 20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. 21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
Isaiah 58:
1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. 2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. 3 ¶Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 ¶Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. 9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; 10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: 11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. 13 ¶If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah 59:
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. 3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. 4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. 5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper. 6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands. 7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. 8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace. 9 ¶Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. 10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. 11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. 12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; 13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. 15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. 16 ¶And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. 20 ¶And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

by **Mrs. B** on Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:45 pm

He as God sitteth in the Temple of God....(Satan)

It is Satan's desire to be seated in the Temple of God...
how can satan be seated into the Temple of God?

Isaiah 14:12....How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13....For thou hast said in thine heart,
I Will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I WILL SIT ALSO UPON THE MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION, IN THE SIDES OF THE NORTH....I will sit also upon the Mount of the congregation,in the Sides of the North:
14....I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be Like the Most High....
15...Yet thou shall be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit...

It is Satan's plan to exalt himself above the stars of heaven.......to take Jesus Place....

How can He take the Place of Jesus....?????

Notice this....
I Corth 6:19.....WHAT? know ye not that your body is the TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GHOST
which is in you, which ye have of God, and Ye Are Not Your Own?
20....For ye are bought with a Price:
therefore Glorify God in your Body, and in Your Spirit which are God's....

II Corin. 6:15.....And what concord hath Christ with Belial?
or what Part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16....And what agreement hath the TEMPLE OF GOD WITH IDOLS?
for ye are the TEMPLE OF THE LIVING GOD;
As God hath said,
I Will Dwell in them, and walk in them;
and I will be their God,
and they Shall be My People.

17....Wherefore Come Out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord,
and touch not the unclean thing;
and I will receive you,
18...And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My Sons and Daughters, saith the Lord....

also
I Corth 3:16....KNOW YE NOT that ye are the TEMPLE OF GOD.....and that the Spirit of God Dwelleth in you?
17....If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God Destroy;
for the TEMPLE OF GOD IS HOLY, WHICH TEMPLE YE ARE....

Jesus bought us with His Own Blood.....
He assended into Heaven and presented His Blood at the Holiest of Holiest in Heaven
then came back to earth....
and Told His Disciples to go to Jerusalem and Wait for the Promise of the Father...
The Promise of the Holy Spirit.....that He Jesus bought with His Own Blood..... bought back on the cross...
what Adam lost at the Garden....Jesus Bought it with His Blood...the Spirit of Life, the Spirit of Truth
His Holy spirit.....and has poured it out upon the Church the True Believers the Tempel.......The Tempel our Bodies Where the Holy Spirit lives......Christ in you the Hope of Glory.......

Satan's plan is to deceive the church and take over the Body of Christ by Deception....
by false doctrine and false believeing.......
that is why Jesus warned us again not to be deceived...
Jesus said if it were possible even the Very Elect would be deceived....

Satan....the a/c spirit....plans to take over the church by false teaching, preaching, prophecy, and signs....and believing...
by the body Temple.....a fleshly tempel....

come out from among her saith the Lord and be ye seperate....
Rev. 18:4....And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come Out of Her, My People, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues...
5....for her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities...

There is Religious Babylon and the World goverment Babylon....and God is calling us out....
8...Therefore shall her plagues come on one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her....

How can God's people be in the a/c system except it be by deception....Hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church...
we are in the world but WE ARE not of the world......

We are the Body of Christ....The Holy Tempe;...our bodies....where the Holy Spirit Lives.....The Promise of the Father..
The Spirit of Truth will Keep us......The True Tempel
This is how the church can be deceived.......by no seeking Truth.....by just church membership and not a relationship with Jesus the Christ.....

I John 2:18.....Little Childrien, it is the last time:
and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, ....even now are there many antichrists;
whereby we know that it is the last time...

19...They went out from us.....but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us....

20....BUT Ye Have An Unction from the Holy One, and Ye Know All things...

You see...God has given us His Holy Spirit.......
And His Spirit will Lead us and Guide us Into ALL Truth...The Holy Spirit bares witness with the Word...
The Word and the Spirit agree.....

Mrs. B

by **brandon** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:19 am

Both Ezekiel and Daniel, which provided Paul with his foundation for a deeper explanation of the events around Christ's return, clearly reference a literal Jewish temple. Ezekiel explains in depth the size of the Third Temple that the Gentiles defile, the new ceremonies, etc. It also mentions that the Christ will, in fact, physically rule in this temple and he will enter the temple through the east gate.

After 70 AD and the Diaspora, Christians had no literal temple with which to use as their interpretation of prophecy. Within a few hundred years, many alternative views of scripture came out. Some believed that much of the prophetic was fulfilled in AD 70, and that the church was now ruling on earth. Some believed that prophetic writings were allegorical (especially as Hellenistic thought impacted parts of Christianity). Flash forward to the reformation, where after 1400+ years of no Israel and no temple, the dominant view was the Historical view, which viewed prophecy as a broad overview of history, ending at Christ's return.

Now look what we have. Israel, after being rejected by God and exiled for almost 1900 years, has been restored to most of their physical land. In 1967 they reclaimed Jerusalem. And ever since, there's been a push for a third temple being erected!

The need to allegorize prophetic scriptures, at this place history, is less and less relevant when one simply looks at the facts on the ground. Allegories are always trumped by the literal facts, which weigh greater and greater towards the restoration of a third physical temple. We know from the Old Testament prophecies, as well as New Testament prophecies, that the man of sin is a literal, physical man. He is going to have a literal, physical army at his disposal. If Paul says that the literal man of sin is going to stand in the temple of God, and we're talking before 70 AD, the only logical interpretation is that Paul means exactly what he says. No allegories, or mystical interpretations necessary here.

