Where is Magog, Meshech and Tubal?

[El Gallo]

Where is Magog, Meshech and Tubal?
I was not entirely surprised to see that one of my most recent articles, Does Psalm 83 Describe the New Middle-East War? has led to a quite a bit of controversy on a couple of prophecy-related blogs. It appears as though the gist of the disagreement revolves around two things: (1) A map I included in my article of the invading nations of Ezekiel 38 & 39’s oracle often referred to as the Battle of Gog of Magog, wherein I located Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah all in Asia Minor or modern day Turkey, and (2) my identification of the lands controlled by Assyria during the reign of King David, and the ministry of Asaph. It seems these two points have raised the ire of some fellow students of the Bible. Thus, very briefly, I’d like to address these two issues.
First, below is my map detailing the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 & 39’s oracle concerning the Battle of Gog of Magog:

Now below is a partial collection of maps from various Bible Atlases, as well as other scholarly reference works from which I arrive at my conclusions. The Atlases which represent the most up-to-date scholarship are included first and the slightly older Atlases follow. Note that the author of the critical blog post mentioned above places Magog, Meshech and Tubal all in Russia or Georgia, all well outside and north of modern day Turkey.
http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=2545#more-2545

[kirthril]

this is what i also have a hard time figuring out. Why do people think those 2 cities are cities in Russia, when if you look at a ancient map of turkey, you literally see MESHECH and TUBAL!!??? Also i believe at one point in time, Magog was a region in central/south central Turkey. Gog is the prince of this region/cities. So therefore Gog is a Turkish leader.

Russia?? that stretch requires such an imagination in order to completely ignore whats right on a map.

In fact, Mr Gallo. Did you notice that on one of those maps Meshech is either modern day Ankara, the capital of turkey, or is situated very close to the Ankara? hmm....

Also the wars of gog/magog as well as the other regional battles are all about Israel defeating the muslims. Every nation mentioned is muslim. Even sudan, which i find simply amazing, just split into a muslim north, christian south, so now even sudan fits perfectly. Russia is nowhere close to being muslim, nor do they have any ancient history with israel that needs settling. Just because Russia is a military ally, doesnt mean they will participate in the invasion. China, North korea are persian allies as well.

[El Gallo]

No argument here. I have often said that, logistically, a major military expedition from Russia into Israel is possible, but highly unlikely, given the state of the Russian military. Some might point out that Hitler did it, but he did it from a base in Italy and Greece, and before modern air power and missiles made long overland movements like that even less likely. Hitler also had air and sea dominance at the time. Russia does not.

As to those who insist the "Kings of the East" are Chinese, I say "Look at the map, and study military logistics." Remember, those kings are supposed to move 200 million people to attack Jerusalem. That is two thirds of the entire U.S. or EU population! Equipping, marching, feeding, clothing, etc 200 million across the Hindu Kush, India, the Middle East, and to Jerusalem, is simply not possible.

The only other reference to "Kings of the East" in the Bible refers to the . . . Persian areas (as in Magi). Already Islamists have called for overwhelming Israel with mass invasions by the people of the Middle East. You could move 200 million people -- many from as far away as Iran -- in just a couple of weeks if the demonically-inspired fervor were there. You are talking from dozens of miles to a few hundred --not a few thousand like with China.

Moreover, you need the motivation. What could possibly motivate the entire Chinese nation to even think about such a march? But with Islam, being the exact opposite of Christianity, and by their Koran sworn to eradicate all Jews and Christians, the latent fervor is already there. With demonic influence rampant at the time leading up to the final battle, such a furious rally comports exactly with everything we know of the "days of rage" in the "Arab and Persian street."

What could Israel do? Think about an Israeli commander confronted with untold thousands of unarmed men, women, and children, just marching in legions. A test run was done out of Syria into Golan a couple of years back. There were not enough to overwhelm the Israeli forces, but ethically it was still hard for the Israeli commanders. The barb wire and a few casualties stopped them. But if it was millions?