When we examine scripture, from Old Testament prophecy to Jesus' prophetic statements, to Paul's detailed explanations, all the way to John's revelation from the Lord Himself, we see continuity in the concept of literalness, One thing that these men all knew is the physical temple in Jerusalem, and the heavenly temple of God.

We have a tendency, because some gnostic thought made its way into the Christian faith over time as the Jewishness of the faith waned after the first century, to overspiritualize. We think that Paul meant everything in some super-spiritual mannerism, when in fact he was being very literal. Look at what Paul teaches concerning our future. He says we're getting another physical body, even thought it's going to be perfect, sinless, and capable of far more than our current ones are. Jesus was resurrected, not in spiritual form, but in physical form. So our new bodies will also be physical.

by **Mrs. B** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:19 am

He as God Sitteth in the Temple of God.....

Paul teaches that we are the Tempel....

The Body of Christ....the Church this is where the Holy Spirit dwells....In the Believer

Jesus fulfilled all the Law and the Prophets....We Now have a New Covenant

the old has passed away.......

Jesus is now seated in the Heavenly Tempel at the Right Hand of God....Making intercession for us the Believer...

Mrs. B

by **lambslave** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:41 am

ampersand, What an excellent job you are doing. I see one who is like-minded. May I ask you, have you ever noticed that in 2 Thess 2:4 the Gk says: " ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν του̂ θεου̂ καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός."
2 Th 2:4 LIT: "so as to seat himself into the temple of God declaring himself that God is himself."
This is of course a case of hoti plus the in infinitive "so as to seat." the weaker choice of the translators, "so that he seats himself" improperly rendering the infinitive "to seat" (infinitive) into "he seats " (active). By making this slight re-adjustment we have a whole generation of those who argue for the rebuilding of the temple, not weighing the evidence of Eph 2:19-22, etc, etc, etc. (Make no mistake here, I am a pre-millenialist, and definitely post-trib, but not a dispensationalist.)

Black, Matthew ; Martini, Carlo M. ; Metzger, Bruce M. ; Wikgren, Allen: The Greek New Testament. electronic ed. of the 3rd ed. (Corrected). Federal Republic of Germany : United Bible Societies, 1983; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996, S.

lamblslave

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:58 am

Thanks brandon, lambslave and Mrs. B for adding to the discussion. I want to make the following clear about where I stand at the moment (things may change as I learn more). I am new to this, and the thing I am most afraid of is believing what another man says. I only read the Scripture to see what God says. I don't look for interpretation outside of Scripture.

I am NOT arguing against a literal rebuilding of the temple. I actually think it will be rebuilt, but I am starting to think that what is written to the Thessalonians is not meant to support that view.
I AM arguing that a temple of Judaism is NOT a temple of God, because it is a temple to a false god. I AM trying to understand what that means for this passage in Thess.
I rarely allegorize Scripture or try to include some kind of mystical ideas. I believe in much of Revelation in a literal sense (in fact, I hold that if we believed the things in the "poetic" books more literally, we would be closer to knowing God).
The point is not whether we should allegorize Scripture: the point is: In Thess, does God refer to a physical temple "of God" or not? Did God, as it were, "allegorize" it, based on everything else He said about His "temple" through NT writers? Will the "man of sin" be revealed in a physical temple "of God" or is the problem much deeper?
The point is: are the ideas of a literal rebuilt temple and the revelation of the man of sin in the temple of God mutually exclusive?

in Christ,
&

Edited to highlight the fact that I don't think I have everything figured out, and I am still learning. These posts are a glimpse of the "journey" I have taken w/ this text in II Thessalonians. You have to read the Scriptures for yourself and see if what I wrote is true.

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:43 am

mark s wrote:Either it was, or it was not God's temple.

You're right. I did use a subjective standard in that paragraph that you quoted, but then I clarified that what people did in it shouldn't matter, because God told Solomon that He would leave. Let's forget then how people viewed it...I believe the correct question to be asking/answering is:

With what kind of temple does God associate Himself as opposed to what kind of temple do we associate with God?

God clearly stated that He will cast the house which He hallowed with His Name out of His sight. Do we see Him identifying with the new temple that was built? Do we not see Him identifying with a different "temple" in the NT, namely the temple of the Holy Spirit?

in Christ,
&

by **mark s** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:58 am

ampersand wrote:I am NOT arguing against a literal rebuilding of the temple. I actually think it will be rebuilt, but I am starting to think that what is written to the Thessalonians is not meant to support that view.

Hi ampersand,

I fully agree with you on this point, that the passage in Thessalonians is not written to tell us that there will be a temple. But it does presuppose that there will be a temple.

The real question comes in whether one sees this "sitting" as allegorical or literal, and therefore whether or not there will be a literal temple or not.

Some say that that this sitting is allegorical, and that the man of sin will sit in the hearts of God's redeemed, declaring himself to be God. I personally have a difficulty with that view, because in God's spiritual temple of His redeemed people, that seat's taken.

I am arguing that a temple of Judaism is NOT a temple of God, because it is a temple to a false god. I AM trying to understand what that means for this passage in Thess.

Consider the implications of this statement.

Let's say that I build a temple to the God of the Bible, the God Who created all things. Now, we know that this temple is not how God tells me to worship Him, and He's given no indication that I would actually find Him there, however, are we saying that I didn't actually build it to the God of the Bible, the God of Creation? I'd argue that with you.

Certainly we can't be saying that the God of the Bible is not the true God!

Let's say I build a house for Holly and Adam. They may have no interest in the house I build for them, they might have told me not to. They may never see it, and think I'm a nut for doing it. However, that does not change the fact that I built if for them, gifted it to them, and that it really is them that I did it for.

So if the Jews build a temple, and they build this temple to the God of the Bible (of course, for them it would be the God of the Old Testament), this is the True God, not a false God, and therefore, this would be a temple of God. It would not be a temple of Dagon, for instance.

I rarely allegorize Scripture or try to include some kind of mystical ideas. I believe in much of Revelation in a literal sense (in fact, I hold that if we believed the things in the "poetic" books more literally, we would be closer to knowing God).

In some ways, yes, I agree, but we do need to recognize genre, and the intent of the passage.

The point is not whether we should allegorize Scripture: the point is: In Thess, does God refer to a physical temple "of God" or not? Did God, as it were, "allegorize" it, based on everything else He said about His "temple" through NT writers? Will the "man of sin" be revealed in a physical temple "of God" or is the problem much deeper?

Considering all that is written concerning a spiritual temple, a physical temple, and an heavenly temple, I think we need to take each passage on its own merits.

My chief objection to interpreting this as the spiritual temple is noted about, not to mention the straightforward reading of this passage.

The point is: are the ideas of a literal rebuilt temple and the revelation of the man of sin in the temple of God mutually exclusive?

On this point, I think that what reveals the man of sin is not revealed in this passage, unless it is by an explicative use of kai, "the apostasia, even the revealing of the man of sin". If this is the correct interpretation, then what reveals the man of sin is the apostasia. Of course, their remains the debate about what that is! :grin:

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Mrs. B** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:17 pm

He as God sitteth in the temple of God....

I'm not a teacher.....nor do I have all the greek language that so many of you have achived too....

but I do know what is written....

I like Stephens Testimoney as they stoned Him to death...
read Acts 7:37-53.

notice in 38....This is he, that was in the church.......notice the church.....in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him (Moses) in the Mount Sina, and with our fathers:
who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39.....To whom our fathers would NOT obey, but thrust him from them, and in their HEARTS turned back again into Egypt (or the world)...

44.....Our fathers had the Tabernacle of Witness in the Wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses,
that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen...

45....Which also Our Fathers that came after brought in with Jesus(or Joshua) into the possession of the Gentiles,
Whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

46...Who found favour before God, and desired to find a Tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

47....But Solomon built him An House.

48....HOWBEIT.....The Most High Dwelleth Not in a TEMPLE MADE WITH HANDS: as saith the Prophet,
49....Heaven is My Throne, and Earth is My Footstool:
What House will ye build me? saith the Lord:
or what is the place of My Rest?
50.....Hath Not My Hand Made All these Things?

51....YE STIFFNECKED AND UNCIRCUMCISED IN HEART and ears, Ye do always resist THE HOLY GHOST:
as your fathers persecuted?
and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of The Just One;
Of whom ye have been the betrayers and murders:
53...Who have received the Law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it....

If a Temple is rebuilt.......this to me could easly be the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus was talking about.
This will cause the Wrath of God to come up in His face.....and we better flee to the Mountains...
cause it will be a time like never before...
But...what if the Church....the Body of Christ....accepts a False Christ....The Antichrist into their hearts and follows him instead of Jesus the Christ, the Only Begotton Son of God.....could this also bring world Judgment?
When you see Armies surrend Jerusalem......then flee out of Judea....cause then will be trouble like never since the beginning of the world.....
Watch and Pray and be ready.....but according to scripture...The Church, the annointed of God is His Temple...He lives in us the Believer....the true believer.....our bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost....

Mrs. B

by **mark s** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:17 pm

How could it be that the Body of Christ would "accept the antichrist into their hearts"?

Where do we see such a thing in Scripture? It seems to me that John speaks directly against such a thought:

1 John 4:1-6
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
2 By this know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
3 And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world.
4 Little children, you are of God and have overcome them, because He in you is greater than he in the world.
5 They are of the world; because of this they speak of the world, and the world hears them.
6 We are of God; the one knowing God hears us. Whoever is not of God does not hear us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:23 pm

Mrs. B" wrote:...
If a Temple is rebuilt.......this to me could easly be the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus was talking about.
...

Mrs. B, while I am not sure whether the actual rebuilding is the AoD, I thoroughly agree that the rebuilding of the temple is not a cause for celebration.

When I hear of Jews building a temple in order to keep the ordinances of the Law, my spirit aches, because I know that the temple will not be used to worship the One True God. It will be used to worship a false god. However, I rejoice, when I remember that God will show them the error of their ways.

...I'm not a teacher.....nor do I have all the greek language that so many of you have achived too....
but I do know what is written....

I know that is absolutely enough for both of us and anyone else, because God promises to reveal Himself to His true believers. Stay faithful to Him! I enjoy reading your thoughts.

And thank you for again pointing us to Stephen's sermon. It is extremely important to all of this.

in Christ,
&

by **Shelby** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:44 pm

Mrs. B wrote:If a Temple is rebuilt.......this to me could easly be the Abomination of Desolation that Jesus was talking about. Mrs. B

Or if a temple is rebuilt...and the anti-christ proclaims himself as God in this man made temple could=Abomination of Desolation

Love your posts, Mrs. B

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:45 pm

mark s wrote:...
On this point, I think that what reveals the man of sin is not revealed in this passage, unless it is by an explicative use of kai, "the apostasia, even the revealing of the man of sin". If this is the correct interpretation, then what reveals the man of sin is the apostasia. Of course, their remains the debate about what that is!
...

I agree with the text (and you) that the apostasy precedes and is immediately (almost concurrently?) followed by the revelation of the "man of sin" in the "temple of God." This makes sense in way because God (through Paul) explains that these "apostates" are perishing, because they "received not the love of the truth" - in short, they rejected God. So the revelation of the "man of sin" in/through them is part and parcel of the rejection of the truth.