[1whowaits]

Much depends on how events unfold and in what order. Scripture associates certain nations together in Ezek 38-39, but not the nations immediately surrounding Israel, including Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, which are listed together in other passages. It appears that Isa 17, Amos 1, Jer 49 and Ps 83 occur prior to Ezek 38 and 39.

If Assad attacks Israel with WMD or if Israel attack Iran and Iran responds with it proxies in Lebanon and Syria, Isa 17 will likely be fulfilled. What would be the aftermath of Isa 17? What alliances would form if several hundred thousand muslims and Israelis died? What alliances would form if the price of oil skyrocketed, if the world economies collapsed, what would be the outcome? (I will plunder.. loot..the people...rich in livestock and goods...)

From what we see now, it appears likely that Russia will side with Syria and Iran. If thousands are killed in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza, who will Lybia, Ethiopia, Iran and Turkey align with? Who will be the dominant power in an alliance between Russia and the remaining muslim nations? Who will then be the ruler of Meshech and Tubal? If it means the destruction of Israel (and the US), will the muslim nations follow Russia considering their nuclear power?

Magog was nomadic, at one period of time they were located in Turkey, at another later time they were said to be in southern Russia and were referred to as the Sythcians. Which location of Magog is Ezek 38 referring to and at which time?

[Exit40]

Magog was nomadic, at one period of time they were located in Turkey, at another later time they were said to be in southern Russia and were referred to as the Sythcians. Which location of Magog is Ezek 38 referring to and at which time?

Hi 1WW. There is no research available that states Magog was nomadic. However, the Scthyians definitely were. Evidence has been found of them as far east as the Wall of China, as far north as the Volga, and who knows for sure to the west. These people were blonde haired, blue eyed/ green eyed, red haired generally with mixed races included. They were excellent horsemen and probably the first to domesticate the horse, were excellent archers, and wielded battle axes. Generally they were considered to be barbarians of the north in early times. Nowadays it seems many claim them as their heritage, Swedes, Finns, Irish, even the Cherokee Indians. Magog is generally thought to have settled in the south Caucus to the north Black sea region. From Eze 38 the 'north quarters' are actually the sides or flanks, even to the extreme, of the land of Magog, therefore anyone to their east and west would be considered in this company, even to the Cherokee Indians. My understanding of this Scriptural interpretation lends itself to a huge area. In extreme definition it could be considered to be anyone in the region called the 10-40, a planet wide geographical zone between 10 degrees north to 40 degrees north, where the bulk of the earths population resides. However, a close examination of the order in which tribal names are listed in Ezekiel 38, would place Magog between Cappadocia and Media, in east/central Turkey. Taken to the extreme interpretation it could encompass most of the earth.

Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee,

IMO, Ezekiel 38-39 describe one aspect of the latter day invasion of Israel, with the west, south, and east described in other Scripture, all of which covers the time known as Jacob's Trouble.

From what we see now, it appears likely that Russia will side with Syria and Iran.

Well, it didn't appear that way, it was that way. However, today is different from when you posted this. Russia and China are looking for ways to end the violence in Syria, the outcome of international discussions with them yet to be determined, but mutual consent seems to be in favor of booting Assad as a horrific, brutal, tyrant criminal.

If you would look at this as something more than a few verses that now appear conflicting with gog/magog being involved in Armageddon you would realize the Beast is actually the liberal west joined with the conservative muslim east, forming the two legs of Neb's statue. I don't understand how anyone can come to the conclusion that after gog/magog islam is wiped out by God Israel immediately falls for the FP and AC, only to be betrayed 3.5 years later when God specifically and emphatically states....

Eze 39:7-8 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The Lord states He is IN Israel. And how many earthquakes can there be like this one...

Eze 38:19-20 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

And when Our Lord refers to a great upcoming battle at the end of the Millennium He calls it thus...

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

I'm not trying to start our old debate Brother, but it seems to me the numerous consistencies far and above out weigh a few passages we don't understand right now. And we may not, until they are upon us.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

From Joel Richardsons' blog, scroll down to the Feb 18 post...