Therefore, I also agree with the text (and you) that the "man of sin" has nothing to do with the body of Christ. We need go no further than a couple of sentences down, to see that the revelation of the "man of sin" has everything to do with those who loved NOT the truth, "that they might be saved." Those who are saved are saved through the sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. That's what sets them apart from the apostates.

2 Thess 2 wrote:II Thessalonians 2:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be d&mned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

in Christ,
&

by **mark s** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:10 pm

ampersand wrote:
mark s wrote:...
On this point, I think that what reveals the man of sin is not revealed in this passage, unless it is by an explicative use of kai, "the apostasia, even the revealing of the man of sin". If this is the correct interpretation, then what reveals the man of sin is the apostasia. Of course, their remains the debate about what that is!
...

I agree with the text (and you) that the apostasy precedes and is immediately (almost concurrently?) followed by the revelation of the "man of sin" in the "temple of God."

To be clear, I'm not saying that this connect is made in the text, rather, that it is possibly being made, depending on whether or not you see "kai" used here in a copulative or explicative meaning. Either it is naming two separate things, the apostasia, and the revealing, or it is speaking of one thing, the apostasia, which is also the revealing.

If they are two separate things, and this would be the most common usage of kai, then there is nothing saying whether they are temporally near or far in relation to each other.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:35 pm

After reading the text to the Thessalonians again, I am starting to realize the following:

The "man of sin" is not characterized by the fact that he sits in the temple of God, but by the fact that he exalts himself above everything that is called God and worshiped. In this way, he is "showing himself that he is God." Note, he is not "showing that he is God", but he is showing "himself that he is God."
God (the One True God) sits in the temple of God (in the believer by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit). The man of sin does not take God's place; rather he as "God sitteth in the the temple of God."
What is important about the "day of the Lord" in this passage? That it comes after the "man of sin" exalts himself above everything that is called God. The "man of sin" has been as "God sitteth in the temple of God", as it were, for quite some time, "for the mystery of inqiuity doth already work," but the day of the Lord will come after the "man of sin" is revealed in the apostasy.
I think I understand what you are saying, Mark, but here (as in any of Paul's other letters) everything in the text must fit together. Doesn't God (through Paul) want the Thessalonians (and us) to understand the letter?

I'll keep reading and praying....

in Christ,
&

Edited to correct a huge mistake in wording. The original can be seen in a post farther down in this thread. The person who pointed out my error is correct.

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:08 pm

Some more food for your spirit...

God's Word wrote:1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Corinthians 6:16-17 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Corinthians sure got a lot of teaching about the temple of God.

&

by **mark s** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:11 pm

ampersand wrote:[*] What is important about the "day of the Lord" in this passage? That it comes after the "man of sin" exalts himself above everything that is called God. The "man of sin" has been in the temple, as it were, for quite some time, "for the mystery of inqiuity doth already work," but the day of the Lord will come after the "man of sin" is revealed in the apostasy.

I don't think this is what that passage is saying . . .

Where is "sitting in the temple" made equal to "the secret working of iniquity"?

I'd say that the text says it is after the man of sin is revealed, and after the apostasia that "that day" comes.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:20 pm

ampersand wrote: In this way, he is "showing himself that he is God." Note, he is not "showing that he is God", but he is showing "himself that he is God."

Are you suggesting that this man of sin is, as it were, making a demonstration to himself that he is God?

That's not what's being said here.

I'm quoting a few different translations below that I think more readily show what Paul is saying:

(ALT) t with the result that he sits down in the sanctuary of God as God, displaying himself that he is God.

(AMP) [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.

(ASV) he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

(LITV) so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2

(NASB) so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, (14) displaying himself as being God.

(NET) and as a result he takes his seat in God's temple, displaying himself as God.

(YLT) so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God

The key difference is that in "demonstrating himself as God", "himself" is in the Accusative, which is the way the verse is written. If it were saying, "demonstrating to himself", "himself would be in the Dative, which it is not.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:40 pm

mark s wrote:
ampersand wrote: In this way, he is "showing himself that he is God." Note, he is not "showing that he is God", but he is showing "himself that he is God."

Are you suggesting that this man of sin is, as it were, making a demonstration to himself that he is God?

Love in Christ,
Mark

No, I was not suggesting that he was demonstrating to himself that he is God. I should have appended an explanation to my sentence, but I think you've done a good job of showing what it means.

&

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:34 pm

mark s wrote:
ampersand wrote:[*] What is important about the "day of the Lord" in this passage? That it comes after the "man of sin" exalts himself above everything that is called God. The "man of sin" has been in the temple, as it were, for quite some time, "for the mystery of inqiuity doth already work," but the day of the Lord will come after the "man of sin" is revealed in the apostasy.

I don't think this is what that passage is saying . . .

Where is "sitting in the temple" made equal to "the secret working of iniquity"?

I'd say that the text says it is after the man of sin is revealed, and after the apostasia that "that day" comes.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Isn't that what I am saying, too?!

...now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed...

The text speaks for itself, but I will venture to try to show what I am reading:

He is not revealed "in his time," (i.e. in the time that he is already functioning, i.e. by exalting himself above God and therefore by being "as God sitteth in the temple of God."), because of the hindrance of a "he who now letteth" (I'm not sure about what this means yet). The mystery of iniquity (which must refer right back to the end of the preceding sentence) is already active and functioning (i.e. the "man of sin" is already active), but it will be revealed by the apostasia.

The day of the Lord comes after all of these events. Paul does not write that it comes immediately after these events, but he DOES say that the "day" will NOT come before...that is, if you have not seen this happen, then the "day" has not come yet. Paul is assuring the Thessalonians that the day had not yet come by showing them that at least these things shall happen.

That's what I am reading here.

in Christ,
&

by **watching** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:20 pm

Hi ampersand,

My views on 2 Thessalonians 2 have evolved somewhat, also, as I have come to understand more and more, and may continue to evolve as well.

Nevertheless, I have posted what I feel I have come to understand on this issue on other threads, so I will just copy one of my latest entries.

Let me know what you think.

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. **see comments below**

*emphasis and color coding mine ***2 Thessalonians 2 continued below***

**This part is important**

Here are verses 6 and 7 in the Greek:

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

6και νυν το κατεχον οιδατε εις το αποκαλυφθηναι αυτον εν τω εαυτου καιρω

7το γαρ μυστηριον ηδη ενεργειται της ανομιας μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται

A more literal translation of the above would be:

6και νυν and now το κατεχον that which holds οιδατε you saw (know) εις το αποκαλυφθηναι αυτον to the revealing of himself εν τω εαυτου καιρω in his own time

7το γαρ μυστηριον for the mystery ηδη ενεργειται is already at work της ανομιας of iniquity μονον ο κατεχων only he who holds αρτι now (see G737) [will do so?] εως εκ μεσου γενηται until out of/from the middle he becomes, i.e. come into existence (see G1096)

G1096 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 1096&t=KJV
G737 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... t=KJV&sf=4
2 Thessalonians 2 http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... &t=KJV#top

***2 Thessalonians 2 (continued)***

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

If you don't understand what my point is, please let me know and I'll try to explain it.

by **ampersand** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:47 pm

Hi watching,

I don't know the Greek, so if you give me just a literal word translation, I could make 10 different sentences out of it, not knowing the grammar. That's why I trust the translations that I have (English and the one in my mother tongue) and God's Spirit to help me understand. Perhaps you could incorporate the necessary Greek grammar to make the words into coherent sentences?

I guess I'm not really sure about what you're trying to say.

in Christ,
&

by **watching** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:56 pm

Hi ampersand,

I happen to be Greek, so I know the language pretty well.

What is your mother tongue?

by **watching** on Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:36 pm

Oh, I almost forgot to answer your question.

watching wrote:A more literal translation of the above would be:

6και νυν and now το κατεχον that which holds οιδατε you saw (know) εις το αποκαλυφθηναι αυτον to the revealing of himself εν τω εαυτου καιρω in his own time

7το γαρ μυστηριον for the mystery ηδη ενεργειται is already at work της ανομιας of iniquity μονον ο κατεχων only he who holds αρτι now (see G737) [will do so?] εως εκ μεσου γενηται until out of/from the middle he becomes, i.e. come into existence (see G1096)

Here, I'll just leave out the Greek:

6And now that which holds you saw (perceived) unto the revealing of himself in his own time.

7For the mystery is already at work of iniquity only he who holds now will do so until out of/from the middle he becomes, i.e. comes into existence.

Now do you understand what I'm trying to say.

This is also the reason for the color coding that I added to 2 Thessalonians 2 above, in order to show how these two seem to go hand in hand, or so it appears, to me, anyway.

except there come a falling away first / and that man of sin be revealed,
And now ye know what withholdeth / that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: / only he who now holds will do so until out of the middle he becomes

In other words, the blue seems to correspond with what holds, and the purple seems to correspond with who holds.
At least that's what seems to make sense to me.

Does this make any sense to you?

by **watching** on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:14 am

Hi ampersand,

If you're still having trouble understanding my translation of verses 6 and 7, it would basically be translated exactly as it was in the King James Version, except for the phrase "until he be taken out of the way." The word "taken" is nowhere to be found in the original translation. The literal translation reads, "until out of the middle he becomes."

The word meaning "becomes" in the Greek is "γενηται." Here is the Strong's definition (G1096): http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV

by **brandon** on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:58 am

Listen folks, we need to make an important observation to the fact that in Paul's day, there were two temples considered to be "temples of God".

The first, and most obvious one is the temple of the Jews, still in practice although its sacrifices and "way of doing business" no longer accepted by God. The second one, the result of God's new way of doing business with man, is the Church. In Paul's writings, he talks about both.

The introduction of God's redeemed people being His new temple is a strictly Christian theology, and at the time was very new. For us the only temple we known in fact is us, as Christ's people. In Paul's day the temple most people knew was the temple of the Jews. This same temple played an important part in the early church as well. Jesus predicted its eventual destruction before his crucifixion, mentioning the abomination of desolation detailed in Daniel.

It is this same event that Daniel detailed, and Jesus gave further knowledge of, is what Paul is detailing. The majority of prophetic scriptures refer to a physical temple. The Greek in Paul's description is honestly nearly irrelevant. Either 2nd Thessalonians 2 is rewriting every aspect of prophecy as we know it, and even changing the clearly intended meanings of Daniel's and Jesus' prophecies concerning the end times.

Paul knows two temples. He's talking about the Jewish temple here, not Christ's people as the Spirit's temple.

by **watching** on Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:12 am

Hi brandon,

brandon wrote:It is this same event that Daniel detailed, and Jesus gave further knowledge of, is what Paul is detailing. The majority of prophetic scriptures refer to a physical temple. The Greek in Paul's description is honestly nearly irrelevant. Either 2nd Thessalonians 2 is rewriting every aspect of prophecy as we know it, and even changing the clearly intended meanings of Daniel's and Jesus' prophecies concerning the end times.

Where do you see the word temple in the book of Daniel? Just asking.

by **CaryC** on Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:35 am

Hey,

Just some thoughts:

First I'm not sure I totally understand the question/thought/discussion. If this is about whether the "temple of God" is a ....say....spiritual/heart thing, or whether it is a physical location with a postal address then consider the following, if not forget it.