Where is Magog, Meshech and Tubal?
February 18th, 2012

As an addendum to one of my most recent articles, “Does Psalm 83 Describe the New Middle-East War?” the following post represents the base of support for the two maps included in the article. My first map highlights the invading nations of the Battle of Gog of Magog, wherein I place Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah all in Asia Minor or modern day Turkey. The second map pictures my identification of the lands controlled by Assyria during the reign of King David, and the ministry of Asaph. (Note: This post has been updated.)...

http://www.joelstrumpet.com/

God Bless

David

[1whowaits]

David, i looked at Joel's blog, and it is interesting, the maps from other sources appear to show Meshech moving gradually from Turkey northeastward to the Caucauses. My point being that the people listed in Ezek 38 did migrate, they moved over time. They all started out at Mt Ararat and moved from there. Magog was at one time at Ararat, later in Turkey, later linked to somewhere northeast of there, where is Magog now?

Joel makes the assumption that Ezek refers to the location of magog at the time of Ezek when in reality Ezek is describing a future event involving a future magog. The location of Magog need not be that of the time of Ezek, it could refer to a later time or the current location of magog, where is that?

In Ezek 38 only 1 nation is mentioned, Persia, the rest are the names of people and their descendants. Put is more than Lybia, Cush is more that Sudan, as the maps Joel uses point out. People groups are being referred to not just nations, and Magog, Meschech and Tubal can refer to much more than Turkey.

And as far as Gog-Magog being the same as armageddon, differences in scripture mean something, until the differences can be resolved, scripture is describing 2 different events.

[Exit40]

Hi 1WW. Well, that is my point about the quarters of the north, in your reference to people groups. Of course there was migration and emigration, but these people groups are still by and large in the vicinity of where they are named in Ezekiel.
Consider their native language, which evolved also, but these languages did not become separate until The Lord confused them at the Tower of Babel. They migrated from there into different lands with their new native tongues as people groups. Do you think the French are in their native area today, basically ? Or the Brits ? How far have you moved from the place of your birth ? My genealogy is Swede and German, settled from there in the upper mid west. We migrated to California but even now after some 60 years people can detect an accent in me from my homelands. Oofta ! Plus I look like my ancestors, tall, blue eyed, blonde haired, well OK, I'll call it silver haired. From the definition of quarters in Eze 38 I would have to say my people migrated from the Tower of Babel to other areas, as we all must have. Here is the definition of quarters which explains this...

yĕrekah
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) flank, side, extreme parts, recesses
a) side
b) sides, recesses (dual)

Flanks, sides means to the East and West, even to the extreme parts and recesses of the earth, as I posted earlier. They are still people groups even though separated by many miles. Oh, and Persia is a people group too. Where is Persia ? They had a large empire but they generally came from the area we call Iran today. Iran's modern borders do not define Persia, but the people group appears to fulfill this.

Gog/magog is not a battle, it's an invasion. These peoples described overwhelm Israel, part her land, divide up her spoils, and trample Jerusalem over a process of time. Only after the three frogs or evil spirits are sent out do the kings of the earth and of the whole world gather at the Valley of Jezreel, with the gog forces in the mountains and plains,and the others described in their respective areas of Israel. Israel is trashed, no longer a viable nation of Jews. Then The Lord comes, as the thief in the night to them, all of them, and saves His remnant, the called and chosen.

I have come to the conclusion, right or wrong, the popular sequence of events, that being the separate battles and all the rest of that theory, has come about in order to prove the pre trib rapture. It all must be explained that way in order to fit the pre trib theory, this being the general and popular theory and not meant to offend anyone. I want to repeat this Scripture for the readers here as I believe it is very important to the events, and is God speaking plainly and firmly. I am just going to emphasize a few points....

Eze 39:7-8 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Israel will not fall for the antichrist post gog/magog because God will not let them pollute His Name any more. He is the Holy one IN Israel, here amongst us. Whats left then ? The Millennium.

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

Exit, i think you may be missing my point about people groups, nations have defined borders that may vary slightly, people groups live in areas that vary greatly. In Ezek, Put as a people groups does not refer to 1 nation but Lybia and Algeria as they spread over a larger area than 1 nation. Also Cush refers not only to Sudan but also Ethiopia. Magog, Meschech and Tubal can refer to much more than Turkey and can include the Caucauses and Russia because the people spread out from the area over time.