If you follow the thought that Satan/AC sets himself up in the hearts of men, as God, then there is nothing "new" about this. Consider Cain, Nimrod, King Saul, Judas, and the list goes on to the present day in the hearts of men in the White House (whoever they are) and in mega churches, whether they be Christian, Islam, Wiccan, Pagan, or Druids.

If you take the point that it must be a particular man that is in the hearts of men, that too has already been done with Hilter, Stalin, etc....Jim Jones, Moon, just to name a couple, and there is nothing new about that.

The reason I mention the above is to compare with what Paul is saying will be a "sign" in so much as a particular event (The Day of the Lord) will not happen until you see these other things happening. This will be new, this will be something by which people will be able to gage whether or not something else is happening or about to happen. In other words because of "this" then "this and this".

I would dare say that we are unable to see, in truth, whether or not someone is sitting in someone else's throne/temple so as to be able to gage whether or not "The Day of Lord" is at hand.

The physical event that Paul mentions in II Thess. has never happen before. Granted an AoD has happened, of which Daniel foretold, and even Jesus alludes to in Matthew 24, however that event was of a statue of Zeus, and not a live/living/breathing human being. Therefore it can be used as a gage, people any and all can, but probably only Christians will, be able to point to it and say the Day of The Lord is at hand. Even unbelievers will be able to see it, and have an opportunity to repent but most, if not all, won't. They will still shake their fist at God.

Just because an event is foretold does not mean, that it will have any religious significance to Christians. He could of easily used any event--when you see St. Peters Basilica, or the Munster in Ulm, Germany, as the place of religious happenings destroyed, then the Day of the Lord is at hand. Those places have no meaning to Christians.

Then you also have to consider Ezekiel's Temple in Eze. 40+ which for all intents and purposes appears to be a literal temple. Whether that is the 3rd Temple as Jews perceive it to be, and are looking at to be the next Temple, or whether it is the something that comes later, it is a literal Temple with measured sides, etc....

If the Jews do build that Temple it will be considered as the Temple of God, because He gave instructions on how it was to be built. As compared to Herod's Temple which He did not.

2 cents.

by **watching** on Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:54 am

Hi CaryC,

I agree that it does appear that the AOD will be a visible physical event that will occur in the future. I'm just not sure it there will actually be a humanly rebuilt Jewish temple on the Temple Mount or not when it happens.

But what I think we must keep in mind, is that whatever the AOD will be, it will not just be an abomination (which some may argue that there is already an abomination on the Temple Mount) but an abomination of desolation.

Whatever the AOD may be, it will cause people to flee to the mountains, or at least it will for those who heed the warning of our Lord, Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24 (King James Version)

Matthew 24

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

by **ampersand** on Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:51 pm

Hi friends,

Let's forget for the moment about who we think the "man of sin" is and what we think the "temple of God" is.
Consider the following: the phrase "He as God sitteth in the temple of God," from a purely grammatical perspective, can be read in the following two ways:

He as {God sitteth in the temple of God}.
In this case, the phrase enclosed by {} corresponds to a subordinate clause that describes the subject and as acts as the linking verb....in the sense: A as B. OR A is like B. (I realize that as is not a verb in our language, but I am making the case that the sentence could be understood this way.)
He <-{as God} sitteth <-{in the temple of God}.
In this case {as God} modifies the subject, sitteth is the active verb of the subject, and {in the temple of God} is a prepositional phrase modifying the verb.

Questions/comments:

Would any of you agree that it is possible to read it these two ways (without adding any interpretation for the moment)?
Are there other ways of reading it?
For the Koine scholars among us, could you take a look at the text in the Koine and see if it is possible to state with 100% certainty which reading is the correct one? This would entail not just looking at the words, but the whole sentence structure in the context of the grammar. So, a word-for-word translation won't cut it; the necessary grammar needs to be incorporated.
Am I seeing correctly that "opposeth", "exalteth", "sitteth", and "shewing" are all in the present tense in verse 4?

Thanks much in advance!

Please forgive me if I have used the incorrect English terms to describe the grammar, as it's been a while since I've diagrammed a sentence.

&

by **Mrs. B** on Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:49 pm

He as God sitteth in the temple of God......

Jesus said...
Matt 10:19......But when they deliver you up,
take no though how or what ye shall speak:
for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak...

20....For it is not Ye that Speak....But the Spirit of Your Father which speaketh in you.....

22....And ye shall be hated of all men for My Names's sake:
but he that endureth to the end shall be saved....

St. John 15:26.....But when the Comforter is come, Whom I will send unto you from the Father,
even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father....He Shall Testify of Me:

If Our Bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.....
Then all true believers will Speak the Truth......The Holy Spirit will Testify of Jesus...

BUT......Jesus warn again and again about not being deceived......
He warned His followers not to be deceived by false teaching.....by lies of the devil...
if the devil can get into the church......teach another doctrine.....teach another Jesus....another Christ
causing believers to be deceived....believe lies....and follow another Jesus.....

Jesus said...
St. John 16:8....And when he (the spirit of truth) is come, he will Reprove the world of sin, and of righteouness, and of Judgment:

9...Of Sin, because they believe not on me;
10...Of righteousness, Because I go to My Father, and ye see me no more;
11...Of Judgment, because the Prince of this World is Judged...(that is satan)

12.....I have ye many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now...
13....HOWBEIT When He, The Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into ALL Truth:
for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.

14....He Shall Glorify Me:
for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you...

15...All things that the Father hath are mine:
Therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall shew it unto you

the Holy Spirit will give revelation Knowledge to those who are His....

You see...
We the true Believers have the Holy Spirit living in us....Leading us into all Truth....God's word is Truth
and the ministery of the Holy Spirit is to Glorify Jesus in the Church the Body of Christ...

If a believer..... is glorifying himself, his church, his doctrine and not Jesus then he is false.... deceiving and being deceived...
The True Believer Glorifies Jesus.......no man....no doctrine....not himself....not even the church (we are the church)

this is why Jesus warn about false teachers and leaders in the church deceiving if possible the very elect....
this is the a/c spirit in the church......declaring himself as god....a false god....a false Chrsit
Now there will be a men who will take this possition...and now do

but it is impossible for him to do this
except there is a Falling Away from the Truth.....
Teaching mans doctrine for the doctrine of Christ
and many many will follow these falses teachers....

but praise the Lord...
Jesus said when the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead us and guide us into.....all truth
We Must Walk in Truth.....Thy word is Truth...and the Spirit of Truth

The devil tempted Jesus and said Bow down and worship me and I will give you the Kingdoms of all the world.
This was a temptation...satan is the god of this world.....
and many preachers have bowed down and lead many astray.....just by changing the word a little bit....they sold there souls for this worlds goods.
Jesus said.....Love not the world nor the things of the world.....for all that is in the world...the lust of the flesh...the
lust of the eyes and the pride of lfe....they are of the world....
This world is not our home we are passing through.....we must take up our cross and follow Him...Follow Jesus The Christ the only begotton of the Father.....
don't be deceived..

This is how the devil is working today but Our Heavenly Father is calling us out.....Follow Jesus
Jesus is the Head of the Church.....The Body of Christ....not man

When you see the AoD stand in the Holy Place.....(the Body of Christ????)
He as God sitteth in the temple of God......the body of Christ.....then know that the desolation is neigh...
Our sins are full....

Daniel 8:13b....How long shall be the vision conderning the daily sacrifice,?
and the Transgression of desolation?
to give both the sanctuary ( the tempel?) and the host to be trodden under foot?
14....And he said unto me, Unto twothousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.....

Daniel 8:15....And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and SOUGHT for the Meaning, then, Behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16....And I heard a Man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said...
GABRIEL....MAKE THIS MAN TO UNDERSTAND THE VISION....

17.....SO He Came near where I stood:
and when He came, I was afraid, and fell upon My Face:
But he said unto me....UNDERSTAND, O Son of man:
for the time of the End shall be the Vision....
Notice at the time of the End......The angel gives Daniel the Understanding...

Jesus said...Matt 24:15.....When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place.....(whoso readeth, let him understand)

23....And in the latter Time of their Kingdom (is this the Church Kingdom? yes)
When the Transgressors are come to the Full.....(when Our sins are full...when we are following another christ)
a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.....(this is the A/c that has dark understanding...evil)this is the falling away.....
but he cannot come until our sins are full....till the church turns away from the True Christ...and they follow a false christ)

24.....And his power shall be mighty...but not by his power: (the a/c is satan)
and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the Mighty and the HOLY People (or people of the Holy Ones)......

25.....And through his policy also he shall cause Craft to Prosper in his hand; (this is where the mark of the beast comes in....with out the mark you cannot buy or sale....he will control the world for three and 1/2 years....)
and he shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of Princes;
but he shall be broken without hand...(Jesus shall destroy him by the word of his mouth)
(He will be here when Jesus comes Back....this is what Paul is writting in II Thess 2...

II Thes 2:9....Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with All Power and Signs and LYING Wondrs,
10...And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish:
Because they Received Not the Love of the Truth, that they might be Saved...

Now notice...
11....And for this cause God Shall send them Strong Delusions, that they should believe a lie: (is this the Church?)
12....That they all might be ****** who believed not the Truth....But have pleasure in unrighteousness...

13....But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, Brethren Beloved of the Lord....
Because God hath from the Beginning Chosen you to Salvation....Through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT.....
AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH....

Glory.....
Mrs. B

by **watching** on Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:23 pm

Hi ampersand,

I am not a Greek scholar, but here is how I would translate verses 3 and 4, based on my limited knowledge, fwiw. Here are the verses for reference:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (King James Version)

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

3μη τις υμας εξαπατηση κατα μηδενα τροπον οτι εαν μη ελθη η αποστασια πρωτον και αποκαλυφθη ο ανθρωπος της αμαρτιας ο υιος της απωλειας

4ο αντικειμενος και υπεραιρομενος επι παντα λεγομενον θεον η σεβασμα ωστε αυτον εις τον ναον του θεου ως θεον καθισαι αποδεικνυντα εαυτον οτι εστιν θεος

Here is my translation:

3μη τις υμας εξαπατηση κατα μηδενα τροπον let no one deceive you by any means οτι εαν μη ελθη η αποστασια πρωτον that if not come the apostasy first και αποκαλυφθη ο ανθρωπος της αμαρτιας and be revealed the man of sin ο υιος της απωλειας the son of perdition

4ο αντικειμενος the one who opposes
και υπεραιρομενος and lifted of himself up over/self-exalted επι παντα over everything λεγομενον called θεον of God η σεβασμα or that which is to be worshiped ωστε αυτον so that he εις τον ναον in the temple
του θεου of God ως θεον as God καθισαι sat (past tense) αποδεικνυντα while showing/exhibiting εαυτον himself οτι εστιν θεος that he is God

Now I'll leave out the Greek to see what it sounds like:

Let no one deceive you by any means that if not come the apostasy first and be revealed the man of sin the son of perdition.

The one who opposes and [is] self exalted above everything called of God [said to be of God] or that is to be worshiped so that he in the temple of God as God sat while showing himself that he is God.

So, it's pretty much exactly the way it was translated in the King James version, except [that day shall not come] was added in by the translators.