As far as Israel not polluting God's name, Ezek 36 demonstrates that the 'polluting' is Israel being in captivity and the nations claiming that God could not protect them, it is not a reference to Israel never sinning against God again.

I see the combining of Gog-Magog and armageddon into the same event even though there are significant diferences as a well meaning attempt to simplify what is actually a bit more complicated. The Gog-Magog=armageddon view focuses on the next move as if it is the last move when in reality there are many more events beyond Gog-Magog. Ezek describes a Gog-Magog as an event localized to Israel (on the mountains of Israel), while armageddon involves all the nations of the world, all the dark forces of the spirit world and the direct physical intervention and appearance of God Himself, 2 totally different events.

[Exit40]

Hi 1WW. I get your point, and I agree. Migration and emigration have dispersed the peoples across the lands, even possibly planet wide. Which goes to my point of the gathering at Armageddon coming from the kings of the earth and thier peoples. The two are part of the one whole, with gog/magog being the invasion and desolation of Israel, and Armageddon being the final part of this same invasion. No battles with Israel are recorded with these two, as it is The Lord who roars from Zion who eliminates these enemies. This is confirmed by The Lord's statement of Him being the Holy One IN Israel. He must have returned at this point in order to actually BE IN Israel, unless there are two comings and He leaves after the first one for a space. Your series of posts in another thread brings up that point, that Israel after gog does in fact pollute His Name, and so the final invasion of Armageddon. That actually has merit, if there is a greater space between than seven years, like maybe a few generations. However, I don't see that fully supported by Scripture yet. Got to run for a while, busy day today.

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

Exit, as far as people groups, i was thinking more along the lines of the Kurds. The Kurds are in several nations, from Turkey, to Iraq, into the 'stans', they are in more than 1 nation. By using the names of people groups rather than nations, the reference to Gog in Ezek could be be pointing to a larger area than Turkey, like Russia and the 'stans'.

As far as God being 'in' Israel, when the temple existed in Israel, it was stated that God was in Israel. God was still in heaven but He sent a 'presence', called the 'shekinah glory' to the temple. After Gog it appears likely that Israel rebuilds the temple, the plan for a future temple is described in Ezek 40. If Israel returns to the OT ways and rebuilds the temple, it could be said that God is 'in' Israel, as He was in the OT.

And profaning or polluting the Lord's name by Israel has nothing to do with Israel accepting the AC, as Ezek 36 demonstrates- 'wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, 'These are the Lord's people, and yet they had to leave his land.'

Israel can realize that God is the Lord and rebuild the temple after Gog, and 3.5 years later some can accept the AC, not all will fall but some may, which is consistent with the behavior of Israel in the past.

[Exit40]

Hi 1WW. Re: Kurds/people groups, I agree completely, and this in fact has been my point about Eze 38:6 which includes the phrases 'all his bands', 'the north quarters', and 'many people with thee'. The north quarters means the flanks or sides of a place, which means to the east and west, even to the extremes of the earth in those directions. Yes, todays borders are just that, and don't define these people groups exclusively. Yet they do encompass parts of the area because certain peoples have remained in the general areas described.

I believe the Temple to be built will be in the Millennium, although this does not mean there will not be an altar for sacrifices. If there is an actual Temple built it will be an abomination to God, as Christ has made His people a Holy Temple. No Temple of rock and stone will suffice for Him any more, therfore He will not Grace it with His presence, the Shekinah Glory. However, the heathen will behold His Glory....

Eze 39:21 ¶ And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

Eze 36 will have become irrelevant once the Jews are regathered to their land, again. Once The Lord has destroyed the invaders that day will become as important as the day they were delivered from Egypt...

Eze 39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury [them]; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

The reasons for Israels treatment will be well known, even amongst the heathen.

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

After they have borne their shame and trespass the Lord gathers them again, after which....

Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I [am] the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Sounds quite a bit like this, doesn't it ?

Zec 12:9-10 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

How Glorious it will be for Israel in that day.

God Bless You

David