That's my take, anyway, for what it's worth, but I'm more than open to correction because, obviously, I could be wrong since I'm am definitely not an expert.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#top

edit: added [said to be of God] above for clarity

by **ampersand** on Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:43 pm

Thanks for your post, watching! I have a question, though: I see the words and the basic concepts expressed in the Greek, but is there any way to know which verb goes with which subject and what modifies what?

It's probably unnecessary to go to such great lengths to understand this, b/c not everyone has access/understanding of the Greek...I just wanted to know how it fits in with the two possible readings that I suggested in my earlier post. Also, are all of the verb tenses in the present tense?

Peace in Christ,
&

by **watching** on Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:56 am

Hi ampersand,

As I said before I am not a scholar, but it seems to me that verses 3 and 4 would be in the imperative mood, since it is a command, so to speak. The word sat, however, is in the past tense. I don't know why. :dunno:

If I'm understanding your question correctly, concerning "he as God sitteth," I take it to mean that "he sitteth as if he is God," not that "he sitteth in the same manner as God."

As for your earlier question above, concerning "shewing himself that he is God," the word translated as shewing is αποδεικνυντα in the Greek, which basically means to point out. Here is the Blue Letter Bible definition: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G584&t=KJV

So, basically it could have been translated this way: "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, pointing himself out that he is God." It doesn't say that he is pointing himself out, to himself, that he is God, but simply that he is pointing himself out as God. That's how I understand it, anyway.

But as I said before, I am certainly not an expert, so I welcome anyone else to chime in as well with their understanding.

by **watching** on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:41 pm

Hi ampersand,

ampersand wrote:Am I seeing correctly that "opposeth", "exalteth", "sitteth", and "shewing" are all in the present tense in verse 4?

I'm sorry, I didn't notice this part of your question before. It's a hard one to answer, but I'll try to do my best based on the little that I know, and despite the fact that I don't know all the grammatical terms for everything.

The word translated as "opposeth" is ο (the) αντικειμενος (phonetically: antikimenos), and it is basically descriptive, in the sense that it is describing him as the one being in opposition.

The word translated as "exalteth" is υπεραιρομενος (eepereromenos), and it is also used in a descriptive sense, basically describing him as one who exalts himself.

Both of these terms imply an ongoing state or condition, not a singular incident that occurred in the past or will occur in the future.

The word translated as "sitteth" is καθισαι (kathise), this is strictly past tense. If it were describing an ongoing condition such the two above, it would have had the same ending as the other two above, and would therefore be pronounced (kathismenos). And in the English it would have been translated as "seated." edit: If "sitteth" were in the present tense, it would have been pronounced (kathete).

The word translated as "shewing" is αποδεικνυντα (apodeekninta), and it is, sort of, present tense also, as the first two sort of are, but I think, more precisely, it should be "while showing" based on it's ending, rather than just "showing." That's what I think, anyway, but I'm not 100% sure about any of this, because as I said before, I am not an expert, I'm just going by what it sounds like to me .

So, anyone, please feel free to double check my answers and correct me if I'm wrong.

by **ampersand** on Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:02 pm

Watching, thank you very much for both of your commentaries. Don't worry about "not being an expert";the things of God are understood by anyone who trusts the Spirit of God for understanding(..."the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.").

What you have written has confirmed that the English translation is indeed correct, except for "sitteth" which you state is strictly past tense in the Greek. In any case, I don't think this discrepancy should cause anyone to stumble if they read the rest of the text in context.

in Christ,
&

by **ampersand** on Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:39 pm

watching wrote:...
But what I think we must keep in mind, is that whatever the AOD will be, it will not just be an abomination (which some may argue that there is already an abomination on the Temple Mount) but an abomination of desolation.

Whatever the AOD may be, it will cause people to flee to the mountains, or at least it will for those who heed the warning of our Lord, Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:
...

Hi watching,
The Abomination of Desolation is so called because it's the abomination that causes desolation. It's an abomination that necessitates or is the direct cause of desolation. So, the people of Judea would need to flee to the mountains after they see the abomination in order to not be part of the desolation that is sure to follow.

Do you agree?

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by **watching** on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:46 am

Hi ampersand,

That seems to be the implication, but the text doesn't specifically say that it is an "abomination that causes desolation", it just says "abomination of desolation. So I wouldn't want to read more into it, than what was actually written in the text. But, once again, it doesn't just say "abomination," nor does it just say "desolation." So, I agree, that it does appear that it will be the two together that will cause (serve as a warning for) people to flee to the mountains. That's how I see it, anyway.

edit: By the way, I checked the Greek to make sure it was written that way in the Greek and it was:

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 24:15 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

15οταν ουν ιδητε το βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως το ρηθεν δια δανιηλ του προφητου εστος εν τοπω αγιω ο αναγινωσκων νοειτω

βδελυγμα (abomination) της (of) ερημωσεως (desolation)

second edit: I just wanted to clarify that I'm not saying that it will be two separate events, just that it will, apparently, have both characteristics.

I realize, I'm being rather technical, at this point, but I'm just trying to be careful not to misinterpret anything.

by **ampersand** on Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:09 pm

Not getting into what the abomination is and what the desolation is, Jesus refers the listeners to the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. So you're right, it's difficult to tell from Jesus' words, and I used what Daniel wrote to come to that conclusion:

Daniel the prophet of God wrote:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

11:31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

A straightforward reading of the text points to the desolations occurring because of abominations. No?

At the moment I am just reading what Daniel and Jesus said without trying to fit it to a particular end-times theory. Just reading the text and observing.

(the new reader may notice we've gotten off track a little from Thessalonians, but I think :itsgood:

)

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edit: Changed "David" to "Daniel," b/c obviously we're talking about Daniel here. oops.